Re: [FRIDAY] Microsoft
As developers, I think its our job to develop, making the best use of the best tools available. I may be involved with a .NET project this summer. And if I am, you can bet I'm bringing along the C# renditions of my favorite tools. Ant, Hibernate, Lucene, Maverick (similar to Struts), Velocity, all have .NET projects churning away at SourceForge. Some of these still need some work, but its work we know how to do. The nice thing about this article is that it echoes what I have been telling clients. .NET is a nice quick-to-market platform, but its immature and still needs to be augmented by the products real, live enterprise developers have been building in Java over the last few years. Although the skills most of us bring to a project have less to do with the tools themselves, and more to do with how we use the tools. After all, no matter how good you are using product X today, it's liable to be a very different product two years from now. -T. -- Ted Husted, Struts in Action http://husted.com/struts/book.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [FRIDAY] Microsoft
What article? -Original Message- From: Ted Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 21 March 2003 22:32 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [FRIDAY] Microsoft As developers, I think its our job to develop, making the best use of the best tools available. I may be involved with a .NET project this summer. And if I am, you can bet I'm bringing along the C# renditions of my favorite tools. Ant, Hibernate, Lucene, Maverick (similar to Struts), Velocity, all have .NET projects churning away at SourceForge. Some of these still need some work, but its work we know how to do. The nice thing about this article is that it echoes what I have been telling clients. .NET is a nice quick-to-market platform, but its immature and still needs to be augmented by the products real, live enterprise developers have been building in Java over the last few years. Although the skills most of us bring to a project have less to do with the tools themselves, and more to do with how we use the tools. After all, no matter how good you are using product X today, it's liable to be a very different product two years from now. -T. -- Ted Husted, Struts in Action http://husted.com/struts/book.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [FRIDAY] Microsoft
I think however powerful .NET might be, it'll never reach it's full potential, due to the fact that it only really runs on M$ platforms. Yes, there is the Mono project, which is an attempt to port .NET to Linux, but it will never be full fledge as M$ only release 80% of the .NET infrastructure to the public. Here is the issue. The industry is greatly adopting the Linux platform, for servers and currently even workstations. This is a major move, as we have fortune 500 clients who are planning on switching the full infrastructure to Linux. Which means replacing Unix (Solaris, HP-UX, and AIX) as well as NT, to all run Linux. With these advancements, and Microsoft surely loosing the battle on the **server side**, .NET is not really looked at as a serious solution at many enterprises, though they'll have to adapt Windows as their server side platform, which is rare, especially in bigger companies, who currently run on Unix/Linux. Ford Motor Company for example, has adapted J2EE as the global infrastructure, and .NET argument was shut down, the same day it came up. I think .NET is a totally viable and powerfull solution, but being that they are controlled by M$ and will not be portable to multiple platforms, it becomes almost a non-argument in most companies which run heterougenous environments, and I'd argue that that's almost 99.99% of all companies. Ilya -Original Message- From: Ted Husted To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 3/21/03 7:31 AM Subject: Re: [FRIDAY] Microsoft As developers, I think its our job to develop, making the best use of the best tools available. I may be involved with a .NET project this summer. And if I am, you can bet I'm bringing along the C# renditions of my favorite tools. Ant, Hibernate, Lucene, Maverick (similar to Struts), Velocity, all have .NET projects churning away at SourceForge. Some of these still need some work, but its work we know how to do. The nice thing about this article is that it echoes what I have been telling clients. .NET is a nice quick-to-market platform, but its immature and still needs to be augmented by the products real, live enterprise developers have been building in Java over the last few years. Although the skills most of us bring to a project have less to do with the tools themselves, and more to do with how we use the tools. After all, no matter how good you are using product X today, it's liable to be a very different product two years from now. -T. -- Ted Husted, Struts in Action http://husted.com/struts/book.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [FRIDAY] Microsoft
