[Biofuel] Biofuel International seminar In BRASIL :Food Vs Fuel.

[pan ruti]

 I have participated 6 -8 July very well organized seminar on the distributed energy system and biofuel .The conference proceeding are available in Portuguese language in the following links..  http://www.nipeunicamp.org.br/agrener2006/tematicas.htmMostly the developed world has participated , mainly from Europe also from south and Central America , Venezuela, Cuba.Even though it is possible the less developed country can produce the bio ethanol , half the price , some country in the the Europe is making this from wheat and beet sugar.The same is also the case for the BioD, making fuel from food soya beans and canola   The true sustainable small scale biofuel is an experimental stages for the Amazonian
 areas. There is found to be lack of not only biofuel , but also the food.The rich place need an integrated food , feed and biofuel. Any of the conventional electrical system is found to be not sustainable to the areas. Biomass energy can be the system appropriate to this areas.The Brazilian EMBRAPA, the agroresearch center has come up using novel , simple pyrolysis of vegetable oils to make biofuel and has shown to be more appropriate to this areas. If any in remote rural area like Amazonian rain forest is from our Biofuel list members , it is possible we can come outall together to make some new biofuel , which need to be very simple and practical , as the aces to this place are very difficult and the value of the fuel are 10 time more normal price and yet not available.  I expect help
 from our list members from Malaysia and other remote place.sd  Pannirselvam P.V  www.gpechp.cjb.net   
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Re: [Biofuel] Wood ash lye - was Re: New Biodiesel Catalyst and process

[pan ruti]

 Ola, Keith  Here Brazilian agricultural research org has successfully finished a simple pyrolysis of vegetable oil to be implemented in rural Amazonian areas , which involves , simple heating of the vegetable oil using wood  then condensing the gas , obtaining biofuel just like BioD.The tractor has been showed to be running without any problems. Thus thermal pyrolysis is an cracking process, which Manick is doing for wood to make ethanol , the process is used to make reusable sugar based catalysts. Low temperature pyrolysis is what happend to the cooked and the used oil .I am referring not the drastic pyrolysis and i hope , now you understand what I mean by pretreatment process just like
 the micro wave oven can give the best results and simplify the process Thanking you sd Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ola PannirOla, Keith , Manick  and all.   Even though  , the  debate , doughts  go on for the long time here about this topic  , it is not yet clear to me about  the real value of  obtaining the new  catalyst  from ash.And I suppose also that the same  for some of  our list members too .As Manick has pointed out that the potassium carbonate is the  major one in ash ,It varies quite widely. There's usually more calcium than potassium.It will be interesting some one here bringing the information about the  average chemical
 composition of the ash.As I understand that the carbonate can be also act as the  catalyst,That's why I said it might not be a problem: "Trouble is the content of wood ash varies widely. Another problem is that the KOH is mixed with potassium carbonate, and some sodium too. Which may not be as big a problem as it sounds."may be  the combination of the several non metallic  Na, K, Ca , Silica can be  more  powerful  catalyst too, thus making the explanation to the  good result's  reported , even the reaction going under room temperature. How ever reproducing the  result with the use of the ash is another problem too  to get the results reproduced.It should be okay if you calibrate it each time against standard NaOH or standard KOH, so you can see how much to use.If it works, there's certainly an advantage in not having to buy catalyst and getting it instead from a readily
 available sustainable source that you can provide for yourself.  As used WVO  has been already cracked ,  can be  also another path to make the  low temperature catalyst , any heating the oil to remove the water is an pretreatment needed, thus optimization of this heating process , like  the very slight pyrolysis  shown to be effective to crack  and separate out the glycerin with very little loss , yet to be achieved in practice .I'm not sure what you mean. How do you use pyrolysis this way?Thus  the combined  KOH making from ash , the pretreatment of the soft pyrolysis by heating the oil  and  light cracking  to separate out glycerin  as pretreatment, then the low temperature catalysis  can be very promising new root  with new low cost catalyst , with out need for  reusable  costlier catalyst. This root can be well easily home made  by any poor man
 too.We're doing all that except the cracking, which I don't understand.No need for methoxy combination of alcohol  with catalysts.That's where you lose me.Thus the data's  available to  all of us show that such simple solutions to the complex problems  may be possible.Simple solutions are certainly possible.   Let all of  us  share  our views. If simple method can work  , we may end up the war based on non renewable , as the people can make the bio fuel as simple as to make the soap , or salt , with out the need for big investments and machines , but involving the art as well as social technology based on  our collaborative  work  , with no need for huge machine and instrumentation , thus we all can transfer this process to all the place where there is real need .This new process can be reality  , if all our list sharing capacity very  
 high.I think it IS a reality, without a new process. More experimental result's are needed  using slaked lime converting the  carbonates into more powerful , practical  catalyst for rural areas.It might not be necessary if the combination of KOH and potassium carbonate found in wood ash is found to work effectively.Best wishesKeithThus the method  pointed out by Manick  can prove to more useful to render to come over practical catalyst . Some conclusions are needed on this very long new catalyst thread of very important topics.Some patents are available.we need to bring here all the patents  some about carbonate too Will this can be effective or not .Expect  good results in this new process and new catalytic root.SDPannirselvam.Manick Harris
 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Hello Keith,all,The stuff you describe has a lot of potassium carbonate which must be converted to potassium hydroxide to make soap from veg oils. This can be done by boiling with slaked lime. You will get liquid soap. Get solid soap by washing this a few times 

Re: [Biofuel] Wood ash lye - was Re: New Biodiesel Catalyst and process

[pan ruti]

Ola,Keith , Manick and all. Even though , the debate , doughts go on for the long time here about this topic , it is not yet clear to me about the real value of obtaining the new catalyst from ash.And I suppose also that the same for some of our list members too .As Manick has pointed out that the potassium carbonate is the major one in ash ,It will be interesting some one here bringing the information about the average chemical composition of the ash.As I understand that the carbonate can be also act as the catalyst, may be the combination of the several non metallic Na, K, Ca , Silica can be more powerful catalyst too, thus
 making the explanation to the good result's reported , even the reaction going under room temperature. How ever reproducing the result with the use of the ash is another problem too to get the results reproduced. As used WVO has been already cracked , can be also another path to make the low temperature catalyst , any heating the oil to remove the water is an pretreatment needed, thus optimization of this heating process , like the very slight pyrolysis shown to be effective to crack and separate out the glycerin with very little loss , yet to be achieved in practice . Thus the combined KOH making from ash , the pretreatment of the soft pyrolysis by heating the oil and light cracking to separate out glycerin as pretreatment, then the low temperature catalysis can be very promising new root with new low
 cost catalyst , with out need for reusable costlier catalyst. This root can be well easily home made by any poor man too. No need for methoxy combination of alcohol with catalysts. Thus the data's available to all of us show that such simple solutions to the complex problems may be possible. Let all of us share our views. If simple method can work , we may end up the war based on non renewable , as the people can make the bio fuel as simple as to make the soap , or salt , with out the need for big investments and machines , but involving the art as well as social technology based on our collaborative work , with no need for huge machine and instrumentation , thus we all can transfer this process to all the place where there is real need .This new process can be reality , if all our list sharing capacity very
  high. More experimental result's are needed using slaked lime converting the carbonates into more powerful , practical catalyst for rural areas.Thus the method pointed out by Manick can prove to more useful to render to come over practical catalyst .Some conclusions are needed on this very long new catalyst thread of very important topics.Some patents are available.we need to bring here all the patents some about carbonate too Will this can be effective or not .Expect good results in this new process and new catalytic root. SDPannirselvam.Manick Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Keith,all,  The stuff you describe has a lot of potassium carbonate
 which must be converted to potassium hydroxide to make soap from veg oils. This can be done by boiling with slaked lime. You will get liquid soap. Get solid soap by washing this a few times with salt solution. I did not carry out this reaction but my dad did during WW2 when we were under Japanese regime here in Malaysia. He was running a soap factory in Buntong, Ipoh and the soap was first distributed to residents from the town field opposite St.Michael's School as any Ipohite will testify. Although I was much younger I can vouch thatit was indeed hard soap like any other which they were able to cut from a block by using detachable boxes with slits and steel wires. May my good dad RIP.  manickhKeith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  From another list, four years ago:Okay, try
 this:Find some used drums or other containers,  spend a day running around seeing how much used cooking grease you can obtain for free from resatraunts. Once you get home with the stuff, strain it through a couple thicknesses of old bath towells. Then add 2 cups LYE (leached from wood ashes),  1 pint alcohol (moonshine etc.) to each 5 gallons, stir well. Allow to set over night to settle, then siphon the liquid off, leaving the thick glycerin in the bottom of the container.This stuff makes a perfect substitute for DEISEL FUEL (I've run one of my tractors on it for a decade!),  if you'll add some kerosene deodorizer, it works  great in lamps  kerosene heaters as
 well!LOL!The person who sent it to me disagreed and referred him to JtF, but the guy with the undead tractor told him it was disinformation.Anyway, I guess that's the margin for screwing it up with experimental wood ash lye catalyst, it'll take at least ten years not to kill your tractor yet. Even a PDi should be okay for the legendary dozens of miles. Always look on the bright side of life, ta-dum.This is what Mother Earth News said long ago when it was still Mother Earth News:"Punch drain holes in the bottom of a five-gallon can, place a five-inch layer of straw inside, fill the container with 

Re: [Biofuel] More Gardening News - micro ley farming

[pan ruti]

Ola ,Keith As Brazil is one of the leading exporter of meat and chicken , this ley farming information bring the old , the new all available information in one place is best done. Animalanimal wastesmicrloagaefish and prawn organic gardening using integrated reuse of water is our system modeling work for small scale farmer under our study for comunity developments.In this context I find very important the Ley system for sutainable food, feed, fertilzer and fuel. This can more sustainable the actual production system .Thanking youPannirselvam Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is about using ley farming rotational grazing techniques
 on micro-farms. An overview so far.Ley farming is the lost half of organic growing. It was used alongside scientific composting in an integrated system developed by Friend Sykes, Newman Turner and others with Sir Albert Howard, as well as George Stapledon, in the 1930s to 50s. These were the pioneers of organic growing. Ley farming was based on previous work a hundred years ago by Robert Elliot of Clifton Park ("The Clifton Park System of Farming", see the Small Farms Library at Journey to Forever).In the 60s, after the pioneers died, organic farming was shunted aside by the chemical interests and industrialised farming, and ley farming was forgotten. The most important texts on it are in our Small Farms Library, with more coming, and this has led to a recent revival in ley farming."Sow a piece of land with a good pasture mixture and then divide it in two with a fence. Graze one half heavily and
 repeatedly with cattle, mow the other half as necessary and leave the mowings there in place to decay back into the soil. On the grazed half, you've removed the crop (several times) and taken away a large yield of milk and beef. On the other half you've removed nothing. Plough up both halves and plant a grain crop, or any crop. Which half has the bigger and better yield? The grazed half, by far. "Ley Farming" explains why "grass is the most important crop" and how to manage grass leys. Leys are temporary pastures in a rotation, and provide more than enough fertility for the succeeding crops: working together, grass and grazing animals turn the land into a huge living compost pile."The rotating grassland produces dairy products and beef or mutton, and the effect of the cow manure on the grass and the soil builds up enough soil fertility to grow succeeding crops for three or four years. After usually three years the
 enriched grass turf is disced into the land to fertilise the grain and other crops to follow, three or four years later that field goes back under grass with cattle or sheep. It's a sustainable, largely self-sufficient organic system, with low input, high output and high quality produce. Here's more about it:http://snipurl.com/q4xqRe: [Biofuel] seeding a forage pastureHere's the ley farming section at the Small Farms Library:http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#leySmall Farms Library - Ley FarmingIMO ley farming is THE sustainable farming system, it's complete, and it's very flexible. List member Andres Yver, working at his new ley farm in Argentina, described it as the cheap and easy way of farming.I started working on this 23 years ago, and soon came to focus on small-farm applications. I said in my previous post in this occasional thread, "About the best the small-scale folks
 can do is to follow the traditional Chinese-style farming methods of the East. It's basically gardening more than farming, they tend to each individual plant, there's no mass-production, production rates are very high and it's sustainable. It's one weakness perhaps is in gearing animals to the land. That's what we're doing here, integrated Chinese-style small-scale farming using organic methods and livestock grazing systems. It fits very well with our work with biofuels and energy, a model for sustainable food and fuel farms of the future."And:"We have to deal with city farmers on one hand, gardeners basically, often with very little or no land, and on the other hand with farmers, who go about things in a quite different way, and there's not very much common ground between the two. Or rather there's a no-man's-land, at the peripheries of the cities and towns where rising land values break up the farms into
 small parcels awaiting development, where you find people like smallholders and homesteaders, or folks with 600 sq meters of land like us, or 300 sq yards of back garden like you Robert."Nobody pays any attention to these people but they grow a large amount of food, maybe as much as the city farmers do (15%+ of the world's supply). Gardening techniques don't always suit them very well and neither do farming techniques. For instance, try to find some half-useful information on how to grow wheat in a 20-metre raised bed. You can't even find a sowing rate that isn't geared to large fields and big machines, there's nothing that takes account of the extra care you can take with 

Re: [Biofuel] jelly and jellybiofuel question

[pan ruti]

Very good project , surely this can work too, as gypsym is better on rather than lime  But need experimentar workThanking yousdPannirselvamMichael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My (future) brother-in-law and I were cleaning his garage and came a cross A LOT of warped dry wall.To my knowledge, dry wall is composed mostly of gypsum, a very soft mineral
 composed of calcium sulfate dihydrate, with the chemical formula CaSO4�2H2O (thank you Wikipedia). We already discussed calcium acetate (egg shells) mixed with vinegar to create a kind of jelly to whichethanol can be added.http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg53392.htmlSohow about ground-up dry wall and vinegar?Mike___Biofuel mailing
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Re: [Biofuel] distilling fuel/reactant ethanol

[pan ruti]

 Helow Paul  The non renewable energy sector with its good marketing system make people not think of this noval Biofuel system .Here we are very sucessful to make the direct burning of caster oil and alcohol for cooking.Very cheap stoves can be used for doing the cooking , not having smoke. Better than kerosene.The rural energy is the root cause of the underdevelopments. Several tones of fruits of bad quality, here to be estimated to be more than 40 porcent of the fruits expoted , are all wasted, can be very easily fermented and the extraction process without distillation can be done any rural people , no chemicals needed, leading to vable biofuel . Together with petrol pump , this mixture of etanol castor can be sold , as an good additivos for IC engines . Wishing a good sucessPaul S Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote: After thinking about this and searching the archives...Anyone actually doing this?What is the minimun amount of castor oil per volume of water/ethanolsolution to be effective?Are there any applications where the castor/ethanol solution could beburned directly?  i.e. in an diesel/gasoline(RUG) engine, heater, etc.mixed with RUG, BD?Will the castor/ethanol mix with RUG, since it has very low water? Will it mix well with diesel or biodieselthinking out loud.On 4/23/06, Jan Warnqvist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hello Jason and Kate, the reason for this is simple. The castor oil (unlike most other vegetable oils) is ethanol soluble. This means that most other oils will not do the trick. With best regards Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC
 AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: "Jason  Katie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To:  Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 6:31 AM Subject: [Biofuel] distilling fuel/reactant ethanol  i pulled a paper from the library describing separating ethanol from water  using castor oil. can this be done using any kind of oil, or are their  certain characteristics of the oil not described in the paper?   http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/eth_separate.html--Thanks,PCHe's the kind of a guy who lights up a room just by flicking a switchWe don't know a millionth of one percent about anything. - Thomas A Edison___Biofuel mailing
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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol without distillation

[pan ruti]

