date:20051027





Or compared to the political debates of a hundred years ago when people
would come out and sit for hours to listen to debates.  Neil Postman
talks about this in his book Amusing ourselves to death.

Joe

robert luis rabello wrote:

  Mike Weaver wrote:

  
  
What debates?

No one debates.  The moderator pitches one question, which is ignored, 
and the candidates answers another in general platitudes.  There is no 
debate.

  
  
	I agree.  Compare the quality of the debate between Nixon and Kennedy 
with the most recent interchange between Alfred P. Neumann and his 
retarded cousin to gain an appreciation of the height from which we've 
fallen.


robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/


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[Biofuel] Biediesel shelf life.

2005-10-27 Thread Rob Rogers



What is the shelf life of BD? Can I make 6 months of fuel at a time?


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Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method

2005-10-27 Thread Keith Addison


>What if we had a voting sytem like American Idol, where people can
>text message their votes every night  Sort of scary.  But is it
>scarier to think of a democracy where the average person could vote on
>each issue,

Lots of arguments about that in the past. Typical American answer: 
"There is no way I will ever support Mob Rule, over Rule of Law. 
Short and Simple answer." Others disagreed, including other Americans 
IIRC. Everybody likes short and simple answers, trouble is things 
aren't any more simple than they are, which often isn't. Why not 
start a KISS Party? I bet you'd get rich anyway, LOL!

Here's one thread (whole thread linked at the end of the page):
http://snipurl.com/j5lt
[biofuel] Direct Democracy

Best

Keith



>or one where as many people follow TV shows as care about
>their actual government
>
>On 10/27/05, Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >  Well time for a new thread I guess cause we are a long way off topic.  I
> > think you are right Zeke it's hard not to draw certain 
>conclusions about the
> > people who put these monsters in office.  The problem is it's like going
> > shopping.  You think you have choice but then you find out your money goes
> > to the same people at the top regardless of the choices you thought you
> > made.  The real problem is that the american lifestyle is not negotiable.
> > How many here would willingly give up a bunch of affluence and convenience
> > so that things might be a little more even in the world? Most of them are
> > too busy trying to catch the carrot on a stick. Even when the government
> > gives aid don't the farmers and shipping companies expect to be paid
> > handsomley in the deal?  So what really is the will of it's people that the
> > government should reflect?  Or is it really already doing that but in a way
> > that upsets people but is really the only way left to maintain it? The oil
> > is necessary to maintain the american lifestyle.  Control of world economy
> > is ideal to this plan even if it means doing dirty things that 
>aren't right.
> >  People are told they have democracy and they believe it but as you said
> > voting once every four years is hardly democratic.  Representative
> > governance works for the rich and hopefully they can take 
>everyone along for
> > the ride (because they need them).  Boy they must have some real belly
> > laughs in private when they think about the common man and the illusion of
> > freedom and democracy. I wonder what things would look like if we 
>had a real
> > democratic system.  If every important decision was put to a vote, sure it
> > would slow things down but hell a lot of people I talk to seem to think
> > things are 'progressing' -and I hate to use that term, too quickly anyways.
> > Surely electronic voting could make a system of national (and god forbid
> > should I be so bold as to suggestinternational) referendum possible.  I
> > know that only a tiny fraction of the world is on the web in terms of it's
> > population but that does not mean that people could not have acces to a
> > voting terminal. That must be a very scary thought.
> >
> >  Joe
> >
> >  Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> >
> >  Sometimes I wonder if the rest of the world understands that all
> > americans don't support GW and his policies though... After all, we
> > claim to be a democracy, so therefore, shouldn't the government by
> > nature reflect the will of it's people.
> >
> > In reality, only my congressional representative actualy represents
> > me, but neither of my senators does, nor my president or vice
> > president. I actually voted, but I effectively have almost no vote in
> > our government. Our system is set up for rule by a very narrow
> > majority with no effective minority voice. But if you listen to our
> > rhetoric abroad, it's easy to forget this.
> >
> > Zeke
> >
> > On 10/26/05, Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >  "It seems you are intent on grouping all Americans as one."
> >
> >
> >
> > Yes, It looks that way, doesn't it? So, I will explain.
> >
> >
> >
> > Usually, I try not to generalize because it leaves out a lot of information
> > and can be manipulated to align itself with a particular agenda. 
>However, on
> > those occasions when I say "Americans" (my apologies to Canadians 
>and others
> > living on this hemisphere) or US citizens in general, I'm pointing toward a
> > trend. The references I give below, are what I use to at least partly back
> > up my position on those trends. Now, although the argument I give 
>is my own,
> > I find others who agree (some of them are my neighbors).
> >
> >
> >
> > "...I went to war for this country and would do it over, for the right
> > reasons..."
> >
> >
> >
> > The fact that there are soldiers who are duty bound and fighting honorably
> > in a war is not the reason for the arrival of one to three hundred thousand
> > protesters in Washington DC on September 24th. It is the horribly 
>convoluted
> > reason for

Re: [Biofuel] Still looking for a cheap TEFC motor

2005-10-27 Thread Ken Dunn


> >Keith said:
>
> I think free motors should be common enough too, lots of things you
> can salvage a motor from, some might be TEFC. What gets junked that
> uses TEFC motors but it's not usually the motor failing that gets it
> junked?

I've been considering the exact same question.  I haven't come up with
the answer yet though.  Let me know if you think of something, I'll do
the same.

Take care,
Ken

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Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method

2005-10-27 Thread robert luis rabello


Mike Weaver wrote:

> What debates?
> 
> No one debates.  The moderator pitches one question, which is ignored, 
> and the candidates answers another in general platitudes.  There is no 
> debate.

I agree.  Compare the quality of the debate between Nixon and Kennedy 
with the most recent interchange between Alfred P. Neumann and his 
retarded cousin to gain an appreciation of the height from which we've 
fallen.


robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/


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Re: [Biofuel] Still looking for a cheap TEFC motor

2005-10-27 Thread Keith Addison


Hi Ken

>Keith said:
> > Frankly, Ken, I'm not that interested in whether it could or not.
> > Improvise, sure, go ahead, best of good luck and all, but motors are
> > common enough aren't they? Why not just use a motor?
>
>Well,  while motors are common enough buying the motor off the shelf
>instead of the pump will cost me atleast twice as much.

I think free motors should be common enough too, lots of things you 
can salvage a motor from, some might be TEFC. What gets junked that 
uses TEFC motors but it's not usually the motor failing that gets it 
junked?

> >On the other
> > hand if you get it to work that's great. Whatever, I can't see why
> > you think I might want to bet on it. You asked if it's TEFC, I told
> > you it is and pointed you to some information on its pumping limits,
> > and so?
>
>Absolutely!  I don't want to bet on it.  That's why I'm asking
>questions.  I'm trying to raise a family and do the right things.  $50
>is not much on the grand scale but $50 "here or there" is all together
>different.  And, as I've mentioned in the past, everything that I'm
>doing, I want to be able help others with.  That pump at Harbor
>Freight is something that seems readily available at an affordable
>price.  The TEFC motor (again, off the shelf) is not quite as
>affordable.  I'm here to tell you, though, if I can save myself, a
>friend or someone else who may be following the thread 50 bucks, I'm
>gonna do it.  In as globally friendly manner as possible, of course.

Absolutely to you too, and strength to yer arm withal. I didn't want 
to put on one side or the other on whether it'll work or not.

>I'll more than likely buy the motor that I found but, test the
>improvised motor taken from the pump, when I can afford it, later.
>
>Take care,
>Ken

And you, good luck

Keith


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Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method


What debates?

No one debates.  The moderator pitches one question, which is ignored, 
and the candidates answers another in general platitudes.  There is no 
debate.

