Re: [Sursound] Study Comparing Ambisonic and Channel Based Systems
Hi, Phi ( play on words, there) As Augustine and Dave have alluded to, it's simply not possible to say which is the "best" - that would be like asking whether a Ferrari or a tractor is best (you can pay similar amounts for each) - it depends whether you're going on the Nurburgring or a muddy field, or indeed, a trip to the supermarket. But an important point is that, for a specific layout, ther's nothing stops you using multiple encodings in parallel - FOA, HOA, VBAP, etc, because what is good for spaciousness and ambience isn't necessarily great for controlling point sources, or image size and so on - and none are great for controlling distance (actually, "range"). So a host like Reaper can quite happily accommodate multiple encode/decoding regimes. The other point, as others may well point out, is that no encode/decode regime is quite as "scalable" as we might like. Especially for large-scale performances, the decisions taken in a small-scale studio rig have to be reworked, because there seems to be a "perceptual constancy" about actual speaker distances (with the partial exception of anechoic listening circumstances) which distorts image size and plausible movement. So, in a way, it's better to work backwards - from eventual display circumstances back to appropriate encoding. Good luck! Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk<mailto:p.len...@derby.ac.uk> t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox University of Derby, Kedleston Road, Derby, DE22 1GB, UK From: Sursound on behalf of Augustine Leudar Sent: 29 April 2019 20:15:21 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Study Comparing Ambisonic and Channel Based Systems Hi Phi, I use 8 speakers often enough and have covered faily large areas and you can get great effects including height with only 8 speakers, in fact you can get height with just one speaker if you stick it up a tree :) ( its not how many speakers you have its where you put them ;) An octophonic cube works fine for height - I wouldn'y necessarily use ambisonics for that or play around converting thing to/frombinaural etc (unless you have recordings you want to use already recorded in a particular fomat). It really depends where you want to have your installation and what your objectives - I do a lot of stuff in forests and other site specific locationsand I often use very irregular speaker arrays to achieve certain effects - I may use a cube or a grid but not always. I have found amplitude panning the most effective for this. You can use Max MSP to map your speaker array with software such as spat or ICST and then pan and automate your sources around. I have achieved far more convincing proximity effects with just 8 speakers positioned carefully in a forest than the 48 peripheral spoeaker array at SARC using HOA. This is simnply because the sound actually IS closer to your ear - so ther eisnt really an trickery involved, no need to con anyones HRTFs etc If you dont want to play around with Max I think.. Pyramix has something that lets you draw a speaker map in it. Otherwise you could use even a normal octophonic panner in reaper or whatever- if some of the speakers are higher than others,the sound will appear to go up when it reaches those speakers - you just have to be creative with your routing, On Fri, 26 Apr 2019 at 17:12, Phi Shu wrote: > Reading above, curious then, for those of us who don't have the luxury of > working with 24 channels plus, what is the best way to utilise 8 speakers > such that one can produce with a larger array in mind? (or at least > approach an approximation of how it might sound). > > How to approach monitoring height with only 8 speakers? An 8 channel cube > array with a virtual speaker solution? Or would it be better to do this > type of spatialistion using HOA to binaural? - therefore monitor on > headphones. > > What is the best tool for creating so-called virtual speakers anyway? Can > the AIIRADecoder do this? > > Or, is it the case that trying to produce for a proprietary large array is > pointless unless one has sufficient speakers to monitor vertical sound > placement accurately? > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 10:58 AM Pierre Alexandre Tremblay < > tremb...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > I forgot to say: Jörn Nettingsmeier ’s experience was life changing. He > > really knows about the reality of real-life in-hall use of HOA and was > > incredibly wise and generous. > > > > Great discussion with Anders Tveit were important too. Pierre Guillot’s > > help with sorting the many, many issues of the many, many combinations of > >
Re: [Sursound] Anyone ever tried to bypass youtube/facebook360 player Ambisonics decoder?
Or, just one mono file, successively to each input... Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox University of Derby, Kedleston Road, Derby, DE22 1GB, UK From: Sursound on behalf of David Pickett Sent: 18 February 2019 19:07:46 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Anyone ever tried to bypass youtube/facebook360 player Ambisonics decoder? Why not make up a signal from six totally different mono wavefiles and see where they land after decoding? David At 17:33 18-02-19, you wrote: >Content-Transfer-Encoding: base646 channel format on YT: > >https://github.com/google/spatial-media/blob/master/docs/spatial-audio-rfc.md > >So channel ordering (normally) is W, Y, Z, X, L, R. > >It is possible to change the channel layout, which might be a >problematic feature... > >“For example, a channel layout of 4, 5, 0, 1, 2, 3 indicates that the >layout of the stored audio is /L/, /R/, /W/, /Y/, /Z/, /X/.” > >Best, > >Stefan > >Citando Marc Lavallée : > >>Sean, >�‚�ˆ[ÝHØ[ˆ\ÙHH[Ý]X™KYØÜš\€> >(https://rg3.github.io/youtube-dl/) to download only the appropriate >>audio stream. Here's how I was able to use it. First I inspected the >]˜Z[X›H›Ü›X]΂€£à > >[Ý]X™KYQˆšÎ‹ËÝÝÝËž[Ý]X™K˜ÛÛKÝØ]ÚÝ�X’ÕŒR@S-ATmQ" >�‚�‚‚’FVçFfVB2f÷&ÖG2&÷fFærdô7G eams: 327 (aac), 338 (opus) >>and 339 (vorbis). >�‚�‚€ So to get the aac stream (with an audio >container, using the "-x" option): >�‚�‚‚÷WGV&RÖFÂÖb3#rׂ&‡GG3 >//www.youtube.com/watch�X’ÕŒRTËPUTH‚�‚€£à£âF†R&W7VÀting >stream has 6 channels, so 2 of them are silent. No >>idea about the channel ordering. If prefered, the opus and vorbis >Ý™X[\È]™H >Ú[›™[È >›Ý >ŠK‚�‚�‚€£â It should also be possible to create >a "stream and decode" pipeline >\Ú[™È\ÈÛÛ[X[™ >Ú]H‹[ÈHˆÜ[Àn, without the "-x" option): >�‚�‚‚÷WGV&RÖFÂÖb3#rÐo - >>"https://www.youtube.com/watch�X’ÕŒRTËPUTHˆ >> > some_command_line_decoder >>�‚�‚‚F†R'6öÖUö6öÖÖæEöÀine_decoder" is a script or software that can >>decode the stream from STDIN (so a proper Unix OS is required). >�‚�ˆH[Ý]X™KYØÜš\Ø[ˆ[ÛÈ™H\ÙYÚ]Hmpv video player >>(https://mpv.io/); see the ytdl-format and ytdl-raw options. >> >�ˆHÜH\È[ˈÛÛÙ luck! >> >�ˆX\˜�‚€£à£âƒ#’Ó"Ó‚:S£3æÒâÀ Sean Devonport a écrit : >> >>>Hey everyone, >‚ƒà ø(> I'm hoping someone may be able to >provide some information to me on this >>�‚7V&¦V7Bà ø(> >‚ƒâ’vçBFð bypass youtube/facebook360 Ambisonics decoding and stream >‚ƒâF—&V7FÇ’Fò×’Ö&—6öæ2FV6öFW"fVVFær×VÇF—Àe loudspeakers. >>�€£à(ø Does anyone have any bright ideas to >>get the raw encoded Ambisonic format >>�‚7G&Paming from these videos�€£à(ø >>Û›HÛ™HHØ[ˆ[€k of is to create a video player that decodes the 360 >>> >>> video, but then leaves the audio encoded and streams that out from the >>> >>> browser. >>�€£à(ø Any help/ideas would be greatly appreciated! >‚ƒà ø(> All the best, >�ˆ××€> >Ý\œÛÝ[™XZ[[™È\Ý�‚‚£â7W'6÷VæD×W62çgBæVGPhttps://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound >- >unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. >-- next part -- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: ><https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190218/8afb11fb/attachment.html> >___ >Sursound mailing list >Sursound@music.vt.edu >https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound >- unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please reply to the sender and let them know. Key University contacts: http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190218/e87cc68b/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Anyone ever tried to bypass youtube/facebook360 player Ambisonics decoder?
Is it possible to simply transcode back to B format, then re- decode it locally? Or does that miss the point of what you want to do? Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox University of Derby, Kedleston Road, Derby, DE22 1GB, UK Sensitivity: Internal -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Sean Devonport Sent: 18 February 2019 10:30 To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: [Sursound] Anyone ever tried to bypass youtube/facebook360 player Ambisonics decoder? Hey everyone, I'm hoping someone may be able to provide some information to me on this subject. I want to bypass youtube/facebook360 Ambisonics decoding and stream directly to my Ambisonic decoder feeding multiple loudspeakers. Does anyone have any bright ideas to get the raw encoded Ambisonic format streaming from these videos? Only one I can think of is to create a video player that decodes the 360 video, but then leaves the audio encoded and streams that out from the browser. Any help/ideas would be greatly appreciated! All the best, -- Sean Devonport -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190218/7d3b765a/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please reply to the sender and let them know. Key University contacts: http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Hardest wearing outdoor speakers
Augustine - I'd like to know what you find out - obviously, there are 'outdoor speakers', though whether 'decades' is a realistic ambition, I've no idea - but I'd like to. I don't know whether some degree of physical protection from the diverse forces of nature might be needed! Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk<mailto:p.len...@derby.ac.uk> t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox University of Derby, Kedleston Road, Derby, DE22 1GB, UK From: Sursound on behalf of Augustine Leudar Sent: 24 January 2019 10:43:57 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Hardest wearing outdoor speakers Ps Obviously media player would be covered On Thursday, 24 January 2019, Augustine Leudar wrote: > If you needed speakers for a permanent outdoor installation with speakers > than need to last decades - does such a thing exist ? Any recommendations ? > What about media players ? > > -- > Dr. Augustine Leudar > Artistic Director Magik Door LTD > Company Number : NI635217 > Registered 63 Ballycoan rd, > Belfast BT88LL > www.magikdoor.net<http://www.magikdoor.net> > +44(0)7555784775 > > > -- Dr. Augustine Leudar Artistic Director Magik Door LTD Company Number : NI635217 Registered 63 Ballycoan rd, Belfast BT88LL www.magikdoor.net<http://www.magikdoor.net> +44(0)7555784775 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190124/6458fde5/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please reply to the sender and let them know. Key University contacts: http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190124/88462372/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Audeze tetrahedral microphone
Things is with these time alignment issues- you sometimes need negative delays... Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox University of Derby, Kedleston Road, Derby, DE22 1GB, UK Sensitivity: Internal -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of seva, soundcurrent mastering Sent: 13 December 2018 11:13 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Audeze tetrahedral microphone ah. Tardis alignment. i think it's to the left of the door as you come in. On Tue, Dec 11, 2018 at 7:47 AM Dave Malham wrote: > Oh dear, knew there was something wrong with the settings in the > Tardis tomorrow. Should will have remembered it. :-) > > Dave > > On Tue, 11 Dec 2018 at 05:28, seva, soundcurrent mastering < > s...@soundcurrent.com> wrote: > > > ah, after i posted the question about audeze i found this thread > > where > Dave > > the madman Malham thoroughly answered it! just three years earlier > > than > i > > wanted to know... > > > > seva > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 5:34 AM Dave Malham > > wrote: > > > > > Well, , ah, this (and their website) all smacks a bit of > > > Snake > > Oil > > > to me, though I could be completely wrong. As far as I can find, > > > there > > are > > > no technical specifications anywhere (did I miss something?) which > > > is always a bit suspect when big claims are made. For all their > > > eulogising about Gerzon, did they actually read his paper on the > > > soundfield mic > from > > > the 1975 AES conference in London? The problems of large > > > capsules/wide spacings are clearly spelt out. There is no way such > > > a large array can > > NOT > > > suffer from horrendous spatial aliasing down to quite low frequencies. > > Now, > > > for on-axis sounds there is no reason such microphones shouldn't > > > be > good, > > > even excellent, as was pointed out by Peter Baxandall in 1980 > > (Loudspeakers > > > as High-Quality Microphones) < > > > http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=3776> > > > at the London AES convention. Off axis, on the other hand, the > > > response can't be anything but awful with, for a 100mm capsule, > > > nulls starting > at > > > mid frequencies. > > > > > > Tell you what, though, would make some wonderfully freaky images > > > for electro-acoustic pieces ;-) > > > > > > Dave > > > <http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=3776> > > > > > > On 9 September 2015 at 19:40, Joseph Anderson < > > > j.ander...@ambisonictoolkit.net> wrote: > > > > > > > Hello All, > > > > > > > > Of interest to this thread, a video posted by Water Lily Acoustics: > > > > https://www.facebook.com/WaterLilyAcoustics/videos/8690442498447 > > > > 36/ > > > > > > > > From the page: > > > > > > > > In this video one sees an Ambisonic (B format) array of four > > transducers: > > > > > an omni directional microphone, in conjunction with three, > push/pull, > > > > > figure-of-eight, planar magnetic microphones, arranged in a > > > coincidental > > > > > manner. > > > > > The figure-of-eight, true push-pull, planar magnetic > > > > > microphones - employing 3 micron thick film (including the > > > > > vacuum deposited audio > > > > traces) > > > > > and Neodymium magnets - are prototypes. Designed by Dragoslav > Colich, > > > the > > > > > chief designer at Audeze and the man behind their > > > > > extraordinary > > > > headphones! > > > > > A master of planar and electrostatic transducer technology, Mr. > > Colich > > > > has > > > > > been busy at work and here you see the fruits of his labor > > > > > Tests > made > > > > with > > > > > the array shown in the video below, has lead to the creation > > > > > of a "soundfield" type microphone, with four sub-cardioid, > > > > > planar > magnetic > > > > > drivers in a tetrahedral arrangement. All these outstanding > > > microp
Re: [Sursound] Sounds in Space 2018 Booking Open
I've stayed at Mr Grundy's - and it was Ok - very handy. And they have beer, apparently Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk<mailto:p.len...@derby.ac.uk> t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox University of Derby, Kedleston Road, Derby, DE22 1GB, UK From: Sursound on behalf of Rob Lawrence Sent: 11 May 2018 18:00:31 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sounds in Space 2018 Booking Open Thanks Bruce - looking forward to it! Can you recommend any nearby accommodation - given that it is a two-day event this year? Have a good weekend and thanks, Rob On 10 May 2018 at 16:14, Bruce Wiggins wrote: > Booking for attendees is now open for this year's Sounds in Space (26/27th > June at the University of Derby, UK). > > The booking page can be found at : http://soundsinspace.co.uk/?page_id=13 > The presentations to be delivered on the day can be found at (with more to > be added soon, along with timings!) : > http://soundsinspace.co.uk/?page_id=357 > Last year's event videos and presentations (so you can get a feel for the > event!) can be found at : https://www.brucewiggins.co.uk/?page_id=881 > > cheers > > Bruce Wiggins > University of Derby > UK > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > -- r...@soundtheory.co.uk http://www.soundtheory.co.uk/ @robislistening Rob Lawrence BSc (Hons) Audio Production MCP, ITIL (ISEB) and LCIA (Cert IV) +44 777 885 8668 This e-mail message may contain confidential or legally privileged information and is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s). Any unauthorised disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or the taking of any action in reliance on the information herein is prohibited. E-mails are not secure and cannot be guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, or contain viruses. Anyone who communicates with me by e-mail is deemed to have accepted these risks. I am not responsible for errors or omissions in this message and deny any responsibility for any damage arising from the use of e-mail. Any opinion and other statement contained in this message and any attachment are solely those of myself and no other company. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20180511/aa36cd90/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please reply to the sender and let them know. Key University contacts: http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20180511/326e0324/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] ***UNCHECKED*** Zoom H2N - thoughts?
Well, of course, you can just listen to 'W' Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox University of Derby, Kedleston Road, Derby, DE22 1GB, UK Sensitivity: Internal -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of umashankar manthravadi Sent: 10 April 2018 12:02 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] ***UNCHECKED*** Zoom H2N - thoughts? No and I do not know any ambisonic recordings that do not need some processing, Even when the output is B format, you have to process it to hear it. umashankar Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10 From: Sursound on behalf of Oddity Medium Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2018 4:29:13 PM To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] ***UNCHECKED*** Zoom H2N - thoughts? but what is the putput of the brahma-in-zoom? is it similar output to h2n? for example suppose i dont have any recorder with me and i just need to record something quickly, and i don't care about ambisonics so much as much as getting a high quality ambience/recording, can i use the brahma-in-zoom? will it output WAVs? or will i need to convert it with a computer i guess my question is, do i need to do extra processing for every recording with the brahma-in-zoom? cometimes i dont want to use a DAW/software, i just wanna drag/drop the recording into a drive, straight up WAV's and just play them, and not muck around with conversion, ardour, bla bla - can i do this with the b-i-z? i guess i'm saying, is the workflow much more complicated? frankly, i dont wanna be near computers, i wanna be outdoors. also, can i monitor live with headphone the b-i-z? On Tue, Apr 10, 2018 at 12:29 PM, umashankar manthravadi < umasha...@hotmail.com> wrote: > My modified Brahma-in-Zoom eliminates several of the flows. First, I > am using matched sets of 14 mm capsules, mounted on a true tetrahedral array. > Two, I calibrate the microphone, which eliminates quite a few of the > irregularities which come from mounting the array in the body. I have > some very good quality recordings using Brahma-in-Zoom. > > > > It is till as compact and convenient if not as cheap. > > > > umashankar > > > > Sent from > Mail<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2 > Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=02%7C01%7C%7C5b10 > 2313b34a42cc2bcd08d59ed224e7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C > 0%7C636589547754304766&sdata=wQ0U4zNm8%2BAnKKo54gfSDIwNeac2h2NttQ7XtQc > xoUw%3D&reserved=0> for Windows 10 > > > > > From: Sursound on behalf of Enda Bates > < eba...@tcd.ie> > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2018 3:52:41 PM > To: sursound@music.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [Sursound] ***UNCHECKED*** Zoom H2N - thoughts? > > Hi all, > > so as Gus mentioned we did a detailed comparison of a number of > Ambisonic microphones including the H2n, which you can find a summary > of on my blog or in the original papers in the AES library for all the > details. > Here are my general thoughts. > > - in general the H2n unsurprisingly can't quite compete with a proper > Ambisonic microphone as it's missing height, and the irregular spacing > of the capsules causes a reduction in localization accuracy and some > other issues. > > - however, it is definitely usable, and the fidelity of the inbuilt > microphones is not bad at all considering the price, and ease of use. > Especially for capturing general ambiences or the like it's more than > usable, and I nearly always record with a H2n just as a backup as well > as another Ambisonic microphone (this saved me on a couple of occasions). > > - the price, and physical size are very useful as it is something you > can stick in a bag and turn on and setup in seconds, which make it > very handy for off the cuff recordings (although that's true of the > Brahama also of course). > > > So my two cents, it's flawed but actually very good for the money. > > enda > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was > scrubbed... > URL: <https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= > https%3A%2F%2Fmail.music.vt.edu%2Fmailman%2Fprivate% > 2Fsursound%2Fattachments%2F20180410%2Fe48390eb%2Fattachment.html&data= > 02% > 7C01%7C%7C3b9544d336c1452c1b2008d59ecd092f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435a > aaa %7C1%7C0%7C636589525812854763&sdata=BPx78jbJNocRQ%2BU9%2FYc% > 2Bx44zjS
Re: [Sursound] A submittal for a patent on Ambisonics?
...and interaural level differences for low frequencies Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk<mailto:p.len...@derby.ac.uk> t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox University of Derby, Kedleston Road, Derby, DE22 1GB, UK From: Sursound on behalf of jack reynolds Sent: 23 January 2018 11:58:51 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] A submittal for a patent on Ambisonics? It looks like a method for binaural rendering with multiple distance HRTFs. Ambisonics could be one of the inputs, but it seems to be aimed more at object based virtual reality, where the listener is more likely to come very close to an audio source. Most HRTFs are currently measured at 1m distance, so any objects closer than 1m are not currently rendered correctly. Far field HRTFs are closer to plane waves, whereas close up audio objects emit more spherical waves, creating greater differences in interaural time difference (ITD). Jack On 23 January 2018 at 11:18, Bearcat Şándor wrote: > I don't know a lot about patent law, but is this an attempt to tie up our > beloved Ambisonics? > > http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2017/0366912.html > > If so, can we do anything about it? > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/ > attachments/20180123/8502d237/attachment.html> > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > -- 07889727365 02036861372 3 Swimmers Lane Haggerston London E2 8FR www.facebook.com/reynoldsmicrophones<http://www.facebook.com/reynoldsmicrophones> www.sohovr.co.uk<http://www.sohovr.co.uk> -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20180123/0de2f264/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please reply to the sender and let them know. Key University contacts: http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20180123/4cbe39eb/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Getting rid of a Lake HURON
Ben, hi - I see David pipped me to it, but as a runner up - I'd be interested; it would make a good Master's project for one of our students to get it functioning and used in a contemporary setting (such as a small 2nd order rig for touring) cheers ppl Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk<mailto:p.len...@derby.ac.uk> t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox University of Derby, Kedleston Road, Derby, DE22 1GB, UK From: Sursound on behalf of Ben Claridge Sent: 20 September 2017 18:55:42 To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: [Sursound] Getting rid of a Lake HURON Hi, We are having a clear out and have come across our old Lake HURON which has DSP cards for 16 channels of in/out. I believe it is now 20 years old so a real ambisonics antique! If anyone out there is interested in taking it off our hands and getting it running again, please send me a message. Thanks, Ben GILLIERON SCOTT gsacoustics.org -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20170920/227c64a1/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please reply to the sender and let them know. Key University contacts: http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20170920/94351d0d/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Multiple ambisonic microphone array?
I've rather simplistically used 3xSF mics, in a line, spaced approx. 25m (between no.1 and no.2 - hence spacing between 1 and 3 is 50m) to record adjacent 'cells', for replay in reciprocal fashion. The recorded venue was a choir in a cathedral, the replay in a large (but smaller than the cathedral!) foyer in the University. Visitors could then enter the 'virtual cathedral', move through the audience space, through the choir, out the other side - and the transformation of direct-to-indirect energy ratio was perceived appropriately for ambulant listeners, yielding appropriate changes in range perception as one approached sources. The odd local peculiarity due to precedence effects, but generally, the overall impressions were of a virtual space that one could move about in. Cheers ppl Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox University of Derby, Kedleston Road, Derby, DE22 1GB, UK -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Steven Boardman Sent: 18 September 2017 14:56 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Multiple ambisonic microphone array? I have thought about doing this. It would need very good accuracy in placement, probably using equilateral triangles. Distance would have to be taken into account, delay wise, and probably frequency too. A zoom/move process would also be needed to realign each of the soundfields to centre reference. By no means trivial ... I am following this thread! Best Steve On 18 Sep 2017 13:03, "Matthew Barnard" wrote: > Hi All, > > > > Has anyone had any experience of utilising multiple ambisonic > microphones in a spaced array for a recording? > > > > I’m looking for any examples (and to hear of pitfalls) in prep for a > potential project. > > > > Thanks > > Matt > > > > Dr. Matt Barnard > > University of Hull > > > > > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was > scrubbed... > URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/ > attachments/20170918/21ee8d77/attachment.html> > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20170918/3d018484/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please reply to the sender and let them know. Key University contacts: http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
bye
Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts, Humanities and Education
School of Arts
e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
t: 01332 593155
https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
University of Derby,
Kedleston Road,
Derby,
DE22 1GB, UK
-Original Message-
From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine
Leudar
Sent: 18 August 2017 14:08
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
its just so much better than the chocolate based music I was making before
Peter - used to really clog up my ears. Right seriously now - I'm outta here !
On 18 August 2017 at 14:04, Peter Lennox wrote:
> Hang on - we're having an academic discussion here - you can't just
> charge off and go and actually do something! ;-)
>
> Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> Senior Lecturer in Perception
> College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts
>
> e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> t: 01332 593155
>
> https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
>
> University of Derby,
> Kedleston Road,
> Derby,
> DE22 1GB, UK
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
> Augustine Leudar
> Sent: 18 August 2017 13:59
> To: Surround Sound discussion group
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
>
> very well said Peter. Right enough of this - I'm off to make some
> sound based music :)
>
> On 18 August 2017 at 13:47, Peter Lennox wrote:
>
> > Yes - academia generally is in a strange place. - I used to love it
> > - I remember being asked by someone I know why I worked for that
> > kind of money (he claimed more for transport against his tax bill
> > than I
> > grossed) - I said "because I get paid to think" - he said fair
> > enough, I
> get that.
> > But now, any thinking is strictly on my own time.
> > The problem is something like this: - the original reason for
> > something coming into existence is rarely identical to the reason
> > for continuing to exist.
> >
> > So, The word "university" is derived from the Latin universitas
> > magistrorum et scholarium, which roughly means "community of
> > teachers and scholars." (Wikipedia) - but in fact, scholarship is
> > now quite difficult to find the time and energy for, teaching is
> > defined by the measurement methods (to the exclusion of all else)
> > and community happens once a year at a conference.
> > In fact, there are so many competing vested interests
> > ("stakeholders") that the business (extremely big business) has become
> > 'weaponised'
> > In the midst of all this, the footsoldiers in the trenches have
> > little influence on what universities should be doing, what academia is for.
> > And when did we last hear the word "wisdom"?
> >
> > So - the only reasons I can think of to study at PhD level are
> > personal
> > ones: the knowledge (and possibly even a glimmer of wisdom) itself -
> > the joy of discovering something new, the conviction that one didn't
> > simply mark time through life.
> > I would NOT advocate PhD level study as some passport to something
> > else (as with any academic qualification, actually - only matters if
> > you haven't got it, but doesn't guarantee anything whatsoever).
> > In other words, it's perhaps handy to think of a PhD as essentially
> > an amateur (as in 'for the love of..') thing. As such, the whole
> > thing, from proposal to methodology to types of conclusion, should,
> > first and foremost, please oneself. If others happen to like it, that's a
> > bonus.
> > Cheers
> > ppl
> >
> > Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> > Senior Lecturer in Perception
> > College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts
> >
> > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> > t: 01332 593155
> >
> > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
> >
> > University of Derby,
> > Kedleston Road,
> > Derby,
> > DE22 1GB, UK
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
> > Phi Shu
> > Sent: 18 August 2017 13:02
> > To: Surround Sound discussion group
> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
> >
> > true that International Art English
> > <https://www.canopycanopycanopy.com/contents/international_
Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
As far as having a well-developed question, see
http://www.weizmann.ac.il/mcb/UriAlon/sites/mcb.UriAlon/files/uploads/medawar.pdf
- "is the scientific paper a fraud?" - Medawar (along with thinkers like
Popper) argues that the having of an idea, or the formulation of a hypothesis
isn't itself actually scientific - inspiration is one thing, then
scientifically testing it is another. But there is an inexorable pressure on us
to pretend we knew what we were doing all along - and began with a
well-conditioned problem ("research question") which we deductively tested to
destruction.
But a lot of the time, the original question was something like "what happens
if I poke this?"
Einstein (supposedly) said "...if we knew what it was we were doing, we
wouldn't call it research"
Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts, Humanities and Education
School of Arts
e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
t: 01332 593155
https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
University of Derby,
Kedleston Road,
Derby,
DE22 1GB, UK
-Original Message-
From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine
Leudar
Sent: 18 August 2017 13:54
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
I actually quite enjoyed the writing ironically and I have high regard for the
goals and principles of scholarship. I believe a thorough knowledge of whats
been done before (lit review) referencing etc are all admirable and essential.
However I do not agree with you that research needs to have a written
conceptual framework in order to be considered research - this is a circular
argument that I have heard many times - however I do no think this should
define what a research is. It refers to a method imported from science and
philosophy - have a question - experiment or argue to answer that question -
but I do not believe such a focussed approach produces innovation and new
discoveries in the arts - in fact historically it wasn't .My PhD was
multidicplinary -in science and art. Ironically many people I know in the
sciences said the actual discoveries they made in their research had nothing to
do with their research questions but were accidental observations they made
along the way - yet in the arts I found people far more dogmatic about"trying
to stay focussed" , almost as if the arts were desperately trying to justify
its position in academies. I found the people in the labs to be vibrant and
creative - whereas in the arts everyone was trying to take themselves so
seriously. The actual geniuses I met in the sciences never tried to "act smart"
they were usually very down to earth - in the arts . welloften
desperate to show how clever they were with their thesaurus always on hand.
I would argue the fundamental goal of the research is to add to the field of
human knowledge, to explore new areas to create things that haven't been done
before (not necessarily new technologies) - to conduct research. I am aware of
plenty of PhD's that have a perfectly worded "conceptual framework" but add
very very little if anything to the field of human knowledge but split hairs
over and over again in order to feign the appearance of breaking new ground. On
the other hand I knew some absolute geniuses who came up with incredible
original work - but they dropped out as they were hopeless at writing. So is
the goal of artistic research to create incredible innovative new artforms that
have never been done before, works of art to rival the great classics of the
past - or is it to provide a tight conceptual framework. If research is always
restricted to a tight cohesive goal focussed on one outcome and avenue of
investigation only - many other avenues of discovery and many modern inventions
would never have been made.
No-one would deny that many of the greatest artists of our time made huge
progress and developments in the arts - but often would write nothing at all
about their work. They were also conducting research - I hold that we need to
reapraise our approach to the arts in academia and it seems that whilst I am in
a minority - there are some at least that hold the same views . Otherwise we
will be selecting for people who are good at writing academese rather than
actually creating innovative artwork - and of course once they reach positions
of power they will hold that this is the only real way to conduct research and
they will only open the gates to those that think like them and that talk like
them. Its a self perpetuating monster and its a monster the public will not
fund forever - thus the sudden lurch towards making contacts with industry in
ats academies.. There of course exceptional people in academia capable of both
writing and creating fantastic artwork and
Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
Hang on - we're having an academic discussion here - you can't just charge off
and go and actually do something! ;-)
Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts, Humanities and Education
School of Arts
e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
t: 01332 593155
https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
University of Derby,
Kedleston Road,
Derby,
DE22 1GB, UK
-Original Message-
From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine
Leudar
Sent: 18 August 2017 13:59
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
very well said Peter. Right enough of this - I'm off to make some sound based
music :)
On 18 August 2017 at 13:47, Peter Lennox wrote:
> Yes - academia generally is in a strange place. - I used to love it -
> I remember being asked by someone I know why I worked for that kind of
> money (he claimed more for transport against his tax bill than I
> grossed) - I said "because I get paid to think" - he said fair enough, I get
> that.
