Re: [biofuel] Liberal Bias and Dissent
I belong to nothing to be traitorous about. Or as it was put in Braveheart: I cannot be a traitor since I never swore fealty to the English king.. Substitute any of the following in place of English King Der Fruher The Oil Cartel The Emperor Pimp and Prostitutes Der Komindant The Butcher The Zionists World Domination Strayed Rabid Dogs Caesar Homo Goat Ropers Communism Drug Lords Raving Lunatics Ed __ Things were far better when the biggest question about the activities in the white house was, Which cigar would you recomend for a second date? - Original Message - From: csakima To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 9:50 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Liberal Bias and Dissent Mister Bratt - YOU ARE PART OF A REBEL ALLIANCE AND A TRAITOR handcuff clicks TAKE HIM AWAY -Darth Vader from Star Wars, Episode IV, A New Hope Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: bratt [EMAIL PROTECTED] NEWS YOU WON'T FIND ON CNN WAR ON THE CONSTITUTION By Rafe Husa: 03/21/03 We have bombing and war yet there is no declaration of war. A new Cabinet position (Homeland Security) has been created yet Congress passed neither enabling legislation nor has Congress appropriated funding of such, nor has the Cabinet Member been confirmed by Congress. ---meesage truncated- Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Deep-fried turkey - big pots of oil...
Fad creating headaches for wastewater treatment plant / sewerage works managers... http://www.ci.vallejo.ca.us/GovSite/default.asp?serviceID1=281 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Arrogance of Power
Paul other non-believers: Please leave God out of your discussion! Show some respects toward other members! Thanks you! Political Discussion: It will die down when the war is over, please have patience and also respect each others! When the time change, the topic will be back to BioFuel only! Have patience! Please! Jennifer: Happy to find you are interested in BioFuel like the rest of us. But how come the military is not getting any BioFuel? They are good for commuter buses and transportation? Help us!? And you should know promoting BioFuel is the responsibility of any governments. To find alternative fuel. While the European Governments are working on producing more BioFuel, this Administration is too busy and President Bush is slashing budgets for renewable energy programs! Government can do a lot more than BioFuel group. But the only discussion you can find is here in this group? It saddens me that the Administration cares more on Oil Industry but not the Farming or BioFuel Industry! Never heard a word of encouragement from them to produce more BioFuel or providing equal if not more than the 1.2 Billion funds for Hydrogen program! (Producing from the same Oil Industry maybe?) You are not responsible for this, but if you are following up this subject. You will learn the fact that why only 1% American drives Diesel vehicles while European is 37%(French is 68%). Leaders should lead the people, we are trying to promote BioFuel in the private sector! That is not fair and not for the best interest of American people! BioFuel is cleaner and there are millions of over production crops, if an able government is a good leader for BioFuel. They can do a lot! The farmers with high tech are one of the best, most productive farmers in the world. But the government set quota for them and didn't find a way to help them to produce to full or bigger capacity for making BioFuel! It's such a simple oversight or other conspiracy? Farming and BioFuel deserve more attention. It's equally important to have fossil fuels for people who needs speed and fly airplanes. But for others who only needs for transportation not top speeds, BioFuel is the fuel. It should be the basic fuel, the government should charge more on gasoline(Which we have to pay higher military expense to secure) but free taxation for BioFuel.(Because it's made in USA and cleaner energy) Maybe protectionism is bad to protect domestic industries from foreign import. But considering the hostile oil producing nations, this is another survival fight. Even Military may solve the current urgency, but in the long run a substitute fuel is most important and TOP URGENT World Energy is raising price from $2.87 to $3.40/gallon in SFO? While Biodiesel Industries has price $1.40/gallon out of Vegas. Why are World Energy charging so high? Seeing that gasoline is raising prices, so BioFuel is raising price as well? You should try to lower the price to win more drivers to drive BioDiesel Vehicles!! The BioFuel industry is like the European Union, a body with so many heads with their own interests! You see! When you need the government and they are not there!? If I had to trust my life to the hand of God, or the United States Marine Corp, I'd chose USMC. They have a better record of protecting people from the thugs of this world. Semper Fi Paul Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re:Winter war in Finland
Thor, I have a video card and if it is working, I can start to do the DVDs. At this point it is possible to put them on my server, for you to look at and download. Hakan At 09:16 PM 3/22/2003 -0800, you wrote: Hakan, No apology necessary. I'm glad you followed it up tho. I'm a bit of a WW2 buff, and was curious whether the Luftwaffe actually flew on the side of the Soviets in the winter war. I'd love to see your films some day. Regards, Thor - Message: 18 Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 22:52:39 +0100 From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Winter war in Finland Hi Thor, I just want to come back to an earlier discussion we had. in fairness to your father. Since I did claims in front of the list, I am also posting this. Finally I had an opportunity to look at my father's films from the winter war in Finland once more, had to buy a new VHS, to be able to move them to DVD. A few sequences before the part that show the plane, it is a sequence that is obviously filmed from an aeroplane and it is maybe the same plane with the swastika in the later clip. I had researched the swastika, but did not find any references to Finland, as your father mentioned. My mother is now 84 and have problems with the short memory, but very good memory from things that happened before 3-4 years ago. I asked her about it and this are the answers, Yes, the Germans helped Stalin in the winter war and a couple of them ended up in the hospital where she was. Yes, the Finish had the swastika on their aeroplanes and the plane in the film was probably Finish. Yes, the Germans copied the swastika from the Finish. It seems that I was wrong in my assumption and your father was right. I mixed the above information and made the wrong conclusion about the aeroplane. Give my apologies to your father. Hakan Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Guernica was : Arrogance of Power and a bunch of other war-related threads
Paul, I am still waiting for you, to show your expertise in history and especially your knowledge of the events in and around Guernica. Hakan At 08:31 PM 3/22/2003 +0100, you wrote: Paul, Your comment would have been a little bit constructive, if you tell me why it is not comparable. Both were first experiments in a new kind of terror bombing on foreign soil. Both were aimed not only to test terror bombing, but also to show strength by the perpetrator. Both were aimed to terrorize the population to obedience. So you tell me about Guernica and the difference, since you are so well educated. Hakan At 08:42 AM 3/22/2003 -0800, you wrote: When I saw the shock and awe in TV, one of my first thoughts was about Guernica. If you don't know the difference between what happened in Spain in the 1930's and what's happening in Iraq today, then I suggest you sue you educational system for incompetence. Obviously, you know nothing about history. Paul Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul
Keith, I second this and think that Thor is right. I would be surprised if the members of this list supports name calling anyway, it is not my experience. Paul is only hurting himself and I do not think that it is going to escalate to a general behavior if you allow him to do that. Hakan At 09:25 PM 3/22/2003 -0800, you wrote: Keith, I sincerely hope you don't go through with your threat to censure Paul for his comments. I've believed in the sticks and stones approach to debate. If someone resorts to name calling they pretty much lose their audience (unless you're watching Jerry Springer or Rush Limbaugh) and render themselves ineffective. Personal insults are often the result of frustration from the inability to articulate one's thoughts, or from a lack of a good argument. And censorship looks like, well, censorship. Please reconsider. sincerely, thor skov Message: 15 Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 03:22:14 +0900 From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Arrogance of Power and a bunch of other war-related threads Paul Schwartz wrote: except that you're not a dog, I'm not a dog, and its not only dogs that you are killing. Indeed the colonial histories of the France's, Britain's, Portugal's, Spain, etc. to infinity, don't often look too honourable. So why follow their example? Interesting to note that the howling of dogs provides the only early warning of cruise missiles incoming to Baghdad. Its all they've got. Good, let it be known that if any tyrant chooses to threaten the peace of the world and murder his own people to retain his illegitimate power, then the howling of dogs may be the last thing he hears on this earth. Tyrants and fascists--like Andrew-- Pardon me, are you calling Andrew a tyrant and a fascist? You have two choices: justify that or apologize, onlist, without reservation. Not responding is not an option. No further warnings, do it by tomorrow. beware, if you threaten the peace of the USA and we will unleash the dogs of hell on you. Andy, shut up and go away; no one cares what you think. You are (a) wrong and (b) right out of line. Let's get back to bio diesel. And you will not tell this list what to do. Respond to the above by tomorrow. Defiance would be ill-advised. Your posting privileges have been withdrawn until you settle this satisfactorily. Keith Addison List owner Paul Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul
I am brand new member on this list. When do we start talking about biofuel? From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 13:21:48 +0100 Keith, I second this and think that Thor is right. I would be surprised if the members of this list supports name calling anyway, it is not my experience. Paul is only hurting himself and I do not think that it is going to escalate to a general behavior if you allow him to do that. Hakan At 09:25 PM 3/22/2003 -0800, you wrote: Keith, I sincerely hope you don't go through with your threat to censure Paul for his comments. I've believed in the sticks and stones approach to debate. If someone resorts to name calling they pretty much lose their audience (unless you're watching Jerry Springer or Rush Limbaugh) and render themselves ineffective. Personal insults are often the result of frustration from the inability to articulate one's thoughts, or from a lack of a good argument. And censorship looks like, well, censorship. Please reconsider. sincerely, thor skov Message: 15 Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 03:22:14 +0900 From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Arrogance of Power and a bunch of other war-related threads Paul Schwartz wrote: except that you're not a dog, I'm not a dog, and its not only dogs that you are killing. Indeed the colonial histories of the France's, Britain's, Portugal's, Spain, etc. to infinity, don't often look too honourable. So why follow their example? Interesting to note that the howling of dogs provides the only early warning of cruise missiles incoming to Baghdad. Its all they've got. Good, let it be known that if any tyrant chooses to threaten the peace of the world and murder his own people to retain his illegitimate power, then the howling of dogs may be the last thing he hears on this earth. Tyrants and fascists--like Andrew-- Pardon me, are you calling Andrew a tyrant and a fascist? You have two choices: justify that or apologize, onlist, without reservation. Not responding is not an option. No further warnings, do it by tomorrow. beware, if you threaten the peace of the USA and we will unleash the dogs of hell on you. Andy, shut up and go away; no one cares what you think. You are (a) wrong and (b) right out of line. Let's get back to bio diesel. And you will not tell this list what to do. Respond to the above by tomorrow. Defiance would be ill-advised. Your posting privileges have been withdrawn until you settle this satisfactorily. Keith Addison List owner Paul _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] U.S. INC Was: Robert Rabello: Deficit Spending and Energy Policy
I think you're right. A trade deficit would seem to be like a store having a non-stop sale. The sale of cash ... for a reduced amount of product. Then you give away the store .. and the store goes broke. National Deficit ... I also think you're right. Deficit Spending DOES seem a little like were funding this whole thing of some large credit card. Or rather some large mortgage loan. With all the residential property, business property of the whole United States, and more importantly the slave ownership papers of our future generations, being offered up for Collateral. I think some big economic expert once made that analogy on some radio talk show ... The problem is .. what happens when you can't pay up. Ahem . REPOSSESION. H Don't both seem daunting to fix?? That's IF your trying to fix the problem. Me think Mr. II is NOT trying to fix the problem .. but rather is thinking of the US (as a whole) as a large, massive CORPORATION. That him and his cronies have had enough fun with. And is now trying to sell. Sell all the assets .. sell the name ... and get out. And make a whopping massive profit Problem is ... we on this list are the employees. And what happens when the owners of a company sell out. We're all out of JOBS. Out on the streets. Or in the ocean ... in this case since the geographic U.S. ITSELF is the Corporation's property. Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] --fast forward When a person or an enterprise or a giant nation runs a deficit, the meaning of the word would seem to indicate that at some point, there has to be a payback. In a way, one is borrowing against the future. ---snip Bush II, at present, seems intent on borrowing the people of the United States into oblivion. His so-called tax-cuts are, in my view, proposals to *increase* future gross tax revenues, since ultimately someone will have to pay in the future for money borrowed today. His revisiting of the by spending oodles of money we can stimulate the economy thinking, a brazen and wantonly irresponsible drunkard's philosophy that I thought we put to bed with the end of Reagan's term, has been astonishing. What is he thinking. Can any Conservative seriously believe that this philosophy of government spending has a place in a legitimate fiscally conservative approach to government? What I wonder is whether it would be too much of a stretch to make some connection between the government deficit and the trade deficit. I don't mean to imply that there's a direct causal connection or anything, but isn't it a bit striking that the amounts seem somewhat similar? Don't both seem daunting to fix? Perhaps eliminating the oil portion of the trade deficit might, somehow, also help make it easier to address the Government deficit? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Gasoline From Coal
Aloe, Dave: +We have enough energy for the next 400 years if the damn Yankees don't steal it. You lost that war, remember, so it belongs to us. a damn yankee, Don Strong Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] No Sympathy for Murderous Suicide Bomber Propaganda
Kirk: Your bloated messages are irrelevent to this newsgroup and amount to denial of service spam. Take your myopic political sentiments elsewhere. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] FW: ATM SCAM in Minn.
RE: [biofuel] Re: Arrogance of Power and a bunch of otherwar-related threads
Vern there is a difference between a topic cop and interceding re a flamer. You can't see that? Kirk -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 12:55 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Arrogance of Power and a bunch of otherwar-related threads Respond to the above by tomorrow. Defiance would be ill-advised. Your posting privileges have been withdrawn until you settle this satisfactorily. Keith Addison List owner Lets see you are now the List owner not just the good shepherd you have us believe when you wrote: No, it is not *my* list. I'm it's steward - servant, skivvy. My point is that even you turn to violent threats and ultimatums and can do so because you have the power to do it on this list. What is that old like about power corrupts? I must say that in this case I agree that you have acted correctly but it does let some of the wind out of your anti war position where negotiation is always better than action. Have a good day. Best regards, Vern PS: Perhaps some will enjoy the humor and the moral in the following:
Re: [biofuel] U.S. INC Was: Robert Rabello: Deficit Spending and Energy Policy
I think you're right. A trade deficit would seem to be like a store having a non-stop sale. The sale of cash ... for a reduced amount of product. Then you give away the store .. and the store goes broke. National Deficit ... I also think you're right. Deficit Spending DOES seem a little like were funding this whole thing of some large credit card. Or rather some large mortgage loan. With all the residential property, business property of the whole United States, and more importantly the slave ownership papers of our future generations, being offered up for Collateral. I think some big economic expert once made that analogy on some radio talk show ... Talking of future generations, it seems to me that we hear so much talk of the unborn (mostly though not exclusively from the Republican party), and their concern for the lives of the unborn. Why not concern for not spending the unborn into oblivion before they're even born or conceived? I'd also like to see the big experts return to talking about a Balanced Budget Amendment. Right now the states are in tough circumstances, having to cut spending and raise taxes. Some of those states, I think, have enacted Balanced Budget amendments. One reason their revenue base is in disarray is, arguably, that the Federal Government does not seem as inclined to behave itself. I think an Amendment of some sort is overdue. Doubtless, as soon as it was fresh out of the box, some pretext for temporary suspension of it would be found on grounds of national security, but I'd like to see it in place nevertheless. I think a way to do this might be for some of the states in dire financial circumstances to get together to sue the Federal Government to get its financial house in order, and get some good energy policy going while they're at it, and-or to work for responsible fiscal laws for the Federal Government. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Lots of Guns - U.N memories
couldn't help but remember when this was in the news and the big topic was Cliton put the usa under full control of the U.N. . and no one said a word our troops wear the un insignia and the only person to buck it was a private New. you may be able to find an article on him doing this . the movie black hawk down , that operation was totally under U.N. control , all of this is actually treason according to the united states constitution. regards Robert Steve Spence wrote: actually that would be Brady . Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 9:00 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Lots of Guns - No Butter! Ron was the vegetable. -Original Message- From: Steve Spence [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 6:36 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Lots of Guns - No Butter! Our school food programs went downhill when Reagan replaced vegetable with ketchup. Nobody told him a tomato was a fruit ... Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 12:08 AM Subject: [biofuel] Lots of Guns - No Butter! Lots of Guns - No Butter! Draconian Cuts in School Lunch, Food Stamp and Farm Bill Programs to be decided this Week by the US House of Representatives Call your representatives this week if you care about nutrition and farm program gains from the last Congress. Urge them to protect our society's most vulnerable at this time of national crisis. Tell your representative not to allow proposed cuts in Child Nutrition, Food Stamp and those Farm Bill programs vital to the health of low income children, their families, the environment and family farmers. Call tomorrow. Call the US Capitol Switchboard to get your representative's phone number: 202-224-3121 Ask for the staff responsible for child nutrition programs and/or agriculture. Leave a message if you get voice mail. For more information on the pending cuts, see the March 17 press release from the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities at http://www.cbpp.org/3-12-03bud2-pr.pdf Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.461 / Virus Database: 260 - Release Date: 3/10/2003 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] No Sympathy for Murderous Suicide Bomber Propaganda
Sell me something I will buy. I think the subject line to your email says it all. Any view contrary to yours is SPAM. Don't be so blatantly dishonest. That small text file didn't deny you any service. Too bad you couldn't answer what the author said instead of your childish attempt at manipulation. Kirk -Original Message- From: Stuart Kreitman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 7:43 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] No Sympathy for Murderous Suicide Bomber Propaganda Kirk: Your bloated messages are irrelevent to this newsgroup and amount to denial of service spam. Take your myopic political sentiments elsewhere. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.463 / Virus Database: 262 - Release Date: 3/17/2003 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: Arrogance of Power and a bunch of otherwar-related threads
Hi Kirk, What part of I must say that in this case I agree that you have acted correctly did you not understand? If you would read what I said you may see that I was only pointing out to Keith that he has been carrying water on both shoulders, I assume that as he has not responded he did not take any exception to what I said. You will not find any reference to topic cop in my text as I am aware of Kirk's views on this subject and as it is his list I have two choices, I can accept his rules or I can leave. Best regards, Vern Vern there is a difference between a topic cop and interceding re a flamer. You can't see that? Kirk -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 12:55 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Arrogance of Power and a bunch of otherwar-related threads Respond to the above by tomorrow. Defiance would be ill-advised. Your posting privileges have been withdrawn until you settle this satisfactorily. Keith Addison List owner Lets see you are now the List owner not just the good shepherd you have us believe when you wrote: No, it is not *my* list. I'm it's steward - servant, skivvy. My point is that even you turn to violent threats and ultimatums and can do so because you have the power to do it on this list. What is that old like about power corrupts? I must say that in this case I agree that you have acted correctly but it does let some of the wind out of your anti war position where negotiation is always better than action. Have a good day. Best regards, Vern PS: Perhaps some will enjoy the humor and the moral in the following:
Re: [biofuel] Re: Arrogance of Power and a bunch of other war-related threads
Come on people, this whole left/right wing bickering is getting us nowhere. I'd like to try and make a little sense out of this whole mess, so we can get back to constructive discussions. First and foremost, I think we can all agree that all governments are corrupt. Every one of them is only concerned about its own agenda and there is no limit to what they will do to achieve it. Pointing fingers at other governments is ludicrous to say the least, when they all sleep in the same bed. Next, I am amazed that the majority of Americans can easily see propaganda coming forth from other countries but, here even intelligent, educated folks swallow this bitter media pill like it is candy. Did you know that a great amount of what we see in the news is now generated by advertising agencies. If you don't believe me do a little searching on the Web. http://www.u.arizona.edu/ic/humanities/september11/pages/Public_Opinion/United_States/Propaganda/ http://www.google.com/search?hl=enlr=ie=ISO-8859-1q=ad+agency+propaganda+in+the+u.s.+mediabtnG=Google+Search By now, I'm sure that most of you Republicans are calling me another damn hippee communist but, that is far from the truth. I fought in Vietnam as a machine gunner in a convoy unit (92nd Trans) and I saw all of the Nam and a good sized chunk of Cambodia. While we never stopped long enough to take a body count, I am an excellent shot so I estimate my own kills at between 15-20. I am a patriot but, I cannot support this war. First because, it is Unconstitutional and second this whole charade is no more a war than the last Gulf War was. In 1991, we did not lose one soldier to Iraqui fire and they had a lot more resources then. I do agree that Saddam is a real threat but, that is only to his own people and neighbors and possibly Israel. IMHO, we should have sent in only our Special Forces to capture or kill him or better yet just put a bounty on his head so his own people would be motivated to do the job. Do any of you think that Saddam's own soldiers support his agenda? I think that you will find that most of them follow orders for fear of what would happen if they resist his orders. Finally, I want to say that I think our money would be better spent making peace not war. For every Iraqui killed in this war, many more will become terrorists because that is the propaganda that is being slung in the Arab world. We will never achieve peace through violence in that part of the world, these folks live to die for a just cause. kris book P.S. All through history, the rich have maintained control of the world by convincing the masses that the other guy is the culprit. It's time to wake up and see that we all live under the rich man's thumb and if we'd stop hating each other for a few minutes, control will slip from their grasp. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Fuel filter help?
