[biofuel] Re: Last word on forests

[Prairie Dog]

Very well said, Hakan!
And yes, I did know that Motie was talking of his own forest and experience,
but no, I didn't catch Keith's note with the info on it from Wilderness
Society.  Being on the Digest version, I sometimes read things in reverse
order.. :-)

I, too, have often wondered if humans will survive either a) our own
actions, and/or b) nature's revenge...   I agree especially with your
sentiment:
> Personally I prefer a managed sustainable world, even
> if it is no chance that I will ever see it.

Thanks, Hakan!  (and Keith and Motie, too!)
-Joel R.



Hakan wrote:
> -Original Message-
> Message: 25
>Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 05:26:39 +0100
>From: Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Last word on forests
>
>
> Dear Joel,
>
> This information was provided earlier by Keith as an argument
> on this issues. Since it is the round for last word, I like to
> clarify my understanding of the discussion.
>
> Motie who is deeply involved with forest management in the area
> where he lives, have some local and particular problems. This
> has to do with how his particular forest works and how different
> interest groups acts with regards to his forest. When I say his
> forest, I mean the forest that he has interest in. Motie made it
> clear from the outset of the discussion, that he was talking
> about his forest and his opinion of what happened there.
>
> Discussing the issue from the outside, made me bringing up
> several points about forest management that was within my
> knowledge and experiences. During this exchange, I became
> fully convinced that Motie knew very well what he talked about
> and he was a responsible and caring representative for the
> forest management interests in his forest. I did of course not
> know his forest and my arguments and convictions had in this
> case to be of general nature.
>
> Keith who is a knowledgeable man in this field, picked up on
> the global aspect, but not without first recognizing Motie's
> competence and that he was the best one to talk for his
> forest.
>
> Said this, I like to add the following last words,
>
> Our nature is a sensitive environment that through millions
> of years developed a balance between the species. When
> some species started to dominate to a level that was not
> sustainable, things happened on both short and long term
> that corrected it. We now have a specie that are growing
> out of proportion, we call them humans and on short term the
> nature already started to try to apply corrections, long term
> nature will succeed.
>
> The impact of the humans is severe and during a very short
> time period they have caused enormous damages. Its survival
> will be totally dependent on responsible and sustainable
> management of nature. If we leave the solutions to nature,
> it will be very painful for the future humans that have to take
> the consequences of todays excesses.
>
> The environmentalist that wants to leave things only to
> nature, must also belive in the natural thinning of the human
> population. They should fight against medicines, transport,
> feeding starving people and all the other things that work
> against the natural control of the human population.
>
> Personally I prefer a managed sustainable world, even
> if it is no chance that I will ever see it. But we all have to
> work against this goal and show some kind of responsibility
> in trying to find a comfortable level for future humans or at least
> give them a chance to survive.
>
> Hakan
>


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Re: [biofuels-biz] skin on biodiesel

[Keith Addison]

Hi Paul, Michael

How do you maintain the heat during the processing hour, Paul?

You're using an aqueous solution of catalyst to make methoxide?

Wouldn't draining off the glycerine as soon as possible also drain 
off some excess methanol?

And doesn't severe emulsification during washing indicate high levels 
of unconverted materials? SG and viscosity testing won't necessarily 
give you an indication of that.

Best

Keith



>- Original Message -
>From: Michael Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] skin on biodiesel
>
>
> > Thanks Paul,
> >
> > I'll try to follow that up.
> >
> > Currently in Thailand, we wash the BD made from stearin with almost
>indecent
> > haste.
> >
> > Of course, if the skin comes from near the BD/glycerol interface, we
>should suspect
> > methanol evaporating from the glycerol. So is the skin on the top of the
>BD or really on
> > top of the glycerol? Others participants have already raised the matter of
> > 1)  whether it is BD soluble or
> > 2) water soluble
> > 3) Affected by separation time,
> > 4) Disappears in the wash.
> >
> > Are we sure we are all talking about the same skin
> >
> > Thanks again Paul - there is nothing like a few facts to muck up a
>perfectly good
> > theory! : - )
> >
> > Michael Allen
> >
> >
>Michael, building new processor . At the moment I make BD in 10l batches in
>15L plastic drums hand shaken. The mix is poured into 20L plastic pails
>where it is stirred intermittently  over a period of an hour. The settling
>time for the glycerine reduces with each stir. As the drums are filled a
>thin skim/film forms on the surface of the BD. This film readily
>redissolves. (perhaps its polimerisation under the influence of the air ).
>The only problems I have had with the BD/glycerine interface is when using
>high levels of alkali (above titration levels) in the single stage alkali
>process. I like to drain the glycerine as soon as possible as extended
>contact of BD/alkaline glycerine tends to form a jelly like material at the
>interface which makes washing very difficult (emulsification). As long as
>the glycerine is drained off early, have found that higher than titration
>levels of alkali give easier washing. Prefer to use higher than titration
>levels of alkali, gives lower yield volume but a Bd with lower SG and
>viscosities.
>
>Hope that helps,
>
>Paul Gobert.


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Re: [biofuel] Last word on forests

[Hakan Falk]

Dear Joel,

This information was provided earlier by Keith as an argument
on this issues. Since it is the round for last word, I like to
clarify my understanding of the discussion.

Motie who is deeply involved with forest management in the area
where he lives, have some local and particular problems. This
has to do with how his particular forest works and how different
interest groups acts with regards to his forest. When I say his
forest, I mean the forest that he has interest in. Motie made it
clear from the outset of the discussion, that he was talking
about his forest and his opinion of what happened there.

Discussing the issue from the outside, made me bringing up
several points about forest management that was within my
knowledge and experiences. During this exchange, I became
fully convinced that Motie knew very well what he talked about
and he was a responsible and caring representative for the
forest management interests in his forest. I did of course not
know his forest and my arguments and convictions had in this
case to be of general nature.

Keith who is a knowledgeable man in this field, picked up on
the global aspect, but not without first recognizing Motie's
competence and that he was the best one to talk for his
forest.

Said this, I like to add the following last words,

Our nature is a sensitive environment that through millions
of years developed a balance between the species. When
some species started to dominate to a level that was not
sustainable, things happened on both short and long term
that corrected it. We now have a specie that are growing
out of proportion, we call them humans and on short term the
nature already started to try to apply corrections, long term
nature will succeed.

The impact of the humans is severe and during a very short
time period they have caused enormous damages. Its survival
will be totally dependent on responsible and sustainable
management of nature. If we leave the solutions to nature,
it will be very painful for the future humans that have to take
the consequences of todays excesses.

The environmentalist that wants to leave things only to
nature, must also belive in the natural thinning of the human
population. They should fight against medicines, transport,
feeding starving people and all the other things that work
against the natural control of the human population.

Personally I prefer a managed sustainable world, even
if it is no chance that I will ever see it. But we all have to
work against this goal and show some kind of responsibility
in trying to find a comfortable level for future humans or at least
give them a chance to survive.

Hakan


At 08:53 PM 12/15/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>Sorry to dredge up an old thread, but I just came across this in The
>Wilderness Society's magazine for 2002-2003:
>
>"Some politicians maintain that conservation groups profess to support
>forest thinning and other preventative measures but then appeal the lion's
>share of the actual plans.Yet in 2001 the U.S. General Accounting
>Office (GAO) found that during the six-month period it reviewed, just over
>one percent of the Forest Service's proposed projects were challenged."
>
>The article quoted environmentalists who propose retaining the largest trees
>and cutting only the small-diameter trees, focusing first on communities
>that have sprung up near forest land.  The timber industry, however, insists
>on going after big trees in remote areas.
>
>One other point: some of those dead trees that have been oft-mentioned
>lately are "bug factories" that are very beneficial to eco-system health.
>Case in point: the three-toed woodpecker, which has recovered due to being
>able to eat those dead trees' inhabitants.
>
>Once again, it is the environmentalist view that is promoting thinning of
>dead brush and small-diameter trees, which improves fire safety for humans
>living in or near the forest, while leaving the forest healthy and intact.
>
>Sorry to start this up again, but I just HAD to...
>-Joel R.
>
>(The Wilderness Society's well-rounded view is at www.wilderness.org )



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[biofuel] Last word on forests

[Prairie Dog]

Sorry to dredge up an old thread, but I just came across this in The
Wilderness Society's magazine for 2002-2003:

"Some politicians maintain that conservation groups profess to support
forest thinning and other preventative measures but then appeal the lion's
share of the actual plans.Yet in 2001 the U.S. General Accounting
Office (GAO) found that during the six-month period it reviewed, just over
one percent of the Forest Service's proposed projects were challenged."

The article quoted environmentalists who propose retaining the largest trees
and cutting only the small-diameter trees, focusing first on communities
that have sprung up near forest land.  The timber industry, however, insists
on going after big trees in remote areas.

One other point: some of those dead trees that have been oft-mentioned
lately are "bug factories" that are very beneficial to eco-system health.
Case in point: the three-toed woodpecker, which has recovered due to being
able to eat those dead trees' inhabitants.

Once again, it is the environmentalist view that is promoting thinning of
dead brush and small-diameter trees, which improves fire safety for humans
living in or near the forest, while leaving the forest healthy and intact.

Sorry to start this up again, but I just HAD to...
-Joel R.

(The Wilderness Society's well-rounded view is at www.wilderness.org )


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Re: [biofuels-biz] Hemp Fuel Conspiracy?

[Appal Energy]

Why not?

