date:20050822





Warning many people who are not experienced working with HV have killed
themselves poking around in a microwave oven. Also the neon
transformers may be able to produce several kilovolts but the patent
refers to currents of 500mA or more and voltages that range from 800V
to several kV. At an assumed voltage of 2kV and current of 500 mA we
are talking about a 1 kW power supply here. This is serious power and
quite lethal. There is much talk about 4 joules being about the right
amount of energy to kill someone and a 1kW HV supply can deliver this
much energy in 4 msec! Very few people have a reaction time much less
than 20 msec and to make matters worse DC causes muscles to contract
and stay contracted so you can't let go. AC at least gives you 60
chances to let go every second! The bottom line here is don't fool
around with this unless you know what you are doing. 
The comment about the high power input to the process is also correct
but the patent claims reaction times in the tens of milliseconds and
linear flow rates are quite high so the power is not on for a long
time. Energy is power times time so a 1kw load running for 5 minutes
is using 0.083 Kwh of energy. I currently pay an average rate of 5
cents per kilowatt hour so doing the math it would cost a whopping
total of less than half a penny. To run the reactor for an hour would
cost me 5 cents in electricity charges. Also the comment below about
'simple' high voltage diodes might sound misleading to anyone who is
not in the know. Designing HV stacks is not a trivial undertaking.
Schottky rectifier diodes do not have a suitable recovery
characteristic to be used without somewhat complicated compensating
networks and are far more likely to be the type found by the casual
electronics tinkerer at the local electronics supply. Surplus HV power
supplies are available at bargain prices occasionaly. Often these are
tube type rectifier units which require cooling water and good
grounding, i.e. a couple of copper rods driven into the earth within a
short distance of the unit. Expect to pay at least a kilobuck for one
of these. High frequency switching units are much better and do not
drive nearly as much current into the ground when they arc out but
won't be surplus equipment and expect to pay tens of kilobucks for one
of these babies, but might be a good investment for a coop wanting to
make lots of fuel in a hurry if this idea turns out to be viable.
I'm going to see what I can come up with to verify the claim and report
back to the list.

Joe

des wrote:

  Rumen Slavov wrote:

  
  
  Dear Friends,
 As an electrician I wold propose to use a HV
 



  transformer for neon lighting /you can see a lot of
   

  

it
 



  over allmost any restorant entrance/ and a simple HV
diodes to make HV into DC. The transformer supply
   

  

3000
 



  to 5000 volts.To avoid forming an ark,the electrodes
   

  

must be kept apart in a distance of 3-4 cm. 
 



  Have luck!
Ross Milan
   

  

  
  Or similarly, an oil burner (furnace) ignition transformer...  I think 
both of these are also available as switched mode power supplies, which 
don't spin your electric meter quite as quickly.  Generally, the neon 
sign trafo is going to have a higher voltage, and both rate their 
currents in milliamps.  Microwave oven high voltage transformers also 
could be used, they aren't usually potted (tar or epoxy filled), and 
could be rewound to provide the voltage you need.  They (IIRC) aren't 
current limited, and therefore are more lethal...

doug swanson



  



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[Biofuel] Using plastic pails

2005-08-22 Thread Jeffrey Tan


Dear all,
  A quick queston.  Is it okay to use plastic pails I find around my house 
to built the reactor tank, and other tanks for the biodiesel process instead 
of stainless steel?  It is some much cheaper and easier to work with 
plastics.  Will there be unforseen problems with this?  Thanks guys.


Jeff

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[Biofuel] Separation

2005-08-22 Thread DCBooth




I've done a couple batches of WVO. One 11 ltr 
and another 8 ltr.
Both with 6.5 gramsmethoxide 
mix.
Both batches settled completely within about 1 hour 
with no more settling 
even though I let them settle for over 12 
hours.
I've read that it takesabout at least 12hrs 
to get complete separation.
Am I doing something wrong or am I going 
overboard.
I've got a marked 100ml flask and both times I'm 
getting about 12ml of glyserol.

Dave
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Re: [Biofuel] [Fwd: Economist make sense (except for Krugman)]





Hi Robert and all,

At what price will demand for oil fall, say in China or the U.S. ? Is there an economist out there currently making millions in the futures market that knows that answer? Does $60-$70 per barrel of oil contain the environmental cost of obtaining and utilizing that oil? It is mid winter here and my early spring jazmine bush is already full blooming and my raspberries are starting to bud. Basically my backyard garden is telling me something that is obviously beyond the mere current cost of a barrel of oil.

Tom Irwin


From: robert luis rabello [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 19:55:57 -0300Subject: [Biofuel] [Fwd: Economist make sense (except for Krugman)]My sister, the stockbroker, sent this message to me. I thought I'd post it here for comment.Sunday, August 21, 2005"Peak Oil:" Welcome to the media's new version of shark attacksThe cover storyof the New YorkTimes Sunday Magazine written by Peter Maass is about "Peak Oil." Theidea behind "peak oil" is that the world has been on a path ofincreasing oil production for many years, and now we are about to peakand go into a situation where there are dwindling reserves, leading totriple-digit prices for a barrel of oil, an unparalleled worldwidedepression, and as one web pageputs it, "Civilization as we knowit is coming to an end soon."One might think that doomsday proponents would be chastened by the longhistory of people of their ilk being wrong: Nostradamus, Malthus, PaulEhrlich, etc. Clearly they are not.What most of these doomsday scenarios have gotten wrong is thefundamental idea of economics: people respond to incentives. If theprice of a good goes up, people demand less of it, the companies thatmake it figure out how to make more of it, and everyone tries to figureout how to produce substitutes for it. Add to that the march oftechnological innovation (like the green revolution, birth control,etc.). The end result: markets figure out how to deal with problems ofsupply and demand.Which is exactly the situation with oil right now. I don't know muchabout world oil reserves. I'm not even necessarily arguing with theirfacts about how much the output from existing oil fields is going todecline, or that world demand for oil is increasing. But these changesin supply and demand are slow and gradual -- a few percent each year.Markets have a way with dealing with situations like this: prices rise alittle bit. That is not a catastrophe, it is a message that some thingsthat used to be worth doing at low oil prices are no longer worth doing.Some people will switch from SUVs to hybrids, for instance. Maybe we'llbe willing to build some nuclear power plants, or it will become worthit to put solar panels on more houses.The NY Times article totally flubs the economics time and again. Here isone example from the article: The author writes:The consequences of an actual shortfall of supply would be immense. Ifconsumption begins to exceed production by even a small amount, theprice of a barrel of oil could soar to triple-digit levels. This, inturn, could bring on a global recession, a result of exorbitant pricesfor transport fuels and for products that rely on petrochemicals --which is to say, almost every product on the market. The impact on theAmerican way of life would be profound: cars cannot be propelled byroof-borne windmills. The suburban and exurban lifestyles, hinged totwo-car families and constant trips to work, school and Wal-Mart, mightbecome unaffordable or, if gas rationing is imposed, impossible.Carpools would be the least imposing of many inconveniences; the cost ofhome heating would soar -- assuming, of course, that climate-controlledhabitats do not become just a fond memory.If oil prices rise, consumers of oil will be (a little) worse off. But,we are talking about needing to cut demand by a few percent a year. Thatdoesn't mean putting windmills on cars, it means cutting out a few lowvalue trips. It doesn't mean abandoning North Dakota, it means keepingthe thermostat a degree or two cooler in the winter.A little later, the author writesThe onset of triple-digit prices might seem a blessing for the Saudis --they would receive greater amounts of money for their increasinglyscarce oil. But one popular misunderstanding about the Saudis -- andabout OPEC in general -- is that high prices, no matter how high, are totheir benefit.Although oil costing more than $60 a barrel hasn't caused a globalrecession, that could still happen: it can take a while for high pricesto have their ruinous impact. And the higher above $60 that prices rise,the more likely a recession will become. High oil prices areinflationary; they raise the cost of virtually everything -- fromgasoline to jet fuel to plastics and fertilizers -- and that meanspeople buy less and travel less, which means a drop-off in economicactivity. So after a brief windfall for producers, oil prices wouldslide as recession sets in and

