Re: Re: [RCSE] Re: Rudder Stalls and turns.
The thing I found using one stick is that you can feed in an input that would cut your performance, like a touch of down when you are wanting to give it rudder. The big thing you need to do is find out if two or one stick is better for you for control, I ended up going to two sticks and found that with practice I could fly smoother when the conditions are light. But I also fly with a Stylus and most computer radios will let you have it linked up on the Rud/Ale mix so if I hand the radio to some one I can make it a single stick for them and still keep my method of madness Clarence Jay Hunter wrote: Chris, That is VERY enlightening. I had just discovered I needed my elevator in my turns once I have the ship banked. I think I am going to return my rudder to my right stick. It will make flying it easier. And when I fly the aileron ships I will move it to the left side. Thanks again.. jay On 7/31/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Jay, I have been flying my Photon 1 in the IHLGF for 4 years. I have a Watson tailgroup on it (Spyderfoam/FG) which is close to the type the Photon II has. I use alot of rudder throw and use the rudder for tight thermals, as well as using it for drag breaking and stalling. You have to use the rudder in many ways, in order to get down fast, especially close to the ground. Rudders may not stall themselves but they DO STALL THE PLANE. You can go to the Drela sites and read about how tail surfaces stall. Here are my observation and use. 1) I use ALOT of rudder throw. My desire is to up end the wing ASAP if I want to core a tight thermal. 2) I use Exponential on my Rudder, mainly to create the ability to put in minor changes when first moving the stick, and major throws on the extremes. 3) If I need to use it, especially at high altitudes, I have my dual rates set up to be 40-50% fo my normal throws. I use this when I need to fly smoothly high, as well as letting some others fly the plane. 4) Rudders do stall. However, if you are experincing Rudder stalls from level flight, then your CG is back to far. Basically, you need to increase your glide speed slightly, as you are right at the point where any drag slows the entire wing down and it stalls. Be aware, that your slowest glidespeed may not be your best L/D speed. Often you need to add down elevator to speed the plane up then initiate the turn. 5) When flying rudder/Elevator, you do need to add up elevator in your turns. You will find that once you initiate a bank, only the elevator is required. The rudder is then only used to keep the plane in the bank when required, and level when it attempts to tuck in tighter in the turn. 6) I use rudder as a Spoiler/Brake all the time. There are 2 methods. 7) Method 1: If you oscillate your rudder fast, the plane does not respond, BUT the rudder acts as drag and brakes the airplane. It is like a swing/pendulum/harmonic thing. Try it when you are close to the ground apparoaching for a catch. Basically a rudder drag brake. 8) Method 2: If you move the rudders slowly, you can get a wings oscillation set up. Big Throws make is so you can respond to making the plane turn back fast. Doing this, you can essentially induced a s-turn and after 3 turns, like right, left, right, the wing tips will stall and you can getthe plane to drop 10 feet or so. 9) There are methods to do elevator stalls coming in. You pull upp elevator up to a stall, let the nose drop, then pull up for a stall, but just as it peaks give down to level the plane then pull full up, which essentially mushes the wing in a flying level stall and the plane drops vertically while still flying. All these methods do require practice. Bill Watson often said that for R/E ships 1 ft = 1 sec of flight time, so you can basically gauge how high you need to be to make a time. 10) While most now do not do it, I like to fly a gyro on a poly ship. I tune down the gyro so that the rudder does ge affected when thermaling. Try to tune it down as low as possible as required for the throw, but so it does not affect thermal turns. 11) My Rudders are fairly thick, and the LEs blunted. the Drella sites will talk about airfoil deadband, as well as stalling. 12) As for the Rudder stick, are you right handed or left handed. As a right handed person I have flown with R/E on the right stick. This is like most. I have been flying R/E HLGs for a very long time and basically those who fly aileron ships never realize the handicaps R/E ships have. Sometimes I ask a aileron flyer to try a R/E ship because it does require a blend of R/E that shows a aileron pilot the
[RCSE] Further 2-Meters thoughts
I don't think that 2-meter is in jeopardy, though I would like to make a few points to reinforce it's importance in the overall soaring world: 1. This hobby needs more youth(s) to continue to grow. 2. Youths (and many new soarers) don't have the experience or the money to fly big ships. 3. Soaring is and will remain a hobby where competition is part and parcel of the experience. 4. 2-meter at the NATS allows those new fliers to compete at a national level in an event that they alone (and not their plane) are the determining factor. Ed Wilson achieved something special this year: he mentored a young dude with a small ship (but big dreams) with the intention of taking him to the NATS. It's a great goal, and one that we think will keep Lee and others like him in this hobby. 2-meter at the NATS is the perfect event to show new fliers what soaring is all about. Since we already have, and will hopefully continue to have, a 2-meter competition -- all we need is more Lee's, right? :) -- ben wilson louisville area soaring society [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://thelocust.org/ RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Further 2-Meters thoughts
can I get an AMEN! I had the privilege to sign Lee's LSF paperwork for a landing, he is a great kid with a great group supporting him. It can never be said enough WELL DONE Ed and GUYS!! Harry -Original Message- From: Ben Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 9:24 AM To: Soaring; LASS Soaring List Subject: [RCSE] Further 2-Meters thoughts I don't think that 2-meter is in jeopardy, though I would like to make a few points to reinforce it's importance in the overall soaring world: 1. This hobby needs more youth(s) to continue to grow. 2. Youths (and many new soarers) don't have the experience or the money to fly big ships. 3. Soaring is and will remain a hobby where competition is part and parcel of the experience. 4. 2-meter at the NATS allows those new fliers to compete at a national level in an event that they alone (and not their plane) are the determining factor. Ed Wilson achieved something special this year: he mentored a young dude with a small ship (but big dreams) with the intention of taking him to the NATS. It's a great goal, and one that we think will keep Lee and others like him in this hobby. 2-meter at the NATS is the perfect event to show new fliers what soaring is all about. Since we already have, and will hopefully continue to have, a 2-meter competition -- all we need is more Lee's, right? :) -- ben wilson louisville area soaring society [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://thelocust.org/ RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Further 2-Meters thoughts