> I also wonder about farming (i.e., if a Hemp farmer could make
just
> enough to forestall having to go off-farm for fuel, if this
could be
> worth it to him, just for his own fuel needs... probably not.)

- Original Message -
From: murdoch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Cc: 
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 5:25 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Hemp Fuel Conspiracy?


> Thanks Tim.  Many good things, and I was looking for this part
about
> co-products, which I was glad to see you did get in.  I was not
aware
> that it was so accepted that co-products are what is relatively
more
> profitable from a barrel of oil.
>
> I also wonder about farming (i.e., if a Hemp farmer could make
just
> enough to forestall having to go off-farm for fuel, if this
could be
> worth it to him, just for his own fuel needs... probably not.)
>
> >Ok, a word about co-products. As has been correctly pointed
out here, the majority of profits from a barrel of oil come from
the co-products. The fuel itself is actually quite low value,
comparatively. The same principal will apply to the Biorefinery
envisioned. We will produce ethanol more as a public benefit than
as a profitable venture. The profits will be found in the
co-products and value adding done during processing.
> >
> >Lastly, I wanted to invite you to register and login to the
all new FaFCo portal, www.fuelandfiber.com - I have set up a
whole set of tools for you to use. Perhaps there is something
useful there?
>
>
> Biofuels at Journey to Forever
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> Biofuel at WebConX
> http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm
> List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


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Re: [biofuels-biz] skin on biodiesel

[rpg]

- Original Message -
From: Michael Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] skin on biodiesel


> Thanks Paul,
>
> I'll try to follow that up.
>
> Currently in Thailand, we wash the BD made from stearin with almost
indecent
> haste.
>
> Of course, if the skin comes from near the BD/glycerol interface, we
should suspect
> methanol evaporating from the glycerol. So is the skin on the top of the
BD or really on
> top of the glycerol? Others participants have already raised the matter of
> 1)  whether it is BD soluble or
> 2) water soluble
> 3) Affected by separation time,
> 4) Disappears in the wash.
>
> Are we sure we are all talking about the same skin
>
> Thanks again Paul - there is nothing like a few facts to muck up a
perfectly good
> theory! : - )
>
> Michael Allen
>
>
Michael, building new processor . At the moment I make BD in 10l batches in
15L plastic drums hand shaken. The mix is poured into 20L plastic pails
where it is stirred intermittently  over a period of an hour. The settling
time for the glycerine reduces with each stir. As the drums are filled a
thin skim/film forms on the surface of the BD. This film readily
redissolves. (perhaps its polimerisation under the influence of the air ).
The only problems I have had with the BD/glycerine interface is when using
high levels of alkali (above titration levels) in the single stage alkali
process. I like to drain the glycerine as soon as possible as extended
contact of BD/alkaline glycerine tends to form a jelly like material at the
interface which makes washing very difficult (emulsification). As long as
the glycerine is drained off early, have found that higher than titration
levels of alkali give easier washing. Prefer to use higher than titration
levels of alkali, gives lower yield volume but a Bd with lower SG and
viscosities.

Hope that helps,

Paul Gobert.


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http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Biofuel at WebConX
http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm
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Re: Radiant heating with (bioD or WVO-fired) radiators (was Re: [biofuel]Steel roofing plus other building links -(Wasembodied energy)

[robert luis rabello]

craig reece wrote:

> Heating with biodiesel or SVO would involve a diesel coolant heater, and
> I'm in the beginning stages of calculating how large a unit I'd need,
> but I suspect that a diesel coolant heater would work if it had same
> BTU's that a hydronic heating engineer or contractor would spec for the
> boiler or water heater for  square footage involved.

The system has to be designed to cover heat loss for the house in
question.  We paid an engineer to do what I could have done myself (well,
maybe not--maths have never been my strong point!), but it had to be approved
by the municipal authorities before we installed our boiler.  We ended up
with a 50 000 Btu per hour unit.  The rest of the contractors laughed at our
"toy" boiler!

A 10 kW diesel gen set will surpass this in total waste heat, but I
imagine that less than 30 000 Btu is recoverable from the engine coolant.
However, such a system would utilize the SVO or Biodiesel much more
efficiently than simply burning it for power, which brings down overall
costs.


robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782



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Re: [biofuel] Steel roofing plus other building links -(Was embodiedenergy)

[Hakan Falk]

I have my doubts that it can be used in that way. Maybe on ready surfaces, 
but during the building process?

Hakan

At 05:19 PM 12/15/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>At 02:22 PM 12/15/2002, you wrote:
>
> >Linseed oil as concrete sealer:
> >http://www.flaxcouncil.ca/flaxind 
> 7.htm
>
>
>prevents the breakdown of reinforcing steel.
>
>So an interesting idea would be to coat your rebar with oil before pouring
>your concrete. Then also coat the cured concrete on top to reduce water
>infiltration.
>Caroline
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Biofuels list archives:
>http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
>Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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>
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Re: [biofuel] Steel roofing plus other building links -(Was embodiedenergy)

[Hakan Falk]

I have a problem with this, is it anyone who can point me to the referred 
testing program. Humus is normally the most dangerous enemy of the 
strengthening of concrete. In the past I have many times seen this and 
wonder how the humus in linseed oil can be offset and how it works. The 
company that offer this, do not give more reference than the following:

"Linseed Oil Preserves Concrete, Naturally

Linseed oil effectively preserves concrete surfaces, naturally. A coating 
prevents destructive water and salts from penetrating concrete. It 
stabilizes the smooth concrete surfaces in parking structures, bridges and 
concrete buildings, and prevents the breakdown of reinforcing steel.

A testing program completed at the University of Hong Kong in 1996, proved 
conclusively that linseed oil-based preservatives extend and enhance the 
life of concrete. Linseed oil-based preservatives have significant 
potential in areas such as Hong Kong and other parts of southeast Asia. 
These regions have high concentrations of real estate which is principally 
concrete. "

Not a very scientific or serious reference and I would like to know more 
about the alleged testing program and the results. If true. it must 
probably be applied under some very specific important timing and 
application rules.

Hakan



At 11:22 AM 12/15/2002 -0800, you wrote:

>Linseed oil as concrete sealer:
>http://www.flaxcouncil.ca/flaxind7.htm
>
>
>On Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 09:23 AM, Greg and April wrote:
>
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Grahams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 09:20
> > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Steel roofing plus other building links -(Was
> > embodiedenergy)
> >
> >
> >>  We have dark grey colored
> >> concrete and applied various finishes after it was dry-(once again I
> >> apparently really did a bad job on my concrete research, trusting the
> >> installer- grrr), but have found none that have worked well. Most are
> >> peeling off. Perhaps I will try  plain wax, I just thought it would
> >> be too
> >> slippery.
> >>
> >
> > This may sound silly, but, have you thought of using a dyed drying oil
> > ( the
> > kind that is used for wood finishing )?   I spilled some, one time, and
> > didn't get to it for almost 10-20 minutes, the oil penatrated the
> > concreat
> > ( like it would have with wood ) before I got it all up and then cured
> > /
> > dried, and water just beads up on the area.
> >
> >
> > Greg H.
> >



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Re: [biofuel] More on Catalytic Converters

[Keith Addison]

Diesel Oxidation Catalyst

PM emissions from diesel engines are composed of carbonaceous 
particles, a soluble organic fraction (SOF), sulfates and adsorbed 
water. Oxidation catalysts reduce the SOF fraction and have little 
effect on the carbonaceous portion of PM in diesel exhaust. This 
limits the reduction in PM emissions that an oxidation catalyst can 
achieve. The maximum total particulate matter reduction is dependent 
on the magnitude of the SOF (compared to the carbonaceous portion) in 
the engine-out exhaust, and is usually between 20 and 30% [Harayama 
1992]. Low sulfur fuels and special catalyst formulations are 
required to limit the catalytic generation of sulfate particulates 
from sulfur dioxide present in the exhaust gas.

Diesel Particulate Trap

Diesel traps filter particulate matter from the exhaust stream with 
subsequent oxidation of the filtered particulate. Currently available 
filters for diesel engines are either ceramic wall-flow monolith 
filters or filter tubes covered with multiple layers of a yarn-like 
ceramic fiber material. The filter material contains many pores, or 
small holes, that allow the exhaust gases to pass through while 
collecting the particulate from the raw exhaust.

The particulate matter that is collected by the filter eventually 
needs to be removed. This process is called regeneration. Two general 
approaches for regeneration of the trap have been investigated. One 
approach employed, called a passive system, is the use of catalytic 
material on the filter which causes regeneration, in a continuous or 
periodic manner, during the regular operation of the system. The 
other approach, known as an active system, includes an electric 
heater or fuel burner to periodically raise the filter temperature, 
oxidize the particulate and regenerate the trap, as dictated by an 
electronic control unit.

Diesel traps are very effective in reducing PM emissions. Their 
drawbacks are durability/reliability problems and a decrease in fuel 
economy due to high exhaust gas pressure drop and, in the case of 
active systems, due to the operation of the heater or burner.

