Re: [RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?" Thanks for the 'assurances and guesses!"
Steve Kaluf's employment at AMA was terminated last August. They are currently seeking a new Technical Director per their Now Hiring area but the ad states they wanted applications no later than Sept 28th. Not sure if they have a replacement yet. Mark Miller - Original Message From: Rob Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: soaring@airage.com Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 1:22:32 AM Subject: Re: [RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?" Thanks for the 'assurances and guesses!" I would expect the spektrum limit and what happens when the "channels" are occupied was addressed to the AMA's satisfaction. Perhaps asking Steve Kaluf is in order. He's the AMA tech guy. Rob On Dec 26, 2007 9:20 PM, Kevin O'Dell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Begin forwarded message: basically...the mixing systems shouldn't be any issue. The Futaba systems represent momentary narrow band emissions and as such will not interfere with the Direct Sequence system used by JR/Spektrum.when you get 39 JR/Spektrum radios on at the same time, then number 40 will not be able to achieve a lock with the receiver.that one won't be able to fly till one of the other ones is turned off...none of the other ones currently on will be affected by the 40th one..the Futaba and JR systems use VERY different Spread Spectrum systems...the Futaba frequency hopping system basically uses a narrow band signal but change the frequency across a wide spectrum..the JR/Spektrum Direct Sequence system literally spreads the data packets across a wide spectrum.the great part about this is when the receiver puts all of this back together.the direct sequence system reduces the background interference to a minimum.. Kevin O'Dell Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
Re: [RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?" Thanks for the 'assurances and guesses!"
I would expect the spektrum limit and what happens when the "channels" are occupied was addressed to the AMA's satisfaction. Perhaps asking Steve Kaluf is in order. He's the AMA tech guy. Rob On Dec 26, 2007 9:20 PM, Kevin O'Dell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Begin forwarded message: > > basically...the mixing systems shouldn't be any issue. The Futaba > systems represent momentary narrow band emissions and as such will not > interfere with the Direct Sequence system used by JR/Spektrum.when you > get 39 JR/Spektrum radios on at the same time, then number 40 will not be > able to achieve a lock with the receiver.that one won't be able to fly > till one of the other ones is turned off...none of the other ones currently > on will be affected by the 40th one..the Futaba and JR systems use VERY > different Spread Spectrum systems...the Futaba frequency hopping system > basically uses a narrow band signal but change the frequency across a wide > spectrum..the JR/Spektrum Direct Sequence system literally spreads the > data packets across a wide spectrum.the great part about this is when > the receiver puts all of this back together.the direct sequence system > reduces the background interference to a minimum.. > Kevin O'Dell > > >
Fwd: [RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?" Thanks for the 'assurances and guesses!"
Begin forwarded message: basically...the mixing systems shouldn't be any issue. The Futaba systems represent momentary narrow band emissions and as such will not interfere with the Direct Sequence system used by JR/ Spektrum.when you get 39 JR/Spektrum radios on at the same time, then number 40 will not be able to achieve a lock with the receiver.that one won't be able to fly till one of the other ones is turned off...none of the other ones currently on will be affected by the 40th one..the Futaba and JR systems use VERY different Spread Spectrum systems...the Futaba frequency hopping system basically uses a narrow band signal but change the frequency across a wide spectrum..the JR/Spektrum Direct Sequence system literally spreads the data packets across a wide spectrum.the great part about this is when the receiver puts all of this back together.the direct sequence system reduces the background interference to a minimum.. Kevin O'Dell
Re: [RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?"