All of your arguments below are true, but the concern over the TMC report is that if .Net runs apps 50% faster than J2EE then why not use W2k for the app servers running .Net and ditch your J2EE app server. That's the scary argument. Since .Net can communicate with any J2EE apps pretty seamlessly using SOAP, you could have j2ee frontends on top of .Net logic etc. Portability is one of j2ee's main benefits, but it can't come at a completely steep performance cost. BAL From: Sterin, Ilya [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Ted Husted ' [EMAIL PROTECTED], '[EMAIL PROTECTED] ' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [FRIDAY] Microsoft Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 09:11:34 -0700 I think however powerful .NET might be, it'll never reach it's full potential, due to the fact that it only really runs on M$ platforms. Yes, there is the Mono project, which is an attempt to port .NET to Linux, but it will never be full fledge as M$ only release 80% of the .NET infrastructure to the public. Here is the issue. The industry is greatly adopting the Linux platform, for servers and currently even workstations. This is a major move, as we have fortune 500 clients who are planning on switching the full infrastructure to Linux. Which means replacing Unix (Solaris, HP-UX, and AIX) as well as NT, to all run Linux. With these advancements, and Microsoft surely loosing the battle on the **server side**, .NET is not really looked at as a serious solution at many enterprises, though they'll have to adapt Windows as their server side platform, which is rare, especially in bigger companies, who currently run on Unix/Linux. Ford Motor Company for example, has adapted J2EE as the global infrastructure, and .NET argument was shut down, the same day it came up. I think .NET is a totally viable and powerfull solution, but being that they are controlled by M$ and will not be portable to multiple platforms, it becomes almost a non-argument in most companies which run heterougenous environments, and I'd argue that that's almost 99.99% of all companies. Ilya -Original Message- From: Ted Husted To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 3/21/03 7:31 AM Subject: Re: [FRIDAY] Microsoft As developers, I think its our job to develop, making the best use of the best tools available. I may be involved with a .NET project this summer. And if I am, you can bet I'm bringing along the C# renditions of my favorite tools. Ant, Hibernate, Lucene, Maverick (similar to Struts), Velocity, all have .NET projects churning away at SourceForge. Some of these still need some work, but its work we know how to do. The nice thing about this article is that it echoes what I have been telling clients. .NET is a nice quick-to-market platform, but its immature and still needs to be augmented by the products real, live enterprise developers have been building in Java over the last few years. Although the skills most of us bring to a project have less to do with the tools themselves, and more to do with how we use the tools. After all, no matter how good you are using product X today, it's liable to be a very different product two years from now. -T. -- Ted Husted, Struts in Action http://husted.com/struts/book.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Microsoft
If, as the article suggests, one camp (Microsoft) got to tune their app, and the other did not, I'd not put too much stock in the performance data... -jeff On Friday, March 21, 2003, at 11:19 AM, Brian Lee wrote: All of your arguments below are true, but the concern over the TMC report is that if .Net runs apps 50% faster than J2EE then why not use W2k for the app servers running .Net and ditch your J2EE app server. That's the scary argument. Since .Net can communicate with any J2EE apps pretty seamlessly using SOAP, you could have j2ee frontends on top of .Net logic etc. Portability is one of j2ee's main benefits, but it can't come at a completely steep performance cost. BAL From: Sterin, Ilya [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Ted Husted ' [EMAIL PROTECTED], '[EMAIL PROTECTED] ' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [FRIDAY] Microsoft Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 09:11:34 -0700 I think however powerful .NET might be, it'll never reach it's full potential, due to the fact that it only really runs on M$ platforms. Yes, there is the Mono project, which is an attempt to port .NET to Linux, but it will never be full fledge as M$ only release 80% of the .NET infrastructure to the public. Here is the issue. The industry is greatly adopting the Linux platform, for servers and currently even workstations. This is a major move, as we have fortune 500 clients who are planning on switching the full infrastructure to Linux. Which means replacing Unix (Solaris, HP-UX, and AIX) as well as NT, to all run Linux. With these advancements, and Microsoft surely loosing the battle on the **server side**, .NET is not really looked at as a serious solution at many enterprises, though they'll have to adapt Windows as their server side platform, which is rare, especially in bigger companies, who