Re: [RCSE] National Fun Fly - NOT
What ever the LSF folks decide is 100% with me. Dr Dan, A Sky Bench Challenger piloted by Tom Scully was fourth at the NATS - RES. He also won the Mid South RES this year with his Challenger. Tom has a cool way of flap disengagement for RES events. I'll be waiting for you to show up with yours. Practice ... Practice Practice... Ray Hayes http://www.skybench.com Home of Wood Crafters - Original Message - From: Danny C Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: soaring@airage.com Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 10:35 PM Subject: RE: [RCSE] National Fun Fly - NOT Jim Monaco Said almost everything that I wanted to, just that he said it much nicer that I would have. First off the highly paid staff of the LSF really earns every cent they get for putting on the NATS ( do you guys even make Cent's???) and every thank you ve can say to them. Every year I have been to the NATS I have always been taken back at how well the NATS is run, so when I hear some self serving person putting down this event just to be able to elevate them self (in there own mind that is) or some product they are trying to sell it really gets me to start to not have nice thoughts about them. As to the NATS Fun Fly driving all that way for a fun fly well COUNT ME OUT I would not waste my time. I would just stay home and fly with my friends and have more fun and allot less travel. Now the wood crafter's is another story...It is a contest... Also the chance to pick on Ray Hay's well that is priceless in my book :^) Also, at least once a year around this time there is always talk of killing this event or adding this one, or moving this to that time slot. I myself admit that there would be no tears from me if two meter went the way of the standard class, in fact just to be a real stinker I would like to see standard class come back and 2M go away...lol. What can I say living and flying at 5000 + feet does that to you. What keeps me coming back to any contest is. Competition is the glue that binds us together, and it is a life time glue. For some strange reason it just works this way, A little POed Dr. Dan Williams Even if I still can not get a full breath yet...lol ~ ~~~ From: Jim Monaco I'm missing something here. The NATS is the national championship because we say it is. Why do we want to thow the baby out with the bathwater. If you want a national funfly - then organize one. There are 51 other weeks you can do whatever you want at the national flying site. A lot of people work VERY hard to put on an event the size of the nats and apparently a lot of people LIKE to attend the event. Your statements about declining participation are not true. Based on the statistics for the last 2 nats, participation is up in all of the events except HL. Your statement about 20-40 pilots flying any given day is ludicrous. There are 160 registered entrants and 125 pilots participated in Unlimited! While some people (including me) have opinions on how the event should be organized and what should be included, ultimately the LSF makes those decisons with our input. If YOU want a national funfly - then YOU organize one and see if they come! I don't see the need to trash a perfectly good event that, in terms of numbers of soaring pilots, is in the top 3 of all soaring events in the country. I understand that YOU don't like soaring competitions, but it is not necessary to criticize those that do. You refer to diehard competition pilots as if it's a bad thing. I understand your agenda is to promote scale soaring and I wish you great success, but it does not have to come at the expense of other facets of the hobby. You appear to think that those that like Launch and Land competitions are odd, but I'm sure that there are some that think that worrying about how my cute little pilot figure looks in my scale glider is a little odd too! Let people participate in whatever events they enjoy - it's no skin off your nose. If you provide the alternatives, perhaps you are right and competition soaring as we know it will die the ugly death you predict. Just don't expect others to implement your vision of true happiness. Jim Monaco Organizer of the US F3J Team Selections... Just another launch and land contest!!! --- John Derstine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then as I said originally, why pretend it is a national championship? RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe
RE: RE: [RCSE] National Fun Fly, error
Once again: Along the way, some one else changed the message header to national fun fly I replied to their message without realizing that it would be inferred I was advocating this, I am not lobbying for a National Fun Fly, I did that for 5 years in Elmira for scale sailplanes (1995-2000). No need to do it again, Pete Goldsmith is doing a great job at Monticello with the JR Aertotow. JD Endless Mountain Models http://www.scalesoaring.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] National Fun Fly - NOT - NOT
In a message dated 8/3/2005 8:36:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What keeps me coming back to any contest is. "Competition is the glue that binds us together, and it is a life time glue. For some strange reason it just works this way,"A little POed Dr. Dan, I agree with you and Jim on your perspective on the NATS. I just finished 12 days at Muncie participating in 13 competitive events that required 9 different models. No where in the world can you get so much action in such a well organized environment. I have attended the NATS for 10 years (9 in Muncie) and have enjoy it more each year. The LSF and NEAC (electric) SIGS do a great job organizing and running the events. For some events it is a fun fly for me as I am not competitive with Tom, Daryl, Josh, Mike (s) and many others. It is the small things like wearing the "I beat Gordy" badge after the F3J event that make it fun. The conversations with new and old friends and the endless stories add to the attraction and will bring me back next year. Fun fly? I don't understand the concept. Don RichmondSan Diego, CA (Albuquerque, NM today)[EMAIL PROTECTED]hilaunch.com
Re: [RCSE] National Fun Fly - NOT - NOT
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is the small things like wearing the I beat Gordy badge after the F3J event A badge that was earned by 84% of eligible F3J entrants. The remaining 16% are condemned to listen to Gordy's advice until next year. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] National Fun Fly - NOT - NOT
