Re: Sniffing and Spoofing
On or about 12/2/2009 11:07 PM, David E. Ross typed the following: On 12/2/2009 7:53 PM, Paul wrote: David E. Ross wrote: (snip) A great idea but getting millions of webmasters to change billions of web sites could be a problem. S N I P There might be some upfront cost for creating a single set of Web pages (both HTML/XHTML and CSS) that have acceptable appearance for all modern browsers in place of multiple sets, one for each browser. In the long run, the cost of maintenance will drop significantly. If the pages are W3C-compliant, no new cost would be required when a new browser enters the market. Web site maintenance costs driven by outside circumstances -- by browser developers -- would be eliminated. True, but how do you convince the egotistic web-masters that try to outdo each other? As long as there's a way to display a picture, animated cartoon, pop-up, rolling screen, scrolling text, music, etc., even though non-W3C compliant you will have sites that do not display/work propely with one engine or another. -- Ed Baseball is 90% mental -- the other half is physical.-Yogi Berra (1925-) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Sniffing and Spoofing
On or about 12/2/2009 10:57 PM, question typed the following: I think the Sniffing is a leftover from the Netscape /IE War . Thats about the only way they could come up with Accurate Numbers ... Counting the downloads of either Netscape or IE would not be that accurates as to USER who actually use what they Download. The Good old days was when we Used Winsocks and Trumpet . Yeh, the good old days. When my PC running DOS 2.x connected to a SUN server (Unix). Had to use unix commands. And after a while upgraded to DOS 6.2 and ran ProComm/ProComm Plus. What a world of difference. Viruses ran rapidly from PC to PC after one floppy after another got contaminated. Yep - the good old days. (: -- Ed Always drink upstream from the herd. -Will Rogers (1879-1935) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Sniffing and Spoofing
Interviewed by CNN on 3/12/2009 09:17, BeeNeR told the world: On or about 12/2/2009 10:57 PM, question typed the following: I think the Sniffing is a leftover from the Netscape /IE War . Thats about the only way they could come up with Accurate Numbers ... Counting the downloads of either Netscape or IE would not be that accurates as to USER who actually use what they Download. The Good old days was when we Used Winsocks and Trumpet . Yeh, the good old days. When my PC running DOS 2.x connected to a SUN server (Unix). Had to use unix commands. And after a while upgraded to DOS 6.2 and ran ProComm/ProComm Plus. What a world of difference. Viruses ran rapidly from PC to PC after one floppy after another got contaminated. Yep - the good old days. (: I was a Telemate user myself, in the old DOS days. Tried a bunch of stuff for Windows, including Procomm Plus... none was as good. Oh, and I don't think IE ever used Trumpet. The Win9x versions didn't need it, of course, since Win95 came with its own TCP/IP stack. But the Win 3.x version came with its own Winsock stack. I have a VirtualPC image somewhere with a fully Internet-functional Windows 3.11, including IE 5... every couple of years I fire it up for laughs. Some day, I have to find an old 16-bit Netscape to include in it too. And... wasn't there some sort of DOS-based web browser, in the really old days? Maybe a version of Lynx? I seem to remember a fully self-contained Internet suite that ran from a single bootable floppy... -- MCBastos This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized use will be prosecuted under the DMCA. -=-=- ... Klingons DO NOT surrender their weapons! * TagZilla 0.0661 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org on Seamonkey 2.0 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Sniffing and Spoofing
David E. Ross wrote: On 12/2/2009 5:09 PM, Phillip Jones wrote: I previously wrote [in part]: Two recent threads in mozilla.support.seamonkey on this issue resulted in very lengthy discussions. See SeaMonkey and U.S. Government site does not work at news://news.mozilla.org:119/so-dntlowokak43wnz2dnuvz_r6dn...@mozilla.org and Web site work in IE but not in SeaMonkey 2.0 at news://news.mozilla.org:119/xfadnab_io4m4inwnz2dnuvz_oodn...@mozilla.org. I can view the the TVGuide site with no problem and I do not have any spoofing set up. I can not view the Government site in SM 2 as I do not have any spoofing set. as shown here: Build identifier: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.4; en-US; rv:1.9.1.4) Gecko/20091017 SeaMonkey/2.0 The issue was not about viewing the TV Guide home page. It was about viewing individual scheduled programs. I haven't tried the TV Guide site myself. I merely followed the discussion. Doesn't function correctly on: SM2 FF3.5 Camino Opera, iCab OmniWeb Safari 4.0.4 other than the the log in page and the items below the listings Its bad coding all the way around. on all it looks and operates identically. So whether Webkit or Gecko makes no difference. I don't have access to chrome for Mac won't be out for another 3-4 months in an alpha version and and there hasn't been a version of IE since 5.2.3 for the mac. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Sniffing and Spoofing