Um, unquote. :-)

Keith


>Thanks for the info.  I've checked up on price for a Catalytic 
>Converter for an
>'85 Golf . . . $200+ . . . so how do you know if the one in the 
>junkyard is still
>good? :-)
>
>Also, if anybody knows anything about diesel smog checks . . .
>
>Thanks!
>
>Bruce
>
>--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Spence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > you can get cat converters from any auto store. or even good used ones
>from
> > a wrecking yard. Here in NJ, the state inspections stations have to
> > emissions inspect any vehicle, even the smartass that brought in his
> > electric conversion. the guy spent 5 minutes looking for the 
>tailpipe before
> > the owner fessed up.
> >
> > Steve Spence
> > Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
> > & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
> > http://www.green-trust.org
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > - Original Message -
> > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 1:39 PM
> > Subject: [biofuel] Emissions test and catalytic converter
> >
> >
> > > Hi.  I have been running my '85 VW Golf on 100% biodiesel since this
> > > past August and have been chewing on some emissions issues since
>then:
> > >
> > > First, where can I have my car emissions checked?  I have checked
> > > with Smog Check stations (in the SF Bay Area) and none of them want to
> > > touch a diesel.  My car has over 200,000 miles and may need a tuneup.
> > >  I'd like to get a baseline to see what kind of improvement I'm
> > > getting with biodiesel and how much improvement there would be with a
> > > catalytic converter.
> > >
> > >
> > > Which leads to the next question - where can a find a good catalytic
> > > converter for an '85 Golf?  I understand that use of veggie fuels
> > > allows you to use catalytic converters that would be otherwise
> > > destroyed by the sulfur in petro fuel.  How does this work, and where
> > > might I find one that will work for my car?
> > >
> > > Thanks much for your help.  I look forward to hearing your replies.
> > >
> > > Bruce
 


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[biofuel] Re: [biofuels-biz] Hemp Fuel Conspiracy?

[murdoch]

Thanks Tim.  Many good things, and I was looking for this part about
co-products, which I was glad to see you did get in.  I was not aware
that it was so accepted that co-products are what is relatively more
profitable from a barrel of oil.

I also wonder about farming (i.e., if a Hemp farmer could make just
enough to forestall having to go off-farm for fuel, if this could be
worth it to him, just for his own fuel needs... probably not.)

>Ok, a word about co-products. As has been correctly pointed out here, the 
>majority of profits from a barrel of oil come from the co-products. The fuel 
>itself is actually quite low value, comparatively. The same principal will 
>apply to the Biorefinery envisioned. We will produce ethanol more as a public 
>benefit than as a profitable venture. The profits will be found in the 
>co-products and value adding done during processing.
>
>Lastly, I wanted to invite you to register and login to the all new FaFCo 
>portal, www.fuelandfiber.com - I have set up a whole set of tools for you to 
>use. Perhaps there is something useful there?


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Re: [biofuels-biz] Hemp Fuel Conspiracy?

[murdoch]

Thanks Tim.  Many good things, and I was looking for this part about
co-products, which I was glad to see you did get in.  I was not aware
that it was so accepted that co-products are what is relatively more
profitable from a barrel of oil.

I also wonder about farming (i.e., if a Hemp farmer could make just
enough to forestall having to go off-farm for fuel, if this could be
worth it to him, just for his own fuel needs... probably not.)

>Ok, a word about co-products. As has been correctly pointed out here, the 
>majority of profits from a barrel of oil come from the co-products. The fuel 
>itself is actually quite low value, comparatively. The same principal will 
>apply to the Biorefinery envisioned. We will produce ethanol more as a public 
>benefit than as a profitable venture. The profits will be found in the 
>co-products and value adding done during processing.
>
>Lastly, I wanted to invite you to register and login to the all new FaFCo 
>portal, www.fuelandfiber.com - I have set up a whole set of tools for you to 
>use. Perhaps there is something useful there?


Biofuels at Journey to Forever
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
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http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm
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Re: [biofuel] Steel roofing plus other building links -(Was embodiedenergy)

[Grahams]

At 02:22 PM 12/15/2002, you wrote:

>Linseed oil as concrete sealer:
>http://www.flaxcouncil.ca/flaxind7.htm


prevents the breakdown of reinforcing steel.

So an interesting idea would be to coat your rebar with oil before pouring 
your concrete. Then also coat the cured concrete on top to reduce water 
infiltration.
Caroline

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Re: [biofuels-biz] Things Therrmodynamic

[Steve Spence]

actually, engines will run on a fairly low proof alcohol. as low as 160 or
so. only when making gasohol do you need "anhydrous" ethanol.

Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: "Michael Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 4:08 PM
Subject: [biofuels-biz] Things Therrmodynamic


> Hi Murdoch,
>
> >Ad hoc comment:
> >
> >One of the issues that tugs at me when I have seen recent "debate" (or
> >quasi-science or shouting) over whether some of the biofuels are
> >"sustainable" is that the fuel itself, if it is a relatively simple
> >standardizeable not-horrifically-toxic chemical, is a somewhat
> >*separate issue* from how it is derived.
> >
> >So, a debate over the sustainability of ethyl alcohol as a "fuel of
> >the future", whether it took place in the 30s or today, should include
> >the concept that while it may well be presently sourced from much
> >agriculture or semi-agriculture, I'd think we could somehow
> >*manufacture* such a fuel, going forward, by new innovative methods as
> >well.  What is to prevent us, with all the scientists we have sitting
> >around, from taking some solar-derived electricity and trying to make
> >such relatively simple chemical compounds as ethyl alcohol from widely
> >available chemicals such as water and CO2 and O2 and what-have-you.
>
> Another ad hoc comment:
>
> I guess the problem is just basic thermodynamics really! And you can't
beat it.
>
> Just about every carbohydrate and hydrocarbon that occurs in nature can be
> constructed from water, CO2 and O2 .
>
> The Big Search is to find a series of selective catalysts or enzymes so
you get just the
> one product that you want and not the complete organic catalogue.
>
> Even common yeast hasn't managed to make ethyl alcohol free of by-products
and it has
> been "sitting around" in incredibly large numbers for a lot longer than
"all the scientists".
>
> And of course we humans would rather like alcohol which is free of water
to run our
> vehicles. As it happens, this universe was cobbled together with some
strange little
> quirks. One is called "hydrogen bonding". It is responsible for keeping
water as a liquid at
> most temperature encountered on planet-Earth. And even when it turns
solid, the ice has
> a strange property of floating. (I'm sure you'll agree that both of these
properties are highly
> desirable.)
>
> Well the strangely strong bond between ethanol and water is also (in part)
due to
> hydrogen bonding. So any fermentation or water-based ethanol process has
this big
> energy hole where we try to separate the two. And for those of you who
think that
> moleculart sieve is a kind of angel dust which magically separates water
and ethanol,
> look carefully at the extra energy you have to put into your expensive
dehydrating agent
> just to recycle it. There is no such thing as a free lunch!
>
> Incidentally, the quirky hydrogen bond is also responsible for that
azeotrope between
> ethanol and water. This means that even the earliest humans could make a
relatively
> safe potable spirit from just about anything which will ferment. In
effect, they let botany do
> most of the synthesis from CO2, water and O2 for them using widely
available sun-power.
>
> Perhaps we should simply give up motoring and take up mellow drinking.
It's much easier
> technologically.  : - )
>
> Entropy Rules OK?
>
> [_]?   [_]?   [_]?
>
> Michael Allen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Biofuels at Journey to Forever
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> Biofuel at WebConX
> http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm
> List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


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[biofuel] Key actors in the palm oil business could save Indonesian forests, new WWF report says

[Keith Addison]

http://panda.org/news_facts/newsroom/press_releases/news.cfm?uNewsID=4 
94311, Dec 2002

Key actors in the palm oil business could save Indonesian forests, 
new WWF report says

Download WWF's report on oil palm plantations in Indonesia (1034kb 
Acrobat file)
http://www.panda.org/downloads/forests/oilpalmindonesia.pdf

See also:
Is your ice cream bad for elephants?
http://www.panda.org/news_facts/newsroom/features/news.cfm?uNewsID=4941

Gland, Switzerland - A new report released today by WWF shows that 
key actors in the international palm oil trade chain - investors, 
traders and retailers - could save forests in Indonesia by 
developing, promoting and implementing sound practices in this 
producing country, rather than encouraging destructive ones.

According to the new WWF report, Oil Palm Plantations and 
Deforestation in Indonesia, global demand for palm oil will increase 
from 22.5 million tons per year currently to 40 million tons in 2020.

In order to satisfy this demand, producer countries will need to 
establish 6 million ha of new plantations by 2020, with half of these 
predicted to be in Indonesia.

Unless the institutions that will finance the expansion of the 
sector, and the companies that buy palm oil, insist on sound 
environmental, social and economic practices, WWF is concerned that 
the result will be an expansion of plantations at the expense of 
natural forests in Indonesia - a country that already has one of the 
highest rates of deforestation in the world.

"Oil palm plantations have had a destructive effect on Indonesia's 
threatened natural forests," said Dr Chris Elliott, Director of WWF's 
Forests for Life Programme. "However, if financial institutions that 
fund this industry - and in particular the European ones - would open 
their eyes to the damage being done, it would be perfectly possible 
to find and fund palm oil plantations that do not destroy natural 
forests."

Oil palm plantations have already had a dramatic impact on 
Indonesia's forests, according to the WWF study.

Since 1985, Indonesian oil palm plantations have grown from some 
600,000 ha to more than 3 million ha in 2000, leading to dramatic 
habitat reduction for endangered species such as orang-utans and 
Sumatran elephants.

Often for economic reasons and due to poor governmental control, 
instead of putting oil palm plantations on widely available degraded 
lands, logging and estate companies clear land by setting fire to 
natural forests on their concessions, after having removed all the 
valuable timber and left fire-prone debris.
The cleared land is then converted into crop plantations.