Heck Don...For you it's always "fun" to fly! It was great seeing you at the NATS... -Sheldon- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 7:17 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; soaring@airage.comCc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [RCSE] National Fun Fly - NOT - NOT In a message dated 8/3/2005 8:36:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What keeps me coming back to any contest is. "Competition is the glue that binds us together, and it is a life time glue. For some strange reason it just works this way,"A little POed Dr. Dan, I agree with you and Jim on your perspective on the NATS. I just finished 12 days at Muncie participating in 13 competitive events that required 9 different models. No where in the world can you get so much action in such a well organized environment. I have attended the NATS for 10 years (9 in Muncie) and have enjoy it more each year. The LSF and NEAC (electric) SIGS do a great job organizing and running the events. For some events it is a fun fly for me as I am not competitive with Tom, Daryl, Josh, Mike (s) and many others. It is the small things like wearing the "I beat Gordy" badge after the F3J event that make it fun. The conversations with new and old friends and the endless stories add to the attraction and will bring me back next year. Fun fly? I don't understand the concept. Don RichmondSan Diego, CA (Albuquerque, NM today)[EMAIL PROTECTED]hilaunch.com
RE: [RCSE] National Fun Fly - NOT - NOT
Just a reminder...Don't forget...Butch was in that 84%!!! -Original Message- From: tony estep [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 9:17 PM To: soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] National Fun Fly - NOT - NOT --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is the small things like wearing the I beat Gordy badge after the F3J event A badge that was earned by 84% of eligible F3J entrants. The remaining 16% are condemned to listen to Gordy's advice until next year. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] National Fun Fly
Woodcrafters is very limited. Wood built up planes only. No Duo Discus' allowed. No Ava, no Soprano, no Supra, etc. Tom - Original Message - From: Michael Lachowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TJB [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: John Derstine [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Soaring List' soaring@airage.com Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 10:32 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] National Fun Fly Isn't Woodcrafters kind of a fun fly? It already exists. TJB wrote: In the majority of flying clubs in our area, only a very few are seriously interested in competition. Out of 20 club members, last year, I was the only one who showed up for our ESL contest on the second day. Lancaster has the same problem. I would venture to say, if there was a National Fun Fly for a week, there might be a good turn out. It doesn't even have to be on the same schedule as the NATS. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] National Fun Fly
Don't you think that the pilots that landed out in Unlimited on the 1st day treated the second day as a fun fly? It was for me. (There is no dropout round.) When your not competing in the top 20 it's just a fun fly. If you would take a poll, most pilots would say, I'm here to have fun. Don't understand why a fun fly would gather more people. You either want to fly with other people or you don't. Some pilots are just introverts that fly their own air. Steve Meyer SOAR LSF IV At 05:23 PM 8/2/2005, TJB wrote: In the majority of flying clubs in our area, only a very few are seriously interested in competition. Out of 20 club members, last year, I was the only one who showed up for our ESL contest on the second day. Lancaster has the same problem. I would venture to say, if there was a National Fun Fly for a week, there might be a good turn out. It doesn't even have to be on the same schedule as the NATS. T TG 32 Mount View Dr Afton, VA 22920 540 943-3356 fax 943-4178 - Original Message - From: John Derstine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'TJB' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Soaring List' soaring@airage.com Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 6:06 PM Subject: RE: [RCSE] One full day of RES -- XC/Scale every year Now there is an idea, basically what I was getting at, contests and fun every year. De-emphasize the contest aspect as the die hards know who they are, and will always show up, we need to attract the rest, the guys who don't always come, who care less about rigorous competition, who will support the National Flying site with their presence if it is relevant to their interests, not the minority of top level competition pilots. JD Endless Mountain Models http://www.scalesoaring.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: TJB [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 5:54 PM To: Soaring List Subject: Re: [RCSE] One full day of RES -- XC/Scale every year would have Monday for 2M, Tues and Wed for Open, Thurs would be RES, Fri morning hand launch and Friday afternoon NOS. Events like F3B, F3J, X-Country and Scale would be on the weekend before or after. JE Would probably be the end of NOS. Just not that many flying it. It won't be long and NOS will be 30 year old planes. It is so limited. If they set the category for 20 year old planes (more like it was when it started), it would open up the field for more fliers. I would come an extra couple days early if they had XC and Scale every year. It doesn't even have to be a contest, just two days set aside at the beginning of the schedule. T With the introduction of production planes like the Ava and the Topaz, RES is now the fastest growing segment of plane in this neck of the woods. Where it used to be just a few people it is now nearly even with the amount of Open class entries. There are several fliers that have won Open contests with these planes and it isn't a fluke. Over the last year I have consistently scored better with my Topaz than with my Open class plane, primarily because of the ability to just drop it on the spot and have it stick. They are so light they don't carry too much momentum. They thermal easier, the handling is excellent, they just don't like as much wind, but then again, they can successfully be ballasted. In the big monthly contests SWSA holds, the number of Open class planes is probably around 30, RES is about 20 and 2M is about 10. It seems completely upside down to me that 2M at the NATS gets 2 days while RES gets 1/2 a day. Additionally, the awards banquet is held before RES and NOS are even flown, pushing it down further from a competitive event to more of a fun fly afterthought. I -- Erickson Architects John R. Erickson, AIA From: Jim McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:34:52 -0500 To: soaring@airage.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [RCSE] One full day of RES What's amazing is that the United States is the only country the flies 2M. I think if you took a poll at the Nats those entered in the event only fly it to occupy time until Unlimited starts. The latest phrase coined at this years event was Do you know what flies worse than a 2M? Answer: Nothing. In general most prefer the bigger models and very few clubs fly 2M on a regular basis. Let the flaming begin. Jim McCarthy RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based