Hello, I would really appreciate it if someone on this list could help me chose the correct filter size for my VW Jetta '90 non turbo. I know that I use about 7 litres an hour on the highway, but I also know that the pump asks for a lot more fuel than it uses. I am going to purchase a filter for WVO, but I am not sure of how many Gallons per hour it should be able to handle? I look forward to hearing from you. Aidan Wilkins London, Ontario Canada [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul
Mark Ehle wrote I am brand new member on this list. Welcome! When do we start talking about biofuel? Three years ago and ever since, up to now and beyond. There are these links at the bottom of every message, have you checked them? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ When do we start talking about biofuel? So, what do you want to talk about? Start a new discussion of you like, pick up on an old one, ask questions, tell us what you're doing, what your interests are, any problems you're having... Or are you here to listen? No problem, lurkers welcome. Best wishes Keith From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 13:21:48 +0100 Keith, I second this and think that Thor is right. I would be surprised if the members of this list supports name calling anyway, it is not my experience. Paul is only hurting himself and I do not think that it is going to escalate to a general behavior if you allow him to do that. Hakan At 09:25 PM 3/22/2003 -0800, you wrote: Keith, I sincerely hope you don't go through with your threat to censure Paul for his comments. I've believed in the sticks and stones approach to debate. If someone resorts to name calling they pretty much lose their audience (unless you're watching Jerry Springer or Rush Limbaugh) and render themselves ineffective. Personal insults are often the result of frustration from the inability to articulate one's thoughts, or from a lack of a good argument. And censorship looks like, well, censorship. Please reconsider. sincerely, thor skov Message: 15 Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 03:22:14 +0900 From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Arrogance of Power and a bunch of other war-related threads Paul Schwartz wrote: except that you're not a dog, I'm not a dog, and its not only dogs that you are killing. Indeed the colonial histories of the France's, Britain's, Portugal's, Spain, etc. to infinity, don't often look too honourable. So why follow their example? Interesting to note that the howling of dogs provides the only early warning of cruise missiles incoming to Baghdad. Its all they've got. Good, let it be known that if any tyrant chooses to threaten the peace of the world and murder his own people to retain his illegitimate power, then the howling of dogs may be the last thing he hears on this earth. Tyrants and fascists--like Andrew-- Pardon me, are you calling Andrew a tyrant and a fascist? You have two choices: justify that or apologize, onlist, without reservation. Not responding is not an option. No further warnings, do it by tomorrow. beware, if you threaten the peace of the USA and we will unleash the dogs of hell on you. Andy, shut up and go away; no one cares what you think. You are (a) wrong and (b) right out of line. Let's get back to bio diesel. And you will not tell this list what to do. Respond to the above by tomorrow. Defiance would be ill-advised. Your posting privileges have been withdrawn until you settle this satisfactorily. Keith Addison List owner Paul Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Arrogance of Power and a bunch of other war-related threads
Kris, Eloquently put, and I agree absolutely. Craig You wrote: Come on people, this whole left/right wing bickering is getting us nowhere. I'd like to try and make a little sense out of this whole mess, so we can get back to constructive discussions. First and foremost, I think we can all agree that all governments are corrupt. snip Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Arrogance of Power and a bunch of other war-related threads
Respond to the above by tomorrow. Defiance would be ill-advised. Your posting privileges have been withdrawn until you settle this satisfactorily. Keith Addison List owner Lets see you are now the List owner not just the good shepherd you have us believe when you wrote: I've never called myself the good shepherd, and neither has anyone else except you (by which I'm considerably less than charmed). Check it out, do an archive search - all you'll find is YOU. You'll also find there that I've called myself List owner 123 times, but that's news to you? - you want to twist it into a knife and make an issue of it? You're really full of it, aren't you Vern? I'm the list owner, that's all there is to it - that's what Yahoo calls it: Owner. Got it? Hakan recently referred to me as a shepherd, which surprised me a bit, I hadn't thought of it that way - I ended up thinking that sheep are a lot less sheepish than alleged, and not dumb at all. The good shepherd is another matter, and I find your using it obnoxious. No, it is not *my* list. I'm it's steward - servant, skivvy. What I would have you believe when I wrote that it's not *my* list. I'm it's steward - servant, skivvy, is that it's not *my* list, I'm it's steward - servant, skivvy. I do believe it stands quite soundly on its own and as it is without your weird interpretations. My point is that even you turn to violent threats and ultimatums and can do so because you have the power to do it on this list. Violent? It was forceful, it was exactly as forceful as it was intended to be, but it was not violent. Part of being the owner-skivvy of a list is to take action when members get out of line. Paul Schwartz was way out of line in calling Andrew a fascist, and such gratuitous abuse of other members is not allowed here. Here's another part - the bouncer. Clubs have bouncers - at well-managed clubs they're seldom used, but they're there just the same. Here it's seldom used, but it's used when necessary. Just when it's necessary and how it's used has been established through the history of the list, from the first couple of times it happened, with much debate, and subsequent debate. Just to scotch your drift, when a member gets out of line like this I don't care who it is or what his/her views are, he/she will be told to apologise or else. Something similar has happened to someone who'd become a friend, with much prior off-list correspondence: he was warned, he ignored it, out he went. This is how it works: my duties are to the best interests of the list and the issues it represents, and to the individual members until they go against the best interests of the list and the issues it represents. Simple enough. What is that old like about power corrupts? Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. You, being a blind apologist here for exactly that phenomenon, should at least be able to get the quote right. I must say that in this case I agree that you have acted correctly Make up your mind - it was correct or it was corrupt? Which? Choose one. but it does let some of the wind out of your anti war position where negotiation is always better than action. Interpreting again, weird. Where have I said that negotiation is always better than action, or implied that? Provide the exact references please. One of the differences between you and me, Vern, I suspect between all you war-party guys and me, is that I've been waging peace all my life - it's a LOT tougher, more difficult, and more dangerous (physically so) than what you're doing, and it relies on a coherent foundation that does not include pretence, wilful blindness, denial, multiple disconnects and an ever-shifting basis rigged together as you go along. Nor the our's is not to question why ceding of personal responsibility that too often goes with wearing a uniform - that is *supposed* to go with wearing a uniform. And waving a flag: My country right or wrong indeed. We are not ants. Further than that, too often, in too many places, have I seen uniforms used as a badge of authority to cover corruption, crime, brutality. And if these views cause offence, too bad - go and read your Thoreau. Thus I have no automatic respect for the Marines at MATCA, and when reading this: With all of this talk of impending war, many of us will encounter Peace Activists who will try and convince us that we must refrain from retaliating against the ones who terrorized us all on September 11, 2001, and those who support terror. ... no respect at all. Are they perhaps among the 42% of Americans who now believe Saddam Hussein was responsible for the Sept 11 attacks and not Osama bin Laden (heard of him?). let alone Afghanistan (since more or less abandoned to its fate, like the last time)? Let alone the civilians now being bombed in Iraq? The only way you can believe that is via pretence, wilful blindness, denial, multiple disconnects and an ever-shifting
Re: [biofuel] Re: Arrogance of Power and a bunch of other war-related threads
Hi Andrew except that you're not a dog, I'm not a dog, and its not only dogs that you are killing. Indeed the colonial histories of the France's, Britain's, Portugal's, Spain, etc. to infinity, don't often look too honourable. So why follow their example? Interesting to note that the howling of dogs provides the only early warning of cruise missiles incoming to Baghdad. Its all they've got. Good, let it be known that if any tyrant chooses to threaten the peace of the world and murder his own people to retain his illegitimate power, then the howling of dogs may be the last thing he hears on this earth. Tyrants and fascists--like Andrew--beware, if you threaten the peace of the USA and we will unleash the dogs of hell on you. Andy, shut up and go away; no one cares what you think. Let's get back to bio diesel. Paul Part of a strange message received off-list from Paul: I'll point out I did apologize to Andrew, on list and without reservation, but I was booted before it could be posted. Please forward my apology to him, if you will. Please note that he was NOT booted. Best wishes Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Arrogance of Power and a bunch of other war-related threads
+ And you will not tell this list what to do. Respond to the above by tomorrow. Defiance would be ill-advised. Your posting privileges have been withdrawn until you settle this satisfactorily. Keith Addison List owner +++ A-H, the topic cop comes out of the bushes. Don Strong Yes, Don Strong, you are a confused person, as I said before. Please now explain (and please make sure that you do) how disciplining an out-of-line list member who has directed gratuitous abuse at another member is being a topic cop? Also, re this: + And you will not tell this list what to do. How is this being a topic cop? Please explain exactly why you left out what it was a response to - this: Let's get back to bio diesel. And you will not tell this list what to do. How is countering a wannabe topic cop being a topic cop? If you now wish to allege (I can see you coming, it's easy) that I have disciplined Paul Schwartz because of his views (which you share), I'll require you to provide susbstantive evidence of that, and disproof of this, from my current message to Vern: Just to scotch your drift, when a member gets out of line like this I don't care who it is or what his/her views are, he/she will be told to apologise or else. Something similar has happened to someone who'd become a friend, with much prior off-list correspondence: he was warned, he ignored it, out he went. This is how it works: my duties are to the best interests of the list and the issues it represents, and to the individual members until they go against the best interests of the list and the issues it represents. Simple enough. In responding to this message I advise you to abandon your normal style of selectively snipping anything you find disagreeable and pretending it never existed. Keith Addison List owner Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul
Hello Thor, Hakan Keith, I second this and think that Thor is right. I would be surprised if the members of this list supports name calling anyway, it is not my experience. Paul is only hurting himself and I do not think that it is going to escalate to a general behavior if you allow him to do that. Hakan At 09:25 PM 3/22/2003 -0800, you wrote: Keith, I sincerely hope you don't go through with your threat to censure Paul for his comments. I've believed in the sticks and stones approach to debate. If someone resorts to name calling they pretty much lose their audience (unless you're watching Jerry Springer or Rush Limbaugh) and render themselves ineffective. Personal insults are often the result of frustration from the inability to articulate one's thoughts, or from a lack of a good argument. And censorship looks like, well, censorship. Please reconsider. sincerely, thor skov First, I did not ban him. Please take note: I did not ban Paul, and said or did nothing to indicate that I had. I withdrew his posting privileges until he'd apologized to Andrew for abusing him so gratuitously, or given a satisfactory explanation for it. That is quite different to banning him. He is still a list member, he still receives list messages. Otherwise, I agree with you, but list members should not abuse other members, if they do I'll take action. There is no censorship issue here (but see below). These lists are not public places where people automatically have rights - the right to freedom of speech etc. They're much more like private clubs, after all you have to subscribe (even though it's free). Subscription doesn't give you rights, it gives you privileges. With the privileges come obligations: ignore the obligations and you lose the privileges, it's that simple. It's fully agreed on the list owners' lists that subscription constitutes an agreement to abide by the group rules. We don't make much of an issue about rules here, there aren't very many of them, it's mostly netiquette. But this matter of abuse is one rule, with enough precedent behind it - it's well known that I don't allow abuse. Of course the conclusion most of the war party here has jumped to, including Paul Schwartz, is that I've thumped him because of his views. Withdrawing his posting privileges has nothing to do with suppressing his views (I think we might manage to survive them somehow, LOL!), but they're all going to believe that no matter what. So let them, it's what they do after all, believe stuff they need to believe no matter what. My message to Paul says: Your posting privileges have been withdrawn until you settle this satisfactorily. Paul wrote me a confused letter (see my other message, Disconnects - was Re: [biofuel] Arrogance of Power) asking me to forward his unreserved apology to Andrew, and so, despite his strange ineptness in not delivering it himself, his posting privileges have now been restored. I'd guess that he was expecting to be censored for his views, maybe even aiming for that, and was all too ready to misconstrue what was happening when he got disciplined for unacceptable behaviour instead. Well, these guys thumping Paul's barrel haven't proven too good so far at seeing what it says in front of them in black and white - that would make their lives much more difficult, wouldn't it? Regarding censorship - who do you think it is that keeps calling for censorship? The war party, of course - freedom of speech just as long as it freely expresses their views only, and suppression and censorship of any dissenting view. They call it More evenhandedness and so on. This is what Paul Schwartz said in his message to me: Frankly, you should have stopped the political threads the moment it started. They were off-topic and inflammatory... If you want a good list you should stop these things before they start. You should state clearly in the rules that these types of postings will not be tolerated. Frankly, my outburst was caused by your inaction... He attacks me for suppressing his opinions, which I didn't do, but then he calls for censorship - that's what he'd do, and I'm wrong for not doing it. And we have to listen to all this noisy and illogical junk from this small minority of a minority and take it seriously and do what we're told? They ALL demand restriction of views other than their own, all of them. And we have to listen to it and keep on and on trying to explain things to them, again and again, while they studiously ignore anything that might not sit well with their version of the current movie? These people complain so loudly about off-topic political posts, but who exactly is it who's responsible if not them? Why should we put up with it? You, Thor, Robert and others have posted messages here which crystallise the majority view, many offlist messages confirm that, but we all have to knuckle down and listen to these people, defer to them,
Disconnects - was Re: [biofuel] Arrogance of Power
Hello Todd and all - Original Message - From: Paul Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 11:47 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Arrogance of Power snip Let's get back on topic. Paul And then he posts four more times off topic. Go figure. Captain Jennifer also did that: My last word on this subject... Next message: PS..at NO POINT did I mention Treason... Next message: Dear Harley... - last-word promises all forgotten by now. (Fine critters, goldfish...) But then who ever said that arch conservative types play by any rules but the ones they make up as they go. We're getting some real textbook examples of that, eh? A bit of a blood thirsty chap and none too prone towards historical accuracy to boot. Todd Swearingen And a bit disconnected too. I got a thoroughly strange off-list message from the guy saying this: You know, after a week or two of USA bashing, bashing of those who support and defend this country and 24 hours of me defending my country and its leaders what happens, I get kicked off. So much for diversity of opinion. Never mind all the same old usual disconnects with USA bashing etc - Thor and Robert, Americans both, have responded to that more than adequately: the point is HE WASN'T KICKED OFF! And still hasn't been. And *of course* he thinks he's been disciplined because of his opinion - how inconvenient it would be otherwise, to see it for what it is: nothing to do with opinion, but with the gratuitous abuse of another member. Yet he says he did apologise to Andrew, both on-list and without reservation (but would he ever have done so had he not been told to? - no way) - but he got booted before it could be posted. Nope - my message had told him his posting privileges had been suspended, so what a surprise when he finds he can't post. Every message contains this in the header: contact [EMAIL PROTECTED], and indeed that's who his message to me was addressed to - but he didn't try to send the apology there. He did, however, cc his message to me to Harley and Capt Jennifer USAF. Also a fairly textbook example of the tortured logic by which the war-party rationalises its irrational behaviour. Just as long as they're all happy, never mind who else gets dead somehow. Most weirdly, Paul says it's all my fault, LOL! Frankly, you should have stopped the political threads the moment it started. They were off-topic and inflammatory. I'm sorry you and I don't see eye to eye on the politics But, like I said, I didn't start it. All I really wanted to do was end the political nonsense and, in someway, I succeeded, I think. If you want a good list you should stop these things before they start. You should state clearly in the rules that these types of postings will not be tolerated. Frankly, my outburst was caused by your inaction. You should have nipped it in the bud. If I have contributed to your education on list management then, in some small way, I have succeeded in making the bio-diesel list a better place. :-/ I guess he even believes it. Er, thankyou Paul, sorry to be so recalcitrant, but it seems I remain uneducated. Not sure how it's my fault that you called Andrew a fascist (for protesting at the bombing of innocent civilians). I guess he'll be puzzled how come he's still getting emails even though he got kicked off. Maybe he'll figure it out in the end. Harley, by the way, preferring his denials, unsubbed. That's just cutting off your nose to spite your face. Well, of course he can still read messages at the list board at Yahoo, though that really does make it difficult to sort out the biofuels-content (!) messages from the political crap he says he doesn't want (at least that of it he disagrees with). I think Mark's hilarious on-tyopic/off-topic post put it all in perspective (at last!), along with Robert's letter: nauseating when viewed from a non-American perspective. The problems are compounded by many years of fundamentally flawed energy policy, and that's the reason why this discussion BELONGS on a biofuels list. He's not the first to say that. As for the USA-bashing complaints, it's baffling - nearly all of it comes from Americans. Point that out and they take no notice, plough right on complaining about USA-bashing, and convinced of it furthermore, regardless. Sheesh! Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Arrogance of Power
Tricia Liu wrote: Paul other non-believers: Please leave God out of your discussion! Show some respects toward other members! Thanks you! I agree with what you're saying Tricia, but some people have talked about God here in the past without any disrespect and without being off-topic either, or not much. So maybe it's okay as long as it's done with respect and with consideration for other list members' beliefs. Political Discussion: It will die down when the war is over, please have patience and also respect each others! When the time change, the topic will be back to BioFuel only! Have patience! Please! I doubt it will ever die down, too many people here see biofuels as a very political subject - it IS a very political subject! This debate about politics has been going on almost since the list started three years ago. There's been consistent majority support for keeping the discussion open and unrestricted, especially because the membership is so broad (worldwide) and diverse. Looking at the list as a whole, at everything that's happened here since it was founded, the whole body of the archives, and all the spin-offs, actions, campaigns, advocacy, results, technology and method and information development and improvements, there's no doubt that it has paid off very well indeed, in many different and unexpected ways. Best wishes Keith snip Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: Arrogance of Power and a bunch of otherwar-related threads