Re: [Biofuel] [Fwd: Economist make sense (except for Krugman)]

2005-08-22 Thread robert luis rabello

Tom Irwin wrote:

 Hi Robert and all,
  
 At what price will demand for oil fall, say in China or the U.S. ? Is 
 there an economist out there currently making millions in the futures 
 market that knows that answer? Does $60-$70 per barrel of oil contain 
 the environmental cost of obtaining and utilizing that oil? It is mid 
 winter here and my early spring jazmine bush is already full blooming 
 and my raspberries are starting to bud. Basically my backyard garden is 
 telling me something that is obviously beyond the mere current cost of a 
 barrel of oil.
  
 Tom Irwin

My sister suffers from a common delusion in North America:  Nothing 
is wrong.  Everything will go on the way it always has.  Don't concern 
yourself with issues raised by the lunatic fringe of the environmental 
movement.

I remember what hyperinflation was like in Brasil, where the money 
spent on a refrigerator one month would barely serve to buy a six pack 
of beer for it the next.  I can imagine wealth painstakingly built 
over a lifetime disappearing like a morning mist.  It's quite possible 
that economic problems will force a fundamental change in societal 
structure which some (mostly rich people like my eldest sister) will 
weather without grave difficulty.

While markets may adjust, there WILL be a human cost, particularly if 
energy prices rise rapidly.  We should have had an energy policy 
decades ago, and I believe we will pay for our procrastination.  It 
doesn't do a family who is mortgaged up to the hilt and paying better 
than $500 per month on their V 8 powered machine any good to consider 
a hybrid, if their SUV is worth less than what they owe.  The 
efficiency improvements mandated by increasing scarcity require 
capital investment that simply will not be available to most people 
whose financial situations conform to the consumerist paradigm.

The fundamental problem of remaining oil reserves requiring more and 
more energy to extract is totally LOST on most people.  This will 
create a scramble for easily recoverable resources likely involving 
yet another round of bombs, bullets and death.  My country is on a 
collision course with China, and thus far, because our leaders are 
listening to nonsensical market prognosticators who visualize an 
endless rise in GDP, they've done NOTHING serious to reduce our 
energy-related gluttony.

Someone in this forum wrote that the U.S. will never use its nuclear 
weapons.  I don't see how we could take on China without them, yet if 
we do so, we will drag the rest of the world down with us.  It's a 
path we needn't follow, and that's why the dialogue in this forum is 
so critical.

As for the weather, we've endured several weeks of temperatures 
approaching 40 degrees.  My grass is brown and dotted with Keith's 
beloved deep rooting herbs.  Trees are already losing their leaves. 
  However, our vegetable garden is bursting with produce.  We've NEVER 
had such an abundant harvest, and for the first time EVER, I'm growing 
maize that's taller than I am!  (We have a sunflower that is well over 
3 meters in height, too!)  There has been no snow left on the local 
mountains (except for Mount Baker, which rises some 3 400 meters above 
sea level) for months now.  This year's salmon run is pathetic!

Yet most people remain unconcerned.  They're reading and believing 
articles like Economist make sense.

Meanwhile, I'm making compost, walking instead of driving, and 
harvesting food from my own property.

robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] Using plastic pails





Hi Jeffrey,

Short term there may not bea problem. Long term (3-12 months) BioD because it is an ester will soften (dissolve) most plastics and make them unusable.

Tom Irwin


From: Jeffrey Tan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:06:31 -0300Subject: [Biofuel] Using plastic pailsDear all,A quick queston. Is it okay to use plastic pails I find around my house to built the reactor tank, and other tanks for the biodiesel process instead of stainless steel? It is some much cheaper and easier to work with plastics. Will there be unforseen problems with this? Thanks guys.Jeff_Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963



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Re: [Biofuel] Cornell on ethanol, biodiesel, hydrogen energy efficiencies





Ello Andy,

It's good to know you Aussies haven't been infected with the politically correct disease. Hopefully you are all completely immune.