all we need is more Lee's, right? I have found to get more Lees you need more Ed's. Great Job Ed! John D. Frugé Webmaster MRCC www.modestorcclub.com AMA #695632 - Original Message - From: Harry DeBoer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Ben Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Soaring Soaring@airage.com; LASS Soaring List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 6:33 AM Subject: RE: [RCSE] Further 2-Meters thoughts can I get an AMEN! I had the privilege to sign Lee's LSF paperwork for a landing, he is a great kid with a great group supporting him. It can never be said enough WELL DONE Ed and GUYS!! Harry -Original Message- From: Ben Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 9:24 AM To: Soaring; LASS Soaring List Subject: [RCSE] Further 2-Meters thoughts I don't think that 2-meter is in jeopardy, though I would like to make a few points to reinforce it's importance in the overall soaring world: 1. This hobby needs more youth(s) to continue to grow. 2. Youths (and many new soarers) don't have the experience or the money to fly big ships. 3. Soaring is and will remain a hobby where competition is part and parcel of the experience. 4. 2-meter at the NATS allows those new fliers to compete at a national level in an event that they alone (and not their plane) are the determining factor. Ed Wilson achieved something special this year: he mentored a young dude with a small ship (but big dreams) with the intention of taking him to the NATS. It's a great goal, and one that we think will keep Lee and others like him in this hobby. 2-meter at the NATS is the perfect event to show new fliers what soaring is all about. Since we already have, and will hopefully continue to have, a 2-meter competition -- all we need is more Lee's, right? :) -- ben wilson louisville area soaring society [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://thelocust.org/ RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Further 2-Meters thoughts
I should note that the simple act of putting an eye-catching flyer in the window of our local hobby shop drew Lee and his family to one of our events.. and the rest is history. Every little bit helps. ;) John D Frugé wrote: all we need is more Lee's, right? I have found to get more Lees you need more Ed's. Great Job Ed! John D. Frugé Webmaster MRCC www.modestorcclub.com AMA #695632 -- ben wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://thelocust.org/ RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Further 2-Meters thoughts
Now you have to hope he never discovers girls, cars or sports. We have done the same thing several times and eventually the find something else. One can only hope they will return. Doug Barry and I had this discussion at the banquet. We have a family with three very eager young guy's. The oldest just hit the trophies at our last contest. Poor kid was in shock when we called his name! LOL Harry -Original Message- From: Ben Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 9:45 AM To: Soaring Subject: Re: [RCSE] Further 2-Meters thoughts I should note that the simple act of putting an eye-catching flyer in the window of our local hobby shop drew Lee and his family to one of our events.. and the rest is history. Every little bit helps. ;) John D Frugé wrote: all we need is more Lee's, right? I have found to get more Lees you need more Ed's. Great Job Ed! John D. Frugé Webmaster MRCC www.modestorcclub.com AMA #695632 -- ben wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://thelocust.org/ RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] 2-Meters thoughts
A prominent Midwest sailplane flyer contested a 2M only for a full year. He flew it in 2M (obviously) and in unlimited. His words to me were something like this: If you can win with a 2M, you can wing with anything, (meaning and unlimited plane since he doesn't fly DLG.) I'd have to agree with him. 2M's just don't have the performance an unlimited plane has and if you can fly a 2M to its maximum, an unlimited plane is just that much easier. The DLG guys will say the same thing. If you can thermal out with a 60 model, anything larger is easier. Of course that's not true in all cases, but I'm sure I can get an amen from those who have flown DLG when I say if you can thermal out from a 50' launch, a 600' launch is like a 'gimme'. I can't remember the gentlemen's last name (his first name is Lee) and he had kept record of his flights for a year. The 2M times were statistically lower overall than the unlimited times. The chart was published in RCSD many years ago. As far as contests go, I think most people will build a plane to compete in the events that are scheduled. For example, I attend MWSC every year and I didn't have a foamy warbird for that particular class. I'm building one now for next years event. If we have 2M events as part of a 2-3 day contest, people will bring 2M and fly in the event instead of sitting around while everyone else is flying. Maybe we don't want to spend as much on a 2M as an unlimited plane, but good flying 2M can certainly be had for less than $500, not counting the radio and many are less than $250 used. I for one would like to see 2M continue. Unfortunately it now has to compete with DLG, RES and Nostalgia. It's up to contest directors to keep 2M going. George Voss RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] 2 Meter Contest
All this talk of two meter prompts me to send out a reminder for the WMSS 2 Meter Soaring Champoinships. 26th Annual Midwest, 2-Meter RC Soaring Championships August 26 and 27, 2006 - Grand Rapids, MI 2-Meter Championships Awards for 1 to 5 for each day of the contest Two Day Overall Winner Task: Seeded Man-On-Man (MOM) contest. As many rounds of duration and landing as can be done in the time specified. Landing is a 5' tape, 25 points in or out. No re-launches for mid-air collisions in rule 7.2a. Classes: Two Meter Pre-registration is encouraged as we will let you know if your frequency choice is being used. Equipment: Winches with ball bearings and charger assisted, winch retrievers will be used. 250# line, line length 200 meters. All new line and Entry Fee: $10.00 with pre-registration by August 15, 2006, $12 day of the contest. AMA Sanction Contest. For more info go to: http://www.rcsoaring.org/contests/RC_Soaring_contest_2_meter.asp Dennis Hoyle WMSS www.rcsoaring.org
Re: [RCSE] Further 2-Meters thoughts
