Re: [RCSE] Handicapping for contests
In the argument over the choice between handicapping the plane and handicapping the pilot, all I can say is that I come into the game already handicapped so there is no point in picking on my plane. Tom H. Nagel Columbus, OH RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Handicapping for contests
Here in the Ohio, MI, IN area, many of the monthly and sanctioned contests have two skill levels, Expert and novice ( or any name you want to apply to this group). Usually it is broken down by LSF level three or four as the divider and /or with contest wins record of each individual. This seems to work well for bringing out the newer guys, they fight it out amongst themselves and love it. OVSS is a good example. It is a little bit like guys asking what is the best Nostalgia plane. The vendors come out and say their stuff is the best, guys that haven't flown other NOS designs will say the one they fly is the best and by the time the thread wears out, the same old conclusion is reached, it is the pilot that wins contests. If you look at the win record of Jack Iafret's Nos AMA/LSF Nats contest, the type of plane that places first thru third in the event is all over the spectrum of old designs. From OLY ll (flat bottom airfoil), Challenger (Clark Y airfoil w/flaps), Grand Esprit (flat bottom airfoil), can't remember the others. So it remains in all types of contests, it is the skilled pilot most times that wins, the two skill level approach is very well received by both groups and adds a little motivation to the skilled pilots to help the novice group. Ray Hayes http://www.skybench.com Home of Wood Crafters - Original Message - From: Bill Malvey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 10:32 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Handicapping for contests On 12/19/04 18:37 Daryl Perkins wrote: Once you find out that doesn't work, and the same guys keep winning In golf they handicap the players... not their clubs of choice Damn. My handicap is that I think I can play golf!! But your point is correct. Personally Like the heads up style in TD contests. The fact is that most guys simply don't like competition (less than 8% of AMA members enter any kind of sanctioned contest in a given year), so doing stuff to make them happy only dilutes it for those that do like it. I fly the best stuff and I still get beaten by the better pilot, regardless of what they are flying. Ask the guys at the Rose Bowl a few years ago in 2M how they felt about JW kicking their butts with a 2-channel foamie!! ~~~ Bill Malvey RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Handicapping for contests
EXECELLENT !! --Jack Strother Granger, IN LSF 2948 LSF Level V #117 LSF Official 1996 - 2004 CSS Gold -- Original message --Full house 2m: +10% RES 2m: +12% RES Unlimited: +5% What do you think? Given that format, I'd fly a RES 2M. ;-) I remember a time not so long ago when all gliders coexisted peacefully on contest day. We had 2 classes.. 2m and open. Most everybody flew both classes. I was new to the scene, and the older more experienced guys usually flew poly ships... and won on a regular basis. Craig Foxgord was an animal with one of those things. Joe and I did OK, but guys like Keith Kendrick, Mike Regan, Tony Stark, Ben Matsumoto, Ben Clerx, Miles Moran, Edgar and BJ Weisman, Larry Jolly, and so many more very talented guys... everybody had fun flying whatever they wanted on that given day. Not so much emphasis on who's getting the wood. I hated getting beat by those poly things, but it happened regularly. There were Paragons flying against Falcon 880's, Sagitta 600's against Falcon 600's and Joe with his beat up Gentle lady that would only turn one way Now I go to a club contest... and there are 3 classes, with 2-3 pilot levels within each class there's like 20-30 guys there, and 487 trophies to give out at the end of the day When I go out to a contest, the only person I compete against is myself trying to fly and score better than I did the last time if I fly my best and win... great, but if I get beat by somebody who outflew me good for them! I may want their thumbs cut off but hey, all in good fun... ;-) Can't all of our airplanes just get along ;-) D __ Do you Yahoo!? Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good. http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Handicapping for contests
My sentiments exactly. Flung what you brung no matter how bad it looks. AJ RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Handicapping for contests
And Man Do YALOL !! --Jack Strother Granger, IN LSF 2948 LSF Level V #117 LSF Official 1996 - 2004 CSS Gold -- Original message -- My sentiments exactly. Flung what you brung no matter how bad it looks. AJ RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Handicapping for contests
