Re: [Sursound] Pan Law Irregular Speaker Array

[Sean Devonport]

Thanks Bo-Erik.

For clarification, I was assuming moving objects around the space. I
imagine updating the delay lines would cause somewhat erratic pitch shifts
amongst each speaker, I guess dependent on the size of the array, these
would be larger or smaller.

Could be an idea to limit the speed that a sound source can move, and
ensure the pitch shift isn't too dramatic

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Re: [Sursound] Pan Law Irregular Speaker Array

[Bo-Erik Sandholm]

I suspect that for a slow moving person among stationary sound subjects,
you really have to have perfect pitch to notice the pitch change.
If you have high speed moving objects like cars or trains... the listener
probably can be considered standing still in comparison to the object.

Dependant on where the person is listening from the object might have a
strange movement/sound image.

Bo-Erik

Den ons 28 aug. 2019 14:31Sean Devonport  skrev:

> Sorry, just to expand on that. I think it's interesting to note that the
> doppler shift implies there is a listener that is experienced the effect.
>
> In this setup, using DBAP with delays, we're implying that the loudspeaker
> is acting as a sort of 'listener': i.e, the pitch shift at each speaker
> would be quite different, some speakers possibly dropping in frequency
> whilst others rise.
>
> I'm not sure exactly how this would affect the perception of the moving
> sources or if it would confuse listeners in the space. Something to ponder
> though, and probably requires some rigorous testing. I think it would
> depend largely on the actual loudspeaker setup.
>
> If the resources are available, I'd say a crossfading delay line would be a
> more consistent method of doing the delay changes with DBAP.
>
> --
> Sean Devonport
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Re: [Sursound] Pan Law Irregular Speaker Array

[Sean Devonport]

Sorry, just to expand on that. I think it's interesting to note that the
doppler shift implies there is a listener that is experienced the effect.

In this setup, using DBAP with delays, we're implying that the loudspeaker
is acting as a sort of 'listener': i.e, the pitch shift at each speaker
would be quite different, some speakers possibly dropping in frequency
whilst others rise.

I'm not sure exactly how this would affect the perception of the moving
sources or if it would confuse listeners in the space. Something to ponder
though, and probably requires some rigorous testing. I think it would
depend largely on the actual loudspeaker setup.

If the resources are available, I'd say a crossfading delay line would be a
more consistent method of doing the delay changes with DBAP.

-- 
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Re: [Sursound] Pan Law Irregular Speaker Array

[Sean Devonport]

Hey Jonathon and Richard,

Just to expand on the doppler stuff: a doppler shift would occur as the
delays are changed at each crosspoint's delayline. So as the source moves
further from a speaker and the delays are updated, the pitch should lower.
Here is a resource you can check out:
https://www.dsprelated.com/freebooks/pasp/Doppler_Simulation.html

You can test this using a sine wave as a source object :)

As far as I know, there are methods that can smoothen the doppler shift (
https://dsp.stackexchange.com/questions/27133/fractional-interpolating-delay-line-still-sounding-glitchy),
or, if the resources are available, you could completely get rid of it by
cross fading between two delay lines.

-- 
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Re: [Sursound] Pan Law Irregular Speaker Array

[Richard Foss]

Hi Jonathan,

Thanks for pointing this out - yes, it a delay for each source at each speaker. 
This might have been what was confusing Ralph.

Maybe some context would help. Control is from a mobile device, which sends 3D 
coords to a Mac/PC server. A DAW or multi-channel Wav file plays 32 channels of 
audio over Ethernet AVB. These 32 channels get sent to each speaker. In each 
speaker is a 32 x 1 matrix with attenuation and delay at each cross point. I 
figure out the mix levels, using DBAP, and the delay levels using the virtual 
source to speaker distances.

I haven’t needed fast moving sounds, but would be great to have frequency 
manipulation at the cross points, and experiment with a Doppler effect. 

Hope that clarifies :)

> On 26 Aug 2019, at 18:36, Jonathan Kawchuk  wrote:
> 
> Hi Richard,
> 
> Very interesting. So there would be a delay consideration per source, not per 
> speaker. Is this already written into the DBAP algorithm or any pan law at 
> that, or do you manually implement. If so, how?
> 
> By the way, in much the same line of thinking, if this gunshot were moving, 
> would you implement a doppler effect or would that be impossible to calculate 
> on a per source basis since it is so listener position dependant?
> On Aug 23, 2019, 2:27 PM -0600, Richard Foss , wrote:
>> Sorry, slow reply Ralph. The way I see it - focus on the virtual source,
>> not the listener position. Wherever the virtual source is positioned in
>> an installation, make the speakers respond as if there was a real source
>> at the virtual source position. If there was a gunshot at the virtual
>> source position, the gunshot should not play immediately from a speaker
>> some distance away from the virtual source position.
>> 
>> A person close to the further speaker (from the virtual source) should
>> hear the louder gunshot from the close speaker (to the virtual source)
>> and the softer gunshot from the further speaker at the same time. If the
>> softer gunshot arrived from the further speaker first, the proximity
>> effect might kick in.
>> 
>> I am talking about a DBAP context, where all speakers play at varying
>> levels, not for example VBAP. As I mentioned, this approach seems to
>> work very well when implemented.
>> 
>> On 2019/08/22 10:18 PM, Ralph Jones wrote:
>>> Richard Foss, I still don’t get it, sorry. Perhaps I’m being obtuse. But to 
>>> clarify, you said:
>>> 
>> for a particular real source
>> channel, delay its play out from a speaker FAR from the virtual source
>> LONGER than from a speaker CLOSE to the virtual source
>>> 
>>> (capitalization mine). Why do you want to delay the signal to the FARTHER 
>>> speaker? How does that help address proximity effect? It seems to me that 
>>> it would only accentuate it.
>>> 
>>> Ralph Jones
>>> ___
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>>> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>> 
>> --
>> Professor Richard Foss
>> Computer Science Department
>> Rhodes University
>> Grahamstown 6140
>> South Africa
>> 
>> Tel: +27 46 6038294
>> Cell: +27 83 288 9354
>> email: r.f...@ru.ac.za
>> 
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Re: [Sursound] Pan Law Irregular Speaker Array

[Jonathan Kawchuk]

Hi Richard,

Very interesting. So there would be a delay consideration per source, not per 
speaker. Is this already written into the DBAP algorithm or any pan law at 
that, or do you manually implement. If so, how?

