Re: Photoshop in Linux WAS [SLUG] Newbie -when is next slug meet?
Dave Airlie wrote: well it's a fairly basic reaction at work, the first time you learn how to do something you don't know how to do already then it is interesting, now switching to another app and trying to do the same things just doesn't seem like the same sort of learning as you already know how to do that so it must be app that is getting in your way... so you blame the app... I've also heard that gimp becomes a lot more obvious if you use a touchpad/stylus thing... Dave. I find people don't learn how to do things they learn what button to push, so that any change from application version to OS annoys them. If they learn t how and why then they might have more chance and not need to as about the next button Jeff -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: Photoshop in Linux WAS [SLUG] Newbie -when is next slug meet?
Depends whether the app is a big part of your work/interest or just incidental. If a big part you need to have an indepth understanding and it's worth spending time developing that. If not, to be productive you need the quickest most moronic solution to the problem without caring how/why it works. An analogy is cars - you put the petrol in the hole at the back right side and the car goes. A professional driver would be interested in the whole fuel flow system in case it stopped working. In this case I had to change an email address, and I very seldom do graphics, and have no interest in them. The .png should have taken 5 minutes to replace. Kolourpaint met this requirement, there's a single screen with a big fat Transparency button on the bottom left, so I pressed it. Perhaps apps with heavy-duty functionality need 2 uis - One for moron mode with perhaps a reduced feature set (what type of background would you like today ?), but geared towards push this button to..., and another for the serious user who can justify the time investment to fully utilize the app. You can't keep blaming the user for being too lazy to learn an app, this argument was lost years ago. cheers Rod On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 08:00 +1100, Jeff Allison wrote: Dave Airlie wrote: well it's a fairly basic reaction at work, the first time you learn how to do something you don't know how to do already then it is interesting, now switching to another app and trying to do the same things just doesn't seem like the same sort of learning as you already know how to do that so it must be app that is getting in your way... so you blame the app... I've also heard that gimp becomes a lot more obvious if you use a touchpad/stylus thing... Dave. I find people don't learn how to do things they learn what button to push, so that any change from application version to OS annoys them. If they learn t how and why then they might have more chance and not need to as about the next button Jeff -- --- Brought to you by a penguin, a gnu and a camel -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: Photoshop in Linux WAS [SLUG] Newbie -when is next slug meet?
I spent 10 years learning photoshop, and it took me an annoying one month to get the hang of GIMP. I kept expecting it to work EXACTLY the same as photoshop. the most frustrating design flaw of photoshop is that you cant really right click on things. everything is a right click away in gimp and have the menu now on the windows is a little annoying and too photoshop like for my liking. having said that i love enlightenment because it is free of annoying garbage filling sides of your screen, such as docks, and task bars and whatever names people can come up with. ahh to just left right and middle click on things. the bliss. having said that i run windows, macosx, linux, freebsd and openbsd. i would have to say macosx is by far the better interface over windows. i never found macos very confusing, but my OS roots are in msdos. gimp does need to get its head in the game in the color department. design people love to have their colors spot on. however, its not like kinkos has ever actually produced the color i wanted. we always went back and spend $16/h on their wretchid machines tinkering with colors to get them to look 'closer' to what we wanted. however lets not get into printing solutions... This thread made me wonder: If people were brought up on Gnu/Linux the way most people are brought up on Windows, would they then find linux really easy, and Windows counter-intuitive and confusing? Is it simply what you learn first that defines what you find easy? Dean -- WWW: http://dean.bong.com.au LAN: http://www.bong.com.au EMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 16867613 -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: Photoshop in Linux WAS [SLUG] Newbie -when is next slug meet?