Hadicapping the plane is a waste. It's like determining a golf handicap based on the choice of ball. You need to handicap the pilot. To ttruly level the playing field based on models, get several like models, such as Aspires or Spirits, fit them out and let all pilots fly from this model pool. No one is to use the same model twice in a contest. You'll see that the top pilots win just about every time. At a club contest earlier this year, one of our experts, Luther Mitchell, damaged his Super-V two meter on the next to last landing. I urged him to use my Aspire and finish his flights. He did and easily maxxed out and won the Expert Two-meter event that day. I never did max out the wame plane in the Sportsman contest that day. It's more than the plane. .bcAG4YQ Williamsburg, VA On Sun, 19 Dec 2004, Rick Eckel wrote: I'm interested in opinions. Our club Contest Coordinator is going to use a handicap system for our monthly contests to sorta level the field for different types of airplanes. We're hoping that it will encourage participation. Figuring that the Unlimited full house ship is the gold standard, how much of a handicap would you give a full house two meter? An RES 2 meter? and an unlimited RES. Keep it simple please, I'm a bear of very little brain and I'm the one who will have to figure out the scoring. My initial take was: Full house 2m: +10% RES 2m: +12% RES Unlimited: +5% What do you think? Rick Richard A. Eckel, PE, NSPE Eckel Associates, Inc. 1757 W. Broadway St. Suite 3 Oviedo, FL 32765 Professional Engineering for Petroleum Facilities Office: 407-366-8852 Cell: 954-775-6027 [EMAIL PROTECTED] RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Handicapping for contests
Handicapping either planes or pilots is an exercise in futility. If you have a desire to encourage less experienced flyers to enter contests, I offer the following: 1 - Shorten the winch line to something in the neighbourhood of 400-450 feet in an attempt to reduce the launch height. Keep the task times in the 5-7 minute range. This should give more flights in an event, which I believe beginners will find attractive. Limiting winch power to limit launch height would be nice, but that will never happen. 2 - Use a landing line instead of a landing spot. The landing line does not have to be the 50-foot line specified in the AMA rule book. Make the line 15-20 feet in length. Also, the distance from the line does not have to be measured in one-inch increments. Use a larger increment; experiment to find out what works best. A landing line should reduce the need to 'dork', thus reducing the stress on airframes and possibly extending their useful life. :) This may result in a number of pilots being tied at the end of the day, but so what? Have a fly-off , man-on-man if possible, to determine the winner. The less skilled flyers will be given the opportunity to watch the better flyers and may actually learn something! After all, isn't that part of what contest participation is all about? And oh yea, I have to add this: get rid of those stupid, ugly, 'training wheels' projecting from the bottom of your fuselage. Accept the fact that you are going to get some bad bounces. Over the long haul, the good bounces and the bad bounces will average out. In golf, we call it 'rub of the green'; its part of the game. Learn to accept the bad mixed in with the good; 'stuff' happens. :) Happy Holidays from the frozen tundra. Bob Johnson Fond du Lac, WI RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Handicapping for contests
Modesto RC club evened the score somewhat in 2004 by just having two landing circles. Everyone flew the same tasks. When it came to landing, RES had a large 30 foot area as opposed to a 10 foot area for everything else. The full house ships would usually win but the RES had there share of wins also. - Original Message - From: Rick Eckel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Daryl Perkins [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 4:57 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Handicapping for contests Ya, but if you had to put numbers on it what would you think? Rick ;-) At 04:48 PM 12/19/2004 -0800, Daryl Perkins wrote: My initial take was: Full house 2m: +10% RES 2m: +12% RES Unlimited: +5% What do you think? Given that format, I'd fly a RES 2M. ;-) I remember a time not so long ago when all gliders coexisted peacefully on contest day. We had 2 classes.. 