RE: [RCSE] National Fun Fly
Then as I said originally, why pretend it is a national championship? Call it what it is (your words not mine) or revise it to reflect the current trends. Hey if everyone is happy the way it is, then me too, but apparently there are a lot of people who would like to see a change, either exclude this or include that, or have two days of this not that. There is a trend to utilize the site for less competitive competitions ie, Scale aerotow XC, and Woodcrafters, and the April DARTS aerotow, why not embrace the larger agenda, which is to get more people to the NATS, and the National flying site. As I also said, the diehards who think hard edge competition is the only way to have fun are increasingly in the minority. Think about it, how many competitors attend the soaring NATS? 80? And on any given day there are maybe 20-40 pilots flying at a huge flying site at any one time. How many R/C non competitive types exist? hundreds? Thousands? The math does not support the current site usage, if the point is to get more people to Muncie, then you will most likely see more less competitive events at the Muncie site. The reason is that competitions are labor intensive and time intensive, Semi competitions and true Fun fly events, not saying we need to completely replace competition, which is not my thrust here, but the fact remains that by mixing the two you might get more people getting a chance to fly per event week, draw more attendees, both flying and spectators to the NATS. Vendors and industry exhibitors might be more incline to display and participate because of the increased product placement exposure. JD Endless Mountain Models http://www.scalesoaring.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Steve Meyer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 7:59 AM To: TJB; soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] National Fun Fly Don't you think that the pilots that landed out in Unlimited on the 1st day treated the second day as a fun fly? It was for me. (There is no dropout round.) When your not competing in the top 20 it's just a fun fly. If you would take a poll, most pilots would say, I'm here to have fun. Don't understand why a fun fly would gather more people. You either want to fly with other people or you don't. Some pilots are just introverts that fly their own air. Steve Meyer SOAR LSF IV At 05:23 PM 8/2/2005, TJB wrote: In the majority of flying clubs in our area, only a very few are seriously interested in competition. Out of 20 club members, last year, I was the only one who showed up for our ESL contest on the second day. Lancaster has the same problem. I would venture to say, if there was a National Fun Fly for a week, there might be a good turn out. It doesn't even have to be on the same schedule as the NATS. T TG 32 Mount View Dr Afton, VA 22920 540 943-3356 fax 943-4178 - Original Message - From: John Derstine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'TJB' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Soaring List' soaring@airage.com Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 6:06 PM Subject: RE: [RCSE] One full day of RES -- XC/Scale every year Now there is an idea, basically what I was getting at, contests and fun every year. De-emphasize the contest aspect as the die hards know who they are, and will always show up, we need to attract the rest, the guys who don't always come, who care less about rigorous competition, who will support the National Flying site with their presence if it is relevant to their interests, not the minority of top level competition pilots. JD Endless Mountain Models http://www.scalesoaring.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: TJB [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 5:54 PM To: Soaring List Subject: Re: [RCSE] One full day of RES -- XC/Scale every year would have Monday for 2M, Tues and Wed for Open, Thurs would be RES, Fri morning hand launch and Friday afternoon NOS. Events like F3B, F3J, X-Country and Scale would be on the weekend before or after. JE Would probably be the end of NOS. Just not that many flying it. It won't be long and NOS will be 30 year old planes. It is so limited. If they set the category for 20 year old planes (more like it was when it started), it would open up the field for more fliers. I would come an extra couple days early if they had XC and Scale every year. It doesn't even have to be a contest, just two days set aside at the beginning of the schedule. T With the introduction of production planes like the Ava and the Topaz, RES is now the fastest growing segment of plane in this neck of the woods. Where it used to be just a few people it is now nearly even with the amount of Open class entries. There are several fliers that have won Open contests with these planes and it isn't a fluke. Over the last year I have consistently scored
Re: [RCSE] National Fun Fly
There's room for all in this little community. It's not a zero sum game. Having won an event at NATS, I kind of support the idea. (OK, it was only electric sailplane.) I do think if there is to be a discussion regarding the future of NATS/AMA flying site usage, there ought to be a motion to consider more than one AMA event site. Muncie is not exactly an appealing destination, while it may be closer to the population center of the US it is by no means close to most. It's a huge trip for anybody on either coast. Consider the Scale Masters event. It travels around the nation. More people get to see it, more get to participate, it doesn't need to own a damned thing. The site itself is OK, but really how much do we need? Surely arrangements can be made with a few sod farmers around the nation to create a symbiotic arrangement for AMA or another modeler's group to have a big open field that can be used for RC events too. The museum at Muncie is nice, but it is surely not enough to make me want to drive any distance out of my way. Perhaps leadership of LSF could comment on this? Openly? Regards, Lee Estingoy Overland Park, KS - Original Message - From: John Derstine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Steve