Ok, lets dispel the cost issue. There is a minor difference in cost for a RES two meter vs RES unlimited. either can be inexpensive or expensive (AVA like) There is a minor diff in cost for a full house 2m vs a full house unlimited. apples to apples. there is a larger diff between a res and anything full house. Competition makes you a better pilot. Competition can be great fun if you understand you will win and lose. Not everyone will be JW's or DP's, get over it and have some fun. THE HOBBY NEEDS MORE YOUTHS!!! Ed Wilson and the rest of the LASS club have done a great thing in supporting Lee. There is a good amount of time and effort being put into that young guy and it doesn't go unnoticed. I think we are all appreciative. Lee may be the next generation of fliers to carry the torch that allows the legacy of soaring to continue... Ben Wilson wrote: I don't think that 2-meter is in jeopardy, though I would like to make a few points to reinforce it's importance in the overall soaring world: 1. This hobby needs more youth(s) to continue to grow. 2. Youths (and many new soarers) don't have the experience or the money to fly big ships. 3. Soaring is and will remain a hobby where competition is part and parcel of the experience. 4. 2-meter at the NATS allows those new fliers to compete at a national level in an event that they alone (and not their plane) are the determining factor. Ed Wilson achieved something special this year: he mentored a young dude with a small ship (but big dreams) with the intention of taking him to the NATS. It's a great goal, and one that we think will keep Lee and others like him in this hobby. 2-meter at the NATS is the perfect event to show new fliers what soaring is all about. Since we already have, and will hopefully continue to have, a 2-meter competition -- all we need is more Lee's, right? :) -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Need Kennedy Supra left wing tip - or both tips
(apologies if this message show up more than once, I'm having trouble posting due to changes in my default email address) I need a Kennedy Supra left wing tip - badly crushed it when wing platform separated from fuselage a couple of weeks before the NATs. Ideally it would be carbon to match the weight of the right, but I am not choosy. I will buy both tips if you are have both available. Violet is my least favorite color choice. For anyone who has broken either a horizontal or vertical stab, I have a 2 sets available. I am flying bagged stabs. Don Barker RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] re: Rudder Stalls and Turns
This note is to add one point to the discussion on rudder-elevator flying. There is a tendency for R/E models to pitch up when a turn is initiated due to gyroscopic precession. The rudder initiates a yaw rate, giving a yaw angle. This angle couples with the wing's dihedral angle to create a rolling moment. The rolling moment acts on the yaw rate and tends to pitch the airplane up due to gyroscopic precession. Most experienced R/E pilots compensate at the beginning of the turn with a little down elevator, but I don't think they know they are doing it. (This is one reason why aileron airplanes feel weird at first to a R/E pilot.) Home experiment: Take the front wheel off your bike. Hold it in front of you so the axle is vertical. Spin the wheel to the left (counterclockwise). Gently attempt to roll the wheel to the left. You will see that it tends to pitch up. The effect on rolling out of the turn is less pronounced because the yaw rate of the turn is reduced by the rolling-out rudder input. That's all for now. Blaine Beron-Rawdon Envision Design San Pedro, CA RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] FIRST EVER ALL ELECTRIC TUG AEROTOW! Sacramento Ca. Sep 17th
FIRST EVER SVSS FALL ALL ELECTRIC TUG AEROTOW! Sacramento Ca. Come and be part of history in the makingHere are the details: Sunday Sept 17 Pilots meeting 9:30am Will will have 3 Electric tow planes, one capable of pulling up 35Lbs sailplanes. Tug channels so far are 29 and 17. Will post others when they are known. COST: $20 NO GAS POWERED TUGS WILL BE ALLOWED You can come fly your Thermal duration, electrics or hand launch gliders on Sat 16th, we will be practice towing after 11 am... GO to the SVSS web site www.svss.org for directions to the SVSS field Call CD Scott Allen 916 989-3706 for more Info and pre-registration And... Yes Scott Is my BrotherCraig Allen LSF 111
Re: [RCSE] re: Rudder Stalls and Turns
From: Blaine Beron-Rawdon [EMAIL PROTECTED] There is a tendency for R/E models to pitch up when a turn is initiated due to gyroscopic precession... = Would it do any good to rake the rudder hinge line forward to counteract this? RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Further 2-Meters thoughts
Jeff, I may be way off base (and I'm sure you all will let me know) but I thing a revival of the one design low cost model contest would do more than anything we are now doing to get new and young pilots into the hobby. Even if it was a Spirit, Vista, or Fling 2M ARF type of model that would be an affordable entry for the new blood. If AMA or LSF would promote the idea of clubs having a once a week or month one design fly/contest it would give a venue for the new flyers. It could also be a real eye opener for the completive fliers. It would promote a leveling of the field to see who is the best pilot and thermal reader with the same basic low cost equipment (no pic's). It would be nice to see who can fly without a voice in the ear telling them where the lift is. John P.S. If anyone in LOFT would like to start a Wednesday night one-design fly let me know. I see where Tower Hobby has several entry-level ARF's that would be an easy and fast way to start. -Original Message- From: Jeff Steifel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 10:45 AM To: Ben Wilson Cc: Soaring; LASS Soaring List Subject: Re: [RCSE] Further 2-Meters thoughts Ok, lets dispel the cost issue. There is a minor difference in cost for a RES two meter vs RES unlimited. either can be inexpensive or expensive (AVA like) There is a minor diff in cost for a full house 2m vs a full house unlimited. apples to apples. there is a larger diff between a res and anything full house. Competition makes you a better pilot. Competition can be great fun if you understand you will win and lose. Not everyone will be JW's or DP's, get over it and have some fun. THE HOBBY NEEDS MORE YOUTHS!!! Ed Wilson and the rest of the LASS club have done a great thing in supporting Lee. There is a good amount of time and effort being put into that young guy and it doesn't go unnoticed. I think we are all appreciative. Lee may be the next generation of fliers to carry the torch that allows the legacy of soaring to continue... Ben Wilson wrote: I don't think that 2-meter is in jeopardy, though I would like to make a few points to reinforce it's importance in the overall soaring world: 1. This hobby needs more youth(s) to continue to grow. 2. Youths (and many new soarers) don't have the experience or the money to fly big ships. 3. Soaring is and will remain a hobby where competition is part and parcel of the experience. 4. 2-meter at the NATS allows those new fliers to compete at a national level in an event that they alone (and not their plane) are the determining factor. Ed Wilson achieved something special this year: he mentored a young dude with a small ship (but big dreams) with the intention of taking him to the NATS. It's a great goal, and one that we think will keep Lee and others like him in this hobby. 2-meter at the NATS is the perfect event to show new fliers what soaring is all about. Since we already have, and will hopefully continue to have, a 2-meter competition -- all we need is more Lee's, right? :) -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Sharon 3.7 Vtail FS