currently run on Unix/Linux. Ford Motor Company for example, has adapted J2EE as the global infrastructure, and .NET argument was shut down, the same day it came up. I think .NET is a totally viable and powerfull solution, but being that they are controlled by M$ and will not be portable to multiple platforms, it becomes almost a non-argument in most companies which run heterougenous environments, and I'd argue that that's almost 99.99% of all companies. Ilya -Original Message- From: Ted Husted To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 3/21/03 7:31 AM Subject: Re: [FRIDAY] Microsoft As developers, I think its our job to develop, making the best use of the best tools available. I may be involved with a .NET project this summer. And if I am, you can bet I'm bringing along the C# renditions of my favorite tools. Ant, Hibernate, Lucene, Maverick (similar to Struts), Velocity, all have .NET projects churning away at SourceForge. Some of these still need some work, but its work we know how to do. The nice thing about this article is that it echoes what I have been telling clients. .NET is a nice quick-to-market platform, but its immature and still needs to be augmented by the products real, live enterprise developers have been building in Java over the last few years. Although the skills most of us bring to a project have less to do with the tools themselves, and more to do with how we use the tools. After all, no matter how good you are using product X today, it's liable to be a very different product two years from now. -T. -- Ted Husted, Struts in Action http://husted.com/struts/book.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Microsoft
From a developers viewpoint, I'd say it's all moot. Developers develop. Pascal, SmallTalk, Java, C# -- a language is a language. I've been through half a dozen platforms so far, and, God willing, I'll go through a half dozen more before I'm done. =:0) The trick is to keep bringing your favorite tools along for the ride. They hand you .NET, you come back with maverick.net (or struts.net for that matter). What I see in .NET is the opportunity to make our favorite tools, like Struts and Hibernate and Velocity and Lucene, cross platform. So, no matter what the suits come up with next, for us, it's still business as usual =:-) The Apache Software Foundation is about community-driven open source. Whether it's in Java or C# or PHP or Python or Ruby doesn't matter. Good products transcend languages and platforms. -T. Sterin, Ilya wrote: Here is the issue. The industry is greatly adopting the Linux platform, for servers and currently even workstations. This is a major move, as we have fortune 500 clients who are planning on switching the full infrastructure to Linux. Which means replacing Unix (Solaris, HP-UX, and AIX) as well as NT, to all run Linux. With these advancements, and Microsoft surely loosing the battle on the **server side**, .NET is not really looked at as a serious solution at many enterprises, though they'll have to adapt Windows as their server side platform, which is rare, especially in bigger companies, who currently run on Unix/Linux. --- Ted Husted, Struts in Action http://husted.com/struts/book.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
OT: Re: [FRIDAY] Microsoft
Brian Lee wrote: All of your arguments below are true, but the concern over the TMC report is that if .Net runs apps 50% faster than J2EE then why not use W2k for the app servers running .Net and ditch your J2EE app server. That's the scary argument. Since .Net can communicate with any J2EE apps pretty seamlessly using SOAP, you could have j2ee frontends on top of .Net logic etc. Portability is one of j2ee's main benefits, but it can't come at a completely steep performance cost. +1 BAL. Faster, faster time to market and cheaper to operate is very, very good. (There are some ways in theory one could run .NET on BSD). Organizations that use expensive and complicated comerical software have an issue with above. But I have found that Open Source if faster, faster time to market and cheaper to operate and better support. (Some of my choices are Eclipse IDE w/CVS, pgSQL DB, Resin 3 App server, Struts, iBatis.com DB layer, Red Hat 8 (with a SCSI Cache controller) and BEA J:Rockit 8 VM, iReports). All are free runtime, and very very fast and very simple. .V (I find clients using Oracle, WebSphere, WebLogic, JBuilder consider them to be more complex and expensive than .NET offerings, and have potential to flip) BAL From: Sterin, Ilya [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Ted Husted ' [EMAIL PROTECTED], '[EMAIL PROTECTED] ' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [FRIDAY] Microsoft Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 09:11:34 -0700 I think however powerful .NET might be, it'll never reach it's full potential, due to the fact that it only really runs on M$ platforms. Yes, there is the Mono project, which is an attempt to port .NET to Linux, but it will never be full fledge as M$ only release 80% of the .NET infrastructure to