> But now, any thinking is strictly on my own time.
> The problem is something like this: - the original reason for
> something coming into existence is rarely identical to the reason for
> continuing to exist.
>
> So, The word "university" is derived from the Latin universitas
> magistrorum et scholarium, which roughly means "community of teachers
> and scholars." (Wikipedia) - but in fact, scholarship is now quite
> difficult to find the time and energy for, teaching is defined by the
> measurement methods (to the exclusion of all else) and community
> happens once a year at a conference.
> In fact, there are so many competing vested interests ("stakeholders")
> that the business (extremely big business) has become 'weaponised'
> In the midst of all this, the footsoldiers in the trenches have little
> influence on what universities should be doing, what academia is for.
> And when did we last hear the word "wisdom"?
>
> So - the only reasons I can think of to study at PhD level are
> personal
> ones: the knowledge (and possibly even a glimmer of wisdom) itself -
> the joy of discovering something new, the conviction that one didn't
> simply mark time through life.
> I would NOT advocate PhD level study as some passport to something
> else (as with any academic qualification, actually - only matters if
> you haven't got it, but doesn't guarantee anything whatsoever).
> In other words, it's perhaps handy to think of a PhD as essentially an
> amateur (as in 'for the love of..') thing. As such, the whole thing,
> from proposal to methodology to types of conclusion, should, first and
> foremost, please oneself. If others happen to like it, that's a bonus.
> Cheers
> ppl
>
> Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
> Senior Lecturer in Perception
> College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts
>
> e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> t: 01332 593155
>
> https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
>
> University of Derby,
> Kedleston Road,
> Derby,
> DE22 1GB, UK
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Phi
> Shu
> Sent: 18 August 2017 13:02
> To: Surround Sound discussion group
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
>
> true that International Art English
> <https://www.canopycanopycanopy.com/contents/international_art_english
> >
> (IAE) is problematic, at the same time there is an awful lot of
> sound/music/whatever based work that suffers from over dependence on
> spectacle and technical contrivance, a lot it is really banal, it has
> nothing to say about anything really (beyond: "isn't this a really
> interesting sound" - and often it's not).
>
> speaking as someone who jumped through the practice based PhD loop, I
> hated the writing, but a PhD without some form of
> intellectual/philosophical/conceptual narrative is simply not a PhD in
> my opinion, it shouldn't be awarded. A portfolio featuring a selection
> of random, disparate, creative works is not a PhD; equally one should
> not need a PhD to convince gatekeepers that one is qualified to
> produce interesting and engaging art; or that art bereft of anything
> interesting and engaging is somehow acceptable because the person who
> produced it has a PhD. Sure, what with the horrible funding climate
> and aggressive neoliberal politics we are dealing with, I can see why
> so many professional artists are now looking to retreat to academia,
> but is that a good reason to do a PhD? and down th
Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
Yes - academia generally is in a strange place. - I used to love it - I
remember being asked by someone I know why I worked for that kind of money (he
claimed more for transport against his tax bill than I grossed) - I said
"because I get paid to think" - he said fair enough, I get that.
But now, any thinking is strictly on my own time.
The problem is something like this: - the original reason for something coming
into existence is rarely identical to the reason for continuing to exist.
So, The word "university" is derived from the Latin universitas magistrorum et
scholarium, which roughly means "community of teachers and scholars."
(Wikipedia) - but in fact, scholarship is now quite difficult to find the time
and energy for, teaching is defined by the measurement methods (to the
exclusion of all else) and community happens once a year at a conference.
In fact, there are so many competing vested interests ("stakeholders") that the
business (extremely big business) has become 'weaponised'
In the midst of all this, the footsoldiers in the trenches have little
influence on what universities should be doing, what academia is for. And when
did we last hear the word "wisdom"?
So - the only reasons I can think of to study at PhD level are personal ones:
the knowledge (and possibly even a glimmer of wisdom) itself - the joy of
discovering something new, the conviction that one didn't simply mark time
through life.
I would NOT advocate PhD level study as some passport to something else (as
with any academic qualification, actually - only matters if you haven't got it,
but doesn't guarantee anything whatsoever).
In other words, it's perhaps handy to think of a PhD as essentially an amateur
(as in 'for the love of..') thing. As such, the whole thing, from proposal to
methodology to types of conclusion, should, first and foremost, please oneself.
If others happen to like it, that's a bonus.
Cheers
ppl
Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts, Humanities and Education
School of Arts
e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
t: 01332 593155
https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
University of Derby,
Kedleston Road,
Derby,
DE22 1GB, UK
-Original Message-
From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Phi Shu
Sent: 18 August 2017 13:02
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
true that International Art English
<https://www.canopycanopycanopy.com/contents/international_art_english>
(IAE) is problematic, at the same time there is an awful lot of
sound/music/whatever based work that suffers from over dependence on spectacle
and technical contrivance, a lot it is really banal, it has nothing to say
about anything really (beyond: "isn't this a really interesting sound" - and
often it's not).
speaking as someone who jumped through the practice based PhD loop, I hated the
writing, but a PhD without some form of intellectual/philosophical/conceptual
narrative is simply not a PhD in my opinion, it shouldn't be awarded. A
portfolio featuring a selection of random, disparate, creative works is not a
PhD; equally one should not need a PhD to convince gatekeepers that one is
qualified to produce interesting and engaging art; or that art bereft of
anything interesting and engaging is somehow acceptable because the person who
produced it has a PhD. Sure, what with the horrible funding climate and
aggressive neoliberal politics we are dealing with, I can see why so many
professional artists are now looking to retreat to academia, but is that a good
reason to do a PhD? and down the line where are all the teaching hours going to
come from? Then there's the practice led research versus research led practice
debate, which is more valid in the context of doing a PhD? Arguably the latter.
As for the creation of "immersive" experiences, do we need them? aren't we
already up to our necks in Baudillarian hyerpreality, Donal Trump is president
the USA ffs. A recent provocation
<http://sonicfield.org/2017/08/against-immersion/> sums this up.
Oh, also, Michael Edwards on "Why I am leaving UK academia
<https://www.timeshighereducation.com/blog/uk-academia-has-gone-hell-handcart-and-i-quit>"
should be required reading for anyone thinking of being an artist/composer
based in academia. Which reminds me, I was at an event a few years back, where
a well know UK academic composer - who was about to retire - gave a talk in
which he advised against doing a PhD if composition is something one wishes to
make a future out of it - because the working environment has become that
horrible.
If you want job security, become an administrator.
On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 11:07 AM, Peter Lennox wrote:
>
Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
That's interesting - often idly wondered how to do that (these academics, eh?) - I don't know if sufficient control is feasible, but you might be able to modulate the output of the airjets with discernible frequencies (prob. up to 2K, but could be higher)? Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox University of Derby, Kedleston Road, Derby, DE22 1GB, UK -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine Leudar Sent: 18 August 2017 11:03 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround) funny Peter - I am just working on interactive spatialisation tool that incorporates haptic feedback to manipulate sounds in 3D space as well, you use your hands to place and manipulate sounds in 3D space - but there are sensors that allow you to feel the sounds as well - using tiny air jets On 18 August 2017 at 10:57, Peter Lennox wrote: > I'm just publishing a paper - well, writing it - on multimodal spatial > music. (and "immersive" crops up a lot in subjects' comments) > > Also, see: Nanayakkara, S. C. Enhancing Musical Experience for the > Hearing-impaired using Visual and Haptic Feedback. > Department of Electrical & Computer Engineering, National University > of Singapore. PhD Thesis. 2006 > > The point being that, whilst multimodal techniques may produce useful > assistive technologies, we found that they can also be enjoyed by > those without hearing impairment. The trick is to rethink what the > constraints on composition actually are, if it's a new type of experience. > > Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA > Senior Lecturer in Perception > College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts > > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk > t: 01332 593155 > > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox > > University of Derby, > Kedleston Road, > Derby, > DE22 1GB, UK > > -Original Message- > From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of ?? > Sent: 18 August 2017 06:17 > To: Surround Sound discussion group > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround) > > Well, on compositional area, including audiovisual music composition, > it still quite hard to create sth like "immersive experiences" or > "multimodal perception". However, imaginary experiences may created > if appropriate sound sources and composing techniques has been referred. > > > > > -- Original -- > From: "Peter Lennox";; > Date: Fri, Aug 18, 2017 03:20 AM > To: "Surround Sound discussion group"; > > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround) > > > > ...and "extended mind", and "augmented perception", and "multimodal > perception", along with "superadditive effects" > > > Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA > > Senior Lecturer in Perception > > College of Arts, Humanities and Education > > School of Arts > > > > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk<mailto:p.len...@derby.ac.uk> > > t: 01332 593155 > > > > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox > > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox > > > > University of Derby, > Kedleston Road, > Derby, > DE22 1GB, UK > > > From: Sursound on behalf of Augustine > Leudar > Sent: 17 August 2017 20:17:37 > To: Surround Sound discussion group > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround) > > Dont forget "interactive" and "gesture based" Phi > > On 17 August 2017 at 19:06, Phi Shu wrote: > > > Just curious, why do you want to do a PhD at all? are you planning > > on being an academic? > > > > Also, you seem to be in a muddle with all the labels and text book > > definitions you are citing. The whole sound versus music thing (be > > it sonic arts, sound art, electroacoustic music, acousmatic music etc. > > etc.) forget all that nonsense, it's a trap. Follow that path and > > like it or not you will always be distracted by having to pander to > > either academic or 'art world' gatekeepers. All these silly little > > boxes people want to put things in are a distraction. Focus on what > > you want to say artistically, what you want to express, don't get > > wrapped up in trying to make it fit within a preexisting frame. > > > > Oh, and if you are ben
Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
See also "Creative Inhibition: how and why?" A problem is that we have gradually moved to an insidious position where "knowledge" has to be expressed in language to be taken seriously. So even if one is talking about warm fuzzy subjectivity, one has to be able to discuss in hard-edged objective terms. I don't know if anyone ever did a PhD on: The parameters of "Nice" - that would be a challenge to get past the research degrees committee! And this brings us to the kind of language that is commonly used in Art Galleries. Much of it looks like it has actually been written by those automatic bullshit generators (see: https://artybollocks.com/ , http://sebpearce.com/bullshit/ ; http://www.buzzwords4u.co.uk/ ; https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/archive/scigen/ ) Sorry - we just may have strayed from the surround path... Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox University of Derby, Kedleston Road, Derby, DE22 1GB, UK -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine Leudar Sent: 17 August 2017 21:53 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround) I think you misunderstand what I am saying but it's ok. Anyway you might want to look at Stanford. Some of their top academics described academia as a cancer for creativity : http://news.stanford.edu/news/2009/november2/art-academia-debate-110409.html I believe some PhDs now have almost no written content whatsoever their now. I think the whole concept of research having to be based on research questions is outdated - it makes sense for some fields but not really for art - in fact I think it hampers innovation. If art and music seeks to express something that can't be expressed verbally - how can you base such activity on verbal research questions with out turning art into something dead and pretentious and utterly limited by verbal thought processes. The solution in the arts seems to have been to make those verbal though processes ridiculously convoluted as possible . Have fun with that one anyway and good luck. On 17 August 2017 at 13:40, 霖の <951343...@qq.com> wrote: > Thank you very much :) And there are couple of things I'd like to say: > I agree with both of you and Thank you very much.. The proposal , I > don't know how specific should it be And one of the problem is > exactly what Augustine has mentioned, practice led to research. In > that case, the objects... is more like a train of thought rather than > just propose some problems for future research. I'm afraid that will > limit the creation as well. So.. how to write a decent proposal really > confuse me. > > > About the term, sound-based composition. It is academic.. at first > time, I used electroacoustics. However, as I hope to combine club > electronic music style with electroacoustic music, experiment music > and so on...The purpose is to have both aesthetic value and art value. > Sound is a quite potential sources and it is also the future of music, > that's why I'm not rejected to use this term...For composition, as > sound and electronic music is quite different from traditional music. > Composers , always are audio engineer as well. And when we study sound > composition, we also need to learn psychoacoustics so that we will > know what we are doing exactly. Besides, combine club electronic means > extract some approaches or ideas from it, and with principles, those > sound works will be more humanization and interesting rather than > serious all the time. There are many people have tried to find a more > humanization way to present those art works, combination is one of a choice. > > > About the visual cues, I've read some paper write by audiovisual artists. > To them, audio cues and visual cues are oneness rather than one > dominate another. What I referred here is human always percept the > world with all senses, even in dark room, they still keep using every > senses which is intuitive. If artists use those principles to create > sth special, that would be interesting and innovation. But indeed, > sound always provided informations that visual cues cannot present. > That's also a interesting point to be research. > > > > > > > -- Original -- > From: "Peter Lennox";; > Date: Thu, Aug 17, 2017 04:42 PM > To: "Surround Sound discussion group"; > > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround) > > > > The motion bounce illusion, where application of an audible transient &
Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
I'm just publishing a paper - well, writing it - on multimodal spatial music. (and "immersive" crops up a lot in subjects' comments) Also, see: Nanayakkara, S. C. Enhancing Musical Experience for the Hearing-impaired using Visual and Haptic Feedback. Department of Electrical & Computer Engineering, National University of Singapore. PhD Thesis. 2006 The point being that, whilst multimodal techniques may produce useful assistive technologies, we found that they can also be enjoyed by those without hearing impairment. The trick is to rethink what the constraints on composition actually are, if it's a new type of experience. Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox University of Derby, Kedleston Road, Derby, DE22 1GB, UK -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of ?? Sent: 18 August 2017 06:17 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround) Well, on compositional area, including audiovisual music composition, it still quite hard to create sth like "immersive experiences" or "multimodal perception". However, imaginary experiences may created if appropriate sound sources and composing techniques has been referred. ------ Original -- From: "Peter Lennox";; Date: Fri, Aug 18, 2017 03:20 AM To: "Surround Sound discussion group"; Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround) ...and "extended mind", and "augmented perception", and "multimodal perception", along with "superadditive effects" Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk<mailto:p.len...@derby.ac.uk> t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox University of Derby, Kedleston Road, Derby, DE22 1GB, UK From: Sursound on behalf of Augustine Leudar Sent: 17 August 2017 20:17:37 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround) Dont forget "interactive" and "gesture based" Phi On 17 August 2017 at 19:06, Phi Shu wrote: > Just curious, why do you want to do a PhD at all? are you planning on > being an academic? > > Also, you seem to be in a muddle with all the labels and text book > definitions you are citing. The whole sound versus music thing (be it > sonic arts, sound art, electroacoustic music, acousmatic music etc. > etc.) forget all that nonsense, it's a trap. Follow that path and like > it or not you will always be distracted by having to pander to either > academic or 'art world' gatekeepers. All these silly little boxes > people want to put things in are a distraction. Focus on what you want > to say artistically, what you want to express, don't get wrapped up in > trying to make it fit within a preexisting frame. > > Oh, and if you are bent on making a PhD proposal, stick "embodied" in > there somewhere, it's still trendingand "immersive experience" is > sexy now too, money being thrown at that > <http://www.ahrc.ac.uk/funding/opportunities/current/ > research-and-partnership-development-call-for-the-next- > generation-of-immersive-experiences/> > . > > On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 1:40 PM, 霖の <951343...@qq.com> wrote: > > > Thank you very much :) And there are couple of things I'd like to say: > > I agree with both of you and Thank you very much.. The proposal , I > > don't know how specific should it be And one of the problem is > > exactly what Augustine has mentioned, practice led to research. In > > that case, the objects... is more like a train of thought rather > > than just propose some problems for future research. I'm afraid that > > will limit the creation as well. So.. how to write a decent proposal really > > confuse me. > > > > > > About the term, sound-based composition. It is academic.. at first > > time, > I > > used electroacoustics. However, as I hope to combine club electronic > music > > style with electroacoustic music, experiment music and so on...The > purpose > > is to have both aesthetic value and art value. Sound is a quite > > potential sources and it is also the future of music, that's why I'm > > not rejected > to > > use this term...For composition, as sound and electronic music is > > quite different
Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
...and "extended mind", and "augmented perception", and "multimodal perception", along with "superadditive effects" Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk<mailto:p.len...@derby.ac.uk> t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox University of Derby, Kedleston Road, Derby, DE22 1GB, UK From: Sursound on behalf of Augustine Leudar Sent: 17 August 2017 20:17:37 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround) Dont forget "interactive" and "gesture based" Phi On 17 August 2017 at 19:06, Phi Shu wrote: > Just curious, why do you want to do a PhD at all? are you planning on being > an academic? > > Also, you seem to be in a muddle with all the labels and text book > definitions you are citing. The whole sound versus music thing (be it sonic > arts, sound art, electroacoustic music, acousmatic music etc. etc.) forget > all that nonsense, it's a trap. Follow that path and like it or not you > will always be distracted by having to pander to either academic or 'art > world' gatekeepers. All these silly little boxes people want to put things > in are a distraction. Focus on what you want to say artistically, what you > want to express, don't get wrapped up in trying to make it fit within a > preexisting frame. > > Oh, and if you are bent on making a PhD proposal, stick "embodied" in there > somewhere, it's still trendingand "immersive experience" is sexy now > too, money being thrown at that > <http://www.ahrc.ac.uk/funding/opportunities/current/ > research-and-partnership-development-call-for-the-next- > generation-of-immersive-experiences/> > . > > On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 1:40 PM, 霖の <951343...@qq.com> wrote: > > > Thank you very much :) And there are couple of things I'd like to say: > > I agree with both of you and Thank you very much.. The proposal , I don't > > know how specific should it be And one of the problem is exactly what > > Augustine has mentioned, practice led to research. In that case, the > > objects... is more like a train of thought rather than just propose some > > problems for future research. I'm afraid that will limit the creation as > > well. So.. how to write a decent proposal really confuse me. > > > > > > About the term, sound-based composition. It is academic.. at first time, > I > > used electroacoustics. However, as I hope to combine club electronic > music > > style with electroacoustic music, experiment music and so on...The > purpose > > is to have both aesthetic value and art value. Sound is a quite potential > > sources and it is also the future of music, that's why I'm not rejected > to > > use this term...For composition, as sound and electronic music is quite > > different from traditional music. Composers , always are audio engineer > as > > well. And when we study sound composition, we also need to learn > > psychoacoustics so that we will know what we are doing exactly. Besides, > > combine club electronic means extract some approaches or ideas from it, > and > > with principles, those sound works will be more humanization and > > interesting rather than serious all the time. There are many people have > > tried to find a more humanization way to present those art works, > > combination is one of a choice. > > > > > > About the visual cues, I've read some paper write by audiovisual artists. > > To them, audio cues and visual cues are oneness rather than one dominate > > another. What I referred here is human always percept the world with all > > senses, even in dark room, they still keep using every senses which is > > intuitive. If artists use those principles to create sth special, that > > would be interesting and innovation. But indeed, sound always provided > > informations that visual cues cannot present. That's also a interesting > > point to be research. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Original -- > > From: "Peter Lennox";; > > Date: Thu, Aug 17, 2017 04:42 PM > > To: "Surround Sound discussion group"; > > > > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround) > > > > > > > > The motion bounce illusion, where application of an audible transient > > alters the visual conclusion, from two circles passin
Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
The motion bounce illusion, where application of an audible transient alters the visual conclusion, from two circles passing through each other, to a perception of them 'bouncing' off each other, is a good example of audio altering visual perception. it would be simplistic to say that one sense 'dominates' the other, since the real point lies in the comparative robustness of cues -the sense with the best signal-to-noise ratio is likely to dominate in particular instances. Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk<mailto:p.len...@derby.ac.uk> t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox University of Derby, Kedleston Road, Derby, DE22 1GB, UK From: Sursound on behalf of Augustine Leudar Sent: 16 August 2017 22:14:46 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround) This is true too Dave - I know of one audio cue in particular (to do with a football bouncing off a wall) that can alter the way you see the way the ball moves - Ill have to dig it out. It really sucks being a sound artist sometimes ! oh so you're an audio guy What's a sound artist ? What like a sound engineer ? or a sound designer ? oooh a jumped up button pusher with delusions of grandeur On 16 August 2017 at 20:06, Dave Malham wrote: > I, too, agree with Augustine. A point though that I would make, on the side > so to speak, is, do not assume that visual cues always override audio ones. > It is quite common for visual arts people to assume that the visual > overrules everything else but, although not as common, audio perceptions > can override visual ones at times. Anyway, good luck with your phd. > > Dave > > > On 16 August 2017 at 15:29, Peter Lennox wrote: > > > Wot he said... > > > > Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA > > Senior Lecturer in Perception > > College of Arts, Humanities and Education > > School of Arts > > > > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk > > t: 01332 593155 > > > > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox > > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox > > > > University of Derby, > > Kedleston Road, > > Derby, > > DE22 1GB, UK > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of > > Augustine Leudar > > Sent: 16 August 2017 15:25 > > To: Surround Sound discussion group > > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround) > > > > As you probably know visual and other cognitive cues often override audio > > cues (see wallachs amazing cylinder experiment from 1940). I like to play > > with peoples minds in my installations and create illusions with sound - > > but these can be massively aided by the careful manipulation of cognitive > > and visual cues - for me for example the choice of location and how it > > looks is just as much a compositional decision as the choice of sounds, > > every sensory experience people have from the sight of a speaker, to the > > smell of the environment will have an associated meaning for listeners > and > > effect how they hear things, and how believable the world you are trying > to > > transport them to is.. > > Cognitive cues are massively influential on how we hear and experience > the > > world - from branding to deciding one person has something more important > > to say because you know their name, etc etc - you can completely override > > audio cues - or massively enhance them if you are clever in their use. > > However I would suggest practice led research for this kind of project - > I > > have heard so many things that sound very good on paper but dont actually > > work - to really add to the body of human knowledge I would say do it the > > other way round here - find out what works then write about it. > > There are loads of really interesting avenues of research in this topic - > > from intepoliation in HRTF data sets to various applications in VR. > > Although not sound based there is research for example in VR - you put a > > headset on and walk in a room - you think you are walking in a straight > > line but actually you are walking in a curve - the research is > determining > > how far visual cues can foll haptic ones, how much of a curve can you get > > away with There are many audio equivelants to this "curve". .I am > > also involved in sound sculpture but not perhaps in the way you mean - I > > make actual sculptures with sonics b
Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
Wot he said... Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox University of Derby, Kedleston Road, Derby, DE22 1GB, UK -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine Leudar Sent: 16 August 2017 15:25 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround) As you probably know visual and other cognitive cues often override audio cues (see wallachs amazing cylinder experiment from 1940). I like to play with peoples minds in my installations and create illusions with sound - but these can be massively aided by the careful manipulation of cognitive and visual cues - for me for example the choice of location and how it looks is just as much a compositional decision as the choice of sounds, every sensory experience people have from the sight of a speaker, to the smell of the environment will have an associated meaning for listeners and effect how they hear things, and how believable the world you are trying to transport them to is.. Cognitive cues are massively influential on how we hear and experience the world - from branding to deciding one person has something more important to say because you know their name, etc etc - you can completely override audio cues - or massively enhance them if you are clever in their use. However I would suggest practice led research for this kind of project - I have heard so many things that sound very good on paper but dont actually work - to really add to the body of human knowledge I would say do it the other way round here - find out what works then write about it. There are loads of really interesting avenues of research in this topic - from intepoliation in HRTF data sets to various applications in VR. Although not sound based there is research for example in VR - you put a headset on and walk in a room - you think you are walking in a straight line but actually you are walking in a curve - the research is determining how far visual cues can foll haptic ones, how much of a curve can you get away with There are many audio equivelants to this "curve". .I am also involved in sound sculpture but not perhaps in the way you mean - I make actual sculptures with sonics bult into them - I like technology to be hidden for the aforementioned cognitive reasons- I also do a lot of installations in natural environments that integrate psychoacoustic and cognitive research (such as the cocktail party effect and precedence etc) . I can send you some papers I wrote on using these cues in sound installation and theatre if you PM me. I also would be wary of terms like "sound based music" it sounds like pure academese - I understand the importance of academic writing style you have the potential to write an interesting research project and create a great portfolio which actually is clever and doesnt need to obscure its content with unnecessary esoteric language . My advice would be to follow your passion and not let yourself get led into something you're not really that interested in or that makes your supervisor feel safer - to finish you will need to be really engaged. On 16 August 2017 at 13:45, Peter Lennox wrote: > You probably have a supervisor, so I wouldn't want to interfere. > But it seems to me that your main aim is too broad, too vague. You > seem to be saying something like "the perception of music partly > relies on processes (neural, cognitive and psychological) that exist > for other than musical reasons - so how can this principle be applied > to enrich music and sound art?" > - but of course, composers have always done this. Take the principle > of "intuitive physics" (1993: 'Intuitive Physics', in Eilan, McCarthy > and Brewer, (eds.), Problems in the Philosophy and Psychology of > Spatial Representation; 99-112) - then compare "flight of the bumble > bee" with Prokoviev's "Dance of the Knights" (a track on Romeo and > Juliet) - you can hear that they rely on extra-musical associations > about size (mass) and therefore momentum, and the sorts of movement > (acceleration, change of > direction) that might be expected for beings of differing masses. > (Also have a listen to Tomita's electronic renditions of Debussey) > > > On the notion of sound sculpture, there are many artists interested in > this - for example, The Morning Line (https://www.youtube.com/ > watch?v=gipLCJr94Sg ) > > So, you have a very interesting topic area, and one in which much is > not known (an exciting area for research, then). But this stage, of > formulating a coherent proposal, is very hard work. Simpl
Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround)
You probably have a supervisor, so I wouldn't want to interfere. But it seems to me that your main aim is too broad, too vague. You seem to be saying something like "the perception of music partly relies on processes (neural, cognitive and psychological) that exist for other than musical reasons - so how can this principle be applied to enrich music and sound art?" - but of course, composers have always done this. Take the principle of "intuitive physics" (1993: 'Intuitive Physics', in Eilan, McCarthy and Brewer, (eds.), Problems in the Philosophy and Psychology of Spatial Representation; 99-112) - then compare "flight of the bumble bee" with Prokoviev's "Dance of the Knights" (a track on Romeo and Juliet) - you can hear that they rely on extra-musical associations about size (mass) and therefore momentum, and the sorts of movement (acceleration, change of direction) that might be expected for beings of differing masses. (Also have a listen to Tomita's electronic renditions of Debussey) On the notion of sound sculpture, there are many artists interested in this - for example, The Morning Line (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gipLCJr94Sg ) So, you have a very interesting topic area, and one in which much is not known (an exciting area for research, then). But this stage, of formulating a coherent proposal, is very hard work. Simplicity is the key - trying to be really clear (to yourself) what it is you want to know. That's a problem that all academics wrestle with, all their lives. Good luck! Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox University of Derby, Kedleston Road, Derby, DE22 1GB, UK -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of ?? Sent: 16 August 2017 12:33 To: sursound Subject: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition(surround) Thanks for reply. It is really helpful. The term I used , according to Landy's writing : typically designated the art form in which the sound is the basic unit. I'm thinking about it and developed main question and sub questions,here is a brief description : 1 The study purpose and sub-questions 1.1 Main Purpose For the perception mechanism of human being, every part of the outer world is affecting the final cognition. Thus, as sound-based music, the sources may naturally have extra-musical information. How to use that information appropriately to create artwork so that it could arouse people's association and extra-musical experiences? And, How to combine it with other art forms and effectively creates interesting perception experiences? 1.2 Perception For receiving and processing, sensory system will be used and worked together all the time. For artwork creation, including sound-based music composition, would it possible to break the typical perception habit or used it to create artwork according to perception principles? 1.3Cognition In this part, the research question focus on cognition process (understanding through thought, experience, and existing knowledge, etc.). In the light of above theory, if sound-based music or audiovisual artwork could follow the path of cognition process, will it creates fantastic artwork that brings abundant information even dramatic experiences? For example, using symbolic melody, lyrics or sound with special meaning, and composed them appropriately, it would be act like "access tools" (Leigh Landy, 2007: 27) and enhance the experiences to audiences and assist them understand the work more easily. Thus, people will focus on experience the feelings or interact with artworks rather than struggle with questions like what is going on here. 1.4 Development To develop the research ideas basis on psychoacoustics and cognitive psychology mentioned above, when combining the sound-based artwork with other forms of art, will innovations happen by this combination? 1.5 Sound sculpture As mention above, sound sculpture basis on sound-based music. Essentially, music is trying to transmit experiences to audiences, so how about creating sound sculpture? It is like the natural world presented to us: when we come into a place, we will hear and see the surroundings and then understand what has happened here, so as "sound sculpture" mentioned here. As I'm new to write proposal, what is the essential elements to form a research object and how specific should it be? I'm going to manipulate the principles and compose serious of artworks . Then extract the result to form a final dissertation. Thank you very much, Yilin -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursoun
Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition (surround)
Yes, I think many people think about this (as a quick bit of Googling will reveal). As a PhD topic - well, it's a subject area, but not really focussed enough to be a topic (and hence, not developed enough to form the basis of a proposal) One way forward would be to find psychoacousticians, auditory scientists and cognitive scientists who are also musicians; there are plenty. Names that spring to mind might be Stephen McAdams, Daniel Levitin, Albert Bregman, Ron Shepherd, Diana Deutsch and many more. Then take a look for journals that look at cognitive science and music - gradually, you'll start to see names cropping up repeatedly. Track down their publications pages, and dive in. In respect of spatial listening, again, many people have studied this - and of course, spatial listening for music might be quite different from listening to real environments (the former are rarely as potentially hazardous as the latter!). So, AES journals, JASA, ICAD would be good places to start. Look also for those 'out there' electroacoustic composers who are interested in psychoacoustics, philosophy of perception, neuroscience. All of the above could form the basis of the first 50% of the PhD, but actually are prerequisites for formulating a decent proposal. p.s. - I wasn't sure what "sound based music" might be? Dr. Peter Lennox SFHEA Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts, Humanities and Education School of Arts e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox University of Derby, Kedleston Road, Derby, DE22 1GB, UK -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine Leudar Sent: 16 August 2017 11:00 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Based Composition (surround) I do all the time. I think there's quite a few papers on the subject as well. On 16 August 2017 at 10:46, 霖の <951343...@qq.com> wrote: > Dear all: > Have u ever thought about using psychoacoustics and cognition > psychology principles to compose electronic music especially on sound based > music ? > For instance, when making surround sound, we need to consider how > people listen the sound in space. I'm thinking this might be a > potential phd proposal topic. > > > Looking forward your reply, > Thanks, > Yilin > > 发自我的iPad > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was > scrubbed... > URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/ > attachments/20170816/cbeab666/attachment.html> > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > -- Dr. Augustine Leudar Artistic Director Magik Door LTD Company Number : NI635217 Registered 63 Ballycoan rd, Belfast BT88LL -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20170816/aeec03bd/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please reply to the sender and let them know. Key University contacts: http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Going from 3rd order to 1st order.