Guys, I don't know what is more scary.. The Mysterious Pilot # 41 waiting to shoot me down out there. Or the Fact that Gordy has now become the expert on 2.4 Mgz Integration. I love Gordy as much as the rest of you but remember when We took Aero 101 From the Stahl Master. I took all the rudders off my airplanes because they didn't need them. The fact of the matter is this is an over simplified view of the 2.4 question. I jumped to 2.4 in September, that is all I fly now. Once you fly 2.4 and find that you have no Electric Glitches from your ESC, The controls are quicker, and you can fly when you want where you want you won't go back. All my 72 Mhz stuff is for Sale. In fact I am inviting all you 72 Die Hards to come check out My Airtronics Going Out of Business sale at Phoenix. Everything is available. See you there Larry Number of systems that can be in use simultaneously Spectrum Airtronics Futaba Xtreme 39 38 (?)? 120 Got these from the XtremePowerSystems site (letting the Christmas turkey settle to make room for pie and this was something I had been thinking about for awhile, so decided to do a little Googling). Correct me if I am wrong but I believe the general modeler believed that with 2.4 all concerns for freq control were overMillions could all be on at once...there was the story about the huge heli event with hundreds of attendees most enjoying the freedom of 2.4hmmmn. Did you all believe that the amount of 2.4 TXs on at once was almost unlimited? Here's another wrench in the freq paradise workswhat about a mix of brands and systems? Some using two channels at once, some hopping around. Regardless of the information encoding, radio waves are still radio waves, and can be shaded, mixed and diluted. How do you control 100+ contestants 2.4 TX's when there isn't any channel assignments? Impound every TX and only let up to 39 of one brand at a time? >From 50 channels controlled to 38 hopefully safe? Just wondering, if anyone else is wondering...oh yeah Merry Chrismas! I got my new AMA card...you? Gordy See AOL's _top rated recipes_ (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop000304) and _easy ways to stay in shape_ (http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aoltop000303) for winter. **See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop000304)
Re: [RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?"
Gordy, We know that you fly every day of the year, in every part of the world. Considering that you attend maybe 4 contests a year where there are more than 40 participants, that means that 99% of the time (literally) you can fly worry free with a 2.4 gz. System. I¹m not a marketing guy, I¹m not a statistics guy, I just enjoy taking out my handlaunch on the Futaba 2.4 system and flying it anywhere without worrying about what channel anyone is on. As long as a CD in a large contest still has impound, the scenario you described literally cannot take place. Your post came on Christmas Day. How about celebrating the 99% instead of focusing on the 1%? JE -- Erickson Architects John R. Erickson, AIA From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 21:15:00 EST To: Soaring@airage.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?" Number of systems that can be in use simultaneously Spectrum Airtronics Futaba Xtreme 39 38 (?) ? 120 Got these from the XtremePowerSystems site (letting the Christmas turkey settle to make room for pie and this was something I had been thinking about for awhile, so decided to do a little Googling). Correct me if I am wrong but I believe the general modeler believed that with 2.4 all concerns for freq control were overMillions could all be on at once...there was the story about the huge heli event with hundreds of attendees most enjoying the freedom of 2.4hmmmn. Did you all believe that the amount of 2.4 TXs on at once was almost unlimited? Here's another wrench in the freq paradise workswhat about a mix of brands and systems? Some using two channels at once, some hopping around. Regardless of the information encoding, radio waves are still radio waves, and can be shaded, mixed and diluted. How do you control 100+ contestants 2.4 TX's when there isn't any channel assignments? Impound every TX and only let up to 39 of one brand at a time? >From 50 channels controlled to 38 hopefully safe? Just wondering, if anyone else is wondering...oh yeah Merry Chrismas! I got my new AMA card...you? Gordy See AOL's top rated recipes <http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop000304> and easy ways to stay in shape <http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aoltop000303> for winter.
Re: [RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?" Thanks for the 'assurances and guesses!"