Still smilin,

Tom Irwin



From: Andrew Lowe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 10:43:24 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Cornell on ethanol, biodiesel,  hydrogen energy efficienciesBob,Due to work pressure it's taken a while for me to catch up on this thread - a pity really as if I had known that commenting on a blokes lack of dress sense would have fired up a good debate, I would have been in there a lot earlier. Anyway, Bob, you need to take a long deep breath and count to 10. You have read so much into my comments that are just not true and a total distortion of reality that thatOh I don't know, words fail meI think a major problem is that you're a Yank and I'm an Australian. Just as you can't spell colour, humour, honour, aluminium etc, correctly our national senses of humour are different. In Australia we poke fun, "take the piss", "hang sh*t" etc etc. Yes it may be ridicule but it is a national pastime here in Australia. Hold yourself up as THE WORD on a subject and someone will soon bring you back down to Earth. This is what I was doing - poking fun at Pimentel. If it had been Keith dressed like that with a similar _expression_ on his face pumping biodiesel, I would have probably come up with a similar comment - the clothes and the look just screamed out "mock me".As to the "blatant slander" comment, Bob please, get your hand off it. Look at the context of the comment, mixed in with a reference to The Goodies and the Russian Politburo. If you took that as slander then I feel for your lack of training in comedy/humour.By the way, Bob, I do understand the scientific process, being an Engineer and having had training in Chemistry and Physics. The problem you see is that Pimentel has made these comments before and every time has been shot down in flames as being so far off the mark and just down right wrong. He is like the boy who cries wolf. He has cried wolf so many times that people don't believe him, and unlike the fairy tale/fable, there really is no wolf, just bad scientific analysis and bad conclusions.In closing, may I just say that in the future, if you are a badly dressed wind bag with bad posture, who has been shown to sprout dodgy figures to drive some hidden agenda, then I will make every attempt to show you to be the drongo that you are.Regards in mindless ramblings,AndrewWilliam Adams wrote: Andrew,  I know you said it in jest, but the unfortunate effect of your sarcasm  regarding David Pimentel, one of the nations' outstanding scientists, is  to support the ignorant critics of good science who argue that, "if I  believe in a proposition, then anyone who presents evidence that  contradicts my belief is a malicious fool and not to be believed".  It is true that a few pseudoscientists acting as industry shills will  (for a fee) produce a "scientific study" supporting any industry-desired  conclusion, but your implication that Pimentel is such an Exxon shill is  blatant slander, and I am ashamed to see it on the Biofuels site.  I assume that you wish ethanol's EROEI (energy return over energy input)  to be positive, thus making it a useful energy source as we approach the  end of fossil fuels. So do I - and so would lots of other folks. I'm  sure also that David Pimentel shares that wish. The difference between  you and Pimentel is that as a scientist, he says, "It's a great idea and  I hope it's true, but what if it isn't? So let's run the numbers and  seek the truth of the matter. If it turns out the EROEI is negative, we  would be commiting a cruel and expensive hoax on the nation to propose  ethanol as an energy solution."  I am as disappointed as you must be in his analysis showing a negative  EROEI. And I look forward to additional valid studies testing and  challenging his conclusion. But to lampoon his work because you don't  like the color of - was it his socks? - is not a worthy act on your  part. I'm sure you can do better. I hope you will.  In all sincerity and hoping that your future jests will be more benign,  Bob A. - Original Message - From: "Andrew Lowe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To:  Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 4:15 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Cornell on ethanol, biodiesel, hydrogen energy  efficiencies   Michael wrote:  This press release below produced the AP story that follows it. July 5, 2005 Cornell ecologist's study finds that producing ethanol and biodiesel  from corn and other crops is not worth the energy By Susan S. Lang Chris Hallman/University Photography Ecologist David Pimentel, shown here pumping gas, says that his  analysis shows that producing ethanol uses more energy than the  resulting fuel generates. Copyright © Cornell University [snip]  Sorry for the late reply on this one, but with dress sense like what was shown in the

[Biofuel] Improving Peer Review

2005-08-22 Thread John Hayes

http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v8/n4/pdf/nn0405-397.pdf

jh



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Re: [Biofuel] [Fwd: Economist make sense (except for Krugman)]





Hi Robert,

Continue to lead by example. Others will follow. Hopefully water will not become a problem for you in the future, neither too little or too much. I'm looking into the cost of a cistern. I cannot be certain which way Uruguay's climate will change. It could go to a wetter grassland (good) or a drier one (liveable but not so good). When you cannot trust money you trust land (hence the term "real" estate).

Tom Irwin



From: robert luis rabello [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:14:18 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [Fwd: Economist make sense (except for Krugman)]Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Robert and all,  At what price will demand for oil fall, say in China or the U.S. ? Is  there an economist out there currently making millions in the futures  market that knows that answer? Does $60-$70 per barrel of oil contain  the environmental cost of obtaining and utilizing that oil? It is mid  winter here and my early spring jazmine bush is already full blooming  and my raspberries are starting to bud. Basically my backyard garden is  telling me something that is obviously beyond the mere current cost of a  barrel of oil.  Tom IrwinMy sister suffers from a common delusion in North America: "Nothing is wrong. Everything will go on the way it always has. Don't concern yourself with issues raised by the lunatic fringe of the environmental movement."I remember what hyperinflation was like in Brasil, where the money spent on a refrigerator one month would barely serve to buy a six pack of beer for it the next. I can imagine wealth painstakingly built over a lifetime disappearing like a morning mist. It's quite possible that economic problems will force a fundamental change in societal structure which some (mostly rich people like my eldest sister) will weather without grave difficulty.While markets may adjust, there WILL be a human cost, particularly if energy prices rise rapidly. We should have had an energy policy decades ago, and I believe we will pay for our procrastination. It doesn't do a family who is mortgaged up to the hilt and paying better than $500 per month on their V 8 powered machine any good to consider a hybrid, if their SUV is worth less than what they owe. The efficiency improvements "mandated" by increasing scarcity require capital investment that simply will not be available to most people whose financial situations conform to the consumerist paradigm.The fundamental problem of remaining oil reserves requiring more and more energy to extract is totally LOST on most people. This will create a scramble for easily recoverable resources likely involving yet another round of bombs, bullets and death. My country is on a collision course with China, and thus far, because our leaders are listening to nonsensical market prognosticators who visualize an endless rise in GDP, they've done NOTHING serious to reduce our energy-related gluttony.Someone in this forum wrote that the U.S. will never use its nuclear weapons. I don't see how we could take on China without them, yet if we do so, we will drag the rest of the world down with us. It's a path we needn't follow, and that's why the dialogue in this forum is so critical.As for the weather, we've endured several weeks of temperatures approaching 40 degrees. My grass is brown and dotted with Keith's beloved "deep rooting herbs". Trees are already losing their leaves. However, our vegetable garden is bursting with produce. We've NEVER had such an abundant harvest, and for the first time EVER, I'm growing maize that's taller than I am! (We have a sunflower that is well over 3 meters in height, too!) There has been no snow left on the local mountains (except for Mount Baker, which rises some 3 400 meters above sea level) for months now. This year's salmon run is pathetic!Yet most people remain unconcerned. They're reading and believing articles like "Economist make sense".Meanwhile, I'm making compost, walking instead of driving, and harvesting food from my own property.robert luis rabello"The Edge of Justice"Adventure for Your Mindhttp://www.newadventure.caRanger Supercharger Project Pagehttp://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



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Re: [Biofuel] [Fwd: Economist make sense (except for Krugman)]





Hi Robert et al;

The guy who made the comment about nukes was me. I am in total
agreement with you about the impending economic restructuring. That's
a nice euphemism isn't it? What it really means though if you sit down
and think about it is just as you said. Rising energy costs and the
secondary effects of that will force a tremendous change on our
wasteful style of living. After it is all over and the new stable
system has settled down things will look very different. During the
transition people who are currently in denial will be forced into a
brutal reality therapy. And there will be a war. What happens during
this time will surely be chaotic because those with thier heads in the
sand right now will not accept change willingly, but as for the nuclear
arsenal I think its real value is in the deterent aspect. That was why
I used the grenade inside a closed room analogy. Even if things get
really bad economically and the house of cards comes down, I like to
believe that although people can be selfish, greedy,
arrogant(insert your favorite insult here) all of those self
serving iterests also serve NOT letting off one of those firecrackers.
They are only for show. (I hope). 
Your comments on hyperinflation are well founded and well taken. I
have been considering the investment in a photovoltaic system and have
started to consider that although the cost is almost prohibitive at
this time just imagine what the asking price for alternatives will
become when the restructuring hits! It may be that the window of
opportunity for that type of investment is about to close (for the
average joe). And the question of worth begins to take a radical turn
as you pointed out. What will become the new controlling economy once
oil and its derivatives are out of reach? Consider what results when
massive unemployment collides with massive debt. Those SUV's that
people cannot unload, will they get reposessed? Along with the 2500 sq
ft houses that are suddenly unaffordable? And if so who are the banks
going to sell them to? Your eldest sister may be able to hang on for
longer than most but unless she invests in a strategy that gives her
some degree of independance it will run out at some point. If the
economy could be restarted she may weather it, but suppose the house of
cards cannot be rebuit because it has been sitting on a foundation of
cheap energy which no longer exists and will never return? She will be
the latecomer to this list. 