the public. Here is the issue. The industry is greatly adopting the Linux platform, for servers and currently even workstations. This is a major move, as we have fortune 500 clients who are planning on switching the full infrastructure to Linux. Which means replacing Unix (Solaris, HP-UX, and AIX) as well as NT, to all run Linux. With these advancements, and Microsoft surely loosing the battle on the **server side**, .NET is not really looked at as a serious solution at many enterprises, though they'll have to adapt Windows as their server side platform, which is rare, especially in bigger companies, who currently run on Unix/Linux. Ford Motor Company for example, has adapted J2EE as the global infrastructure, and .NET argument was shut down, the same day it came up. I think .NET is a totally viable and powerfull solution, but being that they are controlled by M$ and will not be portable to multiple platforms, it becomes almost a non-argument in most companies which run heterougenous environments, and I'd argue that that's almost 99.99% of all companies. Ilya -Original Message- From: Ted Husted To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 3/21/03 7:31 AM Subject: Re: [FRIDAY] Microsoft As developers, I think its our job to develop, making the best use of the best tools available. I may be involved with a .NET project this summer. And if I am, you can bet I'm bringing along the C# renditions of my favorite tools. Ant, Hibernate, Lucene, Maverick (similar to Struts), Velocity, all have .NET projects churning away at SourceForge. Some of these still need some work, but its work we know how to do. The nice thing about this article is that it echoes what I have been telling clients. .NET is a nice quick-to-market platform, but its immature and still needs to be augmented by the products real, live enterprise developers have been building in Java over the last few years. Although the skills most of us bring to a project have less to do with the tools themselves, and more to do with how we use the tools. After all, no matter how good you are using product X today, it's liable to be a very different product two years from now. -T. -- Ted Husted, Struts in Action http://husted.com/struts/book.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [FRIDAY] Microsoft
http://www.fawcette.com/javapro/2003_03/online/j2ee_bkurniawan_03_11_03/ -Original Message- From: Andrew Hill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 9:41 AM To: 'Struts Users Mailing List' Subject: RE: [FRIDAY] Microsoft What article? -Original Message- From: Ted Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 21 March 2003 22:32 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [FRIDAY] Microsoft As developers, I think its our job to develop, making the best use of the best tools available. I may be involved with a .NET project this summer. And if I am, you can bet I'm bringing along the C# renditions of my favorite tools. Ant, Hibernate, Lucene, Maverick (similar to Struts), Velocity, all have .NET projects churning away at SourceForge. Some of these still need some work, but its work we know how to do. The nice thing about this article is that it echoes what I have been telling clients. .NET is a nice quick-to-market platform, but its immature and still needs to be augmented by the products real, live enterprise developers have been building in Java over the last few years. Although the skills most of us bring to a project have less to do with the tools themselves, and more to do with how we use the tools. After all, no matter how good you are using product X today, it's liable to be a very different product two years from now. -T. -- Ted Husted, Struts in Action http://husted.com/struts/book.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Microsoft
Right! Good products transcend platforms! So, .NET has an intentional problem. No sense denying it. At 12:45 PM 3/21/03 -0500, you wrote: From a developers viewpoint, I'd say it's all moot. Developers develop. Pascal, SmallTalk, Java, C# -- a language is a language. I've been through half a dozen platforms so far, and, God willing, I'll go through a half dozen more before I'm done. =:0) The trick is to keep bringing your favorite tools along for the ride. They hand you .NET, you come back with maverick.net (or struts.net for that matter). What I see in .NET is the opportunity to make our favorite tools, like Struts and Hibernate and Velocity and Lucene, cross platform. So, no matter what the suits come up with next, for us, it's still business as usual =:-) The Apache Software Foundation is about community-driven open source. Whether it's in Java or C# or PHP or Python or Ruby doesn't matter. Good products transcend languages and platforms. -T. Sterin, Ilya wrote: Here is the issue. The industry is greatly adopting the Linux platform, for servers and currently even workstations. This is a major move, as we have fortune 500 clients who are planning on switching the full infrastructure to Linux. Which means replacing Unix (Solaris, HP-UX, and AIX) as well as NT, to all run Linux. With these advancements, and Microsoft surely loosing the battle on the **server side**, .NET is not really looked at as a serious solution at many enterprises, though they'll have to adapt Windows as their server side platform, which is rare, especially in bigger companies, who currently run on Unix/Linux. --- Ted Husted, Struts in Action http://husted.com/struts/book.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] LEGAL NOTICE This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [FRIDAY] Microsoft