Wot he said... Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound on behalf of Fons Adriaensen Sent: 07 February 2017 22:16:05 To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: Re: [Sursound] Going from 3rd order to 1st order. On Tue, Feb 07, 2017 at 07:54:42PM +, James Anthony Enda Bates wrote: > so it seems to be very common practice now to convert from 3rd order to > 1st order by simply using the first 4 channels of the 3rd order stream. > However, I have this very vague recollection of that not being quite right > and that there are some differences between the WXYZ channels in different > orders? But I cant seem to pinpoint the reference or source for that, so > perhaps my memory is just wrong? It is. First order signals are just a subset of any higher order. > Any one have any ideas on this? Could this be an issue with Furse-Malham, > rather than Ambi-X, or am I just completely wrong about that? That's an entirely separate issue. If you take for example the first four channels of third order Ambix set, you get an Ambix first order order signal. Then if you need FuMa first order you need to adjust the W gain. A different matter is e.g. using a higher order decoder with only a first order signal, or mixing a first order signal into a higher order one. Then for best results you need to modify the first order signals. This may be what you remember. Ciao, -- FA A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia. It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow) ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please reply to the sender and let them know. Key University contacts: http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20170207/e3259380/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Going from 3rd order to 1st order.
Enda - ask Bruce - I've had this same conversation with him. I have to admit, as a cheap and cheerful quick fix, I often simply use the 1st order components (for example, if I'm too lazy to put in multiple decoders, I use a 3rd order decoder, and simply pipe in the 1st order to the first 4 inputs.) and it works not too bad. But I'm aware that it's a bodge job, and certainly not appropriate for precision work cheers Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound on behalf of James Anthony Enda Bates Sent: 07 February 2017 19:54:42 To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: [Sursound] Going from 3rd order to 1st order. Hi everyone, so it seems to be very common practice now to convert from 3rd order to 1st order by simply using the first 4 channels of the 3rd order stream. However, I have this very vague recollection of that not being quite right and that there are some differences between the WXYZ channels in different orders? But I cant seem to pinpoint the reference or source for that, so perhaps my memory is just wrong? Any one have any ideas on this? Could this be an issue with Furse-Malham, rather than Ambi-X, or am I just completely wrong about that? It's quite a relevant question as you often need to prepare both 1st and 3rd order mixes these days for 360 videos. Thanks all, enda -- Dr. Enda Bates Teaching / Research Fellow Music & Media Technologies / School of Engineering Stack B, IFSC, Dublin 1, Ireland. +353 1 896 1434 bate...@tcd.ie www.endabates.net<http://www.endabates.net> <http://www.endabates.net>www.tcd.ie -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20170207/8433414e/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please reply to the sender and let them know. Key University contacts: http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20170207/bdf113a0/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Sound Art gallery South London
Also, before the project, the land was a perfectly useful car park - so they sort of devalued it. As Dave said it could have been really interesting, but ended up being an exercise in spending funding. In Yorkshire and Lancashire there's a saying: "all fur coat and no knickers" - no pervy connotations, just that it's all show and no underlying substance. Ah well... Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound on behalf of Dave Malham Sent: 16 December 2016 08:40:43 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Art gallery South London Add to that a space for performance with no dressing rooms, an Ambisonic rig where the architect didn't like the position of the lower speakers and had them raised up to almost ear height without first talking to any of the sound guys, an exhibition space that was dressed by a company who specialised in..stage setsyou know, the ones where you don't have to worry about what things look like when people are close upArgh, so many bad memories have been drug up by this thread :-(It could have been brilliant as the original concept was excellent but, ah well. Dave PS for those of you off-shore, Peter's comment about the "National Car Park for Popular Music" refers to the fact the UK's largest chain of private car parks is called National Car Parks or NCP. Unfortunately, somebody (no names, no pack drill) spotted the close resemblance to NCPM and once the words were said, they stuck. On 15 December 2016 at 21:28, Peter Lennox wrote: > yep, that was it - Paul Gillieron. They acquired the Huron to furnish the > National Car Park for Popular Music with a pre-decoded set of speaker > feeds, so that any idiot could press "play". At the time, I couldn't > understand why anyone would build a facility costing millions, then assume > it would have no resident sound engineer capable of actually operating > therein. Years later, I just sort of understand that that is what people > do. Nevertheless, it still seems bonkers to me that anyone would assume > that you can compose/produce in one space, and expect it to fit another. > > Having said that, the NCPM had the most improbable acoustics (circular, > dome ceiling, plenty of glass and stainless steel, no soft furnishings - no > door, plenty of spill from various other areas containing plenty of > speakers)... > > The place was clearly specified and designed by deaf persons. > > I'm sure with some time and ingenuity I could come up with a worse > acoustic - but it would be a lot of work, and why bother? > > > There are plenty of people who don't understand spatial sound, even though > they live in it every day. Fair enough. But the fact that they don't even > know that there actually is something they don't understand - inexcusable. > See: Dunning Kruger effect. > > > Dr. Peter Lennox > Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy > Senior Lecturer in Perception > College of Arts > University of Derby > > Tel: 01332 593155 > > From: Sursound on behalf of Paul Hodges < > pwh-surro...@cassland.org> > Sent: 15 December 2016 17:39:56 > To: Surround Sound discussion group > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Art gallery South London > > --On 15 December 2016 17:01 + Dave Malham > wrote: > > > Although I visited the Brixton studio > > and can even picture the inside of it, I'm damned if I can remember > > the name of either the studio or the people concerned > > Here's their brochure: > <http://www.surroundav.org/surround.AV.brochureMay2004.pdf> > > Paul > > -- > Paul Hodges > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > > The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and > reserves the right to monitor email traffic. > If you believe this was sent to you in error, please reply to the sender > and let them know. > > Key University contacts: http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/ > attachments/20161215/fec8bdde/attachment.html> > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > edit account or options, view
Re: [Sursound] Sound Art gallery South London
Quite - we all don't know far more than we do know - but apparently, it takes some extended kind of thinking to understand that, and many have neither the time, nor the inclination (nor perhaps the ability) to pusue that: "..I am wiser than this man, for neither of us appears to know anything great and good; but he fancies he knows something, although he knows nothing; whereas I, as I do not know anything, so I do not fancy I do. In this trifling particular, then, I appear to be wiser than he, because I do not fancy I know what I do not know." - from Plato's "Apology" Not a popular line of thought, I fancy Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound on behalf of Augustine Leudar Sent: 15 December 2016 21:50:38 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Art gallery South London Fascinating stuff : "The phenomenon was first observed in a series of experiments by David Dunning <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Dunning> and Justin Kruger <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Justin_Kruger&action=edit&redlink=1> of the department of psychology at Cornell University <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornell_University> in 1999.[1] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#cite_note-Kruger-1> [2] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect#cite_note-psymq-2> The study was inspired by the case of McArthur Wheeler, a man who robbed two banks after covering his face with lemon <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon> juice in the mistaken belief that, because lemon juice is usable as invisible ink <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_ink>, it would prevent his face from being recorded on surveillance cameras <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed-circuit_television>" On 15 December 2016 at 21:28, Peter Lennox wrote: > yep, that was it - Paul Gillieron. They acquired the Huron to furnish the > National Car Park for Popular Music with a pre-decoded set of speaker > feeds, so that any idiot could press "play". At the time, I couldn't > understand why anyone would build a facility costing millions, then assume > it would have no resident sound engineer capable of actually operating > therein. Years later, I just sort of understand that that is what people > do. Nevertheless, it still seems bonkers to me that anyone would assume > that you can compose/produce in one space, and expect it to fit another. > > Having said that, the NCPM had the most improbable acoustics (circular, > dome ceiling, plenty of glass and stainless steel, no soft furnishings - no > door, plenty of spill from various other areas containing plenty of > speakers)... > > The place was clearly specified and designed by deaf persons. > > I'm sure with some time and ingenuity I could come up with a worse > acoustic - but it would be a lot of work, and why bother? > > > There are plenty of people who don't understand spatial sound, even though > they live in it every day. Fair enough. But the fact that they don't even > know that there actually is something they don't understand - inexcusable. > See: Dunning Kruger effect. > > > Dr. Peter Lennox > Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy > Senior Lecturer in Perception > College of Arts > University of Derby > > Tel: 01332 593155 > > From: Sursound on behalf of Paul Hodges < > pwh-surro...@cassland.org> > Sent: 15 December 2016 17:39:56 > To: Surround Sound discussion group > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Art gallery South London > > --On 15 December 2016 17:01 + Dave Malham > wrote: > > > Although I visited the Brixton studio > > and can even picture the inside of it, I'm damned if I can remember > > the name of either the studio or the people concerned > > Here's their brochure: > <http://www.surroundav.org/surround.AV.brochureMay2004.pdf> > > Paul > > -- > Paul Hodges > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > > The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and > reserves the right to monitor email traffic. > If you believe this was sent to you in error, please reply to the sender > and let them know. > > Key University contacts: http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: <
Re: [Sursound] Sound Art gallery South London
yep, that was it - Paul Gillieron. They acquired the Huron to furnish the National Car Park for Popular Music with a pre-decoded set of speaker feeds, so that any idiot could press "play". At the time, I couldn't understand why anyone would build a facility costing millions, then assume it would have no resident sound engineer capable of actually operating therein. Years later, I just sort of understand that that is what people do. Nevertheless, it still seems bonkers to me that anyone would assume that you can compose/produce in one space, and expect it to fit another. Having said that, the NCPM had the most improbable acoustics (circular, dome ceiling, plenty of glass and stainless steel, no soft furnishings - no door, plenty of spill from various other areas containing plenty of speakers)... The place was clearly specified and designed by deaf persons. I'm sure with some time and ingenuity I could come up with a worse acoustic - but it would be a lot of work, and why bother? There are plenty of people who don't understand spatial sound, even though they live in it every day. Fair enough. But the fact that they don't even know that there actually is something they don't understand - inexcusable. See: Dunning Kruger effect. Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound on behalf of Paul Hodges Sent: 15 December 2016 17:39:56 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Art gallery South London --On 15 December 2016 17:01 + Dave Malham wrote: > Although I visited the Brixton studio > and can even picture the inside of it, I'm damned if I can remember > the name of either the studio or the people concerned Here's their brochure: <http://www.surroundav.org/surround.AV.brochureMay2004.pdf> Paul -- Paul Hodges ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please reply to the sender and let them know. Key University contacts: http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20161215/fec8bdde/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Sound Art gallery South London
I've a feeling someone in or near Brixton had ambisonics, running on a Lake Huron, maybe 20 years ago...? Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Karl Sadler Sent: 15 December 2016 14:24 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sound Art gallery South London I'd be interested to know about this too. We have an ambisonic octagon space on Brixton hill in south london. We don't have a gallery though but the studio has been here twenty years so it may have done something like that previously. Karl On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 at 21:47, Emanuele Costantini wrote: > Hello everyone, > I am trying to track a South London Sound art gallery, I think it was > in New Cross or Brockley, which had also an ambisonics system installed. > I cannot find it anymore in my bookmarks and I would like to know if > anyone knows what I am talking about? Is it still active? > Thanks. > Emanuele > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20161215/2b8022f9/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please reply to the sender and let them know. Key University contacts: http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] [allowed] Speaker numbering
maybe, with the help of a compass, we could standardise on cardinal points of the compass (but do we use true north or magnetic north?) Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound on behalf of Augustine Leudar Sent: 19 November 2016 09:03:27 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] [allowed] Speaker numbering In theory it wouldnt be impossible to settle upon a standard regardless of what speaker configuration or technique was used during composition. At the end of the day the technician at the venue is not going to rewire the speaker array for each composition that decided it was going to use this that or the other numbering system. Its simply a matter of the technician saying "I use this numbering system" and you labeling your .wav / .aif files accordingly. So if you render 8 files - if your original speaker 5 is the technicians speaker 1 you number accordingly. I dont see there should be a problem in settling on a standard speaker array numbering sytem and it may make everyone's life simpler in the long run. Except for awkward bastards like myself using irregular speaker arrays of course - but who cares about them anyway. On 19 November 2016 at 08:55, Dave Malham wrote: > I don't think I would entirely agree that loudspeaker orchestras were all > "originally intended for diffusing stereo works". Mostly, yes indeed they > were, but particularly in the earlier days (1950's or before) the sources > were mostly mono (Pierre Schaeffer) or crudely linked (like the multiple > optical recorders used for Disney's Fantasia) multichannel. I think there > is something in the "stereo" thing but it's simpler than appearance of > loudspeaker orchestra diffusion or potentiometre d'espace based > systems (Jacques > Poullin) or whatever, it's just that by the 1960's stereo amplifiers were > widely available and many of us used bunches of them rather than double > the number of mono units (one Quad 303 in place of two Quad II valve amps, > in my case at York). This leads almost automatically to going left-right, > left-right, left-right, left-right from front to back. > > Dave > > > On 18 November 2016 at 16:24, Phi Shu wrote: > > > and that's probably why there is no "standard," all the well known large > > arrays use proprietary systems. > > > > In contrast, so called loudspeaker orchestras - originally intended for > > diffusing stereo works - tend to apply the rationale of having multiple > > stereo pairs - mapped directly to individual faders - and I would guess > > it's for this reason that the numbering is as such in the second numbered > > sequence you posted; because an acousmatic composer who composes an > > octophonc work for that set-up can more easily present it, or even > diffuse > > it, in a setting that uses multiple speaker pairs. > > > > On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 3:54 AM, Augustine Leudar < > > augustineleu...@gmail.com > > > wrote: > > > > > Not really Gerard - there's plenty of techniques on spatial audio that > > dont > > > use decoders and have nothing to do with ambisonics. > > > > > > On 18 November 2016 at 00:46, Gerard Lardner wrote: > > > > > > > Surely it must depend on the convention used in your decoder > software. > > > For > > > > example, Harpex-B uses > > > > > > > > 1 8 > > > > 2 7 > > > > 3 6 > > > > 4 5 > > > > > > > > for an 8-speaker horizontal ring, or > > > > > > > > 1 6 > > > > 2 5 > > > > 3 4 > > > > > > > > for a 6-speaker ring, but VVMic uses > > > > > > > > 1 2 > > > > 3 4 > > > > 5 6 > > > > > > > > Gerard Lardner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 16/11/2016 22:12, Augustine Leudar wrote: > > > > > > > >> How do you number you arrays - there seems to be two ways I've come > > > >> across.. Using the example of an octophonic array > > > >> The first way seems to be circular : > > > >> > > > >>1 2 > > > >> 83 > > > >> 74 > > > >> 6 5 > > > >> > > > >> The other way is as follows : > > > >
Re: [Sursound] Speaker numbering
I once spent two days trying to understand the mapping of a 32 (periphonic) speaker rig, as there were 3 different speaker numbering 'conventions' in use, by 3 different parties: one used counterclockwise numbering of 'slices' - middle, top, bottom, another used a similar system but clockwise, and another used weird kind of helical 'start at the top, downwards in stripes', kind of system. Each party thought their system was logical and obvious, so it didn't need documenting. Trying to understand what was actually wired to what was a comical nightmare. Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Dave Malham Sent: 17 November 2016 11:10 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Speaker numbering Your second layout is what I always tended to do when I had control of the numbering but when working in a venue other than your own you often don't. Personally, I'm not sure about "standards" for something as variable as a multispeaker array since I would ALWAYS want to check that they really, really were connected to the standard - I have been caught out too many times over the years :-( Dave PS Actually, I would usually check my own rig, just in case someone had played silly buggers with the leads since last time I used it. Like I said, been caught out too many times On 16 November 2016 at 22:12, Augustine Leudar wrote: > How do you number you arrays - there seems to be two ways I've come > across.. Using the example of an octophonic array The first way seems > to be circular : > > 1 2 > 83 > 74 >6 5 > > The other way is as follows : > >1 2 > 3 4 > 5 6 >7 8 > > There doesnt seem to be an standard way of doing this - I was curious > as to how other sursounders number their speakers ? > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was > scrubbed... > URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/ > attachments/20161116/493aaff8/attachment.html> > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > -- As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University. These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University Dave Malham Honorary Fellow, Department of Music The University of York York YO10 5DD UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20161117/5bf90225/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please reply to the sender and let them know. Key University contacts: http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Spatial audio concert and workshops
That sounds a good gig - wish I could make it Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine Leudar Sent: 10 November 2016 12:39 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: [Sursound] Spatial audio concert and workshops If anyone's around Dublin on the 27th we have a spatial audio concert in the Freemasons hall and two workshops taking place : https://www.eventbrite.ie/e/spaces-and-places-tickets-28912967464 *The **Spatial Music Collective* <http://www.spatialmusiccollective.com/>* and the **Association of Irish Composers* <http://composers.ie/>*Spaces & Places*a day of spatial music workshops and concerts Freemasons’ Hall, Molesworth Street, Dublin Sunday November 27th 2016 workshop one: 2.30-4.30pm workshop two: 4.30-6.30pm concert: 7.30pm The Spatial Music Collective and Association of Irish Composers are pleased to announce a full day exploring spatial music, with two free workshops and a concert of new works by SMC and AIC member composers. Concert: The Spatial MC and AIC presents *Spaces & Places* The concert will feature a selection of new works by members of the Spatial Music Collective including two very special live performances by Jenn Kirby, and Iride Project (Massimo Daví & Monica Miuccio). Also featured on the programme are new soundscape compositions by Enda Bates and Augustine Leudar based on field recordings from North and South America, an image-processing inspired electronic piece by Eric Lyon, and new works by Rachel Ní Chuinn, Brian Bridges, Neil O'Connor, and Thomas McConville. Tickets for the 8pm concert cost €12 (€10 students, €6 workshop participants) and are available from www.aicconcerts.eventbrite.com To apply for a place on either masterclass, email spatia...@gmail.com with “Spatial Audio Workshop” as the subject line before 5pm, 20 November, 2016. Please include a brief outline of your current level of experience with spatial audio in the email, along with your name, and contact details, and which workshop you would like to attend. You may attend both workshops if you wish, and workshop participants can also attend the concert at a discounted rate. Workshop 1: Immersive and interactive 3D audio for Theatre, Film and Sonic art with Augustine Leudar This workshop will give a practical introduction to immersive 3D audio. Participants will learn 3D audio techniques which can be used to create live 3d sound for events, theatre and performance as well as pre-recorded material for installations and film. The workshop will include instruction on the use of lesser known but effective spatial audio techniques such as DBAP, including specific techniques for constructing convincing spatial audio illusions using non-peripheral speaker arrays. It will also feature a collective field recording session in which the group will practice a technique for mapping 3D sonic environments which we will then edit in a DAW and listen to in the workshop. Workshop 2: Spatial Audio for VR and 360 Video with Enda Bates This workshop will provide an introduction to recording, producing and releasing spatial audio to accompany VR and 360 videos. Topics will include Ambisonics, spatial recording techniques using portable recorders, sound design for VR, and how to publish 360 audio and video online. The workshop will demonstrate how to use cheap portable recorders such as the Zoom H2n to record spatial audio, how to edit and produce spatial content using Ambisonics and the DAW Reaper, and some tricks for publishing 360 content online on YouTube and Facebook. Spaces and Places is part of the Association of Irish Composers’ Other Directions series, celebrating and exploring the expansive range of approaches to composition by musicians in Ireland, including electronic music, children’s concerts, improvisation and installations. Other Directions is supported by Arts Council Ireland, and the AIC is supported by IMRO. -- Augustine Leudar Artistic Director Magik Door LTD Company Number : NI635217 Registered 63 Ballycoan rd, Belfast BT88LL -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20161110/dac4f647/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please reply to the sender and let them know. Key Uni
Re: [Sursound] Sursound Digest, Vol 96, Issue 3
Because I got this in digest form, I can't find the original discussion (the search facility in our email is a bit inconsistent) - I'd be interested to read it Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound on behalf of Richard Lee Sent: 05 July 2016 07:32:19 To: 'Surround Sound discussion group' Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sursound Digest, Vol 96, Issue 3 Can you give us more detail about these tests and perhaps put some of these natural recordings on ambisonia.com? The type of soundfield microphone used .. and particularly the accuracy of its calibration ... makes a HUGE difference to the 'naturalness' of a soundfield recording. Some good examples of 'natural' soundfield recordings with loadsa stuff happening from all round are Paul Doombusch's Hampi, JH Roy's schoolyard & John Leonard's Aran music. Musical examples include John Leonards Orfeo Trio, Paul Hodges "It was a lover and his lass" and Aaron Heller's (AJH) "Pulcinella". The latter has individual soloists popping up in the soundfield .. not pasted on, but in a very natural and delicious fashion ... as Stravinsky intended. > Also to my experience, and that doesn?t seem to be a very popular view yet in ambisonic community, these parametric methods do not only upsample or sharpen the image compared to direct first-order decoding, but they actually reproduce the natural recording in a way that is closer perceptually to how the original sounded, both spatially and in timbre. > Or at least that?s what our listening tests have shown in a number of cases and recordings. And the directional sharpening is one effect, but also the higher spatial decorrelation that they achieve (or lower inter-aural coherence) in reverberant recordings is equally important. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please reply to the sender and let them know. Key University contacts: http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20160705/bc9d5f22/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Using Ambisonic for a live streaming VR project
Stephan, hi
The main mechanisms for disambiguating 'cones of confusion' (and this includes
front-back reversals) are: pinnae effects (Batteau) and head-movements
(Wallach) - so, without either of these mechanisms at play, one would expect
directional ambiguity.
In respect of elevation cues - well, I've heard many, very expert listeners,
swear that in some stereo recordings, listened to over speakers, they can hear
'height'. This could simply be a speaker artefact at Hf, but it could also be
that elevation actually means 'up' - elevated sources have different
relationships with items in the environment and ground effect (I loosely call
this phenomenon ambience labelling) - so some elevation cues might not simply
be pinnae effects.
Cheers
ppl
Dr. Peter Lennox
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts
University of Derby, UK
e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
t: 01332 593155
https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
-Original Message-
From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Stefan
Schreiber
Sent: 13 June 2016 02:03
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Using Ambisonic for a live streaming VR project
Hi Archontis,
sorry for the relatively late response. I was travelling and had some problems
to post anything on sursound during my trip. (I finally know what went wrong...)
Anyway, many thanks for the (as always) clear and well-informed answer you gave
to my posting.
It is quite remarkable that some "pinnae-less" (but multi-perspective) binaural
format seems to work well for HT VR applications. This is just another proof
that some perceptual cues can be omitted (here: pinnae
cues) if other cues (ILD, ITD) are more or less intact.
However, there seem to be a couple of limitations of the (propietary) MTB
recording format.
- I would expect some problems to distinguish between front and back.
(Head movements will fix these, but what if you want to keep your head in some
"listening position"?)
- I would not expect that any or at least some significant height cues are
captured. (?)
More important:
- It seems to be very difficult if not impossible to bring MTB recordings into
some loudspeaker format. (Even to classical Stereo...) "Application case":
Imagine you would like to present some VR/360º movie in some ("plain old")
cinema version, or just to broadcast it on TV. You would need some 2.0 or 5.1
(or Auro-3D/Dolby Atmos etc.) audio version to do so. How to derive this from
any binaural recording, in some rational way?
(Unless they would interpret the 8-mic= RondoMic sphere recording as some HOA
source. Which brings us back to my 1st mail...)
Last, but not least:
Good MTB recordings require many capsules assembled in an SA mirophone, in my
eyes not any less than for HOA.
Sources:
http://dysonics.com/rondo360/
http://dysonics.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/dysonics_immersive_spatial_sound_for_mobile.pdf
"In practice, we find that this
procedure produces high-quality results using 8 microphones for speech and < 16
microphones for music >."
"Although MTB produces highly-realistic, well externalized spatial sound, the
signals produced by this method only approximate the exact experience, and
critical listening tests have revealed various audible defects [7]. We have
developed methods to correct for these problem, if corrections are required,
and refer the interested reader to [7] for an extended discussion of this
topic."
Chapter 4.1:
"For the numerical values a = 0.0875 m, c = 343 m/s and fmax = 2.5 kHz, these
formulas call for 55 microphones for omnidirectional and 16 microphones for
panoramic sampling."
55 microphones is quite a lot, especially if you are restricted to binaural
applications.
<>Best regards
Stefan
---
Politis Archontis wrote:
>Hi Stefan,
>
>
>On 07 Jun 2016, at 04:35, Stefan Schreiber
>mailto:st...@mail.telepac.pt>> wrote:
>
>Politis Archontis wrote:
>
>But instead of combining all microphones to generate the binaural
>directivities (as in ambisonics), it interpolates only between the two
>adjacent microphones that should be closest to the listener's ears. Otherwise,
>it does not capture pinna cues or cues from a non-spherical/assymetrical head.
>Any source for this explanation?
>
>I actually dare to question your view... How will you receive any binaural
>cues via interpolation between two relatively closely spaced omni mikes (fixed
>on a sphere)?
>
>As you even write, this doesn't seem to give any head and pinna cues.
>(It's called MTB. So I guess they would aim to provide several binaural
>perspectives, including head and pinna cues?)
>
>The source is the AES paper describing the method:
>
>Algazi, R. V., D
Re: [Sursound] Using Ambisonic for a live streaming VR project
That reminds me - what's the highest order ambisonic-to-binaural encoding achieved so far, in combination with head-tracking (and with what latency)? - anyone know? Cheers ppl Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Dave Hunt Sent: 05 June 2016 18:14 To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: Re: [Sursound] Using Ambisonic for a live streaming VR project Hi, It is hardly surprising that "I hear directional information and head tracking effects, but have never experienced the externalization and verisimilitude that direct dummy head or Algazi and Duda's motion- tracked binaural recordings can produce." Even software direct binaural encoding seems more 'accurate' than B- Format ambisonics recoded to binaural. Then Algazi and Duda's system uses binaural recordings, and they know what they're doing. Decorrelation, and software reverb, can help with a sense of externalisation, though you can go too far. Ciao, Dave Hunt > From: Aaron Heller > Date: 4 June 2016 20:53:09 BDT > To: Surround Sound discussion group > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Using Ambisonic for a live streaming VR > project > > > My experience with FOA-to-binaural rendering is pretty much the same > as > what Acrhontis says. I hear directional information and head > tracking > effects, but have never experienced the externalization and > verisimilitude that direct dummy head or Algazi and Duda.'s > motion-tracked binaural recordings can produce. > > Aaron (hel...@ai.sri.com) > Menlo Park, CA > > On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 2:31 AM, Politis Archontis < > archontis.poli...@aalto.fi> wrote: > >> Hi Jörn, >> >> On 03 Jun 2016, at 15:27, Jörn Nettingsmeier >> mailto:netti...@stackingdwarves.net>> >> wrote: >> >> Note however that while the quality of first-order to binaural is >> quite good because the listener is by definition always in the sweet >> spot, first-order over speakers can be difficult for multiple >> listeners when they're far outside the center. >> >> >> This is by no means meant to provoke, but I have never managed to >> hear a convincing B-format to binaural rendering, or to produce one >> myself. Could you possibly share some info on the decoding approach >> that you used that results in a good example? >> >> In my experience, no matter how much tweaking in the decoding, there >> is severe localization blur, due to the large inherent spreading of >> directional sounds, and low envelopment due to the wrong (high) >> coherence in the binaural signals with reverberant sound, compared to >> the actual binaural coherence. And there is also serious colouration, >> with a loss of high-frequencies, that seems direction-dependent. The >> fact that everything is on the ideal sweet spot under free-field >> conditions doesn't seem to improve much, it actually seems to do more >> harm (I believe that a small amount of natural added decorrelation >> from a room and tiny misalignments from speakers etc. seem to improve >> binaural coherence and the perceptual quality somewhat of loudspeaker >> B-format reproduction). >> >> Listening to a binaural rendering from a real B-format recording is >> not so bad, there is no reference for comparison, but for VR the >> difference I've heard between using directly HRTFs and B-format >> rendering is huge. >> And as >> many of these applications rely on sharp directional rendering with >> accurate localization of multiple sound events, traditional B-format >> decoding seems unsuitable to me. The performance improves somewhat >> with 2nd-order rendering, and significantly with 3rd and 4th-order >> rendering. >> Also it improves dramatically using plain B-format with a well- >> implemented parametric active decoder, such as HARPEX or DirAC. >> So my guidelines for VR till now have been, >> a) if bandwidth is not an issue go for HOA rendering (at least 3rd- >> order), >> b) if it is an issue, like the streaming application of the OP, >> stream B-format and use an active decoder at the client side. >> >> But I'd like to hear many opinions on this too, and any counter >> examples! >> >> Regards, >> Archontis Politis -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20160605/88681cda/attachmen
Re: [Sursound] Envelopment
Hi Ralph! - long time since I saw you on this site - nice to hear from you. Just a suggestion: it seems to me that what you are doing is affecting inter aural cross-correlation (IACC) - and, as this is known to affect the perception of 'spaciousness' - and spaciousness is related to 'envelopment'. I wonder: have you come across the paper "Fixing the Phantom Center" by Earl Vickers? - he describes a method of using all-pass filters to control IACC, that can make imagery slightly less 'pinpoint-y' (and what exactly is a point source anyhow?) but more stable for off-centre listeners. Although this is a technique used for stereo, I've a hunch it actually does something related to what you're doing. Effectively, I think you are decorrelating the rear stereo feeds, and thus preventing image-perception to the rear, and bringing out the ambience information. I've accidentally done this with some crosstalk filters (set up wrongly) - the centre imagery was depressed but there was an enormous and compelling increase in the perception of depth of field (perhaps related to Neher, Brooks and Rumsey's ensemble depth). Now, you say you're using slightly different settings for your rear cross-talk pair - I wonder if you're doing something similar? cheers Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound on behalf of Ralph Glasgal Sent: 25 April 2016 22:58:10 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: [Sursound] Envelopment The last paragraph is the meat, if this is too long. I have belatedly gotten around to reading the AES paper by Sunish George, Francis Rumsey et al entitled "Development and Validation of an Unintrusive Model for Predicting the Sensation of Envelopment Arising from Surround Sound Recordings" Dec 2010. This paper defines what envelopment sounds like quite well, But to paraphrase the US Supreme Court on pornography, I know envelopment when I hear it. For me it is a sense of "You Are There" concert hall realism. For some time now, I have been using Ambiophonics and the RACE program to generate a sense of envelopment by using two speakers behind the listening position at an angle of about 20 degrees and only two meters or so away from the main listening family size area.. This rear speaker pair is fed a duplicate of the front pair and is just crosstalk cancelled using somewhat different parameters than used for the front 2.0 pair. Neither the level nor the delay of the rear pair is critical within reason which is a rather remarkable result. I have had hundreds of listeners here and elsewhere in the world confirm the effect. I call it Envelophonics and there is a tutorial on the details on the Ambiophonics website. I wish I had the resources to get a 50 man listening panel and produce an AES paper but perhaps NYU will produce a thesis on Envelophonics like the one Roginska et al did on frontal Ambiophonics. (Link on the Ambiophonics.org home page) Basically when you turn on the rear crosstalk cancelled speakers, you have an enhanced spatial sense of being there at the recording site. The stage gets wider and it is easier to localize instruments and sense depth. The home listening area also gets larger and, if way off the center line or walking about the room, you still get a feeling of space and can hear both channels clearly. In brief what most auditors hear and describe matches what the referenced paper and other earlier sources describe as envelopment. There is no sense of ASW (Apparent Spource Width) changing so that factor is not an issue. Now if you turn off RACE, so you just have a rear stereo pair behind you, this envelopment effect collapses entirely. I had originally used the rear speakers for surround sound purposes so as to achieve a full circle of direct sound in the horizontal plane from just ordinary 4.0 media. They were also used to correct a 2.0 pinna localization cue distortion.. So I was pleased that the rear speakers were additionally valuable when auditioning 2.0 media. Note that head tracking has never been required for Ambiophonics and is similarly not needed when Envelophonics is added. You can move your head all you wish, lean, nod, stand, move forward or back, rotate the head, etc. with little affect. Why is crosstalk cancellation fort the rear pair essential to producing this kind of envelopment? Subject to a PHD project someday by someone, I believe the effect is easy to explain. In normal hearing the pattern of very very early reflections from the half circle of seats or heads behind you changes in directional cues with the location of a sound source in front of you. But if you are listening to a 60 degree stereo loudspeaker triangle in a listening
Re: [Sursound] OT Stereo stage width - Was: Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible?