Enough doom and gloom already.
Joe

robert luis rabello wrote:

  Tom Irwin wrote:

  
  
Hi Robert and all,
 
At what price will demand for oil fall, say in China or the U.S. ? Is 
there an economist out there currently making millions in the futures 
market that knows that answer? Does $60-$70 per barrel of oil contain 
the environmental cost of obtaining and utilizing that oil? It is mid 
winter here and my early spring jazmine bush is already full blooming 
and my raspberries are starting to bud. Basically my backyard garden is 
telling me something that is obviously beyond the mere current cost of a 
barrel of oil.
 
Tom Irwin

  
  
	My sister suffers from a common delusion in North America:  "Nothing 
is wrong.  Everything will go on the way it always has.  Don't concern 
yourself with issues raised by the lunatic fringe of the environmental 
movement."

	I remember what hyperinflation was like in Brasil, where the money 
spent on a refrigerator one month would barely serve to buy a six pack 
of beer for it the next.  I can imagine wealth painstakingly built 
over a lifetime disappearing like a morning mist.  It's quite possible 
that economic problems will force a fundamental change in societal 
structure which some (mostly rich people like my eldest sister) will 
weather without grave difficulty.

	While markets may adjust, there WILL be a human cost, particularly if 
energy prices rise rapidly.  We should have had an energy policy 
decades ago, and I believe we will pay for our procrastination.  It 
doesn't do a family who is mortgaged up to the hilt and paying better 
than $500 per month on their V 8 powered machine any good to consider 
a hybrid, if their SUV is worth less than what they owe.  The 
efficiency improvements "mandated" by increasing scarcity require 
capital investment that simply will not be available to most people 
whose financial situations conform to the consumerist paradigm.

	The fundamental problem of remaining oil reserves requiring more and 
more energy to extract is totally LOST on most people.  This will 
create a scramble for easily recoverable resources likely involving 
yet another round of bombs, bullets and death.  My country is on a 
collision course with China, and thus far, because our leaders are 
listening to nonsensical market prognosticators who visualize an 
endless rise in GDP, they've done NOTHING serious to reduce our 
energy-related gluttony.

	Someone in this forum wrote that the U.S. will never use its nuclear

Re: [Biofuel] [Fwd: Economist make sense (except for Krugman)]

2005-08-22 Thread robert luis rabello

Joe Street wrote:

 Hi Robert et al;
 Rising energy costs and the 
 secondary effects of that will force a tremendous change on our wasteful 
 style of living.  After it is all over and the new stable system has 
 settled down things will look very different.  During the transition 
 people who are currently in denial will be forced into a brutal reality 
 therapy.

I watched A Band of Brothers recently and am reminded of a scene in 
which an American Airborne officer enters a German house with the 
intent of looting.  He sees the framed photograph of a Nazi officer, 
which he drops on the floor and proceeds to grind with the heel of his 
boot.  In walks the well dressed, well fed, matronly woman of the 
house, replete with a haughty expression.  She stares the officer down 
and he leaves.

In the next scene, this same officer walks into a local work camp 
housing many men who are near death from starvation.  The American 
commander has recruited assistance from the nearby village in 
collecting and burying the dead, people who have denied any knowledge 
of the camp.  (My saintly mother in law, who lived in Germany during 
the war, also tells me she and her family knew nothing of the 
atrocities going on around them.  But she, a Sabbatarian, was beaten 
for not attending school on Saturday.  She has no love or sympathy for 
Nazis.)  This Airborne officer walks into the camp and sees a woman 
struggling to loosen a corpse from the pile.  This woman is the same 
one he saw earlier, in her home, but now the haughty expression has 
been replaced by one of horror, as the reality of the situation beyond 
her comfortable existence overwhelms her consciousness.  (She uttered 
not a word in either scene, but the actress playing that role 
portrayed the change beautifully.)

Likewise, the social paradigm which we enjoy in North America (and 
maybe Europe, too) will come to an end.  All the denial in the world 
will not suffice to smooth the harsh reality of that day.  Part of me 
feels like those who engage in denial deserve the suffering they will 
endure, while another part grieves for the hardship my countrymen must 
face for the arrogance and lack of leadership overflowing from the 
Congress and Executive.  We have been well trained as consumers.  Many 
of us know no other way, and the generation that survived the Great 
Depression is dying off as we write.


  And there will be a war.

Indeed . . .  The roots of the new conflict originate in the ashes of 
WWII.

 What happens during this time will 
 surely be chaotic because those with thier heads in the sand right now 
 will not accept change willingly, but as for the nuclear arsenal I think 
 its real value is in the deterent aspect.  That was why I used the 
 grenade inside a closed room analogy.  Even if things get really bad 
 economically and the house of cards comes down, I like to believe that 
 although people can be selfish, greedy, arrogant(insert your 
 favorite insult here) all of those self serving iterests also serve 
 NOT letting off one of those firecrackers.  They are only for show. (I 
 hope). 

I would like to believe you, but I don't.  Nothing fundamental has 
changed in human nature since we first developed nuclear weapons. 
There are very powerful and influential people in the United States 
who believe that we have to fight and WIN (is that possible?) a 
nuclear conflict.  The proliferation of thermonuclear weapons around 
the world may serve as impetus for continuing the development of the 
next generation weapons.

We have used them in anger once.  I honestly believe we will use them 
again, especially if those in power feel threatened.  I would far 
prefer having a man in office who has actually seen combat and knows 
about suffering in battle, than the megalomaniac with limited capacity 
for understanding we have now.  Someone like our current president, 
who BELIEVES he is directing the nation according to God's will and 
has no compunction against inflicting suffering on other people, has 
already utilized the power of our military in a preemptive manner. 
Raise the stakes higher and I don't see any means of restraining him, 
nor the others who advocate force as a solution to our foreign policy 
problems.

 Your comments on hyperinflation are well founded and well taken.  I have 
 been considering the investment in a photovoltaic system and have 
 started to consider that although the cost is almost prohibitive at this 
 time just imagine what the asking price for alternatives will become 
 when the restructuring hits!

