Re: [RCSE] JR gear on Ham band?
> I'm in doubt about a couple of claims that were made here about FCC rules concerning 6 meter r/c radios: > 1. Lex Mierop says that 50 Mhz can only be used for aircraft, not cars, boats, or robots. There are no restrictions as to what type of model can be controlled on 50 mHz. > 2. Chuck Anderson says that you can't allow someone to use your 6 meter r/c radio while you supervise as control operator. This is true, but was not so until the AMA pressed the FCC on this question. Originally the operation of a 6 meter radio control transmitter by a non ham was legal as long as 'control' of the transmitter was maintained by the license holder. This was considered to be the same type of operation as when a non ham talked on any of the other legal ham frequencies while the license holder operated the transmitter. Obviously a buddy box fulfilled this control requirement and until the AMA pressed the issue the fact that I could take the transmitter out of your hands at any moment fulfilled the control requirement. > Can anyone find any evidence on the Web confirming either of these alleged rules? I searched through FCC Part 97 and couldn't find a thing. http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/news/part97/ Unfortunately the rules do not contain all the limitations and information needed at times. Often the FCC has issued 'opinions' that carry the force of law that are very difficult, if not impossible, to find. This is ONE of the reasons the AMA pressed the issue of 'control operator'. regards, Jim Porter N0BZQ RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] JR gear on Ham band?
Looks like I have to retract my statement. I do believe I know where I got the mistaken idea from. When I bought my 50 MHz module after I got my ticket, the JR packaging had a nice bright red sticker on it that says "For Model Aircraft use only". I also need to check my 9303 box, which I bought on 50 MHz. I think it has the same label. -l RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] JR gear on Ham band?
On Fri, May 27, 2005 at 12:39:10AM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | I'm in doubt about a couple of claims that were made here about FCC rules | concerning 6 meter r/c radios: | | 1. Lex Mierop says that 50 Mhz can only be used for aircraft, not cars, | boats, or robots. I don't believe this. He said it was in the band plans, but it's not in the ARRL band plan that I can find -- http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/bandplan.html And even if it was, I'm not sure if band plans carry the force of law or not. Though they probably do qualify as `good amateur practice', and the FCC does like that, so ... As far as I know, you can do ground or air craft on both the 50 and 53 mHz R/C channels. | 2. Chuck Anderson says that you can't allow someone to use your 6 | meter r/c radio while you supervise as control operator. I said it too. I could have sworn I saw it in the technicial study book I used, but when I went looking through part 97 today, I couldn't find the rule. Maybe it's changed. I remember it as being specific to `telecommand', which is the term that they use for R/C. Though I did find this online -- "Here is the discussion on this topic taken from the latest edition of the ARRL's FCC Rule Book: "Telecommand of Model Craft Amateurs are also permitted to use radio links to control "model craft," such as model airplanes and boats. Certain restrictions apply [97.215] on this kind of operation: o Station identification is not required for transmission directed only to the model craft. The control transmitter must bear a label indicating the station's call sign and the licensee's name and address [97.215(a)]. o Control signals are not considered codes and ciphers [97.215(b)]. o Transmitter power cannot exceed 1 W [97.215(c)]. o Only licensed amateurs may operate telecommand transmitters using amateur frequencies. While unlicensed persons may participate as "third parties" in most amateur operations, they may not participate in telecommand operation. This is true even when a licensed amateur is closely supervising the operation. The FCC has said that the one-way transmissions involved in telecommand do not constitute third-party messages exchanged between control operators. Nonamateurs must use equipment and frequencies in the Radio Control Service. If licensed amateurs wish to use amateur equipment and frequencies for model telecommand, it is their responsibility to be sure that they can safely operate the equipment while observing the FCC's Rules." I found that at http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_1769536/anchors_1771645/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#1771645 and it came from Tom Hogerty, KC1J Field & Educational Services Phone: 860-594-0323 FAX: 860-594-0259 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]" Back in 2001. If anybody knows, the ARRL ought to know ... Beware though if you look at that link ... the page is not safe for work! (It contains some fine examples of silicone enhancement taken to the extreme for some strange reason ...) -- Doug McLaren, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Beam me up, Scotty! It ate my phaser! RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] JR gear on Ham band?