Leonidas Jones wrote: Phillip Jones wrote: David E. Ross wrote: Two recent threads in mozilla.support.seamonkey on this issue resulted in very lengthy discussions. See SeaMonkey and U.S. Government site does not work at news://news.mozilla.org:119/so-dntlowokak43wnz2dnuvz_r6dn...@mozilla.org and Web site work in IE but not in SeaMonkey 2.0 at news://news.mozilla.org:119/xfadnab_io4m4inwnz2dnuvz_oodn...@mozilla.org. I can view the the TVGuide site with no problem and I do not have any spoofing set up. I can not view the Government site in SM 2 as I do not have any spoofing set. as shown here: Build identifier: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.4; en-US; rv:1.9.1.4) Gecko/20091017 SeaMonkey/2.0 These are just more examples of errors being asserted in a Gecko browser when the real problem are invalid sniffing for UA strings by Web servers. These problems are not new. Tracking bug #334967 for these problems was written on 21 Apr 2006. The earliest bug tracked by #334967 was bug #166261, written on 2 September 2002 and now closed. Novice users of SeaMonkey and other non-Firefox browsers that use Gecko are often confused about what sniffing and spoofing are. This was readily noticed in the two threads cited above, where one user repeatedly claimed that he could not be spoofing because he didn't even know what that meant. He very strongly stated that SeaMonkey 2.0 was broken but SeaMonkey 1.1.18 was not because he could view two web sites with the latter but not with the former. When instructed how to report his UA strings for both versions of SeaMonkey in mozilla.support.seamonkey, it was seen that his SeaMonkey 1.1.18 was spoofing Firefox 2.0.0.7. When he migrated to SeaMonkey 2.0, the user-set preference variable to continue such spoofing was not included. The problem is usually attributed to invalid sniffing for Firefox when Web servers should sniff for Gecko. The real problem is that servers should not sniff at all. Interesting, informative, entertaining, aesthetically pleasing Web sites can be created that can be appropriately viewed by any modern browser without sniffing, providing those sites fully comply with the W3C specifications. To deal with this issue, I suggest the following: 1. Every detected instance of invalid sniffing must result in a bug report blocking bug #334967. Documenting the problem via Bugzilla makes it easier to communicate the problem to the Web site owner. 2. Today, much sniffing still excludes Opera, Safari, Konqueror, and Chrome let alone non-Firefox Gecko browsers. When dealing with a bug report tracked by bug #334967, Web site owners should be strongly urged not to sniff at all because sniffing is excluding potential audiences for their sites. 3. When helping users to defeat invalid sniffing, they should be advised to treat spoofing as a temporary measure. Permanent sniffing lends credence to assertions by Web developers that Firefox is the only Gecko browser visiting their sites and that no one uses SeaMonkey. Extensions such as PrefBar or User Agent Switcher should be recommended because they revert the UA string back to the browser's true UA when terminating or starting. Further, any spoofing must include the actual SeaMonkey UA string with Firefox mere added; this is required so that humans reviewing raw server logs will see that SeaMonkey is an actual browser visiting their Web sites. 4. Users must be urged to contact the site owner with a complaint about invalid sniffing, referring both to the bug report and to Gecko is Gecko athttp://wiki.mozilla.org/User:Sardisson/Gecko_is_Gecko. 5. Management at both the Mozilla Foundation and the Mozilla Corporation should make similar contacts via postal mail with executives of the companies and agencies whose Web sites are causing problems. (Many executives are still more responsive to postal mail than to E-mail.) Such contacts to U.S. companies should mention that sniffing might yield Web sites that violate the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA); contacts with U.S. federal agencies should mention that sniffing might yield Web sites that violate Section 508 of the U.S. Rehabilitation Act of 1986 (as amended in 1998). 6. If any complaint (#4 or #5 above) results in a response that no one uses SeaMonkey, the responder should be asked to review the raw server logs to see if SeaMonkey appears among the UA strings (see #3 above). Phillip, the TV Guide site *looks* like it displays fine in SM 2.0 or 1.1.18, but not all of the functions work. Specifically, if you go to the program listing and click onone of the shows, you are supposed to get a box with information on that show. If your UA is not spoofed, you get a blank box. If you spoof the UA as Firefox, you get the information. Please test this and report back. Lee Just saw this: Not SM 2 specific Tried in SeaMonkey 2, FireFox 3.5, Camino, Opera, iCab,OmniWeb, and Safari. They all look the same then act the same. Don't have access