That's why we have to look into these things NOW.  I'm learning how 
to build an engine management computer that will enable me to program 
any internal combustion engine to run well on different fuels.  I'd 
really like to do ethanol, but I may end up using producer gas because 
the raw materials for gasification are abundant where I live, and 
doing

Re: [Biofuel] Using plastic pails

2005-08-22 Thread DB

If you need to do it on the cheap you can't beat 55gal steel drums.(I use 
two of them) Just cut the top completely off, install a valve at the bottom 
with parts from US plastic. They also have plastic drum covers to seal your 
reaction. http://www.usplastic.com
- Original Message - 
From: Jeffrey Tan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 4:06 AM
Subject: [Biofuel] Using plastic pails


 Dear all,
   A quick queston.  Is it okay to use plastic pails I find around my house
 to built the reactor tank, and other tanks for the biodiesel process 
 instead
 of stainless steel?  It is some much cheaper and easier to work with
 plastics.  Will there be unforseen problems with this?  Thanks guys.

 Jeff

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 messages):
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Re: [Biofuel] [Fwd: Economist make sense (except for Krugman)]

Joe,

"...but as for the nuclear arsenal I think its real value is in the deterent aspect."

With all due respect, you're really opening Pandora's box with that one.

Our nuclear arsenal doesn't make conclusions aboutweapons being offensive or defensive. There is no sense of scale norare there predetermined rules as to where or when they should be used.

There are two things you can count on when analyzing the behavior of any military entity, whether they be the modern American military orancient Romans:

When politicians recognize that they have a formidable army at their disposal, they will want to use it as a way of implementing policy (von Clausewitz).

The US government promises further development of battlefield nuclear weapons as they preach to others how potentially dangerous they are in the "wrong hands".

(IMO) there is nothing good about nuclear weapons andMAD (mutually assured destruction)has outlived it's usefulness (as if it ever was useful) and is nothing more than a cold war relic.

MikeJoe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Robert et al;The guy who made the comment about nukes was me. I am in total agreement with you about the impending economic restructuring. That's a nice euphemism isn't it? What it really means though if you sit down and think about it is just as you said. Rising energy costs and the secondary effects of that will force a tremendous change on our wasteful style of living. After it is all over and the new stable system has settled down things will look very different. During the transition people who are currently in denial will be forced into a brutal reality therapy. And there will be a war. What happens during this time will surely be chaotic because those with thier heads in the sand right now will not accept change willingly, but as for the nuclear arsenal I think its real value is in the deterent aspect. That was why I
used the grenade inside a closed room analogy. Even if things get really bad economically and the house of cards comes down, I like to believe that although people can be selfish, greedy, arrogant(insert your favorite insult here) all of those self serving iterests also serve NOT letting off one of those firecrackers. They are only for show. (I hope). Your comments on hyperinflation are well founded and well taken. I have been considering the investment in a photovoltaic system and have started to consider that although the cost is almost prohibitive at this time just imagine what the asking price for alternatives will become when the restructuring hits! It may be that the window of opportunity for that type of investment is about to close (for the average joe). And the question of worth begins to take a radical turn as you pointed out. What will become the new controlling economy once oil and its derivatives are out of reach?
Consider what results when massive unemployment collides with massive debt. Those SUV's that people cannot unload, will they get reposessed? Along with the 2500 sq ft houses that are suddenly unaffordable? And if so who are the banks going to sell them to? Your eldest sister may be able to hang on for longer than most but unless she invests in a strategy that gives her some degree of independance it will run out at some point. If the economy could be restarted she may weather it, but suppose the house of cards cannot be rebuit because it has been sitting on a foundation of cheap energy which no longer exists and will never return? She will be the latecomer to this list. Enough doom and gloom already.Joerobert luis rabello wrote:
Tom Irwin wrote:

Hi Robert and all,

At what price will demand for oil fall, say in China or the U.S. ? Is
there an economist out there currently making millions in the futures
market that knows that answer? Does $60-$70 per barrel of oil contain
the environmental cost of obtaining and utilizing that oil? It is mid
winter here and my early spring jazmine bush is already full blooming
and my raspberries are starting to bud. Basically my backyard garden is
telling me something that is obviously beyond the mere current cost of a
barrel of oil.

Tom Irwin

My sister suffers from a common delusion in North America: "Nothing
is wrong. Everything will go on the way it always has. Don't concern
yourself with issues raised by the lunatic fringe of the environmental
movement."

I remember what hyperinflation was like in Brasil, where the money
spent on a

Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

2005-08-22 Thread John I



Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 08:20:41 -0500From: Garth  Kim Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/CountryTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgMessage-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowedGreetings,If you can tell me how to educate people who do not want to learn, I will do so. I was extremely active in Literacy Volunteers of America for 12 years. I worked as a trainer in the Brazos Valley and I tried to run a literacy council in Bedias, where the illiterate rate is over 40%. We had free tutors available to anyone who wanted one, guess what? No students! The bank and the post office were telling people that free lessons were available, but still no students!We live our philosophy, in big letters and out front. We are trying very hard for a truly sustainable life and hope that as our place comes
 together, people will ask how we are accomplishing this, but you can not make people with no interest learn. We are slowly getting questions about the health of our animals and grass, but when we explain, they laugh and tell us that won't work. The evidence is in front of them, but we must be lying or something.I am on-line, and although I haven't had time lately, I do regular rants about sustainable living, especially about sustainable farming on this list. Look in the archives. I own and run 2 yahoo lists, both of around 400 people. One on sustainable building and one on renewable energy. Plus the 20 other lists that I am on and active, sharing what I know and have learned and learning from others. If that is not being out there trying to teach, I don't know what you want.Bright Blessings,KimHello all and Kim,
If the sustainable building list is open I would be interested in joining. Please send along more info.
Thanks,
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Re: [Biofuel] Propane Water Heating (was Lignin crop redidue breakdown)

2005-08-22 Thread Brian Rodgers





Thank
you for the
helpful feedback Darryl.
I followed your advice and read the archived
email and I am indeed intrigued with
the simple solar water pre-heater.

  Hmm, I know 
I've written something more detailed - let me know if you want me to dig for it.)  
  

I
need to learn how to better search the JTF archives anyway. But, thanks
for the
offer. This does give me direction

  We use a simple batch pre-heater from May to October (non-freezing season here) and 
it cuts our natural gas use almost to zero.  It is based on a surplus hot water 
tank and a patio door.


Our
freezing season
is not all that far off. In the high country of Northern
New Mexico it gets damn cold at night. Just the same I know
the
technology for creating closed loop systems using antifreeze and heat
exchangers. On top of that I already have the radiant floor plumbing
installed
and have been itching to get started on a multiple alternative energy systems for
heating the fluid. My first energy source will be wood heat since we
live in the forest, but I always had it
in the back of my mind to supplement the system with solar energy. 
Sincerely,
Brian Rodgers




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[Biofuel] lye

2005-08-22 Thread d4dallas

first can I use red devil lye that is used for drain cleaner is it pure lye, 
it is in granular form should i grind it?  also is denatured alcohol what 
you buy in wal-mart buy the quart ok to use for my test batches and 
training? 


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[Biofuel] Biofuels in Spanish at Journey to Forever

Greetings all

The following pages are now available in Spanish - thankyou Andrés!