Kai Yang and Gordy each wrote some of the quoted material -- |What I am hearing is if there are over 40 SS system turn-on at |the same time, the 41th one won't be able to send out signal. It |won't shut down other people's plane but just cannot fly your own |plane. That's the Spektrum DX6 story, and it might extend to the DSM2 stuff too. Other brands and models have different limits/failure modes. XPS gave a chart because they felt it put their system in a better light. And I'm not sure who this `general modeler' is that Gordy is referring to -- pretty much everybody, perhaps outside of Spektrum's marketing department, is aware that there are some sorts of limits. | But, seriously, are you expecting over 40 sailplanes to be in | the air at one time at a typical club field? To be fair, you have to worry about planes on the ground too. Well, really, you're worried about transmitters, not planes. And not all fields are typical ... |ON means transmissions. How is the CD gonna handle 2.4 count and |amounts when their owners feel they are safe to turn on at any |time? Well, once these limits are exceeded (and perhaps even as they're approached) things will start to degrade, but there should not be overt failures, except for Spektrum transmitters unable to find unused channels (which happens while your plane is on the ground, so it's inconvenient, but not a disaster.) Planes should not start crashing just because somebody turned on the 41st transmitter (but with 72 MHz and 50 planes in the air, a plane WILL crash when the 51st transmitter turns on.) Perhaps latency will increase (I'd expect that especially with the Futaba system) and perhaps maximum range might go down, but in general the problems should be mild. The CDs and pilots will learn to adapt, to somehow limit the number of transmitters turned on at any given time to some figure if needed. They could do an impound, pins, whatever. And if somebody ignores this, well, warn or punish them when caught -- but at least it's not likely to cause problems unless many people ignore it. It will certainly be better than the current system, where if one guy accidently turns on when he doesn't have the pin, somebody might crash. |The next one that I didn't see addressed is the 'mixing' part...what |happens when you have Futa, Xtreme, Spectrum, Airtronics, and the |Chinese show up together...regardless of numbers. Yes, should be interesting. And yes, it has been addressed, and is addressed every time there's a large event. Well, at least Futaba/XPS/Spektrum ... dunno about Aitronics or anything from China. And sure, there's room for more testing. |Then there is this one: Ed asked :"Why don't you organize a test " | |Why would I? My hobby is to build and fly sailplanes, my job is to |sell beach cleaners. Where does posting to RCSE fall into this? Hobby or job? You're in a excellent position to organize some sort of impromptu test, and you don't even need to host your own event. You also don't need 500 pilots -- 50 SS TX's and planes would be good, 100 even more interesting. |So far at best 2.4 sort of works, if the install is just right, |if the models materials are cooperative and 'should' work fine |with other 2.4 systems..as long as their aren't too many TX's on |at one timebut no one has come up with control system to |protect against or even determine who will be turning on in the |pits. Of course, *everything* you've just said applies to 72 MHz too. And the 72 MHz impound/pin systems work fine with spread spectrum gear (with minor adjustments to loosen the rules up, and of course, these systems still don't provide protection against troublemakers who turn on in the pits (or parking lot!) and still don't tell who is doing it.) If you like 72 MHz, use it. It's not going away. In fact, you should be telling people how great 2.4 GHz is -- the more people on 2.4 GHz, the fewer people on 72 MHz ... |So what's the skinnyhow many of you realized that it is |possible to be shot down with 2.4, If `all of you' = readers of RCSE, probably most of us. It's just harder. |that less than our current 50 TX's can be running at once As soon as Spektrum said `1 MHz channels', `2 channels in use simultaneously' and `80 MHz' band, people were doing the math. |and no one is too sure about how many of a mix of brand |systems are safe? With 72 MHz gear, we're quite aware that 51 simultaneous systems is unsafe -- and you can only reach 50 through *extreme* luck or careful planning. And even if everybody has their own channel, problems are still possible, either with out of tune gear, 2IM or 3IM interference, poor receivers ... it's amazing it works as well as it does. If a number of pilots show up on random 72 MHz channels, it only takes *9* for there to be a better than 50% chance of somebody getting shot down without some sort of frequ
Re: [RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?" Gordy Does it again !!
At 08:30 AM 12/26/2007, you wrote: 2.4g for me, is very exciting, can't wait till I get one, however, I am not in a real big rush. My 72 Mhz, Airtronics, Mpx 4000, and JR 9303 Stuff works very well, My Futuba stuff is in a box in the corner, and I can afford to sit back and watch what shakes out of the whole mixture. I agree with Jack except that I have converted my backup Evo to 2.4 in order to experiment with 2.4. I refuse to go back to plastic porcupines just to get 2.4 so my only choice was to use XPS. XPS does not yet offer an end plug receiver that will fit in my sailplanes so I have flown my XPS only in an old model that I keep for flight testing radio equipment. No need to rush since my Evo with Hitec Superslime receivers still does everything I need and there are no local fliers on my frequency. I may convert some of my sailplanes when suitable receivers become available but see no need to rush out and buy more 2.4 receivers before I have to. Chuck RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?" Gordy Does it again !!