Besides the almost a fact that this study was funded by Microsoft, which also claims that Windows is more reliable and cost efficient than Linux, after every independent source claimed that that's false, speed is usually an issue of the developer and the app, not the underlying technology itself, or at least in many cases. Also, with todays cheap hardware, speed is almost a non-issue, as long as it doesn't come with the benefits that Windows brings to the table, like instability, vendor lock-in, security flaws, and 1000 more I won't list. Ilya -Original Message- From: Jeff Kyser To: Struts Users Mailing List Sent: 3/21/03 10:25 AM Subject: Re: [FRIDAY] Microsoft If, as the article suggests, one camp (Microsoft) got to tune their app, and the other did not, I'd not put too much stock in the performance data... -jeff On Friday, March 21, 2003, at 11:19 AM, Brian Lee wrote: All of your arguments below are true, but the concern over the TMC report is that if .Net runs apps 50% faster than J2EE then why not use W2k for the app servers running .Net and ditch your J2EE app server. That's the scary argument. Since .Net can communicate with any J2EE apps pretty seamlessly using SOAP, you could have j2ee frontends on top of .Net logic etc. Portability is one of j2ee's main benefits, but it can't come at a completely steep performance cost. BAL From: Sterin, Ilya [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Ted Husted ' [EMAIL PROTECTED], '[EMAIL PROTECTED] ' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [FRIDAY] Microsoft Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 09:11:34 -0700 I think however powerful .NET might be, it'll never reach it's full potential, due to the fact that it only really runs on M$ platforms. Yes, there is the Mono project, which is an attempt to port .NET to Linux, but it will never be full fledge as M$ only release 80% of the .NET infrastructure to the public. Here is the issue. The industry is greatly adopting the Linux platform, for servers and currently even workstations. This is a major move, as we have fortune 500 clients who are planning on switching the full infrastructure to Linux. Which means replacing Unix (Solaris, HP-UX, and AIX) as well as NT, to all run Linux. With these advancements, and Microsoft surely loosing the battle on the **server side**, .NET is not really looked at as a serious solution at many enterprises, though they'll have to adapt Windows as their server side platform, which is rare, especially in bigger companies, who currently run on Unix/Linux. Ford Motor Company for example, has adapted J2EE as the global infrastructure, and .NET argument was shut down, the same day it came up. I think .NET is a totally viable and powerfull solution, but being that they are controlled by M$ and will not be portable to multiple platforms, it becomes almost a non-argument in most companies which run heterougenous environments, and I'd argue that that's almost 99.99% of all companies. Ilya -Original Message- From: Ted Husted To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 3/21/03 7:31 AM Subject: Re: [FRIDAY] Microsoft As developers, I think its our job to develop, making the best use of the best tools available. I may be involved with a .NET project this summer. And if I am, you can bet I'm bringing along the C# renditions of my favorite tools. Ant, Hibernate, Lucene, Maverick (similar to Struts), Velocity, all have .NET projects churning away at SourceForge. Some of these still need some work, but its work we know how to do. The nice thing about this article is that it echoes what I have been telling clients. .NET is a nice quick-to-market platform, but its immature and still needs to be augmented by the products real, live enterprise developers have been building in Java over the last few years. Although the skills most of us bring to a project have less to do with the tools themselves, and more to do with how we use the tools. After all, no matter how good you are using product X today, it's liable to be a very different product two years from now. -T. -- Ted Husted, Struts in Action http://husted.com/struts/book.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [FRIDAY] Microsoft