New, never flown, with Multiplex digitals (red ones) throughout. Spotless, blue bottoms, white top. $1400 plus shipping. Matt
[RCSE] Multiplex Evo 9 ch synth FS - $300
Includes charger, additional sticks, original box, instructions. Buyer pays shipping. Matt
RE: [RCSE] Further 2-Meters thoughts
Ed should be congratulated for encouraging Lee. My sermon on Sunday was about encouraging one another, and I put a picture of Ed and Lee at the flightline on the video screen in the sanctuary when I was making a point about encouraging young people to try something new. Dana Harry DeBoer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: can I get an AMEN!I had the privilege to sign Lee's LSF paperwork for a landing, he is a greatkid with a great group supporting him.It can never be said enough WELL DONE Ed and GUYS!!Harry
RE: [RCSE] Further 2-Meters thoughts
I guess we got a BIG AMEN for that one! I do agree Dana, anyone who gives of them selves to help others shouldbe recognized. Is this not what LSF is all about? Harry -Original Message-From: Dana Flemming [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 1:22 PMTo: soaringSubject: RE: [RCSE] Further 2-Meters thoughts Ed should be congratulated for encouraging Lee. My sermon on Sunday was about encouraging one another, and I put a picture of Ed and Lee at the flightline on the video screen in the sanctuary when I was making a point about encouraging young people to try something new. Dana Harry DeBoer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: can I get an AMEN!I had the privilege to sign Lee's LSF paperwork for a landing, he is a greatkid with a great group supporting him.It can never be said enough WELL DONE Ed and GUYS!!Harry
[RCSE] 2M Rambles
Couldn't agree more with many of the comments about 2M (with 1 or 2 minor exceptions). I like this class for a lot of reasons, most of which have been articulated, and have tried quite a few of the kits that are out there. IMHO the best ones were the 2M Super-V, the 2M Duck and the Laser 2M. However, it's probably about time for an update to some of these designs. So a thought or two as grist for the design guys: We tend to think of the 2M class as a small open class ship. So the open class design tendencies are usually used. This is not necessarily a good idea. Because of it's size, a 2M is not going to be able to roam as far or as high as an open class ship - it's simply harder to see at distance. So, like DLG, it's going to be more of a close-in ship. Consequently, it probably should tend to better minimum sink and max L/D rather than having great 'legs' for roaming all over the sky. This tends to drive the design towards lower aspect ratios. Due to the span limit, a high aspect ratio 2M may start to run into Re problems. Carrying more wing area will allow a lower wing loading with modest attention to building techniques. This should also help with the launch as more area would help to carry the tow weight better. The airfoils often used for 2M are not particularly well optimized for this class. If you run X-Foil on a number of the popular 2M sections, they really aren't that great below ~ 80,000. It's probably heretical to say this but the MH32 is not a great 2M TD airfoil. For that matter, neither are the SA or SD sections. Again, a look at those sections in X-Foil will indicate that in the lower Re regime, they become 'draggy' in the middle of the bucket. This compromises their ability to run effectively. So a couple of suggestions; - Look to lower aspect ratio designs. An evaluation discussed in RCSD a few years back suggests the 8 to 11 range is about right. You can't just change AR arbitrarily. You also have to account for the total weight and wing loading change when you tweak AR. When you do that, AR really isn't a huge factor for a 2M in this general range, - Sort through the Drela sections, many of them are much better in the intermediate speed range than any of the sections commonly used for 2M, - If you're going with a V-tail, size the surfaces correctly. Biggest mistake I've seen (and flown!) with some of the euro designs is too small a tail area and an inappropriate V-angle. My impression is that most of these are converted 2M slopers that some distributors wants to sell as TD ships, - Work a bit on keeping the weight in the 30oz range. A ballast box is great for the windy days but it's tough to add lightness. Back to the original list (Super-V, Duck and Laser). They all tend to run with more wing area than some 2M designs. And the tail surfaces (especially for the Super-V) are sized appropriately. A really nice update would be to change out the sections to something like the AG3X series, maybe tweak the AR into the 9'ish range and use current construction techniques to bring the weight down into the 30oz range or less. Sorry for the digression. Back to the cave to cut some wings and try it out. Great NATS. Sorry I couldn't stay for more events. Thanks Marc, Jim and all the CDs, helpers and LSF guys who made it a terrific meet. - Dave R RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Further 2-Meters thoughts
We tried this a while back (with a Gentle Lady). Things were looking up. We had some new members join and a lot of the club members picked up a GL and got her ready to fly. Unfortunately we seemed to have a problem finding a good day to organize the contest/fun fly. We would have a couple of people show up, or it would be too windy, seemed like everything kept getting in our way. We made the rules pretty simple. Pretty much a stock Gentle Lady, with minimal kit bashing allowed. No spoilers (the model could have them, but they were to be taped down for the contest) and we had a minimum and maximum weight. We also allowed ballast as long as it was under the max weight, as well as changing the wing hold down to 2 cross posts rather than the standard GL wing hold down. No composites were allowed other than a small amount of glass to reinforce the wing at the center section. We even got the LHS here to discount the model for club members! I think it's a good idea, and I hope the club here decides to pick it back up again. Depending upon the age of the flyers I think DLG/HLG one design makes a better entry point than a 2M or 3M for a one design contest, unfortunately DLGs are generally more expensive and take more time to setup...but it seems like when I fly my DLG I get a lot more people that are interested vs when I fly something larger off a winch or high start. It seems like there is more interest in DLGs for younger flyers, but the skills needed to set one up and fly it properly are a little more advanced than a Gentle Lady. Jared -Original Message- From: John [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 10:54 AM To: Jeff Steifel; Ben Wilson Cc: Soaring; LOFT Subject: RE: [RCSE] Further 2-Meters