I also pulled paper from internet using googleArticle  Ethanol production by extractive fermentation  M. Minier, G. Goma *Départment de Génie Biochimique et Alimentaire, ERA-CNRS No. 879. INSA, Avenue de Rangueil, F-31077 Toulouse Cédex, France  *Correspondence to G. Goma, Départment de Génie Biochimique et Alimentaire, ERA-CNRS No. 879. INSA, Avenue de Rangueil, F-31077 Toulouse Cédex, France  setDOI("ADOI=10.1002/bit.260240710")Abstract   
   The ideal method to produce a terminal metabolite inhibitor of cell growth and production is to remove and recover it from the fermenting broth as it formed. Extractive fermentation is achieved in the case of ethanol production by coupling both fermentation and liquid-liquid extraction, The solvent of extraction is 1-dodecanol (or a mixture 1-dedecanol, 1-tetradecanol); study of the inhibitory effect of primary aliphatic alcohols of different chain lengths shows that no growth is observed in the presence of alcohols which have between 2 and 12 carbons. This effect is suppressed when the carbon number is 12 or higher. A new reactor has been used-1 pulsed packed column. Pulsation is performed pneumatically. Porous material used as a package adsorbs the cells. The fermentation broth is pulsed in order to (1) increase the interfacial area between the aqueous phase and the dodecanol, (2) decrease gas holdup. Alcoholic fermentation, performed at 35°C on
 glucose syrup, permits the total utilization of glucose solution of 409 g/L with a yeast which cannot-in classical process- completely use solutions with 200 g/L of glucose. The feasibility of a new method of fermentation coupling both liquid-liquid extraction and fermentation is demonstrated. Extension of this method is possible to any microbial production inhibited by its metabolite excretion.  The octanol from castor can be better one than Castor oil. Pure Castor oil canbe good one. The pulsing fase seperation can help the seperation very fast. In Canada the extractive fermentation has been shown to be very sucessful.For small scale we need still simplify this process.This very usful information published in JTF can end the distillation process and hence the need for Bioler and its high pressure pump. yet
 more information is needed, as this process can give pure ethanol, almost all the information is kept as industrial top secret or sold .Jason go ahead practical experiments and I am sure you are in right direction and we , small research group from Brazil wish this process a big sucess .If any one from the list has used this process .Let us know sd  PannirselvamJason  Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  i pulled a paper from the library describing separating ethanol from water using castor oil. can this be done using any kind of oil, or are their certain characteristics of the oil not described in the paper?http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/eth_separate.html
 ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol without distillation

[pan ruti]

I also pulled paper from internet using googleArticle  Ethanol production by extractive fermentation  M. Minier, G. Goma *Départment de Génie Biochimique et Alimentaire, ERA-CNRS No. 879. INSA, Avenue de Rangueil, F-31077 Toulouse Cédex, France  *Correspondence to G. Goma, Départment de Génie Biochimique et Alimentaire, ERA-CNRS No. 879. INSA, Avenue de Rangueil, F-31077 Toulouse Cédex, France  setDOI("ADOI=10.1002/bit.260240710")Abstract   
   The ideal method to produce a terminal metabolite inhibitor of cell growth and production is to remove and recover it from the fermenting broth as it formed. Extractive fermentation is achieved in the case of ethanol production by coupling both fermentation and liquid-liquid extraction, The solvent of extraction is 1-dodecanol (or a mixture 1-dedecanol, 1-tetradecanol); study of the inhibitory effect of primary aliphatic alcohols of different chain lengths shows that no growth is observed in the presence of alcohols which have between 2 and 12 carbons. This effect is suppressed when the carbon number is 12 or higher. A new reactor has been used-1 pulsed packed column. Pulsation is performed pneumatically. Porous material used as a package adsorbs the cells. The fermentation broth is pulsed in order to (1) increase the interfacial area between the aqueous phase and the dodecanol, (2) decrease gas holdup. Alcoholic fermentation, performed at 35°C on
 glucose syrup, permits the total utilization of glucose solution of 409 g/L with a yeast which cannot-in classical process- completely use solutions with 200 g/L of glucose. The feasibility of a new method of fermentation coupling both liquid-liquid extraction and fermentation is demonstrated. Extension of this method is possible to any microbial production inhibited by its metabolite excretion.  The octanol from castor can be better one than Castor oil. Pure Castor oil canbe good one. The pulsing fase seperation can help the seperation very fast. In Canada the extractive fermentation has been shown to be very sucessful.For small scale we need still simplify this process.This very usful information published in JTF can end the distillation process and hence the need for Bioler and its high pressure pump. yet
 more information is needed, as this process can give pure ethanol, almost all the information is kept as industrial top secret or sold .Jason go ahead practical experiments and I am sure you are in right direction and we , small research group from Brazil wish this process a big sucess .If any one from the list has used this process .Let us know sd  PannirselvamJason  Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  i pulled a paper from the library describing separating ethanol from water using castor oil. can this be done using any kind of oil, or are their certain characteristics of the oil not described in the paper?http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/eth_separate.html
 ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
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Re: [Biofuel] sustainable biodiesel from Casto : Big is not beautiful, small is more sustainable

[pan ruti]

 Dear Bob and Keith I am very sorry for the late reply , not able to be as quick as KEITHI interpreted this to mean that the crushed seeds are subjected to the alkali catalyst/methanol hence the seed cake is exposed to the reaction.  Here in Brazil nobody like to use Methanol , yes you are correct that the crushed seed is used as feed stock.The mixture of this two methanol and ethanol can be better, but the process for the big scale use methanol , and there is also effort to make the carbohydrate to make ethanol in future.sdPannirselvam bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   By using one step  simultaneous  extraction and esterification , the
 patented process use crushed seeds  to make four products , the BioD , the glycerol , the protein, carbohydrate that seem to deintoxicated for animal feed  is now being   scaled up to big pilot plant.I interpreted this to mean that the crushed seeds are subjected to the alkali catalyst/methanol hence the seedcake is exposed to the reaction.   I've seen papers other papers discuss simultaneous extraction/reaction with soya bean flakes. the problem was that much more methanol is need to extract the oil during the processing into biodiesel, partly due to the moisture content of the beans.Keith Addison wrote: Ricin is a protein which would be denatured by the reaction conditions.  Denaturation just means changing the shape of the protein, thus inactivating it.   Same as hard boiling an egg more or less.  Thanks Bob. But I think the ricin
 doesn't get into the oil, it's in  the husk, and thus in the seedcake.  I see James Duke says: "Although it is highly toxic due to the ricin,  a method of detoxicating the meal has now been found, so that it can  safely be fed to livestock." Ricinus communis, "Handbook of Energy Crops", James A. Duke, 1983 http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/duke_energy/Ricinus_communis.html  Maybe they just hard-boil the seedcake.Re the high viscosity:Brazil has 20 years of good research reports about castor oil use as biofuel , which we have the acess .One main problem with castor oil BioD is the viscosity that can be easily solved. That seems to be the main problem. Castor oil is 100 times more viscous than petro-diesel. Castor oil biodiesel is less viscous
 than the straight oil, but several references say it is still higher than the national standards specification limits. If there is an easy way to make it less viscous or to solve the problem that would be valuable to know. Do you have any further information on this? This is quite interesting on how castor oil works as a lubricant and why it's different to other oils: http://www.georgiacombat.com/CASTOR_OIL.htm CASTOR OIL  Castor oil has good lubricity, I wonder if castor oil biodiesel have  better lubricity than others. Maybe that could offset the viscosity  problem. More and more places are following the French and specifying  biodiesel as a lubrication additive in LS diesel fuel. If it had  better lubricity you'd need to use less, and the high
 viscosity  wouldn't matter at such a low percentage. Which is where I grind to a  halt because the difference between lubricity and viscosity isn't  that clear, or at least not to me, especially when you add high  temperatures. Anyone know better?  Best  Keith  ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org  Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html  Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/-- Bob Allenhttp://ozarker.org/bob"Science is what we have learned
 about how to keepfrom fooling ourselves" � Richard Feynman___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
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Re: [Biofuel] Organic Biophonics and Hydo gardening

[pan ruti]

Evergreen Solutions [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Err...not sure where all that's coming from.I'll tell you why hydro's the way for me, since apparently it's sohorrible or whatever.  From hydroponic gardens you can go to ecological bio phonics organic system. Thus we are making system study on  biosystem integration , to do first thermophilic aerobic composting , then anaerobic bio digestion , then algae , which goes to fish and prawn pond , then this sludge from this used as gravel bed bio phonics organic gardening . After study of 3 years
 about hydroponics system , we have made a longer journey and finlay came to the same point what Keith point outs that we can not think only of fertilizer, there need to be soil based substrate , not the comercial one , as the plant needs are very complex and the plant growth is not limited to substarate , nutients , but there is living biosystem , ecology of this system tooMicrobiological ecology of the soil can help us , why we need eliminate this small tiny bacterial , fungus insect system ,rather let us combine the hydro system to benefit this natural organic system with fish and other wastes. Thus this new ecofriendly system is based both on the Hydro system ,but do keep the natural soil based substrate too.My yard is entirely surrounded on all sides by overhead vegetation. Noportion of my yard gets more than 2-3 hours of
 direct sun a day, sohydro lets me use my roof. Sure, I could concoct some elaborate systemto carry 50lb containers of soil to my roof just so I could have toworry about the rotting effects it would have on my roof, or I couldhave some 4 lb containers in a series.Can be good one where land is problemsAs for not sustainable, I was just talking to a fellow the other daywho uses seaweed and urine as his only 2 nutrients, growing tomatoesand basil in the cement wasteland that is his lot in whatever majorurban metropolitan area he has to call him own. Everybody keepstelling him it's not going to work, and he keeps harvesting aridiculous amount of fruit every year.Cow urine and wastes recycling are always practiced in rural areas in India and the most Asiatic countries , making more sustainable
 systemWhile I'm sure you understand that he could indeed build a planter inthe same space, you also understand that the "dirt" method involvesremoving additional topsoil from some other location, bringing itwhere he lives, and replacing it/fertilizing it every year and/ordiscarding it. How that's any more "sustainable" than organic hydro, Idon't understand. to make organic hydro one need also understand ecological bio systems . Here in Brazil, sugarcane based substrate , hydro system to make corn seed fast growing system has been found to be successful in demonstration level. When they made in big scale , several cows that were taking this hydro based beautiful green feed has died. Surely the microbial infection of this hydro system can be monitored , controlled , but not a sustainable system , yet .Now no more hydro system here even though there is need for the same
 because we are in dry landActually, much like JTF has international projects to keep people fed,there's a large aquaponics group that helps areas of dense populationw/ no or poor soil to have a very inexpensive, non-motorized, systemof food production vis-a-vis the fish and vegetables grown in the samelocation. I agree with you about the fish and vegetable system , but the use of only the hidro , but rather ecologically sound biophonics system need to designed based on nature , the natural way the plant has choosen adopted is the soil.For the engineer or businees people , it is not easy to undesrtand the ecology as this more comlex , not also the biophonic system which is an advanced topics in relation with hidro , need sound ecological engineering basicsAnyway, had I 15 acres to farm on, I wouldn't use hydro or evenadvocate
 it. However, I don't. There are several other benefits too,like handicapped accessibility and whatnot. And...as for "propping upthe plant in the soil", sure, some systems involve a growth medium,which for the most part are non-composted organic materials, but thereare plenty of other systems that don't use any growth media @ all,like NFT and deep water culture.You'll probably take offense to this, but you seem to read way toomuch into my posts, as in you assume too much. You're probablythinking I'm all about grow lights and grow rooms and what not. Noway! I just like summer based, outdoor systems. I can grow 10 tomatoesin just over 27 square feet, and if I feel like moving inside when itgets cold, I can propogage/clone those tomatoes into infinity simplyby taking cuttings and rooting them in water. My water usage is about1 gallon per week per tomato, my nutrient use is 1lb per 100 gallonsof water, and since I have
 full control over the substrata I have 0worry about fungi, root bugs, etc, and a simple once a weekvinegar/water mix keeps the foliar bugs at bay. I cannot see 

Re: [Biofuel] Small oil press :Capacity building and Product Selling

[pan ruti]

 Thank you Rexis ,and our list members  Thank you bringing here the big effort made by JTF group and KEITH not only on small press , which I am very happy to inform that this small press , has made our list much debate , sorry I have no time to follow .But the small press we made based on the JTF and Keith work , is making the poor not become poor , but give the hope for better futures, simple one doing all the same of the BIG one too .Thus the people capacity making to build and operate technology  is collective one , open source that need to be the open one too, all the credits go to Keith , as the design and our royalty too to him.We ,PhDs, with government spent money , university academic has spent a lot of time to make the the automatic screw press ,many such paper made press ,several thesis , patents, most have with no use,all sleeping in library which I am sure google is going get and sell it , naturally for rich , but the fact is Keith appropriate small press work very well like patented and inovative modern one. We expect with our project growing to pay donations for the same .Without this give and take ecological correct symbiosis , no good several hours dedicated work correctly poited out by Rexis , cannot survive the JTF and our list .The big crockdile such as yahoo, google , msn can swallow the small fish JTF , paying nothing leading ecological disaster.Thus Keith work on not only the BioD has showing an example how we need to join hand nad help the needful , to the poor and have not and not to explore them , not to think of only the profit.Well done really his dedicated
 very wonderful work on biofuel , not the best university , with huge money , even UNESCO is not able to make If one calculate the time he spend to read our list ,reply almost all , need , this can surely worthful more than Billgate fortune wit real value , especially the future generaions There is a lot of gap between inovative people and process based capacity building and simple product based marketing and selling. What our list members need to do is to make the network like bees , to use not the honey made by JTF group and Keith, rather make serious effort follow the road well built ,share the results , give and take the honey . This is how open source need to be really open ,really free fo the one who need it.Any good deed , well done work can have
 the good results.Our list members need to think of the future of our list , as the well done wok need not to be limited to one country , one company ,as Keith has correctly in ear liar e mail here , we need not to care here much about Bill Gate ,BIG BLUES, as this is waste of time, keep them out of topics.Inovation to make biofuel Our group in Brazil combined with ManicK , our list member too,Singapore , as brought here together by this list , again thanks to Keith , is doing joint project to make simple pyrolsis reactor of Biowastes integrated with Brazilian small scale distillation to make not only ethanol, but also methanol and Bio oil. We do think to release this design well made , that may take three months as the way JTF and Keith, jointly with our list members to build up people capcity to make power using
 biofuel made by them, thus they can get light which can get away the darkness and great green future based on biofuel.Any practical experience from others and Keith is well come about this new thread as I believe combiend etanol and metanol process can make BioD as the practical flexivel process for many rural areas. Manick has practical experience on metanol recovery from biomass, we do work on energy integration based on biomass. We, list members need much contacts , much informations sharings, Inovative design such as one in JTF ,showing good examples for newer generations come here learn together with us to like biofuel , as they do not care only about BILLGATE , let us too not care too.I feel what we need is good topics , threads, not the repeated debate , new green catalyst,Todd, Balaji , Manick can bring here dynamic green
 thoughts.sdPannirselvamRexis Tree [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sound like he just wanna sell his product. And wishfully hope that we can help him to boost his sale.Have we even see JourneyToForever complaining their effort spent to collect, make and test biodiesel, effort to support a website and a mailling list? Complaining about no big institude, no public money supporting them? And saying anything like "all biodiesel processors are so expensive, they goes in millions of dollar"? And charging us any penny for us to access on any biodiesel recipe or many other wonderful thing? No at all! There is just a donate button on the site, and everything else is free, not even a pop up banner! Well done. Regards,Rexis ___Biofuel mailing
 listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to 

Re: [Biofuel] sustainable biodiesel from Casto : Big is not beautiful, small is more sustainable

[pan ruti]