The fast expansion of the oil palm sector has been financed to a 
large extent by European, North American and East Asian financial 
institutions, that, for the most part, rarely try to improve the 
social and environmental practices of their clients.

"It is vital that investors, traders and retailers move towards 
better practices," Dr Elliott added. "Already four Dutch banks have 
adopted a pioneering responsibility policy in their financial 
services to the Indonesian palm oil sector. Swiss retail company 
Migros has also adopted sustainability criteria for its sourcing of 
palm oil, and WWF is hoping that such commitments will serve as 
models to the other companies involved in the palm oil business."

According to the new report, India, China and Pakistan, where palm 
oil is the traditional cooking oil, are the world's largest importers.

The Netherlands, the UK and Germany are Europe's main palm oil 
importers, and the European Union has a share of 17 per cent of the 
global palm oil market.

Palm oil can be found in a wide range of food and non-food products, 
including cosmetics, detergents, confectionery, chocolate, ice cream, 
ready-to-serve meals, and margarine.
<
B>For further information:

Dieter Mueller
Forest Conversion Initiative, WWF-Switzerland
Tel.: +41 1 297 22 25 or +41 79 236 96 20 (mobile)
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Olivier van Bogaert
WWF International
Tel.: +41 22 364 9554
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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[biofuels-biz] Key actors in the palm oil business could save Indonesian forests, new WWF report says

[Keith Addison]

http://panda.org/news_facts/newsroom/press_releases/news.cfm?uNewsID=4 
94311, Dec 2002

Key actors in the palm oil business could save Indonesian forests, 
new WWF report says

Download WWF's report on oil palm plantations in Indonesia (1034kb 
Acrobat file)
http://www.panda.org/downloads/forests/oilpalmindonesia.pdf

See also:
Is your ice cream bad for elephants?
http://www.panda.org/news_facts/newsroom/features/news.cfm?uNewsID=4941

Gland, Switzerland - A new report released today by WWF shows that 
key actors in the international palm oil trade chain - investors, 
traders and retailers - could save forests in Indonesia by 
developing, promoting and implementing sound practices in this 
producing country, rather than encouraging destructive ones.

According to the new WWF report, Oil Palm Plantations and 
Deforestation in Indonesia, global demand for palm oil will increase 
from 22.5 million tons per year currently to 40 million tons in 2020.

In order to satisfy this demand, producer countries will need to 
establish 6 million ha of new plantations by 2020, with half of these 
predicted to be in Indonesia.

Unless the institutions that will finance the expansion of the 
sector, and the companies that buy palm oil, insist on sound 
environmental, social and economic practices, WWF is concerned that 
the result will be an expansion of plantations at the expense of 
natural forests in Indonesia - a country that already has one of the 
highest rates of deforestation in the world.

"Oil palm plantations have had a destructive effect on Indonesia's 
threatened natural forests," said Dr Chris Elliott, Director of WWF's 
Forests for Life Programme. "However, if financial institutions that 
fund this industry - and in particular the European ones - would open 
their eyes to the damage being done, it would be perfectly possible 
to find and fund palm oil plantations that do not destroy natural 
forests."

Oil palm plantations have already had a dramatic impact on 
Indonesia's forests, according to the WWF study.

Since 1985, Indonesian oil palm plantations have grown from some 
600,000 ha to more than 3 million ha in 2000, leading to dramatic 
habitat reduction for endangered species such as orang-utans and 
Sumatran elephants.

Often for economic reasons and due to poor governmental control, 
instead of putting oil palm plantations on widely available degraded 
lands, logging and estate companies clear land by setting fire to 
natural forests on their concessions, after having removed all the 
valuable timber and left fire-prone debris.
The cleared land is then converted into crop plantations.

The fast expansion of the oil palm sector has been financed to a 
large extent by European, North American and East Asian financial 
institutions, that, for the most part, rarely try to improve the 
social and environmental practices of their clients.

"It is vital that investors, traders and retailers move towards 
better practices," Dr Elliott added. "Already four Dutch banks have 
adopted a pioneering responsibility policy in their financial 
services to the Indonesian palm oil sector. Swiss retail company 
Migros has also adopted sustainability criteria for its sourcing of 
palm oil, and WWF is hoping that such commitments will serve as 
models to the other companies involved in the palm oil business."

According to the new report, India, China and Pakistan, where palm 
oil is the traditional cooking oil, are the world's largest importers.

The Netherlands, the UK and Germany are Europe's main palm oil 
importers, and the European Union has a share of 17 per cent of the 
global palm oil market.

Palm oil can be found in a wide range of food and non-food products, 
including cosmetics, detergents, confectionery, chocolate, ice cream, 
ready-to-serve meals, and margarine.
<
B>For further information:

Dieter Mueller
Forest Conversion Initiative, WWF-Switzerland
Tel.: +41 1 297 22 25 or +41 79 236 96 20 (mobile)
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Olivier van Bogaert
WWF International
Tel.: +41 22 364 9554
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Biofuels at Journey to Forever
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Biofuel at WebConX
http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm
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RE: [biofuel] cold weather starting - No starting fluid!

[harley3]

It was a very cold day, and the engine was cranking very slow.  That's when
I remembered the story, how my father use to start an old diesel tractor
with starting fluid.  Heck if I remember how much fluid I used, but it was
to much.  I let the glow plugs warm up, and tried to start the engine.  It
sounded like a back fire.  I tried the starting cycle again.  But I got a
whine, as if the starter was not making contact.  I got out and checked
under the truck.  I could see the starter was hanging down from the engine.
I decided at that time I had used to much starting fluid.   I do remember
saying you dumb sh*t.  When I went to install a new starter.  I looked into
the hole where the starter goes into, and saw the gaping hole where the
teeth were missing.I was very demonized.  I ended up donating the truck
to a local charity that deals with autos.

The jest of the story is, I do not want someone new to diesels to duplicate
my ignorance.   One destroyed starter / starter ring is to much.

Harley
  -Original Message-
  From: Bryan Fullerton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 5:14 PM
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] cold weather starting - No starting fluid!


  I think you used too much.. besides in that engine the torque converter
  doesn't have any teeth.. the flex plate does. The idea is to use just
enough
  to add a little heat in the compression cycle. You dont want to put in so
  much energy that you can blow the thing apart. I suspect you engine may
not
  have been cranking very fast and you had too much starting fluid. The
result
  was the compression from that cylider fired before TDC causeing the piston
  to reverse direction. You may have already had a broken bolt on your
  starter. its not uncommon.  Used carefully starting fluid works just fine
  but it is not a good substitute for poor cranking speed.


  - Original Message -
  From: "harley3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  To: 
  Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 5:51 AM
  Subject: RE: [biofuel] cold weather starting - No starting fluid!


  > Never use "starting fluid" in a diesel engine.  I tried starting fluid
  once
  > in my 6.5 diesel G.M. Suburban.The engine spit the starter out onto
  the
  > ground.My foolish mistake broke the starter, and torn out 5 teeth
off
  my
  > torque converter.  A very expensive mistake, never again.
  >
  > Harley
  >   -Original Message-
  >   From: Bryan Fullerton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  >   Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 3:52 PM
  >   To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
  >   Subject: Re: [biofuel] cold weather starting
  >
  >
  >   Well this is controversial but I have used it on occasion with much
  > success.
  >   I spray a 3 second burst of starting fluid on the air filter element
and
  >   then crank it up.. if youcant get to that then no more then 3 seconds
in
  > the
  >   intake somewhere. air getting pulled past  the starting fluid carries
  the
  >   vapors into the cylinder where they combust quite easily. Starting
fluid
  > is
  >   a hot fuel and must be used very cautiously. If you get carried away
and
  >   spray it all over youcould get in trouble esp if you have a poor
  > electrical
  >   connection somewhere. I would use alot of caution with Gas engines and
  >   extreme caution with older gas engines that have points and condensor.
  >   Usually  I recommend only using starting fluid on older diesels that
are
  >   kinda worn out. If you intend to use your diesel where the air is
really
  >   cold, below 15 degrees F, I would suggest that you double check your
  >   batteries. I think most diesels have two batteries to start. since
  > cranking
  >   speed is very(did I mention VERY) VERY important in its ability to
start
  >   when cold I recommend adding a 3rd battery. It cant hurt and it does
  help.
  > I
  >   have 3 starting batteries in my 6.5(used tobe 6.2) '83 chevy Van. I
also
  >   have 3 or 4 accessory batteries that hook into the circuit soon as I
  start
  >   cranking. before I went to low compression pistons I had no trouble
  > starting
  >   this without even useing the glowplugs till it got down to about 28
  > degrees
  >   F. If youcant go wtih three batteries make sure the two youdo have are
  the
  >   biggest and the best and are preferably less then 3 years old. Good
  > skiing.
  >
  >   PS
  >   Never hurts to have a can of starting fluid in the trunk.
  >
  >   Sincerely,
  >   Bryan Fullerton
  >   White Knight Gifts
  >   www.youcandobusiness.com
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >   - Original Message -
  >   From: "Greg and April" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  >   To: 
  >   Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 9:44 AM
  >   Subject: Re: [biofuel] cold weather starting
  >
  >
  >   > Were do you live?  It used to be in Land Crusiers ( in Canada ) had
  duel
  >   > heavy duty batteries for starting.
  >   >
  >   > Here in Colorado Springs, my father was told by his mechanic to add
a
  >   little

RE: [biofuel] Diesel Sawmill

[desertstallion]

My personal opinion is that for most applications along these lines you
should get electric machinery and then run it from a biodiesel powered
generator. It is a lot more flexible. For example, I have been looking at
oil press machinery and at first thought I would want to power it directly
with a biodiesel fueled Diesel engine. The machinery directly driven with a
Diesel engine was a lot heavier, needed a much heavier foundation to damp
the vibrations, and was more cumbersome. I wanted to be able to move the
press fairly easily from site to site, but the Diesel direct drive required
a 'permanent' concrete foundation, whereas the electric drive unit only
required a steel frame foundation. There seems to me to be little downside
to powering an electric mill with a biodiesel fueled Diesel generator.