Rod Butcher wrote: Depends whether the app is a big part of your work/interest or just incidental. If a big part you need to have an indepth understanding and it's worth spending time developing that. If not, to be productive you need the quickest most moronic solution to the problem without caring how/why it works. An analogy is cars - you put the petrol in the hole at the back right side and the car goes. A professional driver would be interested in the whole fuel flow system in case it stopped working. In this case I had to change an email address, and I very seldom do graphics, and have no interest in them. The .png should have taken 5 minutes to replace. Kolourpaint met this requirement, there's a single screen with a big fat Transparency button on the bottom left, so I pressed it. Perhaps apps with heavy-duty functionality need 2 uis - One for moron mode with perhaps a reduced feature set (what type of background would you like today ?), but geared towards push this button to..., and another for the serious user who can justify the time investment to fully utilize the app. You can't keep blaming the user for being too lazy to learn an app, this argument was lost years ago. On the other hand the GIMP is not really intended for the simple jobs that the very casual user would need. It is a horses for courses situation. In other words, you don't need a rotary hoe to cultivate your pot plants. Kolourpaint is adequate for most uses, but if you wish to remove those wrinkles from your photo, improve your hairline or get rid of that double chin, it wont cut it. So as I said before, the GIMP is a fairly easy to use (once you get to understand how it works) heavy duty tool which fits into the same area as Photoshop and was never intended for the casual user. Stay well and happy Heracles -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: Photoshop in Linux WAS [SLUG] Newbie -when is next slug meet?
On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 06:40:45PM +1100, Craige McWhirter wrote: The difference in configurations and layouts between 95/98/xp/NT/2000/2003 is incredibly bloody annoying. If I had one constructive thing to say to Microsoft it would be *STOP MOVING SHIT!* especially as I'm dealing with all those listed OS's :) Stuff moves around between versions on Linux systems as well. Upgrading Postgresql is an example that leaps to mind. Why do you find the UI revisions in the Windows operating systems more frustrating? As for myself, my impressions have been that I have a lot of difficulty getting my work done on Windows machines, but I have a lot of trouble explaining to others how to do things on Linux machines. I've got gripes about particular issues on both systems, but I might rant about that on slug-chat rather than wasting everyone's time here. James. -- Now, there are no problems only opportunities. However, this seemed to be an insurmountable opportunity. - http://www.surfare.net/~toolman/temp/diagram.html -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: Photoshop in Linux WAS [SLUG] Newbie -when is next slug meet?
On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 19:05 +1100, James Gregory wrote: On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 06:40:45PM +1100, Craige McWhirter wrote: The difference in configurations and layouts between 95/98/xp/NT/2000/2003 is incredibly bloody annoying. If I had one constructive thing to say to Microsoft it would be *STOP MOVING SHIT!* especially as I'm dealing with all those listed OS's :) Stuff moves around between versions on Linux systems as well. Upgrading Postgresql is an example that leaps to mind. Why do you find the UI revisions in the Windows operating systems more frustrating? Not in Debian it didn't. In Debian I can't think of any time my menus or config files have moved. They *may* have, I've just either never encountered it or was never frustrated by it. Can anyone confirm Debian config files or menu movements between versions? -- Australian people have been told things only to be disappointed after an election ... I want to change that. I want to change it because I think it is important to the future of our country that we rebuild a sense of trust and confidence in words given and commitments made by our political leaders. --More Irony by John Howard (1996 Election Policy Speech) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: Photoshop in Linux WAS [SLUG] Newbie -when is next slug meet?
On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 06:03:35PM +1100, David wrote: On Tue, 30 Nov 2004, Craige McWhirter wrote: On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 20:48 +1100, Rod Butcher wrote: Final straw was trying to set transparent background. I was presented with techno-gobbledegook. File - New - Fill Type: Transparent or in an existing image: Layer - New Layer - Layer Fill Type: Transparent I spent 10 years learning photoshop, and it took me an annoying one month to get the hang of GIMP. I kept expecting it to work EXACTLY the same as photoshop. This thread made me wonder: If people were brought up on Gnu/Linux the way most people are brought up on Windows, would they then find linux really easy, and Windows counter-intuitive and confusing? Is it simply what you learn first that defines what you find easy? I vote a resounding 'yes' on that one. Mac people say that Windows sucks, Windows people say Macs and Linux sucks, and I say Windows is a PITA and Mac OS X is not easy to use. Whatever people seem to have a chunk of experience with first more or less defines what they think is the best interface. - Matt -- With enough people around there's a probability ~=1 that one of them is an MCSE and will give you the wrong answer to your problem. -- Toni Lassila, in the Monastery signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: Photoshop in Linux WAS [SLUG] Newbie -when is next slug meet?