Hi Kirk, What part of I must say that in this case I agree that you have acted correctly did you not understand? Disconnect. If you would read what I said you may see that I was only pointing out to Keith that he has been carrying water on both shoulders, I assume that as he has not responded he did not take any exception to what I said. :-) You want your owner-skivvy on duty 24/7, eh? Sorry, I do sleep sometimes, though not very much, and I'm busy all the time, so sometimes you just might have to wait a little bit. And you assume wrong. You've got my response now, go and read it please. You will not find any reference to topic cop in my text as I am aware of Kirk's You mean Keith's. Anyway it's not my view any more than it's my list, as I've told you before, but it seems you're going to go on thinking that anyway. So go ahead, do whatever you like. Just don't expect me or anyone else to act accordingly. views on this subject and as it is his list Wrong!! I have two choices, I can accept his rules Wrong!! or I can leave. Up to you, of course. Keith Best regards, Vern Vern there is a difference between a topic cop and interceding re a flamer. You can't see that? Kirk -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 12:55 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Arrogance of Power and a bunch of otherwar-related threads Respond to the above by tomorrow. Defiance would be ill-advised. Your posting privileges have been withdrawn until you settle this satisfactorily. Keith Addison List owner Lets see you are now the List owner not just the good shepherd you have us believe when you wrote: No, it is not *my* list. I'm it's steward - servant, skivvy. My point is that even you turn to violent threats and ultimatums and can do so because you have the power to do it on this list. What is that old like about power corrupts? I must say that in this case I agree that you have acted correctly but it does let some of the wind out of your anti war position where negotiation is always better than action. Have a good day. Best regards, Vern PS: Perhaps some will enjoy the humor and the moral in the following: From the Marines at MATCA snip Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Impact of Energy Price Rise
I've been wondering recently how higher fuel prices will impact the production of biodiesel, which requires methanol (a fossil input), and ethanol, which requires some kind of heat energy (frequently derived from fossil fuels) for distillation. Some of the people on this list have expressed delight at the higher gasoline prices we're seeing. Here in Vancouver, a liter of regular currently ranges from about .74 to as high as .87, depending on the area. We're starting to see these higher prices impact food costs, so even vegetable oils or saccharine feed stocks that require transportation from point of harvest to point of use will also rise. Has anyone calculated the percentage increase these factors will have on the production of biodiesel and ethanol? By the way, I found a discarded electric water heater with a glass lined tank that looks like it's in good shape. I'm tempted to tear it apart and see what might be salvageable. Has anyone used such a thing for biodiesel production? robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul
Actually, what I meant was, it really looks like this list is more about politics than biofuel. Is and has it always been this way? If so, I will just unsubcribe and you all can keep doing what you do. Otherwise - I am going to be making biodiesel this summer. Anybody have any experience using it in multifuel diesel engines like what is in army trucks? Thanks - Mark From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 04:19:09 +0900 Mark Ehle wrote I am brand new member on this list. Welcome! When do we start talking about biofuel? Three years ago and ever since, up to now and beyond. There are these links at the bottom of every message, have you checked them? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ When do we start talking about biofuel? So, what do you want to talk about? Start a new discussion of you like, pick up on an old one, ask questions, tell us what you're doing, what your interests are, any problems you're having... Or are you here to listen? No problem, lurkers welcome. Best wishes Keith From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 13:21:48 +0100 Keith, I second this and think that Thor is right. I would be surprised if the members of this list supports name calling anyway, it is not my experience. Paul is only hurting himself and I do not think that it is going to escalate to a general behavior if you allow him to do that. Hakan At 09:25 PM 3/22/2003 -0800, you wrote: Keith, I sincerely hope you don't go through with your threat to censure Paul for his comments. I've believed in the sticks and stones approach to debate. If someone resorts to name calling they pretty much lose their audience (unless you're watching Jerry Springer or Rush Limbaugh) and render themselves ineffective. Personal insults are often the result of frustration from the inability to articulate one's thoughts, or from a lack of a good argument. And censorship looks like, well, censorship. Please reconsider. sincerely, thor skov Message: 15 Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 03:22:14 +0900 From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Arrogance of Power and a bunch of other war-related threads Paul Schwartz wrote: except that you're not a dog, I'm not a dog, and its not only dogs that you are killing. Indeed the colonial histories of the France's, Britain's, Portugal's, Spain, etc. to infinity, don't often look too honourable. So why follow their example? Interesting to note that the howling of dogs provides the only early warning of cruise missiles incoming to Baghdad. Its all they've got. Good, let it be known that if any tyrant chooses to threaten the peace of the world and murder his own people to retain his illegitimate power, then the howling of dogs may be the last thing he hears on this earth. Tyrants and fascists--like Andrew-- Pardon me, are you calling Andrew a tyrant and a fascist? You have two choices: justify that or apologize, onlist, without reservation. Not responding is not an option. No further warnings, do it by tomorrow. beware, if you threaten the peace of the USA and we will unleash the dogs of hell on you. Andy, shut up and go away; no one cares what you think. You are (a) wrong and (b) right out of line. Let's get back to bio diesel. And you will not tell this list what to do. Respond to the above by tomorrow. Defiance would be ill-advised. Your posting privileges have been withdrawn until you settle this satisfactorily. Keith Addison List owner Paul _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Gasoline From Coal
Uhwhatever happened to repatriation in the figurative sense of the practice? Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Donald Strong [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 8:33 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Gasoline From Coal Aloe, Dave: +We have enough energy for the next 400 years if the damn Yankees don't steal it. You lost that war, remember, so it belongs to us. a damn yankee, Don Strong Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
PLEASE READ THIS - was Re: [biofuel] No Sympathy for Murderous Suicide Bomber Propaganda
... especially the last bit. Stuart Kreitman wrote: Kirk: Your bloated messages are irrelevent to this newsgroup and amount to denial of service spam. Take your myopic political sentiments elsewhere. Mr Kreitman, you will not dictate what is relevant and irrelevant to this newsgroup [sic], and nor will anyone else, except the majority opinion, which does not support you. The messages were not bloated, others have been much longer but you have not objected to them. Why not be honest and straightforward and say it's the content that you object to? Take your myopic political sentiments elsewhere. Kirk posted an article by the widely respected Muslim academic Chandra Muzaffar of Penang in Malaysia. As it happens Chandra is a friend of mine, a brilliant man, immensely knowledgeable, with a unique style of incisive analysis. He's also most courageous - he has a long record of fighting oppression. Waging peace, as we say. It is quite clear, Mr Kreitman, viewing your ridiculous response to his article, just whose political sentiments are myopic. Now take note - you, and the clique you seem to belong to here, a minority of a minority, Americans who support the US attack on Iraq, are creating a noisy, disproportionate, unseemly and nonsensical hubbub, constantly calling for restrictions to the discussion: the views of others with whom you do not agree must be restricted, while you constantly bleat and whine about perceived but imaginery restrictions to your own freedom of speech. These demands for restriction are themselves likely to be restricted because they are contrary to the spirit of this list and are causing disruption to its smooth functioning. Cease and desist, all of you, now - no more calls for the discussion to be restricted. Got it? Keith Addison List owner Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul
Hakan, I think you are right as usual. It is time for Keith to moderate his responses. He is supposed to be the list moderator Ken - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 12:21 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul Keith, I second this and think that Thor is right. I would be surprised if the members of this list supports name calling anyway, it is not my experience. Paul is only hurting himself and I do not think that it is going to escalate to a general behavior if you allow him to do that. Hakan At 09:25 PM 3/22/2003 -0800, you wrote: Keith, I sincerely hope you don't go through with your threat to censure Paul for his comments. I've believed in the sticks and stones approach to debate. If someone resorts to name calling they pretty much lose their audience (unless you're watching Jerry Springer or Rush Limbaugh) and render themselves ineffective. Personal insults are often the result of frustration from the inability to articulate one's thoughts, or from a lack of a good argument. And censorship looks like, well, censorship. Please reconsider. sincerely, thor skov Message: 15 Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 03:22:14 +0900 From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Arrogance of Power and a bunch of other war-related threads Paul Schwartz wrote: except that you're not a dog, I'm not a dog, and its not only dogs that you are killing. Indeed the colonial histories of the France's, Britain's, Portugal's, Spain, etc. to infinity, don't often look too honourable. So why follow their example? Interesting to note that the howling of dogs provides the only early warning of cruise missiles incoming to Baghdad. Its all they've got. Good, let it be known that if any tyrant chooses to threaten the peace of the world and murder his own people to retain his illegitimate power, then the howling of dogs may be the last thing he hears on this earth. Tyrants and fascists--like Andrew-- Pardon me, are you calling Andrew a tyrant and a fascist? You have two choices: justify that or apologize, onlist, without reservation. Not responding is not an option. No further warnings, do it by tomorrow. beware, if you threaten the peace of the USA and we will unleash the dogs of hell on you. Andy, shut up and go away; no one cares what you think. You are (a) wrong and (b) right out of line. Let's get back to bio diesel. And you will not tell this list what to do. Respond to the above by tomorrow. Defiance would be ill-advised. Your posting privileges have been withdrawn until you settle this satisfactorily. Keith Addison List owner Paul Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul
Actually, what I meant was, it really looks like this list is more about politics than biofuel. Not so at all - there is a definite grey area between the two though. Members have said things like this: nauseating when viewed from a non-American perspective. The problems are compounded by many years of fundamentally flawed energy policy, and that's the reason why this discussion BELONGS on a biofuels list. And: Political discussion is VITAL to the future of biofuels. http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=21715list=BIOFUEL And: For a copy of our anti-war/biodiesel alternatives factsheet, please see: http://www.veggieavenger.com/news/news.shtml etc etc etc Is and has it always been this way? If so, I will just unsubcribe and you all can keep doing what you do. That's up to you, but there's no shortage of direct discussion of biofuels here, as well as biofuels issues. Did you check the links I referred you to? The archives is an amazing resource of all aspects of biofuels information, and so is the collective knowledge of the list membership. Much of the information in the Biofuels section at Journey to Forever was developed from or with the help of the list, and that is acknowledged to be the premier source of small-scale biofuels information on the web. Anyway, nobody's forcing you to read anything you don't want to read, the one doesn't detract from the other, they're complementary. But... it's up to you. Best wishes Keith Addison Otherwise - I am going to be making biodiesel this summer. Anybody have any experience using it in multifuel diesel engines like what is in army trucks? Thanks - Mark From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 04:19:09 +0900 Mark Ehle wrote I am brand new member on this list. Welcome! When do we start talking about biofuel? Three years ago and ever since, up to now and beyond. There are these links at the bottom of every message, have you checked them? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ When do we start talking about biofuel? So, what do you want to talk about? Start a new discussion of you like, pick up on an old one, ask questions, tell us what you're doing, what your interests are, any problems you're having... Or are you here to listen? No problem, lurkers welcome. Best wishes Keith From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 13:21:48 +0100 snip Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re:Winter war in Finland
Hakan Do you know anything about the Nazi submarine U234. It was featured in a UK Channel 4 programme entitled 'Last Missions oif WWll' Seemingly, it was carrying a whole load of secret material and designs for the japanese to progress and the fall of Germany. Included was a complete Me262 for them to copy and, surprisingly, 560kilos of Uranium oxide. Is there any truth in this story and would you have any links to follow? Ken - Original Message - From: Thor Skov [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 5:16 AM Subject: [biofuel] Re:Winter war in Finland Hakan, No apology necessary. I'm glad you followed it up tho. I'm a bit of a WW2 buff, and was curious whether the Luftwaffe actually flew on the side of the Soviets in the winter war. I'd love to see your films some day. Regards, Thor - Message: 18 Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 22:52:39 +0100 From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Winter war in Finland Hi Thor, I just want to come back to an earlier discussion we had. in fairness to your father. Since I did claims in front of the list, I am also posting this. Finally I had an opportunity to look at my father's films from the winter war in Finland once more, had to buy a new VHS, to be able to move them to DVD. A few sequences before the part that show the plane, it is a sequence that is obviously filmed from an aeroplane and it is maybe the same plane with the swastika in the later clip. I had researched the swastika, but did not find any references to Finland, as your father mentioned. My mother is now 84 and have problems with the short memory, but very good memory from things that happened before 3-4 years ago. I asked her about it and this are the answers, Yes, the Germans helped Stalin in the winter war and a couple of them ended up in the hospital where she was. Yes, the Finish had the swastika on their aeroplanes and the plane in the film was probably Finish. Yes, the Germans copied the swastika from the Finish. It seems that I was wrong in my assumption and your father was right. I mixed the above information and made the wrong conclusion about the aeroplane. Give my apologies to your father. Hakan __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Impact of Energy Price Rise
Robert, I don't know if its delight that's being expressed more than it's a thankfulness that some market corrections are coming into play and that perhaps the playing field is becoming a little more level. Most are aware that higher fuel costs disproportionally harm those of lesser income. It's hardly a pretty fact. Call it sick, but wouldn't that be similar to what the war advocates casually call collateral damage? Had government leadership and industry been responsible over the decades, most recently over the past three decades, none of this would be as devastating as it might yet prove to be. Problem with creating ever wider chasms is that the bridges to get across them become exponentially higher in cost, materials and losses to construct. As for the hot water tank, I believe that JTF had an example of just that at one time or another. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 2:55 PM Subject: [biofuel] Impact of Energy Price Rise I've been wondering recently how higher fuel prices will impact the production of biodiesel, which requires methanol (a fossil input), and ethanol, which requires some kind of heat energy (frequently derived from fossil fuels) for distillation. Some of the people on this list have expressed delight at the higher gasoline prices we're seeing. Here in Vancouver, a liter of regular currently ranges from about .74 to as high as .87, depending on the area. We're starting to see these higher prices impact food costs, so even vegetable oils or saccharine feed stocks that require transportation from point of harvest to point of use will also rise. Has anyone calculated the percentage increase these factors will have on the production of biodiesel and ethanol? By the way, I found a discarded electric water heater with a glass lined tank that looks like it's in good shape. I'm tempted to tear it apart and see what might be salvageable. Has anyone used such a thing for biodiesel production? robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul
Hakan, I think you are right as usual. It is time for Keith to moderate his responses. He is supposed to be the list moderator Ken And you Mr Basterfield? Trolling again, are you? - grinding your little axe? It wouldn't be about time for you to moderate your responses, would it? You want me to do it for you? Well, nothing to stop you wanting. If there were any basis to what you're saying, would your messages even appear? But, somehow, inexplicably, they do - how very baffling for you, eh? Keith - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 12:21 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul Keith, I second this and think that Thor is right. I would be surprised if the members of this list supports name calling anyway, it is not my experience. Paul is only hurting himself and I do not think that it is going to escalate to a general behavior if you allow him to do that. Hakan snip Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Impact of Energy Price Rise
Hi Todd Robert, I don't know if its delight that's being expressed more than it's a thankfulness that some market corrections are coming into play and that perhaps the playing field is becoming a little more level. Most are aware that higher fuel costs disproportionally harm those of lesser income. It's hardly a pretty fact. Call it sick, but wouldn't that be similar to what the war advocates casually call collateral damage? Had government leadership and industry been responsible over the decades, most recently over the past three decades, none of this would be as devastating as it might yet prove to be. Problem with creating ever wider chasms is that the bridges to get across them become exponentially higher in cost, materials and losses to construct. As for the hot water tank, I believe that JTF had an example of just that at one time or another. Did we? It doesn't ring a bell - can you jog my memory a bit? Keith Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 2:55 PM Subject: [biofuel] Impact of Energy Price Rise I've been wondering recently how higher fuel prices will impact the production of biodiesel, which requires methanol (a fossil input), and ethanol, which requires some kind of heat energy (frequently derived from fossil fuels) for distillation. Some of the people on this list have expressed delight at the higher gasoline prices we're seeing. Here in Vancouver, a liter of regular currently ranges from about .74 to as high as .87, depending on the area. We're starting to see these higher prices impact food costs, so even vegetable oils or saccharine feed stocks that require transportation from point of harvest to point of use will also rise. Has anyone calculated the percentage increase these factors will have on the production of biodiesel and ethanol? By the way, I found a discarded electric water heater with a glass lined tank that looks like it's in good shape. I'm tempted to tear it apart and see what might be salvageable. Has anyone used such a thing for biodiesel production? robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Disconnects - was Re: [biofuel] Arrogance of Power
If you want a good list you should stop these things before they start. You should state clearly in the rules that these types of postings will not be tolerated. Frankly, my outburst was caused by your inaction. You should have nipped it in the bud. No doubt someone will correct me if I'm wrong, which no doubt I am :-) But isn't that one of the arguements that conservatives alway use against liberals. I thought it was the demon liberals who are always chastised for attributing poor behavior and bad choices at doorsteps other than personal responsibility - a product of genetics, a product of parenting, a product of social influences, a product of their environment. Does that make Mr. Shwartz a bleeding heart liberal? Doubtful. But is more along the lines of making up the rules and changing them to fit as you go. Seems to be an ever increasing practice amongst the right these days. No wonder I took a left out of their camp decades ago. Todd Swearingen Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul
Ken, I would consider it more analogous to letting mice run free in the grainery under the assumption that they'll get gorged and eventually stop feeding. It just doesn't happen. If left unchecked to some degree (in this case the degree being the level of personal attack) the mice propigate, the grainery is consumed and everyone else starves. No good comes from doing nothing, at least in this instance. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Ken Basterfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 3:51 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul Hakan, I think you are right as usual. It is time for Keith to moderate his responses. He is supposed to be the list moderator Ken - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 12:21 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul Keith, I second this and think that Thor is right. I would be surprised if the members of this list supports name calling anyway, it is not my experience. Paul is only hurting himself and I do not think that it is going to escalate to a general behavior if you allow him to do that. Hakan At 09:25 PM 3/22/2003 -0800, you wrote: Keith, I sincerely hope you don't go through with your threat to censure Paul for his comments. I've believed in the sticks and stones approach to debate. If someone resorts to name calling they pretty much lose their audience (unless you're watching Jerry Springer or Rush Limbaugh) and render themselves ineffective. Personal insults are often the result of frustration from the inability to articulate one's thoughts, or from a lack of a good argument. And censorship looks like, well, censorship. Please reconsider. sincerely, thor skov Message: 15 Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 03:22:14 +0900 From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Arrogance of Power and a bunch of other war-related threads Paul Schwartz wrote: except that you're not a dog, I'm not a dog, and its not only dogs that you are killing. Indeed the colonial histories of the France's, Britain's, Portugal's, Spain, etc. to infinity, don't often look too honourable. So why follow their example? Interesting to note that the howling of dogs provides the only early warning of cruise missiles incoming to Baghdad. Its all they've got. Good, let it be known that if any tyrant chooses to threaten the peace of the world and murder his own people to retain his illegitimate power, then the howling of dogs may be the last thing he hears on this earth. Tyrants and fascists--like Andrew-- Pardon me, are you calling Andrew a tyrant and a fascist? You have two choices: justify that or apologize, onlist, without reservation. Not responding is not an option. No further warnings, do it by tomorrow. beware, if you threaten the peace of the USA and we will unleash the dogs of hell on you. Andy, shut up and go away; no one cares what you think. You are (a) wrong and (b) right out of line. Let's get back to bio diesel. And you will not tell this list what to do. Respond to the above by tomorrow. Defiance would be ill-advised. Your posting privileges have been withdrawn until you settle this satisfactorily. Keith Addison List owner Paul Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul
Mark, Everything you need to make biofuels can be found at the Journey to Forever Web site and any specific questions that you have will get answered here, believe it or not. All this war crap got started just about three or four weeks ago and will go away very soon(at least most of it will). Usually everyone gets along pretty well but, lately we seem to have found a few newcomers with tunnel vision compounded by the need to always get the last word in. For the most part everyone is here to figure out how to live without petroleum products and only use the earth's renewable natural resources. kris book -- Mark Ehle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, what I meant was, it really looks like this list is more about politics than biofuel. Is and has it always been this way? If so, I will just unsubcribe and you all can keep doing what you do. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Impact of Energy Price Rise
If memory serves, there was at one time a pink-bubble wrapped hot water tank fastened inside some sort of wood frame that was being touted as a vacuous processor or something similar. Or was it a site that was referenced on this list and hot linked to? Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 4:07 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Impact of Energy Price Rise Hi Todd Robert, I don't know if its delight that's being expressed more than it's a thankfulness that some market corrections are coming into play and that perhaps the playing field is becoming a little more level. Most are aware that higher fuel costs disproportionally harm those of lesser income. It's hardly a pretty fact. Call it sick, but wouldn't that be similar to what the war advocates casually call collateral damage? Had government leadership and industry been responsible over the decades, most recently over the past three decades, none of this would be as devastating as it might yet prove to be. Problem with creating ever wider chasms is that the bridges to get across them become exponentially higher in cost, materials and losses to construct. As for the hot water tank, I believe that JTF had an example of just that at one time or another. Did we? It doesn't ring a bell - can you jog my memory a bit? Keith Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 2:55 PM Subject: [biofuel] Impact of Energy Price Rise I've been wondering recently how higher fuel prices will impact the production of biodiesel, which requires methanol (a fossil input), and ethanol, which requires some kind of heat energy (frequently derived from fossil fuels) for distillation. Some of the people on this list have expressed delight at the higher gasoline prices we're seeing. Here in Vancouver, a liter of regular currently ranges from about .74 to as high as .87, depending on the area. We're starting to see these higher prices impact food costs, so even vegetable oils or saccharine feed stocks that require transportation from point of harvest to point of use will also rise. Has anyone calculated the percentage increase these factors will have on the production of biodiesel and ethanol? By the way, I found a discarded electric water heater with a glass lined tank that looks like it's in good shape. I'm tempted to tear it apart and see what might be salvageable. Has anyone used such a thing for biodiesel production? robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Master Puzzler for Biofuelers...
Okay, so it's easy to throw 10 or 15 pounds of burger chips and grill scrapings into a compost heap. What the opossums and raccoons don't get the worms will. But has anyone seen any type of an inexpensive hydraulic ram set up that can get the last drops of fat out of the solids prior to composting? Approximately 10% out of every 250 gallon dumpster is a boatload of high oil content slop. Too much to just feed to the hogs and too much in short order to simply compost without reducing the oil content first. Todd Swearingen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Master Puzzler for Biofuelers...
OIL PRESS Todd: How about modifying one of the common log splitters ? ( think potato ricer on the end of the ram). Don Strong, proud tennis-ball machine Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul
When do we start talking about biofuel? What have you got to say? What do you want to know? EdB - Original Message - From: Mark Ehle To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 6:35 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul I am brand new member on this list. When do we start talking about biofuel? From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 13:21:48 +0100 Keith, I second this and think that Thor is right. I would be surprised if the members of this list supports name calling anyway, it is not my experience. Paul is only hurting himself and I do not think that it is going to escalate to a general behavior if you allow him to do that. Hakan At 09:25 PM 3/22/2003 -0800, you wrote: Keith, I sincerely hope you don't go through with your threat to censure Paul for his comments. I've believed in the sticks and stones approach to debate. If someone resorts to name calling they pretty much lose their audience (unless you're watching Jerry Springer or Rush Limbaugh) and render themselves ineffective. Personal insults are often the result of frustration from the inability to articulate one's thoughts, or from a lack of a good argument. And censorship looks like, well, censorship. Please reconsider. sincerely, thor skov Message: 15 Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 03:22:14 +0900 From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Arrogance of Power and a bunch of other war-related threads Paul Schwartz wrote: except that you're not a dog, I'm not a dog, and its not only dogs that you are killing. Indeed the colonial histories of the France's, Britain's, Portugal's, Spain, etc. to infinity, don't often look too honourable. So why follow their example? Interesting to note that the howling of dogs provides the only early warning of cruise missiles incoming to Baghdad. Its all they've got. Good, let it be known that if any tyrant chooses to threaten the peace of the world and murder his own people to retain his illegitimate power, then the howling of dogs may be the last thing he hears on this earth. Tyrants and fascists--like Andrew-- Pardon me, are you calling Andrew a tyrant and a fascist? You have two choices: justify that or apologize, onlist, without reservation. Not responding is not an option. No further warnings, do it by tomorrow. beware, if you threaten the peace of the USA and we will unleash the dogs of hell on you. Andy, shut up and go away; no one cares what you think. You are (a) wrong and (b) right out of line. Let's get back to bio diesel. And you will not tell this list what to do. Respond to the above by tomorrow. Defiance would be ill-advised. Your posting privileges have been withdrawn until you settle this satisfactorily. Keith Addison List owner Paul _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re:Winter war in Finland
Ken, No, I have heard the same stories and others. My main interest in and about WWII have been quite normal reading, except for the quite large exposure I had from people that lived trough it on both sides, in one way or the other. I am generally interested in history and especially perceptions from all sides. History is mostly written by the winners and it take at least 100 years to get to a less emotional and objective version, this was said by a historian and to me it has been confirmed time and time again. I think that maybe Thor knows more about U234. Hakan At 08:57 PM 3/23/2003 +, you wrote: Hakan Do you know anything about the Nazi submarine U234. It was featured in a UK Channel 4 programme entitled 'Last Missions oif WWll' Seemingly, it was carrying a whole load of secret material and designs for the japanese to progress and the fall of Germany. Included was a complete Me262 for them to copy and, surprisingly, 560kilos of Uranium oxide. Is there any truth in this story and would you have any links to follow? Ken - Original Message - From: Thor Skov [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 5:16 AM Subject: [biofuel] Re:Winter war in Finland Hakan, No apology necessary. I'm glad you followed it up tho. I'm a bit of a WW2 buff, and was curious whether the Luftwaffe actually flew on the side of the Soviets in the winter war. I'd love to see your films some day. Regards, Thor - Message: 18 Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 22:52:39 +0100 From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Winter war in Finland Hi Thor, I just want to come back to an earlier discussion we had. in fairness to your father. Since I did claims in front of the list, I am also posting this. Finally I had an opportunity to look at my father's films from the winter war in Finland once more, had to buy a new VHS, to be able to move them to DVD. A few sequences before the part that show the plane, it is a sequence that is obviously filmed from an aeroplane and it is maybe the same plane with the swastika in the later clip. I had researched the swastika, but did not find any references to Finland, as your father mentioned. My mother is now 84 and have problems with the short memory, but very good memory from things that happened before 3-4 years ago. I asked her about it and this are the answers, Yes, the Germans helped Stalin in the winter war and a couple of them ended up in the hospital where she was. Yes, the Finish had the swastika on their aeroplanes and the plane in the film was probably Finish. Yes, the Germans copied the swastika from the Finish. It seems that I was wrong in my assumption and your father was right. I mixed the above information and made the wrong conclusion about the aeroplane. Give my apologies to your father. Hakan Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul
Ken, I am surprised that you could read this message in what I wrote. It is maybe needed that I once again have to say what I sad so many times, that I am afraid to embarrass Keith. I have never seen such a good moderator with sense for what people need to talk about in such a political issue as the energy questions. Sometimes almost all get a little derailed, but he show a large respect and patience with it. I think that it is symptomatic with all this concerns about this attack on Iraq. It is many nationalities on the list and many concerns. No wonder that it is discussed a lot, but at the same time the majority of the postings are valuable interchange of views. It is actually an opportunity the get a true international view from grass root level. The fact that it is so many against the attack and occupation, is representative for what the world thinks about it. According to my opinion, it is all about Iraqi oil and the future will prove it. You are already seeing this in what is happening. Hakan At 08:51 PM 3/23/2003 +, you wrote: Hakan, I think you are right as usual. It is time for Keith to moderate his responses. He is supposed to be the list moderator Ken - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 12:21 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul Keith, I second this and think that Thor is right. I would be surprised if the members of this list supports name calling anyway, it is not my experience. Paul is only hurting himself and I do not think that it is going to escalate to a general behavior if you allow him to do that. Hakan At 09:25 PM 3/22/2003 -0800, you wrote: Keith, I sincerely hope you don't go through with your threat to censure Paul for his comments. I've believed in the sticks and stones approach to debate. If someone resorts to name calling they pretty much lose their audience (unless you're watching Jerry Springer or Rush Limbaugh) and render themselves ineffective. Personal insults are often the result of frustration from the inability to articulate one's thoughts, or from a lack of a good argument. And censorship looks like, well, censorship. Please reconsider. sincerely, thor skov Message: 15 Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 03:22:14 +0900 From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Arrogance of Power and a bunch of other war-related threads Paul Schwartz wrote: except that you're not a dog, I'm not a dog, and its not only dogs that you are killing. Indeed the colonial histories of the France's, Britain's, Portugal's, Spain, etc. to infinity, don't often look too honourable. So why follow their example? Interesting to note that the howling of dogs provides the only early warning of cruise missiles incoming to Baghdad. Its all they've got. Good, let it be known that if any tyrant chooses to threaten the peace of the world and murder his own people to retain his illegitimate power, then the howling of dogs may be the last thing he hears on this earth. Tyrants and fascists--like Andrew-- Pardon me, are you calling Andrew a tyrant and a fascist? You have two choices: justify that or apologize, onlist, without reservation. Not responding is not an option. No further warnings, do it by tomorrow. beware, if you threaten the peace of the USA and we will unleash the dogs of hell on you. Andy, shut up and go away; no one cares what you think. You are (a) wrong and (b) right out of line. Let's get back to bio diesel. And you will not tell this list what to do. Respond to the above by tomorrow. Defiance would be ill-advised. Your posting privileges have been withdrawn until you settle this satisfactorily. Keith Addison List owner Paul Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] ethanol mixtures
can anyone tell me the maximum amount of ethanol that you can blend with gasoline and burn in an unmodified gasoline engine? I have a 55 gall drum of ethanol lying around that I can't make biodiesel with and I am looking for a suitable use. thanks. jk Jack Kenworthy Sustainable Systems Director The Cape Eleuthera Island School 242-359-7625 ph. 954-252-2224 fax www.islandschool.org [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul
ROFFLE ROFFLE!!! - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 5:59 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul Todd, You would be surprised of how much mice excrements that are allowed in grains by the health authorities. -:) Hakan At 04:18 PM 3/23/2003 -0500, you wrote: Ken, I would consider it more analogous to letting mice run free in the grainery under the assumption that they'll get gorged and eventually stop feeding. It just doesn't happen. If left unchecked to some degree (in this case the degree being the level of personal attack) the mice propigate, the grainery is consumed and everyone else starves. No good comes from doing nothing, at least in this instance. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Ken Basterfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 3:51 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul Hakan, I think you are right as usual. It is time for Keith to moderate his responses. He is supposed to be the list moderator Ken - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 12:21 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul Keith, I second this and think that Thor is right. I would be surprised if the members of this list supports name calling anyway, it is not my experience. Paul is only hurting himself and I do not think that it is going to escalate to a general behavior if you allow him to do that. Hakan At 09:25 PM 3/22/2003 -0800, you wrote: Keith, I sincerely hope you don't go through with your threat to censure Paul for his comments. I've believed in the sticks and stones approach to debate. If someone resorts to name calling they pretty much lose their audience (unless you're watching Jerry Springer or Rush Limbaugh) and render themselves ineffective. Personal insults are often the result of frustration from the inability to articulate one's thoughts, or from a lack of a good argument. And censorship looks like, well, censorship. Please reconsider. sincerely, thor skov Message: 15 Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 03:22:14 +0900 From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Arrogance of Power and a bunch of other war-related threads Paul Schwartz wrote: except that you're not a dog, I'm not a dog, and its not only dogs that you are killing. Indeed the colonial histories of the France's, Britain's, Portugal's, Spain, etc. to infinity, don't often look too honourable. So why follow their example? Interesting to note that the howling of dogs provides the only early warning of cruise missiles incoming to Baghdad. Its all they've got. Good, let it be known that if any tyrant chooses to threaten the peace of the world and murder his own people to retain his illegitimate power, then the howling of dogs may be the last thing he hears on this earth. Tyrants and fascists--like Andrew-- Pardon me, are you calling Andrew a tyrant and a fascist? You have two choices: justify that or apologize, onlist, without reservation. Not responding is not an option. No further warnings, do it by tomorrow. beware, if you threaten the peace of the USA and we will unleash the dogs of hell on you. Andy, shut up and go away; no one cares what you think. You are (a) wrong and (b) right out of line. Let's get back to bio diesel. And you will not tell this list what to do. Respond to the above by tomorrow. Defiance would be ill-advised. Your posting privileges have been withdrawn until you settle this satisfactorily. Keith Addison List owner Paul Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul
Todd, You would be surprised of how much mice excrements that are allowed in grains by the health authorities. -:) Hakan At 04:18 PM 3/23/2003 -0500, you wrote: Ken, I would consider it more analogous to letting mice run free in the grainery under the assumption that they'll get gorged and eventually stop feeding. It just doesn't happen. If left unchecked to some degree (in this case the degree being the level of personal attack) the mice propigate, the grainery is consumed and everyone else starves. No good comes from doing nothing, at least in this instance. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Ken Basterfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 3:51 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul Hakan, I think you are right as usual. It is time for Keith to moderate his responses. He is supposed to be the list moderator Ken - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 12:21 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul Keith, I second this and think that Thor is right. I would be surprised if the members of this list supports name calling anyway, it is not my experience. Paul is only hurting himself and I do not think that it is going to escalate to a general behavior if you allow him to do that. Hakan At 09:25 PM 3/22/2003 -0800, you wrote: Keith, I sincerely hope you don't go through with your threat to censure Paul for his comments. I've believed in the sticks and stones approach to debate. If someone resorts to name calling they pretty much lose their audience (unless you're watching Jerry Springer or Rush Limbaugh) and render themselves ineffective. Personal insults are often the result of frustration from the inability to articulate one's thoughts, or from a lack of a good argument. And censorship looks like, well, censorship. Please reconsider. sincerely, thor skov Message: 15 Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 03:22:14 +0900 From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Arrogance of Power and a bunch of other war-related threads Paul Schwartz wrote: except that you're not a dog, I'm not a dog, and its not only dogs that you are killing. Indeed the colonial histories of the France's, Britain's, Portugal's, Spain, etc. to infinity, don't often look too honourable. So why follow their example? Interesting to note that the howling of dogs provides the only early warning of cruise missiles incoming to Baghdad. Its all they've got. Good, let it be known that if any tyrant chooses to threaten the peace of the world and murder his own people to retain his illegitimate power, then the howling of dogs may be the last thing he hears on this earth. Tyrants and fascists--like Andrew-- Pardon me, are you calling Andrew a tyrant and a fascist? You have two choices: justify that or apologize, onlist, without reservation. Not responding is not an option. No further warnings, do it by tomorrow. beware, if you threaten the peace of the USA and we will unleash the dogs of hell on you. Andy, shut up and go away; no one cares what you think. You are (a) wrong and (b) right out of line. Let's get back to bio diesel. And you will not tell this list what to do. Respond to the above by tomorrow. Defiance would be ill-advised. Your posting privileges have been withdrawn until you settle this satisfactorily. Keith Addison List owner Paul Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] ethanol mixtures