By the way, in much the same line of thinking, if this gunshot were moving, 
would you implement a doppler effect or would that be impossible to calculate 
on a per source basis since it is so listener position dependant?
On Aug 23, 2019, 2:27 PM -0600, Richard Foss , wrote:
> Sorry, slow reply Ralph. The way I see it - focus on the virtual source,
> not the listener position. Wherever the virtual source is positioned in
> an installation, make the speakers respond as if there was a real source
> at the virtual source position. If there was a gunshot at the virtual
> source position, the gunshot should not play immediately from a speaker
> some distance away from the virtual source position.
>
> A person close to the further speaker (from the virtual source) should
> hear the louder gunshot from the close speaker (to the virtual source)
> and the softer gunshot from the further speaker at the same time. If the
> softer gunshot arrived from the further speaker first, the proximity
> effect might kick in.
>
> I am talking about a DBAP context, where all speakers play at varying
> levels, not for example VBAP. As I mentioned, this approach seems to
> work very well when implemented.
>
> On 2019/08/22 10:18 PM, Ralph Jones wrote:
> > Richard Foss, I still don’t get it, sorry. Perhaps I’m being obtuse. But to 
> > clarify, you said:
> >
> > > > > for a particular real source
> > > > > channel, delay its play out from a speaker FAR from the virtual source
> > > > > LONGER than from a speaker CLOSE to the virtual source
> >
> > (capitalization mine). Why do you want to delay the signal to the FARTHER 
> > speaker? How does that help address proximity effect? It seems to me that 
> > it would only accentuate it.
> >
> > Ralph Jones
> > ___
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> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
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> > edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>
> --
> Professor Richard Foss
> Computer Science Department
> Rhodes University
> Grahamstown 6140
> South Africa
>
> Tel: +27 46 6038294
> Cell: +27 83 288 9354
> email: r.f...@ru.ac.za
>
> ___
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Re: [Sursound] Pan Law Irregular Speaker Array

[Richard Foss]

Sorry, slow reply Ralph. The way I see it - focus on the virtual source, 
not the listener position. Wherever the virtual source is positioned in 
an installation, make the speakers respond as if there was a real source 
at the virtual source position. If there was a gunshot at the virtual 
source position, the gunshot should not play immediately from a speaker 
some distance away from the virtual source position.


A person close to the further speaker (from the virtual source) should 
hear the louder gunshot from the close speaker (to the virtual source) 
and the softer gunshot from the further speaker at the same time. If the 
softer gunshot arrived from the further speaker first, the proximity 
effect might kick in.


I am talking about a DBAP context, where all speakers play at varying 
levels, not for example VBAP. As I mentioned, this approach seems to 
work very well when implemented.


On 2019/08/22 10:18 PM, Ralph Jones wrote:

Richard Foss, I still don’t get it, sorry. Perhaps I’m being obtuse. But to 
clarify, you said:


for a particular real source
channel, delay its play out from a speaker FAR from the virtual source
LONGER than from a speaker CLOSE to the virtual source


(capitalization mine). Why do you want to delay the signal to the FARTHER 
speaker? How does that help address proximity effect? It seems to me that it 
would only accentuate it.

Ralph Jones
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Professor Richard Foss
Computer Science Department
Rhodes University
Grahamstown 6140
South Africa

Tel: +27 46 6038294
Cell: +27 83 288 9354
email: r.f...@ru.ac.za

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Re: [Sursound] Pan Law Irregular Speaker Array

[Ralph Jones]

Richard Foss, I still don’t get it, sorry. Perhaps I’m being obtuse. But to 
clarify, you said:

>>> for a particular real source
>>> channel, delay its play out from a speaker FAR from the virtual source
>>> LONGER than from a speaker CLOSE to the virtual source


(capitalization mine). Why do you want to delay the signal to the FARTHER 
speaker? How does that help address proximity effect? It seems to me that it 
would only accentuate it.

Ralph Jones
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Re: [Sursound] Pan Law Irregular Speaker Array

[Augustine Leudar]

Hi Richard,
I have to admit I am slightly confused by your response and wonder if what
we are both referring too as time alignment and even DBAP are the same
thing. However I am quite distracted at the moment  I am currently working
on my next installation so don't really have time to giver this the
concentration it deserves - perhaps we could have a god chat about this
early September as it is of obvious interest.  PS I will also be PMing you
about another matter,
all the best,
Augustine

On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 18:26, Richard Foss  wrote:

> Just catching up on your comment about time alignment with DBAP, Gus.
>
> I do think its useful to use delays - so for a particular real source
> channel, delay its play out from a speaker far from the virtual source
> longer than from a speaker close to the virtual source. With DBAP the
> source channel will play from all speakers, albeit with different
> amplitudes. For a person in an installation standing close to a further
> speaker, the precedence effect could well come into play without
> appropriate delays, as I see it.
>
> On 2019/08/18 1:26 PM, Augustine Leudar wrote:
> > also you could use rew to eq each individual speaker. There's not much
> > point time aligning DBAP because time align to where ? The beuaty of
> using
> > amplitude panning with irregualr speaker arrays is that there's no sweet
> > spot, especially for walk through installations.
> >
> > On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 12:23, Augustine Leudar <
> augustineleu...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> *should say "the software doesn't know you've placed the speakers in a
> >> line not a circle"
> >> Its a crude work around - but it works if you dont have time to learn
> >> ICST. You can also try jamona.
> >>
> >> On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 12:21, Augustine Leudar <
> augustineleu...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I use ICST in MAx MSP for irregular speaker arrays and it works fine
> even
> >>> though it says its "Ambisonics equivelant panning" if you reduce the
> >>> directivity it basically works like a form of DBAP. It works really
> well,
> >>> Ive made sound sfly through mazes and up and down buildings with it.
> You
> >>> can even use a normal octaphonic panner to make things fly in a
> straight
> >>> line - at the end of the day the sound is traveling from one speaker
> to the
> >>> next - the software doesnt know youve placed the software in a line
> rather
> >>> than a circle.
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 23:33, Jonathan Kawchuk <
> >>> jonathan.kawc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
>  Hey everyone,
> 
>  I’m having a bit of trouble setting up a SPAT Revolution session for
> an
>  irregular speaker array.
> 
> 
>  1. I am working with an irregular array of speakers for an
> installation
>  (see attached, speakers numbered 1-12). The speakers are in a long
> hallway
>  and are irregularly placed in the x, y, and z planed though always
>  overhead. I would like to have sound move with each walker as they
> pass
>  through the hallway by automating sound to move at average human
> walking
>  speed. I am using Speaker 7 as an origin point (0, 0, 0).
> 
>  A. Which is the correct pan law to use? I have tried DBAP and KNN
> but
>  the diagram of each speaker seems to be pointing in the wrong
> direction,
>  esp. at the origin. I would like the speakers to point down towards
> the
>  floor.
> 
>  B. Is it advised to select a single speaker as the origin point?
> 
>  2. I have taken surround impulse responses from an array of 7 speakers
>  in a surround setup approx 19m from the origin. The microphone array
> was
>  7+4 (height) at 1m from the origin. If spatializing in SPAT, would I
> make
>  the convolved signal 19m from the origin (where the speakers played
> the
>  sweep) or 1m (where the microphone array was).
> 
>  3. In either case, would I compute speaker alignment or normalize?
> 
>  4. Are you aware of any products that can calculate multichannel
>  irregular speaker distances/correction curves from a test signal?
> Something
>  like sonarworks or genelec SAM but not proprietary and with the
> ability to
>  calculate actual speaker positions from test signals rather than
> having to
>  scan the room (which I currently do using matterport) or measure by
> hand.
> 
>  Thanks so much,
> 
>  Jon
> 
> 
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> 
> 

Re: [Sursound] Pan Law Irregular Speaker Array

[Richard Foss]

Ralph, I'm thinking of an installation context, where there are many 
listening positions. If a person is standing close to a speaker that is 
some distance from the position of a virtual sound source, you would 
want an appropriate delay in the playback of the sound source from the 
close by speaker. In DBAP it will be at a lower amplitude than the 
speakers close to the virtual source, but the precedence effect could 
well make it appear that the source is at the close by speaker.


For our immerGo immersive sound system I made use of attenuation and 
delays at the cross points of a matrix in each of a number of speakers. 
I found that the incorporation of delays, together with attenuation 
values generated from DBAP, contributed substantially to the 
localization effect.


On 2019/08/20 9:15 PM, Ralph Jones wrote:

I believe this is backwards. For a given listening position, the *closer* 
speaker should be delayed if you want its output to arrive at the same time as 
that from a farther speaker.

Richard Foss wrote:


Just catching up on your comment about time alignment with DBAP, Gus.

I do think its useful to use delays - so for a particular real source
channel, delay its play out from a speaker far from the virtual source
longer than from a speaker close to the virtual source. With DBAP the
source channel will play from all speakers, albeit with different
amplitudes. For a person in an installation standing close to a further
speaker, the precedence effect could well come into play without
appropriate delays, as I see it.


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--
Professor Richard Foss
Computer Science Department
Rhodes University
Grahamstown 6140
South Africa

Tel: +27 46 6038294
Cell: +27 83 288 9354
email: r.f...@ru.ac.za

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Re: [Sursound] Pan Law Irregular Speaker Array

[Augustine Leudar]

Hi Richard
Just arranging nephew flighrs will reply in due course

On Monday, 19 August 2019, Richard Foss  wrote:

> Just catching up on your comment about time alignment with DBAP, Gus.
>
> I do think its useful to use delays - so for a particular real source
> channel, delay its play out from a speaker far from the virtual source
> longer than from a speaker close to the virtual source. With DBAP the
> source channel will play from all speakers, albeit with different
> amplitudes. For a person in an installation standing close to a further
> speaker, the precedence effect could well come into play without
> appropriate delays, as I see it.
>
> On 2019/08/18 1:26 PM, Augustine Leudar wrote:
>
>> also you could use rew to eq each individual speaker. There's not much
>> point time aligning DBAP because time align to where ? The beuaty of using
>> amplitude panning with irregualr speaker arrays is that there's no sweet
>> spot, especially for walk through installations.
>>
>> On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 12:23, Augustine Leudar > >
>> wrote:
>>
>> *should say "the software doesn't know you've placed the speakers in a
>>> line not a circle"
>>> Its a crude work around - but it works if you dont have time to learn
>>> ICST. You can also try jamona.
>>>
>>> On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 12:21, Augustine Leudar <
>>> augustineleu...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I use ICST in MAx MSP for irregular speaker arrays and it works fine even
 though it says its "Ambisonics equivelant panning" if you reduce the
 directivity it basically works like a form of DBAP. It works really
 well,
 Ive made sound sfly through mazes and up and down buildings with it. You
 can even use a normal octaphonic panner to make things fly in a straight
 line - at the end of the day the sound is traveling from one speaker to
 the
 next - the software doesnt know youve placed the software in a line
 rather
 than a circle.