Respected and dear Keith and members  Thanking you for you to bring here the updated valuable information about Castor as biofuel raw material. The underdeveloped dry semiarid land of the north east of Brazil has been found to be very excellent for Castor cultivation with high productivity..The Brazilian big oil company PETROBRAS has pa tended process based on the Castor , some more detailed process information ,I can send another e mail if there is an need for the same here. By using one step simultaneous extraction and esterification, the patented process use crushed seeds to make four products , the BioD , the glycerol , the protein,
 carbohydrate that seem to deintoxicated for animal feed is now being  scaled up to big pilot plant. Competing with this big , another biga private oil company , now making investments with social and unfriendly agricultural modern big farming, as this company called Eco diesel is also entering now into the marketof Brazilian B2 fuel market, making sound Eco farming model giving land for the poor landless peole to plant Castor , the housing , the eduction ,the state government giving the lands , this private company use the conventional process based on the process of the Brazilian father of BioD , Prof Expedito Parente , who invited me from India to BRAZIL(1983) , for me to dedicate on the the Brazilian
 biofuel research project. He has the first word patent of bioD including the Castor based process , and also made Biokerosene from castor oil sucessfully proved to be the fuel for airoplane withMilitaryresearch.  Prof Expedito also work with several government and private company to make Biofueland any one can easily share experience with him about castor oil processing and he has book published too in Brasil The small presss , the small JTF procees , designed to make animal feed , pyrolsed biogas , Biofuel and organic fertlizer to recycle back the bioenrgy for comunity development is our small group research efforts which surely include sunflower , caster oil of the dry lands as these can make sustainable the life of dry semiarid peple with great hope with green energy
 projects.Thisintegrated project is our dream to make it reality , as we have already made the small press , thanks to Keith JTF , so simple to make , now processing coonut , getting good resutls , future the sunflower and also the castor oil .We believe , there is no need of bioD , as we already can use oil directly upto 25 porcent by blending with petro deisel as this is very cheaper in rural area too , the blending of BIOD from caster, we hope to get the better results . Brazil has 20 years of good research reports about castor oil use as biofuel , which we have the acess .One main problem with castor oil BioD is the viscosity that can be easily solved. We are ready to shar the the Brasilian research effort as we believe that we will be the number one in the world to
 come up with this biofuel , not because of the will of the8 biilions of liters of alcohol we produce , because the country has the vast land resources nearby by the Africa , and Europe where there is need for the fuel . Yet big is not not beautifuel , as Micro Soft Bill Gate too has investedthe money in the big Brazilian ethanol plants , but what we need is a sustainable global world based on small scale decentralised biomass refinary and investments for small ecobusiness , not the money of big bluesfor the modern high tech , leading to large scale unemployments and large loans , poverty. In this respect our biofuel list members are more aware , yet we need to come together , give and take our hands to solve the problems
 , mainly thefrom tropical south countries with the need to duplicate the big scale BIOD busines mistake of the developedcountries as other need not blindly copy the Big one HIGH TECH .Thanking you  Pannirselvam  Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Anyone care to share any experiences with castor oil based biodieselbrewing using small-scale plants? I am told that castor oil dissolvesin alcohols and external heating is eliminated from the process. I'malso hearing conjectures that castor based biodiesel will not freezeeven below -20 deg C. Any pointers to more specific info along these lines?I'll get to my own brewing/learning experiments soon (and I'll
 startwith proven processes and materials described on J2FE), but we could dowith as much existing wisdom as we can get our hands on, especiallybecause what we want to get into out here is not only for our personalconsumption. Many thanks in advance for any help.ChandanHi ChandanI can't share any experience of using castor oil but I can offer some information which might help. It's been discussed a few times before, I think other list members may have direct experience of it.List archives:http://snipurl.com/oeitSearch results for 'castor'The one disadvantage mentioned, that I haven't seen an answer to, was that crushing the 

Re: [Biofuel] use of cashew nut shell oil as a biofuel

[pan ruti]

 Dear Keith anda Paul RajThe cahew net shell has very significant quantitity  of oil , which is mainly unsaturated cardonal , very toxic , it is wll  micible with alcohol.   After , fast pyrlysis in very short time , this oil  can be used as BIO without any need for  alcohol as this work is being done at the department  of chemistry , IIT bombay . A lot of cahew nut shell is wasted as this lead to toxic flue gas.Than Keith bring this work here , we do good sucees in  using this oil to make natural coconut fiber compost reducing the  poliester very significantly and will be very glad to  make this home made renewable plastics as an  alternate to fibergalss .   Keith Addison
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  From: Dr.S.Paulraj, DFO, Hosur,INDIA - 635110.Can anybody help me to explain the use of thecashew-nut shell oil as a biofuel in any form?Is that oil from the nut or oil from the shell?BestKeith___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
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Re: [Biofuel] Vegetarianism and biofuels - was Re: Save energy, eat green

[pan ruti]

Respected Keith and our list members Vegetarianism , bio-fuel  , biodiversity and Animal growing are inter related  problems .One of the very interesting hot topics and  home work in this list that had been discussed here was  about the  sacred COW.  The milk and cow debate is also relavant home work done by  us in this list but always divide us into two group ,  pro and contra , but our list need to move in correct  direction , not the wrong way and journey.  Thanking allsd  Pannirselvam  Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:  I just said this in another message:I'm going to insist that if people want to discuss it all here they're very welcome, but we really don't need the sheer distraction of having to blunder down all the same old blind alleys again for the umpteenth time. Discuss it if you can take things further forward than previous discussions have done rather than backward, contribute something, come up with a new angle or a different aspect. Do your homework first, in other words.This is from a message on 19 Dec 2005:Not only do we have David Pimentel's annual disinfo campaign against ethanol to contend with, this year he found a new friend, Tad Patzek, and they did a duet, in two parts furthermore, attacking not only ethanol but biodiesel too. Arch-shill Denis Avery of the
 Hudson Institute has now joined the fray. He's been waging a disinfo war against organic farming for years. Many of the "green" groups, especially the "corporate enviros" sector (Big Green), swallow Pimentel's anti-ethanol crap, but they fight Avery over organic farming. But they're agreeing with Avery over biofuels, from George Monbiot a few months ago on.Some of the myths of vegetarianism play right into their hands. Especially if it's true that some or many vegetarians, whatever they might say, really do it as alleged because veggies don't scream and try to escape when you kill them, ie for emotional reasons. To which of course they're welcome, but it means they'll be more likely to believe what they want to believe rather than accept unpalatable facts such as that it's not even possible to grow veggies sustainably without raising animals, or that there is no
 traditional vegetarian farming system and never has been, or not one that survived. But if you know that it's not so easy to fall for the "food vs fuel" line Pimentel spins.Quite a lot of vegetarians are cultists, and they're suckers for Big Oil shills like David Pimentel and Dennis Avery.The discussions on vegetarianism at the Biofuel list go back a long way, and if all aspects of it are not covered in previous discussions it's sure worth checking anyway. I think this message from Ken Dunn probably brings most of it up to date.http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg58252.htmlRe: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farmingKen Dunn, 11/28/05Around that time there were also further discussions on the health aspects. Just after that we had a real exhibition of cult vegetarianism. It had no integrity, it achieved nothing but confusion and distraction, and I think
 that's where it can stop.This is from a post from me nearly four years ago, 27 Mar 2002:David Pimentel's infamous anti-ethanol reports are much used by vegetarian and vegan activists who're after saving the world by eradicating livestock farming. Pimentel says: "With the world population at 5.5 billion, food production is adequate to feed 7 billion people a vegetarian diet, with ideal distribution and no grain fed to livestock."Some people really hate it (and hate me) when I say these things, but there is no sustainable way of raising plants without animals. There is no traditional farming system that doesn't used animals, and never has been. It just doesn't work - soil fertility sooner or later fails, and then everything else fails too. Likewise in nature mixed farming is the rule, plants are always found with animals. God can't do it, and neither can
 we.But it's no use trying to argue with these people, it's not rational, it's a moral crusade, and if you don't agree, then you're the enemy. This is how a recent such tussle ended:"I disagree completely. There is no place for animal cultivation or the use of plant biomass to feed animals instead of people in any responsible plan to alleviate world hunger or promote sustainability." Then came the flames.Well, I just hope somebody will save the world from these people - all the Third World needs is this kind of bent-headed crap. Just to put that Pimentel quote above about population in perspective, there's enough food available to provide at least 4.3 pounds of food per person a day worldwide: two and half pounds of grain, beans and nuts, about a pound of fruits and vegetables, and nearly another pound of meat, milk and eggs - enough to make most
 people fat. No need to cut the meat. "With ideal distribution", Pimentel says, as if it's but a simple matter, whereas in fact it's the whole problem, the only reason 

Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method in remote place

[pan ruti]

 Hello Anthonio, Ken and Keith Iam sure that big company like BASF are trying to make ethoxideIN GLOBAL Market in big scale to sell to ruralpeople (high price too) so that Biod can be easily made with ethoxide( ethanol and NaOH)using patended catalyst, butwe can make in the cites this one as well outined process by Ken here ( Thanka a lot for HEN) thus BioD can be produced by any oneand any where, especially where even in rural remote place .This can be more practical and easy  wayso that Anthoni can get help from university in the city , who has technical skill to make possible the dificult part of the process ( the chemical engineering people like us ) colaborating , his dreams to make cheap biofuel,can
 be the wish of all our members inthe list. Can any here in our list , and sure Keith to to bring here the stae of art of making the Biod in different places, what is pro and against the etoxide methods.Can this method can help or not the biofuel development against the petroleium fuel.  Thanking you  Yours truely  Pannirselvam P.V   Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Blas Antonio Guanes wrote: the problem is that, methanol costs 4 $ and pure ethanol for car costs 0.52 $, NaOH is gotten in any part.. KOH is sold in bags of 25 kilos for soap industry.. Here in
 Paragua it is difficult to get chemical products. for that reason I want know how I can make with oil, ethanol and NaOHHave you tried dissolving NaOH in pure anhydrous ethanol? It isdifficult. If you can dissolve the required amount (perhaps byboiling the ethanol/NaOH mixture under reflux), you could possiblymake biodiesel out of very clean dry oil. If you only use 3.5g NaOHper liter of oil, or if your ethanol or oil contain any water, you willprobably never achieve separation of a glycerine phase. All youringredients go into a clear solution, and just stay that way forever.Until glycerine separates, you don't have biodiesel.-K___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined
 Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/  
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Re: [Biofuel] First Attempt at a Downdraft Gasifier Stove

[pan ruti]

 Thanks Tony and Keith Some very interesting research work as we analyzed as the good stove work for small scale rural industries are given in the following linkwww.retsasia.ait.ac.th/Publications/An%20Improved%20Gasifier%20Stove%20for%20Institutional%20Cooking.pdf  A simple closed pyrolysis system of Manick (Malaysia) of our group member  with the reuse of the flue gas in the simple gasifier as that of AIT can recover heat and co2 Balaji(India) our list member followed by combustion gasifier stove Keith can recover energy from char this this integrated system give the maximum thermal conversion with several coproducts , Charcoal, biooil ,
 wood gas , methanol .In this is area our small research group is making novel integrated low investment process design , mass balance and equipment designs .Depending on the nature of the biomass wood the system can recover natural volatile wood oil too.Some tropical natural wood here in Brazil north east part has significant amount of wood oil known as Marmeleiro.Thus this system is flexible one to render cashew nut shell liquid , pyrolysis oil (similar to diesel ) in addition to other co products.The decentralized biomass cracking is yet be designed to make this process as rural biofuel feed stocks.We welcome collaborative work in this work from our list members.Thanking you Yours truly PannirSelvamBrasil Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks Tony,So far I've been working my way through a few pdf documents:http:// journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/WoodgasStove.pdfhttp://jo urneytoforever.org/biofuel_library/TurboStove.pdfhttp://journ eytoforever.org/biofuel_library/woodgas.pdfI'll be sure to include your references as well. By the way, I'm getting the impression that the more advanced concepts require forced convection (like an air jet above the charcoal zone). Has there been any work done to use waste heat from the stove to power a fan/compressor via steam or Stirling cycle (for example).There's been quite a lot of discussion about that as far as improved cookstoves are concerned, two such discussions at the Stoves list at REPP that I know of, and at the Biofuel list IIRC, and
 I've discussed it with a few other people. Lots of ideas but no good answers. These IDD cookstoves are too small for chim,neys and if they'll only work properly with a powered fan supplying primary air it greatly decreases their application, but nobody was able to find an alternative. That concerned this stove that I designed and others similar:http://journeytoforever.org/teststove.htmlCookstove for schoolsWe more or less abandoned that whole approach (though lots of people have made that stove). Tom Reed once remarked that he thought about 25% of the science of IDD stoves is known. They're not there yet, IMHO. I think biofuels is a more promising approach, though to a somewhat different problem (kerosene substitution).Anyway I'm sure you're right about forced convection.BestKeithThanks again.MikeTony Grimes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 wrote:Michael Redler,Inverted downdraft is a good way to make a simple cook stove.If you are interested in powering an engine however, it wouldpay to look at the downdraft "Imbert" and "Statified Charge"gas generators. I built an "Imbert" type about 25 years agofor my '68 Caddy. It worked, but not as well as hoped. Theprice of gas came down a bit during the recession of theearly 80's and I lost interest in getting all the bugs out ofthe system. New advances and new concepts since then have meinterested again. What's new is that the gas leaves the gasgen in a very clean state. (minimal ash and very little tar)Here are links to some lists you might want to check out:The gassification archives - reg. req.http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/gasification/The stoves archives - reg.
 req.http://listserv.repp.org/pipermail/stoves/The Yahoo! e-group. - ya' gotta' join.http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WoodGas/Don't lose interest. Tony___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
	
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Re: [Biofuel] The Precautionary Principle and technology development

[pan ruti]

Hello to every one of the list  This Precautionary Principle related with the technology development is very interesting work for every any one concerned with new technology  , product and process development .Thanks a lot for Keith to bring this topic here for our list and I hope this can help us to do better analysis of our developmental worksdPannirselvamUFRN, Brasil Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Institute of Science in SocietyScience Society Sustainabilityhttp://www.i-sis.org.ukThis article can be found
 on the I-SIS website at http://www.i- sis.org.uk/philippines.phpISIS Press Release 09/01/06Lectures in The PhilippinesBy Dr. Mae- Wan Ho and Prof. Peter Saunders in universities and open forums in Luzon and Mindanao 11-16 December 2005The Precautionary PrincipleProf. Peter SaundersInstitute of Science in Society and King's College LondonAbstractThe precautionary principle is really just a statement that we shouldn't introduce a new technology or continue with an old one unless we're convinced it's safe both for us and for the environment. If we're not sure, we wait until we are. We don't just charge ahead and hope for the best.This is obvious common sense, but many powerful people oppose it, often because they or their friends want to make money out of products that appear likely to be - or even are known to be - hazardous. I list and refute the arguments most often
 used against the precautionary principle. I describe one example - asbestos - where failure to apply the principle resulted in a massive cost in lives and money, and show how the principle could and should be applied in the cases of Bovine Somatotropin (currently before the WTO) and GMOs.When an activity raises threats of harm to human health or the environment, precautionary measures should be taken even if some cause and effect relationships are not fully established scientifically. In this context the proponent of an activity, rather than the public, should bear the burden of proof.The Wingspread Declaration [1]The Precautionary Principle applies "where preliminary objective scientific evaluation indicates that there are reasonable grounds for concern."The European Commission [2]It's just common senseThe precautionary principle is really just a statement that we shouldn't
 introduce a new technology or continue with an old one unless we're convinced it's safe both for us and for the environment. If we're not sure, we wait until we are. We don't just charge ahead and hope for the best.Now you might think that this was such an obviously sensible idea that no one could possibly disagree. Unfortunately, there are many who do. That's usually because they or the people who support them want to make profits out of things that might be very dangerous: for instance, asbestos, tobacco and GMOs.They insist on what we might call the anti-precautionary principle: what they are producing must be permitted unless and until it can be proven to be dangerous. What is more, they set a very high standard of proof: the tobacco companies are still advertising and selling cigarettes despite the overwhelming evidence that smoking, even passive smoking, contributes to many serious diseases, not only lung
 cancer, and significantly shortens life expectancy.Because these people represent big corporations, well- financed think tanks, and university departments, they have a lot of influence. So we can't assume that just because the precautionary principle is common sense our governments are going to adopt it. We're going to have to convince them, and to do that we have to be clear in our own minds about what it is and how it works.The burden of proofThe precautionary principle is like the legal principle of the burden of proof. In a criminal court, the two sides are not on equal terms. The defendant doesn't have to prove he is innocent. He doesn't have to prove anything. The prosecution must prove he is guilty "beyond reasonable doubt." If they cannot, he goes free.The reason for this deliberate bias is that while we hope that our courts will convict the guilty and acquit the innocent, they won't always get
 it right, and we have to think about what will happen then. Most people would agree that while it is bad that a crime should go unpunished, it is much worse that an innocent person should be convicted. So just thinking that someone is probably guilty isn't good enough. The jury may only convict if they are really convinced he is, beyond reasonable doubt.In exactly the same way, the precautionary principle says that if we have good scientific grounds for being concerned that something presents a serious danger to health or the environment, then we do not have to prove that it is dangerous before we can justify banning it. It is the people who want to use and profit from the technology that have to prove it is safe. Of course they don't have to provide absolute proof � there are no absolutes in science any more than in the courtroom � but they 

Re: [Biofuel] alcohol by freezing the mash

[pan ruti]

  The ethanol seperation using freezing method
need to consider comparative energy analysis for any
novel process sythesis.
  Eventhough the freezing method seem to be simple 
can be easily coupled with solar energy  via heatpump
, you need to  freeze  a large amounto of water  and
hence envolve a higher energy output.
   Glycerol can be used to break  water and  ethanol
mixture. hower need more energy input too to seperate
agin the same.

   In this context I feel seletive solvent extraction
of only ethanol using castor oil and then evaporate
ethanol appear better approach  to get pure etthanol
as oulines  in the biofuel archieves 

  Yet few study are made to make this one as an
practical approach as detailed data are needed.