Anyone who would like to help with the translation job, and/or might 
be interested in helping to run the Spanish mirror site, including 
the crucial job of adapting it to local conditions in the 
Spanish-speaking world, please contact me offlist.

http://journeytoforever.org/es/biocombustibles.html
Biocombustibles: Journey to Forever

http://journeytoforever.org/es/biodiesel_fabricar.html
Fabrica tu propio biodiesel: Journey to Forever

http://journeytoforever.org/es/biodiesel_fabricar2.html
Fabrica tu propio biodiesel - pýgina 2: Journey to Forever

http://journeytoforever.org/es/biodiesel_mike.html
Receta de Mike Pelly: Journey to Forever

http://journeytoforever.org/es/biodiesel_aleks.html
Proceso en dos etapas: Journey to Forever

http://journeytoforever.org/es/biodiesel_aleksnueva.html
Método ácido-base: Journey to Forever

http://journeytoforever.org/es/biodiesel_cav.html
Aceite vegetal usado como combustible diesel: Journey to Forever

http://journeytoforever.org/es/biodiesel_reactores.html
Reactores para biodiesel: Journey to Forever

http://journeytoforever.org/es/biodiesel_vehiculo.html
El biodiesel y tu vehículo: Journey to Forever

Best wishes

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
KYOTO Pref., Japan
http://journeytoforever.org/
Biofuel list owner

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Re: [Biofuel] Biofuels in Spanish at Journey to Forever

Further to this, I'm also much interested in any opinions on making 
the information at Journey to Forever more accessible to the 
Portuguese-speaking countries, especially Brazil. Is it possible 
short of creating another full mirror site in Portuguese? I believe 
there are some mailing lists which use both Spanish and Portuguese, 
and it seems to work, at least to some extent. Any ideas? Not that 
I'd object to a mirror site in Portuguese, not at all, if someone (or 
more than one) was prepared to take on the translation work and the 
maintenence.

Best wishes

Keith


Greetings all

The following pages are now available in Spanish - thankyou Andrés!

Anyone who would like to help with the translation job, and/or might 
be interested in helping to run the Spanish mirror site, including 
the crucial job of adapting it to local conditions in the 
Spanish-speaking world, please contact me offlist.

http://journeytoforever.org/es/biocombustibles.html
Biocombustibles: Journey to Forever

http://journeytoforever.org/es/biodiesel_fabricar.html
Fabrica tu propio biodiesel: Journey to Forever

http://journeytoforever.org/es/biodiesel_fabricar2.html
Fabrica tu propio biodiesel - pýgina 2: Journey to Forever

http://journeytoforever.org/es/biodiesel_mike.html
Receta de Mike Pelly: Journey to Forever

http://journeytoforever.org/es/biodiesel_aleks.html
Proceso en dos etapas: Journey to Forever

http://journeytoforever.org/es/biodiesel_aleksnueva.html
Método ácido-base: Journey to Forever

http://journeytoforever.org/es/biodiesel_cav.html
Aceite vegetal usado como combustible diesel: Journey to Forever

http://journeytoforever.org/es/biodiesel_reactores.html
Reactores para biodiesel: Journey to Forever

http://journeytoforever.org/es/biodiesel_vehiculo.html
El biodiesel y tu vehículo: Journey to Forever

Best wishes

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
KYOTO Pref., Japan
http://journeytoforever.org/
Biofuel list owner


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Re: [Biofuel] [Fwd: Economist make sense (except for Krugman)]





Hi Mike;

I've stuck a few comments interspersed with yours below;

Michael Redler wrote:

  
  
  
  
  Joe,
  
  "...but as for the nuclear arsenal I think its real value is in
the deterent aspect."
  
  With all due respect, you're really opening Pandora's box with
that one.
  
  
  
  

It has been open for 60 years and I didn't open it, we have the US
government to thank for that.

  
  
  
  
  
  Our nuclear arsenal doesn't make conclusions aboutweapons being
offensive or defensive. There is no sense of scale norare there
predetermined rules as to where or when they should be used.
  
  
  
  

There is a sense of scale though. Nukes operate on a scale that makes
the thin veil of atmosphere of our planet look a bit like a closed
bottle.

  
  
  
  
  
  There are two things you can count on when analyzing the
behavior of any military entity, whether they be the modern American
military orancient Romans:
  
  When politicians recognize that they have a formidable army at
their disposal, they will want to use it as a way of implementing
policy (von Clausewitz).
  
  Whenmilitary leaders have weapons at there disposal thathelps
them win wars, they will use them. They are not concerned with the
amount of destructionthey cause - only the objective. In fact, that's
the whole point isn't it?
  
  
  
  

What does it mean; "win"? Even a limited nuclear exchange (if it is
possible -which I doubt) would release sufficient crap into the
environment to be unhealthy to the so called victor.

  
  
  
  
  
  Asthe US government passes judgmenton other countries for
developing nuclear weapons, they are leaving behind battlefields in
Iraq with nuclear waste inthe form of airborne dust and hard shells of
glass-like, radioactive coatings on their former targets as a result of
using depleted uranium.
  
  
  
  

Yes and there is mounting evidence about just how nasty these clouds of
gaslike nanoscale uranium dust really are and the jury is still out on
what the long lasting effects are and just how far downwind they are
felt.

  
  
  
  
  
  The US government promises further development of battlefield
nuclear weapons as they preach to others how potentially dangerous they
are in the "wrong hands".
  
  (IMO) there is nothing good about nuclear weapons andMAD
(mutually assured destruction)has outlived it's usefulness (as if it
ever was useful) and is nothing more than a cold war relic.
  
  Mike
  
  
  
  
  
  

Yeah mutal assured destruction is yesterday's theme for sure 'cauze
human nature is more modern now than it was during the cold war. That's
why the end of the cold war was so stabilizing on the world. Threats
never outlive thier usefulness so long as the ugly side of human nature
continues to exist. Unless you want to turn the other cheek. We've
never seen a serious attempt to implement that strategy on a global
scale. Maybe that's a plan. Ok who should go first? Maybe we should
draw straws or something. No wait -maybe just when the s--t is about to
hit the fan god's hand will come down and squeeze the missle silos
between his thumb and index finger like little zits on the face of the
planet. And he'll probably level the playing field at the same time.
Then we'll be able to start from scratch and everyone will realise they
should play nice. Probably no one will want more than they need then.
And probably I will look like a movie star and all the women will want
me but I will stick with just one. I think it could happen.