2m and open. Most everybody flew both classes. I was new to the scene, and the older more experienced guys usually flew poly ships... and won on a regular basis. Craig Foxgord was an animal with one of those things. Joe and I did OK, but guys like Keith Kendrick, Mike Regan, Tony Stark, Ben Matsumoto, Ben Clerx, Miles Moran, Edgar and BJ Weisman, Larry Jolly, and so many more very talented guys... everybody had fun flying whatever they wanted on that given day. Not so much emphasis on who's getting the wood. I hated getting beat by those poly things, but it happened regularly. There were Paragons flying against Falcon 880's, Sagitta 600's against Falcon 600's and Joe with his beat up Gentle lady that would only turn one way Now I go to a club contest... and there are 3 classes, with 2-3 pilot levels within each class there's like 20-30 guys there, and 487 trophies to give out at the end of the day When I go out to a contest, the only person I compete against is myself trying to fly and score better than I did the last time if I fly my best and win... great, but if I get beat by somebody who outflew me good for them! I may want their thumbs cut off but hey, all in good fun... ;-) Can't all of our airplanes just get along ;-) D __ Do you Yahoo!? Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good. http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com Richard A. Eckel, PE, NSPE Eckel Associates, Inc. 1757 W. Broadway St. Suite 3 Oviedo, FL 32765 Professional Engineering for Petroleum Facilities Office: 407-366-8852 Cell: 954-775-6027 [EMAIL PROTECTED] RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Handicapping for contests
Bob, I was fully with you until you wanted to get rid of the training wheels... ;-) Merry Christmas! And thanks for the suggestions. (Its going to freeze here tonight for three to four hours - yikes! Break out the woolies.) Rick At 11:05 AM 12/20/2004 -0600, Bob Johnson wrote: Handicapping either planes or pilots is an exercise in futility. If you have a desire to encourage less experienced flyers to enter contests, I offer the following: 1 - Shorten the winch line to something in the neighbourhood of 400-450 feet in an attempt to reduce the launch height. Keep the task times in the 5-7 minute range. This should give more flights in an event, which I believe beginners will find attractive. Limiting winch power to limit launch height would be nice, but that will never happen. 2 - Use a landing line instead of a landing spot. The landing line does not have to be the 50-foot line specified in the AMA rule book. Make the line 15-20 feet in length. Also, the distance from the line does not have to be measured in one-inch increments. Use a larger increment; experiment to find out what works best. A landing line should reduce the need to 'dork', thus reducing the stress on airframes and possibly extending their useful life. :) This may result in a number of pilots being tied at the end of the day, but so what? Have a fly-off , man-on-man if possible, to determine the winner. The less skilled flyers will be given the opportunity to watch the better flyers and may actually learn something! After all, isn't that part of what contest participation is all about? And oh yea, I have to add this: get rid of those stupid, ugly, 'training wheels' projecting from the bottom of your fuselage. Accept the fact that you are going to get some bad bounces. Over the long haul, the good bounces and the bad bounces will average out. In golf, we call it 'rub of the green'; its part of the game. Learn to accept the bad mixed in with the good; 'stuff' happens. :) Happy Holidays from the frozen tundra. Bob Johnson Fond du Lac, WI RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Richard A. Eckel, PE, NSPE Eckel Associates, Inc. 1757 W. Broadway St. Suite 3 Oviedo, FL 32765 Professional Engineering for Petroleum Facilities Office: 407-366-8852 Cell: 954-775-6027 [EMAIL PROTECTED] RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Handicapping for contests
I'm looking for a full-scale sailplane. I will probably not fly near as much RC after I find it. I'm sure that when I get back into RC again we'll still be flying 10 minutes with 100 point landings... Just like after the last 20 year sebatical... 8^)... Jack Womack --- AJ Bhatta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My sentiments exactly. Flung what you brung no matter how bad it looks. AJ RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Handicapping for contests
I'm looking for a full-scale sailplane. I will probably not fly near as much RC after I find it. I'm sure that when I get back into RC again we'll still be flying 10 minutes with 100 point landings... Just like after the last 20 year sebatical... 8^)... Jack Womack --- AJ Bhatta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My sentiments exactly. Flung what you brung no matter how bad it looks. AJ RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. __ Do you Yahoo!? Jazz up your holiday email with celebrity designs. Learn more. http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Handicapping for contests