Hi Jack, You will probably get the answer from the whole list, but up to 10% Ethanol seems to be a limit that all agree on. Hakan At 05:42 PM 3/23/2003 -0500, you wrote: can anyone tell me the maximum amount of ethanol that you can blend with gasoline and burn in an unmodified gasoline engine? I have a 55 gall drum of ethanol lying around that I can't make biodiesel with and I am looking for a suitable use. thanks. jk Jack Kenworthy Sustainable Systems Director The Cape Eleuthera Island School 242-359-7625 ph. 954-252-2224 fax www.islandschool.org Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] A biofuels question (sort of)
OK, I lied, this isn't about biofuels per se, but rather about home energy generation. I am rebuilding my house in Seattle, and want to go with passive solar heating supplemented with an efficient wood fireplace insert (see, biofuels!). My question is about solar water heating. I'd like to use solar panels and recaptured waste water heat to preheat water, store it in tanks, and then pipe it to electric on-demand heaters at the point of usage. Does anyone know of a design for such a system? I really know nothing about such a system, but am frantically trying to educate myself with whatever materials I can find. Any leads or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thor Skov __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] ethanol mixtures
There are two more important consideraations when using ethanol or methanol mixtures in gasoline. One is the corossive nature of alcohol and its effect on seals, gaskets and hoses. There is also mild corrosion of aluminum. Limiting the mix ratio keeps it minimal. The other is that addition of alcohol or methanol will raise the octane rating, however, after reaching a certain point, adding more will drop the octane reading, according to the lab at the local refinery. I did not get figures, but If I were using up 55 gallons, I would use it in a 10 per cent solution, just like the local gas station pumps. EdB - Original Message - From: Jack Kenworthy To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 4:42 PM Subject: [biofuel] ethanol mixtures can anyone tell me the maximum amount of ethanol that you can blend with gasoline and burn in an unmodified gasoline engine? I have a 55 gall drum of ethanol lying around that I can't make biodiesel with and I am looking for a suitable use. thanks. jk Jack Kenworthy Sustainable Systems Director The Cape Eleuthera Island School 242-359-7625 ph. 954-252-2224 fax www.islandschool.org [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Banning Paul
I think the all time record for contaminants allowed though is held by chocolate. I still like the stuff though. Kirk -Original Message- From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 3:59 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul Todd, You would be surprised of how much mice excrements that are allowed in grains by the health authorities. -:) Hakan At 04:18 PM 3/23/2003 -0500, you wrote: Ken, I would consider it more analogous to letting mice run free in the grainery under the assumption that they'll get gorged and eventually stop feeding. It just doesn't happen. If left unchecked to some degree (in this case the degree being the level of personal attack) the mice propigate, the grainery is consumed and everyone else starves. No good comes from doing nothing, at least in this instance. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Ken Basterfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 3:51 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul Hakan, I think you are right as usual. It is time for Keith to moderate his responses. He is supposed to be the list moderator Ken - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 12:21 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul Keith, I second this and think that Thor is right. I would be surprised if the members of this list supports name calling anyway, it is not my experience. Paul is only hurting himself and I do not think that it is going to escalate to a general behavior if you allow him to do that. Hakan At 09:25 PM 3/22/2003 -0800, you wrote: Keith, I sincerely hope you don't go through with your threat to censure Paul for his comments. I've believed in the sticks and stones approach to debate. If someone resorts to name calling they pretty much lose their audience (unless you're watching Jerry Springer or Rush Limbaugh) and render themselves ineffective. Personal insults are often the result of frustration from the inability to articulate one's thoughts, or from a lack of a good argument. And censorship looks like, well, censorship. Please reconsider. sincerely, thor skov Message: 15 Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 03:22:14 +0900 From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Arrogance of Power and a bunch of other war-related threads Paul Schwartz wrote: except that you're not a dog, I'm not a dog, and its not only dogs that you are killing. Indeed the colonial histories of the France's, Britain's, Portugal's, Spain, etc. to infinity, don't often look too honourable. So why follow their example? Interesting to note that the howling of dogs provides the only early warning of cruise missiles incoming to Baghdad. Its all they've got. Good, let it be known that if any tyrant chooses to threaten the peace of the world and murder his own people to retain his illegitimate power, then the howling of dogs may be the last thing he hears on this earth. Tyrants and fascists--like Andrew-- Pardon me, are you calling Andrew a tyrant and a fascist? You have two choices: justify that or apologize, onlist, without reservation. Not responding is not an option. No further warnings, do it by tomorrow. beware, if you threaten the peace of the USA and we will unleash the dogs of hell on you. Andy, shut up and go away; no one cares what you think. You are (a) wrong and (b) right out of line. Let's get back to bio diesel. And you will not tell this list what to do. Respond to the above by tomorrow. Defiance would be ill-advised. Your posting privileges have been withdrawn until you settle this satisfactorily. Keith Addison List owner Paul Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.463 / Virus Database: 262 - Release Date: 3/17/2003 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives:
RE: [biofuel] Re: Arrogance of Power and a bunch of otherwar-relatedthreads
snip My point is that even you turn to violent threats and ultimatums and can do so because you have the power to do it on this list. What is that old like about power corrupts? end snip The discipline was invoked re flaming. Keith said he is not a topic cop and he isn't. Flamers are another kettle of fish. The point is not that you agree with disciplining flamers, the point is you referenced power corrupts. Keith is still uncorrupted -- still not a topic cop. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 11:29 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] Re: Arrogance of Power and a bunch of otherwar-relatedthreads Hi Kirk, What part of I must say that in this case I agree that you have acted correctly did you not understand? If you would read what I said you may see that I was only pointing out to Keith that he has been carrying water on both shoulders, I assume that as he has not responded he did not take any exception to what I said. You will not find any reference to topic cop in my text as I am aware of Kirk's views on this subject and as it is his list I have two choices, I can accept his rules or I can leave. Best regards, Vern Vern there is a difference between a topic cop and interceding re a flamer. You can't see that? Kirk -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 12:55 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Arrogance of Power and a bunch of otherwar-related threads Respond to the above by tomorrow. Defiance would be ill-advised. Your posting privileges have been withdrawn until you settle this satisfactorily. Keith Addison List owner Lets see you are now the List owner not just the good shepherd you have us believe when you wrote: No, it is not *my* list. I'm it's steward - servant, skivvy. My point is that even you turn to violent threats and ultimatums and can do so because you have the power to do it on this list. What is that old like about power corrupts? I must say that in this case I agree that you have acted correctly but it does let some of the wind out of your anti war position where negotiation is always better than action. Have a good day. Best regards, Vern PS: Perhaps some will enjoy the humor and the moral in the following:
Re: [biofuel] A biofuels question (sort of)
Thor Skov wrote: My question is about solar water heating. I'd like to use solar panels and recaptured waste water heat to preheat water, store it in tanks, and then pipe it to electric on-demand heaters at the point of usage. Does anyone know of a design for such a system? I really know nothing about such a system, but am frantically trying to educate myself with whatever materials I can find. Any leads or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thor Skov I remember reading a book about energy efficiency quite a while ago. Although the title eludes me now, one of the things I DO remember is the idea of plumbing bath tub / shower, dishwasher and kitchen sink drains into a basement level holding tank. This could be as simple as an insulated plastic drum. The cold water line that leads into the domestic hot water tank (or tankless heater) would run through a coil at the top of this drum to pick up waste heat that would otherwise just drain into the sewer mains. As new hot water drains from the house into the top of the holding tank, old and cooler water would be drained from the bottom. If you're serious about solar, you might try some of these links. I wanted to explore these options in my own house, but met resistance from the builder and the bank: http://www.acrosolarlasers.com/addition.html http://www.solarattic.com/dhw.htm http://www.solarthermal.com/ A builder friend of mine once said: Anything is possible, as long as there's money. . . Here are some wood friendly links for you to consider: http://alternateheatingsystems.com/wg.htm(These people are having a sale right now. Their smallest gasification boiler is selling for about $6 500 U.S.) http://www.hydro-coil.com/HYDRO~1/Price_sheetx.html Good luck! I used to burn a lot of wood, and I miss having a fire in the house! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Guernica was : Arrogance of Power and a bunch of other war-related threads
Paul, Since I learned that you have the posting rights again and I hope that name calling is no longer necessary, I will post may answer on the list as follows, At 11:31 AM 3/23/2003 -0800, you wrote: My replies to the group have apparently been blocked, although I am getting the posts. So for the time being, I assume my presence is unwelcome in the forum. I did post a reply, but it came back to me. I suggest you talk to the list monitor and ask him for a copy, if he still has it. Apparently, I can be called names, but I can't return the favor. I do believe that Liberals and the Left, in general, are more intolerant of dissent than the conservatives. I fully and completely disagree with your identification of Andrew, even if I agreed I am upset about someone saying it. I have full understanding of Keith reaction and I am happy that you now can post your apology. The short answer Your answer might to some extent cover the Spanish civil war, but not Guernica. Now it is my turn to wonder if you know what you are talking about. Spain: 1. Civil war Yes, and with the Franco's side heavily supported by the Germans. By this helping the Spanish people to get rid of the legal Government. 2. Terrorist act committed by the Spanish, and their proxies, on the Spanish. No, committed by the German pilots and planes, who flew the Stukas used in Guernica. It was the first live test of terror bombing tactics, developed by the Germans. Later frequently used by Germans and the opposite side in WWII. 3. Intended targets were civilians. The target is the psychological effect on the general population, their leaders and the military. In absolute number of civilian casualties (collateral damage) Baghdad is probably larger, but in percentage of the targets population very much smaller. I get sick when I see Rumsfeld purring like a cat, when he talks about it. On the other hand, the German defence minister was probably very pleased with Guernica also. 4. One of the greatest works in the history of art was painted to commemorate the occasion. By Pablo Picasso and hanging in UN and was covered when Powell and others did the press conferences about Iraq. Was regarded as unsuitable at the occasions. Iraq: 1. Saddem is financing wars in other parts of the world. He is no different from John Gotti, he hires killers to do his dirty work. It doesn't matter that the killers always die in the attack. The only known financing known was the financial support to families of suicide bombers, which other states in the neighborhood also did. 2. He signed an agreement to stop a Internationally sanctioned war in 1991 and has gone back on that agreement. For that reason alone we have the right to attack. He signed an agreement with UN and not with we. UN has not sanctioned this attack and occupation. 3. He is harboring those who attacked us and others. He won't give them up. So we claim the right to go get them ourselves. This is not in any way proved and the perception is a propaganda ploy for the American public. 4. Not a civil war. Americans are supporting the Iraqi people to get rid of Saddam? It is done in the name of the suppressed part of the people and as a help to them. I think that US by this is trying to advertise this as a civil war. You are right, it is not, it is an aggression by a foreign power and against the UN charter. What I don't understand is that you are not supporting Bush/Blair on this issue. 5. Our targets are not civilians; true we some time kill or main the innocent, but so does he. For shock and awe the target is the psychological effect on the general population, their leaders and the military. This is what I said and why I compared shock and awe with Guernica. I still stand for my impression. 6. Saddams policies are causing the death of about 5000 children a month (or do Amnesty Intern. say a year?). We are doing this, For the children. %^) The UN blockade that US refuse to lift, is the direct cause for those death, nothing else. We can discuss the validity or smartness of the blockade itself, but it is no question that US have been very hard on this. US thought that by letting the people suffer, Saddam would be removed by the people. If the medicin and starvation was an issue, it has been many attempt by other nations to stop it. 7. No great works of art will commemorate this action. I am not so sure. Maybe a great Arab painter will do something of this also. Now, answer the question I posed and which was bounced. Would the world be a better place without Saddam in it? Does that have anything to do with the comparison between Guernica and Baghdad? Second question, when I suffer quietly while my country is bashed by those on the list for weeks and then I decided to talk on all comers and defend my homeland, I get bounced in less than 24 hours. Who acting like Dr. Joseph Goerbels here? I think you mean Goebbels and he is recognized as one of the most genius
RE: [biofuel] A biofuels question (sort of)
25 years ago I knew a phD at the lab who just ran 3/4 pvc back and forth in his attic instead of a fan coil unit. He placed the unions outside so if a joint failed it would not flood. He was getting 140 to 160 degree F water in the summer. http://www.solarattic.com/dhw.htm -Original Message- From: robert luis rabello [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 5:35 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] A biofuels question (sort of) Thor Skov wrote: My question is about solar water heating. I'd like to use solar panels and recaptured waste water heat to preheat water, store it in tanks, and then pipe it to electric on-demand heaters at the point of usage. Does anyone know of a design for such a system? I really know nothing about such a system, but am frantically trying to educate myself with whatever materials I can find. Any leads or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thor Skov I remember reading a book about energy efficiency quite a while ago. Although the title eludes me now, one of the things I DO remember is the idea of plumbing bath tub / shower, dishwasher and kitchen sink drains into a basement level holding tank. This could be as simple as an insulated plastic drum. The cold water line that leads into the domestic hot water tank (or tankless heater) would run through a coil at the top of this drum to pick up waste heat that would otherwise just drain into the sewer mains. As new hot water drains from the house into the top of the holding tank, old and cooler water would be drained from the bottom. If you're serious about solar, you might try some of these links. I wanted to explore these options in my own house, but met resistance from the builder and the bank: http://www.acrosolarlasers.com/addition.html http://www.solarattic.com/dhw.htm http://www.solarthermal.com/ A builder friend of mine once said: Anything is possible, as long as there's money. . . Here are some wood friendly links for you to consider: http://alternateheatingsystems.com/wg.htm(These people are having a sale right now. Their smallest gasification boiler is selling for about $6 500 U.S.) http://www.hydro-coil.com/HYDRO~1/Price_sheetx.html Good luck! I used to burn a lot of wood, and I miss having a fire in the house! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.463 / Virus Database: 262 - Release Date: 3/17/2003 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] A biofuels question (sort of)
I remember a grey water system article in Mother Earth News where the heat was recovered from waste water , and used to flush the toilets. There was a system where heat was stored in barrels of water in the basement as well. Perhaps someone has an index from Mother Earth and can find the articles. Heating by solar is quite common, where sunshine is available. Where I live we are very short of daylight hours in winter when we need the heat. Also there is the freezing problem when circulating water outdoors in winter. Some manufacturers claim to have all climate systems that work. I read about one such system at http://www.solarroofs.com/ They have an automatic shut down built in so when freezing happens, it drains the outdoor system. To have a system work here in the bitter cold north, you would have to run antifreeze and a heat exchanger to get any appreciable run time in winter. EdB - Original Message - From: Thor Skov To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 5:23 PM Subject: [biofuel] A biofuels question (sort of) OK, I lied, this isn't about biofuels per se, but rather about home energy generation. I am rebuilding my house in Seattle, and want to go with passive solar heating supplemented with an efficient wood fireplace insert (see, biofuels!). My question is about solar water heating. I'd like to use solar panels and recaptured waste water heat to preheat water, store it in tanks, and then pipe it to electric on-demand heaters at the point of usage. Does anyone know of a design for such a system? I really know nothing about such a system, but am frantically trying to educate myself with whatever materials I can find. Any leads or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thor Skov __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] A biofuels question (sort of)
Thor, I am doing the part of solar heating and heat on demand in my house and it works fine. It is however somewhat different to what you are describing, depending on what you mean with point of demand. You must have separate feed of hot and cold water to the point of demand. I have a tank of 300 liter, heated by solar panels. It then goes through a direct heat exchanger. If the solar heated water is over 60 degree Celsius, it goes directly to the hot water tap, if it is under, the direct heater make up for the difference. I have plans of getting additions from a wood cassette and running pipes through the waste chamber deposit tanks. I need however a much larger hot water tank for this and will add 300 to 500 more. This because of the very high energy output from the wood cassette. It is some special thoughts around this and it will need thermic valves and separate hot water tanks. For the moment it is better to only have the solar. Hakan At 03:23 PM 3/23/2003 -0800, you wrote: OK, I lied, this isn't about biofuels per se, but rather about home energy generation. I am rebuilding my house in Seattle, and want to go with passive solar heating supplemented with an efficient wood fireplace insert (see, biofuels!). My question is about solar water heating. I'd like to use solar panels and recaptured waste water heat to preheat water, store it in tanks, and then pipe it to electric on-demand heaters at the point of usage. Does anyone know of a design for such a system? I really know nothing about such a system, but am frantically trying to educate myself with whatever materials I can find. Any leads or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thor Skov Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Master Puzzler for Biofuelers...