Meyer' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'TJB' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; soaring@airage.com Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 2:35 PM Subject: RE: [RCSE] National Fun Fly Then as I said originally, why pretend it is a national championship? Call it what it is (your words not mine) or revise it to reflect the current trends. Hey if everyone is happy the way it is, then me too, but apparently there are a lot of people who would like to see a change, either exclude this or include that, or have two days of this not that. There is a trend to utilize the site for less competitive competitions ie, Scale aerotow XC, and Woodcrafters, and the April DARTS aerotow, why not embrace the larger agenda, which is to get more people to the NATS, and the National flying site. As I also said, the diehards who think hard edge competition is the only way to have fun are increasingly in the minority. Think about it, how many competitors attend the soaring NATS? 80? And on any given day there are maybe 20-40 pilots flying at a huge flying site at any one time. How many R/C non competitive types exist? hundreds? Thousands? The math does not support the current site usage, if the point is to get more people to Muncie, then you will most likely see more less competitive events at the Muncie site. The reason is that competitions are labor intensive and time intensive, Semi competitions and true Fun fly events, not saying we need to completely replace competition, which is not my thrust here, but the fact remains that by mixing the two you might get more people getting a chance to fly per event week, draw more attendees, both flying and spectators to the NATS. Vendors and industry exhibitors might be more incline to display and participate because of the increased product placement exposure. JD Endless Mountain Models http://www.scalesoaring.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Steve Meyer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 7:59 AM To: TJB; soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] National Fun Fly Don't you think that the pilots that landed out in Unlimited on the 1st day treated the second day as a fun fly? It was for me. (There is no dropout round.) When your not competing in the top 20 it's just a fun fly. If you would take a poll, most pilots would say, I'm here to have fun. Don't understand why a fun fly would gather more people. You either want to fly with other people or you don't. Some pilots are just introverts that fly their own air. Steve Meyer SOAR LSF IV At 05:23 PM 8/2/2005, TJB wrote: In the majority of flying clubs in our area, only a very few are seriously interested in competition. Out of 20 club members, last year, I was the only one who showed up for our ESL contest on the second day. Lancaster has the same problem. I would venture to say, if there was a National Fun Fly for a week, there might be a good turn out. It doesn't even have to be on the same schedule as the NATS. T TG 32 Mount View Dr Afton, VA 22920 540 943-3356 fax 943-4178 - Original Message - From: John Derstine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'TJB' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Soaring List' soaring@airage.com Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 6:06 PM Subject: RE: [RCSE] One full day of RES -- XC/Scale every year Now there is an idea, basically what I was getting at, contests and fun every year. De-emphasize the contest aspect as the die hards know who they are, and will always show up, we need to attract the rest, the guys who don't always come, who care less about rigorous competition, who will support the National Flying site with their presence if it is relevant to their interests, not the minority of top level competition pilots. JD Endless
RE: [RCSE] National Fun Fly - NOT
I'm missing something here. The Nats is the national championship because we say it is. Why do we want to thow the baby out with the bathwater. If you want a national funfly - then organize one. There are 51 other weeks you can do whatever you want at the national flying site. A lot of people work VERY hard to put on an event the size of the nats and apparently a lot of people LIKE to attend the event. Your statements about declining participation are not true. Based on the statistics for the last 2 nats, participation is up in all of the events except HL. Your statement about 20-40 pilots flying any given day is ludicrous. There are 160 registered entrants and 125 pilots participated in Unlimited! While some people (including me) have opinions on how the event should be organized and what should be included, ultimately the LSF makes those decisons with our input. If YOU want a national funfly - then YOU organize one and see if they come! I don't see the need to trash a perfectly good event that, in terms of numbers of soaring pilots, is in the top 3 of all soaring events in the country. I understand that YOU don't like soaring competitions, but it is not necessary to criticize those that do. You refer to diehard competition pilots as if it's a bad thing. I understand your agenda is to promote scale soaring and I wish you great success, but it does not have to come at the expense of other facets of the hobby. You appear to think that those that like Launch and Land competitions are odd, but I'm sure that there are some that think that worrying about how my cute little pilot figure looks in my scale glider is a little odd too! Let people participate in whatever events they enjoy - it's no skin off your nose. If you provide the alternatives, perhaps you are right and competition soaring as we know it will die the ugly death you predict. Just don't expect others to implement your vision of true happiness. Jim Monaco Organizer of the US F3J Team Selections... Just another launch and land contest!!! --- John Derstine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then as I said originally, why pretend it is a national championship? Call it what it is (your words not mine) or revise it to reflect the current trends. Hey if everyone is happy the way it is, then me too, but apparently there are a lot of people who would like to see a change, either exclude this or include that, or have two days of this not that. There is a trend to utilize the site for less competitive competitions ie, Scale aerotow XC, and Woodcrafters, and the April DARTS aerotow, why not embrace the larger agenda, which is to get more people to the NATS, and the National flying site. As I also said, the diehards who think hard edge competition is the only way to have fun are increasingly in the minority. Think about it, how many competitors attend the soaring NATS? 80? And on any given day there are maybe 20-40 pilots flying at a huge flying site at any one time. How many R/C non competitive types exist? hundreds? Thousands? The math does not support the current site usage, if the point is to get more people to Muncie, then you will most likely see more less competitive events at the Muncie site. The reason is that competitions are labor intensive and time intensive, Semi competitions and true Fun fly events, not saying we need to completely replace competition, which is not my thrust here, but the fact remains that by mixing the two you might get more people getting a chance to fly per event week, draw more attendees, both flying and spectators to the NATS. Vendors and industry exhibitors might be more incline to display and participate because of the increased product placement exposure. JD Endless Mountain Models http://www.scalesoaring.