Nice collected resource! I'd add Gunther Theile's thesis " on the localisation in the superimposed sound field: http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://hauptmikrofon.de/theile/1980-2_Diss._Theile_englisch.pdf&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwj_nK39lunLAhVMORoKHdT9AEcQFggeMAI&usg=AFQjCNH6nNtd5_yKnXJRQLeBwHJ8M3kEVw In which Gunther describes several ways in which the phantom image and the real source are not physically equivalent cheers ppl Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Eero Aro [eero@dlc.fi] Sent: 30 March 2016 20:09 To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: Re: [Sursound] OT Stereo stage width - Was: Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible? Thank you Eric. That sums it great up, and you give the sources of the researches. Finally some facts to the table. Some of those papers are in the Motherlode, but by which names? Eero 30.3.2016, 21:44, Eric Benjamin kirjoitti: > There are several classic papers on 2-channel stereo reproduction. > I'll give them here: [1] Blumlein, A. D., British Patent 394 325 > (application 1931 Dec. 14; granted 1933 June 14). [2] Clark, H., > Dutton, G., and Vanderlyn, P., "The 'Stereosonic' Recording and > Reproducing System", IRE Trans. Audio, vol. AU-5, pp. 96- p. 380 > (1957 July-Aug). [3] Leakey, D., "Some Measurements on the Effects of > Interchannel Intensity and Time Differences in Two Channel Sound > Systems", J. Acoust. Soc. Amer., vol. 31, pp. 977-986 (1959 July). > [4] Bauer, B., “Phasor analysis of some stereophonic phenomena”, J. > Acoust. Soc. Am., vol. 33, pp. 1536–1539, Nov. 1961. [5] Dutton, G. > "The Assessment of Two-Channel Stereophonic Reproduction Performance > in Studio Monitor Rooms, Living Rooms and Small Theatres", J. Audio > Eng. Soc. , vol. 10, pp. 98-105 (1962 Apr). [6] Makita, Y. "On the > Directional Localisation of Sound in the Stereophonic Sound Field", > E.B.U. Review, Part A, No. 73, pp. 102-108 (1962 June). [7] Mertens, > H., “Directional hearing in stereophony -Theory and experimental > verification” Europ. Broadcasting Union Rev. Part A, 92, 1-14 (1965) > [8] Bennett, J. Barker, K. and Edeko, F. “A New Approach to the > Assessment of Stereophonic Sound System Performance”, J. Audio Eng. > Soc., vol. 33, pp. 314-321 (1985 May). If I were to summarize all of > these, on the subject of speaker angle, the consensus would be that > they recommend a small angle because it works better. Dutton, in > particular, used an angle of 53 degrees, that being what he observed > being used in practice. 53 degrees is the angle subtended by speakers > where the distance between the speakers is the same as the distance > to the center of the line connecting the two speakers. I have two > observations from my own research. The first is that the ear signals > resulting from equal signals at the loudspeakers is not the same as > for a real source located between the loudspeakers. The second is > that, if I measure the ear signals for a real listener for the equal > loudspeaker signal case, the two ears are different. Why? Because the > summation of the signals at the ears is so sensitive that a condition > of balance is never achieved. The loudspeakers don't have the same > sensitivity, they are not precisely the same distance from the ears, > and the listener's head itself isn't precisely symmetrical, isn't > located precisely on the centerline, and isn't pointed precisely > directly ahead. All of these factors contribute to the perception > that the phantom image isn't like a real sound source. Eric ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] OT Stereo stage width
That's a nice potted history, Mark. It wants writing up into a paper, with modern connotations. It's a genuine problem getting students to read 'history', and so they always find themselves 'plonked' in the present, with no idea how we got here, or what useful ideas simply got edged out and might be worth revisiting. Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of newme...@aol.com Sent: 30 March 2016 15:52 To: eero@dlc.fi; sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: Re: [Sursound] OT Stereo stage width Eero: Yes, history is fascinating. I researched this a while back (yes, which was also why I joined this group) and can add some to your description . . . !! The 1930s Bell Labs "Auditory Perspective" research actually concluded that the "minimum" required THREE speakers (for an audience, not an individual, which wasn't even being thought about) and the papers that presented this were largely forgotten until I brought it up and the AES Historical Committee found them and put them online (yes, I threatened to "bootleg" them if they didn't). All this was discussed at length on the Ampex mailing-list at the time, since that's where the "old-timers" were hanging out then. http://www.aes.org/aeshc/docs/bell.labs/auditoryperspective.pdf I had found out about this by interviewing Mark Levinson (at his Red Rose studio/sales office, tucked below the Whitney Museum), who recounted that he had driven his MG to visit Paul Klipsch (when he was just a standup jazz bass musician) and was sent away with a copy of the Bell Labs papers with the assignment to "study" what was already known. The famous Klipschorn "K-Horn" was designed to sit in the corner the room (which is why it has an angled back) and various "speaker consoles" of the time, including the equally famous JBL Paragon, were designed as MONO center speakers (later converted to "stereo"), intended to be paired with TWO more "corner" speakers. http://www.klipsch.com/klipschorn-history Then I visited the most well-known audio high-end store in Manhattan, Lyric Sound (now Lyric HiFi & Video), and spoke with its founder, Mike Kay (1923-2012). Mike told me that Saul Marantz and "all" the early pioneers (i.e. 1950s and presumably in the US) were convinced that THREE channel stereo was the way-to-go -- intended to be delivered by 3-channel 1/4" tape machines. But then, Mike said the *marketing* people took over and, on the basis that no HOUSEWIFE would allow her living room to be taken over by such a collection of equipment (plus, no doubt the influence of the record-company *phonograph* lobby) and, as a result, *two* channel stereo became the "commercial" standard (with a brief sideshow of Quad). As you might know, most recording consoles of the late-50s/early-60s (i.e. before multitrack recorders became widespread) had THREE output channels -- typically driving a 1/2" three-channel tape recorder. And, indeed, some actually recorded with the intent of reproducing those *three* channels in the home -- perhaps most famously the Columbia 30th street "church" recordings of Miles Davis et al. As then later "re-mastered" onto SACD by Mark Wilder at Sony (and now only sold in Japan?) -- if you haven't heard it, then you haven't heard Miles. http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/product/SICP-10083 One of the most important influences in those days on these "debates" was film, since JBL (and others) were based in southern California. In the 1950s, television (mono) was threatening movie attendance (which was massive in the 1940s, with much of the population going multiple times a week to the theater), so Hollywood did two things: widen the screen (in various ways) and increase the sound "realism" (with the Bell Labs THREE channel stereo and then more). When we finally got to 5.1 etc (all of which is based on 3-channel stereo), that was associated with wide screen 16:9 HDTV and, of course, we called it "Home Theater" -- allowing *television* to finally catch up with its 1950s movie competition. . . !! Mark Stahlman Jersey City Heights In a message dated 3/30/2016 9:21:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, eero@dlc.fi writes: Peter Lennox wrote: > At the back of my mind, the4re's something nagging me - I'm sure I've > read of someone advocating 3 speaker stereo (is that similar to > trifield?) and finding that a wider spacing of LR speakers was > desirable? - makes sense. We
Re: [Sursound] OT Stereo stage width - Was: Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible?
At the back of my mind, the4re's something nagging me - I'm sure I've read of someone advocating 3 speaker stereo (is that similar to trifield?) and finding that a wider spacing of LR speakers was desirable? - makes sense. Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Pickett Sent: 30 March 2016 11:45 To: eero@dlc.fi; Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] OT Stereo stage width - Was: Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible? At 11:54 30-03-16, Eero Aro wrote: >If 90 degrees between the speakers works for you, fine. Most likely the >commercial recordings you are listening to, have been monitored with an >60 degrees angle, as that has been the "standard" setup in studios for >more than 60 years. It didn't happen when 5.1 came up. On the contrary, >the working group that defined the 5.1 setup, started from a center >channel and a good stereo image in front that works for most people. > >As Dave Malham says, there must be AES papers where this 60 degrees has >been taken from. As you say: it goes back further than the AES: I would look at old copies of Wireless World or Proc IEE/IRE! We used approx. 60 degrees at Abbey Rd in the late 60s, largely dictated by the size of the control rooms. David ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] OT Stereo stage width - Was: Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible?
wasn't the original conception for stereo = 90 degrees, but 'hole in the middle' effects led to standardising on the narrower figure? Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Dave Hunt [davehuntau...@btinternet.com] Sent: 29 March 2016 19:02 To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: Re: [Sursound] OT Stereo stage width - Was: Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible? Hi Stefan, The "stereo triangle" page you pointed to says, "By making the distance between the speakers and each speaker to you (the center listening point) the same, you have made an equilateral triangle. This stereo set up ensures that the sound from each speaker has the exact same distance to travel to reach you." The first sentence is true. However an equilateral triangle is not necessary to ensure that each speaker is at the same distance to a laterally central listener. For an equilateral triangle the sound would travel the same distance from one speaker to another as it does to travel to the listener. I don't see that this is of any importance. OK some sound from each speaker would be reflected by the other, but this would be off axis from the source speaker and reflected backwards due to the speakers being angled inwards towards the listener. I would suggest that this would be barely audible in comparison with other acoustic room effects. The -3dB central panning level is a result of the sine/cosine panning law. One speaker is at zero degrees, the other at 90 degrees. When fed a mono signal an angle of 0 results in a gain of one to one speaker and zero to the other. 90 degrees reverses the result. 45 degrees gives a gain to each speaker of 0.707, or -3dB. This appears to result in a good phantom central image. With a linear panning law the gain to each speaker would be 0.5 or -6dB, which appears to result in a "hole in the middle". Why plus and minus 30 degree separation for "normal stereo" is still a mystery to me. Ciao, Dave Hunt > From: Stefan Schreiber > Date: 28 March 2016 19:07:14 BDT > To: eero@dlc.fi, Surround Sound discussion group > > Subject: Re: [Sursound] OT Stereo stage width - Was: Static stereo > source in rotating soundfield, possible? > > > Eero Aro wrote: > >> Hi Dave >> >> I have a feeling that this subject has been discussed in Sursound >> many times >> before. >> >> The point in my reply was that when you use two channel stereo in the >> surround sound field, a wide angle between the virtual >> loudspeakers doesn't >> work too well. >> >> I don't know where the 60 degrees angle between the stereo >> speakers originally >> came from. Blumlein used a 30...35 degrees angle between the >> speakers. >> When I started to work in broadcasting in 1977, all control rooms >> were equipped >> with a stereo listening setup. The speakers were arranged so that >> they were in a >> 60 degrees angle from the mixer's seat. >> >> I have noticed with students, that there is a wide spectrum of >> people, most do >> can integrate a stereo sound image between the loudpeakers with 60 >> degrees. >> I have met people, who tell that they cannot hear any kind of a >> stereo image >> between the loudspeakers, whatever the angle. They hear sound from >> two speakers. >> At the other end are people, who can hear an integrated stereo >> image with 90 >> degrees. >> >> I don't know. Anyway, in music industry and boradcasting, you need >> to have some >> standard. The broadcasting house I worked in, had then 250 radio >> studios. The >> listening conditions needed to be at least somewhat similar >> between control rooms, >> so that you could continue the work in another studio another day. >> Why 60 degrees >> was chosen, I don't know. >> >> Eero >> > Because of the < stereo triangle > concept? > > http://www.centerpointaudio.com/SpeakerPlacementAndPositioning.aspx > > "Equilateral", bla bla bla... the angle is 60º in the equilateral > bla bla bla > Best, > > Stefan > > > > > From: David Pickett > Date: 28 March 2016 19:33:08 BDT > To: Surround Sound discussion group > Subject: Re: [Sursound] OT Stereo stage width - Was: Static stereo > source in rotating soundfield, possible? > > > The problem with speakers at +/- 45 degrees is that one needs a > wide room if one is to sit at a decent distance from them. > However, it can be impres
Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible?
Actually, dissenting voices apart, I can see how one might want some items in a sound field to be localisable, and some not. If this is actually what is wanted here - and taking into account one might want a particular component to be 'everywhere and nowhere' - but not inside the head - then a decorrelated version of the mono version of the desired unlocalisable-but-externalised signal could be generated and fed to the array (so basically, it's decorrelated in each speaker feeds with respect to all others) - so no precedence or phantom imaging. when the rest of the field is rotated - although this is too, it still won't be localisable and the impression should be that it doesn't particularly move. The perceptual impression ought to be that this is underlying incidental music (like film music) not part of the actual scene depicted. - We are well versed in listening to that. For decorrelation methods, the same methods as in Earl Vickers' "fixing the phantom center: diffusing acoustical crosstalk" might be efficacious cheers ppl Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Joseph Anderson [j.ander...@ambisonictoolkit.net] Sent: 29 March 2016 00:59 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible? Hello Eero, I could say something about the competing voices (on W) inside my head... and the difficulty in deciding which to regard as an appropriate guide. But, this isn't a suitable forum for such discussions. ;-) My best, *Joseph Anderson* *http://www.ambisonictoolkit.net/ <http://www.ambisonictoolkit.net/>* On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 1:35 PM, Eero Aro wrote: > It's early days in VR. >> > > I agree with Stefan. > > A couple of months ago I attended a seminar, where we were shown some > 360 video examples of holiday travel advertising clips. VR is a nice tool > for > the travel agencies, as you can get a hint of what you could see if you > travel > there. It just looked like they don't know yet, how to use the medium. > > If I was watching such a 360 video, I'd like to localize the guide's > voice-over > in front of me all the time, no matter where I turn my sight. As the > person is > not seen in the picture, the voice-over is not in conflict with what you > see. > > Also, I'd rather _not_ localize the voice-over inside my head. (Using W.) > I would feel uncomfortable with a guide's voice inside my head. > > Eero > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20160328/e207e423/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible?
Actually, you can do it by using a plug in to rotate the entire field, and another to counter-rotate the sources you wish to remain static, if you see what I mean. In fact, it would make the basis of a marvellous plugin to bunble these functions together, that could depict parallax and therefore, distance perception. Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine Leudar [augustineleu...@gmail.com] Sent: 26 March 2016 05:21 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible? I automate panning with ambisonics using ICST ambisonic panner (though you can automate any panner) . I have often had many sources moving whilst others stay static - not sure if thats what you mean ? On 26 March 2016 at 04:58, Albert Leusink wrote: > Hello, > > Is it possible to have a non-rotating stereo source in the ambisonic > soundfield, while all the other sources rotate? > > Let's say I have a stereo music bed in a spherical video that needs to stay > in position, while the other elements (dialog, sfx etc.) respond to > rotation. > > It works for mono (by sending it to just the W channel), but how about > stereo, maybe some kind of double M/S that counters the rotation ? > > Pardon my ignorance beforehand if this is the equivalent of fitting a > square > peg into a round hole... > > Thanks ! > > Albert > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > -- Augustine Leudar Artistic Director Magik Door LTD Company Number : NI635217 Registered 63 Ballycoan rd, Belfast BT88LL -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20160326/ae94d9aa/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Sennheiser Ambeo
But isn't some american company patenting everything remotely ambisonic? Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Pickett [d...@fugato.com] Sent: 17 March 2016 20:24 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sennheiser Ambeo At 19:55 17-03-16, alan.va...@talktalk.net wrote: > >Am I correct in thinking that patents expire after 10 years or so, >after which its a free-for-all? Ten years is a low figure. But I believe the original Ambisonic/Soundfield patents are no longer valid. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Sennheiser Ambeo
Bruce is on this list - he told me about it. - I'll nudge him - he was surprised no-one had noticed it Joseph - you in Derbyshire? where? (I steam through the Derbyshire Peak district every day in my Landrover - not actually at high speed, but it feels like it) Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Joseph Anderson [j.ander...@ambisonictoolkit.net] Sent: 17 March 2016 21:01 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Sennheiser Ambeo Hi Peter, Who? What? (UW Cherry Blossoms <https://twitter.com/uwcherryblossom> are now in their full glory outside my office window Hope Spring in Derbyshire has sprung!) My best, Jo *Joseph Anderson* *http://www.ambisonictoolkit.net/ <http://www.ambisonictoolkit.net/>* On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 1:49 PM, Peter Lennox wrote: > But isn't some american company patenting everything remotely ambisonic? > Dr. Peter Lennox > Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy > Senior Lecturer in Perception > College of Arts > University of Derby > > Tel: 01332 593155 > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20160317/571d685b/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Sennheiser Ambeo
Well, it looks like an ambisonic mic? Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Courville, Daniel Sent: 16 March 2016 12:34 To: Sursound Subject: [Sursound] Sennheiser Ambeo http://www.engadget.com/2016/03/15/sennheiser-3d-audio-demo-ambeo/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] OSSIC Kickstarter Campaign Begins
you can move head in relation to shoulders - tilt, rotate and so on - and shoulders in relation to head (eg lift one shoulder) - so although these can all be mapped to a cartesian frame of reference, that might not be the best way to mathematically represent it - for instance, you might curve the spine, then normalise the axis running thru' the ears with respect to the horizon, resulting in an effective shoulder tilt with respect to the head... and so on) So, think of the number of combinations of head-shoulder-horizon relationships, then ask how these can be experimentally simplified - and in doing so, you have to justify the simplifications on perceptual grounds, i.e. what computational economies are pragmatically justifiable... Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Stefan Schreiber [st...@mail.telepac.pt] Sent: 27 February 2016 18:57 To: umashankar manthravadi ç; Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] OSSIC Kickstarter Campaign Begins umashankar manthravadi wrote: > I was trying to say something else. The head moves independently of > shoulder position. Pinnae are rigidly linked to the head; the > shoulders are not. That is what made me think the two should be > treated separately. > > > > umashankar > Sorry for coming back "late": The head < can > move independently of shoulder position, if the reference is the "HRTF sphere" - or simply say "outside world". :-) (There are two ways to change the position of yours ears: Your whole body moves, you move just your head vs. a fixed torso - and obviously you can have all combinations.) The visual case (eye movement) is very similar. There are two basic ways to move your eyes, i.e. to change your view: http://www.roadtovr.com/hands-smis-gear-vr-eye-tracking-accurate-fast-lightweight/ In both cases (eye, ear movements) you have two degrees of freedom. Best, St. > > > Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for > Windows 10 > > > > From: Stefan Schreiber <mailto:st...@mail.telepac.pt> > Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 8:07 AM > To: Surround Sound discussion group <mailto:sursound@music.vt.edu> > Subject: Re: [Sursound] OSSIC Kickstarter Campaign Begins > > > > Stefan Schreiber wrote: > > > Augustine Leudar wrote: > > > >> do you have a reference/source for that - that shoulder head > reflections > >> dont matter in anechoice etc etc - I would be interested to read it... > >> > >> > > They just arrive later than direct sound. And if the HRTF length is > > too short and so you don't have the sample length to capture (any) > > reflections... > > > > Clear? Or did < I > miss something? > > > > St. > > > Ok, I stand corrected: > > http://alumni.media.mit.edu/~kdm/hrtfdoc/section3_4.html#SECTION0004000 > <http://alumni.media.mit.edu/%7Ekdm/hrtfdoc/section3_4.html#SECTION0004000> > > > In order to reduce the size of the data set without eliminating > > anything of potential interest, we decided to discard the first 200 > > samples of each impulse response and save the next 512 samples. Each > > HRTF response is thus 512 samples long. < Most researchers will no > > doubt truncate this data further. > > > > > 44.1 kHz sampling rate > > As the speed of sound is about 340m/s, you will capture shoulder > reflections even with just 128 samples. > > > (If your ear-shoulder distance is about 20cm, the shoulder reflections > will arrive about 40cm delayed compared to direct sound, i.e. about 1,2 > ms later. > > 128/44.100 = 2,9 ms.) > > Best, > > Stefan > > > > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] OSSIC Kickstarter Campaign Begins
It wouldn't be: stick small speaker in the ear canal and measure with a bunch of mics, would it? Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Stefan Schreiber Sent: 25 February 2016 16:28 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] OSSIC Kickstarter Campaign Begins Augustine Leudar wrote: >Actually that does make sense - though what it does to the resolution >of localisation or whether pinna filtering will work with the drivers >so close remains to be seen - exciting if they've got it to work . Im >sure I read something about the US military trying this out somewhere. > >There is another >crushingly simple and obvious way of calibrating HRTFs though which I'm >not sure anyones thought of yet - whenever I say that it always turns >out somebody has years ago but anyway > > Please tell us about this (secret) smashing but simple way...Can't wait to learn about this one! :-D Best, Stefan >On 24 February 2016 at 12:18, umashankar manthravadi > >wrote: > > > >>when you have four speakers to each ear, you can think of a decode to >>a cube. The only big difference between a cube mounted at a distance >>and this would be the importance of the head shadow. If you can cancel >>head movement (which headtracking does) it is very similar to >>listening to a cube of speakers in a room. there are some details of >>course. You do not need individual HRTFs. I am not sure what different >>head sizes will do. If the foam support compresses (and the distance >>to the drivers is fixed) it may not matter. >> >>umashankar >> >>Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for >>Windows 10 >> >>From: Steven Boardman<mailto:boardroomout...@gmail.com> >>Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 5:20 PM >>To: Surround Sound discussion group<mailto:sursound@music.vt.edu> >>Subject: Re: [Sursound] OSSIC Kickstarter Campaign Begins >> >>Not sure they would. As they are over the ear headphones, one doesn’t >>need pinna HRTF as ones own would function. >>They probably made HRTF files for each driver position. That way your >>own pinna effects would function. >> >>Steve >> >> >> >>On 24 Feb 2016, at 11:30, Augustine Leudar >>wrote: >> >> >> >>>Theyd still have to somehow measure the pinna dimensions though - >>>which >>> >>> >>is >> >> >>>the most important part for vertical localisation - without that it >>>wont work with just shoulder reflections and headwidth... >>> >>>On 24 February 2016 at 10:33, Corentin Guézénoc < >>> >>> >>c.gueze...@3dsoundlabs.com> >> >> >>>wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Based on what I had gathered from some video some time ago, my guess >>>>is that they use some kind of HRTF model that takes into account the >>>>user's head width, combined with the 4-driver system. I guess the >>>>first would >>>> >>>> >>act >> >> >>>>mostly on low frequencies and the latter on higher frequencies that >>>> >>>> >>would >> >> >>>>be harder to model. However the last part is only a guess which I'm >>>>not sure about. >>>> >>>>Corentin >>>> >>>> >>>> >>-- next part -- An HTML attachment was >>scrubbed... >>URL: < >>https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2016022 >>4/be696610/attachment.html >> >> >>___ >>Sursound mailing list >>Sursound@music.vt.edu >>https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe >>here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. >>-- next part -- An HTML attachment was >>scrubbed... >>URL: < >>https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2016022 >>4/b65f7161/attachment.html >> >> >>___ >>Sursound mailing list >>Sursound@music.vt.edu >>https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/surso
Re: [Sursound] Different usages, different spaces, different decoders?
downloaded it, thanks Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Eero Aro [eero@dlc.fi] Sent: 22 February 2016 20:58 To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: Re: [Sursound] Different usages, different spaces, different decoders? Ok, here. I put it in my DB: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22100835/Comparative%20study%20of%20effective%20soundfield%20reconstruction%20Furlong%20AES%20198909012014_.pdf I won't keep it there for a long time. Please download. Eero ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Different usages, different spaces, different decoders?
ah! - thanks - I know Dermot, I'll ask him regards ppl Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Martin Leese [martin.le...@stanfordalumni.org] Sent: 22 February 2016 20:28 To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: Re: [Sursound] Different usages, different spaces, different decoders? Peter Lennox wrote: > Following on from discussions of decoder solutions: Forgive me if I've > missed this (I've been watching sursound for about 20 years, or so - but I > just may have missed the odd discussion!) > > Has anyone systematically studied the interactions between decoders, speaker > layouts and particular rooms? Dermot Furlong looked at the last two in the early 1990s. He made a lengthy post to "sursound" in June 1996 describing his work. This post used to be available in my area on the Ambisonia.com site, but it seems to have been deleted. I still have the files, but am not sure of the best way for making them available. ... > (and I haven't even mentioned the possible > variety of speaker dispersion characteristics!) Dermot also looked at this. Regards, Martin -- Martin J Leese E-mail: martin.leese stanfordalumni.org Web: http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
[Sursound] Different usages, different spaces, different decoders?