thoughts Jeff, I may be way off base (and I'm sure you all will let me know) but I thing a revival of the one design low cost model contest would do more than anything we are now doing to get new and young pilots into the hobby. Even if it was a Spirit, Vista, or Fling 2M ARF type of model that would be an affordable entry for the new blood. If AMA or LSF would promote the idea of clubs having a once a week or month one design fly/contest it would give a venue for the new flyers. It could also be a real eye opener for the completive fliers. It would promote a leveling of the field to see who is the best pilot and thermal reader with the same basic low cost equipment (no pic's). It would be nice to see who can fly without a voice in the ear telling them where the lift is. John P.S. If anyone in LOFT would like to start a Wednesday night one-design fly let me know. I see where Tower Hobby has several entry-level ARF's that would be an easy and fast way to start. -Original Message- From: Jeff Steifel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 10:45 AM To: Ben Wilson Cc: Soaring; LASS Soaring List Subject: Re: [RCSE] Further 2-Meters thoughts Ok, lets dispel the cost issue. There is a minor difference in cost for a RES two meter vs RES unlimited. either can be inexpensive or expensive (AVA like) There is a minor diff in cost for a full house 2m vs a full house unlimited. apples to apples. there is a larger diff between a res and anything full house. Competition makes you a better pilot. Competition can be great fun if you understand you will win and lose. Not everyone will be JW's or DP's, get over it and have some fun. THE HOBBY NEEDS MORE YOUTHS!!! Ed Wilson and the rest of the LASS club have done a great thing in supporting Lee. There is a good amount of time and effort being put into that young guy and it doesn't go unnoticed. I think we are all appreciative. Lee may be the next generation of fliers to carry the torch that allows the legacy of soaring to continue... Ben Wilson wrote: I don't think that 2-meter is in jeopardy, though I would like to make a few points to reinforce it's importance in the overall soaring world: 1. This hobby needs more youth(s) to continue to grow. 2. Youths (and many new soarers) don't have the experience or the money to fly big ships. 3. Soaring is and will remain a hobby where competition is part and parcel of the experience. 4. 2-meter at the NATS allows those new fliers to compete at a national level in an event that they alone (and not their plane) are the determining factor. Ed Wilson achieved something special this year: he mentored a young dude with a small ship (but big dreams) with the intention of taking him to the NATS. It's a great goal, and one that we think will keep Lee and others like him in this hobby. 2-meter at the NATS is the perfect event to show new fliers what soaring is all about. Since we already have, and will hopefully continue to have, a 2-meter competition -- all we need is more Lee's, right? :) -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that
[RCSE] Looking for TD plane
Hi Guys, I have been out of the TD scene for a while concentrating on mostly slope flying but now have the bug for a TD plane. I am interested in NIB or RTF planes. RTF Plane must be in Very Good to Excellent Condition and have quality servos, i.e. JR, Airtronics, MPX, Volz, etc. Let me know what you have and what you asking price is. Please email me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Attach pictures if available. Thanks, Pat McCleave Wichita, KS RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Looking for TD plane
I've got a NIB yellow/red Tragi 705 X-tail with UHM carbon wings, plus I also have the electric fuselage for it (very rare in the US). For details see http://www.f3x.com $1500 shipped anywhere in US. Don -Original Message- From: Pat McCleave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 3:30 PM To: RCSE Subject: [RCSE] Looking for TD plane Hi Guys, I have been out of the TD scene for a while concentrating on mostly slope flying but now have the bug for a TD plane. I am interested in NIB or RTF planes. RTF Plane must be in Very Good to Excellent Condition and have quality servos, i.e. JR, Airtronics, MPX, Volz, etc. Let me know what you have and what you asking price is. Please email me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Attach pictures if available. Thanks, Pat McCleave Wichita, KS RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] 2M Rambles
Dave, What a great post. Thank you. You're right on about the MH32 being a poor choice for a 2M section. I don't like it for open class TD either. Drela has done a good deal of optimization on sections for us, and he's got a pretty good idea of what works in the real world. Definitely a good idea to try some of his thinner sections on a 2M. The key here would be LIGHT!!! I don't particularly like super low A/R 2M's... ala the Duck. Span loading ends up too high, wing loading too low... not a good combo. At least not my personal preference you get a model that doesn't go anywhere... AND comes down quickly... woohoo!!! Your also correct about AUW. My old Lasers used to weigh in around 31 ounces, and they flew quite well (for a 2M). People seem to have gotten complacent about 40 and 45 ounce 2M's. Of course they fly fine... they're just pre-ballasted. Especially when youre only flying against other 40 and 45 ounce models. But remember, a 2M isn't much larger than a HL model. They're what? 25% larger? Who wants to thermal a 30 ounce HL? Or even a 20 ounce HL for that matter? That's tremendously over simplified, there are many other factors here, but you get my point. We can't build our 2M's light enough. Mike L's 2M Aegea weighed in at I think about 25 ounces (before the boom broke), and it was probably the best flying 2M I've ever seen. In the early morning light lift rounds, his was the only model that even recognized lift, as the rest of the field flew right through it and underneath him without even a bobble. V-Tails - still... no. The main problem with a V-Tail is that we all fly differing stability ranges. What I mean here, is that while I may prefer a less stable model, you may prefer a more stable model, and a beginner prefers a ludicrously stable model. Why am I talking about stability and not CG??? .. same thing for this discussion. You can't just oversize the V to be correct in yaw, and expect the model to fly right. It'll be too stable for me, and maybe for you... but perfect for the beginner. When I flew Super V's, I couldn't get the model loose enough. I'd cheat the CG way back, until I was happy with the performance and flight characteristics in pitch, and the model would tuck hard in slow cruise (harder as the speed increases). Not great for a TD model. S... that's an indication that the model is overstabbed or too stable. So, I had to cut the V's down... then all my yaw stability went away. V-tails are a compromise at best. You can play games with the V angle to get it closer, but I've never got one right. They're fine for a one dimensional model - ala a slope racer, cuz you're never hanging the model on the wing. You don't see Drela's design's being V-Tails, do ya? ;-) The design challenges for a 2M are rather complex, and this makes it sorta fun. There are many compromises to be made. A/R vs. Area. Cruise vs. Hang. Cross tail... or... uh cross tail. (I'm not even gonna mention a damn V) I'm going to do a new 2M in the next few months. I'm not just going to focus on the wing, but on the fuse as well. We're seeing gains in F3B with small cross section fuses. I think I can shave some weight, and some drag here as well. I've broken up with multiple women in the last few months... need to do enough models to keep up with the naming process... ;-) Possibly Lil Beeotch - we'll see D __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Electric Tug info