Very true, Ted, totally agree with the developers viewpoint. I also don't care if it's Java, C#, Perl, C/C++, or some new language, as long as you can get the job done. The problem arises though with the fact that, what's more benefitial in the enterprises infrastructure. Cross-platform (which Java provides) or cross-language (which .NET provides). With my experience, most corporations have a highly heterogeneous environment, with it being almost impossible to deploy a 100% .NET infrastructure. And being that most corps don't necessarily want to support multiple global infrastructures, they tend to lean towards J2EE. Though I must admit that most, are implementing .NET somewhere in the enterprise, it's just not a corporate wide supported environment. Look at it from the perspective of writting cross platform apps. Most app companies, be it ERP applications, RDBMS, etc... are always looking to broader platform environments. SAP, Peoplesoft, etc... have all ported software to Linux, Unix, etc... Relying 100% on .NET, that becomes impossible. Though is the reason Oracle is highly dependent on Java, as it allows them to explore multiple platform environments, without the $$$ and time involved in porting to a different language. Ilya -Original Message- From: Ted Husted To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED] ' Cc: Sterin, Ilya Sent: 3/21/03 10:45 AM Subject: Re: [FRIDAY] Microsoft From a developers viewpoint, I'd say it's all moot. Developers develop. Pascal, SmallTalk, Java, C# -- a language is a language. I've been through half a dozen platforms so far, and, God willing, I'll go through a half dozen more before I'm done. =:0) The trick is to keep bringing your favorite tools along for the ride. They hand you .NET, you come back with maverick.net (or struts.net for that matter). What I see in .NET is the opportunity to make our favorite tools, like Struts and Hibernate and Velocity and Lucene, cross platform. So, no matter what the suits come up with next, for us, it's still business as usual =:-) The Apache Software Foundation is about community-driven open source. Whether it's in Java or C# or PHP or Python or Ruby doesn't matter. Good products transcend languages and platforms. -T. Sterin, Ilya wrote: Here is the issue. The industry is greatly adopting the Linux platform, for servers and currently even workstations. This is a major move, as we have fortune 500 clients who are planning on switching the full infrastructure to Linux. Which means replacing Unix (Solaris, HP-UX, and AIX) as well as NT, to all run Linux. With these advancements, and Microsoft surely loosing the battle on the **server side**, .NET is not really looked at as a serious solution at many enterprises, though they'll have to adapt Windows as their server side platform, which is rare, especially in bigger companies, who currently run on Unix/Linux. --- Ted Husted, Struts in Action http://husted.com/struts/book.html
Re: [FRIDAY] Microsoft
I think you're missing my point that the open source Java developer's response to .NET is to port our favorite tools from Java to C#. If we can make .NET look more like Java, then we all win. Heck, by making C# look so much like Java, Redmond has already done most of the work for us =:0) If I can use my favorite tools on whichever platform, what do I care what the suits decide? Sure, Microsoft is the evil empire, but Sun has its dark moments too. AFAIC, the only white knight around here is the Apache Software Foundation. Meanwhile, you can't rely 100% on Java either. There still are platforms, like FreeBSD, where there is not a good Java solution. One reason Yahoo went with PHP instead of JSP/Java is because Yahoo is standardized on FreeBSD. http://public.yahoo.com/~radwin/talks/yahoo-phpcon2002.htm If this had happened in 1999 instead of 2002, I'd be using PHP and FuseBox right now (and perhaps hanging with McClanahan the younger) =:) http://jakarta.apache.org/site/contributing.html And, yet I may ... -T. Sterin, Ilya wrote: Very true, Ted, totally agree with the developers viewpoint. I also don't care if it's Java, C#, Perl, C/C++, or some new language, as long as you can get the job done. The problem arises though with the fact that, what's more benefitial in the enterprises infrastructure. Cross-platform (which Java provides) or cross-language (which .NET provides). With my experience, most corporations have a highly heterogeneous environment, with it being almost impossible to deploy a 100% .NET infrastructure. And being that most corps don't necessarily want to support multiple global infrastructures, they tend to lean towards J2EE. Though I must admit that most, are implementing .NET somewhere in the enterprise, it's just not a corporate wide supported environment. Look at it from the perspective of writting cross platform apps. Most app companies, be it ERP applications, RDBMS, etc... are always looking to broader platform environments. SAP, Peoplesoft, etc... have all ported software to Linux, Unix, etc... Relying 100% on .NET, that becomes impossible. Though is the reason Oracle is highly dependent on Java, as it allows them to explore multiple platform environments, without the $$$ and time involved in porting to a different language. Ilya -Original Message- From: Ted Husted To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED] ' Cc: Sterin, Ilya Sent: 3/21/03 10:45 AM Subject: Re: [FRIDAY] Microsoft From a developers viewpoint, I'd say it's all moot. Developers develop. Pascal, SmallTalk, Java, C# -- a language is a language. I've been through half a dozen platforms so far, and, God willing, I'll go through a half dozen more before I'm done. =:0) The trick is to keep bringing your favorite tools along for the ride. They hand you .NET, you come back with maverick.net (or struts.net for that matter). What I see in .NET is the opportunity to make our favorite tools, like Struts and Hibernate and Velocity and Lucene, cross platform. So, no matter what the suits come up with next, for us, it's still business as usual =:-) The Apache Software Foundation is about community-driven open source. Whether it's in Java or C# or PHP or Python or Ruby doesn't matter. Good products transcend languages and platforms. -T. Sterin, Ilya wrote: Here is the issue. The industry is greatly adopting the Linux platform, for servers and currently even workstations. This is a major move, as we have fortune 500 clients who are planning on switching the full infrastructure to Linux. Which means replacing Unix (Solaris, HP-UX, and AIX) as well as NT, to all run Linux. With these advancements, and Microsoft surely loosing the battle on the **server side**, .NET is not really looked at as a serious solution at many enterprises, though they'll have to adapt Windows as their server side platform, which is rare, especially in bigger companies, who currently run on Unix/Linux. --- Ted Husted, Struts in Action http://husted.com/struts/book.html -- Ted Husted, Struts in Action http://husted.com/struts/book.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Microsoft
On Fri, Mar 21, 2003 at 04:35:11PM -0500, Ted Husted wrote: I think you're missing my point that the open source Java developer's response to .NET is to port our favorite tools from Java to C#. There is one slight problem with the attempt to Open Source .NET: Microsoft recently patented all of the .NET code: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/29283.html This could potentially put a huge monkey wrench in any plans to Open Source .NET J. -- Justin F. Knotzke [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.shampoo.ca - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Microsoft
Borland as the first compagny who buy an .NET licence. They will release Sidewinder for Windows and Linux. .. Alexandre Jaquet - Original Message - From: Justin F. Knotzke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 10:38 PM Subject: Re: [FRIDAY] Microsoft On Fri, Mar 21, 2003 at 04:35:11PM -0500, Ted Husted wrote: I think you're missing my point that the open source Java developer's response to .NET is to port our favorite tools from Java to C#. There is one slight problem with the attempt to Open Source .NET: Microsoft recently patented all of the .NET code: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/29283.html This could potentially put a huge monkey wrench in any plans to Open Source .NET J. -- Justin F. Knotzke [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.shampoo.ca - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Microsoft
I've some try with Open Source implementation like Mono and Rotor but what's the only gift is the C# implementation. Mono miss so much for a reall cross plateform, ado.net, asp.net. They try to release a GTK# but it's sucks so much in comparaison with WinForm... -- Alexandre Jaquet - Original Message - From: Justin F. Knotzke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 10:38 PM Subject: Re: [FRIDAY] Microsoft On Fri, Mar 21, 2003 at 04:35:11PM -0500, Ted Husted wrote: I think you're missing my point that the open source Java developer's response to .NET is to port our favorite tools from Java to C#. There is one slight problem with the attempt to Open Source .NET: Microsoft recently patented all of the .NET code: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/29283.html This could potentially put a huge monkey wrench in any plans to Open Source .NET J. -- Justin F. Knotzke [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.shampoo.ca - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Microsoft
On Fri, 2003-03-21 at 19:21, Alexandre Jaquet wrote: I've some try with Open Source implementation like Mono and Rotor but what's the only gift is the C# implementation. Mono miss so much for a reall cross plateform, ado.net, asp.net. They try to release a GTK# but it's sucks so much in comparaison with WinForm... Have you seen what Servlet 2.4/JSP 2.0 is bringing? Have you downloaded Tomcat 5.0-dev and checked out the newest features? I have over 7 years experience in VBA, VB3-6, and ASP and all I can say is OH MY GOD!!!, this is going to blow away ASP.NET. If you think JSTL is cool, you haven't seen anything You really should take a look if you haven't yet. -- Alexandre Jaquet - Original Message - From: Justin F. Knotzke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 10:38 PM Subject: Re: [FRIDAY] Microsoft On Fri, Mar 21, 2003 at 04:35:11PM -0500, Ted Husted wrote: I think you're missing my point that the open source Java developer's response to .NET is to port our favorite tools from Java to C#. There is one slight problem with the attempt to Open Source .NET: Microsoft recently patented all of the .NET code: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/29283.html This could potentially put a huge monkey wrench in any plans to Open Source .NET J. -- Justin F. Knotzke [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.shampoo.ca - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- James Mitchell Software Developer/Struts Evangelist http://www.open-tools.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [FRIDAY] Microsoft