 On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 23:33, Jonathan Kawchuk <
 jonathan.kawc...@gmail.com> wrote:

 Hey everyone,
>
> I’m having a bit of trouble setting up a SPAT Revolution session for an
> irregular speaker array.
>
>
> 1. I am working with an irregular array of speakers for an installation
> (see attached, speakers numbered 1-12). The speakers are in a long
> hallway
> and are irregularly placed in the x, y, and z planed though always
> overhead. I would like to have sound move with each walker as they pass
> through the hallway by automating sound to move at average human
> walking
> speed. I am using Speaker 7 as an origin point (0, 0, 0).
>
> A. Which is the correct pan law to use? I have tried DBAP and KNN
> but
> the diagram of each speaker seems to be pointing in the wrong
> direction,
> esp. at the origin. I would like the speakers to point down towards the
> floor.
>
> B. Is it advised to select a single speaker as the origin point?
>
> 2. I have taken surround impulse responses from an array of 7 speakers
> in a surround setup approx 19m from the origin. The microphone array
> was
> 7+4 (height) at 1m from the origin. If spatializing in SPAT, would I
> make
> the convolved signal 19m from the origin (where the speakers played the
> sweep) or 1m (where the microphone array was).
>
> 3. In either case, would I compute speaker alignment or normalize?
>
> 4. Are you aware of any products that can calculate multichannel
> irregular speaker distances/correction curves from a test signal?
> Something
> like sonarworks or genelec SAM but not proprietary and with the
> ability to
> calculate actual speaker positions from test signals rather than
> having to
> scan the room (which I currently do using matterport) or measure by
> hand.
>
> Thanks so much,
>
> Jon
>
>
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>
>
 --
 Dr. Augustine Leudar
 Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
 Company Number : NI635217
 Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
 Belfast BT88LL
 www.magikdoor.net
 +44(0)7555784775


 --
>>> Dr. 

Re: [Sursound] Pan Law Irregular Speaker Array

[Ralph Jones]

I believe this is backwards. For a given listening position, the *closer* 
speaker should be delayed if you want its output to arrive at the same time as 
that from a farther speaker.

Richard Foss wrote:

> 
> Just catching up on your comment about time alignment with DBAP, Gus.
> 
> I do think its useful to use delays - so for a particular real source 
> channel, delay its play out from a speaker far from the virtual source 
> longer than from a speaker close to the virtual source. With DBAP the 
> source channel will play from all speakers, albeit with different 
> amplitudes. For a person in an installation standing close to a further 
> speaker, the precedence effect could well come into play without 
> appropriate delays, as I see it.
> 

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Re: [Sursound] Pan Law Irregular Speaker Array

[Richard Foss]

Just catching up on your comment about time alignment with DBAP, Gus.

I do think its useful to use delays - so for a particular real source 
channel, delay its play out from a speaker far from the virtual source 
longer than from a speaker close to the virtual source. With DBAP the 
source channel will play from all speakers, albeit with different 
amplitudes. For a person in an installation standing close to a further 
speaker, the precedence effect could well come into play without 
appropriate delays, as I see it.


On 2019/08/18 1:26 PM, Augustine Leudar wrote:

also you could use rew to eq each individual speaker. There's not much
point time aligning DBAP because time align to where ? The beuaty of using
amplitude panning with irregualr speaker arrays is that there's no sweet
spot, especially for walk through installations.

On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 12:23, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:


*should say "the software doesn't know you've placed the speakers in a
line not a circle"
Its a crude work around - but it works if you dont have time to learn
ICST. You can also try jamona.

On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 12:21, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:


I use ICST in MAx MSP for irregular speaker arrays and it works fine even
though it says its "Ambisonics equivelant panning" if you reduce the
directivity it basically works like a form of DBAP. It works really well,
Ive made sound sfly through mazes and up and down buildings with it. You
can even use a normal octaphonic panner to make things fly in a straight
line - at the end of the day the sound is traveling from one speaker to the
next - the software doesnt know youve placed the software in a line rather
than a circle.

On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 23:33, Jonathan Kawchuk <
jonathan.kawc...@gmail.com> wrote:


Hey everyone,

I’m having a bit of trouble setting up a SPAT Revolution session for an
irregular speaker array.


1. I am working with an irregular array of speakers for an installation
(see attached, speakers numbered 1-12). The speakers are in a long hallway
and are irregularly placed in the x, y, and z planed though always
overhead. I would like to have sound move with each walker as they pass
through the hallway by automating sound to move at average human walking
speed. I am using Speaker 7 as an origin point (0, 0, 0).

A. Which is the correct pan law to use? I have tried DBAP and KNN but
the diagram of each speaker seems to be pointing in the wrong direction,
esp. at the origin. I would like the speakers to point down towards the
floor.

B. Is it advised to select a single speaker as the origin point?

2. I have taken surround impulse responses from an array of 7 speakers
in a surround setup approx 19m from the origin. The microphone array was
7+4 (height) at 1m from the origin. If spatializing in SPAT, would I make
the convolved signal 19m from the origin (where the speakers played the
sweep) or 1m (where the microphone array was).

3. In either case, would I compute speaker alignment or normalize?

4. Are you aware of any products that can calculate multichannel
irregular speaker distances/correction curves from a test signal? Something
like sonarworks or genelec SAM but not proprietary and with the ability to
calculate actual speaker positions from test signals rather than having to
scan the room (which I currently do using matterport) or measure by hand.