Hi Bob, as a beginner to contesting let me offer my opinion. #1 - shortening the launch line will not help beginners. It will then put a premium on the zooming ability of the pilot and the plane. I need all the help I can get at finding thermals and it is easier to do so from way up high. I do appreciate that more rounds == more flying however one of the reasons I *do* attend contests is that I get to launch on a winch instead of a histart and get an opportunity to fly from a decent starting height. The expert glider guys know where thermals are, can locate and core them pretty regularly and so shortening the line will not penalize them as much. Personally I liked the handicap the pilot. They already do this to some degree in ESL -- a Sportsman class and an expert class. Once you have won a contest in Sportsman you move up to Expert. That said, handicapping the pilot similar to what they do in golf won't work. In golf you have the USGA (and other worldwide organizations) that limit certain things about the equipment -- whether it is size of the club, bounce of the ball, flexibility of the shaft, whatever. Golf is primarily a pastime related to competition, whether it is competing against yourself, a buddy or a whole field of tournament players and so therefore there is an inherent desire by most to play fair and use equipment that complies with the rules. Soaring on the other hand is primarily a technical hobby turned into a contest. With a hobby this closely related to engineering and aeronatics it is natural that many, if not most, will try and push whatever technical limits exist and not want to comply with whatever set of published rules exist. Just look at the skegs vs. AMA rules and this everlasting debate. I do not think everyone would like any more mandates than we already have unless flying in a one-design class (I liked the idea of a Sovereign class that I heard about a few years ago). Ok, back on topic. It'd be nice to hear from other beginners to contesting why they do or do not enter. I like contests, when I can get to them for several reasons. I like contests because: - I get to meet many very experienced pilots who can help me excel in my hobby, and there are no better glider pilots than those who go to contests. - everyone, with two exceptions, of the people I have met have been courteous, kind and willing to go out of their way to help a beginner/intermediate. - I do not care that I come in close to last place every time. - I get to fly off of a winch that puts my plane 20% - 50% higher than off the histart. - I like looking at the scoreboard on any given round and *hoping* that my name is higher than someone else, even if they crashed. - I like contests for the thrill of landing. This could be whether it is coming in hot for a landing with all eyes on me, or plopping the plane down on the tape, or coming in for a landing with some guy who I do not know offering reassuring thoughts in my ear, or even landing off the field and having someone join me in the long walk of shame. - Finally, I like contests because when I first started Gordy said I should! ;-) Happy holidays to you all. Stuart -- frozen in CT, high of about 10 degrees and snow today, 50 degrees by Thursday. Bob Johnson wrote: Handicapping either planes or pilots is an exercise in futility. If you have a desire to encourage less experienced flyers to enter contests, I offer the following: 1 - Shorten the winch line to something in the neighbourhood of 400-450 feet in an attempt to reduce the launch height. Keep the task times in the 5-7 minute range. This should give more flights in an event, which I believe beginners will find attractive. Limiting winch power to limit launch height would be nice, but that will never happen. snip Happy Holidays from the frozen tundra. Bob Johnson Fond du Lac, WI RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Handicapping for contests
Soon to drop the Keeper title, the event will be total AMA as of 01JA05. This thread is just a little too competitive, Nostalgia is not about the BEST plane but the plane you liked best then trying to get the Best out of it using todays launch systems. So far at the NAT'S the diversity has been great and there has not been a BEST plane (really hope there never is), only the best plane for the conditions which have been quite varied over the years. TK winning one year with an OLY in 20 mph winds said a lot for pilot and not much for the plane. I flew to real mediocrity this last year in a new Maestro MKIII but enjoyed seeing the best of Dodgeson in the air again. After the next 20 post-Nats flights, I think Bob really did a nice job of being ahead of the design curve, you really must fly this beast to make it work light air and turn without tip stalling but it can be done. So Paragons forever and may the Maestro be a challange and continue to be fun. Jack Jack Iafret Keeper of the Nostalgia Rules From: Ray Hayes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Bill Malvey [EMAIL PROTECTED],[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [RCSE] Handicapping for contests Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 05:51:24 -0500 Here in the Ohio, MI, IN area, many of the monthly and sanctioned contests have two skill levels, Expert and novice ( or any name you want to apply to this group). Usually it