Paul S Cantrell wrote:
> Chip,
> 
> On 10/27/05, *Chip Mefford* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > 
> wrote:
> 
> Personally, I think some simple changes would fix a lot of what
> is currently borked in the US political system. Debates for
> instance, pretty much all public debating (meaning televised)
> is done of, by and for the Twin Partys. This should cease
> immediately. This much of the system process would be
> well served by true open debate, including by design
> "third" or "fringe" party candidates. I think this alone
> would be easy to handle under law. I think it could
> make a huge difference.
> 
> 
> I agree completely...They  refused to let Nader in the debates which I 
> think would have further shown how similar the twin parties are...Both 
> parties have become conglomerations of extremists and moderates that 
> better approximate 4 or 5 parties that caucus together.
> 
> I concurr that the electoral college system is also
> borked, however, the "simple majority" system is
> also deeply flawed.
> 
> Folks try to look at things as if there were red
> and blue "states" (because it's the state vote
> that counts). But it isn't red and blue states,
> it's urban vs rural.
> 
> http://brianhayes.com/2005/09/red-blue-rural-urban.html
> 
> in a "popular" election, the urbanites would
> win outright. Policy would be set by those
> living furthest from the elemental necessities
> of existance.
> 
> 
> This is very interesting...http://www.urbanarchipelago.com  
> is...ummm...interesting, too, but divisive...My question is, 
> realistically, if we do away withe electoral college, won't more of 
> these urbanites realize that their votes count and go out and actually 
> vote?  Like here in South Carolina, many non-republicans stay home 
> because they feel their vote doesn't count because SC is a "red state"
> 
> blah blah blah. The Twin Party system is very
> much a very real problem. imho, the democrats
> have nothing to offer, they (at the top
> tiers) represent a life that I know little
> of. The republicans have nothing to offer,
> they (at the top tiers) represent a power
> structure that has no grasp on what the
> philosophic "common man" has to face in
> day to day life, AT ALL. The Libertarians
> (with a capitol L) have become the party
> of "I've got mine, and whatever I do to
> keep it is okay, you don't matter, at all".
> 
> America, the US, is hardly a united states
> at all. It is a chain (as it's nicely worded in
> the Urban Archipelago) of islands.
> 
> I'm just old enough to have spent a few formative
> years hitchhiking around America, in some ways
> too many years, in other ways, not enough. But
> "in those days" people still hitchhiked, and still
> met all kinds of folks. Now, no one hitchhikes,
> but everyone jabbers on cellphones, ignoring the
> person standing next to them in line.
> 
> blah blah blah.
> 
> 
> I'm jealous of your opportunity to do so...Things really changed in the 
> '80's didn't they? 
> 
> I like your use of the word 'borked'...I may have to use that...Maybe 
> 'Miers' will come to mean bleeding incompetence and cronyism?
> -- 
> Thanks,
> PC
> 
> He's the kind of a guy who lights up a room just by flicking a switch
> 
> History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have 
> exhausted all other alternatives. - Abba Eban
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 



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Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method

2005-10-27 Thread Paul S Cantrell

Personally, I think some simple changes would fix a lot of whatis currently borked in the US political system. Debates forinstance, pretty much all public debating (meaning televised)is done of, by and for the Twin Partys. This should cease
immediately. This much of the system process would bewell served by true open debate, including by design"third" or "fringe" party candidates. I think this alonewould be easy to handle under law. I think it could
make a huge difference.
I agree completely...They refused to let Nader in the debates
which I think would have further shown how similar the twin parties
are...Both parties have become conglomerations of extremists and
moderates that better approximate 4 or 5 parties that caucus together.
I concurr that the electoral college system is alsoborked, however, the "simple majority" system is
also deeply flawed.Folks try to look at things as if there were redand blue "states" (because it's the state votethat counts). But it isn't red and blue states,it's urban vs rural.
http://brianhayes.com/2005/09/red-blue-rural-urban.htmlin a "popular" election, the urbanites wouldwin outright. Policy would be set by those
living furthest from the elemental necessitiesof existance.
This is very interesting...http://www.urbanarchipelago.com
is...ummm...interesting, too, but divisive...My question is,
realistically, if we do away withe electoral college, won't more of
these urbanites realize that their votes count and go out and actually
vote? Like here in South Carolina, many non-republicans stay home
because they feel their vote doesn't count because SC is a "red state"
blah blah blah. The Twin Party system is verymuch a very real problem. imho, the democrats
have nothing to offer, they (at the toptiers) represent a life that I know littleof. The republicans have nothing to offer,they (at the top tiers) represent a powerstructure that has no grasp on what the
philosophic "common man" has to face inday to day life, AT ALL. The Libertarians(with a capitol L) have become the partyof "I've got mine, and whatever I do tokeep it is okay, you don't matter, at all".
America, the US, is hardly a united statesat all. It is a chain (as it's nicely worded inthe Urban Archipelago) of islands.I'm just old enough to have spent a few formativeyears hitchhiking around America, in some ways
too many years, in other ways, not enough. But"in those days" people still hitchhiked, and stillmet all kinds of folks. Now, no one hitchhikes,but everyone jabbers on cellphones, ignoring the
person standing next to them in line.blah blah blah.
I'm jealous of your opportunity to do so...Things really changed in the '80's didn't they?

I like your use of the word 'borked'...I may have to use that...Maybe
'Miers' will come to mean bleeding incompetence and cronyism?-- Thanks,PCHe's the kind of a guy who lights up a room just by flicking a switchHistory teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives. - Abba Eban

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Re: [Biofuel] lye supply

2005-10-27 Thread Bobby Clark


Include me in the interested group.

Bobby Clark


>From: Evergreen Solutions <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: [Biofuel] lye supply
>Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:53:27 -0400
>
>Hi all, I cleared this with Keith, so please be advised it is NOT an ad.
>
>Our cooperative here just made arrangements for continuing, large scale 
>NaOH
>delivery from a large chemical supply company. As an effort to share this
>with the community, we're prepared to offer it to homebrewers for $2 a 
>pound
>plus shipping (and shipping is apparently about $6 most of the time). You
>might be able to find it cheaper locally, and if so I applaud you and 
>please
>disregard this message. Shipping is the real killer. If you're interested,
>toss me an email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] and we'll go from there. I'm 
>not
>sure yet whether it's flake or pellet, but I'll assume that it's flake 
>since
>it's low-cost and bulk.
>
>If enough people are interested, we'll put up a website or something
>similar, maybe run it through ebay or something for security.
>
>~Thanks!~


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>messages):
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>



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Re: [Biofuel] lye supply

2005-10-27 Thread Evergreen Solutions



As for:On 10/27/05, Doug Foskey <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
This sounds like an outright lye!!
regards Doug

I did email keith  separately several days ago to get his
permission. We're not making money on this proposition, I'm just trying
to share, if you're got your own supply or are afraid of ebay/paypal or
w/e, then please ignore it. I guess my name on here makes it seem
funny, but, you know, whatever. Again, it's no sweat off my back, we're
going through the stuff in 550lb bags locally so your $4 isn't making us rich.

We're working on a pretty good sized production model here, please
pardon my exuberance at wanting to share. If it offends you, that was
not my intention.

And then for:
> my name is now officially "people">
Are you saying that I should address each person individially, or that maybe you're interested?


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Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method

2005-10-27 Thread Chip Mefford

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Paul S Cantrell wrote:
> The last 2 elections would
> have probably gone the other way if it were simple majority. I think the
> concerns over time zones and the like could be worked out and we might have
> more than 2 twin parties.

Personally, I think some simple changes would fix a lot of what
is currently borked in the US political system. Debates for
instance, pretty much all public debating (meaning televised)
is done of, by and for the Twin Partys. This should cease
immediately. This much of the system process would be
well served by true open debate, including by design
"third" or "fringe" party candidates. I think this alone
would be easy to handle under law. I think it could
make a huge difference.

I concurr that the electoral college system is also
borked, however, the "simple majority" system is
also deeply flawed.