Thanks so much,

Jon


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--
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
www.magikdoor.net
+44(0)7555784775



--
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
www.magikdoor.net
+44(0)7555784775



--
Professor Richard Foss
Computer Science Department
Rhodes University
Grahamstown 6140
South Africa

Tel: +27 46 6038294
Cell: +27 83 288 9354
email: r.f...@ru.ac.za

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Re: [Sursound] Pan Law Irregular Speaker Array

[Augustine Leudar]

By the way Jonathan,
If I were you Id stick with Spat - its probably the most flexible and
advanced of all spatial audio packages and worth working through the
learning curve- Ive been thinking of swapping over to it for quite a while
myself !!

On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 18:23, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:

> Well DBAP is just amplitude panning on irregular speaker arrays the ones
> ive used it didnt reall matte rwhat direction the speaker was pointing.
>  Im not sure if Spat specifies speaker directions but if I remember when
> Thibaut Carpentier came to Sarc he did show us some flashy spatial reverbs
>  that did take account of which direction the sound source was pointing.
> You could banghim an email and see what he says ,
>
> On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 17:08, Jonathan Kawchuk 
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks so much Augustine! I’m actually taking a lot of existing 3d
>> signals and trying to squish them into this irregular 12 channel setup. HOA
>> and 7.1 mostly as well as signals from Sound Particles so SPAT Revolution
>> has been helpful (though ICST looks amazing), even though Im not automating
>> movement at that point. Trying to keep as much of the workflow channel
>> based as possible.
>>
>> 1. There seems to be an issue with directionality of speakers in SPAT
>> when I select DBAP. Some point left and others point right when really I
>> want them all to point towards the floor. Is this just a user interface
>> problem? Does DBAP treat speakers as omnidirectional?
>> 2. Good to know about not using delays for non-sweet spot dependant
>> projects. Would same go with normalization?
>> 3. Fantastic about REW. Do you know of any tools that can figure out the
>> coordinates of irregular speakers just from a sweep or test signal so I
>> dont have to measure irregular speaker installations by hand?
>>
>> Also looking at GRM Spaces
>>
>> rew
>>
>> Thanks so much,
>>
>> Jon
>> On Aug 18, 2019, 5:26 AM -0600, Augustine Leudar <
>> augustineleu...@gmail.com>, wrote:
>> > also you could use rew to eq each individual speaker. There's not much
>> > point time aligning DBAP because time align to where ? The beuaty of
>> using
>> > amplitude panning with irregualr speaker arrays is that there's no sweet
>> > spot, especially for walk through installations.
>> >
>> > On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 12:23, Augustine Leudar <
>> augustineleu...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > *should say "the software doesn't know you've placed the speakers in a
>> > > line not a circle"
>> > > Its a crude work around - but it works if you dont have time to learn
>> > > ICST. You can also try jamona.
>> > >
>> > > On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 12:21, Augustine Leudar <
>> augustineleu...@gmail.com>
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > I use ICST in MAx MSP for irregular speaker arrays and it works
>> fine even
>> > > > though it says its "Ambisonics equivelant panning" if you reduce the
>> > > > directivity it basically works like a form of DBAP. It works really
>> well,
>> > > > Ive made sound sfly through mazes and up and down buildings with
>> it. You
>> > > > can even use a normal octaphonic panner to make things fly in a
>> straight
>> > > > line - at the end of the day the sound is traveling from one
>> speaker to the
>> > > > next - the software doesnt know youve placed the software in a line
>> rather
>> > > > than a circle.
>> > > >
>> > > > On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 23:33, Jonathan Kawchuk <
>> > > > jonathan.kawc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > Hey everyone,
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I’m having a bit of trouble setting up a SPAT Revolution session
>> for an
>> > > > > irregular speaker array.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > 1. I am working with an irregular array of speakers for an
>> installation
>> > > > > (see attached, speakers numbered 1-12). The speakers are in a
>> long hallway
>> > > > > and are irregularly placed in the x, y, and z planed though always
>> > > > > overhead. I would like to have sound move with each walker as
>> they pass
>> > > > > through the hallway by automating sound to move at average human
>> walking
>> > > > > speed. I am using Speaker 7 as an origin point (0, 0, 0).
>> > > > >
>> > > > > A. Which is the correct pan law to use? I have tried DBAP and KNN
>> but
>> > > > > the diagram of each speaker seems to be pointing in the wrong
>> direction,
>> > > > > esp. at the origin. I would like the speakers to point down
>> towards the
>> > > > > floor.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > B. Is it advised to select a single speaker as the origin point?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > 2. I have taken surround impulse responses from an array of 7
>> speakers
>> > > > > in a surround setup approx 19m from the origin. The microphone
>> array was
>> > > > > 7+4 (height) at 1m from the origin. If spatializing in SPAT,
>> would I make
>> > > > > the convolved signal 19m from the origin (where the speakers
>> played the
>> > > > > sweep) or 1m (where the microphone array was).
>> > > > >
>> > > > > 3. In either case, would I compute speaker alignment or 

Re: [Sursound] Pan Law Irregular Speaker Array

[Augustine Leudar]

Well DBAP is just amplitude panning on irregular speaker arrays the ones
ive used it didnt reall matte rwhat direction the speaker was pointing.
 Im not sure if Spat specifies speaker directions but if I remember when
Thibaut Carpentier came to Sarc he did show us some flashy spatial reverbs
 that did take account of which direction the sound source was pointing.
You could banghim an email and see what he says ,

On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 17:08, Jonathan Kawchuk 
wrote:

> Thanks so much Augustine! I’m actually taking a lot of existing 3d signals
> and trying to squish them into this irregular 12 channel setup. HOA and 7.1
> mostly as well as signals from Sound Particles so SPAT Revolution has been
> helpful (though ICST looks amazing), even though Im not automating movement
> at that point. Trying to keep as much of the workflow channel based as
> possible.
>
> 1. There seems to be an issue with directionality of speakers in SPAT when
> I select DBAP. Some point left and others point right when really I want
> them all to point towards the floor. Is this just a user interface problem?
> Does DBAP treat speakers as omnidirectional?
> 2. Good to know about not using delays for non-sweet spot dependant
> projects. Would same go with normalization?
> 3. Fantastic about REW. Do you know of any tools that can figure out the
> coordinates of irregular speakers just from a sweep or test signal so I
> dont have to measure irregular speaker installations by hand?
>
> Also looking at GRM Spaces
>
> rew
>
> Thanks so much,
>
> Jon
> On Aug 18, 2019, 5:26 AM -0600, Augustine Leudar <
> augustineleu...@gmail.com>, wrote:
> > also you could use rew to eq each individual speaker. There's not much
> > point time aligning DBAP because time align to where ? The beuaty of
> using
> > amplitude panning with irregualr speaker arrays is that there's no sweet
> > spot, especially for walk through installations.
> >
> > On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 12:23, Augustine Leudar <
> augustineleu...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > *should say "the software doesn't know you've placed the speakers in a
> > > line not a circle"
> > > Its a crude work around - but it works if you dont have time to learn
> > > ICST. You can also try jamona.
> > >
> > > On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 12:21, Augustine Leudar <
> augustineleu...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I use ICST in MAx MSP for irregular speaker arrays and it works fine
> even
> > > > though it says its "Ambisonics equivelant panning" if you reduce the
> > > > directivity it basically works like a form of DBAP. It works really
> well,
> > > > Ive made sound sfly through mazes and up and down buildings with it.
> You
> > > > can even use a normal octaphonic panner to make things fly in a
> straight
> > > > line - at the end of the day the sound is traveling from one speaker
> to the
> > > > next - the software doesnt know youve placed the software in a line
> rather
> > > > than a circle.
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 23:33, Jonathan Kawchuk <
> > > > jonathan.kawc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hey everyone,
> > > > >
> > > > > I’m having a bit of trouble setting up a SPAT Revolution session
> for an
> > > > > irregular speaker array.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. I am working with an irregular array of speakers for an
> installation
> > > > > (see attached, speakers numbered 1-12). The speakers are in a long
> hallway
> > > > > and are irregularly placed in the x, y, and z planed though always
> > > > > overhead. I would like to have sound move with each walker as they
> pass
> > > > > through the hallway by automating sound to move at average human
> walking
> > > > > speed. I am using Speaker 7 as an origin point (0, 0, 0).
> > > > >
> > > > > A. Which is the correct pan law to use? I have tried DBAP and KNN
> but
> > > > > the diagram of each speaker seems to be pointing in the wrong
> direction,
> > > > > esp. at the origin. I would like the speakers to point down
> towards the
> > > > > floor.
> > > > >
> > > > > B. Is it advised to select a single speaker as the origin point?
> > > > >
> > > > > 2. I have taken surround impulse responses from an array of 7
> speakers
> > > > > in a surround setup approx 19m from the origin. The microphone
> array was
> > > > > 7+4 (height) at 1m from the origin. If spatializing in SPAT, would
> I make
> > > > > the convolved signal 19m from the origin (where the speakers
> played the
> > > > > sweep) or 1m (where the microphone array was).
> > > > >
> > > > > 3. In either case, would I compute speaker alignment or normalize?
> > > > >
> > > > > 4. Are you aware of any products that can calculate multichannel
> > > > > irregular speaker distances/correction curves from a test signal?
> Something
> > > > > like sonarworks or genelec SAM but not proprietary and with the
> ability to
> > > > > calculate actual speaker positions from test signals rather than
> having to
> > > > > scan the room (which I currently do using matterport) or 

Re: [Sursound] Pan Law Irregular Speaker Array

[Fernando Lopez-Lezcano]

On 8/18/19 4:26 AM, Augustine Leudar wrote:
also you could use rew to eq each individual speaker. 


For eq'ing speakers I use DRC (Digital Room Correction), it is free 
software. Once you have measured impulse responses it will create 
filters that eq the speakers, tons of parameters to tweak if you need to 
(no gui, just a command line thing that is easy to script).


-- Fernando



There's not much
point time aligning DBAP because time align to where ? The beuaty of using
amplitude panning with irregualr speaker arrays is that there's no sweet
spot, especially for walk through installations.

On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 12:23, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:


*should say "the software doesn't know you've placed the speakers in a
line not a circle"
Its a crude work around - but it works if you dont have time to learn
ICST. You can also try jamona.

On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 12:21, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:


I use ICST in MAx MSP for irregular speaker arrays and it works fine even
though it says its "Ambisonics equivelant panning" if you reduce the
directivity it basically works like a form of DBAP. It works really well,
Ive made sound sfly through mazes and up and down buildings with it. You
can even use a normal octaphonic panner to make things fly in a straight
line - at the end of the day the sound is traveling from one speaker to the
next - the software doesnt know youve placed the software in a line rather
than a circle.

On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 23:33, Jonathan Kawchuk <
jonathan.kawc...@gmail.com> wrote:


Hey everyone,

I’m having a bit of trouble setting up a SPAT Revolution session for an
irregular speaker array.


1. I am working with an irregular array of speakers for an installation
(see attached, speakers numbered 1-12). The speakers are in a long hallway
and are irregularly placed in the x, y, and z planed though always
overhead. I would like to have sound move with each walker as they pass
through the hallway by automating sound to move at average human walking
speed. I am using Speaker 7 as an origin point (0, 0, 0).

A. Which is the correct pan law to use? I have tried DBAP and KNN but
the diagram of each speaker seems to be pointing in the wrong direction,
esp. at the origin. I would like the speakers to point down towards the
floor.