Following on from discussions of decoder solutions: Forgive me if I've missed this (I've been watching sursound for about 20 years, or so - but I just may have missed the odd discussion!) Has anyone systematically studied the interactions between decoders, speaker layouts and particular rooms? I ask because, it seems to me that interactions between room acoustics and speaker positioning are known to have significant psychoacoustic (and aesthetic) effects. Informally, I've observed ambisonics working better than it had any right to, in particularly difficult rooms (big reflective empty shoebox, for example). But in respect of particular speaker layouts, (as per the discussion on avoiding too many speaker in the horizontal plane), it seems to me that there could be non-trivial interactions, so that (for arguments' sake) a particular room might benefit from 'this' speaker layout as against 'that' speaker layout. I would seem a monster task to test a wide variety of rooms each with a wide variety of speaker layouts (and I haven't even mentioned the possible variety of speaker dispersion characteristics!) - but in the long run, it needs doing - and sufficient testing might reveal 'families' of layout-room acoustic relationships that can point to underlying causal rules. If it's been done, I'd like to read it, and if it hasn't - sounds like I've just knocked together a precis proposal for a PhD project! Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] A piece of history
Thanks John - and - sorry Bob - it will be put to good use, I promise. introducing students to the forerunners of the technology they use today adds a really useful dimension to their understanding. Though they routinely use software encoders and decoders, they will be surprised at just how much could be achieved back in the stone age cheers ppl Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Bob Burton [b...@audiorents.com] Sent: 06 February 2016 19:43 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] A piece of history I understand. Thanks for the response. There has been an amazing interest in Ambisonics over here in the VR world. Our Soundfield mics are getting regular use again after mostly sitting on the shelf for years. On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 10:30 AM, John Leonard wrote: > Peter got there first, I’m afraid. Maybe he’ll pass them on when he’s > finished playing with them. > > Eero sent me over a manual for the main part of the system, which is > fantastically helpful for sorting out what goes where and I’ll have a play > with the units when they arrive. If they are ex-ROH, they should have been > well looked after, so I’m hopeful that they’ll all be in working order. > > Regards, > > John > > Please note new email address & direct line phone number > email: j...@johnleonard.uk > phone +44 (0)20 3286 5942 > > > > On 6 Feb 2016, at 18:19, Bob Burton wrote: > > > > Would like to get them myself. > > > > Happy to pay any shipping and handling charges. > > > > On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 6:01 AM, Peter Lennox > wrote: > > > >> I'll happily take those off your hands - I love introducing my students > to > >> dodgy old gear... > >> Dr. Peter Lennox > >> Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy > >> Senior Lecturer in Perception > >> College of Arts > >> University of Derby > >> > >> Tel: 01332 593155 > >> > >> From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of John > Leonard [ > >> j...@johnleonard.uk] > >> Sent: 06 February 2016 13:59 > >> To: Surround Sound discussion group > >> Subject: Re: [Sursound] A piece of history > >> > >> Ah, forgot about no attachments: I got an Audio Design Pan Rotate unit, > an > >> Audio Design Ambisonic Decoder and something called an AMBI-8, which > seems > >> to link to the Ambisonic decoder. > >> > >> I’ll be fascinated to see what they can do, but if anyone has manuals, > >> that would be excellent. > >> > >> The auction was Ebay item Item # 262270964850 > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> John > >> > >> Please note new email address & direct line phone number > >> email: j...@johnleonard.uk > >> phone +44 (0)20 3286 5942 > >> > >> > >>> On 6 Feb 2016, at 13:53, John Leonard wrote: > >>> > >>> Just bought this lot for ??82 via Ebay. Ex Royal Opera House, > apparently. > >>> > >>> I???ll be using it for some demonstration work later in the year, but > if > >> anyone would like it after that I???ll happily sell it on for what I > paid. > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> > >>> John > >> > >> ___ > >> Sursound mailing list > >> Sursound@music.vt.edu > >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > >> edit account or options, view archives and so on. > >> > >> The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and > >> reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was > sent > >> to you in error, please select unsubscribe. > >> > >> Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk > >> For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk > >> All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ > >> ___ > >> Sursound mailing list > >> Sursound@music.vt.edu > >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > >> edit account or options, view archives and so on. > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Bob > > -- > > Audio Rents, Inc. > > 4209 Vanowen Pl
Re: [Sursound] A piece of history
I'll happily take those off your hands - I love introducing my students to dodgy old gear... Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of John Leonard [j...@johnleonard.uk] Sent: 06 February 2016 13:59 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] A piece of history Ah, forgot about no attachments: I got an Audio Design Pan Rotate unit, an Audio Design Ambisonic Decoder and something called an AMBI-8, which seems to link to the Ambisonic decoder. I’ll be fascinated to see what they can do, but if anyone has manuals, that would be excellent. The auction was Ebay item Item # 262270964850 Regards, John Please note new email address & direct line phone number email: j...@johnleonard.uk phone +44 (0)20 3286 5942 > On 6 Feb 2016, at 13:53, John Leonard wrote: > > Just bought this lot for ??82 via Ebay. Ex Royal Opera House, apparently. > > I???ll be using it for some demonstration work later in the year, but if > anyone would like it after that I???ll happily sell it on for what I paid. > > Regards, > > John ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always
Things may gradually change as new blood comes through. I have my students produce 'spatial soundscape foley' where they have to produce an entire environment that is plausible - even to the extent of me being able to walk around in it (I once had to navigate in pitch black, using only the sound environment) - yet synthesised out of found ingredients and synthesised ingredients. Almost every year I get one group who think they can blag it by taking the SF mic off to Weatherspoons (a local hostelry), drink a few pints while the recording is going on - job done, assignment in the bag. Every year they discover it sounds terrible. Then they realise they have to build the pub from the ground up (sonically, I mean) - and of course, that's the point of the exercise. It soon dawns on them that plausibility does not simply come out of accuracy, hence the 'spatial foley'. Students rapidly realise that the production tools are simply not predicated on this kind of task, and so they have to adapt and devise ways of working. So it will be a bigger task than generally recognised, to understand what 'spatial' actually means in artificial sound fields. BTW - one group even had some angry geese in their medieval inn... Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of John Leonard [j...@johnleonard.uk] Sent: 06 February 2016 12:04 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always Having had two theatre shows filmed for cinema release, I haven’t had the greatest experience engaging with the post production chaps: in both cases I’ve had to explain that when the cast members exit upstage, door slams shouldn’t be shoved in the rear speakers. Similarly, with a scene where all the cast are looking through an upstage window at someone riding across a field being chased by dogs, panning the sound effect through the rears and then round to the front speakers may be fun, but it doesn’t chime with with what’s on the screen. As for the up-mix to Dolby Atmos that happened for the second film, I had no control over how the effects were sourced and the result in the cinema was pretty terrible, and totally unnecessary. Rain makes a noise when it hits a surface, not when it’s flying through the air. The DTS system may be better - I have a colleague who’s involved in the development and he’s very enthusiastic about the possibilities. We shall see. John Please note new email address & direct line phone number email: j...@johnleonard.uk phone +44 (0)20 3286 5942 > On 5 Feb 2016, at 23:08, Peter Lennox wrote: > > Don't get me started on why massive soundstage = shrunken screen! > and as for why you don't want to look over your shoulder, expecting to see a > dinosaur but actually see an nice ice-cream lady - well duh! ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always
Don't get me started on why massive soundstage = shrunken screen! and as for why you don't want to look over your shoulder, expecting to see a dinosaur but actually see an nice ice-cream lady - well duh! But look - these issues are only just raising their heads (even if they were precisely what Blumlein was banging on about all that time ago). We could, gently, help Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine Leudar [augustineleu...@gmail.com] Sent: 05 February 2016 22:48 To: s...@mchapman.com; Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always You set up the wager by knowing the right people, and by being in the right place at the right time and undermining your competition ;) Part of the problem is that if the the audio gets too 3d or immersive then it destroy the illusion of the dated 2d screen. They certainly dont want people looking away from the screen and over their shoulder to see a dog barking etc It certainly sounds like Trond was experiencing the precedence effect - which implies the post house just upmixed from not even stereo - but from mono. Groan. On 05/02/2016, Michael Chapman wrote: > Peter Lennox wrote : >> >> maybe we should sponsor some kind of competition, to see how much >> spatiallity can be got into (and out of) Dolby atmos. > > Sounds worth pursuing. . . > > Michael > > > Don't want to dilute a good idea : but if the above 'flies' how about an > annual prize for the film with the 'best' sound ... the media luv that > sort of stuff ... > > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit > account or options, view archives and so on. > -- www.augustineleudar.com ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always
In fairness, these things take time- I don't think many people working in film sound will have grounding in principles of interaural cross correlation (IACC), or precedence effects, or cocktail party effects, or image focus, apparent source width, spaciousness and so on. Without these, any display system (5.1, 7.1, atmos, 22.2, ambisonics etc) is just a bunch of speakers. So, fair's fair - at least, if a given system has the potential to carry the subtle information, they have a chance - and, sooner or later, someone will spot the potential to use the system well. But if that potential isn't there... This is all redolent of Quadraphonics, which, although conceptually misbegotten, could actually have carried a great deal more spatial information than it ever got chance to. alright, it couldn't depict phantom imagery to the sides (cones of confusion and all that), but it could have carried more spaciousness. Of course, 5.1 is only really Quad+dialogue channel. and atmos is just a bit of a step beyond. But evolution is a slow process. maybe we should sponsor some kind of competition, to see how much spatiallity can be got into (and out of) Dolby atmos. Actually, I quite like that - working against the constraints of an inadequate system - well, it's a bit like racing Landrover Defenders; bonkers but quite fun. I'll bet £5 right now (and I'm a Yorkshireman, so we don't do that kind of thing lightly) That, if I had my hands on the gear to encode to Dolby Atmos, then I could make it - not accurate' but certainly not coming out of the nearest speaker - wherever you're sitting - I bet I could make it somewhat spacious. How do we set up this wager? Glen Dickens - you on this list? cheers ppl Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine Leudar [augustineleu...@gmail.com] Sent: 05 February 2016 19:26 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always It depends on the mix engineer more than the potential of the system. They generally don't have a clue how to mix in surround even in high end post houses. On Friday, 5 February 2016, Trond Lossius wrote: > For what it’s worth I recently attended a Dolby Atmos screening of the > most recent Star Wars movie. I ended up in the frontmost left seat, and I > have to say that I was surprised that next to all of the sound of the > screening for me appeared to come from one and one only speaker just off > the screen to the left. I didn’t expect to get the same experience as if > seated in the middle, but still t thought that Dolby Atmos mixing and > reproduction would be much more resilient to off-centre listening. > > But then again, I’m generally pretty underwhelmed with how the Doly Atmos > format is being used in most blockbuster Hollywood productions. Apart from > a few swishes here and there as a mere audible spectacle, there seem to be > a lack of understanding and imagination with respect to how spatial sound > can help invite a deeper sense of immersion in the places where the story > unfolds. > > Cheers, > Trond > > > > On 05 Feb 2016, at 15:43, jim moses > > wrote: > > > > I the state the obvious - something I imagine everyone on this list > > understands.. > > > > The main reason to keep dialogue in the center channel is that panned > > phantom images are unstable for most of the audience in a theater. > Panning > > to a center speaker fixes the location for everyone, instead of moving to > > the speaker you are sitting closest to. > > > > jm > > > > On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 8:29 AM, > > wrote: > > > >> Yes, in Gravity this is easily possible in the opening shot: it's a > super > >> long > >> wide shot where Clooney is off picture in the beginning. There is plenty > >> of tome to absorb the scene and the > >> position of everything. This is an obvious opportunity to pan dialogue > as > >> it is really underlining the > >> dramaturgical intent. And this always is the criteria. > >> If the picture cuts are too fast (and this limit is reached soon), > >> following the > >> perspective panning-wise exaggerates the edits, makes them obvious > >> and potentially destroys the seamless flow of the narration. That's the > >> main reason > >> for keeping the dialogue in the center. If the shots are long enough, > >> if there are off-voices, if there is movement or something similar in a > >> dramaturgical sense, > >> t
Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural
Bo, The point is that FOA never appealed to those elements of HRTFs in the 6K+ region (well, actually, much lower than that) - which is where pinnae cues are most important. That is, FOA simply 'neutralises' pinnae cues by homogenization Or, to put it another way, if you want pinnae cues (i.e. minimal wavefront error [I think Vanderkot and Lipshitz use KR error for this] at high frequencies) then you need high order, and the processing overhead climbs steeply with frequency. If you're prepared to settle for the rather neat solution that FOA homogenises pinnae cues in such a way as to not give spurious and erroneous cues, relying instead on Duplex components - it's fine up to a certain standard. But you won't have good control of height (pinnae again), though you can have good control of 'spaciousness' (via interaural cross correlation at LF, say, up to 1500Hz) So High order might not be as valuable for sense of space as it is for precision localisation of sources. In respect of that precision - you're right that, whilst the optimum minimum audible angle (MAA) might be in the region of 1-2 degrees at 0 degree aximuth and elevation (Mills 1957), it very probably is more like 10 degrees at source angle =/- 90 degrees azimuth, and indeed, similar for +/- 90 elevation So, horses for courses; for most applications, FOA probably will be enough - especially as you say, if 'out-of-head' soundstage is a key ingredient; this is more to do with the reverberant field and its spatial qualities - and it may well be that that really doesn't need excruciatingly fine directional resolution to be perceptually effective. Same goes with the stable soundstage - the head tracking, combined with the out-of-head-reflected sound field will probably provide oodles of plausibility. Combine that with any visual input at all, as in VR - job done! Finally, as you say about adaptability - I mentioned earlier that one of the best ambisonic listeners I came across was Dave Malham - because of extended practice. - It's the same with sonar operators. So, for many VR operators, a training period can help operators learn to detect cues which, though 'fuzzy', are still sufficiently coherent to permit good performance. It just won't be instantly gratifying to the novice. But who cares about them? Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Bo-Erik Sandholm [bosses...@gmail.com] Sent: 28 January 2016 21:12 To: sursound Subject: Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining B-format to binaural I do understand that HOA can represent resolution of directivity in the mathematic domain better than FOA. But I am starting to suspect we are overworking something when we are talking of order 8 to 15? Is it realistic to even think of measuring individual HRTF response with that angle resolution? And is it even neccessary when we know the adaptability of the auditory system? As stereo works good enough over 45 degrees with 2 speakers and correct psycho acoustic setup and a good recording are we not aiming for a overkill system? As a normal guy without training in listening for direction of sound sources I suspect I cannot really pinpoint many things in more than +-10 degrees without visual cues. I remember old discussion results about ideal number of loudspeakers for horizontal FOA replay being 6 speakers. My goal is to have a device that can play through headphones a stereo or FOA recording and give me a minimum experience of listening to a stereo system or FOA setup with out of head sound and a stable position of the soundstage. I am not certain this is relevant in this discussion thread as we probably have different views of the goals and the path to the goals. Bo-Erik On 28 Jan 2016 12:37, "Politis Archontis" wrote: > Hi Fons, > > ___ > From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] on behalf of Fons > Adriaensen [f...@linuxaudio.org] > Sent: 27 January 2016 23:58 > To: sursound@music.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Never do math in public, or my take on explaining > B-format to binaural > > > plus independent decorators/reverberators per HOA channel, > > with different decays at different frequencies, for the > > late part. The late part filters require a further tuning > > stage though, to match the ‘sinc’ like binaural-coherence > > of left and right ear signals in diffuse sound. I have > > found that this matching improves significantly > > externalisation, and sounds more natural. > > I'd be much interested to learn more about that... > > Ciao, > > -- > FA &g
Re: [Sursound] How to derive a good "universal" HRTF data set?
Told you Brian was doing something in this line. Brian, can you say more about learning effects / training periods in respect of hrtf sets? Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Brian FG Katz [brian.k...@limsi.fr] Sent: 25 January 2016 16:45 To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: Re: [Sursound] How to derive a good "universal" HRTF data set? Dear list, On the topic of creating a reduced set of HRTFs from a large database and on learning non-individual HRTFs, I would like to (shamelessly) promote two studies we carried out a few years ago looking at exactly these questions: B. Katz and G. Parseihian, “Perceptually based head-related transfer function database optimization,” J. Acoust. Soc. Am., vol. 131, no. 2, pp. EL99–EL105, 2012, doi:10.1121/1.3672641. (free on-line) G. Parseihian and B. Katz, “Rapid head-related transfer function adaptation using a virtual auditory environment,” J. Acoust. Soc. Am., vol. 131, no. 4, pp. 2948–2957, 2012, doi:10.1121/1.3687448. I can also point you towards a recent direction of interest with regards to HRTF ratings. I think experiment, in addition to the 7 from the above study and some other HRTFs, there were also 2 HRTF pairs of the same people, measured several years apart. The similarity of the ratings of these HRTFs gives some insight, and we are currently extending this study on general repeatability of HRTF perceptual ratings. A. Andreopoulou and B. F. G. Katz, “On the use of subjective HRTF evaluations for creating global perceptual similarity metrics of assessors and assessees,” in 21st International Conference on Auditory Display (ICAD), pp. 13–20, 2015, http://hdl.handle.net/1853/54095. Best regards, -Brian FG Katz -- Brian FG Katz, Ph.D, HDR Research Director, Resp. Groupe Audio & Acoustique LIMSI, CNRS, Université Paris-Saclay Rue John von Neumann Campus Universitaire d'Orsay, Bât 508 91405 Orsay cedex France Phone. + 33 (0)1 69 85 80 67 - Fax. + 33 (0)1 69 85 80 88 http://www.limsi.frweb_group: https://www.limsi.fr/fr/recherche/aa web_theme: http://www.limsi.fr/Scientifique/aa/thmsonesp/ -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 3877 bytes Desc: not available URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20160125/b111cdc6/attachment.p7s> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] How to derive a good "universal" HRTF data set?
Dave - yes - you could have made that point; you were the first person I observed to exhibit this 'training period' in that you could hear more detail in an ambisonic recording than most, because (I think) of prolonged exposure. Training periods are known in psychology experimentation, and Kopco and Shinn-Cunningham did quite a bit on listening in different rooms, finding (amongst other things) that auditory spatial perception showed performance improvement of a period (couple of hours to reach asymptote, I think) and these improvements carried over to the next day, and, oddly to quite different locations in the same room. I suspect it's the same principle as the 'golden pinnae' experiments, where subjects can(after training period) achieve results with others' pinnae equivalent to their own - and, on occasions, better results! So a small range of well-chosen HRTFs ought to suffice for the majority of the population, providing there is opportunity for appropriate training periods. Isn't Brian Katz doing something on this? cheers (get back to my marking, and stop prevaricating) Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Dave Malham [dave.mal...@york.ac.uk] Sent: 25 January 2016 13:04 To: ch...@chriswoolf.co.uk; Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] How to derive a good "universal" HRTF data set? Chris makes some very good points, ones that I wish I'd made myself! We must be continuously recalibrating our hearing to be able to deal with all the effects Chris mentions otherwise the conflict between the physical sense of hearing and our internal perceptual models would become too excessive. Dave On 25 January 2016 at 12:40, Chris wrote: > Maybe a silly question... > > But how much work has been done on the self-consistency of HRTFs? I'm > aware that ear-wax, colds, which way round I sleep, etc can affect the > level and HF response of one ear to another. And clothing, haircuts etc > must significantly change the acoustic signal round our heads. > > So are measured HRTFs consistent over time? Or do we re-calibrate > ourselves on a continuous basis? > > If the latter is true, then I can see that a generic HRTF could work if we > were given some method (and time for) calibration. > > Chris Woolf > > On 25-Jan-16 11:45, Bo-Erik Sandholm wrote: > >> Just a short note, my wish list for what I think. could be a good way of >> doing binaural coding is to use these parameters: >> >> - the distance between the ears (head size) is the most import factor so >> maybe 5 sizes to choose from. ( I have a larger inter ear distance than >> the >> norm) >> >> - use only simple generic compensation for ear shape above ~4kHz. >> >> - the shoulder reflection controlled by head tracking data, the simplest >> way is to assume the listener is stationary and only turns his head. Could >> this be implemented to be a parametric controlled filter set? >> >> Can anyone create a binaural encoding using this? >> >> I think the shoulder compensation is something that have not been done. >> As far as I know all binaural encodings are done using data sets with a >> fixed head and shoulder position. >> >> Best regards >> Bo-Erik Sandholm >> Stockholm >> -- next part -- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: < >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20160125/039046f6/attachment.html >> > >> ___ >> Sursound mailing list >> Sursound@music.vt.edu >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, >> edit account or options, view archives and so on. >> >> >> > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > -- As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University. These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University Dave Malham Honorary Fellow, Department of Music The University of York York YO10 5DD UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20160125/8fec
Re: [Sursound] Audio cable - relic
Given the heavy reliance on (and general acceptance of) autotuning, I suppose we could let the software go one step further and simply use a camera to 'lip read' and synthesise the voice entirely... Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Eero Aro [eero@dlc.fi] Sent: 17 December 2015 13:16 To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: [Sursound] Audio cable - relic Sorry, forgot to comment. I use another subject to avoid off-topicing. Augustine wrote: > I look forward to the day when I hear the question "Grandad - what's an > audio cable ?" I have been looking forward for decades to the day when I hear the question: "Grandad, what is that clumsy obejct that the last century singers hold in front of their mouth?" I really cannot understand why it is so difficult to construct a solution to capture a singer's voice without a bulky microphone. Yes, there are lavaliers on the cheek and forehead, and headset mics, but they don't have the same sound as a good vocalist mic, and don't look too attractive either. It is possible to shoot a picture from a distance without puttting anything in the way between a nice looking singer and the camera, but it isn't possible to capture the sound in the same way. (Yes, I know about the differences between acoustics and light travel.) Of course in some music, such as rap or hip-hop a microphone is used as part of the performance. But I'm not sure if I'd miss that either. Eero ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] vertical precendence and summing localisation (wallis and lee 2015)
Hi Joseph - yes I did - and that was because there are two main areas of non-linearity in perception, to do with actual proximity in real environments: "peripersonal space" and "auditory looming" - and these are not easily amenable to acoustic-only treatments. That doesn't mean we can't take them into account, but it will take some oddball thinking My head hurts Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Joseph Anderson Sent: 14 December 2015 20:23 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] vertical precendence and summing localisation (wallis and lee 2015) Hi Peter, You left out proximity in your panner. (Doh!) ;-) One of our postgrads (Dan Peterson <https://dxarts.washington.edu/people/daniel-peterson>) has been working on a doppler-panner that includes diffusion filtering and the proximity effect. (Of course, all built out of the SuperCollider version of the ATK <http://doc.sccode.org/Guides/Intro-to-the-ATK.html>.) The results are fairly convincing. The technique was used for Peterson's new piece Steilacoom, premiered on the recent UW DXARTS Concert <https://dxarts.washington.edu/events/2015-11-20/dxarts-fall-concert>. The plan is to make this code available as part of the ATK <http://doc.sccode.org/Guides/Intro-to-the-ATK.html> documentation. *Joseph Anderson* *http://www.ambisonictoolkit.net/ <http://www.ambisonictoolkit.net/>* On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 5:36 AM, Peter Lennox wrote: > A reason for 'tinting' on the encode side might be this: > > Sometimes, when synthesing a 3-d soundscape, I find it useful to pan > decorrelated reverberant material upwards - this gives a sense of > upward-spaciousness, and can help with clariy and intelligibility of > sources (kind of directional release from masking) - it's also handy > when using reverb to simulate distant sources. > > Tinting on the decode side might interfere with that, whereas doing it > on the encode side gives the flexibility to choose. > > There's another thing - dynamic panning in trajectories overhead - > 'tinting' would allow a slight phasy effect to interact with a doppler > effect to emphasise that passing overhead sensation - and intuitively, > it makes sense to combine these parameters in a single plugin. > > I quite like the idea of dedicated dynamic overhead panners... > > But then I quite like the idea of "straight line panners"... which > could actually incorporate parameters for object velocity and > distance, utilising amplitude, EQ and dry/reverb, all in one plugin. > > And I fancy the idea of 'flocking, chasing and scattering' panners > > and 'self motion panners' - that can be loaded up with a bunch of > sources with nominal positions featuring varying distances, so that as > the first-person listener virtually moves through the virtual > environment, auditory parallax is preserved. > > Oh, and whilst I'm writing to Santa, a 'biological motion' module, > that can impart the characteristic locomotion cues to a given source - > complete with optional gravity, friction, mass parameters. > > And I want that by the 25th, please... > > > Dr. Peter Lennox > Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in > Perception College of Arts University of Derby > > Tel: 01332 593155 > > From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine > Leudar [augustineleu...@gmail.com] > Sent: 11 December 2015 13:10 > To: Surround Sound discussion group > Subject: Re: [Sursound] vertical precendence and summing localisation > (wallis and lee 2015) > > Hi Bo, > I googled "tinting" in relation to this but couldn't find any papers - > could you point me in the direction of these demonstrations/links ? > The thing is virtually all the HRTF info related to vertical > localisation is above 4 khz. The device we made allowed you to move > sounds up and down, and horizontally with a wii controller - it worked > quite well but we did cheat a little by just making sounds more high > pitched when they went upwards as well as convolving them with > directional bands but this wouldn't work with all sounds. > > On 11 December 2015 at 12:54, Bo-Erik Sandholm > wrote: > > > I just want to say that when I read Joseph's mail I feel like > > christmas > has > > come early this year :-) > > > > I have been
Re: [Sursound] vertical precendence and summing localisation (wallis and lee 2015)
A reason for 'tinting' on the encode side might be this: Sometimes, when synthesing a 3-d soundscape, I find it useful to pan decorrelated reverberant material upwards - this gives a sense of upward-spaciousness, and can help with clariy and intelligibility of sources (kind of directional release from masking) - it's also handy when using reverb to simulate distant sources. Tinting on the decode side might interfere with that, whereas doing it on the encode side gives the flexibility to choose. There's another thing - dynamic panning in trajectories overhead - 'tinting' would allow a slight phasy effect to interact with a doppler effect to emphasise that passing overhead sensation - and intuitively, it makes sense to combine these parameters in a single plugin. I quite like the idea of dedicated dynamic overhead panners... But then I quite like the idea of "straight line panners"... which could actually incorporate parameters for object velocity and distance, utilising amplitude, EQ and dry/reverb, all in one plugin. And I fancy the idea of 'flocking, chasing and scattering' panners and 'self motion panners' - that can be loaded up with a bunch of sources with nominal positions featuring varying distances, so that as the first-person listener virtually moves through the virtual environment, auditory parallax is preserved. Oh, and whilst I'm writing to Santa, a 'biological motion' module, that can impart the characteristic locomotion cues to a given source - complete with optional gravity, friction, mass parameters. And I want that by the 25th, please... Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine Leudar [augustineleu...@gmail.com] Sent: 11 December 2015 13:10 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] vertical precendence and summing localisation (wallis and lee 2015) Hi Bo, I googled "tinting" in relation to this but couldn't find any papers - could you point me in the direction of these demonstrations/links ? The thing is virtually all the HRTF info related to vertical localisation is above 4 khz. The device we made allowed you to move sounds up and down, and horizontally with a wii controller - it worked quite well but we did cheat a little by just making sounds more high pitched when they went upwards as well as convolving them with directional bands but this wouldn't work with all sounds. On 11 December 2015 at 12:54, Bo-Erik Sandholm wrote: > I just want to say that when I read Joseph's mail I feel like christmas has > come early this year :-) > > I have been thinking about headtracked binaural listening for a couple of > years and discussing it here and in other forums. > > The goal is to make it possible to listen to ambisonics first order with > earphones with head tracking usen open source programs and procedures. > > > I do not think we should wait until it is possible to create a individual > HRTF for a everey day nontechnical person. > > This is avaliable: >Software and hardware to do it with software written by > http://www.matthiaskronlachner.com/?p=2015 or the > Ambiexplorer on the phone with the same effort to build the head tracker > bu also t adding a blutooth transmitterand and using another firmware. > > > I have been thinking of taking another way to the goal. > > What I have been thinking of is a tinted head tracking binaural decoder (I > did not know the principle had a name) > > My take on the decoder is that it > - below ~ 4kHz it should use standard HRTF decoding and have a few > profiles selectable on the width of the head, > ignoring individual ear shape effects above 4kHz. > >- tinting used to improve the height perception in binaural decoding, > tinting subsituting for HRTF above 4kHz for height. > tinting has shown it is possible to add height information to > Stereo, This has been demonstrated. > > - I want the shoulder reflections to be taken in to account, I belive > the varying impact of a comb filter effect of the shoulder reflection is > VERY important. > - the software should be controlled by parameters for head > tilt related to shoulders and head versus body turning > - maybe also the normal distance from the ears to the > shoulders, but I do not think this is very important as we adjust to > clothes on shoulders very easily. > > I belive we should take inspiration from UNIX principles when creating the > software, that is to use a chain of software that each does one thing well > and do not have to be rewritten
Re: [Sursound] vertical precendence and summing localisation (wallis and lee 2015)
Well, intuitively, things do get louder as they near the ground, as they transit from being monopoles to 'hemipoles' (made that word up, but you know what I mean) and I wonder if this is frequency-dependent, so that they become 'bassier' as they near the ground (same principle as putting the subs on the floor to get a 3db lift). Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine Leudar Sent: 10 December 2015 16:05 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] vertical precendence and summing localisation (wallis and lee 2015) I ended up making one one ! well sort of - I added the ascending frequency notches/bumps/filters to the ICST panners etc in a max patch to make things sound like they were "higher" when panned upwards - of course the same problem that everyone has their own personal hrtf was encountered. It certainly worked but so did end making things slightly quieter as they got higher and increasingly higher in pitch. I cant help thinking of the way looney tunes cartoons intuitively picked up on this when making their sound effects(when roadrunner falls of a cliff a sound goes down - when he is blown into the sky a noise goes higher in pitch) . Intuitive I guess but its nice to see some of the science behind it . On 10 December 2015 at 15:59, Peter Lennox wrote: > It does imply that an ambisonic panner plugin that incorporates > spectral manipulation would be more efficacious > > Dr. Peter Lennox > Senior Lecturer in Perception > College of Arts > University of Derby, UK > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk > t: 01332 593155 > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox > > > -Original Message- > From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of > Augustine Leudar > Sent: 10 December 2015 15:57 > To: Surround Sound discussion group > Subject: Re: [Sursound] vertical precendence and summing localisation > (wallis and lee 2015) > > that's the one . There was a few others as well though - including a > couple of papers by the US militaryif I remember rightly. its > been a long time. > > On 10 December 2015 at 15:50, Peter Lennox wrote: > > > That was what the paper by Wallis and Lee was talking about, I think > > - Blauert's 'directional bands' > > > > Dr. Peter Lennox > > Senior Lecturer in Perception > > College of Arts > > University of Derby, UK > > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk > > t: 01332 593155 > > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox > > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of > > Augustine Leudar > > Sent: 10 December 2015 15:42 > > To: Surround Sound discussion group > > Subject: Re: [Sursound] vertical precendence and summing > > localisation (wallis and lee 2015) > > > > It was the subject of my masters thesis, or one of them... If I > > remember rightly there is a migrating frequency notch/peak above 10 > > khz > that changes > > according to the height of the sound sources ( ie it migrates upwards > in > > frequency if the sound is higher) . This frequency notch/peak > > (direction dependent filtering) is dictated by the angle of > > incidence of a sound reflecting off the pinnae into the ear canal. > > > > On 10 December 2015 at 13:56, Peter Lennox wrote: > > > > > Thanks for that - having quickly dashed through it, it does seem > > > that, with a fadein/out of 1s, that there are no onset transients > > > to speak of and so I would expect precedence effects to be largely > > > neutralised, leaving the primary cues for location to be spectral > > > cues - but in that case, I wasn't sure about the possible benefits > > > of interchannel > > time differences... > > > > > > Dr. Peter Lennox > > > Senior Lecturer in Perception > > > College of Arts > > > University of Derby, UK > > > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk > > > t: 01332 593155 > > > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox > > > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of > > > Jörn Nettingsmeier > &
Re: [Sursound] vertical precedence and summing localisation (wallis and lee 2015)