Re: Sniffing and Spoofing
Leonidas Jones wrote: Rufus wrote: David E. Ross wrote: On 12/2/2009 5:09 PM, Phillip Jones wrote: I previously wrote [in part]: /snip/ I can't see the individual listing's either using a Mac and SM 1.1.18...but I have a question - do you have to log into the TV Guide site in order to see the individual listings?..i.e.; have a subscription? No, you just need to spoof as FF. Lee I couldn't get it to even function correctly on FF 3.5.5 now the links bellow the listings work fine. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Sniffing and Spoofing
Arnie Goetchius wrote: David E. Ross wrote: 5. Management at both the Mozilla Foundation and the Mozilla Corporation should make similar contacts via postal mail with executives of the companies and agencies whose Web sites are causing problems. (Many executives are still more responsive to postal mail than to E-mail.) Excellent point. Some of today's top executives are not comfortable having anyone see them typing at a keyboard. For them typing is for administrative assistants, not for top management. Harumph!! That hearkens back to the Fifties when when if a Male took Typing classes, his manhood was question. I considered taking Typing, but didn't want to be labeled a Q. Home Ec, an Typing was the domain of girls and Day Trades such as wood working,Auto Mechanics Sheet Metal Works/welding, Electronics were the domain of Males. Pottery/and leather working was the one trade in which both were okay to go to. If ether crossed the line people question whether you were Q or not. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Sniffing and Spoofing
MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 3/12/2009 09:17, BeeNeR told the world: On or about 12/2/2009 10:57 PM, question typed the following: I think the Sniffing is a leftover from the Netscape /IE War . Thats about the only way they could come up with Accurate Numbers ... Counting the downloads of either Netscape or IE would not be that accurates as to USER who actually use what they Download. The Good old days was when we Used Winsocks and Trumpet . Yeh, the good old days. When my PC running DOS 2.x connected to a SUN server (Unix). Had to use unix commands. And after a while upgraded to DOS 6.2 and ran ProComm/ProComm Plus. What a world of difference. Viruses ran rapidly from PC to PC after one floppy after another got contaminated. Yep - the good old days. (: I was a Telemate user myself, in the old DOS days. Tried a bunch of stuff for Windows, including Procomm Plus... none was as good. Oh, and I don't think IE ever used Trumpet. The Win9x versions didn't need it, of course, since Win95 came with its own TCP/IP stack. But the Win 3.x version came with its own Winsock stack. I have a VirtualPC image somewhere with a fully Internet-functional Windows 3.11, including IE 5... every couple of years I fire it up for laughs. Some day, I have to find an old 16-bit Netscape to include in it too. And... wasn't there some sort of DOS-based web browser, in the really old days? Maybe a version of Lynx? I seem to remember a fully self-contained Internet suite that ran from a single bootable floppy... I remember TELIX ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Sniffing and Spoofing
BeeNeR wrote: On or about 12/2/2009 10:57 PM, question typed the following: I think the Sniffing is a leftover from the Netscape /IE War . Thats about the only way they could come up with Accurate Numbers ... Counting the downloads of either Netscape or IE would not be that accurates as to USER who actually use what they Download. The Good old days was when we Used Winsocks and Trumpet . Yeh, the good old days. When my PC running DOS 2.x connected to a SUN server (Unix). Had to use unix commands. And after a while upgraded to DOS 6.2 and ran ProComm/ProComm Plus. I still have the 720k disk that procomm Came on. Also have the 360k disk that Dos 6.2 is on. And the Floppy 1.44 with Netscape 1.1 What a world of difference. Viruses ran rapidly from PC to PC after one floppy after another got contaminated. Yep - the good old days. (: ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Sniffing and Spoofing
Phillip Jones wrote: Leonidas Jones wrote: Phillip Jones wrote: David E. Ross wrote: /snip/ Lee Just saw this: Not SM 2 specific Tried in SeaMonkey 2, FireFox 3.5, Camino, Opera, iCab,OmniWeb, and Safari. They all look the same then act the same. Don't have access to Chrome Mac (won't be a version for Mac until about spring or summer '10. And Hasn't been a Version for Mac of IE since 5.2.3 and I don't have that loaded. about half of these browsers are Webkit and about half are gecko. So either there are errors on the page coded badly or they have set to only work with Internet Exploder. Well, I don't have time right now for extensive testing, but I did try it on 3.5.5, and it was working fine. Unless they have changed something, there is something afoot. Lee ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Sniffing and Spoofing