Derek


-Original Message-
From: Ben Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 17:21
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [biofuel] Diesel Sawmill

Hello, Does anyone have any advice on purchasing a small portable diesel
band sawmill?The only model I have found is the LT15 by Wood Mizer (which is
a bit out of our budget). Our school is interested in a 8-15hp band sawmill
that can run on biodiesel.  Simple, mostly manual mills are of particular
interest as we are remote from any service operations.  A used mill might be
fine. The wood is Casuarina, and at least as dense as shagbark hickory.
Thanks for any insight you may have! -Ben  Ben K. Falk
Design-Build Manager
The Island School
Cape Eleuthera, Bahamas
www.islandschool.org





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Re: [biofuel] Steel roofing plus other building links -(Was embodiedenergy)

[Neoteric Biofuels Inc]

Linseed oil as concrete sealer:
http://www.flaxcouncil.ca/flaxind7.htm


On Sunday, December 15, 2002, at 09:23 AM, Greg and April wrote:

>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Grahams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 09:20
> Subject: Re: [biofuel] Steel roofing plus other building links -(Was
> embodiedenergy)
>
>
>>  We have dark grey colored
>> concrete and applied various finishes after it was dry-(once again I
>> apparently really did a bad job on my concrete research, trusting the
>> installer- grrr), but have found none that have worked well. Most are
>> peeling off. Perhaps I will try  plain wax, I just thought it would 
>> be too
>> slippery.
>>
>
> This may sound silly, but, have you thought of using a dyed drying oil 
> ( the
> kind that is used for wood finishing )?   I spilled some, one time, and
> didn't get to it for almost 10-20 minutes, the oil penatrated the 
> concreat
> ( like it would have with wood ) before I got it all up and then cured 
> /
> dried, and water just beads up on the area.
>
>
> Greg H.
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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>
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>



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Re: [biofuels-biz] skin on biodiesel

[Michael Allen]

Thanks Paul,

I'll try to follow that up. 

Currently in Thailand, we wash the BD made from stearin with almost indecent 
haste.

Of course, if the skin comes from near the BD/glycerol interface, we should 
suspect 
methanol evaporating from the glycerol. So is the skin on the top of the BD or 
really on 
top of the glycerol? Others participants have already raised the matter of 
1)  whether it is BD soluble or 
2) water soluble 
3) Affected by separation time,
4) Disappears in the wash.

Are we sure we are all talking about the same skin

Thanks again Paul - there is nothing like a few facts to muck up a 
perfectly good 
theory! : - )

Michael Allen


12/12/02 00:39:00, "rpg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Michael,
>have noticed that raw biodiesel from tallow readily forms a skin as it
>cools, but the same BD after washing does not.
>Paul Gobert.
>
>
>Biofuels at Journey to Forever
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>Biofuel at WebConX
>http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm
>List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech:
>http://archive.nnytech.net/
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
> 
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>
>
>
>






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http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
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http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm
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[biofuels-biz] Things Therrmodynamic

[Michael Allen]

Hi Murdoch,

>Ad hoc comment:
>
>One of the issues that tugs at me when I have seen recent "debate" (or
>quasi-science or shouting) over whether some of the biofuels are
>"sustainable" is that the fuel itself, if it is a relatively simple
>standardizeable not-horrifically-toxic chemical, is a somewhat
>*separate issue* from how it is derived.
>
>So, a debate over the sustainability of ethyl alcohol as a "fuel of
>the future", whether it took place in the 30s or today, should include
>the concept that while it may well be presently sourced from much
>agriculture or semi-agriculture, I'd think we could somehow
>*manufacture* such a fuel, going forward, by new innovative methods as
>well.  What is to prevent us, with all the scientists we have sitting
>around, from taking some solar-derived electricity and trying to make
>such relatively simple chemical compounds as ethyl alcohol from widely
>available chemicals such as water and CO2 and O2 and what-have-you.

Another ad hoc comment:

I guess the problem is just basic thermodynamics really! And you can't beat it.

Just about every carbohydrate and hydrocarbon that occurs in nature can be 
constructed from water, CO2 and O2 . 

The Big Search is to find a series of selective catalysts or enzymes so you get 
just the 
one product that you want and not the complete organic catalogue. 

Even common yeast hasn't managed to make ethyl alcohol free of by-products and 
it has 
been "sitting around" in incredibly large numbers for a lot longer than "all 
the scientists". 

And of course we humans would rather like alcohol which is free of water to run 
our 
vehicles. As it happens, this universe was cobbled together with some strange 
little 
quirks. One is called "hydrogen bonding". It is responsible for keeping water 
as a liquid at 
most temperature encountered on planet-Earth. And even when it turns solid, the 
ice has 
a strange property of floating. (I'm sure you'll agree that both of these 
properties are highly 
desirable.)

Well the strangely strong bond between ethanol and water is also (in part) due 
to 
hydrogen bonding. So any fermentation or water-based ethanol process has this 
big 
energy hole where we try to separate the two. And for those of you who think 
that 
moleculart sieve is a kind of angel dust which magically separates water and 
ethanol, 
look carefully at the extra energy you have to put into your expensive 
dehydrating agent 
just to recycle it. There is no such thing as a free lunch!

Incidentally, the quirky hydrogen bond is also responsible for that azeotrope 
between 
ethanol and water. This means that even the earliest humans could make a 
relatively 
safe potable spirit from just about anything which will ferment. In effect, 
they let botany do 
most of the synthesis from CO2, water and O2 for them using widely available 
sun-power.

Perhaps we should simply give up motoring and take up mellow drinking. It's 
much easier 
technologically.  : - )

Entropy Rules OK?

[_]?   [_]?   [_]?

Michael Allen








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Re: [biofuel] Steel roofing plus other building links -(Was embodied energy)

[Hakan Falk]

Dear Caroline,

Then it was not the copper pipes, so it must have been joints,
or he refilled the floor frequently. Copper pipes in tap water with
0.6 mm thickness have average life span of 15 years, 1 mm
thickness 40 years. In a heating system with circulating water
the 0.6 mm also have average life span of 40 years. It is however
much shorter it you use a higher water flow and pressure and in
this case it degenerate fast in 90 degree bends. My guess is that
the unfortunate man either had substandard joints or well over-
dimensioned circulation pump.

With the special plastic pipes, you do not have that problem. But
they are sensitive to the infrared in daylight and can also show some
sensitivities to air exposures. In concrete floor they are very safe.

Changes in water bill can also be changes in energy pricing. The
consumption does not care about the price 1 BTU is 1 BTU. I
do not like this stupid price arguments and unqualified promises.

The fact is that the heated floor is a low temperature radiant system
and as such it gives you maximum future flexibility of choosing
energy source. Correctly done it is a valuable asset, comparable
to a true flexible multi fuel engine.

When you use wood and other high temperature energy sources,
that are difficult to use with a variable output (like the throttle of a car),
you must have an equalizing accumulator in between the source
and the floor. Radiators must have very large surface area to mimic
a low temperature system and will not use the storage/emission
capacity of the building in an efficient way .

Hakan

At 11:49 AM 12/15/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>At 01:01 AM 12/15/2002, you wrote:
> >Graham,
> >
> >Did you already built your new house? Leaking floor in concrete, I
> >hope that you did not install copper pipes in it. It was a long time,
> >around 30 years, since I heard anyone do this.
>
>The unfortunate old man did have copper I think, installed about 12 years
>ago he said.
>
>
> >If the special plastic pipes for heated floors is against your goals,
> >then you take a substantial risk, otherwise
> >http://www.wirsbo.com/
> >and find the distributor in your area.
>
>I bought my system from Rohar- mainly because it was less expensive to get
>a Polaris water heater from them, most efficient I could find, than it was
>to purchase the individual components for the system locally and buy the
>Polaris in  my state.  Another of those philosophical compromises.  Mostly
>I have been satisfied with them, except for a couple of things. One I had
>to argue a bit to get my pump replaced (it was within the warranty), and
>two when I suggested how a small design change on their part could have
>prevented the first pump breakdown (water from a loose pipe fitting leaked
>on the top housing)  they argued that they had never had any problems
>before- it was the plumbers fault. Stupid, the change would have cost
>nothing in materials, just placing it above the pipes or beside rather than
>directly underneath a potentially leaky place- we cover ours with a plastic
>"roof" now just to be on the safe side.  Lastly, in typical sales guy talk,
>he assured me our bills would be $500 a year, given the house specs I gave
>him. Last year they were closer to $800.  We don't even use all the zones-
>storage area thermostat is disconnected, laundry and stored food need no
>additional heat. Plus we supplement with a wood stove in the common area.
>So that rarely comes on.
>
>I grew up with old fashioned radiators. These I loved- a warm spot in each
>room, a place to dry your towels, and the ability to turn on and off each
>one. I thought this would be a modern version. I think I should have
>redesigned some radiators using the pex pipe.  That way they would have
>been accessable and improvable if uses changed- (storage areas, become
>living spaces- some rooms never used but heated anyway because on zone with
>another used room, etc. )
>
>Caroline
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Re: [biofuel] More on Catalytic Converters

[martin]

Get one off of a recently crashed car perhaps?

bruce_leininger wrote:

>Thanks for the info.  I've checked up on price for a Catalytic Converter for 
>an 
>'85 Golf . . . $200+ . . . so how do you know if the one in the junkyard is 
>still 
>good? :-)
>
>Also, if anybody knows anything about diesel smog checks . . . 
>
>Thanks!
>
>Bruce
>
>  
>
-- 
---
Martin Klingensmith
http://nnytech.net/
http://infoarchive.net/




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Re: [biofuel] Radiant heating (was: steel roofing)

[Doug Foskey]

> What do you folks think? (BTW, there sure seems to be a lot of expertise in
> this group on the subject of house construction!  Please keep it
> coming...  :-))
>

Maybe should rename: Energy conscious Biodiesel??