This thread made me wonder: If people were brought up on Gnu/Linux the way most people are brought up on Windows, would they then find linux really easy, and Windows counter-intuitive and confusing? Is it simply what you learn first that defines what you find easy? well it's a fairly basic reaction at work, the first time you learn how to do something you don't know how to do already then it is interesting, now switching to another app and trying to do the same things just doesn't seem like the same sort of learning as you already know how to do that so it must be app that is getting in your way... so you blame the app... I've also heard that gimp becomes a lot more obvious if you use a touchpad/stylus thing... Dave. -- David Airlie, Software Engineer http://www.skynet.ie/~airlied / airlied at skynet.ie pam_smb / Linux DECstation / Linux VAX / ILUG person -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: Photoshop in Linux WAS [SLUG] Newbie -when is next slug meet?
Whatever people seem to have a chunk of experience with first more or less defines what they think is the best interface. I agree, hadn't thought of that.. I cut my teeth on Waterloo script on mainframes, and struggled to adjust to M$Word's graphical wysywig idea - I still feel comfortable with markup languages like HTML. But meanwhile back at the farm, my .png image's background remains resolutely opaque. It consists of black text on white bg. As instructed I selected layer, new layer, transparent. No dice. This can't be the full story. How/where do I tell it that listen, Gimp, whenever you see white space in this here image, I want it to be transparent. ? From memory, in PS I specified an index value for transparency. cheers Rod On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 20:22 +1100, Matthew Palmer wrote: On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 06:03:35PM +1100, David wrote: On Tue, 30 Nov 2004, Craige McWhirter wrote: On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 20:48 +1100, Rod Butcher wrote: Final straw was trying to set transparent background. I was presented with techno-gobbledegook. File - New - Fill Type: Transparent or in an existing image: Layer - New Layer - Layer Fill Type: Transparent I spent 10 years learning photoshop, and it took me an annoying one month to get the hang of GIMP. I kept expecting it to work EXACTLY the same as photoshop. This thread made me wonder: If people were brought up on Gnu/Linux the way most people are brought up on Windows, would they then find linux really easy, and Windows counter-intuitive and confusing? Is it simply what you learn first that defines what you find easy? I vote a resounding 'yes' on that one. Mac people say that Windows sucks, Windows people say Macs and Linux sucks, and I say Windows is a PITA and Mac OS X is not easy to use. Whatever people seem to have a chunk of experience with first more or less defines what they think is the best interface. - Matt -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html -- --- Brought to you by a penguin, a gnu and a camel -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: Photoshop in Linux WAS [SLUG] Newbie -when is next slug meet?
On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 11:26:23PM +1100, Rod Butcher wrote: Whatever people seem to have a chunk of experience with first more or less defines what they think is the best interface. I agree, hadn't thought of that.. I cut my teeth on Waterloo script on mainframes, and struggled to adjust to M$Word's graphical wysywig idea - I still feel comfortable with markup languages like HTML. But meanwhile back at the farm, my .png image's background remains resolutely opaque. It consists of black text on white bg. As instructed I selected layer, new layer, transparent. No dice. This can't be the full story. How/where do I tell it that listen, Gimp, whenever you see white space in this here image, I want it to be transparent. ? From memory, in PS I specified an index value for transparency. In general PNG doesn't work that way. It can do indexed transparency, but the advantage of using it comes in the fact that it has an alpha layer. The best way to use it is as someone else here pointed out: Make a new image with a transparent background and just don't put stuff where you want it transparent. IE has some issues displaying PNGs with alpha layers, but there are workarounds. Can we see some of these images with the resolutely opaque backgrounds? James. -- Now, there are no problems only opportunities. However, this seemed to be an insurmountable opportunity. - http://www.surfare.net/~toolman/temp/diagram.html -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: Photoshop in Linux WAS [SLUG] Newbie -when is next slug meet?
i would have to agree, i find gimp to be vastly superior. im sure there are some features photoshop has over gimp but like all applications 90% of users only use 10% of features. generally i have found adobe products to just work 'differently' most applications seem to follow a certain logic, but adobe doesnt. this could be why people spend so much money learning to use them although i do like illustrator, the Free clones are coming along ok - but still not at the level gimp is. anyone with heaps of vector math knowledge care to write a free alternative to illustrator ;) Dean Heracles wrote: Rod Butcher wrote: Hi Patrick, can you spare a minute to give me a brief overview of what's required to achieve this ? I can't stand Gimp, and would love to be able to run Photoshop (I have V 4). Amazing, I have used Photoshop V4.5, 6 and 7 but find the latest version of the GIMP much better and definitely easier to use. Oh well, each to his own I guess. Stay well and happy Heracles -- WWW: http://dean.bong.com.au LAN: http://www.bong.com.au EMAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 16867613 -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: Photoshop in Linux WAS [SLUG] Newbie -when is next slug meet?