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Steve Meyer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 7:59 AM To: TJB; soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] National Fun Fly Don't you think that the pilots that landed out in Unlimited on the 1st day treated the second day as a fun fly? It was for me. (There is no dropout round.) When your not competing in the top 20 it's just a fun fly. If you would take a poll, most pilots would say, I'm here to have fun. Don't understand why a fun fly would gather more people. You either want to fly with other people or you don't. Some pilots are just introverts that fly their own air. Steve Meyer SOAR LSF IV At 05:23 PM 8/2/2005, TJB wrote: In the majority of flying clubs in our area, only a very few are seriously interested in competition. Out of 20 club members, last year, I was the only one who showed up for our ESL contest on the second day. Lancaster has the same problem. I would venture to say, if there was a National Fun Fly for a week, there might be a good turn out. It doesn't even have
Re: RE: [RCSE] National Fun Fly
John, Just a short note to straighten up some numbers you used. Soaring had 153 regisitered pilots and 408 total entries for the Nats(2.3 entries/pilot). Electric looks more like what you are talking about than soaring and the AMA takes notice that we have the second or third largest group at the IAC for the Nats(pattern has the largest number I believe). You made the comment about Woodcrafters and the Dayton Aerotow, half of WC is competition and the Dayton event does good to have a few fliers attending (6-12 usually), still very fun, but very small. I believe your idea for a NFF has merit, but, I think that you need to pull a Ray Hayes and step up and take the bull by the horns. Get the IAC reserved and put your time on the line, which I know you do already, and as they say in Iowa, they will come I would think. More comments to be had about the Nats at a later time. Marc Gellart 2005 SoaringNats ED RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] National Fun Fly - NOT
Any rc soaring contest is a good one. the best are the ones we attend and enjoy and keep going back to year after year. As far as the NATS are concerned, the posts to this list for ten days starting after the AMA/LSF contest ended (this past Friday for those that don't know ) should be filled with thanks to the hard working guys and gals that make the contest happen. What is the best part of a contest . the camaraderie of coarse. Ray Hayes http://www.skybench.com Home of Wood Crafters - Original Message - From: Jim Monaco [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: RCSE soaring@airage.com Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 4:30 PM Subject: RE: [RCSE] National Fun Fly - NOT I'm missing something here. The Nats is the national championship because we say it is. Why do we want to thow the baby out with the bathwater. If you want a national funfly - then organize one. There are 51 other weeks you can do whatever you want at the national flying site. A lot of people work VERY hard to put on an event the size of the nats and apparently a lot of people LIKE to attend the event. Your statements about declining participation are not true. Based on the statistics for the last 2 nats, participation is up in all of the events except HL. Your statement about 20-40 pilots flying any given day is ludicrous. There are 160 registered entrants and 125 pilots participated in Unlimited! While some people (including me) have opinions on how the event should be organized and what should be included, ultimately the LSF makes those decisons with our input. If YOU want a national funfly - then YOU organize one and see if they come! I don't see the need to trash a perfectly good event that, in terms of numbers of soaring pilots, is in the top 3 of all soaring events in the country. I understand that YOU don't like soaring competitions, but it is not necessary to criticize those that do. You refer to diehard competition pilots as if it's a bad thing. I understand your agenda is to promote scale soaring and I wish you great success, but it does not have to come at the expense of other facets of the hobby. You appear to think that those that like Launch and Land competitions are odd, but I'm sure that there are some that think that worrying about how my cute little pilot figure looks in my scale glider is a little odd too! Let people participate in whatever events they enjoy - it's no skin off your nose. If you provide the alternatives, perhaps you are right and competition soaring as we know it will die the ugly death you predict. Just don't expect others to implement your vision of true happiness. Jim Monaco Organizer of the US F3J Team Selections... Just another launch and land contest!!! --- John Derstine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then as I said originally, why pretend it is a national championship? Call it what it is (your words not mine) or revise it to reflect the current trends. Hey if everyone is happy the way it is, then me too, but apparently there are a lot of people who would like to see a change, either exclude this or include that, or have two days of this not that. There is a trend to utilize the site for less competitive competitions ie, Scale aerotow XC, and Woodcrafters, and the April DARTS aerotow, why not embrace the larger agenda, which is to get more people to the NATS, and the National flying site. As I also said, the diehards who think hard edge competition is the only way to have fun are increasingly in the minority. Think about it, how many competitors attend the soaring NATS? 80? And on any given day there are maybe 20-40 pilots flying at a huge flying site at any one time. How many R/C non competitive types exist? hundreds? Thousands? The math does not support the current site usage, if the point is to get more people to Muncie, then you will most likely see more less competitive events at the Muncie site. The reason is that competitions are labor intensive and time intensive, Semi competitions and true Fun fly events, not saying we need to completely replace competition, which is not my thrust here, but the fact remains that by mixing the two you might get more people getting a chance to fly per event week, draw more attendees, both flying and spectators to the NATS. Vendors and industry exhibitors might be more incline to display and participate because of the increased product placement exposure. JD Endless Mountain Models http://www.scalesoaring.