We just are alternative thinkers, thats all.
Doug

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Re: [biofuel] Steel roofing plus other building links -(Was embodiedenergy)

[Doug Foskey]

On Mon, 16 Dec 2002 03:20, you wrote:
> At 01:34 AM 12/15/2002, you wrote:
> >I let my wife read this because I couldn't understand why anyone would get
> >a floor so wet that it would even have an opportunity to drain, and she
> >couldn't understand this either!  I clean all the floors at home using a
> > small vacuum cleaner to get rid of dust, and a steam cleaner I bought at
> > Sears.  We put nothing but fresh water in the steamer, and our floors
> > clean beautifully with this machine.  (We have laminate flooring and tile
> > upstairs, with tile and
> >carpet downstairs.  No, I don't use the steamer on the carpet!)  The
> > slight skim of moisture on the floors when I'm done cleaning evaporates
> > rather quickly.


We are in a red mud area also. I used a different approach. We used stamped 
concrete for the Verandahs (a mold is pressed into the coloured wet concrete 
& gives a look like cobble stones - very durable & cost effective) coloured 
to not show dirt, then used red (ish) hardwood flooring inside, oiled with 
Tung oil. This has worked well.
Doug

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Re: [biofuel] More on Catalytic Converters

[Steve Spence]

part of our yearly inspection is an emissions test. is this what you are
referring to?

any car in the wrecking yard with less than 50k miles should have a
functioning cat converter. new ones are $70

High-flow brick-style ceramic catalyst with 400 cells per square inch.
Stainless steel shell and ends. High-flow brick-style ceramic catalyst (400
cells per square inch). Replaces any converter on vehicles with a maximum
engine size of 5.2L and a maximum vehicle weight of 4,500 lbs. (except
California). For California vehicles, replaces any converter with a maximum
engine size of 5.0L and maximum vehicle weight of 4,500 lbs. Weighs 4-1/2
lbs. 14" long overall. Mounting hardware not included. Designed for '75-98
cars & trucks. Choose 1-3/4", 2", 2-1/4", or 2-1/2" I.D.

http://www.jcwhitney.com/product.jhtml?CATID=14802&BQ=jcw2


Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
http://www.green-trust.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 2:21 PM
Subject: [biofuel] More on Catalytic Converters


> Thanks for the info.  I've checked up on price for a Catalytic Converter
for an
> '85 Golf . . . $200+ . . . so how do you know if the one in the junkyard
is still
> good? :-)
>
> Also, if anybody knows anything about diesel smog checks . . .
>
> Thanks!
>
> Bruce
>
> --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Spence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > you can get cat converters from any auto store. or even good used ones
> from
> > a wrecking yard. Here in NJ, the state inspections stations have to
> > emissions inspect any vehicle, even the smartass that brought in his
> > electric conversion. the guy spent 5 minutes looking for the tailpipe
before
> > the owner fessed up.
> >
> > Steve Spence
> > Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
> > & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
> > http://www.green-trust.org
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > - Original Message -
> > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 1:39 PM
> > Subject: [biofuel] Emissions test and catalytic converter
> >
> >
> > > Hi.  I have been running my '85 VW Golf on 100% biodiesel since this
> > > past August and have been chewing on some emissions issues since
> then:
> > >
> > > First, where can I have my car emissions checked?  I have checked
> > > with Smog Check stations (in the SF Bay Area) and none of them want to
> > > touch a diesel.  My car has over 200,000 miles and may need a tuneup.
> > >  I'd like to get a baseline to see what kind of improvement I'm
> > > getting with biodiesel and how much improvement there would be with a
> > > catalytic converter.
> > >
> > >
> > > Which leads to the next question - where can a find a good catalytic
> > > converter for an '85 Golf?  I understand that use of veggie fuels
> > > allows you to use catalytic converters that would be otherwise
> > > destroyed by the sulfur in petro fuel.  How does this work, and where
> > > might I find one that will work for my car?
> > >
> > > Thanks much for your help.  I look forward to hearing your replies.
> > >
> > > Bruce
> > >
> > >
> > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > >
> > > Biofuels list archives:
> > > http://archive.nnytech.net/
> > >
> > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> > > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
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>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


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[biofuel] More on Catalytic Converters

[bruce_leininger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>]

Thanks for the info.  I've checked up on price for a Catalytic Converter for an 
'85 Golf . . . $200+ . . . so how do you know if the one in the junkyard is 
still 
good? :-)

Also, if anybody knows anything about diesel smog checks . . . 

Thanks!

Bruce

--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Spence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> you can get cat converters from any auto store. or even good used ones 
from
> a wrecking yard. Here in NJ, the state inspections stations have to
> emissions inspect any vehicle, even the smartass that brought in his
> electric conversion. the guy spent 5 minutes looking for the tailpipe before
> the owner fessed up.
> 
> Steve Spence
> Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
> & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
> http://www.green-trust.org
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> - Original Message -
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 1:39 PM
> Subject: [biofuel] Emissions test and catalytic converter
> 
> 
> > Hi.  I have been running my '85 VW Golf on 100% biodiesel since this
> > past August and have been chewing on some emissions issues since 
then:
> >
> > First, where can I have my car emissions checked?  I have checked
> > with Smog Check stations (in the SF Bay Area) and none of them want to
> > touch a diesel.  My car has over 200,000 miles and may need a tuneup.
> >  I'd like to get a baseline to see what kind of improvement I'm
> > getting with biodiesel and how much improvement there would be with a
> > catalytic converter.
> >
> >
> > Which leads to the next question - where can a find a good catalytic
> > converter for an '85 Golf?  I understand that use of veggie fuels
> > allows you to use catalytic converters that would be otherwise
> > destroyed by the sulfur in petro fuel.  How does this work, and where
> > might I find one that will work for my car?
> >
> > Thanks much for your help.  I look forward to hearing your replies.
> >
> > Bruce
> >
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Biofuels list archives:
> > http://archive.nnytech.net/
> >
> > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >


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Radiant heating with (bioD or WVO-fired) radiators (was Re: [biofuel] Steel roofing plus other building links -(Wasembodied energy)

[craig reece]

Caroline,

We're planning on heating our house with hydronic (hot water) radiators
- plumbed with copper under the (wood) subfloor. Obviously not an option
for you - you've already got a hydronically-heated slab. I'm hoping to
heat the water with biodiesel or WVO. There are several companies that
make hydronic baseboard radiators - and they don't look like the old
cast iron steam radiators - they're about 2" thick, and can be ordered
in a variety of lengths and heights. One company that makes them is
Runtal - http://www.runtalnorthamerica.com/

Most people heat the water with natural gas or propane boilers, but you
can also do it with a conventional water heater, either with one
dedicated to the hydronic heating, or with an oversized water heater to
provide both domestic hot water and hydronic space heating needs. And of
course you can pre-heat the water with solar collectors regardless of
the type of final heating of the water.

Heating with biodiesel or SVO would involve a diesel coolant heater, and
I'm in the beginning stages of calculating how large a unit I'd need,
but I suspect that a diesel coolant heater would work if it had same
BTU's that a hydronic heating engineer or contractor would spec for the
boiler or water heater for  square footage involved.

I'm also looking into using the diesel-fired heat exchanger from a
diesel pressure washer for demand-type domestic hot water needs - again
with solar collectors for pre-heating the water. And a small and quiet
diesel generator (inside a soundproofed and fireproof shed) running on
bioD, and eventually WVO, would complete the renewable energy package -
maybe with some PV's as well. And of course there's the possibility of
capturing some exhaust heat from the generator for some water heating -
or to heat the WVO for the generator and/or the coolant heat exchanger
so you could run both  - after starting the generator on bioD and
running it for awhile, then switching over to WVO.