Good Morning Folks! I Not so sure that it is a record, however, Gordy either starts the year or ends the year in contorversy! Go figure. Some of us in the Mid west and south of Michigian, that organize "Big" Contests, Like the Nats, and on the club level, before the libs took over, have been pondering this very issue. And it could be a real issue, In the days past we would set matraces to "Help" protect the contestant, with the exception of the stupid turn on and shoot down. I have been flying for 40 years and I have seen more than my share of shoot downs, wether it be a contest OR just plain club flying stupid always shows up at the field. 2.4g for me, is very exciting, can't wait till I get one, however, I am not in a real big rush. My 72 Mhz, Airtronics, Mpx 4000, and JR 9303 Stuff works very well, My Futuba stuff is in a box in the corner, and I can afford to sit back and watch what shakes out of the whole mixture. I Think that Gordy is right, more testing should have been done by the manufracturers, internally, or at least by the Technical Director of the AMA, who assisted in the blessing of of the system. Intermodulation and Noise issues previously mentioned, should be of a real concern! As always, this stuff will get hacked out on the "Competion" circuit(s), just as many of the designs for our sailplanes and improvements for our end of the hobby have. That way, he who contests not, can express major opinions on just how and why the industry should or should not react to the given situtation. I suspect that more people are on this issue than we know about. Good Thread Gordy, and Yes, I have had my New License for a month or so... Merry Merry, and Happy, Happy -- Jack Strother Granger, IN LSF 2948 LSF Level V #117 LSF Official 1996 - 2004 CSS Gold --- Begin Message --- Okay I expected the guesses and opinions and assurances. Let's take this one first: But, seriously, are you expecting over 40 sailplanes to be in the air at one time at a typical club field? Those who posted this implied 'everything will be okay' rationale don't attend big events where the problem has never been a conflict of planes in the air, we have clips and impounds and channel assignments for those. The guys who have 2.4 fell in love with them especially because they didn't "have to worry about pins, clips and impounds any more" . Now you can just pull up put your plane together, turn on and fly...even on Visalia Friday. There is a lot more than 50 guys with sailplanes wanting to fly, assemble, program etc on any given major contest day. On is on, regardless of if the models are in the air. ON means transmissions. How is the CD gonna handle 2.4 count and amounts when their owners feel they are safe to turn on at any time? Back to pins on this time they represent count instead of freq channel? 1 thru 39? The next one that I didn't see addressed is the 'mixing' part...what happens when you have Futa, Xtreme, Spectrum, Airtronics, and the Chinese show up together...regardless of numbers. Then there is this one: Ed asked :"Why don't you organize a test " Why would I? My hobby is to build and fly sailplanes, my job is to sell beach cleaners. Ed, why don't you ask the suppliers of 2.4 stuff to work for their pay? Why haven't you? You post assurances and promote as if you have some cash interest in 2.4. You repeat hearsay about a heli event with 500 pilots and then guess at how many TX's were turned on at the time, using it as some 'proof' that the deal is done. Do you have a clue as to how much parking alone it would take to host 500 pilots? I think before repeating that 'proof' you might want to investigate it instead of just repeating it. I know the source, that doesn't make it valid. Are you going to tell me that less than 40 guys had their TX's on all at once with 500 on the field? So far at best 2.4 sort of works, if the install is just right, if the models materials are cooperative and 'should' work fine with other 2.4 systems..as long as their aren't too many TX's on at one timebut no one has come up with control system to protect against or even determine who will be turning on in the pits. So what's the skinnyhow many of you realized that it is possible to be shot down with 2.4, that less than our current 50 TX's can be running at once and no one is too sure about how many of a mix of brand systems are safe? Was just wondering that's all :-)? GordyGlenwood Springs Co See AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for winter. --- End Message ---
Re: [RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?" Thanks for the 'assurances and ...
In a message dated 12/26/2007 2:18:56 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Okay I expected the guesses and opinions and assurances. Let's take this one first: But, seriously, are you expecting over 40 sailplanes to be in the air at one time at a typical club field? Those who posted this implied 'everything will be okay' rationale don't attend big events where the problem has never been a conflict of planes in the air, we have clips and impounds and channel assignments for those. The guys who have 2.4 fell in love with them especially because they didn't "have to worry about pins, clips and impounds any more" . Now you can just pull up put your plane together, turn on and fly...even on Visalia Friday. There is a lot more than 50 guys with sailplanes wanting to fly, assemble, program etc on any given major contest day. On is on, regardless of if the models are in the air. ON means transmissions. How is the CD gonna handle 2.4 count and amounts when their owners feel they are safe to turn on at any time? Back to pins on this time they represent count instead of freq channel? 1 thru 39? The next one that I didn't see addressed is the 'mixing' part...what happens when you have Futa, Xtreme, Spectrum, Airtronics, and the Chinese show up together...regardless of numbers. I gotta go with Yogi Berra on this one, "Nobody flies 2.4 anymore. It's too crowded." Bill Wingstedt **See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop000304) RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?"