Boil [remove water], filter, try to make fuel? I don't know, slop from a dumpster could have anything in it. I would assume it would be possible to press potato chips and get oil out. They soak up a lot of oil from the deep-frying process. There are bacteria used to eat oil. For example in Lake Placid, NY they had a problem with grease in the sewer. So they dumped grease-eating bacteria in the sewer. Problem solved.. sort of. The grease down the drain in the first place is interesting. Appal Energy wrote: Okay, so it's easy to throw 10 or 15 pounds of burger chips and grill scrapings into a compost heap. What the opossums and raccoons don't get the worms will. But has anyone seen any type of an inexpensive hydraulic ram set up that can get the last drops of fat out of the solids prior to composting? Approximately 10% out of every 250 gallon dumpster is a boatload of high oil content slop. Too much to just feed to the hogs and too much in short order to simply compost without reducing the oil content first. Todd Swearingen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- --- Martin Klingensmith http://nnytech.net/ http://infoarchive.net/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] ethanol mixtures
As someone else said 10% would be fine. Don't bother buying anything higher than 87 octane if you add the ethanol, the ethanol will raise the octane a couple points. You may want to consider adding some dry gas if you mix the gasoline with ethanol. Water will cause problems with the mixture. Jack Kenworthy wrote: can anyone tell me the maximum amount of ethanol that you can blend with gasoline and burn in an unmodified gasoline engine? I have a 55 gall drum of ethanol lying around that I can't make biodiesel with and I am looking for a suitable use. thanks. jk Jack Kenworthy Sustainable Systems Director The Cape Eleuthera Island School 242-359-7625 ph. 954-252-2224 fax www.islandschool.org [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- --- Martin Klingensmith http://nnytech.net/ http://infoarchive.net/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Assasins and suicide bombers...
On Sat, 22 Mar 2003 05:03 am, Greg and April wrote: I knew it went back farther than WW2, just couldn't find a reference. Do you have some I can check out? yerah, somewhere, but I'd have to dig... I suggest google... wait... *sigh* just googled for assasin and history... no useful hits, but lots and lots of game stats and character/film references Make you doubt the intelligence of the human race cool! got one! and it looks pretty good too. enjoy... http://www.iis.ac.uk/learning/life_long_learning/assassin_legends/assassin_legends.htm -- Dr Paul van den Bergen Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures caia.swin.edu.au [EMAIL PROTECTED] IM:bulwynkl2002 It's a book. Non-volatile storage media. Everyone should have one. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Master Puzzler for Biofuelers...
Martin, That's the standard practice done here, or at least heating the fats and oils to 140*F and let to settle. But it's the bottom 10% of the meats and chips and fines mixed with oil that needs to have as much oil pressed out of it as possible. Up to this point I was contemplating a 25 gallon capacity metal screen in cylindrical form, reinforced with steel, running both horizontal and vertical, throwing a thick bag filter inside the sleeve, filling with the slime left over from every couple hundred gallons of oil, placing a circular steel plate on top of the bag and applying slow but constant pressure using a screw or hydraulic press. It could cost as much to fabricate as might a small refurbished oilseed press, presuming that an oilseed press could do the job. At the moment an oilseed press is not on my shopping list. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 8:24 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Master Puzzler for Biofuelers... Boil [remove water], filter, try to make fuel? I don't know, slop from a dumpster could have anything in it. I would assume it would be possible to press potato chips and get oil out. They soak up a lot of oil from the deep-frying process. There are bacteria used to eat oil. For example in Lake Placid, NY they had a problem with grease in the sewer. So they dumped grease-eating bacteria in the sewer. Problem solved.. sort of. The grease down the drain in the first place is interesting. Appal Energy wrote: Okay, so it's easy to throw 10 or 15 pounds of burger chips and grill scrapings into a compost heap. What the opossums and raccoons don't get the worms will. But has anyone seen any type of an inexpensive hydraulic ram set up that can get the last drops of fat out of the solids prior to composting? Approximately 10% out of every 250 gallon dumpster is a boatload of high oil content slop. Too much to just feed to the hogs and too much in short order to simply compost without reducing the oil content first. Todd Swearingen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- --- Martin Klingensmith http://nnytech.net/ http://infoarchive.net/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Biofuel] Crude Oil Price
On Fri, 21 Mar 2003 09:56 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2) Mistaken my quote It's a book. oops! (silly mistake) J yeah. All the best ones are... If one considers that, with a few notable exception (napalm and nylon), most discoveries occur with a that's funny instead of a eureka!, then mistakes are the biggest sorce of advancement mankind knows... so by that rational, I am one of the most prolific researchers I know :-) -- Dr Paul van den Bergen Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures caia.swin.edu.au [EMAIL PROTECTED] IM:bulwynkl2002 It's a book. Non-volatile storage media. Everyone should have one. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Master Puzzler for Biofuelers...
Boil [remove water], filter, try to make fuel? I don't know, slop from a dumpster could have anything in it. I'd be most concerned about high levels of saturated fats -- that's what usually inspires ME to throw out the last of a barrel. The sat. fats continue to settle in the barrel -- even- tually you get an oil that would give a biodiesel like butter :-) What I need is a good way to utilize (or dispose of) THAT crap. -K Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Fwd: [Burnveggies] excise tax, biodiesel, and war
On Sat, 22 Mar 2003 09:34 am, girl_mark_fire wrote: Calif. does have the most expensive fuel prices (petroleum, not just biodiesel) in the US- and that's not necessarily the fault of taxes- just fuel sellers taking advantage of their random and corporate right to charge people whatever the hell they want. We're looking at $2.19 minimum for 89 octane gasoline at the moment, much higher for higher octane stuff. World Energy biodiesel is $3.40 a gallon in SF. oh well. Doesn't affect me- my biodiesel still costs 43 cents a gallon. thanks for the clarifications on your tax situation! still seems to me that the problem is that this is just not a high enough cost for oil... given that the co.s that produce it will never have to pay for cleaning up the damage it is doing to the planet... so biodiesel at 43c/gallon is cheap not just because it is less cost, but because there is no associated damage to the wrold as a result of using it (other than a bit of heat polution... - and neglecting the cost of making cars... and the fact that in general we use way more stuff than we relly need. OK, maybe not a stirling example, but still, a darn sight better than petrodiesel...) -- Dr Paul van den Bergen Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures caia.swin.edu.au [EMAIL PROTECTED] IM:bulwynkl2002 It's a book. Non-volatile storage media. Everyone should have one. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Sasol - was [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS
On Fri, 21 Mar 2003 05:14 pm, Keith Addison wrote: --- We have in Canada, a massive store of petroleum in the Athabasca Tar Sands. Estimates are that it is 400 times (or was it 4,000) times the known regular world oil reserves. It is oil soaked shale, costly to extract. there are so many things wrong with shale oil... a while ago I was looking at various patents (the co i was working for had a neat idea as to how to process this stuff... thank god they went belly up). basically, I found a really scary patent. to extract oil from coal and/or shale oil, you have to heat it up (Pyrolise it in low O2 atm.). this does 2 things, it vapourises teh volitile fraction and breaks (cracks) the non-volitile into liquid or gaseous fractions. One patent involved rubblising the shale oil insitu (e.g. underground) then setting fire to it and collecting the liquids and gasses driven off. Now in most places in the world, underground fires are avoided... anyone see the series of articles in NS recently talking about the bushfires in indonesia being ignited by coal seam fires? -- Dr Paul van den Bergen Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures caia.swin.edu.au [EMAIL PROTECTED] IM:bulwynkl2002 It's a book. Non-volatile storage media. Everyone should have one. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Banning Paul
On Sun, 23 Mar 2003 11:35 pm, Mark Ehle wrote: I am brand new member on this list. When do we start talking about biofuel? I know you are trying damn hard to ignore it, but i believe this was a sarcastic comment about the amount of OT content, especially about the current hostilities, liberals versus conservatives, and other marginally biodiesel discussion on the list at the moment... sure I would prefer the discussion to be more on topic. 150 emails in a weekend is quite hefty. but then a judicious choice of which emails I read helps... -- Dr Paul van den Bergen Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures caia.swin.edu.au [EMAIL PROTECTED] IM:bulwynkl2002 It's a book. Non-volatile storage media. Everyone should have one. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Master Puzzler for Biofuelers...
On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 01:16 pm, Ken Provost wrote: Boil [remove water], filter, try to make fuel? I don't know, slop from a dumpster could have anything in it. I'd be most concerned about high levels of saturated fats -- that's what usually inspires ME to throw out the last of a barrel. The sat. fats continue to settle in the barrel -- even- tually you get an oil that would give a biodiesel like butter :-) What I need is a good way to utilize (or dispose of) THAT crap. -K wouldn't you be better off keeping the high grade stuff (e.g. initial waste oil) as you biodiesel feed stock and using the waste being discussed here in some sort of methane digestor to produce a nice high grade methane feedstock - e.g. for use to make methanol? I seem to recall something about using methane and a catalyst in air to make methanol and that it was a relatively easy process... curse my feeble memory... Zubrin was talking a lot about fuel making processes for Mars colonisation... -- Dr Paul van den Bergen Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures caia.swin.edu.au [EMAIL PROTECTED] IM:bulwynkl2002 It's a book. Non-volatile storage media. Everyone should have one. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] ethanol mixtures
On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 09:42 am, Jack Kenworthy wrote: I have a 55 gall drum of ethanol lying around that I can't make biodiesel with out of curiosity, why not? -- Dr Paul van den Bergen Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures caia.swin.edu.au [EMAIL PROTECTED] IM:bulwynkl2002 It's a book. Non-volatile storage media. Everyone should have one. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] A biofuels question (sort of)
On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:23 am, Thor Skov wrote: OK, I lied, this isn't about biofuels per se, but rather about home energy generation. I am rebuilding my house in Seattle, and want to go with passive solar heating supplemented with an efficient wood fireplace insert (see, biofuels!). my only comment on this is be aware of wood stove emmissions. In cities they seriously contribute to asthma causing smog. they are banned in my local municipality in all new homes... people still install them though... *sigh* My question is about solar water heating. I'd like to use solar panels and recaptured waste water heat to preheat water, store it in tanks, and then pipe it to electric on-demand heaters at the point of usage. Does anyone know of a design for such a system? No hints I am afraid, but one comment I would make is that Si based solar panels decrease dramatically in efficiency when heated. so solar hot water and solar power generation are contra-indicated. infact it is worth your while to water cool you solar panels if you have access to cheap (rain) water... there is a new type of solar panel - DSC - that utilises a different type of electricity generation - nano-particle TiO2 and a photosensitive dye - that increases efficiency with temperature... I was thinking of setting up a parabolic trough lined with alfoil, a strip of these panels and backing them with hot water pipes but I have too many other projects going at the moment, so it will have to wait... -- Dr Paul van den Bergen Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures caia.swin.edu.au [EMAIL PROTECTED] IM:bulwynkl2002 It's a book. Non-volatile storage media. Everyone should have one. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] One Litre Line
I hope some of you can help explain to me what I have seen of late. I am a biodiesel novice and no chemist. I have spent a couple of months now building my one-litre biodiesel processing plant. This is intended to model my plans for a larger 100-150 litre setup to come later. But I want to keep my early mistakes small (and I make plenty to learn from). The reactor is a scavenged slow cooker, which does a reasonable job of keeping the mixture at about 50 degrees C at the lowest setting. Agitation is provided by a discarded mix master with one beater that is lowered into the cooker while attached to a plexiglas splatter shield. The settling tank is a 1.8 litre glass jar, and the washing tank is a 2-litre glass jar with 2 small air stones, a 5-gallon aquarium pump, plastic tubing and a large steel washer as a weight. The first batch was done with fresh vegetable oil. I made the methoxide using 200 ml of methanol and 3.5 grams of lye. The titration results were bizarre the first time, and closer to the expected result the second time. I went with Mike Pelly's recommended recipe for the one-litre test batch. I put the oil into the reactor, then the methoxide. All went as expected from my reading. I allowed the mixing to go for about an hour, then drained the lot into the settling tank. The separation began quite quickly, and after a couple of days there was a creamy coloured precipitate layer at the bottom, but less than I expected. I estimate a bit less than 10% of the total volume (say about 100 ml). Does this make sense given it was fresh oil instead of waste oil? I let the batch settle for about 2 weeks, and then transferred the oil to the washing tank, drawing the oil off from the top. I noticed at this time that there seemed to be some dendritic material, almost like wisps of white cotton candy, growing up from the sediment layer. Any ideas on what that is? Onto the washing. I set up the washer with the stones at the bottom of the jar, then added about 500 ml of tap water, more or less the Idaho method, as I understand it anyway. Then I added the oil, a little over a litre, so presumably containing some methanol/methoxide. Before I started the bubbling, there was a significant white layer above the water and below the oil. Reminded me of mayonnaise. I suspect a water/methoxide reaction, as I see no visible reaction when I mixed methanol and water for comparison. Oh, no vinegar used. When I was finally set to go tonight, not a drop to be found in the house. I'll be sure to correct that before the next washing. After I started the bubbling, the mayonnaise came to look more like white aquarium stone or rock salt. Anyway, the wash is under way now. Bubbling froth at the top was ferocious initially, but after 20 minutes it has subsided a lot. The mix is quite opaque and a dark cream colour now. I have had to stop the bubbling a little after an hour, as one of the air stones has disintegrated (12 hours was recommended). It is starting to settle out again, looks like there will be a good pile of whitish precipitate once settling is done. The second batch was made from lightly used vegetable oil (to deep fry a turkey), but has been stored for some time since then. Titration indicated 1.5 ml, so I used 5 grams of lye (1.5 + 3.5) and 200 ml methanol. This batch frothed some during the stirring phase, which I did not notice with the first batch (fresh oil). The separation started slower, but there is much more precipitate this time (at least 25%). However, there are a few of the dendritic white threads suspended in the clearer oil, apparently due to having trapped some bubbles which are keeping them buoyant. I'm sure they'll filter out in the next transfer. So, now that I actually have some experiences to report, I would also like to thank Tom Leue for putting up with us for an afternoon last November when we brought the snow to Massachusetts. His tour of the facility and advice were, and are, much appreciated. So anything you can tell me about what I have described, or any mistakes you can see I am making, please let me know. Darryl McMahon Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
friendly housing was Re: [biofuel] A biofuels question (sort of)
A friend of mine was/is building a recycled house. He used wooden beams from a factory being torn down. The structure is either a hexagon or a decagon shape, I can't remember exactly. It has a center concrete column, this is where the interesting part is. There is a heavy wood stove at the bottom inside the concrete column, with exhaust ducts looping through the inside of the column. The column was filled with a couple tons of sand. His plan was to be able to fire the stove at a high heat once or twice per day, and get all the energy necessary to heat the concrete column and it's several tons of thermal mass up to a decent temperature. I've been at college so I don't know how well it has worked this winter. I'll get back to you on that. Oh, the outside walls were built using cord wood and papercrete. The roof is about 18 inches thick, consisting [top to bottom] wood [recycled], foam insulation?, hot-rolled roofing, plastic sheeting, gravel, soil, grass. I helped put the soil on the roof - a power-lifting ladder and 5 gallon buckets, the rest of the work being manual labor [I'm tall, my back hurt bad the next day!]. From a distance the building looks very nice. It appears to be of stone construction. He chose the least arable land I could buy. All-in-all quite an interesting house. It's not connected to the electrical grid either. Solar, wind power only. -- --- Martin Klingensmith http://nnytech.net/ http://infoarchive.net/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Master Puzzler for Biofuelers...