Final straw was trying to set transparent background. I was presented with techno-gobbledegook. I could do this sort of thing with PS 4 with no training. I need this for website graphics. M$ got rich by assuming users are idiots and building apps and install routines that idiots could follow (harking back to John Gibbons - I feel that the free / Opensource industry should cease development for 12 mths and concentrate on user-friendliness - that includes documentation, most of which states the facts but helps little.). When it comes to graphics I'm in that idiotcategory. Interesting that PS, though a professional tool, felt intuitive to me. my .05 c Rod On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 20:31 +1100, Dean Hamstead wrote: i would have to agree, i find gimp to be vastly superior. im sure there are some features photoshop has over gimp but like all applications 90% of users only use 10% of features. generally i have found adobe products to just work 'differently' most applications seem to follow a certain logic, but adobe doesnt. this could be why people spend so much money learning to use them although i do like illustrator, the Free clones are coming along ok - but still not at the level gimp is. anyone with heaps of vector math knowledge care to write a free alternative to illustrator ;) Dean Heracles wrote: Rod Butcher wrote: Hi Patrick, can you spare a minute to give me a brief overview of what's required to achieve this ? I can't stand Gimp, and would love to be able to run Photoshop (I have V 4). Amazing, I have used Photoshop V4.5, 6 and 7 but find the latest version of the GIMP much better and definitely easier to use. Oh well, each to his own I guess. Stay well and happy Heracles -- --- Brought to you by a penguin, a gnu and a camel -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: Photoshop in Linux WAS [SLUG] Newbie -when is next slug meet?
On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 20:48 +1100, Rod Butcher wrote: Final straw was trying to set transparent background. I was presented with techno-gobbledegook. File - New - Fill Type: Transparent or in an existing image: Layer - New Layer - Layer Fill Type: Transparent Doesn't come a whole lot more straight forward than that. To make the transparent layer your background in an existing image takes the same layer manipulation skills as Photoshop ie: raise layer, lower layer etc, all two clicks away. -- We have no intention of introducing a loans scheme with a real or indeed any other rate of interest. --John Howard (in Parliament, 18 October 1999) The Truth: Debts accrued under FEE-HELP will be indexed to the consumer price index . . . A loan fee of 20 per cent will apply to FEE-HELP loans for undergraduate courses of study only. --Higher Education Loan Programme (Department of Education, Science and Training Update, March 2004) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: Photoshop in Linux WAS [SLUG] Newbie -when is next slug meet?
On Tue, 30 Nov 2004, Craige McWhirter wrote: On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 20:48 +1100, Rod Butcher wrote: Final straw was trying to set transparent background. I was presented with techno-gobbledegook. File - New - Fill Type: Transparent or in an existing image: Layer - New Layer - Layer Fill Type: Transparent I spent 10 years learning photoshop, and it took me an annoying one month to get the hang of GIMP. I kept expecting it to work EXACTLY the same as photoshop. This thread made me wonder: If people were brought up on Gnu/Linux the way most people are brought up on Windows, would they then find linux really easy, and Windows counter-intuitive and confusing? Is it simply what you learn first that defines what you find easy? -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: Photoshop in Linux WAS [SLUG] Newbie -when is next slug meet?
Hi all David wrote: I spent 10 years learning photoshop, and it took me an annoying one month to get the hang of GIMP. I kept expecting it to work EXACTLY the same as photoshop. This thread made me wonder: If people were brought up on Gnu/Linux the way most people are brought up on Windows, would they then find linux really easy, and Windows counter-intuitive and confusing? Is it simply what you learn first that defines what you find easy? Yes, that is true to an extent ,according to surveys conducted, people who hadnt used Windows before starting with Linux did not face as much difficulty as those, who had already got exposed to Windows.I dont remember the exact details, but this was qouted in one of the ILUGD(http://www.linux-delhi.org) meets. Regards Shehjar -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
familiarity (was: Re: Photoshop in Linux WAS [SLUG] Newbie -when is next slug meet?)