Leonidas Jones wrote: Phillip Jones wrote: Leonidas Jones wrote: Phillip Jones wrote: David E. Ross wrote: /snip/ Lee Just saw this: Not SM 2 specific Tried in SeaMonkey 2, FireFox 3.5, Camino, Opera, iCab,OmniWeb, and Safari. They all look the same then act the same. Don't have access to Chrome Mac (won't be a version for Mac until about spring or summer '10. And Hasn't been a Version for Mac of IE since 5.2.3 and I don't have that loaded. about half of these browsers are Webkit and about half are gecko. So either there are errors on the page coded badly or they have set to only work with Internet Exploder. Well, I don't have time right now for extensive testing, but I did try it on 3.5.5, and it was working fine. Unless they have changed something, there is something afoot. Lee From tvguide site For inquires regarding TVGuide.com syndicated listings, news, video and other products for your website, contact Brandon DiMassa ( brandon.dima...@tvguide.com ) Vice President, Digital Media Syndication Network PR requests Online Executive Team Paul Greenberg Executive Vice President and General Manager, TV Guide Online Josh Axelrod Director, Program Management Sasha Eysymontt Vice President, Engineering Kirsten Rasanen Vice President, Online Product Development Christy Tanner Editor In Chief and Vice President, Marketing Online Ad Sales For all Sales Advertising inquiries, please contact Ian Wallin Vice President, Online Advertising Sales Keith Bockus Vice President, East Coast Sales Aaron Lug Manager, West Coast Sales Elaine Arber Manager, Midwest Sales Online Syndication ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Sniffing and Spoofing
On 12/02/2009 05:49 PM, Leonidas Jones wrote: Rufus wrote: David E. Ross wrote: On 12/2/2009 5:09 PM, Phillip Jones wrote: I previously wrote [in part]: /snip/ I can't see the individual listing's either using a Mac and SM 1.1.18...but I have a question - do you have to log into the TV Guide site in order to see the individual listings?..i.e.; have a subscription? No, you just need to spoof as FF. Lee Correct. This was discussed at length over on mozilla.dev.apps.seamonkey (see TVguide - third time thread Oct 26). From my testing then: It's a browser sniffer issue. I tried 1.1.18 (windows and linux) and 2.0pre and 2.0 final (rc2) and got the white blank that you are referring to. In Firefox 3.5.3 (windows and linux) I had no issues. So, using prefbar I added a Firefox (linux) UA: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.3) Gecko/20090824 Firefox/3.5.3 and checked again in 1.1.18 and 2.0(pre and final) and the site displayed listings just fine. In 2.0 (linux) I even have it showing the listings in one tab w/the Fx UA, and then switched to a different window tab, turned off the Fx UA and that one is showing the blanks. Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.4) Gecko/20091017 Lightning/1.0pre SeaMonkey/2.0 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Sniffing and Spoofing
Two recent threads in mozilla.support.seamonkey on this issue resulted in very lengthy discussions. See Seamonkey and U.S. Government site does not work at news://news.mozilla.org:119/so-dntlowokak43wnz2dnuvz_r6dn...@mozilla.org and Web site work in IE but not in Seamonkey 2.0 at news://news.mozilla.org:119/xfadnab_io4m4inwnz2dnuvz_oodn...@mozilla.org. These are just more examples of errors being asserted in a Gecko browser when the real problem are invalid sniffing for UA strings by Web servers. These problems are not new. Tracking bug #334967 for these problems was written on 21 Apr 2006. The earliest bug tracked by #334967 was bug #166261, written on 2 September 2002 and now closed. Novice users of SeaMonkey and other non-Firefox browsers that use Gecko are often confused about what sniffing and spoofing are. This was readily noticed in the two threads cited above, where one user repeatedly claimed that he could not be spoofing because he didn't even know what that meant. He very strongly stated that SeaMonkey 2.0 was broken but SeaMonkey 1.1.18 was not because he could view two web sites with the latter but not with the former. When instructed how to report his UA strings for both versions of SeaMonkey in mozilla.support.seamonkey, it was seen that his SeaMonkey 1.1.18 was spoofing Firefox 2.0.0.7. When he migrated to SeaMonkey 2.0, the user-set preference variable to continue such spoofing was not included. The problem is usually attributed to invalid sniffing for Firefox when Web servers should sniff for Gecko. The real problem is that servers should not sniff at all. Interesting, informative, entertaining, aesthetically pleasing Web sites can be created that can be appropriately viewed by any modern browser without sniffing, providing those sites fully comply with the W3C specifications. To deal with this issue, I suggest the following: 1. Every detected instance of invalid sniffing must result in a bug report blocking bug #334967. Documenting the problem via Bugzilla makes it easier to communicate the problem to the Web site owner. 