  Yours truley
P.V.Pannirselvam

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 COOL!! It is -10F below outside right now. I could
 be making hooch, I mean fuel, with zero energy
 input; sweet.
 
 Mike
 
 
 
 Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 09:39:36 -0500
 From: Legal Eagle [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: [Biofuel] Producing ethanol for fuel use
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Message-ID:
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed;
 charset=iso-8859-1;
   reply-type=original
 
 While having a chat with our local organic farmer it
 was disclosed that it 
 is possible to make food grade ethanol (vodka)
 from the fermentation 
 process without a still by simpy allowing the
 natural fermentation to occur 
 and then bringing he mix to well below freezing
 temperatures where the 
 water will solidify but the alcohol won't.
 Granted this could produce some inetresting alcohol
 for tinctures or other 
 medicinal purposes, but what if you take this same
 principle and then run 
 the high water content ethanol that is produced this
 way through a simple 
 condenser a la glycerine recovery system?
 Wouldn't the alcohol/ethanol still evaporate at a
 much lower temp than the 
 water and thereby dewater the ethanol which would be
 captured in a jug or 
 recepticle of some sort ?
 I know not much of these things, however from what I
 have gathered wouldn't 
 this be a possibility ?
 
 Thanks for reading.
 Luc
 
 
 
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RE: [Biofuel] Gardening and Compost

[pan ruti]

 Hello TIM

   You can accelerate by several biological methods 
which are weel documented  as report in TV GLOBO 
excellent report and we have beeen studing simple 
water   extraction process  as well as  inoculam 
recirculation process.

Full DETAIL WE CAN UPLOAD  AND SENT  FOR ANY ONE 

  Correct C/N  from  10 t0  20 is needed for good
formentation and hence correct  Moisture , animal
manuare content need to be carefully controlled to
have good fermentation  degradation.

   In ASIAN RURAL AREA  GOOD COMPOST ARE ALWAYS  MADE

THANKING YOU

SD
PANNIRSELVAM


--- Tim Ferguson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hello Robert,
 
 I to have the same problem but I have more plant
 material than animal manure to compost. I have two
 springs and creeks on the property with good head
 flow and have been pondering constructing
 something of a grist mill to grind the corn stalks
 etc prior to composting. Something similar may be
 done with a windmill provided enough wind is
 present. I may be wrong but I think it might work.
 Labor intensive for loading and unloading but
 better than what I am doing now.
 
 Best Wishes,
 Tim
 
   That issue aside, I have put the stalks, cuttings
 and other fibrous
 material in a heap to decay.  Aside from grinding
 or shredding this
 matter with a machine, is there anything I could
 be doing to speed its
 decomposition?
 
 
 robert luis rabello
 The Edge of Justice
 Adventure for Your Mind
 http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.as
 px?bookid=9782
 
 
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RE: [Biofuel] Gardening and Compost

[pan ruti]

 Hello TIM

   You can accelerate by several biological methods 
which are weel documented  as report in TV GLOBO 
excellent report and we have beeen studing simple 
water   extraction process  as well as  inoculam 
recirculation process.

Full DETAIL WE CAN UPLOAD  AND SENT  FOR ANY ONE 

  Correct C/N  from  10 t0  20 is needed for good
formentation and hence correct  Moisture , animal
manuare content need to be carefully controlled to
have good fermentation  degradation.

   In ASIAN RURAL AREA  GOOD COMPOST ARE ALWAYS  MADE

THANKING YOU

SD
PANNIRSELVAM


--- Tim Ferguson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hello Robert,
 
 I to have the same problem but I have more plant
 material than animal manure to compost. I have two
 springs and creeks on the property with good head
 flow and have been pondering constructing
 something of a grist mill to grind the corn stalks
 etc prior to composting. Something similar may be
 done with a windmill provided enough wind is
 present. I may be wrong but I think it might work.
 Labor intensive for loading and unloading but
 better than what I am doing now.
 
 Best Wishes,
 Tim
 
   That issue aside, I have put the stalks, cuttings
 and other fibrous
 material in a heap to decay.  Aside from grinding
 or shredding this
 matter with a machine, is there anything I could
 be doing to speed its
 decomposition?
 
 
 robert luis rabello
 The Edge of Justice
 Adventure for Your Mind
 http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.as
 px?bookid=9782
 
 
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Re: [Biofuel] Could methane gas be used for Bio Diesel?

[pan ruti]

The methane  is chemically different than 
methanol.More over you need heterogenious catalysis
for metanol.

Metane gas can be diretly used with vegetable oil in
IC engines  using  vegetable oil too , but not
possible  to hvve 100 use of Vegetable oil and methane
gas.
Some  compromise need to be done to get optimium 
biofuel mixture to your engine. Thus simple  method
can be worked out for  metahne gas and vegetable oil ,
kit  for the use of vegetable oil and hence no need
for BD and  other complicated process .
  Gas is better clean combustivel than liquid 

P.V.Panniselvam


--- 6 Heins, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Does anyone out there have any ideas on a method of
 using methane gas as a substitute for methanol in
 the
 BD process? Iam aware that methane gas can be
 catalyzed to methanol, but the cost of doing so
 sounds
 prohibitive. Is there another way?
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Re: [Biofuel] production of ethanol from wheat flour

[pan ruti]

  You need to use enzyme  alpha and beta amylase
to  first dextrinize tnen hydrlise to glucoe .this  
one can be done  at more than 10 porcent solid content
and lesss than 20 porecent concentration

sd
Pannir
--- Sandra MAURIAC [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I'm a French student and I'm trying to produce
 ethanol by first dissolving wheat flour in water.
 Has anybody heard of this process and knows which
 quantities to use ? Thanks
 
   
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Re: [Biofuel] Methane Digester:Composting Vc biodigestion

[pan ruti]

   Dear Tim
  
 Well any size of  biogas production is possible
from 250 l to 200 M3.Biodigestor of 5 Cubic meter  is 
the minium ECONOMIC  size  for a small  familly
cooking gas consumption.

 Composting lead to considerable loss of  material
10 -20 porcent  and hence  a good combination of
integrated composting and ANEROBIC biodigestion(NO
LOSS) in a closed loop  with water recycling ,liquid
biofertilizer,need to be studied.

If you dont  think of recycling the natural
biomass residuos from  animal , NATURAL BIODEGRADATION
 WITH TIME  making very significant amount of  CO2 ,
methane  gas, ALL  going to atmosfere.The environment
impact will be very high if your animal production is
very high.Better you think of clean  production  with
environmentally friendly apropriate  technology.We,in
the tropical  region of north east of Brazil, RN state
, Natal city,  do have a small  young ecodesign team 
WORKINg  in this type of integrated  biomass resource
INOVATIVE NOVEL technolgy for fuel, feed, fiber and 
food  production using biofuel FORM BIOMASS
WASTES(ANIMAL, AGRICULTURAL AND AGROINDUSTRIAL)
DETAILED   STUDY  NEED TO BE DONE FOR THE
INTEGRATED BIOGAS PROJECT, eventhough biogas digestor
can be simple,yet you may get  very little return , if
not well designed and all resources are well utilized.

   Feel free to consult here in this list forum your
project , before you put it in practice for operation.

Yours truely
Dr.Pannirselvam




--- Tim Ferguson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I was curious to know if anyone has any first hand
 experience with Methane Digesters. And if so, what
 size farm operation would be a minimum for
 generating a useful amount of gas? Keeping in mind
 that much of my small farm manure is currently
 used in composting and I wouldn't sacrifice that.
 However, over the next few years I will be
 increasing the amount of livestock. In addition,
 what sort of environmental impact might this have?
 
 Thank you,
 
 Tim F.
 
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Re: [Biofuel] Cellulosic Processing

[pan ruti]

  Hellow beggy

I am very glad to see your post and fully agree
upon your views as I am also one of the research
personel inthis field.Please see my post on organosolv
pretreatment process.

 A noval processing are need not only on 
pretreatments , fermentation , distillation.

 By sharing knowledge in all the fields our list can
have great futur to have the green bimass energy to
become a reality

sd
Pannirselvam 


--- Peggy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hello Jonathan,
 
 Qualified research via university, NREL, and
 traditional alliances is
 expensive.  We are fortunate to have a collaborative
 effort with
 seasoned pioneers in biofuels development dating
 from the past 25 years.
 As was referenced for the group about a month ago,
 the Hawaii study is
 one of the best sited for cellulosic biomass
 conversion to fuel ethanol.
 Primarily, it is not necessary to patent or have a
 patent on a microbial
 process inherent in nature.  Nature provides what we
 need and we can
 replicate certain biological functions with a basic
 knowledge in
 microbiology, botany, and physics.  Fortunately, our
 group assembled
 biofuel leaders who are innovators in combining
 nature's benefits along
 with some excellent application of industrial
 chemical theory to provide
 enhancements beyond academia's published papers. 
 I'm sorry that I am
 unable to quote studies that will prove what is
 already being
 practically practiced.  Fortunately, I did meet with
 a DOE statistician
 who is ready and willing to quote our data to
 change the official
 doctrine via new data.  First, we must be up and
 running beyond our
 pilot projects and small demonstration projects. 
 Also, we are
 assembling our papers for presentation, but running
 so hard and fast to
 get our clients up and running, that we will have to
 address the
 scientific community as time allows.  Right now, we
 are addressing need
 and affirmative action on a commercial
 scale--cellulosic processing of
 biomass to bring fuel ethanol into a new level of
 use and acceptance.
 Perhaps other list members can give you more
 material.  I'll bet that
 the archives have numerous references.
 
 Thanks for the email.
 
 Best wishes,
 Peggy
 
 
 Peggy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Good luck Gov. However, we hope to change the fuel
 ethanol business to
 be total biomass production and not based on an
 expensive food crop.
 And the existing corn producers are doing a great
 job with their
 products. We salute them and look forward to joining
 forces toward a
 united effort. snip
 
 Jonathan replied: Peggy, I would like to do more of
 my own personal
 research for my own knowledge on ethanol production
 from cellulosic
 biomass.  From the readings, you seem like you could
 point me in the
 correct direction.  Do you know if the technology
 has reached this stage
 yet on a commercial basis?  I have read some
 articles about companies
 doing small scale pilot programs, but not of any on
 a large scale.
 Thanks.  Jonathan. 
 
 
 
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Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel University

[pan ruti]

   Dear Ajay Kumar

The  Phd  programme of Bio diesel  is well related
to the chemical engineering departments or faculty and
I am sure yet there can be one Phd programme .Why not
you think of the  best faculty facilities any where 
and wish to be limited.Brazil, Australia  too are good
place in addition to India.With few months  language
course you can easily qualify to do PHD  work in
Brasil as  both the university and indusrial research
are very active in the field of your interest.

Best luck

Yours truley

Pannirselvam,



--- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 Dear Friends,
 
 Can any one help me to find the name of
 universities in USA having 
 PhD programmes
 
 on Biodiesel  i have done my Masters in Botany in
 India
 
 Warm Greeetings,
 Ajay Kumar.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Why the USA? Europe, especially Germany and Austria,
 are far ahead of 
 the US in biodiesel development and technology, and
 in all things 
 diesel. Is the US ahead of India?
 
 Best wishes
 
 Keith
 
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[biofuel] Resposible Eletronic Publications

[pan ruti]

Hello Keith and Todd
 
Just a  short  note to say that  even though  I am one of the member of 
3500  here  , I  feel very strange  towards mesy post here why there is no 
response  from Mark about  the technical problems posted  by you here as well 
as her  published  subject in JTF methods for  the quality of biodiesel .For 
the person who do not  respect a large  list  which has 3500 members  and  the 
list owner, we  need to stop , cannot accept  again and again   non technical  
topics  and non relevant topics such as counting of your the words , comparison 
and judgments..We ,several  members here, are  very sorry for  the few  people  
planned  open attack by ilegal means  here  on you in spite of your honest and 
responsible care of the irresponsible peoples post.
   I  admire ,as many here too,  about  your  dedicated care on responsible 
electronic publications and your balanced  view  giving several opportunity to 
them .Any responsible  person should give responsible reply towards his  
published electronic work  which is limked to large  list members, if not  the 
publication  made is not an real one  , but merely  imaginary.
   The messy posting here  teach all of  our list members one important 
lesson .Any person who  post  any globalized  electronic  technical information 
need to very careful and  aware about the fact  behind the same as  this medium 
is not an dead one  but  the facts posted here have much long  life and hence 
more responsibility .
  I appreciate your balanced  way  to  handle a wisely several  illegal 
posting , not with anger , but with the very  wise   and intelligent  way.In 
this context , I wish  to show some list solidarity with you and moderator of 
this big list so that all of our list members can reach our  goals  with peace  
not only for us , but also the  others who are in dark in remote village  
needing help from us to get the first time , see the light , energy and  power  
 from Biomass and biofuel.Let us not  get lost in messy ilegal posting to 
divert our goal
 .All gentleman of this group  who were prepared to recieve  the flods with  
with biofilters, recieved nothing useful  , not even any responsible reply and 
again we all  now have  to  face  illegal new threads  to go back the old 
treads.and flooding again inpite of our moderator and coordinator  wiseful and 
inteligent dedicated  figt to prevent the same.But the truth is going to win 
finally .
 
Many thanks.to you Keith, Todd  and our list moderator , who are  
really  the engines  which make  our biofuel  members  have  very happy JOURNEY 
FOREVER l so far and surly we  will be more happy too as our list  is 
growing fast and we will great green future from green biomass and fuel 
technoly inovations if we lal united globaly actin locally as an united family.
 
Yours truely
Pannirselvam.P.V.
 
 



 
 
 



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Re: [biofuel] Gentlemen, set your filters and Stoping the floods of waste messages

[pan ruti]

 Hello 
   Anres  and Todd
 
   You all have  made  very excellent observation .When our   time are lost 
of many of our members so the  loss for many , as the time lost   can not be 
recovered  .As most of the list members  have really problems of time and 
respond ,  let us all   wish  wait  our words  have  effect  as this IS  
concerned  to all the member of the list. 
Well,  Andres,  I agree  all with you  as your words well represent  the  
feeling of the most of us and also  very clearly that our list group is 
different than other .Here   we are posting  message, receiving innovative 
latest information, helping other to think  so that  a new comer from 
developing and under  developed country not not to repeat the mistakes of 
others  and get lost 
 
   We are here to do our part that world  energy  power need not be forgetten 
in real word as this is a ecologically  , economically and socially good  
options Well  let  all the list members  wish  and hope that wasteful messages 
need to stop NOW as Todd  had pointed out as we cant keep quiet the this messy 
flood again here.
 
Yours truly 
Prof.Dr.Pannirselvam.PV
 


Andres Yver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Saturday, August 28, 2004, at 01:58 PM, Todd wrote:

 Message: 17
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:49:53 -0500
From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Gentlemen, set your filters

 Save yourself hours of agony Maria.

 Just post the precise urls of the conversation, in perfectly 
 sequential
 order and be done with it. Let any and all derive their own 
 interpretation,
 should they have any interest in doing so.

 So far this rant has consumed hundreds of hours in collective time, 
 bruised
 and injured untold members from numerous lists and added several cords 
 of
 free fuel to the fires of intentionally and wantonly destructive
 individuals.

 It's a waste. It's relentless. And it needs to stop now. Not next 
 week. Not
 tomorrow. Not when and/or if you or anyone else ever feels vindicated.

 Life's too short and there's too much to be accomplished to be slowed 
 down
 by this mindless mess and all that has springboarded from it.

 Todd Swearingen

Thank you Todd!

We're here (as i see it in the short time on this list) to learn and 
share our knowledge of biofuel and its processing, as well as relevant 
information which can help us guide (as voters) energy policy in our 
respective countries, and empower us to make informed decisions 
regarding our own energy consumption/production.

Here's a poem to consider:

A RITUAL TO READ TO EACH OTHER

  If you don't know the kind of person I am
  and I don't know the kind of person you are
  a pattern that others made may prevail in the world
  and following the wrong god home we may miss our star.

  For there is many a small betrayal in the mind,
  A shrug that lets the fragile sequence break
  sending with shouts the horrible errors of childhood
  storming out to play through the broken dyke.

  And as elephants parade holding each elephant's tail
  but if one wanders the circus won't find the park,
  I call it cruel and maybe the root of all cruelty
  to know what occurs but not recognize the fact.

  And so I appeal to a voice, to something shadowy,
  a remote important region in all who talk:
  though we could fool each other, we should consider-
  Lest the parade of our mutual life get lost in the dark.