Craig

You wrote:



> I grew up with old fashioned radiators. These I loved- a warm spot in
> each
> room, a place to dry your towels, and the ability to turn on and off
> each
> one. I thought this would be a modern version. I think I should have
> redesigned some radiators using the pex pipe.  That way they would
> have
> been accessable and improvable if uses changed- (storage areas, become
>
> living spaces- some rooms never used but heated anyway because on zone
> with
> another used room, etc. )
>
> Caroline


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Re: [biofuel] Steel roofing plus other building links -(Was embodiedenergy)

[Greg and April]

- Original Message -
From: "Grahams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 09:20
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Steel roofing plus other building links -(Was
embodiedenergy)


>  We have dark grey colored
> concrete and applied various finishes after it was dry-(once again I
> apparently really did a bad job on my concrete research, trusting the
> installer- grrr), but have found none that have worked well. Most are
> peeling off. Perhaps I will try  plain wax, I just thought it would be too
> slippery.
>

This may sound silly, but, have you thought of using a dyed drying oil ( the
kind that is used for wood finishing )?   I spilled some, one time, and
didn't get to it for almost 10-20 minutes, the oil penatrated the concreat
( like it would have with wood ) before I got it all up and then cured /
dried, and water just beads up on the area.


Greg H.



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Re: [biofuel] Radiant heating (was: steel roofing)

[Ken Provost]

Robert writes:

>
>  I cringed at all the concrete we used building this house.  My only
>philosophical relief comes from knowing that we wasted very little
>concrete, whereas a lot drywall, vinyl siding (another compromise
>to suit local building guidelines) and other materials went to the
>landfill.  Most of the dimensional lumber left over will be burned
>this winter to keep my in laws' house warm.  I hope to significantly
>lessen the environmental impact of the next house we build. . .
>
>

I was thinking about maybe a raised floor (crawlspace) using "engineered
wood products" (I-joists) spanning a perimeter foundation. Subfloor could
be Oriented Strand Board or something similar, then a radiant heating system
set into a thin-slab on top of that. Might be a good compromise -- 
less concrete
overall, more wood than a slab floor, but at least wood from small scrappier
trees, and easy access to the plumbing, sewer lines, and wiring underneath.

What do you folks think? (BTW, there sure seems to be a lot of expertise in
this group on the subject of house construction!  Please keep it 
coming...  :-))

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Re: [biofuel] Steel roofing plus other building links -(Was embodied energy)

[Grahams]

At 01:01 AM 12/15/2002, you wrote:
>Graham,
>
>Did you already built your new house? Leaking floor in concrete, I
>hope that you did not install copper pipes in it. It was a long time,
>around 30 years, since I heard anyone do this.

The unfortunate old man did have copper I think, installed about 12 years 
ago he said.


>If the special plastic pipes for heated floors is against your goals,
>then you take a substantial risk, otherwise 
>http://www.wirsbo.com/
>and find the distributor in your area.

I bought my system from Rohar- mainly because it was less expensive to get 
a Polaris water heater from them, most efficient I could find, than it was 
to purchase the individual components for the system locally and buy the 
Polaris in  my state.  Another of those philosophical compromises.  Mostly 
I have been satisfied with them, except for a couple of things. One I had 
to argue a bit to get my pump replaced (it was within the warranty), and 
two when I suggested how a small design change on their part could have 
prevented the first pump breakdown (water from a loose pipe fitting leaked 
on the top housing)  they argued that they had never had any problems 
before- it was the plumbers fault. Stupid, the change would have cost 
nothing in materials, just placing it above the pipes or beside rather than 
directly underneath a potentially leaky place- we cover ours with a plastic 
"roof" now just to be on the safe side.  Lastly, in typical sales guy talk, 
he assured me our bills would be $500 a year, given the house specs I gave 
him. Last year they were closer to $800.  We don't even use all the zones- 
storage area thermostat is disconnected, laundry and stored food need no 
additional heat. Plus we supplement with a wood stove in the common area. 
So that rarely comes on.

I grew up with old fashioned radiators. These I loved- a warm spot in each 
room, a place to dry your towels, and the ability to turn on and off each 
one. I thought this would be a modern version. I think I should have 
redesigned some radiators using the pex pipe.  That way they would have 
been accessable and improvable if uses changed- (storage areas, become 
living spaces- some rooms never used but heated anyway because on zone with 
another used room, etc. )

Caroline

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Re: [biofuel] Steel roofing plus other building links -(Was embodiedenergy)

[Grahams]

At 01:34 AM 12/15/2002, you wrote:
>I let my wife read this because I couldn't understand why anyone would get
>a floor so wet that it would even have an opportunity to drain, and she
>couldn't understand this either!  I clean all the floors at home using a small
>vacuum cleaner to get rid of dust, and a steam cleaner I bought at Sears.  We
>put nothing but fresh water in the steamer, and our floors clean beautifully
>with this machine.  (We have laminate flooring and tile upstairs, with 
>tile and
>carpet downstairs.  No, I don't use the steamer on the carpet!)  The slight
>skim of moisture on the floors when I'm done cleaning evaporates rather
>quickly.

 I used such a machine for my house in town. It was very nice, but 
I will explain the concepts of this house a bit better. First realize it is 
located on a farm-(perhaps more correctly an eventual homestead) in VA. 
Here we have copious amounts of red clay- being tracked in every 
door.  There is no carpeting - this due to the 1" layer of dust/dirt I 
found under my carpet padding in my house in town, removing it after just 
five years of use.  We tend toward allergies I strongly suspect that house 
full of dust mite breeding carpet was a major culprit.  However, we also 
built a large house with room for more than one generation of family- like 
the Walton's. ;) We currently house 7, from 3-83.  I couldn't see running a 
stream machine over all that floor (4500 sqft) - (200sqft is taken up by 
insulation ) I found dumping and refilling the thing to be enough work when 
I just used it on my small kitchen in town.
  The Elder rooms are designed similar to hospital or nursing home 
rooms. These have their drains located near the in room toilets- wonderful 
in the event of a toilet breakdown/repair. I won't explain further, but if 
you visit a nursing home, just notice the lack of carpeting and try to 
figure out why. ;)  I usually just use water and a floor squeegee/ scrubber 
thing,  pushing the water towards the drain. We have dark grey colored 
concrete and applied various finishes after it was dry-(once again I 
apparently really did a bad job on my concrete research, trusting the 
installer- grrr), but have found none that have worked well. Most are 
peeling off. Perhaps I will try  plain wax, I just thought it would be too 
slippery.


>  We have a heat recovery ventilation system that exchanges air and
>controls indoor humidity.

This was "on my list" however, it was not "required" to move in so of 
course it hasn't been added yet. I had a system picked out, but my HVAC 
friend couldn't see how it differed significantly from a "regular" heat 
pump- except it wouldn't heat your house.  After thinking about it I 
wondered that myself- is it just a heat pump with an expensive name?  Joe 
from Building Science advocated them in his books.

>  (I wonder what our electric bill is going to be. .
>.  In our old house, an "all electric" home built in the 1970's, we used 
>around
>20 kW hours per day.  The people at BC Hydro couldn't believe we used so
>"little" power, when they were boasting of "power smart" homes that used more
>than twice what we did.  I thought our power consumption was outrageous. . 
>.  I
>guess perspective is everything!)

I just got a Watt meter from Radio Shack. We have been going around 
measuring each appliance, for a day of use to see how much power each thing 
uses.

Sky tubes were another ...to be added later, perk.  I really need them in 
the middle of the house. Almost all glazing is located on the South  side 
of the house- with a five foot overhang (four was minimum needed, larger to 
make a "porch" was too expensive.) . Rather than windows, to get the amount 
I needed I used sliding glass doors.  This has been great, each bedroom has 
it's own outside access, could have it's own little courtyard/garden.  One 
daughter has a dog door in hers, so her pet can come and go as he wants- 
limited to just her room inside. Last spring we housed baby lambs in a pen 
just outside one child's door to make it easy to feed them round the 
clock.  All that inside -outside does track some dirt, but as the song 
said, "Life in the country is kind a laid back..."

I just found an article about designing a homestead that mentions 
'Grauhotz'- a farmhouse thing that housed people and the animals built in 
the 1700's.  Wonder what this will inspire next?

http://www.countrysidemag.com/issues/1_2002.htm

Caroline


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Re: [biofuels-biz] Digest Number 431

[Thor Skov]

--- biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com wrote:
Message: 1
   Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 19:22:36 +0800
   From: Marc de Piolenc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Taxes are GOOD for you!


>"Following the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, the Wall
Street Journal (9/10/90) reported on >why Japan has
been so much more successful in conserving oil than
the U.S. The report >focused on the role of Japan's
government in coordinating energy programs and
>compelling corporations to install energy-saving
machinery. Yet it managed to overlook >what Ronald
Morse, an energy specialist quoted in the article,
subsequently described to >EXTRA! as the most
important reason of all: a tax policy that keeps
Japanese energy >prices high and demand low."

>Let's not mention that the Japanese economy is in the
toilet – that would be impolite. >Prosperity is
inversely tied to the cost of energy, folks, and
anybody who really believes >that giving the
bureaucracy a dollar or two every time we buy gas at
the pump is going >to help us should move to Europe or
Japan...and keep a stiff upper lip in the face of
>chronic, steadily rising unemployment. 

>When free market prices for a commodity go up, the
extra profit goes into producers' >pockets and
provides an incentive for capital to migrate either to
increase supply or to >provide alternatives. When
prices are raised artificially and the extra cost is
pissed away >by government, the result is economic
stagnation now and worse to come.

Marc de Piolenc
Iligan City, Philippines

Marc,

As I read your post, you make 3 points:
1. Taxes that raise the price of energy above the
“free market” (i.e. untaxed) price create economic
stagnation; because
2. “Prosperity is inversely related to the cost of
energy;” and 
3. Japan’s prolonged recession (approaching a
depression now) is evidence of this phenomenon.
4. “Government bureaucracy” pisses away taxes
uselessly.