2. Today, much sniffing still excludes Opera, Safari, Konqueror, and Chrome let alone non-Firefox Gecko browsers. When dealing with a bug report tracked by bug #334967, Web site owners should be strongly urged not to sniff at all because sniffing is excluding potential audiences for their sites. 3. When helping users to defeat invalid sniffing, they should be advised to treat spoofing as a temporary measure. Permanent sniffing lends credence to assertions by Web developers that Firefox is the only Gecko browser visiting their sites and that no one uses SeaMonkey. Extensions such as PrefBar or User Agent Switcher should be recommended because they revert the UA string back to the browser's true UA when terminating or starting. Further, any spoofing must include the actual SeaMonkey UA string with Firefox mere added; this is required so that humans reviewing raw server logs will see that SeaMonkey is an actual browser visiting their Web sites. 4. Users must be urged to contact the site owner with a complaint about invalid sniffing, referring both to the bug report and to Gecko is Gecko at http://wiki.mozilla.org/User:Sardisson/Gecko_is_Gecko. 5. Management at both the Mozilla Foundation and the Mozilla Corporation should make similar contacts via postal mail with executives of the companies and agencies whose Web sites are causing problems. (Many executives are still more responsive to postal mail than to E-mail.) Such contacts to U.S. companies should mention that sniffing might yield Web sites that violate the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA); contacts with U.S. federal agencies should mention that sniffing might yield Web sites that violate Section 508 of the U.S. Rehabilitation Act of 1986 (as amended in 1998). 6. If any complaint (#4 or #5 above) results in a response that no one uses SeaMonkey, the responder should be asked to review the raw server logs to see if SeaMonkey appears among the UA strings (see #3 above). -- David E. Ross http://www.rossde.com/ Go to Mozdev at http://www.mozdev.org/ for quick access to extensions for Firefox, Thunderbird, SeaMonkey, and other Mozilla-related applications. You can access Mozdev much more quickly than you can Mozilla Add-Ons. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Sniffing and Spoofing
David E. Ross wrote: Two recent threads in mozilla.support.seamonkey on this issue resulted in very lengthy discussions. See SeaMonkey and U.S. Government site does not work at news://news.mozilla.org:119/so-dntlowokak43wnz2dnuvz_r6dn...@mozilla.org and Web site work in IE but not in SeaMonkey 2.0 at news://news.mozilla.org:119/xfadnab_io4m4inwnz2dnuvz_oodn...@mozilla.org. I can view the the TVGuide site with no problem and I do not have any spoofing set up. I can not view the Government site in SM 2 as I do not have any spoofing set. as shown here: Build identifier: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.4; en-US; rv:1.9.1.4) Gecko/20091017 SeaMonkey/2.0 These are just more examples of errors being asserted in a Gecko browser when the real problem are invalid sniffing for UA strings by Web servers. These problems are not new. Tracking bug #334967 for these problems was written on 21 Apr 2006. The earliest bug tracked by #334967 was bug #166261, written on 2 September 2002 and now closed. Novice users of SeaMonkey and other non-Firefox browsers that use Gecko are often confused about what sniffing and spoofing are. This was readily noticed in the two threads cited above, where one user repeatedly claimed that he could not be spoofing because he didn't even know what that meant. He very strongly stated that SeaMonkey 2.0 was broken but SeaMonkey 1.1.18 was not because he could view two web sites with the latter but not with the former. When instructed how to report his UA strings for both versions of SeaMonkey in mozilla.support.seamonkey, it was seen that his SeaMonkey 1.1.18 was spoofing Firefox 2.0.0.7. When he migrated to SeaMonkey 2.0, the user-set preference variable to continue such spoofing was not included. The problem is usually attributed to invalid sniffing for Firefox when Web servers should sniff for Gecko. The real problem is that servers should not sniff at all. Interesting, informative, entertaining, aesthetically pleasing Web sites can be created that can be appropriately viewed by any modern browser without sniffing, providing those sites fully comply with the W3C specifications. To deal with this issue, I suggest the following: 1. Every detected instance of invalid sniffing must result in a bug report blocking bug #334967. Documenting the problem via Bugzilla makes it easier to communicate the problem to the Web site owner. 2. Today, much sniffing still excludes Opera, Safari, Konqueror, and Chrome let alone non-Firefox Gecko browsers. When dealing with a bug report tracked by bug #334967, Web site owners should be strongly urged not to sniff at all because sniffing is excluding potential audiences for their sites. 