Just kidding of course. (grin) Right Gory er Gordy..? Brian
- Original Message -
From: Darwin N. Barrie
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Steve Schneider ; RCSE
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 10:17 PM
Subject: Re: [RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?"
The more that jump to 2.4, the less using 72. The "moron" factor is thereby
reduced on 72!!
I haven't had a problem on 72 and have only witnessed maybe 6 shootdowns in
40+ years of RC.
Darwin
- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Darwin N. Barrie ; Steve Schneider ; RCSE
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?"
Would you rather fly where only one person can shoot you down or where it
would take 40? (grin) 2.4 and lovin' every minute of it.. Brian
- Original Message -
From: Darwin N. Barrie
To: Steve Schneider ; RCSE
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: [RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?"
The only type of contest I know of that is pretty unlimited in amount of
transmitters out is a soaring event. I have counted 32 planes in the air at
Visalia. Could be more at times.
I could be wrong but most events (powered aircraft) limit the amount of
transmitters out (based on flight stations) at any one time. The IRCHA heli
event may be an exception.
I had heard the magic number for 2.4 is 41. Who knows for sure. That is
one reason why I'm not ready to completely abandon 72 mhz.
Darwin N. Barrie
Chandler AZ
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.8/1196 - Release Date: 12/25/2007
12:18 PM
Re: [RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?"
Are you saying all the morons are on 72 with you and Gory?
- Original Message -
From: Darwin N. Barrie
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Steve Schneider ; RCSE
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 10:17 PM
Subject: Re: [RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?"
The more that jump to 2.4, the less using 72. The "moron" factor is thereby
reduced on 72!!
I haven't had a problem on 72 and have only witnessed maybe 6 shootdowns in
40+ years of RC.
Darwin
- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Darwin N. Barrie ; Steve Schneider ; RCSE
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?"
Would you rather fly where only one person can shoot you down or where it
would take 40? (grin) 2.4 and lovin' every minute of it.. Brian
- Original Message -
From: Darwin N. Barrie
To: Steve Schneider ; RCSE
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: [RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?"
The only type of contest I know of that is pretty unlimited in amount of
transmitters out is a soaring event. I have counted 32 planes in the air at
Visalia. Could be more at times.
I could be wrong but most events (powered aircraft) limit the amount of
transmitters out (based on flight stations) at any one time. The IRCHA heli
event may be an exception.
I had heard the magic number for 2.4 is 41. Who knows for sure. That is
one reason why I'm not ready to completely abandon 72 mhz.
Darwin N. Barrie
Chandler AZ
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.8/1196 - Release Date: 12/25/2007
12:18 PM
Re: [RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?" Thanks for the 'assurances and guesses!"
Correct me if I am wrong. What I am hearing is if there are over 40 SS system turn-on at the same time, the 41th one won't be able to send out signal. It won't shut down other people's plane but just cannot fly your own plane. -Kai ※ 引述《"GordySoar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>》之郵件內容：Okay I expected the guesses and opinions and assurances. Let's take this one first: But, seriously, are you expecting over 40 sailplanes to be in the air at one time at a typical club field? Those who posted this implied 'everything will be okay' rationale don't attend big events where the problem has never been a conflict of planes in the air, we have clips and impounds and channel assignments for those. The guys who have 2.4 fell in love with them especially because they didn't "have to worry about pins, clips and impounds any more" . Now you can just pull up put your plane together, turn on and fly...even on Visalia Friday. There is a lot more than 50 guys with sailplanes wanting to fly, assemble, program etc on any given major contest day. On is on, regardless of if the models are in the air. ON means transmissions. How is the CD gonna handle 2.4 count and amounts when their owners feel they are safe to turn on at any time? Back to pins on this time they represent count instead of freq channel? 1 thru 39? The next one that I didn't see addressed is the 'mixing' part...what happens when you have Futa, Xtreme, Spectrum, Airtronics, and the Chinese show up together...regardless of numbers. Then there is this one: Ed asked :"Why don't you organize a test " Why would I? My hobby is to build and fly sailplanes, my job is to sell beach cleaners. Ed, why don't you ask the suppliers of 2.4 stuff to work for their pay? Why haven't you? You post assurances and promote as if you have some cash interest in 2.4. You repeat hearsay about a heli event with 500 pilots and then guess at how many TX's were turned on at the time, using it as some 'proof' that the deal is done. Do you have a clue as to how much parking alone it would take to host 500 pilots? I think before repeating that 'proof' you might want to investigate it instead of just repeating it. I know the source, that doesn't make it valid. Are you going to tell me that less than 40 guys had their TX's on all at once with 500 on the field? So far at best 2.4 sort of works, if the install is just right, if the models materials are cooperative and 'should' work fine with other 2.4 systems..as long as their aren't too many TX's on at one timebut no one has come up with control system to protect against or even determine who will be turning on in the pits. So what's the skinnyhow many of you realized that it is possible to be shot down with 2.4, that less than our current 50 TX's can be running at once and no one is too sure about how many of a mix of brand systems are safe? Was just wondering that's all :-)? Gordy Glenwood Springs Co See AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for winter. -- Kai Yang Novas Software, Inc. E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://cadlab.ece.ucsb.edu/~kyang MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: (CELL)805-296-9592 (OFFICE)408-467-7889 --
[RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?" Thanks for the 'assurances and guesses!"