On Thu, May 26, 2005 at 06:26:45PM -1000, glide wrote: | Oops, I meant "sentiment" not sediment . ... | I kind of have the same sediment as Mike. Sentiment, sediment ... it all falls to the bottom! | I'm hoping that the synthesizer transmitters will keep most people | on 72 MHz and the present population of black flag pilots will be in | the background with just enough support from JR, Futaba, and even | Sombra Labs (I heard Sombra is coming out with a ham version of the | Shadow 3). Well, a true ham could modify a 75, 72 or 40 mHz sythesized module to work on 50 mHz, and I suspect a few have. Though with only 10 channels to worry about, carrying 10 crystals is almost practical ... And in case you didn't notice, the Shadow 1 does the 50, 72 and 75 mHz bands -- all in the same unit. That certainly seems to be the best of all possible worlds, though I'm a little concerned about how good it is at rejecting strong signals anywhere in that range. I'd emailed Barry Kennedy at Kennedy Composites asking if I could still get a Shadow 1, and he said -- Sorry, Shadow 1s are out of production right now. They will resume this summer. This was about a month ago. Hopefully he's right, though he ought to know. -- Doug McLaren, [EMAIL PROTECTED] She had a deep, throaty, genuine laugh, like that sound a dog makes just before it throws up. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] JR gear on Ham band?
I'm in doubt about a couple of claims that were made here about FCC rules concerning 6 meter r/c radios: 1. Lex Mierop says that 50 Mhz can only be used for aircraft, not cars, boats, or robots. 2. Chuck Anderson says that you can't allow someone to use your 6 meter r/c radio while you supervise as control operator. Can anyone find any evidence on the Web confirming either of these alleged rules? I searched through FCC Part 97 and couldn't find a thing. http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/news/part97/ Mike -- _ \__|__/ (O) RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] JR gear on Ham band?
Oops, I meant "sentiment" not sediment . All the best, Al -Original Message- From: glide [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 6:22 PM To: soaring@airage.com Subject: RE: [RCSE] JR gear on Ham band? I kind of have the same sediment as Mike. I am very fortunate here on Maui I am one of three licensed ham R/C pilots where I fly. But a couple years ago, I was the only ham pilot where I fly. I'm hoping that the synthesizer transmitters will keep most people on 72 MHz and the present population of black flag pilots will be in the background with just enough support from JR, Futaba, and even Sombra Labs (I heard Sombra is coming out with a ham version of the Shadow 3). Aloha to all on RCSE, Al Battad - WH6VE AMA #506981 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 3:09 PM To: soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] JR gear on Ham band? Doug McLaren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Also, nobody else can legally fly your plane if it uses the ham bands, >unless they're also a ham operator. I don't think you can even use a >buddy box unless both people are hams. (I think the law specifically >prohibits third party traffic with R/C on the ham bands.) The way I see it, it's not third-party traffic, it's you being the control operator. I believe it's perfectly legal so long as you're there watching, and if someone is flying your plane then you almost certainly will be. (It IS a handy excuse to say "no you can't fly my plane" though.) I always have mixed emotions when someone asks if they should get ham gear. I think it's a great idea if you have a license, but I also don't want to spoil a good thing for those of us who already use those frequencies. Ideally I'd like to see 50 MHz gear be just popular enough to remain in production and readily available at good prices, but no more popular than that! Mike -- Winch Solenoid Safety Buzzer - http://www.vvsss.com/buzzer/ _ \__|__/ (O) RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] JR gear on Ham band?
I kind of have the same sediment as Mike. I am very fortunate here on Maui I am one of three licensed ham R/C pilots where I fly. But a couple years ago, I was the only ham pilot where I fly. I'm hoping that the synthesizer transmitters will keep most people on 72 MHz and the present population of black flag pilots will be in the background with just enough support from JR, Futaba, and even Sombra Labs (I heard Sombra is coming out with a ham version of the Shadow 3). Aloha to all on RCSE, Al Battad - WH6VE AMA #506981 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 3:09 PM To: soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] JR gear on Ham band? Doug McLaren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Also, nobody else can legally fly your plane if it uses the ham bands, >unless they're also a ham operator. I don't think you can even use a >buddy box unless both people are hams. (I think the law specifically >prohibits third party traffic with R/C on the ham bands.) The way I see it, it's not third-party traffic, it's you being the control operator. I believe it's perfectly legal so long as you're there watching, and if someone is flying your plane then you almost certainly will be. (It IS a handy excuse to say "no you can't fly my plane" though.) I always have mixed emotions when someone asks if they should get ham gear. I think it's a great idea if you have a license, but I also don't want to spoil a good thing for those of us who already use those frequencies. Ideally I'd like to see 50 MHz gear be just popular enough to remain in production and readily available at good prices, but no more popular than that! Mike -- Winch Solenoid Safety Buzzer - http://www.vvsss.com/buzzer/ _ \__|__/ (O) RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] JR gear on Ham band?