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Steve Meyer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 7:59 AM To: TJB; soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] National Fun Fly Don't you think that the pilots that landed out in Unlimited on the 1st day treated the second day as a fun fly? It was for me. (There is no dropout round.) When your not competing in the top 20
RE: RE: [RCSE] National Fun Fly
Marc and others: 150 registered, my error, but I did put a question mark after my number... it was a question. How many showed up? Counting multiple entries is like having dead people vote in a Chicago election, 150 is 150. :-) Anyway regardless of semantics, the numbers for NAT soaring attendance in no way reflects the potential pool of soaring pilots, my point. Also not to be misinterpreted, I love the fact that there is a NATs, that people do in fact work hard to produce it, and contest flying is a good thing if you enjoy it. What I see is the potential for a paradigm shift in the way we look at the NATS. As I guessed, many will object to any notion of change, it's human nature, it makes us uncomfortable, but looking at ways to boost all R/C soaring, not just the 80 pilots who fly TD at the NATs, is what I am talking about. I personally feel, and it is just my opinion, that there is room for several kinds of events at the NATS drawing more to the venue all at once. Letting them see first hand the competition, who knows some fun flyer guys or spectators might want to play TD or F3b. It's all about numbers, exposure and having an inclusive outlook, not an exclusive one. How to balance the so called fun flying or semi competitive events with the competition. Good question I guess. What is the goal or mission statement for the NATS? Is there one? I placed second in scale soaring at the NATS in 1999. Does it have any real significance? It is a nifty pc of wood, but since I was one of 5 pilots competing, it hardly has relevance to my flying skill. Granted an extreme example, but the point is the NATS has no real bearing on National standing just who won a single event in Muncie in July, no elimination series, no qualifying, just one other contest. I am just loving the discussion, and my comments have prompted some to speak out. it is only a forum, not a meeting of the AMA executive council. I don't have answers, just ideas and opinions like everyone else. The annual what events we should drop from the NATS talk got me going. The fact is attendance for any event will affect its likely hood of surviving, so my thought was if you are going to drop two meter, or hand launch, plus the way to controversial NOS discussion, what is in the wings waiting, how can the site be optimized and still have a NATs, one that draws 300 instead of 100. Does the NATS have to be The National Championship that some say it is because we say it is? Not a reason in my mind. Can it evolve to be a soaring showcase and National exposition of soaring as a community, not only a competition? Some made a big deal about one JoJo coming from Europe this year, why not make it jojo and company, an international invitational contest? Can we have a foreign national as US champion? Hey if you invite one... And so on... JD PS: For those saying put my money where my mouth is, I paid my dues, gave my efforts to organizing major events, submitting and passing rules change proposals for NATS events, for over 15 years, I feel somewhat qualified to talk on the subject. Not bragging, just been there done that, and know the realities of it. Endless Mountain Models http://www.scalesoaring.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Marc Gellart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 5:35 PM To: John Derstine; 'Steve Meyer'; 'TJB'; soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: RE: [RCSE] National Fun Fly John, Just a short note to straighten up some numbers you used. Soaring had 153 regisitered pilots and 408 total entries for the Nats(2.3 entries/pilot). Electric looks more like what you are talking about than soaring and the AMA takes notice that we have the second or third largest group at the IAC for the Nats(pattern has the largest number I believe). You made the comment about Woodcrafters and the Dayton Aerotow, half of WC is competition and the Dayton event does good to have a few fliers RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] National Fun Fly - NOT
Jim Monaco Said almost everything that I wanted to, just that he said it much nicer that I would have. First off the highly paid staff of the LSF really earns every cent they get for putting on the NATS ( do you guys even make Cent's???) and every thank you ve can say to them. Every year I have been to the NATS I have always been taken back at how well the NATS is run, so when I hear some self serving person putting down this event just to be able to elevate them self (in there own mind that is) or some product they are trying to sell it really gets me to start to not have nice thoughts about them. As to the NATS Fun Fly driving all that way for a fun fly well COUNT ME OUT I would not waste my time. I would just stay home and fly with my friends and have more fun and allot less travel. Now the wood crafter's is another story...It is a contest... Also the chance to pick on Ray Hay's well that is priceless in my book :^) Also, at least once a year around this time there is always talk of killing this event or adding this one, or moving this to that time slot. I myself admit that there would be no tears from me if two meter went the way of the standard class, in fact just to be a real stinker I would like to see standard class come back and 2M go away...lol. What can I say living and flying at 5000 + feet does that to you. What keeps me coming back to any contest is. Competition is the glue that binds us together, and it is a life time glue. For some strange reason it just works this way, A little POed Dr. Dan Williams Even if I still can not get a full breath yet...lol ~ ~~~ From: Jim