is broken down by LSF level three or four as the divider and /or with contest wins record of each individual. This seems to work well for bringing out the newer guys, they fight it out amongst themselves and love it. OVSS is a good example. It is a little bit like guys asking what is the best Nostalgia plane. The vendors come out and say their stuff is the best, guys that haven't flown other NOS designs will say the one they fly is the best and by the time the thread wears out, the same old conclusion is reached, it is the pilot that wins contests. If you look at the win record of Jack Iafret's Nos AMA/LSF Nats contest, the type of plane that places first thru third in the event is all over the spectrum of old designs. From OLY ll (flat bottom airfoil), Challenger (Clark Y airfoil w/flaps), Grand Esprit (flat bottom airfoil), can't remember the others. So it remains in all types of contests, it is the skilled pilot most times that wins, the two skill level approach is very well received by both groups and adds a little motivation to the skilled pilots to help the novice group. Ray Hayes http://www.skybench.com Home of Wood Crafters - Original Message - From: Bill Malvey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 10:32 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Handicapping for contests On 12/19/04 18:37 Daryl Perkins wrote: Once you find out that doesn't work, and the same guys keep winning In golf they handicap the players... not their clubs of choice Damn. My handicap is that I think I can play golf!! But your point is correct. Personally Like the heads up style in TD contests. The fact is that most guys simply don't like competition (less than 8% of AMA members enter any kind of sanctioned contest in a given year), so doing stuff to make them happy only dilutes it for those that do like it. I fly the best stuff and I still get beaten by the better pilot, regardless of what they are flying. Ask the guys at the Rose Bowl a few years ago in 2M how they felt about JW kicking their butts with a 2-channel foamie!! ~~~ Bill Malvey RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Handicapping for contests
Not true about moving a pilot up to expert for a single win. It is a point system. If the pilot scores withihin the top 10 of all pilots he gets (11- his position points) . So if he were 3rd he would get 11-3 or 8 points These carry over from season to season.After 20 advancement points the pilot is moved to expert. The pilot may wish to move to expert before. Onto handicapping. I was a beginner 10 years ago. I can't understand why we try to make it easier. I for one realized that it would be a right of passage to put in the time and learn to become better. Changing the event wasn't going to make it more appealing. A person is either interested or not! Making it easier won't make the person more interested. It might have the reverse effect of boring them. Stuart A. Hall wrote: Hi Bob, as a beginner to contesting let me offer my opinion. #1 - shortening the launch line will not help beginners. It will then put a premium on the zooming ability of the pilot and the plane. I need all the help I can get at finding thermals and it is easier to do so from way up high. I do appreciate that more rounds == more flying however one of the reasons I *do* attend contests is that I get to launch on a winch instead of a histart and get an opportunity to fly from a decent starting height. The expert glider guys know where thermals are, can locate and core them pretty regularly and so shortening the line will not penalize them as much. Personally I liked the handicap the pilot. They already do this to some degree in ESL -- a Sportsman class and an expert class. Once you have won a contest in Sportsman you move up to Expert. That said, handicapping the pilot similar to what they do in golf won't work. In golf you have the USGA (and other worldwide organizations) that limit certain things about the equipment -- whether it is size of the club, bounce of the ball, flexibility of the shaft, whatever. Golf is primarily a pastime related to competition, whether it is competing against yourself, a buddy or a whole field of tournament players and so therefore there is an inherent desire by most to play fair and use equipment that complies with the rules. Soaring on the other hand is primarily a technical hobby turned into a contest. With a hobby this closely related to engineering and aeronatics it is natural that many, if not most, will try and push whatever technical limits exist and not want to comply with whatever set of published rules exist. Just look at the skegs vs. AMA rules and this everlasting debate. I do not think everyone would like any more mandates than we already have unless flying in a one-design class (I liked the idea of a Sovereign class that I heard about a few years ago). Ok, back on topic. It'd be nice to hear from other beginners to contesting why