Folks try to look at things as if there were red
and blue "states" (because it's the state vote
that counts). But it isn't red and blue states,
it's urban vs rural.

http://brianhayes.com/2005/09/red-blue-rural-urban.html

in a "popular" election, the urbanites would
win outright. Policy would be set by those
living furthest from the elemental necessities
of existance.

blah blah blah. The Twin Party system is very
much a very real problem. imho, the democrats
have nothing to offer, they (at the top
tiers) represent a life that I know little
of. The republicans have nothing to offer,
they (at the top tiers) represent a power
structure that has no grasp on what the
philosophic "common man" has to face in
day to day life, AT ALL. The Libertarians
(with a capitol L) have become the party
of "I've got mine, and whatever I do to
keep it is okay, you don't matter, at all".

America, the US, is hardly a united states
at all. It is a chain (as it's nicely worded in
the Urban Archipelago) of islands.

I'm just old enough to have spent a few formative
years hitchhiking around America, in some ways
too many years, in other ways, not enough. But
"in those days" people still hitchhiked, and still
met all kinds of folks. Now, no one hitchhikes,
but everyone jabbers on cellphones, ignoring the
person standing next to them in line.

blah blah blah.

- --
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFDYP1G0STXFHxUucwRApFMAJ4i11uS058qyaEC4DdE59Q515LjigCgjZ/6
EmYs/BO+956ZBq/jAivzsfA=
=YGb/
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[Biofuel] Electric eraser was: Still looking for a cheap TEFC motor

2005-10-27 Thread Garth & Kim Travis


Greetings,
Thank you so much for this idea.  I do have an electric eraser and it 
certainly is much quieter that the drill for small test batches.  I will 
inform Garth he needs a new rod that is the right size for his stirrer, 
then I can stand being home while he plays.

Last night Garth titrated his first batch of used oil.  Extremely well 
defined separation with one hour.  Progress is happening.  We have 2.5 
fifty five gallon drums of used oil to use up, so I am hoping for real 
production soon.

Bright Blessings,
Kim
At 08:43 AM 10/26/2005, you wrote:
>I don't know about a TEFC motor but while on the subject I thought I
>would throw in an idea for a really low cost stirrer I built that was
>too easy.  It may be too light for large batches but is perfect for 30
>liters or maybe more.  I picked up some surplus electric pencil
>erasers.  A 1/4 inch shaft fits perfectly where the eraser rod used to
>fit.  Tap the end of the shaft with a 4-40 thread and put a plastic
>model boat prop on.  I use this for mixing methoxide (stainless rod) all
>the time.  It is a very quiet motor :-)
>
>Joe
>
>
> >  I wonder if someone could provide
> >some assistance.  Is it in fact a TEFC motor?  What sort of HP are we
> >talking about?  Could I disassemble the pump and use the motor to
> >drive my planned stir biodiesel process?
> >
> >___
> >
> >
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Democracy


> > >viz straight represetative democracy - be careful what you wish for.  If
> > >Saudi Arabia had a pure representational system they'd wind up with a
> > >far more radical Wahab state.

Well, that would not be so good for the US I agree.  But are you
saying that a dictatorship is better than a democracy, if the majority
of the people don't agree with us?  That is exactly what Muslims have
learned: "democracy" means will of the people, as long as that will
isn't to become a religious state.  Back in Algeria in the 60's, and
continuing on till today.  I've talked to a number of arabs who hate
the US and Europe promoting democracy, because they know that we don't
really mean it.  Perhaps why the wahabists enjoy such support in Saudi
Arabia now?

Besides, the religious fundamentalists are succeeding in taking power
just as well here as in the middle east.

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Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method





Zeke;

A democratic system modelled after a TV show.  That is just perfect. 
Why not?  (shakes head sadly) TV is the basis for everything almost it
seems.  Well as long as a large percentage of people vote it might be
good.  (I invite criticizm here please) The larger the voting
population the better.  There is always the risk of some madness being
sustained at a local level.  For example if this idea were enacted in
the last century at the state level chances are that the southern
states would never have abolished slavery, but if it happened at a
national level the laws may have come even sooner.  As long as we are
using TV as our model it would also be good if there was a prime time
slot devoted to some kind of federally funded open platform where
people could put forth thier ideas or give information that does not
pass the traditional media filters.  The internet is great for this but
unfortunately it requires that people go looking for alternative
information.  Ironically it's just the kind of people who don't go
looking for the truth that hold sway in these farce elections it seems,
and the type who do are not sufficient in numbers to make much of a
difference. All those who didn't vote for Bush for example. All those
who were against the war crime of invading Iraq for example. Of course
the downfall of that idea is the inevitable censorship that would be
required to keep that form of media within certain bounds of
tastefulness. Certain bastions of power and wealth would no doubt still
try to sway the masses. This has always been the case, but I like to
believe that americans are smart enough to choose wisely if they are
well informed ( even though I berate my fellow man often for seeming to
be just the opposite , I believe it is  just because we are so well
DISinformed which is totally forgiveable).

Joe

Zeke Yewdall wrote:

  What if we had a voting sytem like American Idol, where people can
text message their votes every night  Sort of scary.  But is it
scarier to think of a democracy where the average person could vote on
each issue, or one where as many people follow TV shows as care about
their actual government

On 10/27/05, Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  
  
 Well time for a new thread I guess cause we are a long way off topic.  I
think you are right Zeke it's hard not to draw certain conclusions about the
people who put these monsters in office.  The problem is it's like going
shopping.  You think you have choice but then you find out your money goes
to the same people at the top regardless of the choices you thought you
made.  The real problem is that the american lifestyle is not negotiable.
How many here would willingly give up a bunch of affluence and convenience
so that things might be a little more even in the world? Most of them are
too busy trying to catch the carrot on a stick. Even when the government
gives aid don't the farmers and shipping companies expect to be paid
handsomley in the deal?  So what really is the will of it's people that the
government should reflect?  Or is it really already doing that but in a way
that upsets people but is really the only way left to maintain it? The oil
is necessary to maintain the american lifestyle.  Control of world economy
is ideal to this plan even if it means doing dirty things that aren't right.
 People are told they have democracy and they believe it but as you said
voting once every four years is hardly democratic.  Representative
governance works for the rich and hopefully they can take everyone along for
the ride (because they need them).  Boy they must have some real belly
laughs in private when they think about the common man and the illusion of
freedom and democracy. I wonder what things would look like if we had a real
democratic system.  If every important decision was put to a vote, sure it
would slow things down but hell a lot of people I talk to seem to think
things are 'progressing' -and I hate to use that term, too quickly anyways.
Surely electronic voting could make a system of national (and god forbid
should I be so bold as to suggestinternational) referendum possible.  I
know that only a tiny fraction of the world is on the web in terms of it's
population but that does not mean that people could not have acces to a
voting terminal. That must be a very scary thought.

 Joe

 Zeke Yewdall wrote:

 Sometimes I wonder if the rest of the world understands that all
americans don't support GW and his policies though... After all, we
claim to be a democracy, so therefore, shouldn't the government by
nature reflect the will of it's people.

In reality, only my congressional representative actualy represents
me, but neither of my senators does, nor my president or vice
president. I actually voted, but I effectively have almost no vote in
our government. Our system is set up for rule by a very narrow
majority with no effective minority voice. But if you listen to our
rhetoric abroad, it's easy to forge

Re: [Biofuel] Democracy


An interesting case in point is the small town that I'm moving to. 
Back in the 70's they set up their own participatory democracy (not a
representative democracy), and basically succeeded from county
control.  They have their own building department, water board, etc. 
Only 60 some people live there full time.   However now, 30 years
later, the biggest problem they have is apathy.  They can't even get
15% of the town to regularly show up for community meetings, which is
where they're supposed to decide stuff.