B. Is it advised to select a single speaker as the origin point?

2. I have taken surround impulse responses from an array of 7 speakers
in a surround setup approx 19m from the origin. The microphone array was
7+4 (height) at 1m from the origin. If spatializing in SPAT, would I make
the convolved signal 19m from the origin (where the speakers played the
sweep) or 1m (where the microphone array was).

3. In either case, would I compute speaker alignment or normalize?

4. Are you aware of any products that can calculate multichannel
irregular speaker distances/correction curves from a test signal? Something
like sonarworks or genelec SAM but not proprietary and with the ability to
calculate actual speaker positions from test signals rather than having to
scan the room (which I currently do using matterport) or measure by hand.

Thanks so much,

Jon


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___
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--
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
www.magikdoor.net
+44(0)7555784775




--
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
www.magikdoor.net
+44(0)7555784775







___
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account or options, view archives and so on.

Re: [Sursound] Pan Law Irregular Speaker Array

[Jonathan Kawchuk]

Thanks so much Augustine! I’m actually taking a lot of existing 3d signals and 
trying to squish them into this irregular 12 channel setup. HOA and 7.1 mostly 
as well as signals from Sound Particles so SPAT Revolution has been helpful 
(though ICST looks amazing), even though Im not automating movement at that 
point. Trying to keep as much of the workflow channel based as possible.

1. There seems to be an issue with directionality of speakers in SPAT when I 
select DBAP. Some point left and others point right when really I want them all 
to point towards the floor. Is this just a user interface problem? Does DBAP 
treat speakers as omnidirectional?
2. Good to know about not using delays for non-sweet spot dependant projects. 
Would same go with normalization?
3. Fantastic about REW. Do you know of any tools that can figure out the 
coordinates of irregular speakers just from a sweep or test signal so I dont 
have to measure irregular speaker installations by hand?

Also looking at GRM Spaces

rew

Thanks so much,

Jon
On Aug 18, 2019, 5:26 AM -0600, Augustine Leudar , 
wrote:
> also you could use rew to eq each individual speaker. There's not much
> point time aligning DBAP because time align to where ? The beuaty of using
> amplitude panning with irregualr speaker arrays is that there's no sweet
> spot, especially for walk through installations.
>
> On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 12:23, Augustine Leudar 
> wrote:
>
> > *should say "the software doesn't know you've placed the speakers in a
> > line not a circle"
> > Its a crude work around - but it works if you dont have time to learn
> > ICST. You can also try jamona.
> >
> > On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 12:21, Augustine Leudar 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I use ICST in MAx MSP for irregular speaker arrays and it works fine even
> > > though it says its "Ambisonics equivelant panning" if you reduce the
> > > directivity it basically works like a form of DBAP. It works really well,
> > > Ive made sound sfly through mazes and up and down buildings with it. You
> > > can even use a normal octaphonic panner to make things fly in a straight
> > > line - at the end of the day the sound is traveling from one speaker to 
> > > the
> > > next - the software doesnt know youve placed the software in a line rather
> > > than a circle.
> > >
> > > On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 23:33, Jonathan Kawchuk <
> > > jonathan.kawc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hey everyone,
> > > >
> > > > I’m having a bit of trouble setting up a SPAT Revolution session for an
> > > > irregular speaker array.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 1. I am working with an irregular array of speakers for an installation
> > > > (see attached, speakers numbered 1-12). The speakers are in a long 
> > > > hallway
> > > > and are irregularly placed in the x, y, and z planed though always
> > > > overhead. I would like to have sound move with each walker as they pass
> > > > through the hallway by automating sound to move at average human walking
> > > > speed. I am using Speaker 7 as an origin point (0, 0, 0).
> > > >
> > > > A. Which is the correct pan law to use? I have tried DBAP and KNN but
> > > > the diagram of each speaker seems to be pointing in the wrong direction,
> > > > esp. at the origin. I would like the speakers to point down towards the
> > > > floor.
> > > >
> > > > B. Is it advised to select a single speaker as the origin point?
> > > >
> > > > 2. I have taken surround impulse responses from an array of 7 speakers
> > > > in a surround setup approx 19m from the origin. The microphone array was
> > > > 7+4 (height) at 1m from the origin. If spatializing in SPAT, would I 
> > > > make
> > > > the convolved signal 19m from the origin (where the speakers played the
> > > > sweep) or 1m (where the microphone array was).
> > > >
> > > > 3. In either case, would I compute speaker alignment or normalize?
> > > >
> > > > 4. Are you aware of any products that can calculate multichannel
> > > > irregular speaker distances/correction curves from a test signal? 
> > > > Something
> > > > like sonarworks or genelec SAM but not proprietary and with the ability 
> > > > to
> > > > calculate actual speaker positions from test signals rather than having 
> > > > to
> > > > scan the room (which I currently do using matterport) or measure by 
> > > > hand.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks so much,
> > > >
> > > > Jon
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -- next part --
> > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > > URL: <
> > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190817/6e4ed719/attachment.html
> > > > >
> > > > -- next part --
> > > > A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> > > > Name: Arts Common Sound Install.pdf
> > > > Type: application/octet-stream
> > > > Size: 123847 bytes
> > > > Desc: not available
> > > > URL: <
> > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190817/6e4ed719/attachment.obj
> > > > >
> > > > 

Re: [Sursound] Pan Law Irregular Speaker Array

[Augustine Leudar]

also you could use rew to eq each individual speaker. There's not much
point time aligning DBAP because time align to where ? The beuaty of using
amplitude panning with irregualr speaker arrays is that there's no sweet
spot, especially for walk through installations.