Of course, the paradigm that excludes head-tilt - necessary to control for experimental variables, does mean that the experiment is not representative (what some people refer to as 'ecological validity') of real-world localisation. Given that, when I look around the lecture theatre, 40%+ have, at any one time, some head tilting, and many move their heads (apart from the ones that are slumped forward on their chests), the "median plane" should not be conflated with "vertical"...:-) Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Hyunkook Lee Sent: 10 December 2015 15:49 To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: Re: [Sursound] vertical precedence and summing localisation (wallis and lee 2015) On Thu Dec 10 07:26:49 EST 2015, Peter Lennox wrote: > Notably, Shinn-Cunningham also describes the disproportionate > weighting of onsets in precedence effects : " Perceptually, judgments > of the direction of a sound source depend strongly on spatial > information in the onset of sound and relatively weakly on spatial > information in later-arriving portions of sound (e.g., see Brown and Stecker > 2010)" - whereas > in your tests, the onset transients were attenuated - is > that right? Yes, we used continuous pink noise, and it is true that in the horizontal sense, onset transient is known to be an essential factors for triggering the precedence effect. But most of the studies reporting this used pure tones (click train vs steady state). Of course steady state pure tones are hard to localise in rooms, but noise is not steady state! Like Hartmann (1993) claimed, noise has lots of random fluctuations, which can be described as a series of small transients that cause interaural time differences themselves, thus potentially triggering the precedence effect. In fact, there are several studies (Tobias and Zerlin [1959] and Perrott and Baars [1974]) showing that for noise sources, ongoing cues become more effective for localisation than the onset transient as the duration of the signal increase. Additionally, the musical sources we have tested for vertical delay included transient sources like conga, bongo, castanet, acoustic guitar, speech, etc. but the precedence effect did not work for any of these sources with time delay only, meaning that the delayed signal still required a certain amount of level reduction around 7 dB to have localisation at the perceived position of the primary source. This was also the case for our recent experiments using noise burst stimuli (1ms onset). This result will be published soon. Cheers, Hyunkook = Dr Hyunkook Lee, BMus(Tonmeister), PhD, MAES, FHEA Senior Lecturer in Music Technology Leader of the Applied Psychoacoustics Laboratory (APL) http://www.hud.ac.uk/research/researchcentres/mtprg/projects/apl/ School of Computing and Engineering University of Huddersfield Huddersfield HD1 3DH United Kingdom Phone: +44 (0)1484 471893 Email: h@hud.ac.uk Office: CE 2 /14a University of Huddersfield inspiring tomorrow's professionals. [http://marketing.hud.ac.uk/_HOSTED/EmailSig2014/EmailSigFooter.jpg] This transmission is confidential and may be legally privileged. If you receive it in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and remove it from your system. If the content of this e-mail does not relate to the business of the University of Huddersfield, then we do not endorse it and will accept no liability. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] vertical precendence and summing localisation (wallis and lee 2015)
It does imply that an ambisonic panner plugin that incorporates spectral manipulation would be more efficacious Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine Leudar Sent: 10 December 2015 15:57 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] vertical precendence and summing localisation (wallis and lee 2015) that's the one . There was a few others as well though - including a couple of papers by the US militaryif I remember rightly. its been a long time. On 10 December 2015 at 15:50, Peter Lennox wrote: > That was what the paper by Wallis and Lee was talking about, I think - > Blauert's 'directional bands' > > Dr. Peter Lennox > Senior Lecturer in Perception > College of Arts > University of Derby, UK > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk > t: 01332 593155 > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox > > > -Original Message- > From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of > Augustine Leudar > Sent: 10 December 2015 15:42 > To: Surround Sound discussion group > Subject: Re: [Sursound] vertical precendence and summing localisation > (wallis and lee 2015) > > It was the subject of my masters thesis, or one of them... If I > remember rightly there is a migrating frequency notch/peak above 10 khz that > changes > according to the height of the sound sources( ie it migrates upwards in > frequency if the sound is higher) . This frequency notch/peak > (direction dependent filtering) is dictated by the angle of incidence > of a sound reflecting off the pinnae into the ear canal. > > On 10 December 2015 at 13:56, Peter Lennox wrote: > > > Thanks for that - having quickly dashed through it, it does seem > > that, with a fadein/out of 1s, that there are no onset transients to > > speak of and so I would expect precedence effects to be largely > > neutralised, leaving the primary cues for location to be spectral > > cues - but in that case, I wasn't sure about the possible benefits > > of interchannel > time differences... > > > > Dr. Peter Lennox > > Senior Lecturer in Perception > > College of Arts > > University of Derby, UK > > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk > > t: 01332 593155 > > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox > > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of > > Jörn Nettingsmeier > > Sent: 10 December 2015 12:56 > > To: sursound@music.vt.edu > > Subject: Re: [Sursound] vertical precendence and summing > > localisation (wallis and lee 2015) > > > > On 12/09/2015 03:00 PM, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote: > > > > > i've attached the paper, since it is open access. > > > > well, i meant to, but apparently the attachment got eaten. here it is: > > http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=18040 > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Jörn Nettingsmeier > > Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487 > > > > Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio) Tonmeister VDT > > > > http://stackingdwarves.net > > > > ___ > > Sursound mailing list > > Sursound@music.vt.edu > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > > here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > > > The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and > > reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was > > sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. > > > > Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk > > For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk > > All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ > > ___ > > Sursound mailing list > > Sursound@music.vt.edu > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > > here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > > > > > -- > www.augustineleudar.com > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was > scrubbed... > URL: < > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2015121 > 0/51b9a62e/attachment.html >
Re: [Sursound] vertical precedence and summing localisation (wallis and lee 2015)
That raises the interesting question of 'how transient is a transient' to be effective in respect of precedence effects? - my guess would be that the figure would not be the same in the median and azimuthal planes. With you noise bursts and 'proper' instruments, was the 7dB constant, or did it vary with stimulus characteristics? Regards ppl Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Hyunkook Lee Sent: 10 December 2015 15:49 To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: Re: [Sursound] vertical precedence and summing localisation (wallis and lee 2015) On Thu Dec 10 07:26:49 EST 2015, Peter Lennox wrote: > Notably, Shinn-Cunningham also describes the disproportionate > weighting of onsets in precedence effects : " Perceptually, judgments > of the direction of a sound source depend strongly on spatial > information in the onset of sound and relatively weakly on spatial > information in later-arriving portions of sound (e.g., see Brown and Stecker > 2010)" - whereas > in your tests, the onset transients were attenuated - is > that right? Yes, we used continuous pink noise, and it is true that in the horizontal sense, onset transient is known to be an essential factors for triggering the precedence effect. But most of the studies reporting this used pure tones (click train vs steady state). Of course steady state pure tones are hard to localise in rooms, but noise is not steady state! Like Hartmann (1993) claimed, noise has lots of random fluctuations, which can be described as a series of small transients that cause interaural time differences themselves, thus potentially triggering the precedence effect. In fact, there are several studies (Tobias and Zerlin [1959] and Perrott and Baars [1974]) showing that for noise sources, ongoing cues become more effective for localisation than the onset transient as the duration of the signal increase. Additionally, the musical sources we have tested for vertical delay included transient sources like conga, bongo, castanet, acoustic guitar, speech, etc. but the precedence effect did not work for any of these sources with time delay only, meaning that the delayed signal still required a certain amount of level reduction around 7 dB to have localisation at the perceived position of the primary source. This was also the case for our recent experiments using noise burst stimuli (1ms onset). This result will be published soon. Cheers, Hyunkook = Dr Hyunkook Lee, BMus(Tonmeister), PhD, MAES, FHEA Senior Lecturer in Music Technology Leader of the Applied Psychoacoustics Laboratory (APL) http://www.hud.ac.uk/research/researchcentres/mtprg/projects/apl/ School of Computing and Engineering University of Huddersfield Huddersfield HD1 3DH United Kingdom Phone: +44 (0)1484 471893 Email: h@hud.ac.uk Office: CE 2 /14a University of Huddersfield inspiring tomorrow's professionals. [http://marketing.hud.ac.uk/_HOSTED/EmailSig2014/EmailSigFooter.jpg] This transmission is confidential and may be legally privileged. If you receive it in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and remove it from your system. If the content of this e-mail does not relate to the business of the University of Huddersfield, then we do not endorse it and will accept no liability. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] vertical precendence and summing localisation (wallis and lee 2015)
That was what the paper by Wallis and Lee was talking about, I think - Blauert's 'directional bands' Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine Leudar Sent: 10 December 2015 15:42 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] vertical precendence and summing localisation (wallis and lee 2015) It was the subject of my masters thesis, or one of them... If I remember rightly there is a migrating frequency notch/peak above 10 khz that changes according to the height of the sound sources( ie it migrates upwards in frequency if the sound is higher) . This frequency notch/peak (direction dependent filtering) is dictated by the angle of incidence of a sound reflecting off the pinnae into the ear canal. On 10 December 2015 at 13:56, Peter Lennox wrote: > Thanks for that - having quickly dashed through it, it does seem that, > with a fadein/out of 1s, that there are no onset transients to speak > of and so I would expect precedence effects to be largely neutralised, > leaving the primary cues for location to be spectral cues - but in > that case, I wasn't sure about the possible benefits of interchannel time > differences... > > Dr. Peter Lennox > Senior Lecturer in Perception > College of Arts > University of Derby, UK > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk > t: 01332 593155 > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox > > > -Original Message- > From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of > Jörn Nettingsmeier > Sent: 10 December 2015 12:56 > To: sursound@music.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [Sursound] vertical precendence and summing localisation > (wallis and lee 2015) > > On 12/09/2015 03:00 PM, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote: > > > i've attached the paper, since it is open access. > > well, i meant to, but apparently the attachment got eaten. here it is: > http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=18040 > > > > > -- > Jörn Nettingsmeier > Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487 > > Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio) Tonmeister VDT > > http://stackingdwarves.net > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and > reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was > sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. > > Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk > For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk > All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > -- www.augustineleudar.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20151210/51b9a62e/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] vertical precedence and summing localisation (wallis and lee 2015)
Hi - it's one of the reasons I forbid my students from using multichannel mono, unless they have highly articulate reasons for doing so. Basically, multichannel mono (eg announcements coming over a load of ceiling speakers) always sounds like it comes from the nearest speaker, since that's the earliest arriving example. The rest are just 'reflections' - or at least, are treated as such by human precedence effects. Given that there's an interaction between amplitude and time, (Time-Intensity_Trading), you'd have to do quite a bit with amplitude to persuade the cognitive mechanisms responsible for precedence effects to relinquish the conclusion that the first-arriving sound is the actual source. Of course, it's the principle used in delay towers at big stadium events - and it's also a handy way to make 1st order ambisonics sound like higher order (i.e with fewer reversals or image skewing) when used in a large space (material dependent, of course) Cheers ppl Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine Leudar Sent: 10 December 2015 15:29 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] vertical precedence and summing localisation (wallis and lee 2015) Gary Kendall gave us a fantastic demo of this phenomena at Sarc when I was doing my masters. He sat us down in a circle within in a massive ring of speakers. There were sound effects all over the place but there was a narration over the top. I was completely astonished when I found out that the narration was coming out of all speakers at the same time. Everyone thought the speaker nearest to them was the only one the narration was coming out of. Ive since used the effect in a sound installation. I'm trying to think what sort of situation where such a scenario might naturally occur and why our brain has evolved to do this ? Im guessing its something to do with cancelling early reflections so we can more precisely locate a threat ? On 10 December 2015 at 12:26, Peter Lennox wrote: > Thanks - that's clarified things. -I've always taken precedence to be > the "shift towards" rather than the measure that stipulates " > localised at the exact direction of the leading sound in the presence of > lagging sound (e.g. > full phantom image shift to one loudspeaker position), if the delay > time exceeds a certain limit" - hence my confusion about the apparent > contradiction. > In this, I've followed Litovsky et al (abstract below) and Barbara > Shinn-Cunningham: " Definition: The precedence effect is a > well-studied phenomenon in spatial hearing that is related to how we > localize sounds accurately in everyday settings. Specifically, when > two sound sources reach a listener close together in time, listeners often > hear a single "fused" > image whose perceived direction is near the location of the > first-arriving sound" (Encyclopedia of Computational Neuroscience DOI > 10.1007/978-1-4614-7320-6_101-5) Notably, Shinn-Cunningham also > describes the disproportionate weighting of onsets in precedence > effects : " Perceptually, judgments of the direction of a sound source > depend strongly on spatial information in the onset of sound and > relatively weakly on spatial information in later-arriving portions of > sound (e.g., see Brown and Stecker 2010)" - whereas in your tests, > the onset transients were attenuated - is that right? > cheers > > > The precedence effect > Ruth Y. Litovskya) and H. Steven Colburn Hearing Research Center and > Department of Biomedical Engineering, Boston University, Boston, > Massachusetts 02215 William A. Yost and Sandra J. Guzman Parmly > Hearing Institute, Loyola University Chicago, Chicago, Illinois > 60201 > ~Received 20 April 1998; revised 9 April 1999; accepted 23 June 1999 > In a reverberant environment, sounds reach the ears through several paths. > Although the direct > sound is followed by multiple reflections, which would be audible in > isolation, the first-arriving wavefront dominates many aspects of > perception. The ''precedence effect'' > refers to a group of > phenomena that are thought to be involved in resolving competition for > perception and localization between a direct sound and a reflection. > This article is divided into five major sections. First, it begins > with a review of recent work on psychoacoustics, which divides the > phenomena into measurements of fusion, localization dominance, and > discrimination suppression. Second, buildup o
Re: [Sursound] vertical precendence and summing localisation (wallis and lee 2015)
Thanks for that - having quickly dashed through it, it does seem that, with a fadein/out of 1s, that there are no onset transients to speak of and so I would expect precedence effects to be largely neutralised, leaving the primary cues for location to be spectral cues - but in that case, I wasn't sure about the possible benefits of interchannel time differences... Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jörn Nettingsmeier Sent: 10 December 2015 12:56 To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: Re: [Sursound] vertical precendence and summing localisation (wallis and lee 2015) On 12/09/2015 03:00 PM, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote: > i've attached the paper, since it is open access. well, i meant to, but apparently the attachment got eaten. here it is: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=18040 -- Jörn Nettingsmeier Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487 Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio) Tonmeister VDT http://stackingdwarves.net ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] vertical precedence and summing localisation (wallis and lee 2015)
Thanks - that's clarified things. -I've always taken precedence to be the "shift towards" rather than the measure that stipulates " localised at the exact direction of the leading sound in the presence of lagging sound (e.g. full phantom image shift to one loudspeaker position), if the delay time exceeds a certain limit" - hence my confusion about the apparent contradiction. In this, I've followed Litovsky et al (abstract below) and Barbara Shinn-Cunningham: " Definition: The precedence effect is a well-studied phenomenon in spatial hearing that is related to how we localize sounds accurately in everyday settings. Specifically, when two sound sources reach a listener close together in time, listeners often hear a single "fused" image whose perceived direction is near the location of the first-arriving sound" (Encyclopedia of Computational Neuroscience DOI 10.1007/978-1-4614-7320-6_101-5) Notably, Shinn-Cunningham also describes the disproportionate weighting of onsets in precedence effects : " Perceptually, judgments of the direction of a sound source depend strongly on spatial information in the onset of sound and relatively weakly on spatial information in later-arriving portions of sound (e.g., see Brown and Stecker 2010)" - whereas in your tests, the onset transients were attenuated - is that right? cheers The precedence effect Ruth Y. Litovskya) and H. Steven Colburn Hearing Research Center and Department of Biomedical Engineering, Boston University, Boston, Massachusetts 02215 William A. Yost and Sandra J. Guzman Parmly Hearing Institute, Loyola University Chicago, Chicago, Illinois 60201 ~Received 20 April 1998; revised 9 April 1999; accepted 23 June 1999 In a reverberant environment, sounds reach the ears through several paths. Although the direct sound is followed by multiple reflections, which would be audible in isolation, the first-arriving wavefront dominates many aspects of perception. The ''precedence effect'' refers to a group of phenomena that are thought to be involved in resolving competition for perception and localization between a direct sound and a reflection. This article is divided into five major sections. First, it begins with a review of recent work on psychoacoustics, which divides the phenomena into measurements of fusion, localization dominance, and discrimination suppression. Second, buildup of precedence and breakdown of precedence are discussed. Third measurements in several animal species, developmental changes in humans, and animal studies are described. Fourth, recent physiological measurements that might be helpful in providing a fuller understanding of precedence effects are reviewed. Fifth, a number of psychophysical models are described which illustrate fundamentally different approaches and have distinct advantages and disadvantages. The purpose of this review is to provide a framework within which to describe the effects of precedence and to help in the integration of data from both psychophysical and physiological experiments. It is probably only through the combined efforts of these fields that a full theory of precedence will evolve and useful models will be developed. Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Hyunkook Lee Sent: 10 December 2015 00:00 To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: Re: [Sursound] vertical precedence and summing localisation (wallis and lee 2015) Hello everyone, I am writing in response to the question raised regarding our recent JAES paper on vertical precedence effect (Wallis and Lee). Firstly, on the debate about whether the precedence effect works vertically or not, we first need to clarify the original definition of the precedence effect. In a strict sense, the precedence effect means that sound is localised at the exact direction of the leading sound in the presence of lagging sound (e.g. full phantom image shift to one loudspeaker position), if the delay time exceeds a certain limit (e.g. 1ms). Here the lagging sound is not required to be reduced in level (e.g.the leading and lagging sounds have the same level. The Haas effect suggest lagging sound could even be louder than leading sound within a certain delay range, but this is only the case for horizontal stereo). As Peter initially pointed out in this discussion, Litovsky et al 1997 claim that the precedence effect is still valid in the median plane, however, what they investigated was actually "localisation dominance" rather than the strict precedence effect. That is, they concluded that the precedence eff ect was still evident when the perceived sound image was shifte
Re: [Sursound] vertical precendence and summing localisation (wallis and lee 2015)
Ah, that's becoming clearer, thanks. In respect of trying to measure precedence, then naturally, I'd say that without transients, one has something which would not appeal well to precedence effects anyway - (in the Franssen effect, which uses sinewaves as stimuli, I believe, it was shown that no re-localisation occurred even when panned through 180 degrees - until a transient is put in). But in respect of summing localisation (which, strictly, comes under the heading of Precedence effects) - I still think you need the transient content, otherwise, what is it that one is summing? - noise with a temporal offset is becoming decorrelated (I'm not talking about how it might generate lower interaural cross-correlation, obviously) but essentially has no source direction because it's not a source, if you see what I mean I'll look the paper up cheers Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jörn Nettingsmeier Sent: 09 December 2015 14:00 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: [Sursound] vertical precendence and summing localisation (wallis and lee 2015) On 12/08/2015 09:07 PM, Peter Lennox wrote: > no -percedence effects include a range of phenomena. But precedence in > the median plane isn't quite as effective as in the azimuthal plane, > according to Litovsky, Rakerd, Hartmann et al, but is still quite > effective and so not negligible. So I'd like to understand what Lee > (Huddersfield) was saying, to compare. i've attached the paper, since it is open access. i guess i misrepresented it a bit, because i was being sloppy about distinguishing between precedence effect and summing localisation. however, wallis and lee conclude: "Additionally, no evidence could be found to support the operation of the precedence effect in median plane stereophony. In the present study the only occasions whereby stimuli were localized at the position of the ear- lier emitting loudspeaker were due to the pitch height ef- fect. There was also no consistent effect of time panning observed, with localization judgments for the broadband source becoming more biased towards the upper loud- speaker as ICTD increased, as opposed to the lower." [the upper speaker was always lagging behind the lower in this experiment.] in comparing the results with litovsky et al, it should be pointed out that while both were conducted under anechoic conditions, the stimuli used by wallis and lee were long noise snippets with 1s fade-ins and fade-outs rather than clicks, with no transient information at all (which seem designed to test the presence of summing localisation), so i guess they are not in direct contradiction. it just shows that the musical reality will be somewhere in between... > Certainly, in respect of producing phantom imagery in the vertical, > I've found this to be quite effective (though often slightly more > vague than in horizontal) which would explain why periphonic > ambisonics works at all - and this seems to be a related issue to the > precedence one i found that vbap/stereophonic vertical localisation is excellent on speaker positions (because it gets the spectral cues right), and unusable anywhere else. 3rd-order ambisonic vertical localisation seems uniformly so-so throughout the elevation range, which to me is preferrable... -- Jörn Nettingsmeier Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487 Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio) Tonmeister VDT http://stackingdwarves.net -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 18040.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 299653 bytes Desc: not available URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20151209/d9d9ec4c/attachment.pdf> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] OZO? vertical precedence
no -percedence effects include a range of phenomena. But precedence in the median plane isn't quite as effective as in the azimuthal plane, according to Litovsky, Rakerd, Hartmann et al, but is still quite effective and so not negligible. So I'd like to understand what Lee (Huddersfield) was saying, to compare. Certainly, in respect of producing phantom imagery in the vertical, I've found this to be quite effective (though often slightly more vague than in horizontal) which would explain why periphonic ambisonics works at all - and this seems to be a related issue to the precedence one cheers ppl Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine Leudar [augustineleu...@gmail.com] Sent: 08 December 2015 19:57 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] OZO? vertical precedence Very interesting paper. I would love to read it properly - can you just tell me - does precedence work as well vertically as it does horizontally ? On 8 December 2015 at 13:30, Jörn Nettingsmeier < netti...@stackingdwarves.net> wrote: > On 12/08/2015 01:47 PM, Peter Lennox wrote: > >> Couldn't find the full paper again - but there's this one in full: >> https://www.pa.msu.edu/acoustics/litovsky.pdf >> >> The abstract ends "...models that attribute the precedecence effect >> entirely to processes that involve binaural differences are no longer >> viable" >> >> The researchers are known as excellent contributors to the corpus of >> psychophysics (Ruth Litovsky did the defninitive review of precedence >> effects). >> >> So I would be interested to examine the differences in their findings and >> Huddersfield's >> > > thanks, very interesting! a quick glance makes me very curious, i'm > looking forward to reading this tonight. > > > > -- > Jörn Nettingsmeier > Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487 > > Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio) > Tonmeister VDT > > http://stackingdwarves.net > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > -- www.augustineleudar.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20151208/2be0465c/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] OZO? vertical precedence
Couldn't find the full paper again - but there's this one in full:
https://www.pa.msu.edu/acoustics/litovsky.pdf
The abstract ends "...models that attribute the precedecence effect entirely to
processes that involve binaural differences are no longer viable"
The researchers are known as excellent contributors to the corpus of
psychophysics (Ruth Litovsky did the defninitive review of precedence effects).
So I would be interested to examine the differences in their findings and
Huddersfield's
Cheers
Ppl
Dr. Peter Lennox
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts
University of Derby, UK
e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
t: 01332 593155
https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
-Original Message-
From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jörn
Nettingsmeier
Sent: 08 December 2015 10:19
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] OZO? vertical precedence
On 12/07/2015 02:31 PM, Peter Lennox wrote:
> But see: Localization dominance in the median-sagittal plane: Effect
> of stimulus duration Roberto M. Dizon and Ruth Y. Litovsky Received
> 19 June 2003; accepted for publication 22 March 2004
interesting!
i wonder:
> Lead-lag pairs of noise
> bursts were presented from locations spaced in 15°
> increments in the frontal, median-sagittal plane, with a 2-ms
> delay in their onsets, for source durations of 1, 10, 25, and 50-ms.
does this mean they used the same noise source, where one channel was actually
delayed, or the same noise source and one channel was just faded up later
("onset delay" could be read this way), or different noise sources altogether?
in order to investigate "phantom source" mechanisms, it should be the same
noise source, delayed, which is likely what they did, but i can't check this
paper unfortunately.
> Intermixed with these trials were single-speaker trials, in
> which lead and lag were summed and presented from one speaker.
> Listeners identified the speaker that was nearest to the perceived
> source location.
so this is a simple "either/or" decision, not a continuum of possible phantom
source locations. or put differently: not summing localisation, but something
like a precendence effect. ok.
i could hypothesize that the initial phase of 2ms from one speaker only is
enough information to localize the source, and that the lagging signal is not
contributing any more cues. if so, that would not really contradict lee et al.
they go on to say
> With single-speaker stimuli, localization
> improves as signal duration is increased.
the single speaker case is not relevant to the discussion really (although it's
a nice touch to add this to the experiment). it just means that if get more
time to pinpoint a single source, localisation performance improves. very well.
but this could be read as implying "in two speaker stimuli, there was _no_
improvement of localisation as the signal duration is increased".
which seems to suggest that indeed, the localisation process is over and done
with during the initial 2ms of only a single speaker playing.
to test this, one would need to use a coherent signal in both speakers that
starts at the same time, but one is delayed relative to the other.
maybe by delaying a noise source and fading it in at the same time in both
speakers. otherwise, we're really only looking at onset transients.
> Furthermore,
> evidence of elevation compression was found with a dependence on
> duration. With lead-lag pairs, localization dominance occurs in the
> median plane, and becomes more robust with increased signal duration.
this general statement would contradict my interpretation above. is this paper
available somewhere?
this one however leaves me scratching my head:
> These results suggest that accurate localization of a co-located
> lead-lag pair is necessary for localization dominance to occur when
> the lag is spatially separated from the lead.
i can't imagine what this means.
--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487
Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio) Tonmeister VDT
http://stackingdwarves.net
___
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Re: [Sursound] OZO? vertical precedence
Ah! Thanks - you've told me more than or IT dept. did (though I suppose they may be busy) Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Paul Hodges Sent: 08 December 2015 12:24 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] OZO? vertical precedence --On 08 December 2015 10:22 + Peter Lennox wrote: > having problems with our internet access at the moment... (It's because of a severe DDoS on Janet, the UK universities network.) Paul -- Paul Hodges ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] OZO? vertical precedence
I'll dig it out - having problems with our internet access at the moment...
Dr. Peter Lennox
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts
University of Derby, UK
e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
t: 01332 593155
https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox
-Original Message-
From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jörn
Nettingsmeier
Sent: 08 December 2015 10:19
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] OZO? vertical precedence
On 12/07/2015 02:31 PM, Peter Lennox wrote:
> But see: Localization dominance in the median-sagittal plane: Effect
> of stimulus duration Roberto M. Dizon and Ruth Y. Litovsky Received
> 19 June 2003; accepted for publication 22 March 2004
interesting!
i wonder:
> Lead-lag pairs of noise
> bursts were presented from locations spaced in 15°
> increments in the frontal, median-sagittal plane, with a 2-ms
> delay in their onsets, for source durations of 1, 10, 25, and 50-ms.
does this mean they used the same noise source, where one channel was actually
delayed, or the same noise source and one channel was just faded up later
("onset delay" could be read this way), or different noise sources altogether?
in order to investigate "phantom source" mechanisms, it should be the same
noise source, delayed, which is likely what they did, but i can't check this
paper unfortunately.
> Intermixed with these trials were single-speaker trials, in
> which lead and lag were summed and presented from one speaker.
> Listeners identified the speaker that was nearest to the perceived
> source location.
so this is a simple "either/or" decision, not a continuum of possible phantom
source locations. or put differently: not summing localisation, but something
like a precendence effect. ok.
i could hypothesize that the initial phase of 2ms from one speaker only is
enough information to localize the source, and that the lagging signal is not
contributing any more cues. if so, that would not really contradict lee et al.
they go on to say
> With single-speaker stimuli, localization
> improves as signal duration is increased.
the single speaker case is not relevant to the discussion really (although it's
a nice touch to add this to the experiment). it just means that if get more
time to pinpoint a single source, localisation performance improves. very well.
but this could be read as implying "in two speaker stimuli, there was _no_
improvement of localisation as the signal duration is increased".
which seems to suggest that indeed, the localisation process is over and done
with during the initial 2ms of only a single speaker playing.
to test this, one would need to use a coherent signal in both speakers that
starts at the same time, but one is delayed relative to the other.
maybe by delaying a noise source and fading it in at the same time in both
speakers. otherwise, we're really only looking at onset transients.
> Furthermore,
> evidence of elevation compression was found with a dependence on
> duration. With lead-lag pairs, localization dominance occurs in the
> median plane, and becomes more robust with increased signal duration.
this general statement would contradict my interpretation above. is this paper
available somewhere?
this one however leaves me scratching my head:
> These results suggest that accurate localization of a co-located
> lead-lag pair is necessary for localization dominance to occur when
> the lag is spatially separated from the lead.
i can't imagine what this means.
--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487
Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio) Tonmeister VDT
http://stackingdwarves.net
___
Sursound mailing list
Sursound@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit
account or options, view archives and so on.
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right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error,
please select unsubscribe.
Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk
For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk
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account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] OZO?
actually, as the burner is only used intermittently, in between it's quite quiet - and as balloons aren't used on excessively windy days (and the balloon floats along with the wind) wind noise is minimised too. I would think the wind noise problems would me much worse for the parachute example, not to mention the swearing (if the recordist is not an experienced parachutist) Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Dave Malham [dave.mal...@york.ac.uk] Sent: 07 December 2015 15:25 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] OZO? Unfortunately, hot air balloons tend to have soundfields dominated by loud propane flames just above head height. Gliders, especially microlight ones, are quieter - or, at least, the wind noises are more evenly distributed. Can't answer about parachutes - should be better but haven't done that (yet) Dave On 7 December 2015 at 13:58, umashankar manthravadi wrote: > Hot air balloons ! > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > > > From: Peter Lennox > Sent: Monday, December 7, 2015 7:22 PM > To: Surround Sound discussion group > Subject: Re: [Sursound] OZO? > > > If you look at early experiements to investigate hearing in 'freefield' > conditions, you can see pictures of scientists sitting atop poles on the > roof of the building. > > And if you've ever tried such a thing, the world sounds very different > without (or at least, with diminished) ground reflections > > Dr. Peter Lennox > Senior Lecturer in Perception > College of Arts > University of Derby, UK > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk > t: 01332 593155 > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox > > > -Original Message- > From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Steven > Boardman > Sent: 07 December 2015 13:49 > To: Surround Sound discussion group > Subject: Re: [Sursound] OZO? > > Or the N.A.S.A Orbitron. What fun... > On 7 Dec 2015 1:21 pm, "David Pickett" wrote: > > > At 13:11 07-12-15, Steven Boardman wrote: > > >Our heads don't pivot at our ears, or roll perfectly on the joint. > > >Our > > ears > > >aren't that level either. Which only adds to the differences. Mine > > >are quite visibily not level. With both pinar of a different size and > shape. > > >Off piste I know but the filtering effect of the ears and body, when > > >one only moves ones head up and down, is also quite substantial. When > > >it is done in all planes its a lot more. > > > > Do you think there is a market for trampolines with built in surround > > systems? Or how about being attached to the walls, ceiling and floor > > with bungees? > > > > Remember: you saw it here first... > > > > David > > > > ___ > > Sursound mailing list > > Sursound@music.vt.edu > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > > here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20151207/1103093d/attachment.html > > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and > reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent > to you in error, please select unsubscribe. > > Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk > For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk > All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20151207/f3e93ff9/attachment.html > > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here
Re: [Sursound] OZO?