On 10/27/05, Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Mike Weaver wrote:
>
> >viz straight represetative democracy - be careful what you wish for.  If
> >Saudi Arabia had a pure representational system they'd wind up with a
> >far more radical Wahab state.  Look at California's referendum system -
> >it's out of control.  It's created an ungovernable state.  Looks at
> >Arizona's "you pay no school taxes if you're over a certain age"
> >measure.  Great - I got my free education the hell with you.  Just keep
> >paying my social security.
> >
> >
> Yes because it was referendum taken at too local a level.  The more you
> shrink the voting pool the more radical and crazy it becomes.  The more
> you broaden it the more even (and slow) it becomes.
>
> >Presumably we elect leaders to make decision in the best interest of the
> >governed.  I don't know that the founders ever expected the voters to be
> >so apathetic and so easily fooled.
> >
> >
> A dangerous and foolishly naive presumption it has turned out to be
> don't you think?  Aren't we all dumb for letting the charade go on!
>
> Joe
>
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method

Paul S Cantrell wrote:

> It'd be the best reality TV show yet!  American Idol: The West 
> Wing...Yes, Very Scary!
>
> It would still favor the richer people, unless the poor were well 
> organized and "voted" in blocks.  The minority has protections in the 
> Constitution. 
> The representative Republic we have in the US was setup by rich 
> landowners for rich landowners and it hasn't changed that terribly 
> much since then.

But the poor and mid class are the MAJORITY.  A lot of people don't vote 
because they are apathetic and feel that things are out of thier hands.  
They don't like it but feel that there is nothing they can do about it.  
If didn't have that assumption and felt empowered they would have the 
voice and collectively would change a lot of things.

>  
>
> I could see national referendums on certain issues being a good thing 
> and might increase voter interest and turnout overall.

Yes and there would still be international problems but it would be a 
start. Perhaps an international system could be worked out.  Maybe that 
was the notion that the united nations was supposed to serve?? Way back 
when the world was united against a fascist??

Joe

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Re: [Biofuel] Democracy




Mike Weaver wrote:

>viz straight represetative democracy - be careful what you wish for.  If 
>Saudi Arabia had a pure representational system they'd wind up with a 
>far more radical Wahab state.  Look at California's referendum system - 
>it's out of control.  It's created an ungovernable state.  Looks at 
>Arizona's "you pay no school taxes if you're over a certain age" 
>measure.  Great - I got my free education the hell with you.  Just keep 
>paying my social security.
>  
>
Yes because it was referendum taken at too local a level.  The more you 
shrink the voting pool the more radical and crazy it becomes.  The more 
you broaden it the more even (and slow) it becomes.

>Presumably we elect leaders to make decision in the best interest of the 
>governed.  I don't know that the founders ever expected the voters to be 
>so apathetic and so easily fooled.
>  
>
A dangerous and foolishly naive presumption it has turned out to be 
don't you think?  Aren't we all dumb for letting the charade go on!

Joe



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Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method

2005-10-27 Thread Paul S Cantrell



It would still favor the richer people, unless the poor were well
organized and "voted" in blocks.  The minority has protections in
the Constitution.  
The representative Republic we have in the US was setup by rich
landowners for rich landowners and it hasn't changed that terribly much
since then.  

I could see national referendums on certain issues being a good thing and might increase voter interest and turnout overall.

I think we need to get rid of the electoral college as far as
Presidential elections go...1 person does not equal 1 vote...The last 2
elections would have probably gone the other way if it were simple
majority.  I think the concerns over time zones and the like could
be worked out and we might have more than 2 twin parties.

On 10/27/05, Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
What if we had a voting sytem like American Idol, where people cantext message their votes every night  Sort of scary.  But is itscarier to think of a democracy where the average person could vote oneach issue, or one where as many people follow TV shows as care about
their actual government-- Thanks,PCHe's the kind of a guy who lights up a room just by flicking a switchHistory teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives. - Abba Eban

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[Biofuel] Democracy


viz straight represetative democracy - be careful what you wish for.  If 
Saudi Arabia had a pure representational system they'd wind up with a 
far more radical Wahab state.  Look at California's referendum system - 
it's out of control.  It's created an ungovernable state.  Looks at 
Arizona's "you pay no school taxes if you're over a certain age" 
measure.  Great - I got my free education the hell with you.  Just keep 
paying my social security.

Presumably we elect leaders to make decision in the best interest of the 
governed.  I don't know that the founders ever expected the voters to be 
so apathetic and so easily fooled.

And no, I don't think ANY of my neighbors would give up ANYTHING so that
others might have a bit more.  In fact, I'm amazed at the lengths they 
will go to to try to make me comply with their notion of what's proper.
No woodstoves
No older cars (yes, it looks fine, it's just an '89)
Quotes:  "That garden really looks out of place - you're not going to do 
that every year, are you?"  Yes, I am.
"I wish you'd get rid of that woodpile, and it's noisy when you split 
wood." Awww
the list goes on...


Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> What if we had a voting sytem like American Idol, where people can
> text message their votes every night  Sort of scary.  But is it
> scarier to think of a democracy where the average person could vote on
> each issue, or one where as many people follow TV shows as care about
> their actual government
> 
> On 10/27/05, Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> Well time for a new thread I guess cause we are a long way off topic.  I
>>think you are right Zeke it's hard not to draw certain conclusions about the
>>people who put these monsters in office.  The problem is it's like going
>>shopping.  You think you have choice but then you find out your money goes
>>to the same people at the top regardless of the choices you thought you
>>made.  The real problem is that the american lifestyle is not negotiable.
>>How many here would willingly give up a bunch of affluence and convenience
>>so that things might be a little more even in the world? Most of them are
>>too busy trying to catch the carrot on a stick. Even when the government
>>gives aid don't the farmers and shipping companies expect to be paid
>>handsomley in the deal?  So what really is the will of it's people that the
>>government should reflect?  Or is it really already doing that but in a way
>>that upsets people but is really the only way left to maintain it? The oil
>>is necessary to maintain the american lifestyle.  Control of world economy
>>is ideal to this plan even if it means doing dirty things that aren't right.
>> People are told they have democracy and they believe it but as you said
>>voting once every four years is hardly democratic.  Representative
>>governance works for the rich and hopefully they can take everyone along for
>>the ride (because they need them).  Boy they must have some real belly
>>laughs in private when they think about the common man and the illusion of
>>freedom and democracy. I wonder what things would look like if we had a real
>>democratic system.  If every important decision was put to a vote, sure it
>>would slow things down but hell a lot of people I talk to seem to think
>>things are 'progressing' -and I hate to use that term, too quickly anyways.
>>Surely electronic voting could make a system of national (and god forbid
>>should I be so bold as to suggestinternational) referendum possible.  I
>>know that only a tiny fraction of the world is on the web in terms of it's
>>population but that does not mean that people could not have acces to a
>>voting terminal. That must be a very scary thought.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> Zeke Yewdall wrote:
>>
>> Sometimes I wonder if the rest of the world understands that all
>>americans don't support GW and his policies though... After all, we
>>claim to be a democracy, so therefore, shouldn't the government by
>>nature reflect the will of it's people.
>>
>>In reality, only my congressional representative actualy represents
>>me, but neither of my senators does, nor my president or vice
>>president. I actually voted, but I effectively have almost no vote in
>>our government. Our system is set up for rule by a very narrow
>>majority with no effective minority voice. But if you listen to our
>>rhetoric abroad, it's easy to forget this.
>>
>>Zeke
>>
>>On 10/26/05, Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> "It seems you are intent on grouping all Americans as one."
>>
>>
>>
>>Yes, It looks that way, doesn't it? So, I will explain.
>>
>>
>>
>>Usually, I try not to generalize because it leaves out a lot of information
>>and can be manipulated to align itself with a particular agenda. However, on
>>those occasions when I say "Americans" (my apologies to Canadians and others
>>living on this hemisphere) or US citizens in general, I'm pointing toward a
>>trend. The references I give below, are what I use to at least partly bac

Re: [Biofuel] Starting at Square One


Ah..  My '91 rabbit isn't even running yet.  Currently the car's in
the driveway, and the rebuilt engine's on the garage floor...   But
with luck, it'll be up and running on waste veggie oil in a few more
weeks, or months (3 months and counting so far)