On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 12:23, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:

> *should say "the software doesn't know you've placed the speakers in a
> line not a circle"
> Its a crude work around - but it works if you dont have time to learn
> ICST. You can also try jamona.
>
> On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 12:21, Augustine Leudar 
> wrote:
>
>> I use ICST in MAx MSP for irregular speaker arrays and it works fine even
>> though it says its "Ambisonics equivelant panning" if you reduce the
>> directivity it basically works like a form of DBAP. It works really well,
>> Ive made sound sfly through mazes and up and down buildings with it. You
>> can even use a normal octaphonic panner to make things fly in a straight
>> line - at the end of the day the sound is traveling from one speaker to the
>> next - the software doesnt know youve placed the software in a line rather
>> than a circle.
>>
>> On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 23:33, Jonathan Kawchuk <
>> jonathan.kawc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hey everyone,
>>>
>>> I’m having a bit of trouble setting up a SPAT Revolution session for an
>>> irregular speaker array.
>>>
>>>
>>> 1. I am working with an irregular array of speakers for an installation
>>> (see attached, speakers numbered 1-12). The speakers are in a long hallway
>>> and are irregularly placed in the x, y, and z planed though always
>>> overhead. I would like to have sound move with each walker as they pass
>>> through the hallway by automating sound to move at average human walking
>>> speed. I am using Speaker 7 as an origin point (0, 0, 0).
>>>
>>>A. Which is the correct pan law to use? I have tried DBAP and KNN but
>>> the diagram of each speaker seems to be pointing in the wrong direction,
>>> esp. at the origin. I would like the speakers to point down towards the
>>> floor.
>>>
>>>B. Is it advised to select a single speaker as the origin point?
>>>
>>> 2. I have taken surround impulse responses from an array of 7 speakers
>>> in a surround setup approx 19m from the origin. The microphone array was
>>> 7+4 (height) at 1m from the origin. If spatializing in SPAT, would I make
>>> the convolved signal 19m from the origin (where the speakers played the
>>> sweep) or 1m (where the microphone array was).
>>>
>>> 3. In either case, would I compute speaker alignment or normalize?
>>>
>>> 4. Are you aware of any products that can calculate multichannel
>>> irregular speaker distances/correction curves from a test signal? Something
>>> like sonarworks or genelec SAM but not proprietary and with the ability to
>>> calculate actual speaker positions from test signals rather than having to
>>> scan the room (which I currently do using matterport) or measure by hand.
>>>
>>> Thanks so much,
>>>
>>> Jon
>>>
>>>
>>> -- next part --
>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>> URL: <
>>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190817/6e4ed719/attachment.html
>>> >
>>> -- next part --
>>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
>>> Name: Arts Common Sound Install.pdf
>>> Type: application/octet-stream
>>> Size: 123847 bytes
>>> Desc: not available
>>> URL: <
>>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190817/6e4ed719/attachment.obj
>>> >
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Dr. Augustine Leudar
>> Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
>> Company Number : NI635217
>> Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
>> Belfast BT88LL
>> www.magikdoor.net
>> +44(0)7555784775
>>
>>
>
> --
> Dr. Augustine Leudar
> Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
> Company Number : NI635217
> Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
> Belfast BT88LL
> www.magikdoor.net
> +44(0)7555784775
>
>

-- 
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
www.magikdoor.net
+44(0)7555784775
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Re: [Sursound] Pan Law Irregular Speaker Array

[Augustine Leudar]

*should say "the software doesn't know you've placed the speakers in a line
not a circle"
Its a crude work around - but it works if you dont have time to learn ICST.
You can also try jamona.

On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 12:21, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:

> I use ICST in MAx MSP for irregular speaker arrays and it works fine even
> though it says its "Ambisonics equivelant panning" if you reduce the
> directivity it basically works like a form of DBAP. It works really well,
> Ive made sound sfly through mazes and up and down buildings with it. You
> can even use a normal octaphonic panner to make things fly in a straight
> line - at the end of the day the sound is traveling from one speaker to the
> next - the software doesnt know youve placed the software in a line rather
> than a circle.
>
> On Sat, 17 Aug 2019 at 23:33, Jonathan Kawchuk 
> wrote:
>
>> Hey everyone,
>>
>> I’m having a bit of trouble setting up a SPAT Revolution session for an
>> irregular speaker array.
>>
>>
>> 1. I am working with an irregular array of speakers for an installation
>> (see attached, speakers numbered 1-12). The speakers are in a long hallway
>> and are irregularly placed in the x, y, and z planed though always
>> overhead. I would like to have sound move with each walker as they pass
>> through the hallway by automating sound to move at average human walking
>> speed. I am using Speaker 7 as an origin point (0, 0, 0).
>>
>>A. Which is the correct pan law to use? I have tried DBAP and KNN but
>> the diagram of each speaker seems to be pointing in the wrong direction,
>> esp. at the origin. I would like the speakers to point down towards the
>> floor.
>>
>>B. Is it advised to select a single speaker as the origin point?
>>
>> 2. I have taken surround impulse responses from an array of 7 speakers in
>> a surround setup approx 19m from the origin. The microphone array was 7+4
>> (height) at 1m from the origin. If spatializing in SPAT, would I make the
>> convolved signal 19m from the origin (where the speakers played the sweep)
>> or 1m (where the microphone array was).
>>
>> 3. In either case, would I compute speaker alignment or normalize?
>>
>> 4. Are you aware of any products that can calculate multichannel
>> irregular speaker distances/correction curves from a test signal? Something
>> like sonarworks or genelec SAM but not proprietary and with the ability to
>> calculate actual speaker positions from test signals rather than having to
>> scan the room (which I currently do using matterport) or measure by hand.
>>
>> Thanks so much,
>>
>> Jon
>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> Dr. Augustine Leudar
> Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
> Company Number : NI635217
> Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
> Belfast BT88LL
> www.magikdoor.net
> +44(0)7555784775
>
>

-- 
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
www.magikdoor.net
+44(0)7555784775
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