This one time, at band camp, David wrote: This thread made me wonder: If people were brought up on Gnu/Linux the way most people are brought up on Windows, would they then find linux really easy, and Windows counter-intuitive and confusing? Is it simply what you learn first that defines what you find easy? And the opposite is true; I used to use Windows, but for the last 6 years I've used Linux based operating systesm exclusively. Now I have to relearn everything when I try to use Windows, and it feels foreign and confusing. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: Photoshop in Linux WAS [SLUG] Newbie -when is next slug meet?
On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 18:03 +1100, David wrote: This thread made me wonder: If people were brought up on Gnu/Linux the way most people are brought up on Windows, would they then find linux really easy, and Windows counter-intuitive and confusing? Is it simply what you learn first that defines what you find easy? I've a similar experience as Jamie. My desktop for 10-odd years has been Linux, although I've worked in and supported (and still do) Microsoft environments for that entire period I find the way it's interface operates (leaving the ridiculous OS problems aside) completely infuriating. Then again, I'm also a spoilt Debian-child and am used to having everything at my fingertips in an online world. :) The difference in configurations and layouts between 95/98/xp/NT/2000/2003 is incredibly bloody annoying. If I had one constructive thing to say to Microsoft it would be *STOP MOVING SHIT!* especially as I'm dealing with all those listed OS's :) (going mad removing spyware and virus infections from pre-linux clients) -- Well, we're certainly going to maintain the existing level of funding for labourmarket programs. --John Howard (Address to Youth, Macgregor, 20 February 1996) The Truth: Kerry O'Brien: Now, for all the people on those labour market programs, I would suggest it to them that would have been a pretty core promise and you've broken it. John Howard: Well, it is true that we are not spending as much money on labourmarket programs. --John Howard (ABC 7:30 Report, 21 August 1996) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Photoshop in Linux WAS [SLUG] Newbie -when is next slug meet?
Chris is right. I've got Photoshop running in Crossover. It requires more grunt than if it's run in the other OS (not the fruit you can eat :) but that's a small price to pay (for extra RAM if necessary). It runs well on a P4 with 256M RAM in the 'other', so you need more to run it to the same level under Linux using Codeweaver. That said, it's very easy to set up. Patrick Chris said: I think CodeWeavers Crossover Office might commercially support these. Chris quote(Peter Hardy); -i'm a photographer ( webkeeper) and wondering about image manip apps using Linux-eg. does photoshop and fireworks work on linux? *Some* windows applications work under Linux using a package called WINE (http://winehq.com/). From memory, you will probably have some luck getting Photoshop to work. Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: Photoshop in Linux WAS [SLUG] Newbie -when is next slug meet?
Hi Patrick, can you spare a minute to give me a brief overview of what's required to achieve this ? I can't stand Gimp, and would love to be able to run Photoshop (I have V 4). thanks Rod On Mon, 2004-11-29 at 12:50 +1100, Elliott-Brennan wrote: Chris is right. I've got Photoshop running in Crossover. It requires more grunt than if it's run in the other OS (not the fruit you can eat :) but that's a small price to pay (for extra RAM if necessary). It runs well on a P4 with 256M RAM in the 'other', so you need more to run it to the same level under Linux using Codeweaver. That said, it's very easy to set up. Patrick Chris said: I think CodeWeavers Crossover Office might commercially support these. Chris quote(Peter Hardy); -i'm a photographer ( webkeeper) and wondering about image manip apps using Linux-eg. does photoshop and fireworks work on linux? *Some* windows applications work under Linux using a package called WINE (http://winehq.com/). From memory, you will probably have some luck getting Photoshop to work. Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html -- --- Brought to you by a penguin, a gnu and a camel -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: Photoshop in Linux WAS [SLUG] Newbie -when is next slug meet?
Rod Butcher wrote: Hi Patrick, can you spare a minute to give me a brief overview of what's required to achieve this ? I can't stand Gimp, and would love to be able to run Photoshop (I have V 4). Amazing, I have used Photoshop V4.5, 6 and 7 but find the latest version of the GIMP much better and definitely easier to use. Oh well, each to his own I guess. Stay well and happy Heracles -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