I have received a lot of request for info on the Tugs we will be using for our event so I am posting to the group. Here is info on two of the tugs that will be at our event. At this time I do not have info on the third one.First off this is not a cheap endeavor. Brian Chan is currently building a 1/4 scale Wilga using a monster motor provided by Steve Nue that will turn a 27 inch prop pulling over 100ampsusing 12s4p thunder power batteries. It should have no problem pulling up a 30 pound glider at a cost of around $3,500 or so.My Tug is a Hanger 9 1/4 scale Super Cub ARF( No longer Avalible) that easily pulls up my brothers 20 pound very draggy scale gliders. I'm using an Axi 5330/24 Spinning a 22/12 prop with a Jetti 90 amp controller. Batteries are Thunder Power. I use 3 packs of 3s4p wired in series giving me 8000ma. I do this for several reasons. 1. It is much easier to fit and balance the plane with three packs then one or two. 2. I can easily use the packs in other planes of various sizes so they are not just siting around when we are not aero-towing. But the real advantage is I have 3 Astro Flight chargers, I can charge all three batteries at once at 6 amps. It only takes about an hour to have all three of them ready to go again. So by having two sets of 3 packs... Yep.. 6 batteries total. You can tow all day without interruption with this set up. The only Mods I made to the Super Cubwere using the largest Balloon tires I could find and for safety reason I did the following. Icut the counter balance part of the rudderoff and fixed it in place to prevent thetow line from snagging.I might of gone a little overboard with the tow line release, I installed a HS-6985 HB digital servo with 172oz of torque on a 2 to1 bell-crank system so in affect I have 344oz of pulling power on the pin.I lost my first tug to what I believe was a receiver battery coming loose while doing some acrobatics.So on my latest one I installed a duel 5 cell flight pack system with separate on-off switches and connections to the receiver, and I don't do acrobatics any more :-) I will be happy to answer any questions you might have. Sincerely Craig
Re: [RCSE] 2M Rambles
I noticed a 2M with Drela Derivative airfoils at Sal's site: http://nesail.com/detail.php?productID=5125 Has anyone seen it in person yet? Looks promising. On 8/1/06, Daryl Perkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dave, What a great post. Thank you. You're right on about the MH32 being a poor choice for a 2M section. I don't like it for open class TD either. Drela has done a good deal of optimization on sections for us, and he's got a pretty good idea of what works in the real world. Definitely a good idea to try some of his thinner sections on a 2M. The key here would be LIGHT!!! I don't particularly like super low A/R 2M's... ala the Duck. Span loading ends up too high, wing loading too low... not a good combo. At least not my personal preference… you get a model that doesn't go anywhere... AND comes down quickly... woohoo!!! Your also correct about AUW. My old Lasers used to weigh in around 31 ounces, and they flew quite well (for a 2M). People seem to have gotten complacent about 40 and 45 ounce 2M's. Of course they fly fine... they're just pre-ballasted. Especially when you're only flying against other 40 and 45 ounce models. But remember, a 2M isn't much larger than a HL model. They're what? 25% larger? Who wants to thermal a 30 ounce HL? Or even a 20 ounce HL for that matter? That's tremendously over simplified, there are many other factors here, but you get my point. We can't build our 2M's light enough. Mike L's 2M Aegea weighed in at I think about 25 ounces (before the boom broke), and it was probably the best flying 2M I've ever seen. In the early morning light lift rounds, his was the only model that even recognized lift, as the rest of the field flew right through it and underneath him without even a bobble. V-Tails - still... no. The main problem with a V-Tail is that we all fly differing stability ranges. What I mean here, is that while I may prefer a less stable model, you may prefer a more stable model, and a beginner prefers a ludicrously stable model. Why am I talking about stability and not CG??? .. same thing for this discussion. You can't just oversize the V to be correct in yaw, and expect the model to fly right. It'll be too stable for me, and maybe for you... but perfect for the beginner. When I flew Super V's, I couldn't get the model loose enough. I'd cheat the CG way back, until I was happy with the performance and flight characteristics in pitch, and the model would tuck hard in slow cruise (harder as the speed increases). Not great for a TD model. S... that's an indication that the model is overstabbed or too stable. So, I had to cut the V's down... then all my yaw stability went away. V-tails are a compromise at best. You can play games with the V angle to get it closer, but I've never got one right. They're fine for a one dimensional model - ala a slope racer, cuz you're never hanging the model on the wing. You don't see Drela's design's being V-Tails, do ya? ;-) The design challenges for a 2M are rather complex, and this makes it sorta fun. There are many compromises to be made. A/R vs. Area. Cruise vs. Hang. Cross tail... or... uh cross tail. (I'm not even gonna mention a damn V) I'm going to do a new 2M in the next few months. I'm not just going to focus on the wing, but on the fuse as well. We're seeing gains in F3B with small cross section fuses. I think I can shave some weight, and some drag here as well. I've broken up with multiple women in the last few months... need to do enough models to keep up with the naming process... ;-) Possibly Lil Beeotch - we'll see D __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] 2M Rambles