3. When helping users to defeat invalid sniffing, they should be advised to treat spoofing as a temporary measure. Permanent sniffing lends credence to assertions by Web developers that Firefox is the only Gecko browser visiting their sites and that no one uses SeaMonkey. Extensions such as PrefBar or User Agent Switcher should be recommended because they revert the UA string back to the browser's true UA when terminating or starting. Further, any spoofing must include the actual SeaMonkey UA string with Firefox mere added; this is required so that humans reviewing raw server logs will see that SeaMonkey is an actual browser visiting their Web sites. 4. Users must be urged to contact the site owner with a complaint about invalid sniffing, referring both to the bug report and to Gecko is Gecko athttp://wiki.mozilla.org/User:Sardisson/Gecko_is_Gecko. 5. Management at both the Mozilla Foundation and the Mozilla Corporation should make similar contacts via postal mail with executives of the companies and agencies whose Web sites are causing problems. (Many executives are still more responsive to postal mail than to E-mail.) Such contacts to U.S. companies should mention that sniffing might yield Web sites that violate the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA); contacts with U.S. federal agencies should mention that sniffing might yield Web sites that violate Section 508 of the U.S. Rehabilitation Act of 1986 (as amended in 1998). 6. If any complaint (#4 or #5 above) results in a response that no one uses SeaMonkey, the responder should be asked to review the raw server logs to see if SeaMonkey appears among the UA strings (see #3 above). -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.net http://www.vpea.org mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Sniffing and Spoofing
On 12/2/2009 5:09 PM, Phillip Jones wrote: I previously wrote [in part]: Two recent threads in mozilla.support.seamonkey on this issue resulted in very lengthy discussions. See SeaMonkey and U.S. Government site does not work at news://news.mozilla.org:119/so-dntlowokak43wnz2dnuvz_r6dn...@mozilla.org and Web site work in IE but not in SeaMonkey 2.0 at news://news.mozilla.org:119/xfadnab_io4m4inwnz2dnuvz_oodn...@mozilla.org. I can view the the TVGuide site with no problem and I do not have any spoofing set up. I can not view the Government site in SM 2 as I do not have any spoofing set. as shown here: Build identifier: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.4; en-US; rv:1.9.1.4) Gecko/20091017 SeaMonkey/2.0 The issue was not about viewing the TV Guide home page. It was about viewing individual scheduled programs. I haven't tried the TV Guide site myself. I merely followed the discussion. -- David E. Ross http://www.rossde.com/ Go to Mozdev at http://www.mozdev.org/ for quick access to extensions for Firefox, Thunderbird, SeaMonkey, and other Mozilla-related applications. You can access Mozdev much more quickly than you can Mozilla Add-Ons. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Sniffing and Spoofing
Phillip Jones wrote: David E. Ross wrote: Two recent threads in mozilla.support.seamonkey on this issue resulted in very lengthy discussions. See SeaMonkey and U.S. Government site does not work at news://news.mozilla.org:119/so-dntlowokak43wnz2dnuvz_r6dn...@mozilla.org and Web site work in IE but not in SeaMonkey 2.0 at news://news.mozilla.org:119/xfadnab_io4m4inwnz2dnuvz_oodn...@mozilla.org. I can view the the TVGuide site with no problem and I do not have any spoofing set up. I can not view the Government site in SM 2 as I do not have any spoofing set. as shown here: Build identifier: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.4; en-US; rv:1.9.1.4) Gecko/20091017 SeaMonkey/2.0 These are just more examples of errors being asserted in a Gecko browser when the real problem are invalid sniffing for UA strings by Web servers. These problems are not new. Tracking bug #334967 for these problems was written on 21 Apr 2006. The earliest bug tracked by #334967 was bug #166261, written on 2 September 2002 and now closed. Novice users of SeaMonkey and other non-Firefox browsers that use Gecko are often confused about what sniffing and spoofing are. This was readily noticed in the two threads cited above, where one user repeatedly claimed that he could not be spoofing because he didn't even know what that meant. He very strongly stated that SeaMonkey 2.0 was broken but SeaMonkey 1.1.18 was not because he could view two web sites with the latter but not with the former. When instructed how to report his UA strings for both versions of SeaMonkey in mozilla.support.seamonkey, it was seen that his SeaMonkey 1.1.18 was spoofing Firefox 2.0.0.7. When he migrated to SeaMonkey 2.0, the user-set preference variable to continue such spoofing was not included. The problem is usually attributed to invalid sniffing for Firefox when Web servers should sniff for Gecko. The real problem is that servers should not sniff at all. Interesting, informative, entertaining, aesthetically pleasing Web sites can be created that can be appropriately viewed by any modern browser without sniffing, providing those sites fully comply with the W3C specifications. To deal with this issue, I suggest the following: 1. Every detected instance of invalid sniffing must result in a bug report blocking bug #334967. Documenting the problem via Bugzilla makes it easier to communicate the problem to the Web site owner. 