J



  
  
  
  
  Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
  Hi
Robert et al;

The guy who made the comment about nukes was me. I am in total
agreement with you about the impending economic restructuring. That's
a nice euphemism isn't it? What it really means though if you sit down
and think about it is just as you said. Rising energy costs and the
secondary effects of that will force a tremendous change on our
wasteful style of living. After it is all over and the new stable
system has settled down things will look very different. During the
transition people who are currently in denial will be forced into a
brutal reality therapy. And there will be a war. What happens during
this time will surely be chaotic because those with thier heads in the
sand right now will not accept change willingly, but as for the nuclear
arsenal I think its real value is in the deterent aspect. That was why
I used the grenade inside a closed room analogy. Even if things get
really bad economically and the house of cards comes down, I like to
believe that although people can be selfish, greedy,
arrogant(insert your favorite insult here) all of those self
serving iterests also serve NOT letting off one of those firecrackers.
They are only for show. (I hope). 
Your comments on hyperinflation are well founded and well taken. I
have been considering the investment in a photovoltaic system and have
started to consider that although the cost is almost prohibitive at
this time just imagine what the

Re: [Biofuel] lye

How can you be on this list and still be shopping at WALMART!!!
Heaven help us.

Joe

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

first can I use red devil lye that is used for drain cleaner is it pure lye, 
it is in granular form should i grind it?  also is denatured alcohol what 
you buy in wal-mart buy the quart ok to use for my test batches and 
training? 


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Re: [Biofuel] Using plastic pails

2005-08-22 Thread Bruno M.

Hi Tom,

I hope and believe that your point is not ( totally ) correct,
because most fuel tanks from cars are made from plastics these days.

So running on bio diesel would mean that
your car starts dripping within a few months.   :-((
( but you are correct those esters can soften SOME plastics )

And trying to answer the original question:
Jeff you may find plastics who withstand most
of your products used in brewing bio-diesel, ( means chemically resistant )
BUT
In the process of making it, there is also a heat input needed,
how you gonna heat your plastic reactors  Jeff?
And do those plastic containers of yours,
keep their form when hot WVO, SVO, or bio diesel is in it?

You can collect ( cold ) WVO in HD-PE barrels,
but for part of the circus you better rely on metal or stainless.

grts
Bruno M.

~~
At 18:32 22/08/2005, Tom wrote:

Hi Jeffrey,

Short term there may not be a problem. Long term (3-12 months) BioD 
because it is an ester will soften (dissolve) most plastics and make them 
unusable.

Tom Irwin
-
From: Jeffrey Tan
Subject: [Biofuel] Using plastic pails

Dear all,
A quick queston. Is it okay to use plastic pails I find around my house
to built the reactor tank, and other tanks for the biodiesel process instead
of stainless steel? It is some much cheaper and easier to work with
plastics. Will there be unforseen problems with this? Thanks guys.

Jeff

== 


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Re: [Biofuel] Using plastic pails

2005-08-22 Thread marilyn

In the 70s, we fermented mash and distilledf ethanol in 55 
gallon drums, and went to Energy Fairs sponsored by the Carter 
administration to teach farmers how to make their own and do 
the same. They worked well.
Marilyn


Biofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote:
If you need to do it on the cheap you can't beat 55gal steel 
drums.(I use 
two of them) Just cut the top completely off, install a valve at the 
bottom 
with parts from US plastic. They also have plastic drum covers to 
seal your 
reaction. http://www.usplastic.com

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Re: [Biofuel] lye

How can you be on this list and still be shopping at WALMART!!!
Heaven help us.

Joe

LOL Joe!

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 first can I use red devil lye

Yes.

that is used for drain cleaner is it pure lye,

Yes - but make sure it's fresh, see the information at the Journey to 
Forever biodiesel section.

 it is in granular form should i grind it?

Do it this way:
Methoxide the easy way
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_aleksnew.html#easymeth

also is denatured alcohol what
 you buy in wal-mart buy the quart ok to use for my test batches and
 training?

No, tried by many, doesn't work. Use 99%+ methanol. For small test 
batches, see information on DriGas at the Journey to Forever 
biodiesel section. Also much information in the list archives, link 
at the end of all the messages.

Best wishes

Keith






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Re: [Biofuel] Separation

Hello Dave

 I've done a couple batches of WVO. One 11 ltr and another 8 ltr.
Both with 6.5 grams methoxide mix.

Did you titrate it or did you just use 6.5 grams as some people 
still advise? Did you start with virgin oil first?

Both batches settled completely within about 1 hour with no more settling
even though I let them settle for over 12 hours.

Sure there was more settling, even if you couldn't perceive it. I 
think you'd soon see the difference if you tried to wash it after 1 
hour as opposed to 12 hours settling.

I've read that it takes about at least 12hrs to get complete separation.

That's right.

Am I doing something wrong or am I going overboard.

Try the wash test:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality

Best wishes

Keith


I've got a marked 100ml flask and both times I'm getting about 12ml 
of glyserol.

Dave


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Re: [Biofuel] [Fwd: Economist make sense (except for Krugman)]





Hi Again Robert;

Since you brought up the parallels between fiction and reality one of
my favorite scifi series was Dune by Frank Herbert. Many have
speculated that the spice was a metaphor for petroleum and there are
many interesting similarities between events in the plot and what
happens in this world with power struggles and the petroleum industry.
It seems that the majority of people in my society think that there is
no problem on the horizon but of the ones who do recongnize it, they
fall into two groups. One group says well we should do something to
help the situation by preserving the oil try to prolong the time that
we have with it and do things to reduce our demand for it. These are
by far the majority of this small fraction of society. But then there
is a small fraction of that fraction who are so radical they remind me
of the Muad Dib character from the Dune novels who sought to destroy
the spice trade and plunge the empire into darkness. These guys say
things like ok then let's get on with it. Let's drive our gas guzzlers
and throw away our plastic and consume consume consume until it is all
gone, then the sooner we can deal with it, the sooner we can come out
the other side and be better off in the long run.
Here you are the lone guy who is driving vegetarian sitting at a table
full of your peers all of whom are living the petrolifestyle, extolling
the virtues of sustainability, feilding questions about running a
diesel engine on garbage from the kitchen of the very bar who's patio
you are lounging on, pint in hand, feeling like you are riding the wave
of positivity, and suddenly wise ass colleague number one (who just
bought a truck with a big V8) comes out with that BS? What do you say
to that? Talk about a show stopper. What cruel irony is it that people
can be dumb enough to swallow the whole consumerism lie hook line and
sinker, and then suddenly sprout brains enough to take the wind right
out of your sustainability sails? Sheesh. I wasn't prepared for that
one. Don't you love those moments when everybody is looking at you and
all you can do is sit there with your jaw hanging open?
Well gas is staying over a buck a liter it seems. I can't wait till I
run into him in the hall and I can laugh and say consume consume
consume.

Joe

robert luis rabello wrote:

  Joe Street wrote:

  
  
Hi Robert et al;
Rising energy costs and the 
secondary effects of that will force a tremendous change on our wasteful 
style of living.  After it is all over and the new stable system has 
settled down things will look very different.  During the transition 
people who are currently in denial will be forced into a brutal reality 
therapy.

  
  
	I watched "A Band of Brothers" recently and am reminded of a scene in 
which an American Airborne officer enters a German house with the 
intent of looting.  He sees the framed photograph of a Nazi officer, 
which he drops on the floor and proceeds to grind with the heel of his 
boot.  In walks the well dressed, well fed, matronly woman of the 
house, replete with a haughty _expression_.  She stares the officer down 
and he leaves.