they do or do not enter. I like contests, when I can get to them for several reasons. I like contests because: - I get to meet many very experienced pilots who can help me excel in my hobby, and there are no better glider pilots than those who go to contests. - everyone, with two exceptions, of the people I have met have been courteous, kind and willing to go out of their way to help a beginner/intermediate. - I do not care that I come in close to last place every time. - I get to fly off of a winch that puts my plane 20% - 50% higher than off the histart. - I like looking at the scoreboard on any given round and *hoping* that my name is higher than someone else, even if they crashed. - I like contests for the thrill of landing. This could be whether it is coming in hot for a landing with all eyes on me, or plopping the plane down on the tape, or coming in for a landing with some guy who I do not know offering reassuring thoughts in my ear, or even landing off the field and having someone join me in the long walk of shame. - Finally, I like contests because when I first started Gordy said I should! ;-) Happy holidays to you all. Stuart -- frozen in CT, high of about 10 degrees and snow today, 50 degrees by Thursday. Bob Johnson wrote: Handicapping either planes or pilots is an exercise in futility. If you have a desire to encourage less experienced flyers to enter contests, I offer the following: 1 - Shorten the winch line to something in the neighbourhood of 400-450 feet in an attempt to reduce the launch height. Keep the task times in the 5-7 minute range. This should give more flights in an event, which I believe beginners will find attractive. Limiting winch power to limit launch height would be nice, but that will never happen. snip Happy Holidays from the frozen tundra. Bob Johnson Fond du Lac, WI RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News.
[RCSE] Handicapping for contests
I'm interested in opinions. Our club Contest Coordinator is going to use a handicap system for our monthly contests to sorta level the field for different types of airplanes. We're hoping that it will encourage participation. Figuring that the Unlimited full house ship is the gold standard, how much of a handicap would you give a full house two meter? An RES 2 meter? and an unlimited RES. Keep it simple please, I'm a bear of very little brain and I'm the one who will have to figure out the scoring. My initial take was: Full house 2m: +10% RES 2m: +12% RES Unlimited: +5% What do you think? Rick Richard A. Eckel, PE, NSPE Eckel Associates, Inc. 1757 W. Broadway St. Suite 3 Oviedo, FL 32765 Professional Engineering for Petroleum Facilities Office: 407-366-8852 Cell: 954-775-6027 [EMAIL PROTECTED] RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Handicapping for contests
Rick, Handicapping is really not the answer to gaining more participation. Especially if your new guy happens to start with a full house plane. I say suck it up, fly what you bring and make sure you have experts available to help the new guys out. By handicapping the planes, an expert could fly something like an AVA and basically still kick everyone's butts. Make sure you let the new guys know that the competition is just for fun and a great way to learn a lot about soaring and landing and plane set up from a great soaring fraternity. Once they know that, they will come again and again. See Ya, Pat McCleave Wichita, KS - Original Message - From: Rick Eckel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 6:04 PM Subject: [RCSE] Handicapping for contests I'm interested in opinions. Our club Contest Coordinator is going to use a handicap system for our monthly contests to sorta level the field for different types of airplanes. We're hoping that it will encourage participation. Figuring that the Unlimited full house ship is the gold standard, how much of a handicap would you give a full house two meter? An RES 2 meter? and an unlimited RES. Keep it simple please, I'm a bear of very little brain and I'm the one who will have to figure out the scoring. My initial take was: Full house 2m: +10% RES 2m: +12% RES Unlimited: +5% What do you think? Rick Richard A. Eckel, PE, NSPE Eckel Associates, Inc. 1757 W. Broadway St. Suite 3 Oviedo, FL 32765 Professional Engineering for Petroleum Facilities Office: 407-366-8852 Cell: 954-775-6027 [EMAIL PROTECTED] RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Handicapping for contests