On 10/27/05, Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Twicky Wabbit
>
> As I recall, those things bear a good cooling system flush frequently aw
> well...
>
> Ed Hall wrote:
> > Food for thought.
> >
> > I have a '79 Rabbit. I recently put in an ammeter mostly out of curiosity
> > and because I had one lay'n around.
> >
> > The bolts that hold the alternator bracket to the block broke off one night
> > (non-spec bolts + cyclic fatigue over time). The alternator is the belt
> > tensioner for the water pump. By losing the tension in the belt, the water
> > pump stopped pumping. Over heating is the weak link in the otherwise amazing
> > VW diesel engine.
> >
> > Fortunately the ammeter indicated something was up, I pulled over to have a
> > look and was surprised to find my alternator dangling. The idiot light never
> > came on to indicate that the alternator was no longer alternatoring.
> >
> > I could have easily cooked my motor that night.
> >
> > Macgyver trick: the rubber gasket in the lid of a 5 gallon bucket is a great
> > emergency fan belt. I doubled one up and ran it around the main pulley and
> > water pump pulley. I found one in a nearby dumpster. Once again, I found my
> > salvation in the bottom of a dumpser.
> >
> > Happy motoring!
> >
> >
> >>From: Kurt Nolte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Starting at Square One
> >>Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:33:51 -0400
> >>
> >>
> From the picture the engine looks the same, but could be the same
> >>>design and smaller displacement I suppose. The non-working
> >>>temperature guage is concerning, because overheating a diesel with an
> >>>aluminum head and cast iron block usually means putting a new head
> >>>gasket in it -- as least in the VW diesels. But that's pretty easy to
> >>>add a new temperature guage.
> >>>
> >>>Zeke
> >>>
> >>
> >>Yeah, if I do end up getting it, I have a whole suite of gauges and meters
> >>that are going in it. Head temp, Oil temp, Voltmeter, Ammeter (Iffy about
> >>putting this one in, unnecessary work.), stuff of that nature; I've been
> >>scrounging up meters for a while now. If it doesn't have a tach I'll see
> >>what I can do to pick a tasteful one up, instead of those gaudy "racer
> >>style" tachos.
> >>
> >>Still flirting with the idea, guess I should my act together and make a
> >>decision, eh?
> >>
> >>-Kurt
> >
> >
> >
> >>___
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> >>
> >>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
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> >>
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> >>messages):
> >>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [Biofuel] Starting at Square One


Twicky Wabbit

As I recall, those things bear a good cooling system flush frequently aw 
well...

Ed Hall wrote:
> Food for thought.
> 
> I have a '79 Rabbit. I recently put in an ammeter mostly out of curiosity 
> and because I had one lay'n around.
> 
> The bolts that hold the alternator bracket to the block broke off one night 
> (non-spec bolts + cyclic fatigue over time). The alternator is the belt 
> tensioner for the water pump. By losing the tension in the belt, the water 
> pump stopped pumping. Over heating is the weak link in the otherwise amazing 
> VW diesel engine.
> 
> Fortunately the ammeter indicated something was up, I pulled over to have a 
> look and was surprised to find my alternator dangling. The idiot light never 
> came on to indicate that the alternator was no longer alternatoring.
> 
> I could have easily cooked my motor that night.
> 
> Macgyver trick: the rubber gasket in the lid of a 5 gallon bucket is a great 
> emergency fan belt. I doubled one up and ran it around the main pulley and 
> water pump pulley. I found one in a nearby dumpster. Once again, I found my 
> salvation in the bottom of a dumpser.
> 
> Happy motoring!
> 
> 
>>From: Kurt Nolte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Starting at Square One
>>Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:33:51 -0400
>>
>>
From the picture the engine looks the same, but could be the same
>>>design and smaller displacement I suppose. The non-working
>>>temperature guage is concerning, because overheating a diesel with an
>>>aluminum head and cast iron block usually means putting a new head
>>>gasket in it -- as least in the VW diesels. But that's pretty easy to
>>>add a new temperature guage.
>>>
>>>Zeke
>>>
>>
>>Yeah, if I do end up getting it, I have a whole suite of gauges and meters
>>that are going in it. Head temp, Oil temp, Voltmeter, Ammeter (Iffy about
>>putting this one in, unnecessary work.), stuff of that nature; I've been
>>scrounging up meters for a while now. If it doesn't have a tach I'll see
>>what I can do to pick a tasteful one up, instead of those gaudy "racer
>>style" tachos.
>>
>>Still flirting with the idea, guess I should my act together and make a
>>decision, eh?
>>
>>-Kurt
> 
> 
> 
>>___
>>Biofuel mailing list
>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>
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>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
>>messages):
>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method


What if we had a voting sytem like American Idol, where people can
text message their votes every night  Sort of scary.  But is it
scarier to think of a democracy where the average person could vote on
each issue, or one where as many people follow TV shows as care about
their actual government

On 10/27/05, Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  Well time for a new thread I guess cause we are a long way off topic.  I
> think you are right Zeke it's hard not to draw certain conclusions about the
> people who put these monsters in office.  The problem is it's like going
> shopping.  You think you have choice but then you find out your money goes
> to the same people at the top regardless of the choices you thought you
> made.  The real problem is that the american lifestyle is not negotiable.
> How many here would willingly give up a bunch of affluence and convenience
> so that things might be a little more even in the world? Most of them are
> too busy trying to catch the carrot on a stick. Even when the government
> gives aid don't the farmers and shipping companies expect to be paid
> handsomley in the deal?  So what really is the will of it's people that the
> government should reflect?  Or is it really already doing that but in a way
> that upsets people but is really the only way left to maintain it? The oil
> is necessary to maintain the american lifestyle.  Control of world economy
> is ideal to this plan even if it means doing dirty things that aren't right.
>  People are told they have democracy and they believe it but as you said
> voting once every four years is hardly democratic.  Representative
> governance works for the rich and hopefully they can take everyone along for
> the ride (because they need them).  Boy they must have some real belly
> laughs in private when they think about the common man and the illusion of
> freedom and democracy. I wonder what things would look like if we had a real
> democratic system.  If every important decision was put to a vote, sure it
> would slow things down but hell a lot of people I talk to seem to think
> things are 'progressing' -and I hate to use that term, too quickly anyways.
> Surely electronic voting could make a system of national (and god forbid
> should I be so bold as to suggestinternational) referendum possible.  I
> know that only a tiny fraction of the world is on the web in terms of it's
> population but that does not mean that people could not have acces to a
> voting terminal. That must be a very scary thought.
>
>  Joe
>
>  Zeke Yewdall wrote:
>
>  Sometimes I wonder if the rest of the world understands that all
> americans don't support GW and his policies though... After all, we
> claim to be a democracy, so therefore, shouldn't the government by
> nature reflect the will of it's people.
>
> In reality, only my congressional representative actualy represents
> me, but neither of my senators does, nor my president or vice
> president. I actually voted, but I effectively have almost no vote in
> our government. Our system is set up for rule by a very narrow
> majority with no effective minority voice. But if you listen to our
> rhetoric abroad, it's easy to forget this.
>
> Zeke
>
> On 10/26/05, Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>  "It seems you are intent on grouping all Americans as one."
>
>
>
> Yes, It looks that way, doesn't it? So, I will explain.
>
>
>
> Usually, I try not to generalize because it leaves out a lot of information
> and can be manipulated to align itself with a particular agenda. However, on
> those occasions when I say "Americans" (my apologies to Canadians and others
> living on this hemisphere) or US citizens in general, I'm pointing toward a
> trend. The references I give below, are what I use to at least partly back
> up my position on those trends. Now, although the argument I give is my own,
> I find others who agree (some of them are my neighbors).
>
>
>
> "...I went to war for this country and would do it over, for the right
> reasons..."
>
>
>
> The fact that there are soldiers who are duty bound and fighting honorably
> in a war is not the reason for the arrival of one to three hundred thousand
> protesters in Washington DC on September 24th. It is the horribly convoluted
> reason for war which is so disturbing.
>
>
>
> "All I can do is try in my own way to change things for the better."
>
>
>
> The US as a whole is showing symptoms of fascism. If I, as you say, "group
> all Americans as one", please prove me wrong and resist the simple
> perception of our culture which hides our dark little secrets and makes
> hypocrites out of our government each time they go to preach democracy to
> another sovereign nation. Our government needs to "play nice with others"
> and work toward being a participant in a World community instead of further
> construction of it's empire.
>
>
>
> Mike
>
>
> Derick Giorchino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> You get not too much of an argument from m