At 08:08 PM 5/26/2005, you wrote: The way I see it, it's not third-party traffic, it's you being the control operator. I believe it's perfectly legal so long as you're there watching, and if someone is flying your plane then you almost certainly will be. (It IS a handy excuse to say "no you can't fly my plane" though.) It doesn't matter how you see it. It's how FCC sees it. This question has been ask for over 50 years and the answer has always been that NOBODY can control a model on the ham bands without a valid FCC license. The first time I remember this question ask was in the early 60's. Somebody ask if a modeler could fly on the ham band if a licensed ham turned the transmitter on. The answer was no. It has been ask many times since and I have seen an FCC letter on the subject printed in Model Aviation. Why don't you ask AMA or better yet, ask the FCC. Chuck Anderson WA4ZFH RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] JR gear on Ham band?
Doug McLaren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Also, nobody else can legally fly your plane if it uses the ham bands, >unless they're also a ham operator. I don't think you can even use a >buddy box unless both people are hams. (I think the law specifically >prohibits third party traffic with R/C on the ham bands.) The way I see it, it's not third-party traffic, it's you being the control operator. I believe it's perfectly legal so long as you're there watching, and if someone is flying your plane then you almost certainly will be. (It IS a handy excuse to say "no you can't fly my plane" though.) I always have mixed emotions when someone asks if they should get ham gear. I think it's a great idea if you have a license, but I also don't want to spoil a good thing for those of us who already use those frequencies. Ideally I'd like to see 50 MHz gear be just popular enough to remain in production and readily available at good prices, but no more popular than that! Mike -- Winch Solenoid Safety Buzzer - http://www.vvsss.com/buzzer/ _ \__|__/ (O) RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] JR gear on Ham band?
Lex Mierop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >There is one misconception that keeps coming up about the 6 meter ham band. >The 6 meter band plan reserves the 50 MHz frequencies for aircraft use only. >The 53.x MHz frequencies are open to ground use as well as air. I can't find any evidence of that. The AMA frequency plan at http://www.modelaircraft.org/Comp/frequency.htm says that both the 50 and 53 MHz channels are "For Model Aircraft and Surface Model Use". I also searched through some of the online FCC rules but couldn't find anything there either. I'm pretty sure Doug McLaren is right. Someone could be legally controlling an r/c car, boat, or robot on your 50 Mhz channel. Come to think of it, this came close to actually happening to me! An r/c sailing club that uses a lake near our club's flying site hosted what they called a "regatta", and one of the prospective out-of-town participants was on my 50 Mhz channel. Fortunately for me, he had to cancel his trip and the conflict never happened. Mike -- Winch Solenoid Safety Buzzer - http://www.vvsss.com/buzzer/ _ \__|__/ (O) RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] JR gear on Ham band?
There is one misconception that keeps coming up about the 6 meter ham band. The 6 meter band plan reserves the 50 MHz frequencies for aircraft use only. The 53.x MHz frequencies are open to ground use as well as air. -l KG6SXO RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] JR gear on Ham band?