If you thought you had the skills to fabricate it yourself, it shouldn't cost too much. I don't know how much used seed presses cost. I live in a degenerated agriculture area. I don't know if anyone around here ever grew crops to extract the oil. Appal Energy wrote: Martin, That's the standard practice done here, or at least heating the fats and oils to 140*F and let to settle. But it's the bottom 10% of the meats and chips and fines mixed with oil that needs to have as much oil pressed out of it as possible. Up to this point I was contemplating a 25 gallon capacity metal screen in cylindrical form, reinforced with steel, running both horizontal and vertical, throwing a thick bag filter inside the sleeve, filling with the slime left over from every couple hundred gallons of oil, placing a circular steel plate on top of the bag and applying slow but constant pressure using a screw or hydraulic press. It could cost as much to fabricate as might a small refurbished oilseed press, presuming that an oilseed press could do the job. At the moment an oilseed press is not on my shopping list. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 8:24 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Master Puzzler for Biofuelers... -- --- Martin Klingensmith http://nnytech.net/ http://infoarchive.net/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Guernica
Hi Hakan So now Paul Schwartz chooses to continue his foolishness off-list by writing to you. He sent me two more letters off-list, both sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED], but addressing me by name, so he knows the score on that well enough. In the first he protested again that he'd been booted for his opinions (not!), then in the second it finally dawned on him that, as my message had said in the first place, his posting privileges had been suspended until he'd apologized to Andrew - but that I'd stopped him doing that by banning him (not!). By this time, please take note, his posting privileges had been restored, as I'd said on the list, as he had apologized to Andrew (though indirectly). So he had in fact, in his bumbling fashion, succeeded in submitting his apology, by the obvious route, and had not been stopped from doing so, had not been banned, had not been bounced in less than 24 hours, and his posting privileges had been restored, as promised, but he hadn't figured that out yet. (This person presumes to be teaching me about list management, LOL!) It's hard to find anything he got right, but this is his conclusion, no matter what, and I'm sure it's completely unshakable: Good one Keith, I apologize, you ban my posts so they won't go through and then say I wasn't banned, I had my posting privileges revoked until I apologize--but, you won't let me apologize. You know, I think that's really clever. It's clear you want no dissent on your board. So I'll go away, I have to earn a living and this is taking up too much of my time. But, we know what really happened here. Paul Right from the start, he instantly jumped to the conclusion (along with others in the war party) that his precious views were being unjustly suppressed - WHILE CRITICIZING ME FOR NOT SUPPRESSING THE VIEWS OF THOSE HE DISAGREES WITH, as others in the war party continued to do all along, baying for the USA bashers to be silenced (but not them of course). And with this ludicrous series of fact-free disconnects he proves it - Viola! - suppression of his views! And the rest of the war party will believe it too. But, we know what really happened here. So he unsubscribed. Despite the incompetence of its delivery, his apology to Andrew was accepted, his posting privileges restored as promised - everything exactly as promised: but try telling the guy he wasn't banned because of his views. Naah, he knows better. From below, off-list to Hakan: Second question, when I suffer quietly while my country is bashed by those on the list for weeks and then I decided to talk on all comers and defend my homeland, I get bounced in less than 24 hours. Who acting like Dr. Joseph Goerbels here? See? Bounced. Nothing about his calling Andrew a fascist of course. (From mice to gerbils, LOL!) He did get a reply: But, we know what really happened here. WE do, but you're just kidding yourself. So what. Which is about as much as it bothers me. If people want to fool themselves, that's their problem. But this kind of weak-minded denial and obfuscation here is list-pollution, and that's my problem. So he's gone, good riddance. That much less noise. Keith Paul, Since I learned that you have the posting rights again and I hope that name calling is no longer necessary, I will post may answer on the list as follows, At 11:31 AM 3/23/2003 -0800, you wrote: My replies to the group have apparently been blocked, although I am getting the posts. So for the time being, I assume my presence is unwelcome in the forum. I did post a reply, but it came back to me. I suggest you talk to the list monitor and ask him for a copy, if he still has it. Apparently, I can be called names, but I can't return the favor. I do believe that Liberals and the Left, in general, are more intolerant of dissent than the conservatives. I fully and completely disagree with your identification of Andrew, even if I agreed I am upset about someone saying it. I have full understanding of Keith reaction and I am happy that you now can post your apology. The short answer Your answer might to some extent cover the Spanish civil war, but not Guernica. Now it is my turn to wonder if you know what you are talking about. Spain: 1. Civil war Yes, and with the Franco's side heavily supported by the Germans. By this helping the Spanish people to get rid of the legal Government. 2. Terrorist act committed by the Spanish, and their proxies, on the Spanish. No, committed by the German pilots and planes, who flew the Stukas used in Guernica. It was the first live test of terror bombing tactics, developed by the Germans. Later frequently used by Germans and the opposite side in WWII. 3. Intended targets were civilians. The target is the psychological effect on the general population, their leaders and the military. In absolute number of civilian casualties (collateral damage) Baghdad is probably larger, but in percentage of the
[biofuel] Hot water tank - was Re: Impact of Energy Price Rise
Hi Todd, Robert If memory serves, there was at one time a pink-bubble wrapped hot water tank fastened inside some sort of wood frame that was being touted as a vacuous processor or something similar. :-) Don't be rude. Vacuum. Or was it a site that was referenced on this list and hot linked to? No, memory succesfully jogged, thankyou. That's Dale's touchless processor, I forgot it was a water heater tank, and didn't at all connect it with the glass-lined tank Robert found - would Dale's tank be glass-lined? Anyway, it's here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html#touchfree Dale's message to the list about it is here: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=2021list=BIOFUEL Best Keith Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 4:07 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Impact of Energy Price Rise snip As for the hot water tank, I believe that JTF had an example of just that at one time or another. Did we? It doesn't ring a bell - can you jog my memory a bit? Keith Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 2:55 PM Subject: [biofuel] Impact of Energy Price Rise snip By the way, I found a discarded electric water heater with a glass lined tank that looks like it's in good shape. I'm tempted to tear it apart and see what might be salvageable. Has anyone used such a thing for biodiesel production? robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Impact of Energy Price Rise
Some of the people on this list have expressed delight at the higher gasoline prices we're seeing. Here in Vancouver, a liter of regular currently ranges from about .74 to as high as .87, depending on the area. We're starting to see these higher prices impact food costs, so even vegetable oils or saccharine feed stocks that require transportation from point of harvest to point of use will also rise. Hello Robert, Nymex Crude Crude Oil price has dropped to about $27 USD from $38/barrel. Gasoline pump prices have dropped from $1.829/US gallon ($0.48/litre) to $1.649 ($0.43/litre) and as low as $1.529/US gallon ($0.40/litre) here abouts. AAA Current State Averages: Click on state for detailed information *Prices Are In US Dollars Per Gallon. http://198.6.95.31/sbsavg.asp I haven't noticed any food price increases except moo milk ranging from $1.68 to $1.89/US gallon. Ice cream prices are usually up at this time of year here in America's Dairyland. This Week In Petroleum http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/twip/twip.asp has some interesting US information. International Energy Price Information http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/prices.html can also be interesting weekly. California Energy Commission http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/ has excellent price links and charts for ethanol petroleum product for CA and across the states. U.S. Gasoline Crude Oil Prices by Year 1930-1999 chart http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/statistics/us_gas+oilprices_1918-1999.html Fuel Ethanol Prices (Last 10 Years) http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/graphs/ethanol_10-year.html Gasoline Taxes by State 1998 Alaska 26.3 cents, Hawaii 54.7 cents. http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/statistics/gas_taxes_by_state.html Current Methanol Price http://www.methanex.com/methanol/currentprice.htm The Methanex non-discounted US reference price for March 2003 is $273 per tonne (82.0 cents per gallon). According to industry consultants, Chemical Market Associates Inc. (CMAI), US Gulf net transaction pricing for barges was $263 per tonne (or 79.0 cents per gallon) during the month of February 2003. As of March 14, 2003, CMAI lists US Gulf Coast spot pricing for barges between $286 and $306 per tonne (or 86.0 and 92.0 cents per gallon). In Europe, the first quarter 2003 contract list price FOB Rotterdam represented a price of 228 Euros, or approximately $238 per tonne (72.0 cents per gallon) at the time quarterly pricing was established. As of March 14, 2003, CMAI quoted spot pricing in the Asia/Pacific region between $284 and $302 per tonne (or 85.4 and 90.8 cents per gallon), depending on location. Methanex's average realized price for the 12 months ended December 31, 2002 was $155 per tonne (47.0 cents per gallon) compared with $172 per tonne (52.0 cents per gallon) for the year ended December 31, 2001. __ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hot water tank - was Re: Impact of Energy Price Rise
Hey Keith, No, memory succesfully jogged, thankyou. That's Dale's touchless processor, I forgot it was a water heater tank, and didn't at all connect it with the glass-lined tank Robert found - would Dale's tank be glass-lined? Chances are more than good. It's one of the two norms - glass lined and not :-) Dale would probably know by now if his wasn't. It's been around for a couple of years, yes? Todd Anyway, it's here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html#touchfree Dale's message to the list about it is here: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=2021list=BIOFUEL Best Keith Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 4:07 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Impact of Energy Price Rise snip As for the hot water tank, I believe that JTF had an example of just that at one time or another. Did we? It doesn't ring a bell - can you jog my memory a bit? Keith Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 2:55 PM Subject: [biofuel] Impact of Energy Price Rise snip By the way, I found a discarded electric water heater with a glass lined tank that looks like it's in good shape. I'm tempted to tear it apart and see what might be salvageable. Has anyone used such a thing for biodiesel production? robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Master Puzzler for Biofuelers...
Have you considered making up a centrifuge to spin the mass and get the oil out? Some of the apple growers have adapted Scharf spin dryers and even washing machines for use as a centrifuge in cider production. EdB - Original Message - From: Appal Energy To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 8:08 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Master Puzzler for Biofuelers... Martin, That's the standard practice done here, or at least heating the fats and oils to 140*F and let to settle. But it's the bottom 10% of the meats and chips and fines mixed with oil that needs to have as much oil pressed out of it as possible. Up to this point I was contemplating a 25 gallon capacity metal screen in cylindrical form, reinforced with steel, running both horizontal and vertical, throwing a thick bag filter inside the sleeve, filling with the slime left over from every couple hundred gallons of oil, placing a circular steel plate on top of the bag and applying slow but constant pressure using a screw or hydraulic press. It could cost as much to fabricate as might a small refurbished oilseed press, presuming that an oilseed press could do the job. At the moment an oilseed press is not on my shopping list. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 8:24 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Master Puzzler for Biofuelers... Boil [remove water], filter, try to make fuel? I don't know, slop from a dumpster could have anything in it. I would assume it would be possible to press potato chips and get oil out. They soak up a lot of oil from the deep-frying process. There are bacteria used to eat oil. For example in Lake Placid, NY they had a problem with grease in the sewer. So they dumped grease-eating bacteria in the sewer. Problem solved.. sort of. The grease down the drain in the first place is interesting. Appal Energy wrote: Okay, so it's easy to throw 10 or 15 pounds of burger chips and grill scrapings into a compost heap. What the opossums and raccoons don't get the worms will. But has anyone seen any type of an inexpensive hydraulic ram set up that can get the last drops of fat out of the solids prior to composting? Approximately 10% out of every 250 gallon dumpster is a boatload of high oil content slop. Too much to just feed to the hogs and too much in short order to simply compost without reducing the oil content first. Todd Swearingen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- --- Martin Klingensmith http://nnytech.net/ http://infoarchive.net/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hot water tank
Keith Addison wrote: No, memory succesfully jogged, thankyou. That's Dale's touchless processor, I forgot it was a water heater tank, and didn't at all connect it with the glass-lined tank Robert found - would Dale's tank be glass-lined? Anyway, it's here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html#touchfree Alack! The tank is NOT glass lined--its plain steel. I took the whole device apart this afternoon and will have to thoroughly wash the thing to rid it of accumulated rust and its rather nasty chlorine smell. It has threaded provisions for a lower inlet and an upper outlet, some kind of clean out on the top that is too tough for me to remove, and of course, a standard 1 500 watt electric heating element. It holds 12 Imperial gallons, whatever those are, and would probably make for an easy ethanol still conversion. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] From the barrel of oil
http://www.downtoearth.org.in/cover.asp?foldername=20021031filename=M iscsid=1sec_id=9 down to earth, online Oct 31 02 From the barrel of oil Geopolitics is not only about war and peace. It is about controlling the world resources, particularly 'black gold'. Several international conflicts in recent times have been sparked by the need to control oil fields. The world's dependence on oil is complete. Yet insecurity about energy supply is greater than ever before. With war clouds hovering over Iraq and the conference on climate change coming up in Delhi, Down To Earth digs into the role of oil in global politics Reuters The US President George W Bush is raring to launch an attack on Iraq. Whether it has weapons of mass destruction or not, Iraq certainly has the world's second largest reserves of petroleum after Saudi Arabia. Thanks to UN sanctions, it produces a mere fraction of its potential. The US, on the other hand, is the world's largest consumer and importer of oil. It is certain whatever else, the desire to control Iraq's oil lubricates the US war machinery. As the daily Washington Post reports, US oil companies are ready - drills and all - to enter the Iraqi oilfields after Saddam Hussein's removal. Oil companies from the other four permanent member countries in the UN Security Council (the UK, France, Russia and China) also have interests in Iraqi oil fields. The US oil tactics are clear. Countries that participate in the US effort against Hussein will get a fair share in the post-Hussein Iraqi oil party. It's pretty straightforward. France and Russia have oil companies and interests in Iraq, said R James Woolsey, former director of the Central Intelligence Agency, who is all for attacking Iraq. They should be told that if they are of assistance in moving Iraq towards a decent government, we'll do the best we can to ensure that the new government and American companies work closely with them. Elements favoured to constitute a 'decent government' in Iraq - if Hussein is ousted in a US-led attack, that is - include the Iraqi National Congress (INC), a forum of opposition groups backed by the US. The Western media quoted an INC leader, Ahmed Chalabi, as saying that he favoured the creation of a US-led consortium to develop Iraqi oilfields: American companies will have a big shot at Iraqi oil. Several countries, including India, Italy, Vietnam and Algeria, already have agreements with Iraq to extract oil. But these are in the cold bag due to the UN sanctions on Iraq. In a post-Hussein Iraq, these agreements are likely to be scrapped in favour of US companies. All this speculation has led to a rapid rise in oil prices -hovering close to US $30 to the barrel, US $5 of which is being labelled 'war premium'. There are fears that it might climb beyond US $50 and set in a recession as had happened after the 1991 Gulf War. Just before a meeting of ministers of Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC, a cartel that keeps oil prices unnaturally high by controlling production through quotas) in Osaka, Japan, in the third week of September 2002, the most influential member of OPEC, Saudi Arabia, a US ally, had said that it would increase supplies of oil to compensate any shortfall resulting from US military action against Iraq. But, at the Osaka meet, OPEC ministers decided to keep oil production levels unchanged till the end of the year as they were afraid of releasing extra oil into a weakening global economy. Major oil producers are unhappy with the prospect of the opening up of Iraq's oilfields. They fear the glut of oil might drive down the prices. The Iraq imbroglio is also about the US need to control the Saudi oil regime with competing reserves, according to The Economist. But why is oil so important to international politics? Oil that glitters Petroleum fuels the engines of the global economy. So there is never enough of it. Oil politics dictates international relations The post-war boom had brought gas-guzzling vehicles, expanding highways and mushrooming suburbs in the industrialised countries, especially the US. This boom was fuelled by oil - the industrialised economies depended almost entirely on intensive use of fossil fuels. The world learned about its dependence on oil in 1973. * Nuclear change for climate The Yom Kippur War broke out in October 1973 between Arab countries and Israel. The Arab nations embargoed oil export to Western nations that supported Israel and cut down production. OPEC, formed in 1960, was a big enough supplier to control prices by this time. The result was chaos in all the industrialised countries. The cost of a barrel of crude oil rose from US $3 in 1972 to US $12 by 1974. This 'oil shock' forced the West to chalk out an aggressive plan to free itself of the clutches of OPEC. Securing supplies of oil, increasing domestic production and importing from varied sources
Re: [biofuel] Master Puzzler for Biofuelers...