Re: [Biofuel] Oil and democracy -was-Scientific method





Well time for a new thread I guess cause we are a long way off topic. 
I think you are right Zeke it's hard not to draw certain conclusions
about the people who put these monsters in office.  The problem is it's
like going shopping.  You think you have choice but then you find out
your money goes to the same people at the top regardless of the choices
you thought you made.  The real problem is that the american lifestyle
is not negotiable.  How many here would willingly give up a bunch of
affluence and convenience so that things might be a little more even in
the world? Most of them are too busy trying to catch the carrot on a
stick. Even when the government gives aid don't the farmers and
shipping companies expect to be paid handsomley in the deal?  So what
really is the will of it's people that the government should reflect? 
Or is it really already doing that but in a way that upsets people but
is really the only way left to maintain it? The oil is necessary to
maintain the american lifestyle.  Control of world economy is ideal to
this plan even if it means doing dirty things that aren't right. 
People are told they have democracy and they believe it but as you said
voting once every four years is hardly democratic.  Representative
governance works for the rich and hopefully they can take everyone
along for the ride (because they need them).  Boy they must have some
real belly laughs in private when they think about the common man and
the illusion of freedom and democracy. I wonder what things would look
like if we had a real democratic system.  If every important decision
was put to a vote, sure it would slow things down but hell a lot of
people I talk to seem to think things are 'progressing' -and I hate to
use that term, too quickly anyways. Surely electronic voting could make
a system of national (and god forbid should I be so bold as to
suggestinternational) referendum possible.  I know that only a tiny
fraction of the world is on the web in terms of it's population but
that does not mean that people could not have acces to a voting
terminal. That must be a very scary thought.

Joe

Zeke Yewdall wrote:

  Sometimes I wonder if the rest of the world understands that all
americans don't support GW and his policies though...  After all, we
claim to be a democracy, so therefore, shouldn't the government by
nature reflect the will of it's people.

In reality, only my congressional representative actualy represents
me, but neither of my senators does, nor my president or vice
president.  I actually voted, but I effectively have almost no vote in
our government.  Our system is set up for rule by a very narrow
majority with no effective minority voice. But if you listen to our
rhetoric abroad, it's easy to forget this.

Zeke

On 10/26/05, Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  
  

"It seems you are intent on grouping all Americans as one."



Yes, It looks that way, doesn't it? So, I will explain.



Usually, I try not to generalize because it leaves out a lot of information
and can be manipulated to align itself with a particular agenda. However, on
those occasions when I say "Americans" (my apologies to Canadians and others
living on this hemisphere) or US citizens in general, I'm pointing toward a
trend. The references I give below, are what I use to at least partly back
up my position on those trends. Now, although the argument I give is my own,
I find others who agree (some of them are my neighbors).



"...I went to war for this country and would do it over, for the right
reasons..."



The fact that there are soldiers who are duty bound and fighting honorably
in a war is not the reason for the arrival of one to three hundred thousand
protesters in Washington DC on September 24th. It is the horribly convoluted
reason for war which is so disturbing.



"All I can do is try in my own way to change things for the better."



The US as a whole is showing symptoms of fascism. If I, as you say, "group
all Americans as one", please prove me wrong and resist the simple
perception of our culture which hides our dark little secrets and makes
hypocrites out of our government each time they go to preach democracy to
another sovereign nation. Our government needs to "play nice with others"
and work toward being a participant in a World community instead of further
construction of it's empire.



Mike


Derick Giorchino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



You get not too much of an argument from me but. It seems you are intent on
grouping all Americans as one.

 I also have more than one citizenship. But I went to war for this country
and would do it over, for the right reasons, when I came to America many
years ago it was the envy of the world. And I feel it still would be. If not
for the government and corporate B.S. It disgusts me, but I don't include
myself as part of that. All I can do is try in my own way to change things
for the better. If not for me but maybe my kids and grand kids. Not that I

[Biofuel] People of the lye


Dear People, where are you?  I am always looking for new lyes; I am 
tired of the old ones.

Mike W

Jason and Katie wrote:
> my name is now officially "people"
> 
> Hi all, I cleared this with Keith, so please be advised it is NOT an ad.
> 
> Our cooperative here just made arrangements for continuing, large
> scale NaOH delivery from a large chemical supply company. As an
> effort to share this with the community, we're prepared to offer it
> to homebrewers for $2 a pound plus shipping (and shipping is
> apparently about $6 most of the time). You might be able to find it
> cheaper locally, and if so I applaud you and please disregard this
> message. Shipping is the real killer. If you're interested, toss me
> an email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  and we'll go from there. I'm not
> sure yet whether it's flake or pellet, but I'll assume that it's
> flake since it's low-cost and bulk.
> 
> If enough people are interested, we'll put up a website or something
> similar, maybe run it through ebay or something for security.
> 
> ~Thanks!~
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> 



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Re: [Biofuel] A new website


Keep asking for Linux version when you talk to your rep. I do with my 
clients on Camworks and so on.

LSB is a step in the right direction.

Now, who wants to leap into the Debian Geetoo Progeny roll your own 
question!

Doug Foskey wrote:
> Rafal,
>  congratulations on being part of the Samba team! I am constantly amazed how 
> many Biodiesel list members are involved with Open Source software.
> 
>  A comment to others on Linux: there is now a move by the major Linux 
> developers to standardise the way that Linux is seen by programs, so the old 
> issues of differing packages for different flavours of Linux will then be a 
> thing of the past. The common Linux desktop is ever closer.
> 
> regards Doug
> 
> 
> On Thursday 27 October 2005 9:20, Rafal Szczesniak wrote:
> 
>>On Wed, Oct 26, 2005 at 03:08:26PM -0600, Zeke Yewdall wrote:
>>
>>>Unfortunately, there are too many specialized engineering software
>>>packages that I use every day that can only operate under windows
>>>(often they are even picky about the version of windows) for me to
>>>consider Linux.
>>
>>Yes, I'm in fortunate position of being a programmer and network
>>engineer. As for now it is a great environment for people of this
>>profession. I must agree though, engineers using CAD software (of various
>>fields) still have a hard time when trying to switch to free unix-like
>>systems. It just needs a bit more time, like many new things.
>>
>>
>>>If it was just web browsing, spreadsheets, word
>>>processing, and the like, I'd get rid of windows in a heartbeat.  I've
>>>already dumped IE and outlook.
>>
>>Indeed. You can already switch to safer and open replacements of web
>>browser and mail reader as well as office suite (especially with
>>just-released OpenOffice 2.0). Isn't it great ? There's a choice finally
>>for average user.
>>
>>
>>>I want Google or Mozilla to come out with an operating system.
>>
>>No need to. Just wait for unix desktop environments to become mature
>>enough to be widely usable.
> 
> 
> ___
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> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> 
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> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



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Re: [Biofuel] Scientific method- Easy Keith!





Amen Mike, Amen.

And please don't appologise to Canadians when you use the term American
because we ARE american in both senses of that word for all intents and
purposes.  I was shocked and amazed when Jean Cretien (our former prime
minister) decided to go with the voice of sanity and not back the US in
its illegal war but asside from that and a few noises once in a while
we basically toe the line and do as we are told. Just this week
Condoleeza Rice told us to settle down over the softwood thing. Yeah we
will Condi.  It's only 5 billion dollars. Play nice eh? LOL

Joe

Michael Redler wrote:

  
  
  The US as a whole is showing symptoms of
fascism. If I, as you say, "group all Americans as one", please prove
me wrong and resist the simple perception of our culture which hides
our dark little secrets and makes hypocrites out of our government each
time they go to preach democracy to another sovereign nation. Our
government needs to "play nice with others" and work toward being a
participant in a World community instead of further construction of
it's empire.
   