My initial take was: Full house 2m: +10% RES 2m: +12% RES Unlimited: +5% What do you think? Given that format, I'd fly a RES 2M. ;-) I remember a time not so long ago when all gliders coexisted peacefully on contest day. We had 2 classes.. 2m and open. Most everybody flew both classes. I was new to the scene, and the older more experienced guys usually flew poly ships... and won on a regular basis. Craig Foxgord was an animal with one of those things. Joe and I did OK, but guys like Keith Kendrick, Mike Regan, Tony Stark, Ben Matsumoto, Ben Clerx, Miles Moran, Edgar and BJ Weisman, Larry Jolly, and so many more very talented guys... everybody had fun flying whatever they wanted on that given day. Not so much emphasis on who's getting the wood. I hated getting beat by those poly things, but it happened regularly. There were Paragons flying against Falcon 880's, Sagitta 600's against Falcon 600's and Joe with his beat up Gentle lady that would only turn one way Now I go to a club contest... and there are 3 classes, with 2-3 pilot levels within each class there's like 20-30 guys there, and 487 trophies to give out at the end of the day When I go out to a contest, the only person I compete against is myself trying to fly and score better than I did the last time if I fly my best and win... great, but if I get beat by somebody who outflew me good for them! I may want their thumbs cut off but hey, all in good fun... ;-) Can't all of our airplanes just get along ;-) D __ Do you Yahoo!? Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good. http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Handicapping for contests
Ya, but if you had to put numbers on it what would you think? Rick ;-) At 04:48 PM 12/19/2004 -0800, Daryl Perkins wrote: My initial take was: Full house 2m: +10% RES 2m: +12% RES Unlimited: +5% What do you think? Given that format, I'd fly a RES 2M. ;-) I remember a time not so long ago when all gliders coexisted peacefully on contest day. We had 2 classes.. 2m and open. Most everybody flew both classes. I was new to the scene, and the older more experienced guys usually flew poly ships... and won on a regular basis. Craig Foxgord was an animal with one of those things. Joe and I did OK, but guys like Keith Kendrick, Mike Regan, Tony Stark, Ben Matsumoto, Ben Clerx, Miles Moran, Edgar and BJ Weisman, Larry Jolly, and so many more very talented guys... everybody had fun flying whatever they wanted on that given day. Not so much emphasis on who's getting the wood. I hated getting beat by those poly things, but it happened regularly. There were Paragons flying against Falcon 880's, Sagitta 600's against Falcon 600's and Joe with his beat up Gentle lady that would only turn one way Now I go to a club contest... and there are 3 classes, with 2-3 pilot levels within each class there's like 20-30 guys there, and 487 trophies to give out at the end of the day When I go out to a contest, the only person I compete against is myself trying to fly and score better than I did the last time if I fly my best and win... great, but if I get beat by somebody who outflew me good for them! I may want their thumbs cut off but hey, all in good fun... ;-) Can't all of our airplanes just get along ;-) D __ Do you Yahoo!? Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good. http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com Richard A. Eckel, PE, NSPE Eckel Associates, Inc. 1757 W. Broadway St. Suite 3 Oviedo, FL 32765 Professional Engineering for Petroleum Facilities Office: 407-366-8852 Cell: 954-775-6027 [EMAIL PROTECTED] RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Handicapping for contests
Handicapping due to airframe is completely condition dependent. If the air is active, and the thermals close together, all planes are virtually equal, and comes down to the landing. Of course, the experienced pilot will minimize the effects of the poor conditions, and take advantage of his handicap. In other words, hard to come up with an equitable number or percentage that will work consistently. You'll probably need to use some trial and error, and see what works at your particular field under normal conditions for your area. I think you'll find that the data collected will be more representative of the pilots flying each model, than the models themselves. Once you find out that doesn't work, and the same guys keep winning In golf they handicap the players... not their clubs of choice have fun D __ Do you Yahoo!? Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good. http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Handicapping for contests
On 12/19/04 18:37 Daryl Perkins wrote: Once you find out that doesn't work, and the same guys keep winning In golf they handicap the players... not their clubs of choice Damn. My handicap is that I think I can play golf!! But your point is correct. Personally Like the heads up style in TD contests. The fact is that most guys simply don't like competition (less than 8% of AMA members enter any kind of sanctioned contest in a given year), so doing stuff to make them happy only dilutes it for those that do like it. I fly the best stuff and I still get beaten by the better pilot, regardless of what they are flying. Ask the guys at the Rose Bowl a few years ago in 2M how they felt about JW kicking their butts with a 2-channel foamie!! ~~~ Bill Malvey RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