Okay I expected the guesses and opinions and assurances. Let's take this one first: But, seriously, are you expecting over 40 sailplanes to be in the air at one time at a typical club field? Those who posted this implied 'everything will be okay' rationale don't attend big events where the problem has never been a conflict of planes in the air, we have clips and impounds and channel assignments for those. The guys who have 2.4 fell in love with them especially because they didn't "have to worry about pins, clips and impounds any more" . Now you can just pull up put your plane together, turn on and fly...even on Visalia Friday. There is a lot more than 50 guys with sailplanes wanting to fly, assemble, program etc on any given major contest day. On is on, regardless of if the models are in the air. ON means transmissions. How is the CD gonna handle 2.4 count and amounts when their owners feel they are safe to turn on at any time? Back to pins on this time they represent count instead of freq channel? 1 thru 39? The next one that I didn't see addressed is the 'mixing' part...what happens when you have Futa, Xtreme, Spectrum, Airtronics, and the Chinese show up together...regardless of numbers. Then there is this one: Ed asked :"Why don't you organize a test " Why would I? My hobby is to build and fly sailplanes, my job is to sell beach cleaners. Ed, why don't you ask the suppliers of 2.4 stuff to work for their pay? Why haven't you? You post assurances and promote as if you have some cash interest in 2.4. You repeat hearsay about a heli event with 500 pilots and then guess at how many TX's were turned on at the time, using it as some 'proof' that the deal is done. Do you have a clue as to how much parking alone it would take to host 500 pilots? I think before repeating that 'proof' you might want to investigate it instead of just repeating it. I know the source, that doesn't make it valid. Are you going to tell me that less than 40 guys had their TX's on all at once with 500 on the field? So far at best 2.4 sort of works, if the install is just right, if the models materials are cooperative and 'should' work fine with other 2.4 systems..as long as their aren't too many TX's on at one timebut no one has come up with control system to protect against or even determine who will be turning on in the pits. So what's the skinnyhow many of you realized that it is possible to be shot down with 2.4, that less than our current 50 TX's can be running at once and no one is too sure about how many of a mix of brand systems are safe? Was just wondering that's all :-)? Gordy Glenwood Springs Co **See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop000304)
Re: [RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?"
>Correct me if I am wrong but I believe the general modeler believed that with 2.4 all concerns for freq control were overMillions could all be on at once... (Gordy) Err, no, I distinctly remember posting more than once that there would be limits on the number of models in the air at one time. More importantly, I'd expect over a dozen models or so that the maximum range of the transmitters would be reduced. The other models didn't just vanish, you see, they became background noise. If there's a few other transmitters then the noise is minimal, if there's a lot -- well, adding noise is like reducing your transmitter's power. But, seriously, are you expecting over 40 sailplanes to be in the air at one time at a typical club field? Maybe a handlaunch MoM contest, but I can't see it happening with typical TD ships. This is what the designers worked with when they designed the radios -- there are always going to be imperfections and compromises in any design, the skill is making choices so the limitations aren't a problem to your expected user base. (Even the 72MHz stuff has problems, but if you work it as the makers intended then you don't normally come across them.) This, incidentally, has been the reservation that I've had with 2.4GHz kit -- so far the field has been dominated by the Marketing types and as far as they're concerned the kit is perfect (and the Moon is indeed made of green cheese); this information is useless so we have to wait for enough of us to be using the kit to get a user base of experience. Martin Usher RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?"