  For it is important that awake people be awake,
  or a breaking line may discourage them back to sleep;
  the signals we give-yes or no, or maybe-
  should be clear: the darkness around us is deep.

WILLIAM STAFFORD


andres yver





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Re: [biofuel] Gentlemen, set your filters

[pan ruti]

   Helo Mark
  
   On behalf of many of the list members , I request you to consider  not only  
your point of view  but also  the members  time to read and filter  your 
message.
I  hope  you are aware of personnel private and public posting as we all 
have  separate e mail for the same.The mixing of this two are not good.
You can have good reply  personnel  post to KEITH , which can lead to 
desired result you want , instead of making  your   public post  .All here  
here need creative constructive  post  as this not only  involve  KEITH  but 
all , not  a limited  private post , that  are not list members interest. Thus 
your purpose posting  can be  totally wasted  if need filters as the most  of 
list members  here  can  like your topic  of the subject Gentlemen  set your 
filters as this is is out of context here 
   Your post for  peace  and responsible reply  with  good topic subject 
related to biofuel can be the the good start 
After all we are  all  in the same group , list and surely we can  forget 
the  bad war  here of the past , built a new  friendly relation with  all  of 
us including KEITH as  the poor country , the  dark place with out electricity 
need our collaborative  wok , not the war . This is possible  and wish you can  
surly show  respect too  our list owner  KEITH , as you respect the list 
members, by  posting  your views here. But if you prepare an open war  here in 
biofuel in public , then the members  may not keep quiet  as this divert the 
purpose of this  list which have good standard, several members  setting a good 
example of  the globalized  list. Your bad reply action can  lead  not  only an 
open fight. to Keith but towards all members to as this public , not a private 
conversation and you need to be always way from all of us. THINK THIS BEFORE 
YOU ACT
 THE REPLY  YOU  PREPARE IF IT IS WAR AGAIN , NO BODY HERE WANT as all love 
here peace , Green great bright future including to you
 
   THE BEST ONE DO  IF ONE  DON'T ADOPT  IS  NOT   DESTROY THE PLACE 
CONSTRUCTED, LEAVE  IT TO SHINE  IN  OTHER PLACE .
 
Expecting your soft reply  so that no gentleman of the list here need filters.
This  I write hopping to  help  you  and  YOUR REPLY  as we  all can learn if 
we  can understand our mistakes and act  with responsible car for all.
   
Yours truly 
Prof.Dr.P.V.Pannirselvam
 
 

 



.org wrote:
 I'm going to write up my promised response to Keith sometime tomorrow 
when I get a chance.

  Since there are several issues being, ahem, 'discussed', it's quite 
likely to come in to the Biofuel list at the end of the day as several long 
messages, with lots of quoting back and forth.

  Those of you who mentioned that this should be offlist or is upsetting to 
you, may want to set your filters to miss these messages. I will add the 
subject heading 'for Keith' to the beginning of these, so you can filter it 
if it's 'offtopic' for you.

Mark




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Re: [biofuel] Re: Extracting alcohol instead of distilling?

[pan ruti]

Helo Ken and arcologic
 
Alcohol extraction  intead of distillation is  an novel process inovation  
which is being studied in a semi comercial scale in Canada   sucessfuly using 
simultaneaous fermentation and extraction using som solvent  non toxic that is 
being recycled.(octanol)
 
 In extracion of of alcohol from water using fase diagram , one can  improve 
the process using cosolvents (Caster oil ) as well as surface active 
agents(Biodeisel) .Thus a  good  biofuel mixture of low cost can be  surely  
made possible , but some one from our biofuel group  need to optimze the 
process of this new extraction to be practical using this novel approach.
 
sd
Pannirselvam

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Thanks, Ken,

For the excellent response.  Your suggested search worked great.  I put 
gasoline ethanol water ternary phase diagram into Google, got a copy of the 
diagram at 21 deg. C.

Here's the question I have thought about--

The diagram suggests that I can accomodate about 2% to 5% water in ethanol 
and blend it with gasoline without separation at 21 deg. C.  I read a warning 
somewhere that this isn't wise because the water will separate out at low 
temperatures.  Then, I wondered, is THIS a way to make a blend without dry 
alcohol, 
to cool the mix and remove the water.  (I understand, it's all in the phase 
diagram, and if it works the wrong way, just all of the alcohol separates out 
too.)

So, what do you think?   I suppose if I weren't lazy, I would start looking 
for a low-temperature diagram.  /Ernie

In a message dated 8/22/2004 10:10:52 PM Mountain Standard Time, 
biofuel@yahoogroups.com writes:
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 13:12:04 -0700
   From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Extracting alcohol instead of distilling?

on 8/22/04 10:19 AM, jseabolt2002 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 
 Here's my theory. Gasoline and alcohol will mix. Alcohol and water
 also will mix. But gasoline is lighter than water so it floats and
 doesn't mix.
 
 So does that mean if you took the alcohol/water from the mash and
 mixed it with gasoline, would the alcohol attach itself to the
 gasoline and what you would end up with is water on the bottom and
 gasoline/alcohol on the top? Then just decant the mixtures?
 
 


It's hard to describe the whole system verbally, but you can
do a Google search for the ternary phase diagram of the
ethanol-water-gasoline system and everything will come clear.
Essentially, your idea doesn't work. With no water present,
ethanol is infinitely soluble (miscible) with gasoline. But
being a polar molecule, it vastly prefers water. Thus, in
mixtures of all three, the alcohol forms a phase with the
water, while the gasoline remains a separate phase. In other
words, you CAN use water to extract ethanol from gasoline,
but you CAN'T use gasoline to extract ethanol from water.

-K


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Re: [biofuel] Re: Extracting alcohol instead of distilling?

[pan ruti]

Helo Greg
 
The idea is very good one and not a stupid as the low temperature can 
surely  favour the phase seperations and hence  alcohol extraction using some 
thermal effect.This  temperature effect should be also included and  it should 
be  optimized eventhouh  the energy cost  of the same  can make this process 
undesirable.Yours is not a  stupid idea , as stupid is relative to something 
more better.As we  the list memebers  presently do not have better process, we 
need results to find which is the best and worst.First  we need  new ideas, 
information flows  , this first step is called  process synthesis and then we 
all can do analyses , to know which is  stupid, finally the stupid one can be 
optimized too to make  inovation by the using optimazation technics.Alarge 
group such us ours can come of with inovative idea so that some one can test  
and prove it , rather than make trial and error aproach as we have good experts 
from diferent fields.The biodiversity of our list memebers are really
 very good  TO MAKE  INOVATIVE  NOVEL PROCESS .
Thank you for novel idea.
sd
Pannirselvam .P.V

Greg Harbican [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
This may sound stupid, but, why not filter the beer to get the particles out, 
then freeze the water out?

This was used by old timers to make a hard cider more potent.   In the winter 
they would leave the fermented cider outside, over night, then throw out the 
water ice in the morning.Each time they did it, it would have less and less 
water, and more alcohol.

Greg H.
  - Original Message - 
  From: pan ruti 
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 03:53
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Extracting alcohol instead of distilling?


  Helo Ken and arcologic

  Alcohol extraction  intead of distillation is  an novel process inovation  
which is being studied in a semi comercial scale in Canada   sucessfuly using 
simultaneaous fermentation and extraction using som solvent  non toxic that is 
being recycled.(octanol)

  In extracion of of alcohol from water using fase diagram , one can  improve 
the process using cosolvents (Caster oil ) as well as surface active 
agents(Biodeisel) .Thus a  good  biofuel mixture of low cost can be  surely  
made possible , but some one from our biofuel group  need to optimze the 
process of this new extraction to be practical using this novel approach.

  sd
  Pannirselvam

  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Thanks, Ken,

  For the excellent response.  Your suggested search worked great.  I put 
  gasoline ethanol water ternary phase diagram into Google, got a copy of 
the 
  diagram at 21 deg. C.

  Here's the question I have thought about--

  The diagram suggests that I can accomodate about 2% to 5% water in ethanol 
  and blend it with gasoline without separation at 21 deg. C.  I read a warning 
  somewhere that this isn't wise because the water will separate out at low 
  temperatures.  Then, I wondered, is THIS a way to make a blend without dry 
alcohol, 
  to cool the mix and remove the water.  (I understand, it's all in the phase 
  diagram, and if it works the wrong way, just all of the alcohol separates out 
  too.)

  So, what do you think?   I suppose if I weren't lazy, I would start looking 
  for a low-temperature diagram.  /Ernie

  In a message dated 8/22/2004 10:10:52 PM Mountain Standard Time, 
  biofuel@yahoogroups.com writes:
  Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 13:12:04 -0700
 From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: Re: Extracting alcohol instead of distilling?

  on 8/22/04 10:19 AM, jseabolt2002 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
   
   Here's my theory. Gasoline and alcohol will mix. Alcohol and water
   also will mix. But gasoline is lighter than water so it floats and
   doesn't mix.
   
   So does that mean if you took the alcohol/water from the mash and
   mixed it with gasoline, would the alcohol attach itself to the
   gasoline and what you would end up with is water on the bottom and
   gasoline/alcohol on the top? Then just decant the mixtures?
   
   


  It's hard to describe the whole system verbally, but you can
  do a Google search for the ternary phase diagram of the
  ethanol-water-gasoline system and everything will come clear.
  Essentially, your idea doesn't work. With no water present,
  ethanol is infinitely soluble (miscible) with gasoline. But
  being a polar molecule, it vastly prefers water. Thus, in
  mixtures of all three, the alcohol forms a phase with the
  water, while the gasoline remains a separate phase. In other
  words, you CAN use water to extract ethanol from gasoline,
  but you CAN'T use gasoline to extract ethanol from water.

  -K


  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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  http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

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  http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/

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  To unsubscribe, send an email

Re: [biofuel] New Member

[pan ruti]

 Helo AzamKhan
 
   You are  welcome here thhis list, where  you can get a lot of the 
information and experts too.It is good you go ahead with project  first 
seperately, readind earlier messages posted here , where you can find the error 
, the other have made..Then you need to do the system integration of alternate 
energy from biogas from spent grass, used vegetable oil , crude oil , biodiesel 
from spent oil cakes .Our small research group is envoved in  system design and 
optimazation of the several project you need.
 A significant amount diesel can be very easily substuited by biogas , crude 
non edibible oil such as cantor , sunflower.A signficant saving in combustivel 
is possivel using energy recovery from the gas  de escape from the IC engin.
Eventhouh I has obtained  my Phd from  was from IIT Delhi  on biofuel ethanol 
from  lignocellulosics, now  work in the north east of the Barzil, Natal, RN, BR


ENVIRONSINDIA [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hello everybody,
I have just joined this list and I must say that it is quite amazing!
My interest in biofuel is quite recent. I am based in Central India and have a 
farm of 36 acres where I cultivate aromatic grasses and steam-distill essential 
oils. I have also planted Castor in about 10 acres this year.
The problem here is the very erratic supply of electricity. Since I need to do 
a lot of irrigating, I have no alternative but to use a generator. I have 
installed a 8.75 kvA generator for one of my borewells. However, since this 
contraption guzzles about 2.5 lts. of diesel every hour, it was becoming too 
expensive to use. So, we converted it to work with LPG and now we can get it to 
work for about 30 hours in 14 kgs. of LPG. We also need about 4-5 lts. of 
diesel for the 30 hours to keep the engine lubricated.
That still leaves the problem of the tractor. Diesel here is quite expensive, 
approx US$ 0.60 per lt., and getting dearer by the day. I use about a couple of 
tousand lts. in the tractor in a year. That's why, biodiesel, if it can be 
cheaper, is the flavor of the season for me right now!!
I have been reading up on the How to sections of the journeytoforever site, 
but, I must say that I have still not quite gotten hold of the method. One of 
the problems that i can see straight away is the availability of the SVO, 
specially the used one. In India, one can't get used VO, cos nobody ever throws 
anything away. The cooking requirements of Indian food too leave very little 
oil as left-over.
Secondly, oils like groundnut or soyabean, which are the preferred cooking 
mediums here, are quite expensive to start with, like US$ 1.10 per lt., so 
unused oil will not make any cheaper diesel. 
The Government is giving a lot of importance to bio-fuel. A lot is being said 
and done about using seeds of certain plants, notably Jatropha, to produce 
biodiesel. However, so far, I have not come across any process which can make 
this feasible on a small scale. In any case, one has to have the Jatropha seeds 
to start with and, short of growing the trees yourself, it is difficult for now.
Generating gas out of cow-dung is pretty well established and this does run 
generators and can be used as fuel for gas cookers, but it still leaves the 
area of tractors uncovered.
So, I will be very grateful if all you knowledgeable people out there can come 
up with ideas to help me out of my predicament and guide me through all the 
steps in words of one syllable.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Azam M. Khan

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Re: [biofuel] New Member

[pan ruti]

 Helo AzamKhan
 
   You are  welcome here thhis list, where  you can get a lot of the 
information and experts too.It is good you go ahead with project  first 
seperately, readind earlier messages posted here , where you can find the error 
, the other have made..Then you need to do the system integration of alternate 
energy from biogas from spent grass, used vegetable oil , crude oil , biodiesel 
from spent oil cakes .Our small research group is envoved in  system design and 
optimazation of the several project you need.
 A significant amount diesel can be very easily substuited by biogas , crude 
non edibible oil such as cantor , sunflower.A signficant saving in combustivel 
is possivel using energy recovery from the gas  de escape from the IC engin.
Eventhouh I has obtained  my Phd from  was from IIT Delhi  on biofuel ethanol 
from  lignocellulosics, now  work in the north east of the Barzil, Natal, RN, BR


ENVIRONSINDIA [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hello everybody,
I have just joined this list and I must say that it is quite amazing!
My interest in biofuel is quite recent. I am based in Central India and have a 
farm of 36 acres where I cultivate aromatic grasses and steam-distill essential 
oils. I have also planted Castor in about 10 acres this year.
The problem here is the very erratic supply of electricity. Since I need to do 
a lot of irrigating, I have no alternative but to use a generator. I have 
installed a 8.75 kvA generator for one of my borewells. However, since this 
contraption guzzles about 2.5 lts. of diesel every hour, it was becoming too 
expensive to use. So, we converted it to work with LPG and now we can get it to 
work for about 30 hours in 14 kgs. of LPG. We also need about 4-5 lts. of 
diesel for the 30 hours to keep the engine lubricated.
That still leaves the problem of the tractor. Diesel here is quite expensive, 
approx US$ 0.60 per lt., and getting dearer by the day. I use about a couple of 
tousand lts. in the tractor in a year. That's why, biodiesel, if it can be 
cheaper, is the flavor of the season for me right now!!
I have been reading up on the How to sections of the journeytoforever site, 
but, I must say that I have still not quite gotten hold of the method. One of 
the problems that i can see straight away is the availability of the SVO, 
specially the used one. In India, one can't get used VO, cos nobody ever throws 
anything away. The cooking requirements of Indian food too leave very little 
oil as left-over.
Secondly, oils like groundnut or soyabean, which are the preferred cooking 
mediums here, are quite expensive to start with, like US$ 1.10 per lt., so 
unused oil will not make any cheaper diesel. 
The Government is giving a lot of importance to bio-fuel. A lot is being said 
and done about using seeds of certain plants, notably Jatropha, to produce 
biodiesel. However, so far, I have not come across any process which can make 
this feasible on a small scale. In any case, one has to have the Jatropha seeds 
to start with and, short of growing the trees yourself, it is difficult for now.
Generating gas out of cow-dung is pretty well established and this does run 
generators and can be used as fuel for gas cookers, but it still leaves the 
area of tractors uncovered.
So, I will be very grateful if all you knowledgeable people out there can come 
up with ideas to help me out of my predicament and guide me through all the 
steps in words of one syllable.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Azam M. Khan

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
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Re: [biofuel] Alcohol as a motor fuel and going to Jail

[pan ruti]

Hello 
  Robert luis 
 
Thank you for your observation.Unfortunately ,we live in a very strange  
world.I agree with you that Brazil  is  strange and different than U.S.A  needs 
  investment in education  and intelligent people.The present Brazil is 
changing  slowly  especially the area in  the Amazonian  as well as east 
central part  with the large agricultural project of soybeans and cotton 
developing economy and work for the people, 
 Brazil as the first time  has own against  the shameful ways  the  
developed countries huge  financial support  for their big landowners  
protecting them and also the heavy tax  for the products from less developed 
countries.For example  in north east of Brazil it is possible grow shrimp 
through out the year and higher productivities than Canada and USA in winter , 
thus all  America can benefit by this rich biodiversity , no need to import 
from  far Asian countries  as this very cheap.What about the quality of the 
food the people eat.May it is good ecologically the people migrate in winter 
holidays in Northeast like the birds.This can be more economical for North 
American consumers as well as for Brazil.
  Using anti dumping  and other ways  the  tax  have been raised too a 
high level for several products  from Brazil to destroy it to protect  the 
national one..Who is losing., not only the Brazil.The consumers , several 
shrimp processing industry in developed countries and economy too.
This type of globalization is really shamefully. 
I am very sorry  that  you understood  that I gave advice.I am  sorry that 
I am not   advising  him  to make illegal distillery unit,  but  made  
suggestion  to do it legally with his advocate.and surely  make  an  quick way 
to  solve  the problems of the the people who live  along with him.Why not ?.If 
not this possible , let us think   to make law  modified for the people by the 
people.The local politics  and governments are there for local people 
developments, democracy, environmental protection.In this respect .Brazil is 
going slowly well , not following the the shameful way of  doing  quick  way  
globalization for only fews increasing the gap between rich and middle class.
It is really shame so many people more than  several thousands   living in 
dark, do not know what is Electricity here not only in Brazil  and several part 
of the world.Where as in developed country , consuming more , increasing  the 
temperature  all paying  the same price  for the energy  any where  as they 
have power to get and distribute it.As you know no one is there to help rural 
mass, especially in Brazil, all living city in the beach areas.How is possible 
survival the whole with out care for lands , food and energy production.As you 
pointed out the government not only have the rights to put the jail , but they 
have also need to feed the person in the jail.In Brazil as there is no place in 
jail  and also good food they give , criminals are increasing too, now 
government plan to Find way to minimize  the jail period.
 