At last! An interesting discussion. Reminds me of the good old days or RCSE from about 10 years ago. I have a notebook full of posts about stability and control from1995 to1998. Lots more interesting than what happened, or didn't happen, at the latest contest. I had a lot of success flying a low aspect ratio model in 2-meter with the Winglet Spica. It's first contest was in the 1979 LSF Tournament at Lockport, IL. It was the only model I flew in 2-meter contest until I retired it after the 1998 Nats after 20 years of service. In the early years, it had no competition while by 1998 it was no competition. I did complete my Level 5 contest requirements with the Winglet Spica in 1996 with a win in Unlimited and high point for the contest. I had to fly the Spica after damaging my Unlimited model before the start of the contest. I am surprised that nobody has mentioned using winglets for 2-meter models. The Winglet Spica had a 10 ich chord wing with 10 inch high winglets and had the same performance as the same model with 100 inch wing span and almost as good as it had with a 115 inch span wing. There ain't no free lunch and the large winglets had two major disadvantages. Winglets are a one speed device and the winglets are sensitive to wind gusts when landing. The very large winglets and wide chord wing did make the model much easier to see and I never had trouble identifying my model in a thermal with a lot of others. :-) snip I've broken up with multiple women in the last few months... need to do enough models to keep up with the naming process... ;-) Possibly Lil Beeotch - we'll see D snip If I used Daryl's method of naming my models, I wouldn't have many. Tomorrow is my 49th wedding anniversary. Chuck Anderson RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
FW: [LOFT] [RCSE] Further 2-Meters thoughts
With response from Ryan below. -Original Message- From: John [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 5:20 PM To: Ryan Woebkenberg Subject: RE: [LOFT] [RCSE] Further 2-Meters thoughts Ryan, Some good ideas! My only thing is that I would like to use the KISS method and have something low cost and all the same. I am really leaning towards the Fling 2M that Reggie from MIST was flying in the Nats 2M contest and then again in the UNL contest after a malfunction of his unlimited ship. It would be a great excuse for another plane and they have all the replacement parts available (the $s are right). The 2M Fling even made Jim Deck's interesting observations from the 2006 NATS: below. *Cheap fun - Reggie Sewell's 2 Meter entry, a Great Planes' 2M Fling. Reggie was even sorta, kinda, nearly zooming this inexpensive stock ARF and even placed just above Cap'n Jack's orange Duck. Submitted with a tad less respect, Jim Deck I looked over the 2M Fling and talked with Reggie at the Nats and it has peeked my interest in that model for a fun low cost One Design type of contest. Most would not have any problem with the cost and it can be put together in one night. New fliers could have fun and great sticks could try to prove their supremacy on a flat playing field while mentoring the new flyers. Could be great fun, low pressure, and good for the clubs and the sport. John P.S. If LSF or AMA would get behind something like this then maybe discount club prices could be forthcoming. P.S.S is it ok to post this on the RCSE or LOFT? - Yes, feel free to post my thoughts on LOFT or RCSE. I agree that the Fling 2M looks good and ability to get replacement parts if needed would be a very nice feature. These are all good ideas. Whatever we can do to get more people involved. Tonight I am going to give some Cub Scouts some flying time on my CDROM powerd glider. Ryan --- -Original Message- From: Ryan Woebkenberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 12:25 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [LOFT] [RCSE] Further 2-Meters thoughts From: John [EMAIL PROTECTED] P.S. If anyone in LOFT would like to start a Wednesday night one-design fly let me know. I see where Tower Hobby has several entry-level ARF's that would be an easy and fast way to start. I don't know that you would have to quite have a one design contest. You could have instead a Spirit Lady contest. You could say allow 2 meter woodie type ships RE only. This would allow somebody that already has a Spirit, GL, Riser, etc. to enter and the folks that don't to go out and purchase whatever is cheap or fits thier fancy (Spirit ARF, Aspire ARF, GL ARF, the new 2M Fling, something used, etc.). It would be great if for example the hot thumb of the club (say Mike if he were still around) to enter as well and then new pilots could kind of compare themselves to the hot thumbs on very similar equipment. And of course it would be highly encouraged for the hot thumb pilots to help teach, time, help tune other's planes, etc. You could try to police it as best as possible and make sure people understand the spirit of the event. Something like a Sagita 600 or one of Rays Birds *might* be kind of borderline. Definitly an Allegro Lite would be over the line (as in too expensive/modern). Ryan RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Mark Lamos, MD of Hunt Valley, MD
Mark. . your Genie package and plans are on the way, but please ping me so I have your e-mail address in case I want to communicate about something. Keep in touch. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Re: 2M Rambles
Actually, I think, given the AG airfoils, optimum aspect ratio is probably a function of your vision. Given very good vision and very good skill with composites, optimum aspect ratio is probably upwards of 12, as in the original Agea 2M. More realistically, maybe a bit over 11. Wing loading shouldn't be an issue, given enough building skill, as 21 oz. can be acheived. Maybe 25 oz. for all the other really good builders besides Mark. You can add ballast on windy days. Carbon tailbooms and some of the other more sophisticated building tricks keep the weight down. Most of those old airfoils are now obsolete, aren't they? (I saw a new foil, a thicker one, on the yahoo xfoil group, which behaves just like a thinner AG, though) In local contests, I end up competing against Mark. One of these days I want to see what happens if I have a glider almost as good as his is. From: David Register wrote: snip snip Beause of it's size, a 2M is not going to be able to roam as far or as high as an open class ship - it's simply harder to see at distance. So, like DLG, it's going to be more of a close-in ship. Consequently, it probably should tend to better minimum sink and max L/D rather than having great 'legs' for roaming all over the sky. This tends to drive the design towards lower aspect ratios. Due to the span limit, a high aspect ratio 2M may start to run into Re problems. Carrying more wing area will allow a lower wing loading with modest attention to building techniques. This should also help with the launch as more area would help to carry the tow weight better. The airfoils often used for 2M are not particularly well optimized for this class. If you run X-Foil snip So a couple of suggestions; - Look to lower aspect ratio designs. An evaluation discussed in RCSD a few years back suggests the 8 to 11 range is about right.snip - Sort through the Drela sections, many of them are much better in the intermediate speed range than any of the sections commonly used for 2M, snip - Work a bit on keeping the weight in the 30oz range. A ballast box is great for the windy days but it's tough to add lightness. snip - Dave R RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Thermal soaring an aphrodisiac?