What exactly is vegetable oil, chemically? I know it's not just a plain hydrocarbon -- at least I think. Ken Provost wrote: Boil [remove water], filter, try to make fuel? I don't know, slop from a dumpster could have anything in it. I'd be most concerned about high levels of saturated fats -- that's what usually inspires ME to throw out the last of a barrel. The sat. fats continue to settle in the barrel -- even- tually you get an oil that would give a biodiesel like butter :-) What I need is a good way to utilize (or dispose of) THAT crap. -K -- --- Martin Klingensmith http://nnytech.net/ http://infoarchive.net/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Master Puzzler for Biofuelers...
Yahh..., Something along those lines. But it would have to be a vertical log splitter. Still have to design a screen basket that won't split under the pressure. I suppose I could go to the museum and ask if I can rent one of Guttenberg's first screw presses. After all, he's not using it anymore. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Donald Strong [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 4:42 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Master Puzzler for Biofuelers... OIL PRESS Todd: How about modifying one of the common log splitters ? ( think potato ricer on the end of the ram). Don Strong, proud tennis-ball machine Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Master Puzzler for Biofuelers...
And to think...all I wanted to do was squeeze the guts out of a few hundred pounds of oil soaked burger chips I wouldn't consider the saturated fats necessarily a low grade feedstock, nor the biodiesel from same to necessarily be inferior. It would just have a higher cloud point is all. Still a perfectly good fuel under most conditions. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: paul van den bergen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 9:41 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Master Puzzler for Biofuelers... On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 01:16 pm, Ken Provost wrote: Boil [remove water], filter, try to make fuel? I don't know, slop from a dumpster could have anything in it. I'd be most concerned about high levels of saturated fats -- that's what usually inspires ME to throw out the last of a barrel. The sat. fats continue to settle in the barrel -- even- tually you get an oil that would give a biodiesel like butter :-) What I need is a good way to utilize (or dispose of) THAT crap. -K wouldn't you be better off keeping the high grade stuff (e.g. initial waste oil) as you biodiesel feed stock and using the waste being discussed here in some sort of methane digestor to produce a nice high grade methane feedstock - e.g. for use to make methanol? I seem to recall something about using methane and a catalyst in air to make methanol and that it was a relatively easy process... curse my feeble memory... Zubrin was talking a lot about fuel making processes for Mars colonisation... -- Dr Paul van den Bergen Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures caia.swin.edu.au [EMAIL PROTECTED] IM:bulwynkl2002 It's a book. Non-volatile storage media. Everyone should have one. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Master Puzzler for Biofuelers...
Paul writes: wouldn't you be better off keeping the high grade stuff (e.g. initial waste oil) as your biodiesel feed stock and using the waste being discussed here in some sort of methane digester to produce a nice high grade methane feedstock- e.g. for use to make methanol? I'm not sure about bugs that convert lipids to methane -- seems most methane generators use carbohydrates, in fact, cellulose. Poop, agri- cultural wastes, that sort of thing. I think real heavy grease wouldn't do well in a compost pile, for example. -K Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Master Puzzler for Biofuelers...
All veg oils and animal fats are composites of different fatty acids in different ratios, ie palmitic, stearic, arachnic, linoleic, lanoleic, etc. These acids are generally bound to a glycerin molecule, erego the term triglycerides. The ratios of these constituent acids (oils) differ from oilseed to oilseed. Thus some oils are solid at room temp, such as palm and coconut, some make harder or more lathery soaps and some make biodiesel that gels or clouds at lower temps than others Not all oils and fats are created equal. In fact, none of them. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 11:19 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Master Puzzler for Biofuelers... What exactly is vegetable oil, chemically? I know it's not just a plain hydrocarbon -- at least I think. Ken Provost wrote: Boil [remove water], filter, try to make fuel? I don't know, slop from a dumpster could have anything in it. I'd be most concerned about high levels of saturated fats -- that's what usually inspires ME to throw out the last of a barrel. The sat. fats continue to settle in the barrel -- even- tually you get an oil that would give a biodiesel like butter :-) What I need is a good way to utilize (or dispose of) THAT crap. -K -- --- Martin Klingensmith http://nnytech.net/ http://infoarchive.net/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Master Puzzler for Biofuelers...
On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 03:30 pm, Appal Energy wrote: And to think...all I wanted to do was squeeze the guts out of a few hundred pounds of oil soaked burger chips I wouldn't consider the saturated fats necessarily a low grade feedstock, nor the biodiesel from same to necessarily be inferior. It would just have a higher cloud point is all. Still a perfectly good fuel under most conditions. Todd Swearingen Just to clarify what I mean by high grade versus low grade. It may be a high grade fuel once you seperate it from all the rest of the junk, thus the desire to press it. But (IMHO) it is low grade, atleast wrt WVO as you do need to do an additional step to extract the value. high grade (or high value if you prefer) implies to my mind little or no processing or inexpensive/low tech/simple/cheap equipment to process it. especially where the energy input is low or free. low grade implies to me that the opposite is true. The fuel source contains lots of contamination or materials that are hard to remove or requires expensive equipment, difficult processing, or energy intensive processing, especially wrt other equivelent sources. if you don't want to compost it, pyrolise it. Or straight out burn it to make steam - water gas, electricity, as energy source for distilling, etc. etc. My point really is that teh optimal use for a given matter stream will depend on a number of factors and (self imposed - e.g. not wanting to use dinofuels) limitations. If cost effectiveness is your aim, (and your definition of cost may vary :-) ) then the choice of what you use a given feed strock for will (er... should?) be based on the best return for your effort. Given two feedstocks, WVO and dumster trash with WVO all though it, I would make the WVO into diesel and use the trash either as compost, methane digestion, fermentation, or low grade fuel to make steam etc. to refine the diesel/ distil (m)ethanol. -- Dr Paul van den Bergen Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures caia.swin.edu.au [EMAIL PROTECTED] IM:bulwynkl2002 It's a book. Non-volatile storage media. Everyone should have one. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Master Puzzler for Biofuelers...
On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 03:16 pm, bratt wrote: Have you considered making up a centrifuge to spin the mass and get the oil out? Some of the apple growers have adapted Scharf spin dryers and even washing machines for use as a centrifuge in cider production. Hey! you've been litstening to my brain waves again haven't you? :-) my father used to keep bees. I think the honey extractor is still floating around. anyhoo, it should be possible to build one using a 44 gallon drum, bicycle gear and a couple of bearings. the other approach would be to use a cyclonic seperation process this is a little out of my experience though... must catch up with my biomass fixated mech engineering friend :-) -- Dr Paul van den Bergen Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures caia.swin.edu.au [EMAIL PROTECTED] IM:bulwynkl2002 It's a book. Non-volatile storage media. Everyone should have one. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hot water tank
If I am not mistaken, the glass lined statement was another advertising agency con-job. Glass lined was referring to the thin layer of fiberglass insulation wrapped around a steel tank. They never ever said glass lined tank, although most customers were missled to believe that was what was glass lined. EdB - Original Message - From: robert luis rabello To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 10:16 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hot water tank Keith Addison wrote: No, memory succesfully jogged, thankyou. That's Dale's touchless processor, I forgot it was a water heater tank, and didn't at all connect it with the glass-lined tank Robert found - would Dale's tank be glass-lined? Anyway, it's here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html#touchfree Alack! The tank is NOT glass lined--its plain steel. I took the whole device apart this afternoon and will have to thoroughly wash the thing to rid it of accumulated rust and its rather nasty chlorine smell. It has threaded provisions for a lower inlet and an upper outlet, some kind of clean out on the top that is too tough for me to remove, and of course, a standard 1 500 watt electric heating element. It holds 12 Imperial gallons, whatever those are, and would probably make for an easy ethanol still conversion. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Sasol - was [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS
You won't really want to hear one idiots idea that was proposed to release the shale oil -- using small nuclear bombs. On the topic of underground fires, we have one in the Canadian maritimes that was burning begore the arrival of Columbus. It appeared in the writings that are used to verify the Saint Claire voyage of discovery from the Orkney Islands about 1200AD. EdB - Original Message - From: paul van den bergen To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 8:24 PM Subject: Re: Sasol - was [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS On Fri, 21 Mar 2003 05:14 pm, Keith Addison wrote: --- We have in Canada, a massive store of petroleum in the Athabasca Tar Sands. Estimates are that it is 400 times (or was it 4,000) times the known regular world oil reserves. It is oil soaked shale, costly to extract. there are so many things wrong with shale oil... a while ago I was looking at various patents (the co i was working for had a neat idea as to how to process this stuff... thank god they went belly up). basically, I found a really scary patent. to extract oil from coal and/or shale oil, you have to heat it up (Pyrolise it in low O2 atm.). this does 2 things, it vapourises teh volitile fraction and breaks (cracks) the non-volitile into liquid or gaseous fractions. One patent involved rubblising the shale oil insitu (e.g. underground) then setting fire to it and collecting the liquids and gasses driven off. Now in most places in the world, underground fires are avoided... anyone see the series of articles in NS recently talking about the bushfires in indonesia being ignited by coal seam fires? -- Dr Paul van den Bergen Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures caia.swin.edu.au [EMAIL PROTECTED] IM:bulwynkl2002 It's a book. Non-volatile storage media. Everyone should have one. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Master Puzzler for Biofuelers...
A piece of sched 80 steel pipe could handle the force You probably couldn't get one big enough to hold 25 gallons though. Appal Energy wrote: Yahh..., Something along those lines. But it would have to be a vertical log splitter. Still have to design a screen basket that won't split under the pressure. I suppose I could go to the museum and ask if I can rent one of Guttenberg's first screw presses. After all, he's not using it anymore. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Donald Strong [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 4:42 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Master Puzzler for Biofuelers... OIL PRESS Todd: How about modifying one of the common log splitters ? ( think potato ricer on the end of the ram). Don Strong, proud tennis-ball machine Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- --- Martin Klingensmith http://nnytech.net/ http://infoarchive.net/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Master Puzzler for Biofuelers...
On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 08:42 am, Donald Strong wrote: OIL PRESS Todd: How about modifying one of the common log splitters ? ( think potato ricer on the end of the ram). Don Strong, proud tennis-ball machine there was a list in Joshua Tickells book From the fryer to the fuel tank... I will see if I can remember to bring the book allong and transcribe the URLs... -- Dr Paul van den Bergen Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures caia.swin.edu.au [EMAIL PROTECTED] IM:bulwynkl2002 It's a book. Non-volatile storage media. Everyone should have one. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Master Puzzler for Biofuelers...
On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 08:42 am, Donald Strong wrote: OIL PRESS Todd: How about modifying one of the common log splitters ? ( think potato ricer on the end of the ram). Don Strong, proud tennis-ball machine [he's found his niche! LOL!] there was a list in Joshua Tickells book From the fryer to the fuel tank... I will see if I can remember to bring the book allong and transcribe the URLs... Oilseed presses http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_supply.html#Oilpress ApproTec's Mafuti Mali (Oil Wealth) press is a manual press for small-scale local production. The Hela Mk II is a high-performance manual press for extracting cold-pressed oil from sunflower and other seeds. The extraction efficiency is considered better than any other manual press -- about 12 kg of sunflower seed per hour. Easy to use, tough and durable, but not cheap -- US$265 in Tanzania. Contact Hugh C. Allen, [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.approtec.org/tech_oil.shtml The Sundhara oil expeller, designed in Germany for use in Nepal, now made in Nepal and Zimbabwe -- 60-70kg/hr (about 15 litres of oil). At the Jatropha Website: http://www.jatropha.org/expellers/sundhara-1.htm The Jatropha System -- many oilseed presses detailed here, see Oil extraction: http://www.jatropha.org/ Small-scale electric screw presses to press oil from seeds from Tbypressen in Sweden. http://www.oilpress.com KOMET Vegetable Oil Expeller, IBG Monforts in Germany -- range covers small hand-operated as well as powered machines. Virtually all oil-bearing seeds, nuts, and kernels can be pressed with the standard equipment without cumbersome adjusting of screws and oil outlet holes. The vegetable oil produced generally needs no refining, bleaching, or deodorizing. Big nuts, kernels, and copra (dried coconut meat) have to be crushed to the particle size of peas on the KOMET Cutting Machine System CRUSHER. IBG Monforts: http://www.oekotec.ibg-monforts.de/ Neoteric Biofuels Inc. in British Columbia, Canada: http://www.biofuels.ca/ India's United Oil Mill Machinery Spares Pvt. Ltd manufactures and exports an entire range of machinery and equipment for small, medium and large capacity oil mills for seed preparation, oil expelling, filtration and refining. Oil expellers for extraction of oil from any oil-bearing seed, capacities from 1 ton to 150 tons per day (24 hours); other machinery/equipment with matching capacities. * Tiger Mk I Oil Expeller, all steel construction, fitted with steel gears and pinions, fitted with steam heating kettle with electricals, capacity 2 tons per day (24 hours). US$7,500-00 * Tiger Mk II Oil Expeller, all steel construction, fitted with steel gears and pinions, fitted with steam heating kettle with electricals, capacity 3-4 tons per day (24 hours). US$9,500-00 * Exceoil Mk 2 Automatic Oil Expeller, all steel construction with double reduction helical gear box with steam kettle complete with electricals, capacity 8-10 tons per day (24 hours). US$15,000-00 Prices F.O.B. Indian port. Also manufactures the Wolf baby oil expeller with a capacity of 1 ton per day , caste-iron construction. Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.umas-india.com Dong Kwang Oil Machine Co., South Korea -- automatic edible oil presses, from 10kg/hr up. For sesame seed, sunflower, palm kernel, cacao, coconut (copra), olive, castor, cotton seed, maize (germ), rice bran, almond (germ), apricot (germ), soya bean, Chinese tung (germ), walnut, peanut, linseed, rape seed, perilla seed, mustard, etc. http://www.dongkwang.co.kr/en_menu/main.html Tinytech Plants -- Tiny Oil Mill, oil expeller with cooking kettle, Groundnut Decorticator, Sunflower Cracker or Palm Nut Cracker, Copra Cutter, made in Rajkot, India. Contact: E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.tinytechindia.com/oil.htm Build your own press: Now Build This -- The Sunflower Seed Huller And Oil Press -- a small press you can build yourself, powered by a hydraulic bottlejack (and your arm): three gallons of oil from a couple of thousand square feet of plants. http://ww2.green-trust.org:8383/2000/biofuel/sunfloweroil.htm Understanding Pressure Extraction of Vegetable Oils by James Casten and Dr Harry E. Snyder, 1985, Understanding Technology Series, Technical Paper #40, VITA (Volunteers In Technical Assistance), ISBN 0-86619-252-2 Small-scale oil extraction methods for village industry -- 4,000 word online paper. http://idh.vita.org/pubs/docs/upe.html VITA Understanding Technology Series: http://www.vita.org/publications/undrtech/index.htm Small-scale Oilseed Processing by Janet Bachmann, NCAT Agriculture Specialist, Appropriate Technology Transfer for Rural Areas (ATTRA) -- Basic processes involved in small-scale oilseed processing, includes a low-tech method for raw material preparation using sunflower seeds as an example; information on methods and equipment used for oil extraction; notes on clarification, packaging, and storage. Sources for additional
Re: [biofuel] Hot water tank
Hi Todd Hey Keith, No, memory succesfully jogged, thankyou. That's Dale's touchless processor, I forgot it was a water heater tank, and didn't at all connect it with the glass-lined tank Robert found - would Dale's tank be glass-lined? Chances are more than good. It's one of the two norms - glass lined and not :-) Thankyou, and to EdB. Dale would probably know by now if his wasn't. It's been around for a couple of years, yes? Yes, Jan 2001. A sporadic poster is Dale, more's the pity. Todd Anyway, it's here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html#touchfree Dale's message to the list about it is here: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=2021list=BIOFUEL Best Keith Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 4:07 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Impact of Energy Price Rise snip As for the hot water tank, I believe that JTF had an example of just that at one time or another. Did we? It doesn't ring a bell - can you jog my memory a bit? Keith Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 2:55 PM Subject: [biofuel] Impact of Energy Price Rise snip By the way, I found a discarded electric water heater with a glass lined tank that looks like it's in good shape. I'm tempted to tear it apart and see what might be salvageable. Has anyone used such a thing for biodiesel production? robert luis rabello Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