If you look at early experiements to investigate hearing in 'freefield' conditions, you can see pictures of scientists sitting atop poles on the roof of the building. And if you've ever tried such a thing, the world sounds very different without (or at least, with diminished) ground reflections Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Steven Boardman Sent: 07 December 2015 13:49 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] OZO? Or the N.A.S.A Orbitron. What fun... On 7 Dec 2015 1:21 pm, "David Pickett" wrote: > At 13:11 07-12-15, Steven Boardman wrote: > >Our heads don't pivot at our ears, or roll perfectly on the joint. > >Our > ears > >aren't that level either. Which only adds to the differences. Mine > >are quite visibily not level. With both pinar of a different size and shape. > >Off piste I know but the filtering effect of the ears and body, when > >one only moves ones head up and down, is also quite substantial. When > >it is done in all planes its a lot more. > > Do you think there is a market for trampolines with built in surround > systems? Or how about being attached to the walls, ceiling and floor > with bungees? > > Remember: you saw it here first... > > David > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20151207/1103093d/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] OZO? vertical precedence
But see: Localization dominance in the median-sagittal plane: Effect of stimulus duration Roberto M. Dizon and Ruth Y. Litovsky Received 19 June 2003; accepted for publication 22 March 2004 Localization dominance is an aspect of the precedence effect in which the leading source dominates the perceived location of a simulated echo lagging source. It is known to be robust in the horizontal/azimuthal dimension, where binaural cues dominate localization. However, little is known about localization dominance in conditions that minimize binaural cues, and most models of precedence treat the phenomena as ''belonging'' to the binaural system. Here, localization dominance in the median-sagittal plane was studied where binaural cues are greatly reduced, and monaural spectral/level cues are thought to be the primary cues used for localization. Lead-lag pairs of noise bursts were presented from locations spaced in 15° increments in the frontal, median-sagittal plane, with a 2-ms delay in their onsets, for source durations of 1, 10, 25, and 50-ms. Intermixed with these trials were single-speaker trials, in which lead and lag were summed and presented from one speaker. Listeners identified the speaker that was nearest to the perceived source location. With single-speaker stimuli, localization improves as signal duration is increased. Furthermore, evidence of elevation compression was found with a dependence on duration. With lead-lag pairs, localization dominance occurs in the median plane, and becomes more robust with increased signal duration. These results suggest that accurate localization of a co-located lead-lag pair is necessary for localization dominance to occur when the lag is spatially separated from the lead. © 2004 Acoustical Society of America. @ DOI: 10.1121/1.1738687 # Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jörn Nettingsmeier Sent: 06 December 2015 10:46 To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: Re: [Sursound] OZO? On 12/05/2015 05:26 PM, Stefan Schreiber wrote: > I wrote: "8-channel ... hedgehog", which is/was already some form of > educated guess. > > See: > > http://www.hauptmikrofon.de/HW/TMT2012_3DNaturalRecording_Theile_Witte > k_2012_11.pdf, > > pg. 19. > > This hedgehog layout really fits to the microphone openings of the Ozo > camera... btw, since you're quoting this very interesting article, it has been partly superseded by recent research of lee at al. at huddersfield (see latest JAES), who found that there is _no_ vertical precendence effect and that interchannel time differences in vertically spaced loudspeakers do not contribute to localisation in any way. helmut is aware of this and has presented a much more compact 8-channel mic array at ICSA 2015 in graz, where the top and bottom mics are practically coincident. -- Jörn Nettingsmeier Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487 Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio) Tonmeister VDT http://stackingdwarves.net ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Dolby Atmos audio recording on sale...
Yes, the thinking is that a speaker-layout-agnostic format file can be transmitted and decoded at the client end of things, so it could end up being mono, stereo, surround, surround with height, large-scale surround (eg cinema) and so on, depending on the technical competence of the client machine. Of course, a lot could go wrong... Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine Leudar Sent: 07 December 2015 12:51 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Dolby Atmos audio recording on sale... It has the advantage of being adaptable to speaker arrays with one file - so a bit like ambisonics in that way... On 7 December 2015 at 12:40, Peter Lennox wrote: > On the subject of object-based audio - the £5.5m research project S3A > http://www.s3a-spatialaudio.org/wordpress/ > > Is working on this, and the BBC are very actively pursuing this, so if > might be an idea whose time has finally come > > Dr. Peter Lennox > Senior Lecturer in Perception > College of Arts > University of Derby, UK > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk > t: 01332 593155 > https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox > > -Original Message- > From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of > Augustine Leudar > Sent: 07 December 2015 12:19 > To: Surround Sound discussion group > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Dolby Atmos audio recording on sale... > > these object based systems are very interesting - I cant wait to get > my hands on the software. > > On 7 December 2015 at 11:39, David Pickett wrote: > > > > > http://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/dolby-atmos-taking-music-into-a- > > ne > > w-dimension > > > > Of course, it needs hardware: UKL 350-2500... > > > > As these are recordings from Kings College Chapel, Cambridge, there > > is a chance of something real to listen to. > > > > A four channel surround recording that I made for EMI of the choir > > there over 30 years ago demonstrated the potential for recording > > such acoustics realistically. Will it catch on this time? > > > > David > > > > ___ > > Sursound mailing list > > Sursound@music.vt.edu > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > > here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > > > > > -- > www.augustineleudar.com > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was > scrubbed... > URL: < > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2015120 > 7/c9a3e733/attachment.html > > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and > reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was > sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. > > Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk > For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk > All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > -- www.augustineleudar.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20151207/f1458371/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Dolby Atmos audio recording on sale...
On the subject of object-based audio - the £5.5m research project S3A http://www.s3a-spatialaudio.org/wordpress/ Is working on this, and the BBC are very actively pursuing this, so if might be an idea whose time has finally come Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine Leudar Sent: 07 December 2015 12:19 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Dolby Atmos audio recording on sale... these object based systems are very interesting - I cant wait to get my hands on the software. On 7 December 2015 at 11:39, David Pickett wrote: > > http://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/dolby-atmos-taking-music-into-a-ne > w-dimension > > Of course, it needs hardware: UKL 350-2500... > > As these are recordings from Kings College Chapel, Cambridge, there is > a chance of something real to listen to. > > A four channel surround recording that I made for EMI of the choir > there over 30 years ago demonstrated the potential for recording such > acoustics realistically. Will it catch on this time? > > David > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > -- www.augustineleudar.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20151207/c9a3e733/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Integrex Decoder
go the whole hog and make a valve decoder... ;-) Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Dave Malham [dave.mal...@york.ac.uk] Sent: 10 November 2015 08:49 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: [Sursound] Integrex Decoder Hi Folks, Thanks to those of you that responded to my earlier email. Unfortunately, I'm still trying to sort out what was done to change the parameters to accommodate the changes to UHJ. The main problem is I don't know exactly what the "forward preference" amount was. For instance, the formula for Y' for the 45J setting is 0.132*jsum + 0.798*diff + ( – 0.295*jsum + 0.032*diff) in forward preference mode, with the bracketed term being removed when the "Forward Preference" button is in the 'out' position. As you might guess, I'm trying to make an Integrex emulation. The strange things one does for fun Dave -- As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University. These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University Dave Malham Honorary Fellow, Department of Music The University of York York YO10 5DD UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20151110/ac05804c/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD
or does it bear some relationship to variable order panning (I remember my colleague Bruce Wiggins's work on higher order ambisonic panning for decoding to 5.1)? Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Ronald C.F. Antony [r...@cubiculum.com] Sent: 29 October 2015 17:44 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] SQ QUAD On Oct 29, 2015, at 12:22, Geoffrey Barton wrote: > On Oct 29, 2015, at 04:41, Dave Malham wrote: > >> Going back to this old theme, something which slipped under my radar but >> reappeared when I was re-reading the Integrex decoder articles was >> Michael's throw-away statement on page 3 that "...a fully fledged ambisonic >> 'variable matrix' design is under development for (such) specialist >> applications". Does anyone (Geof Barton, Peter Craven, Peter Carbines, >> Richard lee...) remember this or know anything about it - certainly nothing >> remains in my memory, even if it was there in the first place. > > Certainly. It was called the 'VDP' decoder, 'Variable Directional Preference'. > > Michael and I had great fun with that; it revealed all sorts of detail in > stereo recordings played through it, quite apart from the effect on UHJ. > I believe that, some time after I left the Cybernetics dept, to quote Peter > Fellgett, 'a student destroyed it by connecting 240v into the 5v supply'. Any relation to what Meridian calls “SuperStereo”? ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?
plus, with the large numbers of speakers, it's cheaper and easier to cross over
in the b-format 'pinchpoint' than in the speaker feeds.
ppl
Dr. Peter Lennox
Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts
University of Derby
Tel: 01332 593155
From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Steven Boardman
[boardroomout...@gmail.com]
Sent: 16 October 2015 14:14
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010
speakers?
This is something I have alluded to before.
There is no need to have multiple transducers in the same box with
ambisonics.. In fact it should be more accurate, economical, aesthetic, and
space saving to have each transducer at its own separate point in space.
Tweeters are more directional so more are needed, they are also cheaper.
Going all the way down the frequency range to the least directional and
most expensive, woofers and subs.
Separate decodes could be done for each transducer bandwidth, rotating the
soundfield to align. This would also benefit the transducer crossover
point, as there would be less interference from proximity. It would also
help room response, as crossovers could be tweaked and balanced on the fly.
Which is also alot of fun!
Steve
On 16 Oct 2015 12:47, "Peter Lennox" wrote:
> we used a much cruder version of this back in 2002 - decoding a
> hemispherical 32 speaker array to second order, but crossed over the
> B-format at 90Hz (I think) to a horizontal-only 8-sub array, decoded in 1st
> order. This was on the basis that we couldn't fly the subs, and anyway,
> elevation discernment, being largely due to pinnae affects, was not
> appealed to by the subs anyway. Had to work on the time alignment (the sub
> decoder was analogue, the mid'n'tops 32 speaker array done in software) and
> spatial alignment (rotating the subfield to match t'other, in the b-format
> feed). It worked well, though could have been further refined; it was a
> one-off installation.
> But the principle of using decreasing order with decreasing frequency made
> sense from the point of view of efficient use of transducers.
>
> It made me wonder whether the same principle extends the other way -
> increasing order with increasing frequency, to make up for the deficiencies
> in spatial resolution of lower orders at HF.
> Given that it should now be reasonably 'easy' to align the fields of
> multiple cells - even having differnt numbers of speakers for each
> frequency band, there might be less reason to assume that point source
> speakers are strictly necessary.
> We're still using speakers designed as stereo projection systems, and it
> could even be that starting again, thinking about real-world usages of
> ambisonics, that one could revisit the speaker design theories.
>
> Going off on a tangent, it might be that (as others have experimented
> with, before) that the trasnducer design for the programme material which
> is 'ambient' (reflected sound, from no particular source, and therefor not
> requiring precision in phantom imagery) might differ than that for
> the'virtual sources' ('images')
>
> So I experimented with 12 very modest nxt-type flat panels which were
> rotated thru' 90 deg. to what you'd expect, as it were - that is, they
> didn't 'face' the centre but were at right angles to it. The results (given
> the modest set up) were better than they had any right to be - most
> especially for ambient and distant sounds.
> I know they used to use multiple dipoles on the walls in cinemas for
> conveying the surround channels of 5.1 material (they might still do, I
> never go to the cinema because of the loud, poor sound) - so this seems to
> be a similar principle.
>
> Just a few ramblings
> cheers
> Dr. Peter Lennox
> Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy
> Senior Lecturer in Perception
> College of Arts
> University of Derby
>
> Tel: 01332 593155
>
> From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jörn
> Nettingsmeier [netti...@stackingdwarves.net]
> Sent: 16 October 2015 12:15
> To: sursound@music.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010
> speakers?
>
> On 10/15/2015 10:51 PM, Dave Malham wrote:
> > One of the things that should be investigated in conjunction with higher
> > order Ambisonics material would be to "fade down" the higher order
> > components as the frequency drops, thus spreading the bass over more
> > speakers, reducing the strain on the individual speakers whilst
> maintaining
> > the s
Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010 speakers?
we used a much cruder version of this back in 2002 - decoding a hemispherical
32 speaker array to second order, but crossed over the B-format at 90Hz (I
think) to a horizontal-only 8-sub array, decoded in 1st order. This was on the
basis that we couldn't fly the subs, and anyway, elevation discernment, being
largely due to pinnae affects, was not appealed to by the subs anyway. Had to
work on the time alignment (the sub decoder was analogue, the mid'n'tops 32
speaker array done in software) and spatial alignment (rotating the subfield to
match t'other, in the b-format feed). It worked well, though could have been
further refined; it was a one-off installation.
But the principle of using decreasing order with decreasing frequency made
sense from the point of view of efficient use of transducers.
It made me wonder whether the same principle extends the other way - increasing
order with increasing frequency, to make up for the deficiencies in spatial
resolution of lower orders at HF.
Given that it should now be reasonably 'easy' to align the fields of multiple
cells - even having differnt numbers of speakers for each frequency band, there
might be less reason to assume that point source speakers are strictly
necessary.
We're still using speakers designed as stereo projection systems, and it could
even be that starting again, thinking about real-world usages of ambisonics,
that one could revisit the speaker design theories.
Going off on a tangent, it might be that (as others have experimented with,
before) that the trasnducer design for the programme material which is
'ambient' (reflected sound, from no particular source, and therefor not
requiring precision in phantom imagery) might differ than that for the'virtual
sources' ('images')
So I experimented with 12 very modest nxt-type flat panels which were rotated
thru' 90 deg. to what you'd expect, as it were - that is, they didn't 'face'
the centre but were at right angles to it. The results (given the modest set
up) were better than they had any right to be - most especially for ambient and
distant sounds.
I know they used to use multiple dipoles on the walls in cinemas for conveying
the surround channels of 5.1 material (they might still do, I never go to the
cinema because of the loud, poor sound) - so this seems to be a similar
principle.
Just a few ramblings
cheers
Dr. Peter Lennox
Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts
University of Derby
Tel: 01332 593155
From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jörn Nettingsmeier
[netti...@stackingdwarves.net]
Sent: 16 October 2015 12:15
To: sursound@music.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Advice on new loudspeaker array... Genelec 8010
speakers?
On 10/15/2015 10:51 PM, Dave Malham wrote:
> One of the things that should be investigated in conjunction with higher
> order Ambisonics material would be to "fade down" the higher order
> components as the frequency drops, thus spreading the bass over more
> speakers, reducing the strain on the individual speakers whilst maintaining
> the spectral balance - hey, wasn't that Richard Lee's Powered Integrated
> Sub concept from several years ago?? Doesn't help with first order materiel
> but
>
Intriguing idea, that. So we would apply zero-phase high-pass filters to
the second and higher components?
Should be nice for a test run, but how to keep latency down for live
electronics and A/V sync? How would we phase-align an IIR filter?
Allpasses on the lower components?
The spectral balance would be maintained despite the filters, since
we're in LF, where each new order "takes away" as much as it "adds", so
to say. Unlike at HF, where we have to add energies and any such
filtering throws the spectral balance of kilter, as Eigenmike users will
know...
--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487
Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio)
Tonmeister VDT
http://stackingdwarves.net
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Re: [Sursound] [OT] Recording uni lectures ...
We use a panopto lecture capture system. The best mic, especially if the lecturer wanders around (as I do) - seems to be a pzm Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Dave Malham Sent: 22 September 2015 08:31 To: Eero Aro; Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] [OT] Recording uni lectures ... I'd actually encouraged the University to record the lectures - many are starting to do this anyway, driven by the the needs of accessibility laws (in countries that have them) and the desire to enter the world of massively on-line courses. Unless there's more than a very small number of people, the fuss of setting up a loop system is worse than an individual recorder. Many of our students at York were already recording lectures on phones or laptops before I retired - basically because they were Chinese or other non-native speakers and that helped them understand English accents. I'd thought of putting a Yorkshire accent joke here, but you'd have had to record it :-) Dave On 21 September 2015 at 22:20, Eero Aro wrote: > Hi > > I've simply used (an old) Zoom H2 SD-card recorder. > > I have usually set it for mp3 for lecture recordings (good enough > audio quality and lots of duration) and selected a fig of eight mono > recording, so that possible questions from the audience also get > recorded (at least somehow). > > I have asked a permission from the lecturer to make a recording for my > own use. So far that hasn't been rejected. > > The recorder should be placed close to the speaker, exactly as you > would with a separate microphone. > > I have also sometimes placed the recorder close to the PA speaker in > the room, but the quality through the PA may have thumps or you may > miss some of the speech for some other reason. > > Eero > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > -- As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University. These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University Dave Malham Honorary Fellow, Department of Music The University of York York YO10 5DD UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20150922/bcee1423/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Google Files Trademark for '360-Degree Spherical Audio' Software
And of course, it could be a Babelfish.. Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Dave Malham Sent: 10 September 2015 10:57 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Google Files Trademark for '360-Degree Spherical Audio' Software Maybe they are going to inject one of these ( http://www.electronicproducts.com/Biotech/Research/3D_printed_microscopic_fish_used_to_deliver_drugs_and_remove_toxins.aspx) into people's ears so that it implants into the eardrum. Then they could waggle it using magnetic fields to inject the audio directly, avoiding the need for loudspeakers, headphones or anything else. :-) Dave On 10 September 2015 at 10:22, Augustine Leudar wrote: > Ahso re marketed binaural (: or maybe something new > > On Thursday, 10 September 2015, Dave Malham > wrote: > > > Not impossible if you include the phrase "over headphones" :-) > > > > Dave > > > > On 10 September 2015 at 01:45, Augustine Leudar < > augustineleu...@gmail.com > > > > > wrote: > > > > > 360 degree sound on a phone ? Sounds like someone's conning a > > > research grant out of them to me.. > > > > > > On Wednesday, 9 September 2015, > > > wrote: > > > > > > > From yesterday's tech news headlines: Google Files Trademark for > > > > '360-Degree Spherical Audio' Software > > > > > > > > > > http://www.omgchrome.com/google-dynamic-virtual-surround-sound-trade > > mark > > > > > > > > Sadly, no technical details offered. > > > > > > > > Michael Graves > > > > mgra...@mstvp.com > > > > http://www.mgraves.org > > > > o(713) 861-4005 > > > > c(713) 201-1262 > > > > sip:mgra...@mjg.onsip.comskype > > > > mjgraves > > > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was > > > > scrubbed... > > > > URL: < > > > > > > > > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2015090 > 9/35a2aba6/attachment.html > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > Sursound mailing list > > > > Sursound@music.vt.edu > > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - > > > > unsubscribe > > here, > > > > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > www.augustineleudar.com > > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was > > > scrubbed... > > > URL: < > > > > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2015091 > 0/a8203605/attachment.html > > > > > > > ___ > > > Sursound mailing list > > > Sursound@music.vt.edu > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > here, > > > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University. > > > > These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the > > University > > > > Dave Malham > > Honorary Fellow, Department of Music The University of York York > > YO10 5DD UK > > > > 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was > > scrubbed... > > URL: < > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2015091 > 0/ab8adc3d/attachment.html > > > > > ___ > > Sursound mailing list > > Sursound@music.vt.edu > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > > here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > > > > -- > www.augustineleudar.com > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was > scrubbed... > URL: < > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2015091 > 0/284df12a/attachment.html > > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > here, edit accoun
[Sursound] sounds in space - June, Derby, UK
Please excuse this, if you're not interested! A one day symposium, free to attend (but registration required) -a low-pressure event, a chance to get together, have a natter, artists, engineers, perceptual scientists and people in the sound-and-vision industries (that's not to exclude haptic) Call for Sounds In Space symposium submissions Submissions are welcomed for contributions to the Sound in Space Symposium from academic researchers, creative practitioners, and students registered to a UK university programme of study in sound, music, visual media arts or technology. Submissions are welcomed in the following areas (although other related areas also considered!): Creativity with technology in education and sound and music Multichannel sound and music development and realisation Ambisonic and other multichannel sound diffusion systems technology Hardware and software systems for sound and music spatialisation Aesthetics and perception of 3-D sound and music Theatricality of sound and sound in theatre Acousmatic music and multimedia installation work Music and space in performance or production Sound, music, hybridity and interdisciplinarity Spatialisation, visualisation and communication Analysis and/or demonstration of original work Critical evaluation of established work http://soundsinspace.co.uk/ cheers ppl Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Infra sound & Sub bass.
Tuning and sensitivity of the human vestibular system to low-frequency vibration. Neil P McAngus Todd, Sally M Rosengren James G Colebatch "...These results extend our knowledge of vibration-sensitivity of vestibular afferents but also are remarkable as they indicate that the seismic sensitivity of the human vestibular system exceeds that of the cochlea for low-frequencies. " Tuning and sensitivity of the human vestibular system to low-frequency vibration. - ResearchGate. Available from: http://www.researchgate.net/publication/23174127_Tuning_and_sensitivity_of_the_human_vestibular_system_to_low-frequency_vibration and: Todd and Cody: "In the Journal of the Acoustical Society of America1, Neil McAngus Todd and Frederick Cody of the University of Manchester suggest that addiction to ultra-loud music results from the fact that it quite literally moves its listeners But in contrast to industrial noise, Todd and Cody point out, much of the signal of loud rock and dance music is at low frequencies-in the bass. They wondered whether loud, low frequencies might be doing something quite different to the ear than normal sound But exactly why some people find acoustic excitation of the vestibular system pleasurable is not yet clear." From: http://www.nature.com/news/2000/000107/full/news000113-2.html story on : McAngusTodd, N.P. & Cody, F.W. Vestibular responses to loud dance music: A physiological basis of the "rock and roll threshold"? JASA 107, 496 - 500 2000. Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of jon burton Sent: 23 April 2015 05:24 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Infra sound & Sub bass. Increasing European legislation is pushing concert levels to a maximum of 100dBA over a 10-15min LEQ. In doors in France the norm is 103 dBA over 10 mins. Switzerland has a generous 100dBA over 60 minutes. At open air festivals the level can be as low as 95dBA or 10 minutes. The days of unrestrained rock concerts are pretty much over. At the big Rock festivals such as Download and Sonisphere the norm in 98dBA 15 mins. Cheating the levels is very hard and requires a different attitude to mixing which is what I am researching. I am very interested to hear that other engineers such as Steve Boardman are adopting the sub route. I am interested in any of the positives of the route in particular mechanosensation, the feeling that sound is loud associated with the sensation of air pressure on the skin, in the chest cavity etc. Trying to reintroduce the immersive quality of a loud concert with out the harmful sound pressure at the frequencies that are most often associated with hearing damage. Jon Burton Research Student MSc University of York. jgb...@york.ac.uk > On 22 Apr 2015, at 22:48, Jörn Nettingsmeier > wrote: > > On 04/22/2015 10:50 PM, Fons Adriaensen wrote: >> On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 08:20:36PM +0200, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote: >> >>> Well, it's not a secret that most live sound engineers, when faced >>> with a 99dB(A) rule, will mix into the A curve, i.e. crank up the >>> bass a lot. So there is plenty anecdotal evidence for more bass >>> resulting in less weighted sound pressure. >> >> The whole idea of measuring 100dB-ish levels with the A filter is >> somehow ... (trying to be gentle) strange... > > yeah, but if you measure db(C) or unweighted and mix accordingly, you _will_ > get beaten up by the skull tattoos and leather jackets crowd. so there are > health hazards to correct measuring, too. and they are occupational rather > than recreational... > > /me uses ear protection :) > > -- > Jörn Nettingsmeier > Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487 > > Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio) Tonmeister VDT > > http://stackingdwarves.net > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit > account or options, view archives and so on. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20150423/04dd09b3/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscri
Re: [Sursound] ENVELOP - 3D Sound, on Kickstarter.com - SUB frequency range
But the phase cancellation is only a problem if, in fact, you're playing multichannel mono - if you're (spatially) decoding to your array, the problem doesn't exist (see Bill Martens "The Impact of Decorrelated Low-Frequency Reproduction on Auditory Spatial Imagery: Are Two Subwoofers Better Than One? http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=8048 ) Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jonathan Burton Sent: 23 April 2015 09:02 To: rica...@justnet.com.au; Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] ENVELOP - 3D Sound, on Kickstarter.com - SUB frequency range My interest is as yours musical. Spectragraphs of frequency show significant energy at 20Hz and below in most forms of music. As soon as Percussion is introduced the level becomes significant. Mono reproduction of sub has many practical benefits in that it reduces the amount of phase cancellation that occurs with multiple speakers which in my profession is a major concern. It would be great to work with more surround sound/ambisonic material but with large audience this becomes impractical. Thanks for the reply though. Jon On Thursday, April 23, 2015, Richard Lee wrote: > There is an important reason to maintain full Ambisonic capability to > below 20Hz. > > It is a MUSICAL one. > > Go to a service at a large cathedral with good organ. At the end of > the service, the organist will play something to show off while > everyone is leaving. You can walk around and listen at various > positions without causing offense. > > On SOME pedal notes at SOME positions, you will experience 'pressure > in the head' sensations .. on other notes and positions the experience > is 'trouser flapping' Pressure & Velocity nodes in cathedral > space > > A mono recording or single "high quality Sub" converts the pleasant > 'trouser flapping' to unpleasant 'pressure in the head'. > > You need at least stereo, preferably at least 4 subs in a classic Ambi > system (and a TetraMic recording) to reproduce these important aspects > of an organ performance. This isn't about LF 'localisation'. It's > about pleasant musical sounds. > > If the desired effect is Bruce Willis blowing up the universe, > dinosaur footsteps or modern music (??), your single "high quality > Sub" is sufficient. You can also achieve the same effect by having > someone stand behind you wielding a blunt instrument at the appropriate > moment. > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20150423/986908e3/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Infra sound & Sub bass.
Jon - a stitch in time - always be on the lookout for the negatives! the prevailing common knowledge is that LF is far less damaging at the sensorineural level - but there must be some definitive investigation of this, and it's vital to find it - good luck! Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of jon burton [jgb...@york.ac.uk] Sent: 22 April 2015 21:25 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Infra sound & Sub bass. Thats interesting thanks Steve. I am looking for positives rather than negatives! Jon Burton Research Student MSc University of York. jgb...@york.ac.uk > On 22 Apr 2015, at 21:21, Steven Boardman wrote: > > Hi Jon > > I add more sub (from main mix) into the lfe channel for broadcast in Dolby > cinemas. For the same reasons. It doesn't register so much on A weighted or > Dolby leq (m) meters. This means one can use more headroom of the system > and push the dynamics and overall spl in the room. I know a few engineers > that do this for broadcast in cinemas. > Not sure of any research of the damaging effects though. > > Best > > Steve > On 22 Apr 2015 20:53, "jon burton" <mailto:jgb...@york.ac.uk>> wrote: > >> There is a wealth of information regarding the negative effects of Low >> frequency noise but most of it relates either to vibration issues or sleep >> related problems. The low frequencies produced in concerts have had very >> little specific health related research. I recently had a long conversation >> with one of the major custom earplug manufacturers who was of the opinion >> that the low frequency levels were of little concern at rock and pop >> concerts and that is was the A weighted band that we should be concerned >> with. As I am looking at ways of reducing the A weighted levels by >> increasing energy in the sub 50Hz region I am looking for research done >> that may relate to this small but interesting area. >> I have over the past ten years been using sub to help produce a more >> immersive experience at low levels. I was wondering if any of the group had >> tried anything similar. I know there has been research done on gaming >> chairs using vibration but has anyone done work with sound waves? >> >> Thanks >> >> >> Jon Burton >> Research Student MSc >> University of York. >> jgb...@york.ac.uk >> >> >> >> >> >>> On 22 Apr 2015, at 20:20, Jonathan Burton wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, April 22, 2015, Peter Lennox > <mailto:p.len...@derby.ac.uk <mailto:p.len...@derby.ac.uk>>> wrote: >>> I'd be interested in any references indicating deleterious effects on >> hearing of high amplitudes at LF, if anyone comes across any >>> cheers >>> ppl >>> Dr. Peter Lennox >>> Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy >>> Senior Lecturer in Perception >>> College of Arts >>> University of Derby >>> >>> Tel: 01332 593155 >>> >>> From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu >>> <mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu> ] On Behalf >> Of Jörn Nettingsmeier [netti...@stackingdwarves.net >> <mailto:netti...@stackingdwarves.net> ] >>> Sent: 22 April 2015 19:20 >>> To: sursound@music.vt.edu <mailto:sursound@music.vt.edu> >>> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Infra sound & Sub bass. >>> >>> On 04/22/2015 06:49 PM, jon burton wrote: >>>> Hi I am new to the group but hoping someone may be able to help. I >>>> am looking at the positive effects of low frequencies in music, >>>> predominantly below 50Hz. This involves aural as well as >>>> mechanosensations. I am interested in seeing if reinforcing the low >>>> frequency content below 50Hz can help produce a more immersive >>>> listening experience at lower overall sound pressure levels >>>> (particularly when measured using the A weighting scale). Trouser >>>> flapping bass! I am struggling to find papers on the subject. Any >>>> suggestions are welcome! >>> >>> Well, it's not a secret that most live sound engineers, when faced with >>> a 99dB(A) rule, will mix into the A curve, i.e. crank up the bass a lot. >>> So there is plenty anecdotal evidence for more bass resulting in less >>> weighted sound pressure. For mor
Re: [Sursound] Infra sound & Sub bass.