Ok, I agree:-) True, the tools are just there to accomplish the job, and as long as you get to the goal, it doesn't matter what tools someone tells you to use. I get the point now:-) Ilya -Original Message- From: Ted Husted To: ''[EMAIL PROTECTED] ' ' Cc: Sterin, Ilya Sent: 3/21/03 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [FRIDAY] Microsoft I think you're missing my point that the open source Java developer's response to .NET is to port our favorite tools from Java to C#. If we can make .NET look more like Java, then we all win. Heck, by making C# look so much like Java, Redmond has already done most of the work for us =:0) If I can use my favorite tools on whichever platform, what do I care what the suits decide? Sure, Microsoft is the evil empire, but Sun has its dark moments too. AFAIC, the only white knight around here is the Apache Software Foundation. Meanwhile, you can't rely 100% on Java either. There still are platforms, like FreeBSD, where there is not a good Java solution. One reason Yahoo went with PHP instead of JSP/Java is because Yahoo is standardized on FreeBSD. http://public.yahoo.com/~radwin/talks/yahoo-phpcon2002.htm If this had happened in 1999 instead of 2002, I'd be using PHP and FuseBox right now (and perhaps hanging with McClanahan the younger) =:) http://jakarta.apache.org/site/contributing.html And, yet I may ... -T. Sterin, Ilya wrote: Very true, Ted, totally agree with the developers viewpoint. I also don't care if it's Java, C#, Perl, C/C++, or some new language, as long as you can get the job done. The problem arises though with the fact that, what's more benefitial in the enterprises infrastructure. Cross-platform (which Java provides) or cross-language (which .NET provides). With my experience, most corporations have a highly heterogeneous environment, with it being almost impossible to deploy a 100% .NET infrastructure. And being that most corps don't necessarily want to support multiple global infrastructures, they tend to lean towards J2EE. Though I must admit that most, are implementing .NET somewhere in the enterprise, it's just not a corporate wide supported environment. Look at it from the perspective of writting cross platform apps. Most app companies, be it ERP applications, RDBMS, etc... are always looking to broader platform environments. SAP, Peoplesoft, etc... have all ported software to Linux, Unix, etc... Relying 100% on .NET, that becomes impossible. Though is the reason Oracle is highly dependent on Java, as it allows them to explore multiple platform environments, without the $$$ and time involved in porting to a different language. Ilya -Original Message- From: Ted Husted To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED] ' Cc: Sterin, Ilya Sent: 3/21/03 10:45 AM Subject: Re: [FRIDAY] Microsoft From a developers viewpoint, I'd say it's all moot. Developers develop. Pascal, SmallTalk, Java, C# -- a language is a language. I've been through half a dozen platforms so far, and, God willing, I'll go through a half dozen more before I'm done. =:0) The trick is to keep bringing your favorite tools along for the ride. They hand you .NET, you come back with maverick.net (or struts.net for that matter). What I see in .NET is the opportunity to make our favorite tools, like Struts and Hibernate and Velocity and Lucene, cross platform. So, no matter what the suits come up with next, for us, it's still business as usual =:-) The Apache Software Foundation is about community-driven open source. Whether it's in Java or C# or PHP or Python or Ruby doesn't matter. Good products transcend languages and platforms. -T. Sterin, Ilya wrote: Here is the issue. The industry is greatly adopting the Linux platform, for servers and currently even workstations. This is a major move, as we have fortune 500 clients who are planning on switching the full infrastructure to Linux. Which means replacing Unix (Solaris, HP-UX, and AIX) as well as NT, to all run Linux. With these advancements, and Microsoft surely loosing the battle on the **server side**, .NET is not really looked at as a serious solution at many enterprises, though they'll have to adapt Windows as their server side platform, which is rare, especially in bigger companies, who currently run on Unix/Linux. --- Ted Husted, Struts in Action http://husted.com/struts/book.html -- Ted Husted, Struts in Action http://husted.com/struts/book.html