  Robert, make a visit to Brazil the changing one , surly you can see the old 
suffering  and shame all is slowly  changing as the energy is  made available, 
will be  surprise to see the change, yet vast maior population do sufers a lot 
The vast nature  with highest biodiversity is going to make this country number 
1 , not only in  the biomass energy  field, but also  develop a  new 
agribusiness model  for the world , the homeless quickly become cooperatives to 
take care  of the uncared lands.This change  does make conflicts , fights but 
the vast lands do not need the blood of the people , but the care.Surely your  
grand  daughter and your family , the educated  and  intelligent people  will 
have the friendly welcome and will have  the good right place  here to come 
back as you are all the son of the soil Brazil ,Brazilian have the Friendly 
Culture and Brazil can allow two citizenship and you  can transfer the good 
biofuel technolgy of the Brazil 
 Brazilian farmer , overgrowing student young entrepreneurs, politicians , 
industrialist  now believe in biodiesel, unlike earlier pro alcohol national 
programme as the new hope for the green future.The debate here is in the level 
of the small  farmer , cooperatives , municipalities  is very slow unlike  
Germany plan OF B100, Brazil  start with 5 %, then 10% as they have made motor  
with ethanol only .Surely the information flow  made possible like our Biofuel 
group members can accelerate and speed this slow change as  technological 
innovations are given important and considered as the  base for the 
developments in the underdeveloped areas.
 
   Thanking again 
   
sd
Pannirselvam P.V


robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
pan ruti wrote:

You need not worry about going to  jail because you make alcohol 
 eventhouh it is strictly prohibited by several countries.For sustainable 
 own use , with own risk one can

Re: [biofuel] Alcohol as a motor fuel and going to Jail

[pan ruti]

   Hello  Jseabolt
 Unlike  corn grains ,potatoes,  grass  contains cellulose  and lognin  
as cement making grass and wood  much strong  and hence to process and  make 
sugar  for ethanol production
   So far  few  anaerobic bacterias that can make alcohol directly from 
celluloses are  isolated.Genetically modified  bacterias are also attempted.Yet 
they cant attack easily lignocellulosics and not effiecient like alcohol yeast.
Wood alcohol is called  methanol  obtianed buy  direct destructive 
distillation of lignocelulosics, but ethanol  is obtained  form sugar by 
fermentation , then distillation.
Several problems  need to be solved to make sugar from celluosics  , see my 
earlier posting here about lignocellulosics
   You need not worry about going to  jail because you make alcohol eventhouh 
it is strictly prohibited by several countries.For sustainable own use , with 
own risk one can make alcohol  in a small scale as same  as  the 
bodiesel.Making  one  energy is the fundamental right of any human being 
provided , the same do not cause any damage any one and environments.If you 
make ethanol in Brasil every one will admire you , surley no one , even the 
judge will surley feel sorry to put you in jail as he too depend this fuel to 
do his work
 Here in  Brazil very  rarely  in remote area, the  alcohol is made  in 
small scale  level and used in  the car  for local use  farmer  use eventhough 
this is illegal but  sustainable only way the farmer can survive. Where there 
is no energy at all and no one  will go to jail as this too need energy too 
much..After all, the  laws are made by us to do things for us . Inside your  
small farm you can do things on your own  risk and problem surely may  arise if 
you do on a commercial  scale that need go by technical specifications strictly.
 
   In most of the world  no one will   go to jail  because they make alcohol  
for  drinking , making money and spoiling the environment and  health .  I 
believe too if you have  good advocate you can win and not  go to jail as you 
are solving your energy problems  with your  little resources.We are pleased to 
invite you here  brasil if this the case there that you will go to jail, as  we 
need inovative person like you here  with a vast land unutilised, and surely 
can have legal fight to allow you to do your  good work here if you need.
 
   We have litlle  studied the viability of fast rapid growing Elephant 
grass grown on treated sewage (800) ton /ha/year  that can give  the highest 
quantity of  plant protein and biomass  to make alcohol and animal feed using  
celluase enzyme recovery.
With out financial suport , we are not able to continue this important study.
In this context help is welcome  to make joint research work as now  we have 
good network
  Small scale decentralized  Grass biomass project is  yet in  design stage , 
economic viability depend the place that need to be well studied  as the 
technology is not proven nd mature.However  your idea is good  and surely 
became reality when the gasoline is no more , surly , the alcohol , biogas and 
bodiesel will  make us survive  in a sustainable way.These three biofuel can be 
produced in a integrated way in a small scale farm.
We have list members , experts , researchers  in this group , but some one like 
you or the king of biomass from France  need to do the Kraft work based on the 
information here  , otherwise  the result can be  bad, time and money all are 
wasted.
I have a lot of  hope and wish you the best success in your effort to 
understand and work  in this  field of  ethanol from biomass.The next rich king 
of the biomass will be the one who can make ethanol from cellulosic biomass in 
a simple way as  the way you think too.Unfortunately the way known  upto now is 
very complex .but surely there can be a simple way too.
   Please feel free to contact  all us  and  the  list members of the group to 
go ahead your work as this is the one of the best place you any one from any 
place   can find the information and the best  people  well organized in a net  
with well coordinated scientific and technological  information all in one 
place. I  think that   the biofuel list members are like Cart , but the main 
Engine , the bull  who make  the  group very dynamic  and moving  the bullock 
cart here, in the  the real world  against the  great big blue stones  is  very 
 hard task .Even though  several stones are thrown on our  group, our  beloved 
leader KEITH  is  really doing  hard work. Therefore  may  not be correct call 
him as merely as the coordinator of our list  , surely correct  call him  as 
Our true GURU  of  Biofuel  for all dedicated  mainly for  small farmer  
throught the world , the rich , the poor , the north , south ,east and  west  
so that  simple  person  like you can have the access the
 information from the people  from university like me .Thus we here all wish  
you  to make  your energy and  power 

Re: [biofuel] Biodiesel Plant in Brazil

[pan ruti]

   Dear Ranganath
 
   We are presently studying only the research and developments  that are 
going on several places in BRASIL. , but soon can give detailed information you 
want latter if you wish.
 
 
Brasil is going ahead with  great biodiesel  project  in large scale  
production   such  as  4 l/day  using  peanut oil  in cane growing areas in 
south,  medium scale plants palm oil  in Amazonian  areas .Medium scale 
prodution using castor oil in North east underdeveloped area in Brasil , mostly 
 by  federal and state government.
The federal goverments Petrobras  is  going to install  big scale plant based 
on castor plants  that wiil be  grown on  treated  waste water from petroleium 
production based on caster seeds in dry semiarid areas with less developed area 
with  large poor people .
 
In addition ,  a big   private  alcohol equipment manufacturing  DEDINI is 
going to invest  biodiesel  plants  using Rapid  cellulose hydrolise plant OF 
VERY BIG SCALE FOR  EXPORT.( see our old arquives here in this list)
 
   .
Our small research group is working towards a smallscale decentalized  
sustainable  biodeisel  and  bioenergy  project for Brazilian rural ares as  
the diference between rich  and poor is  the  very high here.
  Brasil has one of the best technology  for small scale alcohol  low  
investments and  production cost and  hence can also have small rural biodiesel 
soon.
  
Several simple pyrolysis  process for  removal of glycerine before 
tranesterification , electromagnetic process  are  proved to be excelent  
methods  in lab scale , but informations   are  confidencial and not  not yet 
public as the  reaction time has been reduced significantly.
  
We are open to have colaborations to all who want to make powerful the poor 
 to have the fuel and food , not the the large scale  biofuel model.
Brazil  set example  with the several small scale alcohol  unit from sugarcane  
competing with big one  , the  largest biomass energy  programme  sucessfully  
sustainable , making  several billhaoes liters of alchol  per year and I am 
sure Brazil  can also  set an good  example  going ahead  with small scale 
decentralised  biofuel programme.This will be the  future  green biofuel  as 
every Brasilian believe in biodiesel unlike alcohol, the bright sustainable 
economy based on biofuel  is going to make BRAZIL  as an  ECOLOGICALY  BASED   
DEVELOPED ECONOMICS  as leader  for the world  , not only the permanent place  
in  UN which it  has all merit to have.
 
yours truely 
sd
Pannirselvam
 
   

s_ranga108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi 

Does anyone know of a new biodiesel plant in Brazil? Appreciate if 
anyone could give me some info

Ranganath




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Re: [biofuel] Integrated processing of lignocellulosic biomass!

[pan ruti]

  Thank you very much Keith Pretreatment process is the first step for any  
lignocellosic  biomass   reuse .I  expect  the member of ourgroup  can  
participate the debate  towards  this  complex subject  so that   we can  have 
apopriate   pretreatment process  , not  the patened one.
 
Thanking  You 
 
Best regards 
 
P.V.Pannirselvam


Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Greetings Pan

Thankyou very much!

Now I'm going to spend some time going through it carefully, and then 
I'll reply to you.

Thankyou for your hard work.

More later...

Best regards

Keith



Green  appropriate Biomass Refinery  for  food and fuel 
microenterprise Part 1:Pretreatments methods.



Hello  to all  the members of the list.

snip



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[biofuel] Integrated processing of lignocellulosic biomass!

[pan ruti]

Green  appropriate Biomass Refinery  for  food and fuel microenterprise Part 
1:Pretreatments methods.



Hello  to all  the members of the list.

 The   ethanol  production from cellulose is not yet an mature  real world  
technology , eventough  considerable  process improvements and tecnological 
breakthrough have been  made  in the past  three decades(1970-2004) especially 
during petroleium crysis .As  the posgraduate researcher , actively  
partcipating  in  all  the past  research  both in  India  and Brazil , I was 
not sure  earlier to  post this topic here as I  was not convinced   that  it 
is ufuel here to discuss about this topic .After  our group coordinator  Keith  
given ok to this as relevant , I  do make small report here, naturally in 
complete .  I  really  admire Keith as  our leader with mission  to make the 
information reach the poor and all  the  part of the world. We all want  the 
global word green for all ,not only for  the BIG BLUES the Corporatives .His  
reply to me that several younger generations  active one here   do  need this 
topic . I wonder ho he find  time   always  to answer to all  or themost of 
 the  question here posted , especialy to the  newer   and  the  younger 
one.Our wish is  enable all ,especially  the younger   to be envolved  and 
interested andour our group more dynamic and productive. .After reading the 
reply from Keith  about this topic, I do feel that  that  this topic canot be  
forgten here  because  the technolgy is not mature , but is  an real  critical  
bootleneck for the  next generation renewable biofuel  (ethanol)production ,but 
not hyrogen  as the big blues  wants.   Sharing my views  with all  can make 
the  younger one think , aware  and may also  solve  this critical  tecnnical 
problems ,if not now  ,surely why not  in future! This the reson 
behindtisletter.

Understanding the correct problems  can  and should  lead  us  to come  with 
correct solution  which  can make  the imaturure ,energy intensive, cost  
effective   technolgy  of  etanol making  from cheap cellusic biomass residues 
the as mature one  for us .Our wish here is all of our list  be aware of the   
the bottleneck ,problems   and  come  upwith the noval ,inovative  solution   
by debate, discussion.Several minds can break any  bootle neck and problems   
that   lay  in the way of making etanol from cheaper  raw material.



  Unlike  petroluim  refinery mega structure and business firm  , the 
biomass based enterprise need to be  small and medium  and  should envolve 
local markets,  not limited to fuel alone.We need protein food, fiber , 
fertilizer  and  fine chemicals too to make sustainable  the small refinery  
integrated to local develpment and democracy  with agriculture  and environment 
Here food versus fuel conflict need to well addressed towards  sustainability 

.Making  use of only (celluolose) fiber and paper from biomass  is an  actual  
working tecnological industrial process. . There is  also other process that  
make only  make  Chemical,Perfural(solvente)  from hemicellusoe  is yet another 
type of tecnological industrial process, Also  the process  that only   make 
use of lignin  with organosolve  for polymers are yeast protein feed  from  
hemicellulose  are approaches  that   have  been also   made possible  as  
suceesful industrial biomass projects in several countries. ,but  do not lead 
to total biomass  utilization, degrading  the other  unwanted components rarley 
reused as fuel..Here is the real problems , the novel pretreatments  should  
aviod this  process estrategy  of  partial use  of biomass, leaving themost as 
waste.

 

   There are  the three main components  of biomass,  the celluose 
,hemicelluose and  the lignin the aromatic polymer. Degrading them  involves 
energy  , chemicals and hence more costs ,but fractionation of  them without 
major degradation  can be   considereded as the  best approach,but dificult to  
achieve  , but can be  made  possible with  the  organosolve (ethanol, acetone 
,acetic acid, etyle glycol)process.Several patents, inventions ,proess details 
are   kept as top secret and valueful informations  by large  scale  Company 
and Corporatives Petroleium companies to sustain the mega scale  refinery 
concept to continue with the business aportunities using big biomass refinery 
project under  multimillion dollar proces developments  in Canada, France , 
Japan  and Australia.Nobody know who willwin independent of the  the people 
money spent by these country  little kwnown to the people.



  One approach  that is near comercail scale is the acid catalized  
organosolve pocess.Very  high temperarture  and pressure  above  180 C  when 
used , do not need atalist.Rapid depolimerization and hydrolysis  can be  
acieved by acids or alkalis  as catalyst  below 180 C.  Other organosolv 
pulping processes include the hardwood only ALCELL ¨ process which has 

Re: [biofuel] Biomass Refinary:Integrated processing of lignocellulosic biomass!

[pan ruti]

   Respected  Keith
 
   Thank you  for your reply letter
 
   Eventhough  several  research papers are  published , including my  research 
work and the international symposium books on the solvent delignification ,but 
they  are available in the specialized  journals ,  the small biomass refinary 
of integrated processing of  lingnocellulosics  is not yet been given 
importance as it is not as matured as our biodeisel projects..But surely , like 
 the small scale biodeisel project, this one have  a great green future  as the 
celluose  is the most abundant , renewable natural  resource  and lignin next 
to cellulose in abundance.
Surley I  am very glad to  prepare and post first  the short summary of the 
state of art  and also wish to contribute 1 or 2 page  relevant information 
regarding  what  the process develpoment  acadamic  people call THE  
ORGANOSOLVE  DELIGNIFICATION  or biomass  fractionation or BIOMASS REFINERY 
Surely   some of our list members can simplify  and modify the process, as  
ethanol lignin are  good biofuel too, the   sugar from celluose  and 
hemicellusose can be used  acording to local market demand as well as  to make 
ethanol in small scale farm.
 Please  kindly  give me time of  20 days  and also I expect your help  to 
improve language part, because here in Brasil I rarley practice  English , lost 
touch with the language for the last 25 years and definately  will contribute 
to the JTF.
 I am sure our list members can be active and share the knoweledge   
towards  making  ethanol in   small scale using  several biomass residues.Thus 
Biomass Refinary can de small too .
 