I'd be interested in any references indicating deleterious effects on hearing of high amplitudes at LF, if anyone comes across any cheers ppl Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jörn Nettingsmeier [netti...@stackingdwarves.net] Sent: 22 April 2015 19:20 To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: Re: [Sursound] Infra sound & Sub bass. On 04/22/2015 06:49 PM, jon burton wrote: > Hi I am new to the group but hoping someone may be able to help. I > am looking at the positive effects of low frequencies in music, > predominantly below 50Hz. This involves aural as well as > mechanosensations. I am interested in seeing if reinforcing the low > frequency content below 50Hz can help produce a more immersive > listening experience at lower overall sound pressure levels > (particularly when measured using the A weighting scale). Trouser > flapping bass! I am struggling to find papers on the subject. Any > suggestions are welcome! Well, it's not a secret that most live sound engineers, when faced with a 99dB(A) rule, will mix into the A curve, i.e. crank up the bass a lot. So there is plenty anecdotal evidence for more bass resulting in less weighted sound pressure. For more perceived loudness, mixing in some typical loudspeaker-like artificial distortion has prevented me from getting beaten up at a "95 at the mixer" open air metal concert. Don't ask me who came up with that rule, for that kind of music. But I've heard medical research hint at low frequency exposure having a very damaging effect across the entire hearing spectrum, which means that we are mixing around the rules but are actually endangering our audiences. Be sure to check the literature for this problem, to get a balanced view. -- Jörn Nettingsmeier Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487 Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio) Tonmeister VDT http://stackingdwarves.net ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] ENVELOP - 3D Sound, on Kickstarter.com - SUB frequency range
Richard Warren, in "Auditory Perception: a New Synthesis" implies, on p 84, a broader range of 50-100Hz (as a notional lower bound of capability for spectral resolution, which would be required for phase locking) - so that would imply that 80 is not a bad working figure in real environments. Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Peter Lennox [p.len...@derby.ac.uk] Sent: 22 April 2015 10:28 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] ENVELOP - 3D Sound, on Kickstarter.com - SUB frequency range I've briefly tried to find a reference on lower bounds for phase-locking, which would limit directional acuity at the bottom of LF, and haven't yet.. I'll try again. It seems to me that all the other constraints on LF directional hearing are acoustic, to do with standing waves. In a large array (different from what was being discussed, I know) and for ambulant perceivers, amplitude gradient across the array comes into place, and even with a X-over freq of 80Hz, you can hear Lf panning quite clearly (obviously, when testing subs, one muted the mid-n-tops) Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Bo-Erik Sandholm [bo-erik.sandh...@ericsson.com] Sent: 22 April 2015 08:45 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] ENVELOP - 3D Sound, on Kickstarter.com - SUB frequency range OK Dave - I was mostly referencing to "high quality Subs" in home/small to medium sized listening spaces.. I do not really have experience in large scale sound systems - here is a few google finds. The chest cavity resonates between 80 to 95 hz was my thinking and seems to be correct, read Entry #25 in link below ... - but as usual in a discussion forum not all agrees. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/195046-chest-thump-trousers-flappin.html But as usual in this discussions there are some ideas that do not make sense with the laws of physics - for example the directionality of low frequency sounds. Entry #35 The 'punch' of percussive sounds are roughly concentrated between 100-800Hz. The sounds above 800Hz are considered as part of the ‘attack’ of the sound. The 'attack' of the sound gives an accent to the ear of the 'punching' sound. Although the 'attack' can not be felt by the body, it does make the ear correspond to the part of the audio band that can be felt. This gives more evocative feel to the punch. For instance, if you eq individual instruments like a drumkick with more >1500Hz to raise the attack, it will also sound like it adds more 'punch'. (Of course the point where the feeling is taken over by hearing is not centred on one spot like 800Hz, but instead covers a wider area.) Entry #43 i can feel it well in my chest at ~85db using my reference system. (+- 2db 16Hz-22kHz) below 85 it's still there just not really tactile. This is really interesting where the audio review descriptions are defined by frequency http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm Factors Influencing the Perception of Bass https://acoustics.org/pressroom/httpdocs/133rd/4aaa6.html Although the direction of arrival did have a small effect, changes in level had a much stronger influence and these results confirm that added low frequency reflections could be used to increase the perceived strength of bass sounds. Conclusions The perceived strength of bass sounds is not influenced by low frequency reverberation time. The levels of both the early- and late-arriving bass sounds influence the perceived strength of bass sounds. Subjects' evaluations of bass sounds are more sensitive to late arriving low frequency sounds than to early arriving low frequency sounds. Added low frequency reflections can be used to compensate for the seat dip effect and increase the perceived bass strength in concert halls. --- Maybe the relevance disappeared :-). I still belive directionality of low frequency sounds are defined by the overtones. But as one of my old teachers said: Believe you can do in church, an engineer you have to know. Best Regards Bo-Erik -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Dave Malham Sent: den 21 april 2015 18:22 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] ENVELOP - 3D Sound, on Kickstarter.com - SUB frequency range Hmmm...I have to say that I am simply not convinced (and haven't been for many years) that the figure 80 Hz is appropriate except in domestic
Re: [Sursound] ENVELOP - 3D Sound, on Kickstarter.com - SUB frequency range
I've briefly tried to find a reference on lower bounds for phase-locking, which would limit directional acuity at the bottom of LF, and haven't yet.. I'll try again. It seems to me that all the other constraints on LF directional hearing are acoustic, to do with standing waves. In a large array (different from what was being discussed, I know) and for ambulant perceivers, amplitude gradient across the array comes into place, and even with a X-over freq of 80Hz, you can hear Lf panning quite clearly (obviously, when testing subs, one muted the mid-n-tops) Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Bo-Erik Sandholm [bo-erik.sandh...@ericsson.com] Sent: 22 April 2015 08:45 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] ENVELOP - 3D Sound, on Kickstarter.com - SUB frequency range OK Dave - I was mostly referencing to "high quality Subs" in home/small to medium sized listening spaces.. I do not really have experience in large scale sound systems - here is a few google finds. The chest cavity resonates between 80 to 95 hz was my thinking and seems to be correct, read Entry #25 in link below ... - but as usual in a discussion forum not all agrees. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/195046-chest-thump-trousers-flappin.html But as usual in this discussions there are some ideas that do not make sense with the laws of physics - for example the directionality of low frequency sounds. Entry #35 The 'punch' of percussive sounds are roughly concentrated between 100-800Hz. The sounds above 800Hz are considered as part of the ‘attack’ of the sound. The 'attack' of the sound gives an accent to the ear of the 'punching' sound. Although the 'attack' can not be felt by the body, it does make the ear correspond to the part of the audio band that can be felt. This gives more evocative feel to the punch. For instance, if you eq individual instruments like a drumkick with more >1500Hz to raise the attack, it will also sound like it adds more 'punch'. (Of course the point where the feeling is taken over by hearing is not centred on one spot like 800Hz, but instead covers a wider area.) Entry #43 i can feel it well in my chest at ~85db using my reference system. (+- 2db 16Hz-22kHz) below 85 it's still there just not really tactile. This is really interesting where the audio review descriptions are defined by frequency http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm Factors Influencing the Perception of Bass https://acoustics.org/pressroom/httpdocs/133rd/4aaa6.html Although the direction of arrival did have a small effect, changes in level had a much stronger influence and these results confirm that added low frequency reflections could be used to increase the perceived strength of bass sounds. Conclusions The perceived strength of bass sounds is not influenced by low frequency reverberation time. The levels of both the early- and late-arriving bass sounds influence the perceived strength of bass sounds. Subjects' evaluations of bass sounds are more sensitive to late arriving low frequency sounds than to early arriving low frequency sounds. Added low frequency reflections can be used to compensate for the seat dip effect and increase the perceived bass strength in concert halls. --- Maybe the relevance disappeared :-). I still belive directionality of low frequency sounds are defined by the overtones. But as one of my old teachers said: Believe you can do in church, an engineer you have to know. Best Regards Bo-Erik -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Dave Malham Sent: den 21 april 2015 18:22 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] ENVELOP - 3D Sound, on Kickstarter.com - SUB frequency range Hmmm...I have to say that I am simply not convinced (and haven't been for many years) that the figure 80 Hz is appropriate except in domestic sized rooms where the wavefronts are too befuddled by the early arrival of reflections, usually well within a wavelength. I have been able to localise subs far too often at much lower frequencies in concert halls to accept it without the qualification. Even if our hearing - which at these frequencies is not just via the ears, but also through, for instance, chest cavity resonances - cannot directly perceive the direction of low frequency sounds, even the best subs distort producing higher frequency components and there is always the possibility (read near certainty in any real rig) that something will rattle which definitely will be localisable. Dave :-) On 21 April 2015 at 11:39, Bo-Erik Sandholm wrote: > Why n
Re: [Sursound] ENVELOP - 3D Sound, on Kickstarter.com
just to pitch in - I've never liked running multiple subs from the W channel (leads to "in head" bass) in a large area, I once ran a dome of 32xmid'n'tops, which displayed 1st, 2nd and 3rd order periphonic material, along with 8 XSubs around the periphery, 1st order decoded from wxy - worked very well and no horrible nodes. Actually, the (1st order) crossover point was about 110Hz (I seem to remember) and there was no sense of the subs pulling localisation downwards cheers Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jörn Nettingsmeier [netti...@stackingdwarves.net] Sent: 20 April 2015 10:10 To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: Re: [Sursound] ENVELOP - 3D Sound, on Kickstarter.com On 04/20/2015 12:07 AM, Stefan Schreiber wrote: > All valid points. > > But how would you build a good Ambisonics rig for home use, then? > > You might need three or four subs if the range of your speakers doesn't > go down far enough... If you don't have space, I would (still) go for > good speakers, at least down to about 40 hz. > > And maybe we should distinguish between a large area rig (Jörn) and a > home system, for further and more accurate discussion. The large area PA > system will be cheaper if you use subs. In home systems you will have > the typical space restrictions. Fair point, although even at home it might be easier to hide one or more subs and keep the rest of the speakers as compact as possible. > You could use one sub of your 5.1 system, as long as you have one. > Typical Ambisonics software decoders for 4.0 or 5.0 layout won't support > the .1 subwoofer. (Or are there some?) Just hook it up to the W channel. That assumes matched gains and crossover, which should be provided by most if not all home theatre sets. > Jörn: With which software and measures are you actually driving your > system? You could filter the channels and (basically) drive two decoders > for 3rd order (main PA speakers) and 1st order (for the 4 subs). (?) It's usually ambdec. And yes, that's indeed what I do. During testing, there will be two instances of ambdec for subs and tops, and for production, I usually fold their configurations into a single matrix for ease of use. > A normal "sound processor" style filtering can't be applied in this > case, because of the mixed 8 speakers/4subs PA system. So aren't you > using a "mixed-order decoder" in the 1st place? (Quotation marks > intentional, as the source is TOA. You still have 8 + 4 speakers/subs. > to drive.) I don't understand what you mean by "sound processor". Yes, a system made of, for example, 16 tops and 4 subs like this one [1] would be mixed-order, but even then, the area of good-enough reconstruction is way larger for the first-order bass than for the third-order treble range. [1] http://stackingdwarves.net/public_stuff/ardour_photos/Ardour-Klanglabor-2.jpg -- Jörn Nettingsmeier Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487 Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio) Tonmeister VDT http://stackingdwarves.net ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Boids for Ambisonic Panning
I don't know, though - Geese will eat anything... Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of umashankar manthravadi [umasha...@hotmail.com] Sent: 14 April 2015 14:40 To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: Re: [Sursound] Boids for Ambisonic Panning no no they will use the large hadron collider to recover bits of the geese. umashankar > From: j...@johnleonard.uk > Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 14:28:44 +0100 > To: sursound@music.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Boids for Ambisonic Panning > > I would be most upset if one of my recordings resulted in the end of the > world. Mind you, it would make for an interesting recording opportunity... > > Regards, > > John > > > On Apr 13, 2015, at 14:12, Dave Malham wrote: > > > oh dear, we seem to have a black hole and > > all we were trying to do was play a goose recording :-) > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit > account or options, view archives and so on. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20150414/64580e2c/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Re. Boids for Ambisonic Panning
Quite agree, Dave - in fact I'd go further: Literal physical realism is a philosophical and practical impossibility. The idea of an artificial reality - sometimes called "virtual reality" that has ALL the causal attributes of "real reality" is entirely suspect - if it had all the atttributes, then you would just refer to it as "reality" and if it only had some, then this fact would logically be detectable. This argument is as old as the hills - it's not precisely what Plato was saying in his Cave metaphor (later made into a film : "the Matrix") but the example is germane. The appropriate argument for Plato's example (goodness knows, we're still arguing with him more than two-and-a-half thousand years later!) it the "...as if..." argument - if it looks, smells, feels like reality, proceed to treat it as if it is real. If it walks like a duck... etc So, given that, for most purposes in most artificial environments, "plausibility" is the only game in town I tend to think of this question (which taxes me a lot, as you can imagine) in terms of "cognitive cartoonification" - that is to say, perception cannot possibly handle all of the "infinite" (oh, alright, not literally, but beyond my mathematical capabilities by many orders of magnitude) incoming information, in real time. So, processing shortcuts have to be made, and the selection of these shortcuts is what we normally call "evolution". Hence, the 'cognitive currency' of our everyday interactions with our environment is in the form of pared-down, but appropriate to the task in and, representations - cartoons. For a fine example of just how pared-down (in a non-noisy environment) see http://www.biomotionlab.ca/Demos/BMLwalker.html - 15 points of light can give you age, sex, weight, mood (along more than one dimension) Another way to think of it: you could have a made-for-TV period drama that is lusciously shot, using fantastic hi-def equipment, yet it seem lacklustre and boring. You could have badly drawn, badly animated, coloured-in-by-a-three-year-old cartoons (eg. The Simpsons) that are funnier, more interesting and philosophically deeper than the first example. So animated puppets, cartoons, theatre, paintings, can all engender the sense of plausibility without being remotely "realistic". Better go and do some work now... Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Dave Malham [dave.mal...@york.ac.uk] Sent: 14 April 2015 07:12 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Re. Boids for Ambisonic Panning If there is a choice to be made, plausibility is definitely more important than realism - if nothing else, because plausibility is almost always (with due care and attention) achievable whereas realism almost never, or never, is. Dave On 13 April 2015 at 18:15, James Anthony Enda Bates wrote: > I think most of the important points have been covered already but in > general I would say that when simulating distance effects, plausibility is > usually more relevant than absolute realism. > Also, the more cues, the better! > enda > > -- www.endabates.net > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20150413/7dc6d25f/attachment.html > > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > -- As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University. These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University Dave Malham Honorary Fellow, Department of Music The University of York York YO10 5DD UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20150414/fff7c6e4/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Re. Boids for Ambisonic Panning
yes, or at least, if cues conflict, get rid of one of them...;-) Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of James Anthony Enda Bates [bate...@tcd.ie] Sent: 13 April 2015 18:15 To: sursound@music.vt.edu Subject: [Sursound] Re. Boids for Ambisonic Panning I think most of the important points have been covered already but in general I would say that when simulating distance effects, plausibility is usually more relevant than absolute realism. Also, the more cues, the better! enda -- www.endabates.net -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20150413/7dc6d25f/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, please select unsubscribe. Unsubscribe and Security information contact: info...@derby.ac.uk For all FOI requests please contact: f...@derby.ac.uk All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/ ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Boids for Ambisonic Panning
I think a point source could only occur in a moment of time... Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Dave Malham [dave.mal...@york.ac.uk] Sent: 13 April 2015 14:12 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Boids for Ambisonic Panning Ah yes, the proverbial point source. Never heard one of them, never want to - a true point source would imply an infinite power density to output anything which would, in turn, imply infinite energy density which would imply infinite density and .. oh dear, we seem to have a black hole and all we were trying to do was play a goose recording :-) Dave On 13 April 2015 at 12:59, Peter Lennox wrote: > The distance (technically, "range" - from perceiver to source- -) problem > encountered in "giant geese: (John Leonard's ambisonic recording of > close-miked geese played over a large, <30m radius rig) was the disparity > in subtended angles produced by the decorrelation across any image with > non-neglible ASW (apparent source width) in combination with a perceptiual > constancy for speaker distance in any non-anechoic performance site. > As Dave says, we had fun with several examples of 'blown up' images - a > giant toilet (with high-flush cistern), a VW (mine) that approached > plausibly enough, then as it traversed the speaker array - whose radius was > significantly greater than the mic-source distance - the VW stretched and > became huge, about 15metres long and high as a house - then it departed, > plausibly enough. > > My students have encountered the same when trying to reproduce a > "Mousetrap" game (a thing with rolling marbles that travel along little > troughs, drop to the next level and so on) in an auditorium - change the > display radius, and the sound of the speed of rolling and the change of > angle seriously don't match. > > So, one can't just treat things as 'point sources' (what is one of those, > exactly?) and movement has to take into account the display radius. > > Still, a giant toilet flushing was fun to behold. > > regards > ppl > Dr. Peter Lennox > Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy > Senior Lecturer in Perception > College of Arts > University of Derby > > Tel: 01332 593155 > > From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Dave Malham [ > dave.mal...@york.ac.uk] > Sent: 12 April 2015 09:12 > To: Surround Sound discussion group > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Boids for Ambisonic Panning > > Hi Ricky, > Boids has been around for a long time and I'm certain it's been > used quite a few times in electroacoustic compositions - in fact, I seem to > remember one of our students on the Music Technology course here at York > doing so. Trouble is, I'm darned if I can remember his or her name (which > will be no surprise to anyone who's been on that course - my apologies to > the person concerned if they are reading this :-). Your best bet would be > to look through the Proceedings of the ICMC from around '87 and maybe the > Computer Music Journal. > > I'm not sure what you mean by "...difficult to scale in terms of > distance". Are you referring to the mapping of the notional distances in > the boid simulation to the things which we use perceptually to deduce the > distance of a sound source? That's opening up an interesting can of worms! > Do a search in the archives for "giant geese" to see the fun we had talking > (arguing) about it last time. A lot will depend on wether the sound sources > are "familiar" or not - we can easily tell that a thunder storm (or a jet) > is > distant or nearby because we are familiar with them as "perceptual objects" > and can construe them within the acoustic space we are listening in but > with constructed sounds that we are not familiar with we are stuck with > "immediate" (and to some extent, unreliable) cues like direct to > reverberant ratios, the pattern of early reflections, HF rolloff and maybe > distortion (loud sounds have distortion which increases with distance). If > he's currently on the list, I suspect Peter Lennox will jump in here and > tell me I've got it all wrong :-). > >Anyway, I'm sure much/all of this is old news for you but I had to have > something to occupy a Sunday morning whilst waiting for the croissants to > warm up > > All the best > > Dave > > > > On 11 April 2015 at
Re: [Sursound] Boids for Ambisonic Panning
The distance (technically, "range" - from perceiver to source- -) problem encountered in "giant geese: (John Leonard's ambisonic recording of close-miked geese played over a large, <30m radius rig) was the disparity in subtended angles produced by the decorrelation across any image with non-neglible ASW (apparent source width) in combination with a perceptiual constancy for speaker distance in any non-anechoic performance site. As Dave says, we had fun with several examples of 'blown up' images - a giant toilet (with high-flush cistern), a VW (mine) that approached plausibly enough, then as it traversed the speaker array - whose radius was significantly greater than the mic-source distance - the VW stretched and became huge, about 15metres long and high as a house - then it departed, plausibly enough. My students have encountered the same when trying to reproduce a "Mousetrap" game (a thing with rolling marbles that travel along little troughs, drop to the next level and so on) in an auditorium - change the display radius, and the sound of the speed of rolling and the change of angle seriously don't match. So, one can't just treat things as 'point sources' (what is one of those, exactly?) and movement has to take into account the display radius. Still, a giant toilet flushing was fun to behold. regards ppl Dr. Peter Lennox Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy Senior Lecturer in Perception College of Arts University of Derby Tel: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Dave Malham [dave.mal...@york.ac.uk] Sent: 12 April 2015 09:12 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Boids for Ambisonic Panning Hi Ricky, Boids has been around for a long time and I'm certain it's been used quite a few times in electroacoustic compositions - in fact, I seem to remember one of our students on the Music Technology course here at York doing so. Trouble is, I'm darned if I can remember his or her name (which will be no surprise to anyone who's been on that course - my apologies to the person concerned if they are reading this :-). Your best bet would be to look through the Proceedings of the ICMC from around '87 and maybe the Computer Music Journal. I'm not sure what you mean by "...difficult to scale in terms of distance". Are you referring to the mapping of the notional distances in the boid simulation to the things which we use perceptually to deduce the distance of a sound source? That's opening up an interesting can of worms! Do a search in the archives for "giant geese" to see the fun we had talking (arguing) about it last time. A lot will depend on wether the sound sources are "familiar" or not - we can easily tell that a thunder storm (or a jet) is distant or nearby because we are familiar with them as "perceptual objects" and can construe them within the acoustic space we are listening in but with constructed sounds that we are not familiar with we are stuck with "immediate" (and to some extent, unreliable) cues like direct to reverberant ratios, the pattern of early reflections, HF rolloff and maybe distortion (loud sounds have distortion which increases with distance). If he's currently on the list, I suspect Peter Lennox will jump in here and tell me I've got it all wrong :-). Anyway, I'm sure much/all of this is old news for you but I had to have something to occupy a Sunday morning whilst waiting for the croissants to warm up All the best Dave On 11 April 2015 at 22:05, Ricky Graham wrote: > Hello, > > I use the boids algorithm to pan materials around a space. The Cartesian > output number range per boid in space is difficult to scale in terms of > distance; azimuth seems to be fairly intuitive and sounds correct to my > ears. > > Do any of you have any similar experiences / advice on how best to > approach distance when using boids? > > Best, > > Ricky > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20150411/8432ee5f/attachment.html > > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > -- As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University. These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University Dave Malham Honorary Fellow, Department of Music The University of York York YO10 5DD UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed.
Re: [Sursound] Oculus Rift Visual Demo + Ambisonic Audio Available?
Hysteresis was the word I was looking for... (Hysteresis is the dependence of the output of a system not only on its current input, but also on its history of past inputs. The dependence arises because the history affects the value of an internal state. To predict its future outputs, either its internal state or its history must be known. Hysteresis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) so, a kind of "cognitive hysteresis" is the principle whereby whatever we experience "now" depends on what went before Dr Peter Lennox School of Technology, Faculty of Arts, Design and Technology University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Peter Lennox [p.len...@derby.ac.uk] Sent: 26 November 2014 22:36 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Oculus Rift Visual Demo + Ambisonic Audio Available? Daryl - the principle you're alluding to is that of "cognitive mapping" - in other words, whenever we're perceiving the world, we are always doing it with some prior knowledge - Dreyfuss said "we are always already in a situation" (haven't got the reference to hand) We know from such things as "ventriloquist effect" and "Franssen effect" (which is also related to precedence effect and transients) that spatial conclusions have a sort of "inertia", a "stickiness" favouring the last solid conclusion. I forget the word for a system-state that tends to stay in one condition until sufficiently disturbed. Anyway, you know what I mean So "prior knowledge" is not simple - and indeed, dominates our perceptual performance. Sensory stimuli just serve as updates cheers ppl Dr Peter Lennox School of Technology, Faculty of Arts, Design and Technology University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Daryl Pierce [da...@darylpierce.com] Sent: 26 November 2014 22:25 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Oculus Rift Visual Demo + Ambisonic Audio Available? This is a very refreshing turn to the conversation on this subject. Our means of settling such localization ambiguity in the wild as it were must be pretty diverse and inventive, sometimes I suppose as simple as prior knowledge of a building layout for example. I hear the clothes dryer above and to my left because I know that's where it is. My brain translates the diffuse confusion of audio bouncing off various walls and the ceiling, presumably discarding the cues that couldn't possibly be correct. It's exiting to think that virtual reality might allow at least a semi-plausible route to studying these interrelated sensory cues a little better. On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 3:19 PM, Peter Lennox wrote: > actually, I can hear birds downwards from my balcony - not directly below, > but quite steeply below - but they are real birds, not an artificial sound > field. > > But as to whether our acuity "below" is as good as elsewhere - well - it's > not that great upwards (minimum audible angle about 10 degrees? - can't > remember a reference - anyone?) as against dead ahead (0 degrees azimuth, > elevation) where the theoretical best is in the order of 1 - 2 degrees > (ITDs, in the lab - Mills, 1950-something) > > Naturally, own-body shadowing at hf (especially if one is too fond of > beer) is an important consideration. > > One can understand that we're not "fully 3-D" - we live on the ground and > this consistent regularity might be expected to be incorporated > phylogenetically (species level) as well as ontogenetically (individual > experience-and-development) > > Birds have evolved with quite different environmental challenges. They are > probably better at vectoring movements, and if they could converse, > probably would not have the same kind of "azimuth + elevation" thinking > that we do > > But the key point in all this is that head movement and locomotion are > intrinsic to our perceptual performance - we're simply not static receivers > of signals. So "down" is quite easily discernible in the same way that > front-back reversals (and other manifestations of "cones of confusion") can > be quickly disambiguated with a bit of movement, in the wild. > > So the "down problem" in many 3-d sound systems is likely to be something > else... > Dr Peter Lennox > > School of Technology, > Faculty of Arts, Design and Technology > University of Derby, UK > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk > t: 01332 593155 > > From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
Re: [Sursound] Oculus Rift Visual Demo + Ambisonic Audio Available?
Daryl - the principle you're alluding to is that of "cognitive mapping" - in other words, whenever we're perceiving the world, we are always doing it with some prior knowledge - Dreyfuss said "we are always already in a situation" (haven't got the reference to hand) We know from such things as "ventriloquist effect" and "Franssen effect" (which is also related to precedence effect and transients) that spatial conclusions have a sort of "inertia", a "stickiness" favouring the last solid conclusion. I forget the word for a system-state that tends to stay in one condition until sufficiently disturbed. Anyway, you know what I mean So "prior knowledge" is not simple - and indeed, dominates our perceptual performance. Sensory stimuli just serve as updates cheers ppl Dr Peter Lennox School of Technology, Faculty of Arts, Design and Technology University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Daryl Pierce [da...@darylpierce.com] Sent: 26 November 2014 22:25 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Oculus Rift Visual Demo + Ambisonic Audio Available? This is a very refreshing turn to the conversation on this subject. Our means of settling such localization ambiguity in the wild as it were must be pretty diverse and inventive, sometimes I suppose as simple as prior knowledge of a building layout for example. I hear the clothes dryer above and to my left because I know that's where it is. My brain translates the diffuse confusion of audio bouncing off various walls and the ceiling, presumably discarding the cues that couldn't possibly be correct. It's exiting to think that virtual reality might allow at least a semi-plausible route to studying these interrelated sensory cues a little better. On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 3:19 PM, Peter Lennox wrote: > actually, I can hear birds downwards from my balcony - not directly below, > but quite steeply below - but they are real birds, not an artificial sound > field. > > But as to whether our acuity "below" is as good as elsewhere - well - it's > not that great upwards (minimum audible angle about 10 degrees? - can't > remember a reference - anyone?) as against dead ahead (0 degrees azimuth, > elevation) where the theoretical best is in the order of 1 - 2 degrees > (ITDs, in the lab - Mills, 1950-something) > > Naturally, own-body shadowing at hf (especially if one is too fond of > beer) is an important consideration. > > One can understand that we're not "fully 3-D" - we live on the ground and > this consistent regularity might be expected to be incorporated > phylogenetically (species level) as well as ontogenetically (individual > experience-and-development) > > Birds have evolved with quite different environmental challenges. They are > probably better at vectoring movements, and if they could converse, > probably would not have the same kind of "azimuth + elevation" thinking > that we do > > But the key point in all this is that head movement and locomotion are > intrinsic to our perceptual performance - we're simply not static receivers > of signals. So "down" is quite easily discernible in the same way that > front-back reversals (and other manifestations of "cones of confusion") can > be quickly disambiguated with a bit of movement, in the wild. > > So the "down problem" in many 3-d sound systems is likely to be something > else... > Dr Peter Lennox > > School of Technology, > Faculty of Arts, Design and Technology > University of Derby, UK > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk > t: 01332 593155 > > From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Dave Malham [ > dave.mal...@york.ac.uk] > Sent: 26 November 2014 11:39 > To: Surround Sound discussion group > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Oculus Rift Visual Demo + Ambisonic Audio > Available? > > Have I really heard sounds from below me?? Yes, all the time - every time > I walk around (other than a really, really, soft carpet), in stair wells > let alon leaning out of windows, in cable cars, in microlights, hot air > balloons, mesh floored lighting bridges - I could go on and on (and I > frequently do :-). Mind you, it's not as robust as horizontal imaging - > witness what happens if you play recordings of birds flying below you (top > of Bempton Cliffs in Yorkshire), it's impossible - or very nearly so - to > hear them as anything but above. > > Dave > > On 26 November 2014 at 03:22, Sampo Syreeni wrote: > > > On 2014-11-21, dw wrote: > > > > The state-
Re: [Sursound] Oculus Rift Visual Demo + Ambisonic Audio Available?
Sampo, you said: "Ville Pulkki's work with DirAC, and his and his workgroup's two demonstrations, have me convinced that even fourth order ambisonics leaves too much artificial correlation in the soundfield at the size of a human head, to sound natural. That then also means that you can't just naïvely, linearly, statically, matrix down from any extant order of (periphonic or otherwise) ambisonics to binaural, even with full head tracking, and expect it to sound as good as the best object panning format." Do you think the problem is with ambisonics introducing artificial correlation? I ask because 4th order (over sufficient speakers) doesn't sound too correlated to me, in the sense of being lacking in spaciousness. And straight binaural (using recordings with my own head) likewise - externalisation and range perception is generally good (though there's a frequency-dependent aspect to it) So it might be that something in between is introducing the "artificial correlation" - something at the BRIR stage? - is a subtle enough use of room impulses being used? Dr Peter Lennox School of Technology, Faculty of Arts, Design and Technology University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Sampo Syreeni [de...@iki.fi] Sent: 26 November 2014 01:27 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Oculus Rift Visual Demo + Ambisonic Audio Available? On 2014-11-12, Adam Somers wrote: > VR video (or as we call it, Cinematic VR) is in some ways the perfect > use-case for ambisonics. This year we've created hundreds, if not > thousands, of b-format recordings with accompanying 360º 3D video. It really is. Because of the basic, most-old-fashioned ambisonic principle: fully uncompromised isotropy in encoding. (Note, I'm not saying anything about decoding.) In that the technology fits *abominably* well with stereoscopy, and especially looking around from a fixed viewpoint, in optics. Then what ambisonics might *not* be so good in is virtual environments where you move about. That's because of the centred, angularly parametrized framework, which pretty much only lends itself to a fixed "view"point into the acoustic field. You can then make it work in synthetic and even recorded-recreated acoustic environments. But not by direct recording and playback. You have to do something extra in between. You have to somehow abstract off your B-format recording, so that auditory cues still match. Like reverberation falloff, the auditory parallax of close sources over your movement, the mutual, directional correlation coefficients of the stuff you perceive as being part of the space and envelopment. Ville's and Archontis's work can do anything of the sort. But still, given how nice they sound and how they also do that said kind of abtraction on the way, I'd say they are at the forefront of the stuff which could eventually become a Gaming/Movie/Department-store miracle-development. > Still, I've yet to find a solution for b-to-binaural which is as > convincing as some of the BRIR-based object-sound spatialization > packages (e.g. DTS HeadphoneX and Visisonics Realspace). I believe I know where the problem is, or at least I believe I can participate meaningfully in a process which leads to a nigh-optimal solution. And in this one, I do mean it, for real. I have some real ideas here, with my only problem being that I'm lazy, poor, already well underway into hard alcoholism...and short of hands who'd take my ideas seriously. The spherical surface harmonic kinds of ideas. Just give me the usual starved for life and scholarship doctorand, even on-list, and I'll tell you how b-to-binaural is done. If not as a final solution, then as a bunch of processes and guidelines. A la Gerzon Himself. :D > I think what's primarily lacking is externalization, which perhaps can > be 'faked' with BRIRs. Ville Pulkki's work with DirAC, and his and his workgroup's two demonstrations, have me convinced that even fourth order ambisonics leaves too much artificial correlation in the soundfield at the size of a human head, to sound natural. That then also means that you can't just naïvely, linearly, statically, matrix down from any extant order of (periphonic or otherwise) ambisonics to binaural, even with full head tracking, and expect it to sound as good as the best object panning format. So you need some active decoding magic in between. The Gerzon era problem with active decoding actually was that it was being used for the wrong purposes, too aggressively, and at such a very low level of electronic sophistication that it just couldn't work. Gerzon didn't ever touch Mathematica or MATLAB either, so that much of his analysis was that of an e