Monaco I'm missing something here. The NATS is the national championship because we say it is. Why do we want to thow the baby out with the bathwater. If you want a national funfly - then organize one. There are 51 other weeks you can do whatever you want at the national flying site. A lot of people work VERY hard to put on an event the size of the nats and apparently a lot of people LIKE to attend the event. Your statements about declining participation are not true. Based on the statistics for the last 2 nats, participation is up in all of the events except HL. Your statement about 20-40 pilots flying any given day is ludicrous. There are 160 registered entrants and 125 pilots participated in Unlimited! While some people (including me) have opinions on how the event should be organized and what should be included, ultimately the LSF makes those decisons with our input. If YOU want a national funfly - then YOU organize one and see if they come! I don't see the need to trash a perfectly good event that, in terms of numbers of soaring pilots, is in the top 3 of all soaring events in the country. I understand that YOU don't like soaring competitions, but it is not necessary to criticize those that do. You refer to diehard competition pilots as if it's a bad thing. I understand your agenda is to promote scale soaring and I wish you great success, but it does not have to come at the expense of other facets of the hobby. You appear to think that those that like Launch and Land competitions are odd, but I'm sure that there are some that think that worrying about how my cute little pilot figure looks in my scale glider is a little odd too! Let people participate in whatever events they enjoy - it's no skin off your nose. If you provide the alternatives, perhaps you are right and competition soaring as we know it will die the ugly death you predict. Just don't expect others to implement your vision of true happiness. Jim Monaco Organizer of the US F3J Team Selections... Just another launch and land contest!!! --- John Derstine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then as I said originally, why pretend it is a national championship? RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: RE: [RCSE] National Fun Fly
Easy to say when you don't play the game... fly UNL / 2m / RES or a F3x event at Nats and show us were you rank amongst us, and then tell me it has no real bearing. I'd be pumping up the masses for the scale X/C event next year if I were you... 8-) At 08:02 PM 8/3/2005, John Derstine wrote: Granted an extreme example, but the point is the NATS has no real bearing on National standing just who won a single event in Muncie in July, no elimination series, no qualifying, just one other contest. Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] National Fun Fly
In the majority of flying clubs in our area, only a very few are seriously interested in competition. Out of 20 club members, last year, I was the only one who showed up for our ESL contest on the second day. Lancaster has the same problem. I would venture to say, if there was a National Fun Fly for a week, there might be a good turn out. It doesn't even have to be on the same schedule as the NATS. T TG 32 Mount View Dr Afton, VA 22920 540 943-3356 fax 943-4178 - Original Message - From: John Derstine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'TJB' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Soaring List' soaring@airage.com Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 6:06 PM Subject: RE: [RCSE] One full day of RES -- XC/Scale every year Now there is an idea, basically what I was getting at, contests and fun every year. De-emphasize the contest aspect as the die hards know who they are, and will always show up, we need to attract the rest, the guys who don't always come, who care less about rigorous competition, who will support the National Flying site with their presence if it is relevant to their interests, not the minority of top level competition pilots. JD Endless Mountain Models http://www.scalesoaring.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: TJB [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 5:54 PM To: Soaring List Subject: Re: [RCSE] One full day of RES -- XC/Scale every year would have Monday for 2M, Tues and Wed for Open, Thurs would be RES, Fri morning hand launch and Friday afternoon NOS. Events like F3B, F3J, X-Country and Scale would be on the weekend before or after. JE Would probably be the end of NOS. Just not that many flying it. It won't be long and NOS will be 30 year old planes. It is so limited. If they set the category for 20 year old planes (more like it was when it started), it would open up the field for more fliers. I would come an extra couple days early if they had XC and Scale every year. It doesn't even have to be a contest, just two days set aside at the beginning of the schedule. T With the introduction of production planes like the Ava and the Topaz, RES is now the fastest growing segment of plane in this neck of the woods. Where it used to be just a few people it is now nearly even with the amount of Open class entries. There are several fliers that have won Open contests with these planes and it isn't a fluke. Over the last year I have consistently scored better with my Topaz than with my Open class plane, primarily because of the ability to just drop it on the spot and have it stick. They are so light they don't carry too much momentum. They thermal easier, the handling is excellent, they just don't like as much wind, but then again, they can successfully be ballasted. In the big monthly contests SWSA holds, the number of Open class planes is probably around 30, RES is about 20 and 2M is about 10. It seems completely upside down to me that 2M at the NATS gets 2 days while RES gets 1/2 a day. Additionally, the awards banquet is held before RES and NOS are even flown, pushing it down further from a competitive event to more of a fun fly afterthought. I -- Erickson Architects John R. Erickson, AIA From: Jim McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:34:52 -0500 To: soaring@airage.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [RCSE] One full day of RES What's amazing is that the United States is the only country the flies 2M. I think if you took a poll at the Nats those entered in the event only fly it to occupy time until Unlimited starts. The latest phrase coined at this years event was Do you know what flies worse than a 2M? Answer: Nothing. In general most prefer the bigger models and very few clubs fly 2M on a regular basis. Let the flaming begin. Jim McCarthy RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that
Re: [RCSE] National Fun Fly...Fall Fest too.