2. Today, much sniffing still excludes Opera, Safari, Konqueror, and Chrome let alone non-Firefox Gecko browsers. When dealing with a bug report tracked by bug #334967, Web site owners should be strongly urged not to sniff at all because sniffing is excluding potential audiences for their sites. 3. When helping users to defeat invalid sniffing, they should be advised to treat spoofing as a temporary measure. Permanent sniffing lends credence to assertions by Web developers that Firefox is the only Gecko browser visiting their sites and that no one uses SeaMonkey. Extensions such as PrefBar or User Agent Switcher should be recommended because they revert the UA string back to the browser's true UA when terminating or starting. Further, any spoofing must include the actual SeaMonkey UA string with Firefox mere added; this is required so that humans reviewing raw server logs will see that SeaMonkey is an actual browser visiting their Web sites. 4. Users must be urged to contact the site owner with a complaint about invalid sniffing, referring both to the bug report and to Gecko is Gecko athttp://wiki.mozilla.org/User:Sardisson/Gecko_is_Gecko. 5. Management at both the Mozilla Foundation and the Mozilla Corporation should make similar contacts via postal mail with executives of the companies and agencies whose Web sites are causing problems. (Many executives are still more responsive to postal mail than to E-mail.) Such contacts to U.S. companies should mention that sniffing might yield Web sites that violate the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA); contacts with U.S. federal agencies should mention that sniffing might yield Web sites that violate Section 508 of the U.S. Rehabilitation Act of 1986 (as amended in 1998). 6. If any complaint (#4 or #5 above) results in a response that no one uses SeaMonkey, the responder should be asked to review the raw server logs to see if SeaMonkey appears among the UA strings (see #3 above). Phillip, the TV Guide site *looks* like it displays fine in SM 2.0 or 1.1.18, but not all of the functions work. Specifically, if you go to the program listing and click onone of the shows, you are supposed to get a box with information on that show. If your UA is not spoofed, you get a blank box. If you spoof the UA as Firefox, you get the information. Please test this and report back. Lee ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Sniffing and Spoofing
David E. Ross wrote: On 12/2/2009 5:09 PM, Phillip Jones wrote: I previously wrote [in part]: Two recent threads in mozilla.support.seamonkey on this issue resulted in very lengthy discussions. See SeaMonkey and U.S. Government site does not work at news://news.mozilla.org:119/so-dntlowokak43wnz2dnuvz_r6dn...@mozilla.org and Web site work in IE but not in SeaMonkey 2.0 at news://news.mozilla.org:119/xfadnab_io4m4inwnz2dnuvz_oodn...@mozilla.org. I can view the the TVGuide site with no problem and I do not have any spoofing set up. I can not view the Government site in SM 2 as I do not have any spoofing set. as shown here: Build identifier: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X 10.4; en-US; rv:1.9.1.4) Gecko/20091017 SeaMonkey/2.0 The issue was not about viewing the TV Guide home page. It was about viewing individual scheduled programs. I haven't tried the TV Guide site myself. I merely followed the discussion. I can't see the individual listing's either using a Mac and SM 1.1.18...but I have a question - do you have to log into the TV Guide site in order to see the individual listings?..i.e.; have a subscription? -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Sniffing and Spoofing
Rufus wrote: David E. Ross wrote: On 12/2/2009 5:09 PM, Phillip Jones wrote: I previously wrote [in part]: /snip/ I can't see the individual listing's either using a Mac and SM 1.1.18...but I have a question - do you have to log into the TV Guide site in order to see the individual listings?..i.e.; have a subscription? No, you just need to spoof as FF. Lee ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Sniffing and Spoofing
David E. Ross wrote: 5. Management at both the Mozilla Foundation and the Mozilla Corporation should make similar contacts via postal mail with executives of the companies and agencies whose Web sites are causing problems. (Many executives are still more responsive to postal mail than to E-mail.) Excellent point. Some of today's top executives are not comfortable having anyone see them typing at a keyboard. For them typing is for administrative assistants, not for top management. Harumph!! ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Sniffing and Spoofing