Thanking you again
 
Yours truely
sd Pannirselvam

  
  
 
 

Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Greetings Pan

   I have done  Phd   work  (1978-1982), pilotplant   designed 
, now constructed. at  IIT Delhi, based  on my laboratory work on 
catalytic  low temperature(120)acidos , alkalineetanol e 
water delignification process leading to good seperation of 
celulose , hemicelluso e lignin and very high enzymatic hydrolysis 
of treated fibers.
Biomass ethanol with this process has great role to play  in the 
next few years together with biodeisel.I will be very glad to s«hare 
the process details for decentralised biofuel process developments

Would it be possible to share the process details onlist with 
everyone? I'm sure there would be a lot of interest. Or, if it's too 
big and detailed for that, maybe it could be uploaded at Journey to 
Forever?

regards

Keith


sd
Pannirselvam .P.V



Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello Hans

 Acid Catalyzed Organosolv Saccharification (ACOS). This unique, high
 pressure, high temperature, closed loop, pulping process has been developed
 and patented by chemist Dr. Laszlo Paszner (Paszner Technologies, Inc., of
 Surrey, B.C.) of the University of British Columbia. Although it is
 adaptable to Alaskan species, both hardwoods and softwoods, the process has
 yet to be proved commercial for the Alaskan environment.

Or for any environment I believe. Paszner and ACOS have been
discussed here before. See:

http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/?keywords=Pasznertime=allusert
ime=2002-12-31

See also:

Wood-Ethanol Report: Technology Review
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library.html#woodeth

Best wishes

Keith




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Re: [biofuel] Integrated processing of lignocellulosic biomass!

[pan ruti]

   I have done  Phd   work  (1978-1982), pilotplant   designed  , now 
constructed. at  IIT Delhi, based  on my laboratory work on catalytic  low 
temperature(120)acidos , alkalineetanol e water delignification process 
leading to good seperation of  celulose , hemicelluso e lignin and very high 
enzymatic hydrolysis of treated fibers.
Biomass ethanol with this process has great role to play  in the next few years 
together with biodeisel.I will be very glad to s«hare the process details for 
decentralised biofuel process developments
 
sd
Pannirselvam .P.V
 
   

Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello Hans

Acid Catalyzed Organosolv Saccharification (ACOS). This unique, high
pressure, high temperature, closed loop, pulping process has been developed
and patented by chemist Dr. Laszlo Paszner (Paszner Technologies, Inc., of
Surrey, B.C.) of the University of British Columbia. Although it is
adaptable to Alaskan species, both hardwoods and softwoods, the process has
yet to be proved commercial for the Alaskan environment.

Or for any environment I believe. Paszner and ACOS have been 
discussed here before. See:

http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/?keywords=Pasznertime=allusert 
ime=2002-12-31

See also:

Wood-Ethanol Report: Technology Review
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library.html#woodeth

Best wishes

Keith



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[biofuel] Gasification of biomass and glycerol

[pan ruti]

 Hello   Balaji
   
  Here in northeast part of the Brasil, we are  studying the possibility of 
installing a  small gasification units in rural area  based on coconut  and 
cashew nut shell.What about the viability  of   making  the small scale 
units.Please  help us inthis regards about resources in internet..Can glycerol 
can be used in the process.
 
Your faithfully
Pannirselvam


balaji [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
Hello Shashi,

Sorry for this late posting. On this list, even 3 days seems a lot ;). Happy
to learn of your interest in converting biomass to methanol. In theory at
least, it should be possible to convert the Pongamia pods into methanol, the
intermediate process being gasification. Atmospheric gasification generates
syngas/producer gas having the following molar fractions :

CO - 20%, H2 - 20%, CH4 - 4%, CO2 - 8% H20 -1% N2- Rest.

Steam reforming of biomass aided by electrolytic or PSA Oxygen gives higher
H2:CO ratios as follows :

CO - 37.3%, H2 - 15.8%, CH4 - 11.4%, CO2 - 34.7% H2O -0.5% N2- 0.3%.

Stoichiometry requires a still richer H2 :CO content for better conversion
of methanol.

This can be done by either increasing the H2 content or by lowering the CO2
content.

H2 in turn can be generated either by electrolysis or by atmospheric
gasification. Though you can generate the electricity with biomass
gasification and gas engine and use it for this electrolysis, the
alternative of H2 separation from syngas is even more attractive, as you can
still use th CO left behind in the syngas for power generation.

Studies have indicated that this H2 addition though more capital and energy
intensive, still produces lower unit cost methanol owing to higher coversion
efficiencies (about 81%).

The reaction can also be pushed to the right by CO2 removal, involving lower
energy and capital costs, but suffers from much lower conversion
efficiencies (22%) and therefore higher unit cost of production (over 50%),
to which Art alluded earlier.

For details refer to
http://www.refuelnet.de/content/refuelnet/pdf/SOMFB_99.pdf

All this is of little help to you, since the capital equipment would
significantly add to your biodiesel plant cost. As they say in Tamil, do not
buy a horse because you got a horseshoe free. It makes much better sense to
use both the shell and the seedcake after oil removal for power generation
with biomass gasifiers, which can be sized right from 5 kW upwards. We are
currently conducting studies on a 1000 lpd biodiesel plant, which will use
the noncattlefeed grade seedcake for power generation via gasification to
meet its parasitic load. The Ministry of Non-conventional Energy Sources
provides subsidy for the gas engine generator.  The plant will typically use
about 1.2kg of seedcake per kWh of electricity.

If you can tell me the size of your plant, I can possibly work out more
meaningful numbers.

Regards,
balaji

 DEAR BALAJI,

 Your message was very useful  informative, I would like to like to know
if METHANOL can be produced using the SHELLS of pongamia pods since only 50%
by weight is kernel  the other half is shell, if the shells are utlised to
produce METHANOL then it will be a great idea to make biodiesel in India
pls. do give the full details if this is possible

 REGARDS''

 Shashi Kumar

 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

It




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[biofuel] Re: SVO/biodiesel blend /WVO the best way

[pan ruti]

 Helo Donaldo
 
 This is very important  and more relavant topic  to  bioenergy 
ruralization projects  always discussed here and the correct  good  formulae  
depends  on the  best economical cost minimium mixture of the locally available 
fuel..Keith can through much information on this topics  as  he has  good very 
long  experience in this field and we are  late comer here , as many old 
archives are available too in this topics.Our all list members  need to  have  
debate  and participation  on this important topics.It is good to have old 
information circulated in this field by Keith to make  this tpoic alive , not 
to foget .

   This is my personel opinion that biodeisel need to be placed as  teh 
powerful additive to make possible  100 porcent biofuel in diesel engine  
without major  modifications   using blend or mixture rather than 100 % BD as 
this will be much costly process  than simple mixture.
   As much electronics kits are coming good combustion can be possible with 
leeser proceesing and more over installing Biodiesel project  in rural area  is 
a big problems.
 
   Recently I visited a small rural place called Santa Barbara   in Sao 
Paulo State,Brasil after attending international workshop on energy and ecology 
there..
 By using  small screw press,  sunflower oil is obtained, then clarified 
using gravity cloth filter ,making very clear and clean  oil. This is mixed , 
30 porcent ,with petro refinary diesel  of 65 porcent and also  5 porcent 
gasoline to run tractor  for a long time an year with out problems.This  the 
best one that work here well.
  Surely Biodeisel can improve the lubrification and hence make it possible 
to use  the gasoline or  alchol , forming micro emulsion, can be  very well   
used as  the agent to reduce  viscosity  as well as improving the  oxygen  
content  of the fuel too, thus even possivel to use  hidrated alcohol 
significantly , all being renawable  biofuel.
Good  fuel  with higher O2 content can easily degrade glycerine and  soot 
formation problems  wel pointed out here  earlier by our other member.
 As our leader  Faith  used  to very wellpoint out  we (the Phd),  the 
academics  from university lab and campus . thus  can  give  only  
theoritically  formulations  like the one here   as thesis of  the 
universities,.This can be the starting point  to arrive  practical formulations 
of totally renewable , locally made  and low cost  , least maintainace blend og 
variety of biofuel . Pure  VO  can be also included  to gother with  waste 
spent used oil too depending on the local availability
 
We wish to do  theoritical  modeling using linear programming and wish to 
have   the colaborations  as the most of the micoemulsion formulas are  
patented one.
By sharing the informations . it is possivel  to come up with practical formula 
 for the poorer area where ther is no light , no energy and no TV , only  
poverty and struglle for food and energy.
In this context, any colaboration from our list members are welcome, 
especialy from India where  small scale alcohol producers are banned  not to 
use this as rum to spoil the health , but  can be  make possible the use of 
this  hidrated alcohol, biodisel as  powerful additives tomake 100 porcente 
renewable decentalised small scale rural energy production possible as well as 
the globalized world more united and sustainable.
All our list member can make this possible too to have green future with 
biofuel.
 
 Yours  faithfuly
Pannirselvam
 
   
   

 

Donald Allwright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Here in the UK commercial biodiesel costs about the same as dinodiesel,
and I don't have the facilities to produce my own at the moment. So I
was wondering about the possibility of using a blend of SVO and
biodiesel, in order to reduce my running costs, as SVO should be
cheaper than an equivalent amount of biodiesel. Has anyone done this?
What ratios have you used? Any problems?

I've looked at the journeytoforever.org website and many of the linked
articles, and there seems to be a lot of discussion of pure SVO using a
dual tank system with preheating, and some discussion of blends of SVO
with dinodiesel, but none of a blend of SVO and biodiesel. So my
question is, would a blend using biodiesel be any better/worse than a
blend using dinodiesel?

It seems that viscosity is the main problem with SVO that leads to
incomplete combustion and other problems, and with dinodiesel blends a
practical limit of 20% seems to be prudent. However as biodiesel has a
much better lubricity than dinodiesel, would this make it a better
blend? What is the relationship between lubricity and viscosity, or are
they totally separate properties?

I've been running for about 400 miles now on a blend of dino-diesel and
25% biodiesel without problems, and will shortly up this to 50%. I'm
contemplating trying a blend of 20% SVO (of good quality, not WVO) and
biodiesel but am not sure if this would be wise. 

Re: [biofuel] Sacred Animal and biofuel group

[pan ruti]

 will disagree. Again, it's hard to 
understand energy issues without a good understanding of the very 
complex situation(s) in the Middle East, where there's so much 
overlap between energy issues, political and geopolitical issues, 
and, yes, religious issues. Similarly, the upcoming election in the 
US is crucial to future energy use and to progress with biofuels, but 
it's fraught with both politics and religion. If we keep clear of all 
this we'll end up with at best a superficial view that won't serve us 
well, at worst with downright wrong views that might do more harm 
than good. If we don't keep clear of it we have not only disagreement 
but furious arguments, anger, resentment, accusations and worse. 
(Much worse!) Somehow we have to steer a course through all this 
towards, hopefully, some clarity on the other side. So far we seem to 
have succeeded, and survived somehow.

We don't have much choice Pan. If the list is to have the focus you 
describe, which I think most of us here probably agree with (I 
certainly do), then we just have to take whatever comes our way and 
deal with it as best we can, with goodwill and clear intentions, and 
without losing sight of our purpose here. Or try to at least. Not 
always easy, but nobody said it would be easy. Can I say no false 
sacred cows without offending anyone?

Best wishes

Keith


Hallo,

As  soon  as  I  saw  this  mail  from Pan Ruti I knew that I had been
misunderstood  and  my  first  thought was to privately explain what I
meant   by  the  expression  sacred  cows   and  apologize  for  any
misunderstanding.   I did this immediately but upon reflection I think
it is not enough to do this privately.

English  is  the  primary language of this list but it is probably not
the first language of the majority of subscribers.  English idioms may
be  commonly  understood  by  those  of us with English as their first
language but it can and often is confusing, insulting and offensive to
others  whose familiarity with the language is not intimate.  This can
and  has  led to not only misunderstandings but hard feelings as well.

I  have  cautioned  myself  but  now  I  caution  other native English
speakers  to be careful how you phrase and explain things.  This is an
international  list  and  we  do  definitely  want  understanding  and
cooperation rather than misunderstanding and hostility.

For  those  of  you  not knowing what the idiom sacred cow means:  a
subject which one does not or is not allowed to discuss openly.

I  apologize  to any on the list who may have taken offense to my mail
due to a misunderstanding of my use of the English idiom.  I will take
more care in the future to be clear.

Happy Happy,

Gustl

Saturday, 26 June, 2004, 08:47:58, you wrote:

pr  To  all belowed members of biofuel

pr I am able to understand that our biofuel members have  diversity 
making this group much active and dynamic  but here, there  is also 
no need to  completly go away from  our group objetive ,
pr making dificult our  coordinator work  to interfer  as our group 
is too big and wide.Evey one  need to have this mind , otherwise  we 
all be wasting time reading useless  old data  , and no new
pr information , instead of  doing real work of puting  this 
valuble  information of biofuel work in practice to make our planet 
with much more green energy and green future , especially the poor
pr people of this world.
pr Cow is sacred or not , bring here debate on  religion , I do not 
know how useful this topic is.Our biofuel group , I feel need to be 
away from  topics which divide us , rather we need to have
pr network  that can  quickly transfer useful information to poor 
where energy problems making them more poor  in the several parts of 
the world. For the  poor  everything  become dificult
pr food,feed, fiber  , unsustainable,  the  rich people  becoming 
rich  with limited resoure..In this context  Biomass from plants , 
cows and animals  can be considered sacred if sustainabilty of
pr the whole system is considered.
pr  Let us have  big ecological  biofuel  network of the planet 
, as this is the real way to make  to save the planet , as not only 
the politics and religions.We, our group member  from south ,
pr north, east and west of the world , sharing the problems, making 
informationational flow  surely make not only make  our poor man 
the sacred one for all   but also the cow , every animal sacred
pr sutainable.Puting fire on the forest ,  making the forest land 
for growing the cow, exporting the cow  meat for away  is 
unsustainable the biomass production as well as bifuel production 
too. Our
pr group need not  to agree  upon sacred cow concept becuase of 
religion  as  Glist pointed out, but can  agrre that this cow  can 
give biomass residual , biogas , bioenergy  poduction with lowest
pr investments , rendering  world sustainabilty  and local 
development possible for many , not only for few who   care for the 
cow to eat only for them

[biofuel] Sacred Animal and biofuel group

[pan ruti]

 To  all belowed members of biofuel 
   
I am able to understand that our biofuel members have  diversity making this 
group much active and dynamic  but here, there  is also no need to  completly 
go away from  our group objetive , making dificult our  coordinator work  to 
interfer  as our group is too big and wide.Evey one  need to have this mind , 
otherwise  we all be wasting time reading useless  old data  , and no new 
information , instead of  doing real work of puting  this  valuble  information 
of biofuel work in practice to make our planet with much more green energy and 
green future , especially the poor people of this world.
Cow is sacred or not , bring here debate on  religion , I do not know how 
useful this topic is.Our biofuel group , I feel need to be away from  topics 
which divide us , rather we need to have network  that can  quickly transfer 
useful information to poor where energy problems making them more poor  in the 
several parts of the world. For the  poor  everything  become dificult 
food,feed, fiber  , unsustainable,  the  rich people  becoming rich  with 
limited resoure..In this context  Biomass from plants , cows and animals  can 
be considered sacred if sustainabilty of the whole system is considered.
 Let us have  big ecological  biofuel  network of the planet , as this is 
the real way to make  to save the planet , as not only the politics and 
religions.We, our group member  from south , north, east and west of the world 
, sharing the problems, making informationational flow  surely make not only 
make  our poor man  the sacred one for all   but also the cow , every animal 
sacred sutainable.Puting fire on the forest ,  making the forest land for 
growing the cow, exporting the cow  meat for away  is unsustainable the biomass 
production as well as bifuel production too. Our group need not  to agree  upon 
sacred cow concept becuase of religion  as  Glist pointed out, but can  agrre 
that this cow  can give biomass residual , biogas , bioenergy  poduction with 
lowest investments , rendering  world sustainabilty  and local development 
possible for many , not only for few who   care for the cow to eat only for 
them .We all need to have common objetive and vision  in our group as
 there is an urgent need  for the same , afterall , we all  want to make sucess 
 with biofuel projects.
In this context I
 believe  this is why there  can be  sacred cows here.  I see no hate from any 
 of the member for the same  as our list has the biodiversity.