  Mike
  
  Derick Giorchino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  






You get not
too much of an argument from me but. It seems you are intent on
grouping all Americans as one.
 I also have
more than one citizenship. But I went to war for this country and would
do it over, for the right reasons, when I came to America
many years ago it was the envy of the world. And I feel it still would
be. If not for the government and corporate B.S. It disgusts me, but I
don’t include myself as part of that. All I can do is try in my own way
to change things for the better. If not for me but maybe my kids and
grand kids. Not that I think it will ever be as it was. But surly it
could stand just a tad of improvement.
 



From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Michael Redler
Sent: Tuesday,
October 25, 2005 7:35 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re:
[Biofuel] Scientific method- Easy Keith!

 






OK, you have my
attention.



 


Derick wrote:
"Not all Americans are lazy stupid or helpless."


 


As an American, I'd like to
think that this is true. In fact, I don't think that Americans are more
lazy than any other country or culture. Despite being the most obese
country in the world, we find ourselves in the workplace at least as
many hours as any other country in the world.


 


Joe wrote: "This explains the
typical american arrogance that drips from his rhetoric and which
irritates you so well."


 


There are expectations by
Americans that other countries and cultures recognize us as somehow
superior. If anyone doubts this, here is a little experiment: Take
comments so commonly heard in political speeches as well as at backyard
barbecues (i.e. "We are the greatest country in the world") and apply
it to Germany
(for example). In fact, when an American president (especially our
current president) makes a speech and it's translated into German
and "The United States" is replaced with "Germany", I would argue
that many Americans would be shocked that ANY head of state would make
such a speech. This is the American double standard which I like to
call a kind of pseudo-mutuality since there are still a few countries
who are politically and culturally aligned with this image. 


 


There is something terribly
wrong with our culture and it's just outside the view of most citizens.
Calling Americans "lazy" though, is inaccurate and minimizes our long
list of troubles.


 


This is what I mean by "list".
You try to connect the dots.


 


1.) "We" have more homicides
in our major cities than casualties in war (irrespective of the
circumstances in that war).


 


2.) "We" have a bizarre view
of leadership and fairness by virtue of the fact that the president
(irrespective of which president) is pledged allegiance even when he
(not "she" -yet) takes action which adversely effects the majority of
citizens. At the same time, Americans are known for supporting the
"underdog" and down trodden - almost as if to perpetuate and preserve
this demographic.


 


3.) "We" struggle to have a
standard of K-12 education that matches that of other developed
countries while placing huge emphasis on "faith" and mixed
interpretations of morality.


 


4.) Half of the citizens in
the United States
do not support a document which prevented dictatorships and provided
the means for citizens to prosper for the last two and a half
centuries. At the same time, the same proportion of citizens don't show
up to vote for (arguably) the most powerful political position in the
free world.


 


htt

Re: [Biofuel] Grass for fuel

2005-10-27 Thread MH


> Jason and Katie wrote: 
> having read this article, i seem to be missing some of the math...
> this miscanthus is a rhizome, correct? and like other rhizomes (i.e.
> strawberries) there is a good sized chunk of sugars and other carbon based
> items stored in the root/stem system, also correct? so that would imply that
> it STORES carbon and does not reintroduce all of it when burned, because it
> stays in the field as the "jump start" for the next growing season. am i
> correct in this extrapolation?


 It sounds that way to me and the math I wondered
 about is tonnage or tons compared to tonnes. 
 The 25 ton/acre or 60 tonnes/hectare from
 Giant Miscanthus compared to corn grain and
 corn stover yields sounds pretty good if I look
 only at the high end of the "10-30 tons per acre
 dry weight each year".  This makes me wonder about
 the dry ton yield per acre for cellulosic ethanol
 compared to switchgrass or corn or sugar cane. 

 "Biofuels and Agriculture A Factsheet for Farmers"
 4 page, 584k PDF ftp://bioenergy.ornl.gov/pub/pdfs/farmerfactsheet.pdf 
  - A bushel of corn (56 lb or 25 kg) yields
about 2.5 US gallons (9.5 liters) of ethanol
 - A ton (2000 lb or 980 kg) of corn stover will yield
about 80-90 US gallons (300-340 liters) of ethanol,
 - A ton of switchgrass will yield
in the range 75-100 US gallons (285-380 liters) 

 "Biofuels from Switchgrass: Greener Energy Pastures"
 http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/switgrs.html
 "Bransby's 6-year average, 11.5 tons a year,
 translates into about 1,150 gallons of ethanol per acre."

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Re: [Biofuel] lye supply

2005-10-27 Thread Doug Foskey


This sounds like an outright lye!!

regards Doug


On Thursday 27 October 2005 3:17, Jason and Katie wrote:
> my name is now officially "people"
>
>   Hi all, I cleared this with Keith, so please be advised it is NOT an ad.

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Re: [Biofuel] A new website

2005-10-27 Thread Doug Foskey


Rafal,
 congratulations on being part of the Samba team! I am constantly amazed how 
many Biodiesel list members are involved with Open Source software.

 A comment to others on Linux: there is now a move by the major Linux 
developers to standardise the way that Linux is seen by programs, so the old 
issues of differing packages for different flavours of Linux will then be a 
thing of the past. The common Linux desktop is ever closer.

regards Doug


On Thursday 27 October 2005 9:20, Rafal Szczesniak wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 26, 2005 at 03:08:26PM -0600, Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> > Unfortunately, there are too many specialized engineering software
> > packages that I use every day that can only operate under windows
> > (often they are even picky about the version of windows) for me to
> > consider Linux.
>
> Yes, I'm in fortunate position of being a programmer and network
> engineer. As for now it is a great environment for people of this
> profession. I must agree though, engineers using CAD software (of various
> fields) still have a hard time when trying to switch to free unix-like
> systems. It just needs a bit more time, like many new things.
>
> > If it was just web browsing, spreadsheets, word
> > processing, and the like, I'd get rid of windows in a heartbeat.  I've
> > already dumped IE and outlook.
>
> Indeed. You can already switch to safer and open replacements of web
> browser and mail reader as well as office suite (especially with
> just-released OpenOffice 2.0). Isn't it great ? There's a choice finally
> for average user.
>
> > I want Google or Mozilla to come out with an operating system.
>
> No need to. Just wait for unix desktop environments to become mature
> enough to be widely usable.

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Re: [Biofuel] lye supply

2005-10-27 Thread Jason and Katie




my name is now officially "people"
Hi 
  all, I cleared this with Keith, so please be advised it is NOT an 
  ad.Our cooperative here just made arrangements for continuing, large 
  scale NaOH delivery from a large chemical supply company. As an effort to 
  share this with the community, we're prepared to offer it to homebrewers for 
  $2 a pound plus shipping (and shipping is apparently about $6 most of the 
  time). You might be able to find it cheaper locally, and if so I applaud you 
  and please disregard this message. Shipping is the real killer. If you're 
  interested, toss me an email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] and 
  we'll go from there. I'm not sure yet whether it's flake or pellet, but I'll 
  assume that it's flake since it's low-cost and bulk.If enough people 
  are interested, we'll put up a website or something similar, maybe run it 
  through ebay or something for security.~Thanks!~
  

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Re: [Biofuel] Testing for Purity of KOH

2005-10-27 Thread Appal Energy


Rob,

 > Is this a good way to determine the purity?

It's a good way to determine a baseline for your 50# bag. For all 
practical intents and purposes, that's what you want.

See  http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#stockmeth

and

See  http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#poor

before you begin for some ideas that could help you zero things in a bit.

Todd Swearingen


>This weekend I will be attempting to use KOH instead of Lye. I got a deal on
>a 50 lb bag of KOH but I don't know what the purity is. I'm not sure how to
>titrate to determine the purity so here is what I am going to try.
>
>I'll make 3 batches, Batch 1 I will assume 99% pure and use 4.9 grams, batch
>2 I will assume 92% pure and use 5.3 grams and batch 3 I will assume 85%
>purity and use 5.8 grams. I will be using new oil and see which batch turns
>out good and passes the shake test.
>  Is this a good way to determine the purity?
>
>Any help is appreciated here.
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>  
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Starting at Square One

2005-10-27 Thread Evergreen Solutions


exactly picture what you're looking at, since I replaced the waterpump
and all related belts.