	In the next scene, this same officer walks into a local "work camp" 
housing many men who are near death from starvation.  The American 
commander has "recruited" assistance from the nearby village in 
collecting and burying the dead, people who have denied any knowledge 
of the camp.  (My saintly mother in law, who lived in Germany during 
the war, also tells me she and her family knew nothing of the 
atrocities going on around them.  But she, a Sabbatarian, was beaten 
for not attending school on Saturday.  She has no love or sympathy for 
Nazis.)  This Airborne officer walks into the camp and sees a woman 
struggling to loosen a corpse from the pile.  This woman is the same 
one he saw earlier, in her home, but now the haughty _expression_ has 
been replaced by one of horror, as the reality of the situation beyond 
her comfortable existence overwhelms her consciousness.  (She uttered 
not a word in either scene, but the actress playing that role 
portrayed the change beautifully.)

	Likewise, the social paradigm which we enjoy in North America (and 
maybe Europe, too) will come to an end.  All the denial in the world 
will not suffice to smooth the harsh reality of that day.  Part of me 
feels like those who engage in denial deserve the suffering they will 
endure, while another part grieves for the hardship my countrymen must 
face for the arrogance and lack of leadership overflowing from the 
Congress and Executive.  We have been well trained as consumers.  Many 
of us know no other way, and the generation that survived the Great 
Depression is dying off as we write.


  
  
 And there will be a war.

  
  
	Indeed . . .  The roots of the new conflict originate in the ashes of 
WWII.

  
  
What happens during this time will 
surely be chaotic because those with thier heads in the sand right now 
will not

Re: [Biofuel] [Fwd: Economist make sense (except for Krugman)]

J: "It has been open for 60 years and I didn't open it, we have the US government to thank for that."

Thecomment opens Pandora's box for a lively discussion. Although I may havedisagreed with a couple of your posts in the past, I fall short of blaming you for the cold war. Hell,why should I presume you're even old enough to have been around back then?J: "There is a sense of scale though."

There certainly is no predefined scale: From multiple warhead ICBM to field artillery. There is no indication that one is predisposed to a certain scale of nuclear warfare.

J: "What does it mean; 'win'?

Ask a military commander. They'reusing it.They must think they can "win".

J: "Even a limited nuclear exchange (if it is possible -which I doubt)"

It's possible. It's happening right now. However, it's not an "exchange".

Nuclear weapons are not a deterrent. They can't be if the US governmentis willing to use them without warning or provocation.

Mike
Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Mike;I've stuck a few comments interspersed with yours below;Michael Redler wrote:

Joe,

"...but as for the nuclear arsenal I think its real value is in the deterent aspect."

With all due respect, you're really opening Pandora's box with that one.It has been open for 60 years and I didn't open it, we have the US government to thank for that.

Our nuclear arsenal doesn't make conclusions aboutweapons being offensive or defensive. There is no sense of scale norare there predetermined rules as to where or when they should be used.There is a sense of scale though. Nukes operate on a scale that makes the thin veil of atmosphere of our planet look a bit like a closed bottle.

There are two things you can count on when analyzing the behavior of any military entity, whether they be the modern American military orancient Romans:

When politicians recognize that they have a formidable army at their disposal, they will want to use it as a way of implementing policy (von Clausewitz).

Whenmilitary leaders have weapons at there disposal thathelps them win wars, they will use them. They are not concerned with the amount of destructionthey cause - only the objective. In fact, that's the whole point isn't it?What does it mean; "win"? Even a limited nuclear exchange (if it is possible -which I doubt) would release sufficient crap into the environment to be unhealthy to the so called victor.

Asthe US government passes judgmenton other countries for developing nuclear weapons, they are leaving behind battlefields in Iraq with nuclear waste inthe form of airborne dust and hard shells of glass-like, radioactive coatings on their former targets as a result of using depleted uranium.Yes and there is mounting evidence about just how nasty these clouds of gaslike nanoscale uranium dust really are and the jury is still out on what the long lasting effects are and just how far downwind they are felt.

The US government promises further development of battlefield nuclear weapons as they preach to others how potentially dangerous they are in the "wrong hands".

(IMO) there is nothing good about nuclear weapons andMAD (mutually assured destruction)has outlived it's usefulness (as if it ever was useful) and is nothing more than a cold war relic.

MikeYeah mutal assured destruction is yesterday's theme for sure 'cauze human nature is more modern now than it was during the cold war. That's why the end of the cold war was so stabilizing on the world. Threats never outlive thier usefulness so long as the ugly side of human nature continues to exist. Unless you want to turn the other cheek. We've never seen a serious attempt to implement that strategy on a global scale. Maybe that's a plan. Ok who should go first? Maybe we should draw straws or something. No wait -maybe just when the s--t is about to hit the fan god's hand will come down and squeeze the missle silos between his thumb and index finger like little zits on the face of the planet. And he'll probably level the playing field at the same time. Then we'll be able to start from scratch and everyone will realise they should play nice. Probably no one will want more than they need then. And
probably I will look like a movie star and all the women will want me but I will stick with just one. I think it could happen.J___
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Re: [Biofuel] lye




Wait a minute.

...using Walmart as a supplier for an energy rebellion?

That's poetic!!

:-)

Mike
Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
How can you be on this list and still be shopping at WALMART!!!Heaven help us.Joe[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:first can I use red devil lye that is used for drain cleaner is it pure lye, it is in granular form should i grind it? also is denatured alcohol what you buy in wal-mart buy the quart ok to use for my test batches and training? ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___
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Re: [Biofuel] lye

2005-08-22 Thread AntiFossil

OK look, glad you found this list, but take a little extra time and
find somewhere else to buy your supplies from. Save Walmart for those in utter denial. A Mom and Pop
location would be nice, or check out the suppliers listed at the JourneytoForever
site, or, as Keith said, work your way through the links at the end of
each and every message on this list. There are alot of very
intelligent people on this list who do not seem to mind answering
questions, any questions. But do them a favor and do your
homework first. Then, if you find that something doesn't make
sense, or some material is missing, come to the list and ask. 

As for Walmart, I can't possibly say it any better than Joe, Heaven help us.On 8/22/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:first can I use red devil lye that is used for drain cleaner is it pure lye,
it is in granular form should i grind it?also is denatured alcohol whatyou buy in wal-mart buy the quart ok to use for my test batches andtraining?___
Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/-- Mike KAntiFossilMN, USA
"Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to befoul the unholy 
alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmen of today." President Theodore Roosevelt - 1906Give me the money that has been spent in war and I will clothe every man, woman, and 
child in an attire of which kings and queens will be proud. I will build a schoolhouse in every valley over the whole earth. I will crown every hillside with a place of worship consecrated to peace: 
Charles SumnerQuotes from Information Clearing House 
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Re: [Biofuel] lye