I know I won't drive 2000 miles for a funfly at the National Flying Site. A week long set of real soaring contests, you bet! The Fall Fest...Hmm what can I say about the task for this year without getting flamed??? Likely nothing, so I'll get dressed in several layers of asbestos undies reinforced with multi-layered Kevlar and prepare. Currently open to one class...Ok, not much new here (fingers and toes crossed for a second class option later this month, must fly 2M too)...Only 37 minutes of task time over 2 days (7 rounds)...Bummer! Oh well. Entries been sent anyway. Justin Justin Ammon CEO EdgeRC Inc Pres. CASL 480-593-2458 www.edgerc.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.casl.net - Original Message - From: TJB [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: John Derstine [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Soaring List' soaring@airage.com Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 3:23 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] National Fun Fly In the majority of flying clubs in our area, only a very few are seriously interested in competition. Out of 20 club members, last year, I was the only one who showed up for our ESL contest on the second day. Lancaster has the same problem. I would venture to say, if there was a National Fun Fly for a week, there might be a good turn out. It doesn't even have to be on the same schedule as the NATS. T TG 32 Mount View Dr Afton, VA 22920 540 943-3356 fax 943-4178 - Original Message - From: John Derstine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'TJB' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Soaring List' soaring@airage.com Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 6:06 PM Subject: RE: [RCSE] One full day of RES -- XC/Scale every year Now there is an idea, basically what I was getting at, contests and fun every year. De-emphasize the contest aspect as the die hards know who they are, and will always show up, we need to attract the rest, the guys who don't always come, who care less about rigorous competition, who will support the National Flying site with their presence if it is relevant to their interests, not the minority of top level competition pilots. JD Endless Mountain Models http://www.scalesoaring.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: TJB [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 5:54 PM To: Soaring List Subject: Re: [RCSE] One full day of RES -- XC/Scale every year would have Monday for 2M, Tues and Wed for Open, Thurs would be RES, Fri morning hand launch and Friday afternoon NOS. Events like F3B, F3J, X-Country and Scale would be on the weekend before or after. JE Would probably be the end of NOS. Just not that many flying it. It won't be long and NOS will be 30 year old planes. It is so limited. If they set the category for 20 year old planes (more like it was when it started), it would open up the field for more fliers. I would come an extra couple days early if they had XC and Scale every year. It doesn't even have to be a contest, just two days set aside at the beginning of the schedule. T With the introduction of production planes like the Ava and the Topaz, RES is now the fastest growing segment of plane in this neck of the woods. Where it used to be just a few people it is now nearly even with the amount of Open class entries. There are several fliers that have won Open contests with these planes and it isn't a fluke. Over the last year I have consistently scored better with my Topaz than with my Open class plane, primarily because of the ability to just drop it on the spot and have it stick. They are so light they don't carry too much momentum. They thermal easier, the handling is excellent, they just don't like as much wind, but then again, they can successfully be ballasted. In the big monthly contests SWSA holds, the number of Open class planes is probably around 30, RES is about 20 and 2M is about 10. It seems completely upside down to me that 2M at the NATS gets 2 days while RES gets 1/2 a day. Additionally, the awards banquet is held before RES and NOS are even flown, pushing it down further from a competitive event to more of a fun fly afterthought. I -- Erickson Architects John R. Erickson, AIA From: Jim McCarthy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:34:52 -0500 To: soaring@airage.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [RCSE] One full day of RES What's amazing is that the United States is the only country the flies 2M. I think if you took a poll at the Nats those entered in the event only fly it to occupy time until Unlimited starts. The latest phrase coined at this years event was Do you know what flies worse than a 2M? Answer: Nothing. In general most prefer the bigger models and very few clubs fly 2M on a regular basis. Let the flaming begin. Jim McCarthy RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only
Re: [RCSE] National Fun Fly
Isn't Woodcrafters kind of a fun fly? It already exists. TJB wrote: In the majority of flying clubs in our area, only a very few are seriously interested in competition. Out of 20 club members, last year, I was the only one who showed up for our ESL contest on the second day. Lancaster has the same problem. I would venture to say, if there was a National Fun Fly for a week, there might be a good turn out. It doesn't even have to be on the same schedule as the NATS. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