OK, so I'm watching two Cooper's hawks cavorting in and around my lilac bushes. One grabs a dead branch from the ground and parades around and the other prances around and opens its wings. I watched this strange activity for about an hour then looked up the habits of Cooper's hawks. Turns out I was watching the second phase of their mating ritual which is preceded by, get this, 30 to 45 minutes of thermal soaring. Hmm... Jim Deck RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Further 2-Meters thoughts
On Aug 1, 2006, at 12:06 PM, Jared wrote: We tried this a while back (with a Gentle Lady). --snip-- We made the rules pretty simple. Pretty much a stock Gentle Lady, with minimal kit bashing allowed. --snip-- I think it's a good idea, and I hope the club here decides to pick it back up again. The idea of building a stick tissue plane could very well put some folks off. You spend a lot of time putting them together and they are so fragile Depending upon the age of the flyers I think DLG/HLG one design makes a better entry point than a 2M or 3M for a one design contest, unfortunately DLGs are generally more expensive and take more time to setup...but it seems like when I fly my DLG I get a lot more people that are interested vs when I fly something larger off a winch or high start. Bingo. A HLG or a DLG doesn't have to be expensive. Check out the several DLGs at Mountainmodels/Laserarts: http://www.mountainmodels.com/index.php? cPath=25_28osCsid=e2df849f0be4d48928e3f45b67878f06: Drela airfoils and foam wings for $70. It seems like there is more interest in DLGs for younger flyers, but the skills needed to set one up and fly it properly are a little more advanced than a Gentle Lady. Standardize a hi-start. With a setup to allow tall launches, even non-thermalling beginners will get serious stick time. I gotta believe that the DLGs on the Mountain Models web page will all out- fly a Gentle Lady. Cheers, Bill --- It is no bad thing to celebrate a simple life.B. Baggins Bill Johns Colton, WA RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] 2M Rambles
If I want a challenge, I fly F3b. 2M is nonexistant on the east coast. As long as they stick 2M in the middle of the week, I'll fly it to pass the time. I'd rather see 2 days of RES than 2M. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] 2M Rambles
Paul Emerson wrote: I noticed a 2M with Drela Derivative airfoils at Sal's site: http://nesail.com/detail.php?productID=5125 Has anyone seen it in person yet? Looks promising. Looks pretty ugly to me. A small fin in front of a huge stab. They should have done it the other way around. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Re: 2M Rambles
Daryl (and list), Thank you for the comments on 2M design. Your input is extremely valuable as both a designer and competitor. The stability issue is well put. Just to clarify aspect ratio a bit, some design work was done 2 years ago that suggests optimal AR for 2M is somewhere between 8 and about 11. The range and boundaries are 'soft' depending on the pilot's preferences. This was done on the basis of a fairly detailed polar analysis which uses UIUC airfoil data or X-Foil results, a modestly detailed description of the planform and some assumptions about parasitic drag and fuselage wetted area. Why such a broad range? Well, once a design is set, decreasing AR increases wing area (and the associated tail volumes) which increases the weight (but reduces the wing loading), increases induced drag, reduces profile drag coefficients a bit due to Reynolds number, etc. etc. It's an interesting interplay but one has to consider that weight is not an arbitrary parameter but is tied to the planform once a general construction method is adopted. The span loading issues that you mentioned are not addressed in this type of analysis. Nor are handling, turning, stability, etc. etc. So there's a lot more to the picture once the general planform parameters are established. Field experience and the pilot's preferences are the deciding factors. The other thing that comes into play (for 2M and smaller) is the flow attachment on the airfoil. The Drela sections are just better designed that way than just about anything that preceded them. You can compare X-Foil with UIUC data for those sections where measurements have been made. The result is generally gratifying. Extending that analysis to the AG sections leads to the observation of separation bubbles in many of the popular sections used for 2M. The bubble generally appears at modest Cl values so the problem is not high drag at high Cl (low speeds) but in the intermediate speeds (cruise). Consequently, airfoil choice for 2M will be particularly sensitive in the mid-speed range (generally higher than max L/D - about the range where you want to scoot to cover ground). At these Cls, induced drag is not really an issue (AR is not terribly important at lower Cl). Profile drag is the big issue and the non-Drela sections are generally not great in this range. When you go to open class, the chords and speeds go up enough that the problem tends to go away. Bottom line, there are a lot of trade-offs. Input from guys who have your level of field experience are invaluable to the design process. Polars look real good on paper but if all it does is run great in a straight line then it's not much use. However, a polar is a useful starting point and the calculations are generally supported by what little field data there is. It's a little tough to go into too much more detail on RCSE. Also probably not of general interest to everyone on the list. Is this topic of sufficient interest to open a 2M forum on RCGroups where some more detailed numbers, graphs etc. can be posted. Or does such a forum already exist? Thanks very much for the feedback Good luck with the girlfriends. In 1963, Jimmy Soul had a #1 hit with some interesting advice along those lines. - Dave R RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] 2M Rambles
From: Michael Lachowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] A small fin in front of a huge stab. They should have done it the other way around. = That's a free-flighter for ya. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] need info for sm. vac filtering system
hi, i'm looking for a small vac to use while dremeling. I want something small and quiet that i can hold in one hand and Dremel with the other to catch some of that epoxy dust. something like they use at the dentist. i have a 1hp ShopVac that i tried and works great, but just way to noisy. Also would like some kind of a filtering system to remove the solder smoke while soldering. i'm in a basement so it's hard to ventilate, even harder in the winter. appreciate any help. Dave Hauch www.git-r-built.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