On 12/02/2009 04:08 PM, David E. Ross wrote: Two recent threads in mozilla.support.seamonkey on this issue resulted in very lengthy discussions. See Seamonkey and U.S. Government site does not work at news://news.mozilla.org:119/so-dntlowokak43wnz2dnuvz_r6dn...@mozilla.org and Web site work in IE but not in Seamonkey 2.0 at news://news.mozilla.org:119/xfadnab_io4m4inwnz2dnuvz_oodn...@mozilla.org. These are just more examples of errors being asserted in a Gecko browser when the real problem are invalid sniffing for UA strings by Web servers. These problems are not new. Tracking bug #334967 for these problems was written on 21 Apr 2006. The earliest bug tracked by #334967 was bug #166261, written on 2 September 2002 and now closed. If you're pointing folks to bugs, I recommend that you include the full url/ui to the bug report. Many users haven't a clue as to how to view Tracking bug #334967 etc. I'll leave it up to you to provide the links. ... To deal with this issue, I suggest the following: ... 3. When helping users to defeat invalid sniffing, they should be advised to treat spoofing as a temporary measure. Permanent sniffing lends credence to assertions by Web developers that Firefox is the only Gecko browser visiting their sites and that no one uses SeaMonkey. Extensions such as PrefBar or User Agent Switcher should be recommended because they revert the UA string back to the browser's true UA when terminating or starting. Further, any spoofing must include the actual SeaMonkey UA string with Firefox mere added; this is required so that humans reviewing raw server logs will see that SeaMonkey is an actual browser visiting their Web sites. ... I pretty much agree with all but #3 (excepting the last sentence). While I certainly agree that permanent spoofing... we also need to deal with reality. I have multiple commercial customers and relatives/friends that use SeaMonkey based upon my recommendations. Quite honestly I simply do not have enough hours in the day to take trouble calls about xyz site won't display, only to find out the site is Fx sniffing. I set them up on first install with general.useragent.extra.firefox;NOT Firefox/3.5 and prefbar. Yes, I could spend time teaching them to use prefbar for spoofing each time they run into a problem with a site, but I won't bother. Ever had a clerk from a retail store call and complain that SeaMonkey can't connect to xyz site then try to troubleshoot that over the phone? Clerk puts you on hold 4-5 times while helping an in-store customer, then doesn't have the ability to modify about:config etc. So, sorry; general.useragent.extra.firefox;NOT Firefox/version is my solution one that I'll stick with for everyone I support w/SeaMonkey except my own systems. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Sniffing and Spoofing
David E. Ross wrote: (snip) A great idea but getting millions of webmasters to change billions of web sites could be a problem. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Sniffing and Spoofing
I think the Sniffing is a leftover from the Netscape /IE War . Thats about the only way they could come up with Accurate Numbers ... Counting the downloads of either Netscape or IE would not be that accurates as to USER who actually use what they Download. The Good old days was when we Used Winsocks and Trumpet . ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Sniffing and Spoofing
On 12/2/2009 7:53 PM, Paul wrote: David E. Ross wrote: (snip) A great idea but getting millions of webmasters to change billions of web sites could be a problem. Many sites that sniff for a UA string do so for specific versions. That is, they sniff for Firefox/3 and not for merely Firefox. When Firefox 4.0 is someday released, they will have to go through some site maintenance. Today, many of them are just now starting to sniff for Chrome. And every time they change a Web page, they must change for all the different browsers for which they are sniffing. Sniffing thus increases the overall maintenance effort for a Web site. There might be some upfront cost for creating a single set of Web pages (both HTML/XHTML and CSS) that have acceptable appearance for all modern browsers in place of multiple sets, one for each browser. In the long run, the cost of maintenance will drop significantly. If the pages are W3C-compliant, no new cost would be required when a new browser enters the market. Web site maintenance costs driven by outside circumstances -- by browser developers -- would be eliminated. -- David E. Ross http://www.rossde.com/ Go to Mozdev at http://www.mozdev.org/ for quick access to extensions for Firefox, Thunderbird, SeaMonkey, and other Mozilla-related applications. You can access Mozdev much more quickly than you can Mozilla Add-Ons. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