Let me offer the following observations.

First, as you are no doubt aware, the price of a
commodity and its cost are not the same thing.  As
Keith pointed out, the cost of petroleum is hardly
reflected in the untaxed price—neither the
environmental/ecological cost, the cost to human
health, the subsidies to the oil industry, nor (for
the US and Europe) the cost of a foreign policy geared
to keeping oil flowing from “friendly” middle eastern
countries.

I don’t know how it is in the Philippines, but in the
U.S., gasoline is severely undertaxed, despite federal
and state taxes.  I would cite as evidence of this the
fact that U.S. consumers, by and large, are not
clamouring for more fuel-efficient vehicles.  The cost
of gasoline is simply not a barrier to driving a
car/SUV that gets 15 mpg.  

The economy in the U.S. certainly does respond to
fluctuations in energy prices, but I would like to see
some evidence for the “inversely proportional”
assertion.  What happens is that, as energy prices go
up, producers at the margin of profitability, or that
engage in energy-intensive activities, may start to
lose money if they cannot find ways to increase their
energy efficiency, and/or the cost of their products
becomes more expensive to consumers.  In response,
alternatives to those products (substitutes) appear
more attractive.  The kicker in the States is
transportation—not production, not heating.  Our
transportation infrastructure depends overly on roads
and automobiles/trucks for moving people and services.

Compare to the EU, which has much higher prices and
taxes on petroleum (not on biodiesel though in Germany
as I understand it) and yet retains some of the
highest worker productivity and design ingenuity in
the world.  Go figure.  On the other end of the scale,
despite at least modest taxes on fuel, the U.S.
nevertheless manages, somehow, to outcompete countries
who have extremely low-priced gasoline, such as
Brunei, Venezuela, Nigeria, and Mexico, (ok, Brunei
was facetious), or widespread cheap alternatives such
as ethanol in Brazil.  And when we lose manufacturing
investment to other countries the reason always cited
is the cost of labor, not the price of energy.

Regarding Japan, I don’t doubt the veracity of Keith’s
observations.  He has been there much more recently
than I.  What I can say is that it’s important to
understand that Japan is hamstrung by a political
crisis, not an economic one.  The economics are simply
a symptom.  The fact is that Japan is unable to reform
its banking sector, which has been in crisis since the
real estate bubble burst in 93, and that has messed
everything else up.  If you want to know more about
why, I’d suggest “The Enigma of Japanese Power” by
Karel van Wolferen as a start.  This book provides
insights into the dynamics of Japanese national
politics as a power struggle between agencies.

Finally, however much one may dislike government,
whether generally or specifically, I would hope for a
more eloquent and engaging line of reasoning that a
blanket assertion that “the bure

Re: [biofuel] Steel roofing plus other building links -(Was embodiedenergy)

[Hakan Falk]

Doug,

I am happy to hear that it works well. Many of this kind of building
techniques are proven during many hundreds of years. If you have
respect for physical laws and understand how they work, they are
all low energy houses. They are also more comfortable than many
of constructions invented the last 150 years.

I wish that we had a little bit more demands on the knowledge in
the construction industry and understanding of traditions. It is
amazing that some of the techniques are not accepted by authorities.
When you have many rural areas and towns that have traditional
constructions, that are between 500 and 1000 years old. Normally
the Building codes only demands that constructions have a 50
years life span.

Hakan


At 10:55 PM 12/15/2002 +1100, you wrote:

> > I have 30 years experience from those special pipes, stands for 98 degree
> > Celsius or more. It can be white / yellow also.
>
> > If you do this, do not ever connect it to any septic system, since the
> > necessary water locks dries out fast in heated floor. Smells bad and it is
> > hard to believe that anyone would do it, but I now live in Spain and here
> > you see most of the things.
>
>You talk a lot of sense, Hakan. I will remember about the dry wastes.
>
> I have built a 4 storey house from dry-stacked Hebel. (Not glued, 
> just
>Cyclone bolts every 900mm max), designed on solar principles (Passive solar)
>in a temperate sub-tropical area. It works very well.
>Doug



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Re: [biofuel] Steel roofing plus other building links -(Was embodiedenergy)

[Doug Foskey]

> I have 30 years experience from those special pipes, stands for 98 degree
> Celsius or more. It can be white / yellow also.

> If you do this, do not ever connect it to any septic system, since the
> necessary water locks dries out fast in heated floor. Smells bad and it is
> hard to believe that anyone would do it, but I now live in Spain and here
> you see most of the things.

You talk a lot of sense, Hakan. I will remember about the dry wastes.

I have built a 4 storey house from dry-stacked Hebel. (Not glued, just 
Cyclone bolts every 900mm max), designed on solar principles (Passive solar) 
in a temperate sub-tropical area. It works very well.
Doug

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Re: [biofuel] Steel roofing plus other building links -(Was embodiedenergy)

[Hakan Falk]

At 10:34 PM 12/14/2002 -0800, you wrote:


>Grahams wrote:
>
> > While I am pleased thus far with the performance of my radiant floors, I am
> > not sure I would get it again, especially in concrete.  I would prefer to
> > have more access to the pipe .
>
> We discussed this issue in depth during the construction of our 
> house.  The
>compromise we made was to put the pipe for the upper floors directly beneath
>the wooden subfloor, while we went with concrete downstairs.  Truthfully,
>however, the extra access is hardly worthwhile, as we'd have to tear the roof
>away from the lower floors to gain access to the pipe.
>
> The people in the business told us that leaking pipe used to be a problem
>when the grey plastic piping was used early in the radiant floor heating
>industry's experience.

Never experienced anyone trying that pipe, but heard about it, softens at 
60 degree Celsius.

>The red / orange plastic pipe they use now is supposed
>to be much more durable, and without joints, has no opportunity to leak when
>placed in concrete.

I have 30 years experience from those special pipes, stands for 98 degree
Celsius or more. It can be white / yellow also.


> > While building my house I met a man looking
> > for someone to repair his system- 2/3's was non functional (leaky).  His
> > also was encased in concrete with a marble tile covering. No one
> > (plumber-HVAC) wanted to mess with it.  I felt bad for him, he seemed like
> > a nice little old man, but my plumber wouldn't go either.
>
> That's awful!
>
> > Also I am wondering about the efficiency of the system due to the way a
> > concrete floor gets "poured" in reality.  Supposedly the concrete wire
> > (which the pipe is attached to) gets pulled up to the middle of the floor
> > as the concrete is being poured. As I watched however, I would say that
> > speed certainly takes a priority, and would be surprised if in many places
> > the wire is not sitting at the bottom of the pad. Also makes me wonder what
> > happened to my under the floor foam insulation as it has been heated by
> > this wire/pex every winter.   I had imagined walking on this heated floor
> > would be like a big sun warmed rock. Uh, not so. The heat only goes out in
> > strips- maybe 8" wide. Beside this warm strip, the floor is "stone" cold.
> > :) Sort of odd to walk on w/o shoes , you find your kids walking on  the
> > little 8"paths.
>
> This is completely contrary to our experience.  We made sure the 
> pipes were
>looped out every 15 cm, and our lower floor is toasty warm--even in the
>carpeted areas.  (The tile flooring feels sultry under bare feet!)  Our
>concrete pad is insulated with that nasty, expensive foam board material.

I restored a 1,100 sqm house without the insulation to utilize the thermal 
mass and it worked fine. Read about the history of this insulation layer on 
our site http://energysavingnow.com/ . It is cheaper and in your case much 
better to have a very simple indoor control system, because of the high 
thermal insulation of straw bales. The combination is a real large energy 
(cost) saver and smart.

>Because heat rises, the lower floor of our house (where my boys have their
>bedrooms) is considerably warmer than the upper floor.  The thermal mass 
>of the
>concrete, once warmed, retains its heat longer, so we have fewer temperature
>swings downstairs.
>
> I cringed at all the concrete we used building this house.  My only
>philosophical relief comes from knowing that we wasted very little concrete,
>whereas a lot drywall, vinyl siding (another compromise to suit local building
>guidelines) and other materials went to the landfill.  Most of the dimensional
>lumber left over will be burned this winter to keep my in laws' house warm.  I
>hope to significantly lessen the environmental impact of the next house we
>build. . .
>
> Meanwhile, everyone around me thinks I'm a fanatic.
>
> >  The room temperature is fine though.  In addition to the
> > solar option, an outdoor wood stove can also be used as an option in
> > suppling the heat for the pipes.
>
> I'd stay away from outdoor wood stoves.  In order for a wood fire to burn
>clean, it has to burn hot.  Those outdoor boilers will "idle" (hence, smolder
>and produce copious amounts of smoke) while waiting for the house to cool
>down.  It may be convenient for the home owner, but it's murderous on air
>quality.
>
> A much better solution is to install a wood gasifying boiler.  They're
>expensive (around $10 000 U.S.), but will likely last a lifetime.  Here's a
>link to check:
>
> http://www.woodboilers.com/woodgas.html
>
> For you cogeneration fans with access to a lot of wood, a steam boiler
>makes a lot of sense wherever the "waste" heat from steam can be used for
>domestic heating and hot water.  Hooked to a large tank for heat storage, a
>decent sized wood boiler might be able to supply all of the household heating
>and electricity requirements--and for a ti