I personally retrofitted my own bracket mount anyway, because the one that was there was WAY bigger than necessary.

Also, when I bought a new belt (mine fell off sometime and no, no
indicator light came on) it was the wrong one, so I went back and
bought another. It wasn't right either, BUT it was exactly the right
tension for the alternator in the full DOWN position, thus eliminating
the tensioner adjustment on the mount.

I sold it to a guy who had a 81 diesel rabbit, mine was gas, and ALMOST
offered a partial trade, his motor was still churning 47 mpg. But,
alas, his inspection was running out that month and the body was mostly
rusted into oblivion. 81 scares me anyway, fuel lines and 175k miles of
dino-d.

Good story though, haha.

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[Biofuel] lye supply

2005-10-27 Thread Evergreen Solutions



Our cooperative here just made arrangements for continuing, large scale
NaOH delivery from a large chemical supply company. As an effort to
share this with the community, we're prepared to offer it to
homebrewers for $2 a pound plus shipping (and shipping is apparently
about $6 most of the time). You might be able to find it cheaper
locally, and if so I applaud you and please disregard this message.
Shipping is the real killer. If you're interested, toss me an email:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and we'll go from there. I'm not sure yet
whether it's flake or pellet, but I'll assume that it's flake since
it's low-cost and bulk.

If enough people are interested, we'll put up a website or something
similar, maybe run it through ebay or something for security.

~Thanks!~

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[Biofuel] Testing for Purity of KOH

2005-10-27 Thread Rob Rogers


This weekend I will be attempting to use KOH instead of Lye. I got a deal on
a 50 lb bag of KOH but I don't know what the purity is. I'm not sure how to
titrate to determine the purity so here is what I am going to try.

I'll make 3 batches, Batch 1 I will assume 99% pure and use 4.9 grams, batch
2 I will assume 92% pure and use 5.3 grams and batch 3 I will assume 85%
purity and use 5.8 grams. I will be using new oil and see which batch turns
out good and passes the shake test.
  Is this a good way to determine the purity?

Any help is appreciated here.



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Re: [Biofuel] Measuring tools..XX.

2005-10-27 Thread Buck Williams




>From: "Buck Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Measuring tools..XX.
>Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 19:30:51 -0700
>
>you cann do coleparmer, or vanwater and  rogersss, catalongs are easy,, or 
>search vwr supply, buck
>
>
>>From: Michael Luich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>Subject: [Biofuel] Measuring tools...
>>Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:33:28 -0400
>>
>>Any one have any idea's where i can go to look for measuring devices in 
>>new
>>england.
>>
>>I'd rather not get beaker etc on line.
>>
>>I'm thinking craft stores but it hasn't worked out so well so far.
>>
>>Mike Luich
>
>
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>>
>
>_
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>
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Still looking for a cheap TEFC motor

2005-10-27 Thread Ken Dunn


Keith said:
> Frankly, Ken, I'm not that interested in whether it could or not.
> Improvise, sure, go ahead, best of good luck and all, but motors are
> common enough aren't they? Why not just use a motor?

Well,  while motors are common enough buying the motor off the shelf
instead of the pump will cost me atleast twice as much.

>On the other
> hand if you get it to work that's great. Whatever, I can't see why
> you think I might want to bet on it. You asked if it's TEFC, I told
> you it is and pointed you to some information on its pumping limits,
> and so?

Absolutely!  I don't want to bet on it.  That's why I'm asking
questions.  I'm trying to raise a family and do the right things.  $50
is not much on the grand scale but $50 "here or there" is all together
different.  And, as I've mentioned in the past, everything that I'm
doing, I want to be able help others with.  That pump at Harbor
Freight is something that seems readily available at an affordable
price.  The TEFC motor (again, off the shelf) is not quite as
affordable.  I'm here to tell you, though, if I can save myself, a
friend or someone else who may be following the thread 50 bucks, I'm
gonna do it.  In as globally friendly manner as possible, of course.

I'll more than likely buy the motor that I found but, test the
improvised motor taken from the pump, when I can afford it, later.

Take care,
Ken

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Re: [Biofuel] Measuring tools..XX.

2005-10-27 Thread Buck Williams


search vwr supply, buck


>From: Michael Luich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: [Biofuel] Measuring tools...
>Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:33:28 -0400
>
>Any one have any idea's where i can go to look for measuring devices in new
>england.
>
>I'd rather not get beaker etc on line.
>
>I'm thinking craft stores but it hasn't worked out so well so far.
>
>Mike Luich


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Re: [Biofuel] Still looking for a cheap TEFC motor

2005-10-27 Thread Derick Giorchino


There is a router speed controller in harbor freight when it on sale that is
most of the time it is inexpensive and works quite well I have used it with
a small high speed motor from a 110v wench that I luvjoyed to a week
hydraulic pump.  I found that the motor was so fast it wanted to spit out
the luvjoy the speed reducer worked well to help. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ken Dunn
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 9:59 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Still looking for a cheap TEFC motor

I had a moment of clarity and called a local electric motor repair
shop.  It would seem that they might have something that someone
decided not to pay to bill for.  It would also seem that they might be
willing to move it cheap to recoup expenses.  Lo and behold, they have
a 1/2 hp TEFC motor with a weak low speed (1200 +- RPM) but a strong
high speed (1720+- RPM).  The price is good, the best I've found.  Is
this thing going to be total overkill for a 55 gallon stir processor,
though?

Take care,
Ken

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Re: [Biofuel] A new website

2005-10-27 Thread Jeromie Reeves




>>If it was just web browsing, spreadsheets, word
>>processing, and the like, I'd get rid of windows in a heartbeat.  I've
>>already dumped IE and outlook.
>>
>>
>
>Indeed. You can already switch to safer and open replacements of web browser
>and mail reader as well as office suite (especially with just-released
>OpenOffice 2.0). Isn't it great ? There's a choice finally for average
>user.
>  
>
This choice exists on Windows to. The core windows OS can be very stable 
(just needs configured correctly, not hard
just takes more then a average Joe). I personally use OO 2.0, Firefox, 
and Thunderbird (as does my wife) over IE
except in those very rare cases where a site is IE only. Avast is hands 
down the best Windows based AV there is and
it is free (for home use) too.

>  
>
>>I want Google or Mozilla to come out with an operating system.
>>
>>
>
>No need to. Just wait for unix desktop environments to become mature
>enough to be widely usable.
>  
>
Define mature enough? I think its more the add on software that needs to 
mature more then the OS and GUI environment.
One of the issues I find with OSS is there are to many options. Since 
there is not this one app for all monolithic force in
OSS, how do you get people to try something new, even if it would work 
very well for them? The Linux Live CD's
help alot.

>
>  
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Still looking for a cheap TEFC motor

2005-10-27 Thread Keith Addison

>On 10/26/05, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >Totally Enclosed Fan Cooled - TEFC.  If you follow link on my original
> > >post, the pump displayed has a motor attached to looks generally like
> > >a TEFC motor.  I don't know that it is though.
> >
> > Yes it is. More info here:
> >
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor10.html#pumpcap
> > Journey to Forever 90-litre processor
>
>Keith,
>
>Care to wager on whether the pump motor could be converted for use in
>my stir process?

Frankly, Ken, I'm not that interested in whether it could or not. 
Improvise, sure, go ahead, best of good luck and all, but motors are 
common enough aren't they? Why not just use a motor? On the other 
hand if you get it to work that's great. Whatever, I can't see why 
you think I might want to bet on it. You asked if it's TEFC, I told 
you it is and pointed you to some information on its pumping limits, 
and so?

Best

Keith

>Take care,
>Ken

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Re: [Biofuel] Still looking for a cheap TEFC motor

2005-10-27 Thread Derick Giorchino


Sorry I mean winch.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of bob allen
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 5:54 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Still looking for a cheap TEFC motor

Derick Giorchino wrote:

  from a 110v wench / winch


   whoopee, she sounds like fun.




-- 
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] Scientific method- Easy Keith!