Hi Gordy! Good question about max number of 2.4 transmitters. I seem to recall we exchanged some notes on this. To answer your question, I never thought the number of concurrent transmitters was unlimited. Frequency control and channel conflict are handled by the radios, so I don't have to manage it manually. And all makers, except Futaba, have been pretty public about the max number supported by their particular implementation. And I doubt the average 2.4 user has given much, if any thought, to the max number of concurrent transmitters. I would bet the typical RC user will likely never see more than 20 transmitters in use at once unless they are contest flyers, which most are not. Even then, I would bet most contest flyers would rarely see the need for more than 40 on at once. The largest contest I have ever attended had 42 pilots, almost all were on 72 Mhz. In this case, there were no channel conflicts. Yet I doubt there were ever more than 20 sets on at one time. The Heli event was a big exception but even with that we don't know if there were even 50 transmitters on at once, only that there were 500 transmitters at the site. Until we start to see more events like this, it is going to be a while before we know if the max number of transmitters is even an issue, only that there are apparent limits by brand. Gordy, you attend a lot of contests, some of which are quite large. Why don't you organize a test at one of the upcoming contests. See if you have enough 2.4 sets to run a saturation test. I would be very pleased to hear the results of that test. Ed Anderson LISF > Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 21:15:00 EST > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Subject: "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?" > > > Number of systems that can be in use simultaneously > Spectrum Airtronics Futaba Xtreme > 39 38 ..(?) ? 120 > > Correct me if I am wrong but I believe the general modeler > believed that with 2.4 all concerns for freq control were overMillions > could all be on at once...there was the story about the huge heli event with > hundreds of attendees most enjoying the freedom of 2.4hmmmn. > > Did you all believe that the amount of 2.4 TXs on at once was > almost unlimited? > > Gordy
Re: [RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?"
The more that jump to 2.4, the less using 72. The "moron" factor is thereby reduced on 72!! I haven't had a problem on 72 and have only witnessed maybe 6 shootdowns in 40+ years of RC. Darwin - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Darwin N. Barrie ; Steve Schneider ; RCSE Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 8:19 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?" Would you rather fly where only one person can shoot you down or where it would take 40? (grin) 2.4 and lovin' every minute of it.. Brian - Original Message - From: Darwin N. Barrie To: Steve Schneider ; RCSE Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 9:14 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?" The only type of contest I know of that is pretty unlimited in amount of transmitters out is a soaring event. I have counted 32 planes in the air at Visalia. Could be more at times. I could be wrong but most events (powered aircraft) limit the amount of transmitters out (based on flight stations) at any one time. The IRCHA heli event may be an exception. I had heard the magic number for 2.4 is 41. Who knows for sure. That is one reason why I'm not ready to completely abandon 72 mhz. Darwin N. Barrie Chandler AZ
Re: [RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?"
Would you rather fly where only one person can shoot you down or where it would take 40? (grin) 2.4 and lovin' every minute of it.. Brian - Original Message - From: Darwin N. Barrie To: Steve Schneider ; RCSE Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 9:14 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?" The only type of contest I know of that is pretty unlimited in amount of transmitters out is a soaring event. I have counted 32 planes in the air at Visalia. Could be more at times. I could be wrong but most events (powered aircraft) limit the amount of transmitters out (based on flight stations) at any one time. The IRCHA heli event may be an exception. I had heard the magic number for 2.4 is 41. Who knows for sure. That is one reason why I'm not ready to completely abandon 72 mhz. Darwin N. Barrie Chandler AZ
Re: [RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?"