On Thu, May 26, 2005 at 01:26:07PM -0700, Jim Laurel wrote: | Anyway, it seems to me that one way to avoid these channel conflicts | would be to start using HAM band. You're just trading some dangers for other dangers. Rather than being at risk of guys who don't take 72 mhz frequency control seriously, wireless mikes and pager towers, you're at risk of guys who don't take 50 mHz frequency sharing seriously and other hams who are out of the band plan. (And those other hams could be transmitting at up to 1500 watts.) And there's fewer ham band frequencies anyways, so if you do run into other users of them, the odds of a conflict are higher. And the ham band frequencies are legal for ground use, so somebody with an R/C car or robot could conflict with you and never know it. Also, nobody else can legally fly your plane if it uses the ham bands, unless they're also a ham operator. I don't think you can even use a buddy box unless both people are hams. (I think the law specifically prohibits third party traffic with R/C on the ham bands.) In general, I do think the overall odds of a conflict on the ham bands are smaller than the odds of conflict on the 72 mHz band, but they're not zero. I've never had a hit on channel 5 or run into another user of it, but I also know that doesn't mean I'm safe ... | At least, they don't sell this stuff in the local toy stores...I | mean hobby shops... The local hobby shop will happily order ham stuff for me. Of course, I usually just go to Tower Hobbies -- they'll get it to me faster and cheaper. The local hobby shop is a lot more expensive, and while I'd like to support him, I'm not going to spend a lot of extra money to do it. | and it's probably a fair assumption that guys on the HAM bands are | going to be strict about managing conflict. I don't know. Mistakes are made by hams just like everybody else, and people do accidently step on each other all the time. But usually, the only damage is that somebody has to repeat what they said/sent ... And they may very well assume that nobody else is using the ham band anyways -- an assumption that works MOST of the time ... I see no reason to expect that hams will be any better at frequency control than anybody else. | I have JR transmitters and JR PCM receivers (R649s and R770s). | Assuming I have at least an amateur radio technician's license So don't assume. Get it. The test is very easy. | how do I go about getting my JR stuff on 50mHz? If you have transmitters with modules, you get 50 mHz modules. If they don't have modules, you get new transmitters, or have your transmitters modified. (Having them modified may not be practical -- it depends on the transmitter. You may also be able to do it yourself if you have the skills and equipment.) As for your receivers, you sell them here or somewhere else, and then you order new ones that use the ham bands -- you can't convert receivers to radically different bands like that, not in any cost effective way anyways. | P.S., Link for RC Scan 7200. Costs more than the Hobbico, but worth $250. (And out of stock.) | it. Specs say that it will detect signals up to around 2000 feet | away, but in my experience, that is conservative. I wonder why somebody doesn't just make these with receivers as sensitive as standard R/C receivers. Perhaps they do, but the difference is due to the receiver not being up in the air ... | http://www.desert-wolfe.com/rcscan/7200.htm Looks nice. Really, the only thing that's special about the Hobbico unit is the price. But the price is so much cheaper than anything else out there, so that's pretty special. :) -- Doug McLaren, [EMAIL PROTECTED], AD5RH Just because your doctor has a name for your condition doesn't mean he knows what it is. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] JR gear on Ham band?
Hey Jim, I am very pleased with my JR 9303 on ham band. Note also that all the receivers except PCM stuff use the same shift so will work well with each other. I am currently running JR, Futaba and FMA receivers with the same JR transmitter. On the other hand, there is no way to change a 72 MHz Rx to the ham band. Same with the TX but that is easy since you just plug in a new module. Buy the ARRL book and you can get your tech license with moderate effort. Good luck Jim MacLean RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] JR gear on Ham band?
All this talk about frequency checkers has me thinking once again about channel interference. To be clear, I'm talking about glitches due to multiple transmitters on the same frequency. First of all, I think the new low-end Hobbico scanner is a great idea. I use Brian Wolfe's RC Scan 7200 every time I fly. Hats off to Hobbico for bringing at least rudimentary channel scanning down to a price point everyone can afford. I hope it has the effect of bringing a greater awareness to people about the importance of avoiding channel conflicts. That awareness is sorely needed. To wit: We have a couple of electric guys that show up at our field and never check out a frequency because "I never see anybody using my channel..." They've been told several times and still don't seem to get it. One of them even works for a major US aircraft manufacturer and should know better! :-() A couple weeks ago, one of them was flying a foamy 3d plane around right over our landing tapes! I'm scared to death of these guys. Anyway, it seems to me that one way to avoid these channel conflicts would be to start using HAM band. At least, they don't sell this stuff in the local toy stores...I mean hobby shops...and it's probably a fair assumption that guys on the HAM bands are going to be strict about managing conflict. I have JR transmitters and JR PCM receivers (R649s and R770s). Assuming I have at least an amateur radio technician's license, how do I go about getting my JR stuff on 50mHz? Cheers - Jim Laurel P.S., Link for RC Scan 7200. Costs more than the Hobbico, but worth it. Specs say that it will detect signals up to around 2000 feet away, but in my experience, that is conservative. http://www.desert-wolfe.com/rcscan/7200.htm RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