The only type of contest I know of that is pretty unlimited in amount of transmitters out is a soaring event. I have counted 32 planes in the air at Visalia. Could be more at times. I could be wrong but most events (powered aircraft) limit the amount of transmitters out (based on flight stations) at any one time. The IRCHA heli event may be an exception. I had heard the magic number for 2.4 is 41. Who knows for sure. That is one reason why I'm not ready to completely abandon 72 mhz. Darwin N. Barrie Chandler AZ - Original Message - From: Steve Schneider To: RCSE Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 8:02 PM Subject: Fwd: [RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?" Interesting stuff, Gordy. Now the manufacturors have to give us the lowdown on it. It doesn't sound like this would be so quickly embrassed by so many experienced fliers if the max number of fliers at any one time would be 39. And I got my AMA card a week ago. On Dec 25, 2007 8:15 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Number of systems that can be in use simultaneously > Spectrum Airtronics Futaba Xtreme > 39 38 (?) ? 120 > > > Got these from the XtremePowerSystems site (letting the Christmas turkey > settle to make room for pie and this was something I had been thinking about > for awhile, so decided to do a little Googling). > > Correct me if I am wrong but I believe the general modeler believed that > with 2.4 all concerns for freq control were overMillions could all be on > at once...there was the story about the huge heli event with hundreds of > attendees most enjoying the freedom of 2.4hmmmn. > > Did you all believe that the amount of 2.4 TXs on at once was almost > unlimited? > > Here's another wrench in the freq paradise workswhat about a mix of > brands and systems? Some using two channels at once, some hopping around. > > Regardless of the information encoding, radio waves are still radio waves, > and can be shaded, mixed and diluted. > > How do you control 100+ contestants 2.4 TX's when there isn't any channel > assignments? Impound every TX and only let up to 39 of one brand at a time? > From 50 channels controlled to 38 hopefully safe? > > Just wondering, if anyone else is wondering...oh yeah Merry Chrismas! > > I got my new AMA card...you? > > Gordy > > > > See AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for winter. -- Steve Schneider Buffalo Grove, IL SOAR Club -- Steve Schneider Buffalo Grove, IL SOAR Club
Fwd: [RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?"
Interesting stuff, Gordy. Now the manufacturors have to give us the lowdown on it. It doesn't sound like this would be so quickly embrassed by so many experienced fliers if the max number of fliers at any one time would be 39. And I got my AMA card a week ago. On Dec 25, 2007 8:15 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Number of systems that can be in use simultaneously > Spectrum Airtronics Futaba Xtreme > 39 38 (?) ? 120 > > > Got these from the XtremePowerSystems site (letting the Christmas turkey > settle to make room for pie and this was something I had been thinking about > for awhile, so decided to do a little Googling). > > Correct me if I am wrong but I believe the general modeler believed that > with 2.4 all concerns for freq control were overMillions could all be on > at once...there was the story about the huge heli event with hundreds of > attendees most enjoying the freedom of 2.4hmmmn. > > Did you all believe that the amount of 2.4 TXs on at once was almost > unlimited? > > Here's another wrench in the freq paradise workswhat about a mix of > brands and systems? Some using two channels at once, some hopping around. > > Regardless of the information encoding, radio waves are still radio waves, > and can be shaded, mixed and diluted. > > How do you control 100+ contestants 2.4 TX's when there isn't any channel > assignments? Impound every TX and only let up to 39 of one brand at a time? > From 50 channels controlled to 38 hopefully safe? > > Just wondering, if anyone else is wondering...oh yeah Merry Chrismas! > > I got my new AMA card...you? > > Gordy > > > > See AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for winter. -- Steve Schneider Buffalo Grove, IL SOAR Club -- Steve Schneider Buffalo Grove, IL SOAR Club
[RCSE] "Jack Benny is 39 and 2.4 is 38?"
Number of systems that can be in use simultaneously Spectrum Airtronics Futaba Xtreme 39 38 (?)? 120 Got these from the XtremePowerSystems site (letting the Christmas turkey settle to make room for pie and this was something I had been thinking about for awhile, so decided to do a little Googling). Correct me if I am wrong but I believe the general modeler believed that with 2.4 all concerns for freq control were overMillions could all be on at once...there was the story about the huge heli event with hundreds of attendees most enjoying the freedom of 2.4hmmmn. Did you all believe that the amount of 2.4 TXs on at once was almost unlimited? Here's another wrench in the freq paradise workswhat about a mix of brands and systems? Some using two channels at once, some hopping around. Regardless of the information encoding, radio waves are still radio waves, and can be shaded, mixed and diluted. How do you control 100+ contestants 2.4 TX's when there isn't any channel assignments? Impound every TX and only let up to 39 of one brand at a time? >From 50 channels controlled to 38 hopefully safe? Just wondering, if anyone else is wondering...oh yeah Merry Chrismas! I got my new AMA card...you? Gordy **See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop000304)