This  is why we can  believe that cow can be considered sacred without 
any  anger , not the from the relgious vision .The Budha , who has shown first 
time that instead  of killing the sacred cow , make it possible to put the  
first hospital  to take of  the animal  before 500 B.C, as they are realy 
sacred as that of any sacred GOD if we all want sustainability of biosphere of 
our planet. . This is not religious hostory like our recent political history  
of the  senators  of the  powerful countrys  give green signal to kill not the  
animal  but also  human beings   based  on the sustainabilty of  fuel  but from 
ecological history relevant to our  group . This  ecoloical sustainability have 
been well clearly  the vision   for  maintaing our  large  ever growing group 
here  by the hard of our  gruop leader and coordinator  dedicated  work of 
KEITH  and his team  night and day without any  remunerations.. We all here 
need to help  reduce his  work load, of this  growing  list of
 our group  can be explosive  and very complex  to survive and sustain.
   All system which can not self organize can have low rate  of  survival like 
unsacred cow.
The same thing that  happen  every whwre  in the to unsacred cow , becuase the 
lack of information  can  happen to our group  if our member canot  self 
organize , objective  and colaborative, not  making coordinator work dificult  
andunsustainable our joint work on biofuel projet works.
   I hope Goustl  and  I still can work togthere in this group , as  we do 
agree  99 porecnt , not angry with not only the cow , why not all the animal, 
as our group objective is the smae for us , we not bringing here more work for 
beloved keith as I still can t understand how he  is abel to manage our group  
, as I am  not able to find time to read 20 porcent of the posted  letters of 
our group, but he is able to  reply  to so many  of our posted letters.He does  
dedicate  here doing  impossible things here and this  this making our group 
dynamic too.Let us all wish happy health and peacef to him and his team , as  
our network  can broke  without his dynamic oxigenation.
   I hope  my long reply do not  hurt any one as sacred things always bring 
peace and happiness and any angry.
  
 
sd
Pannirselvam 
BRAZIL 
 
  


 

balaji [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello Gustl,

I couldn't agree with you more. The ethic you advocate represents the best
of Emerson, Thoreau, 

Re: [biofuel] Trying to contact Dennis Ortiz

[pan ruti]

Very glad to get the kind letter and our group ,with 12 young students , who 
are all interested to work for rural developments tecnology.Surley our group 
want to have close relation with you .

My  other e mail is [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

 AND [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

   You can always reach as via  messenger yahoo or msn .

   LET US WORK TOGETHER  WITH APPROPRIATE TECNOLGY  FOR RURAL PEOPLE

www.ufrnet.br/biocombustivel
 YOURS KINDLY
PANNIRSELVAM


Jose Luis Hernandez Quisbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
To Dennis Ortiz:

I am a Bolivian University Mechanical Engineering teacher with many 
projects for the rural and low income urban people involving alternative 
energies. I would like to get your e mail to share my projects and the 
possibility to do something together.

Jose Luis Hern‡ndez
Universidad Mayor de San Andres
La Paz Bolivia
[EMAIL PROTECTED]





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Re: [biofuel] Media Coverage of Rural Issues in BRAZIL

[pan ruti]

  Our beloved Kind deicated  group  leader Keith,  observation of  small 
farmers income are simillar  and worst  in Brasil and South America as   the 
same as in the North America ,where as  the  big farmers here in Brazil alone 
is having 400  small aeroplanes  built for  soya protections  uder utized , 
where as the small farmer become much poor and rich farmer become much richer 
in America, leading several economic problems.
However here in Brasil there is good  media coverage  of rural  technolgy 
well prepared  so that the most of the  Brazilian love to see, understand , 
like serial  TV novels  with good quality making  rural media coverage  and 
technology difusion   to the remote area.Even uneducated rural small farmer 
understands the  media coverage. The rich and small farmer  all sit in sunday 
eraly mornig to see GLOBE TV canal  RURAL media coverage .Thus Brazilian rural 
economy is sutained inspite of the rapid  global large scale farming is trying 
to  destroy the rural sutained economy for all  to the hand only few.For you 
have an idea , the land of the whole rich in sugare cane and all the land of 
the small state like  Alogoas is belonging  to very few peoples (50).
  Because of the deicated jounalist  work in rural media coverage  , now 
the programme has been extende   to all the days.Tha other  Brasilian TV 
channel SBT  too now entered , other than central govenment educational TV.Thus 
Brazil media is doing the best work  in the rual area media coverage  as 
already Brazil is expanding the market with the coverage of TV Novel serial not 
only in America but also in the most part of Europe and Russia  with natural 
environmental built with in novels.
   
   Surely we need one  INTERNATIONAL  GLOBAL RURAL TV  channel  for the 
world..Keith , we in the group  can  think of  his Global world contact  here 
we have to move  and grow into  word dedicated Rural information Media forum  , 
shaping in the format of Brazilian sucessful  media coverage format , as here 
even the  city people like to see this programme,  can be made possivel in 
future .It depends not only our leader  Keith work , but all of of us the 
member .This TV chanel  need to be  for the small  for all the part of the 
world based onthe knowelege of our group members. Let us share our global 
experiences to solve the problemas  as the same problem of poor becoming poor 
and bigger  envolved in corruption to maintain the corportaion, as this   can 
not  sustain our world for long time .This TV  can bring peace  into the 
divided world of  poor  and rich , avoid  the future terror activity of have 
nots.
 
 Feel free to have contact with us , we can send examples of tis rural 
media coverage related to fish farming ,rural house building , alcohol 
production,   water storage , biogas , animal feed for semiarid raes , but all 
are inthe language protuguese .We can help to give information if any one need 
the this media coverage.Feel free to have contact to us for those who  are 
deeply involved inthe small scale farmers .Our world can be made better only if 
we  make the rural  area sustainable , but not by allowing exploitation of the 
big farmers.

Subject changed for clarity.

murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
snip 
 
  What I wanted to add was even a bit more offbeat.  I was thinking the
  other day of some of the excellent farming-related and rural-related
  posts that we sometimes see here and elsewhere.  And I was asking
  myself why we see relatively little coverage of such matters in major
  press-areas.  And I think it's in part because city-folks, including
  many journalists, have little but city-issues in front of their faces.
  So, even though they may want to take some interest in other issues,
  they go with the lifestyle and issues that present themselves readily
  rather than issues that might make a more well-rounded presentation
  and might appeal to a broader range of readers.  This is not to say
  this can't be changed in part just to try to figure out why there
  is (in my view) this disconnect where some challenging rural issues
  don't seem to get as much 4th estate coverage as I would have thought
  they warranted.

Like this?

The Agribusiness Examiner
March 16, 2004, Issue #331

Efficient U.S. Farmers Earning $100 Per Month In Annual Farm Income

Larry Mitchell, American Corn Growers Association: As we enter 
National Agriculture Week, celebrated this year from March 14 to 
March 20, we need to pause to say thank you to the men, women and 
families of American agriculture by drawing attention to the 
important role they play in our society.  We should also take time to 
reflect upon the productivity of America's farm families.  I think 
you will agree with me that it is worth much more than $100 a month.

According to USDA's definition, there are about two million farmers 
left in the U.S.  But that definition --- and I would never suggest 
changing it -- includes all 

RE: [biofuel] Re: Ethanol from sugar cane:Thebest and worst technolgy

[pan ruti]

 Thank you very much
 
   I am very  glad to know  about the product and process in your web site.
I wish your  work also here in northeast .Please  send  your catalag to us 
 
P.V.Pannirselvam
 


Terry Wilhelm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hello

Your email was great.  I have spent alot of time traveling to India and talking 
with people in the Punjab area about the production of alcohol using our 
distillers.

If you would be interested, I would be happy to send you our catalog for you to 
look at.

If you are interested please provide us with a mailing address.

Regards,

Terry Wilhelm

The Revenoor Co.

www.revenoor.com

[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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RE: [biofuel] Re: Ethanol from sugar cane:Thebest and worst technolgy

[pan ruti]

  I   being  dedicated research worker in Brazil  with PhD  in  Biochemical 
engineering  from India  about alcohol production from biomass from  one of the 
best research center in  Asia in 1980 , carefully following  the state of art  
this technology  several decads,feel  that the views of the Keith  is  
ecological and Luiz , genetic engineering  which are totally  totally 
different.Even though  I  belonged  unfortunately  this  breed of the  higher  
caste of  biotechnology tribes with limited kespealized kwnowelge  like Dr luiz 
, I am  fortunate enough to leave away  this caste.In india it is not possible 
to change the caste because they say genetica nad god made , but with the 
interation of the active  yahoo   biofuel group (high quality , vey ha limited  
experts group  and making great effort to  become an  ecological engineering 
student , rather than  to have limited specialist approach  like one that of Dr 
Luiz  approach   of genetic engineering , transgenics and hybrids .The
 biotechnology experts in general  do not try to see all aspects and understand 
 what is  natural ,simple , decentralized ecological system , not even  this 
natural ecological system developments.
   
   In  Brazil , all high  yielding projects  of fruits  and any crop   lead to 
total collapse of  the lands water leading  to degradation of  lands.
   The insects devastations  of mono crops of the Cotton  has lead to billion 
dollars until now  the real  reason for the poverty  of the  people who were 
rich  10 years ago.Yet no biotechnology experts has introduced new one here.
 
Brazil has  high yielding cassava , which can produce twice the  
alcohol.Yet, not able to make it possible  reality , as they used the same 
method to implement as that of  luiz , with enorme waste of money  eventhouh 
this has higher productivity , 2 time that of cane per ha.
 In India a lot  of alcohol made  in home scale micro distillery using 
biomass energy  cheaper and village leval pot distillation technolgy , with out 
any cane at all , using the palm tree can  help to make arrack killing people 
as food can be used as biofuel.No patent is there , not much literature, but 
every uneducated can make the biofuel.
 
This can be the best technology  as the yeast there can ferment everty 
thing.The best and  worst technolgy are very relative , change place to place.
 
 Dr luiz  really need to rethink  again  that the problem  of food , fuel 
,fertilizer, feed and food are inter connected to make  the whole thing work in 
Argo industrial system.Only one canot  be the best  system  to all the people , 
to all the country for all the the  time the best.
 
Biodiversity is less kwnown to many like Dr.Luiz. Any   less educated 
people  like  native tribal Indians  knows very well that  imported one; the 
hybrid, the transgenic, genetically modified are not better than naturally 
adopted local variety created by nature. There is great  debate in Brazil every 
where now a days   about the  way  the  biotechnology experts groups are trying 
to have rapid quick technological anda economical developments , in 
sustainablel for long time where the future generations  food and energy cannot 
be assured , as if matter the  present generation.
 
   Again , I  as an scientific  researcher on  behave of of the many of the 
members  fully agree with the Keith and wish that  our group need to focus the 
is so com objective  and  not an attack of personnel views and opinions. with 
out any base  and truth.
 
  I am sure that   my words represent the views of  many members who do not 
have time  not even to read all the important so many  biofuel information, 
imagine  how they can reply .
 
   Once  Again  best wishes Keith keep it up the correct critical  ecological 
thinking.
Your hard working  dedicated work can only be well understood to all the less 
developed one as you become the part  and parcel of it.When this large starving 
people can made his own food and fuel with  out importing fuel  using the road 
map  our group make , there can be great green future for all .
 
Sorry for my poor English, as I am way 20 years without the contact with the 
language .
 
 
 For all the members  the  best wishes andthe new happy yaer to all our 
biofuel group.

Thanking you
 
Truely
 
P.V.Pannrselvam
  
 
   
   
 
 
 


Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Luis R. Calzadilla wrote:

Wrong Keith:

You are wrong again Keith when you issue the following statement:

Wrong again, Keith when you utter:

Keith, who told you all the above?

Now, in reference to the yeast, you are wrong again, dear Keith:

Sorry Keith, but you have failed on all counts.

:-)

Heard it all before Luis, so many times, seen it all before too. I 
did expect this sort of response from you, it's fairly obvious that 
your thinking is locked to the industrialised, centralised, top-down, 
best-technology approach to both crop and energy production 

Re: [biofuel] Best wishes!

[pan ruti]

 On behalf of all Brazilian , Happy , Merry cristmas for all the members of 
this group to have  the great  green futur from green biomass  for all us and 
the all the world too to have biofuel .It depend on us to join hand and  give 
the hepling  hand for the same.
 
sd
P.V.Pannirselvam

Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Compliments of the season, Merry Christmas to the Christians among 
us, Happy New Year to all of us.

Best wishes

Keith  Midori
Journey to Forever


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Re: [biofuel] Brazil Ethanol

[pan ruti]

To 
 
  All members of  biofuel
   
  
  During energy crisis around 1980 , Brazilian government has implemented  the 
PRO ALCOHOL, national projects, even though  none of the most of the 
Multinational automobile company has not collaborated,made successfully the  
first motor which had high compression , but not  too high as diesel engine, 
made use of  local micro, mini, and macro distillery.More than 1 billion lire 
of alcohol ,the word largest biofuel has survived still today  because of the 
land resource, the Brazilian national petroleum company PETROBRAS quality 
control,the better fuel efficiency of the motor made  by Brazilian  research 
effort, the decentralized  production needed by the country.
We Brazilian , most of us do not believe  we are  poorer than  US, as the 
country is well blessed with the 40 % of the best land for agriculture , with 
plenty of water , all energy source are  available .Now Brazil is struggling  
to get out the poverty in in city area  talking with US to  stop  the policy 
against  importation  and policy of the huge aid given to  the bigger land  
owner  to produce agriculture goods and the higher interest of international 
banks which  are hepling to make the rich country as poor.
 FLEXIBLE BIOFUEL  LIKE BRASILIAN BIOETHANOL ARE NEEDED FOR ALL THE COUNTRY.
We Brazilian are more friendly  and open mind  to make the helping hand  all of 
you as we have the  microdistillary running with the lowest investments  with 
coproducts giving sutained local developmentos for food and fuel 
developments.In this context our group leader  KEITH  dedicated  hard work  to 
make  the link that can bring  all of us  the poor and rich together  to see 
the people in the dark see their first light need to extended by all of  we 
members.
   Our novel design about biogasand biooil  for pilot plant study are ready 
that will be posted  as  per wish of the Keith .
  PLEASE BEAR WITH ME FOR THE LON REPLY
 
 
   
 
sd
Pannirselvam P.V

Edward Mendoza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

20% of all vehicles in Brazil run on 100% ethanol. How is it that they are
so successful in implementing a renewable resource while they are a poorer
country than the U.S?

What are the arguments against converting all of the US to run 100% on
ethanol?

Thank you,

Edward Mendoza
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
707.537.7392
211 Hayman Court
Santa Rosa, CA 95409




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[biofuel] Slude, biosolid and stove

[pan ruti]

Pannir from Brazil  wrote :
 
  H2S seperation  is very interesting problem , that can  removed by mild 
alkali  using biologicla treatments  in photobioreactor by well estabelished 
industrail  Thiopack process.. this route is more simple and natural one than 
photo catalytical process where pure sulpher can be recovered.

 Keith recent work about stove is a novel inovative work with secondary 
air supply  , which our design group is also trying to do. We feel that small 
amount  of charcoal with vegetable oil or alcohol can improve  the starting 
problems. We feel that secondary air supply  at the top as per REED origional 
work and forced  air suply  at the top is can make  thermal effeiciency  to 
improved a lot as nearly 10 times of air are needed in a shorter time and with 
no emission problems too.Here in brasil , the biomass waste comes to 85 porcent 
, may be highest in the world  together with the bigest gap between poor and 
rich.
In this respect we try to transfer tecnology to rural area, but  most 
prefer the city  because of lack of simple tecnologies  like one that of keitk 
, small , apropriate , acessible.
   
 Is any one know apropriate tecnolgy for sludge biosolid  
processing ?
 

robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Keith Addison wrote:

  How about this then? Seems to tie it all together - poop of various
 ilk and the utilization thereof, along with hydrogen, Japan, and all
 the fish (but not Detroit):

 http://www.japanfs.org/db/database.cgi?cmd=dpnum=455UserNum=Pass=A

 dminPass=dp=data_e.html
 Japan for Sustainability

 New Development in Sendai to Create Hydrogen from Sewage Sludge


When feeding on a sugar solution in an anaerobic environment, the
bacteria normally responsible for producing methane will instead make
hydrogen.  I have done this experiment before and I know it works.  For
those of us who cannot do ethanol distillation because of legal issues,
this may be an alternative method to make some fuel.

 Tom Reed's BEF stove is pretty good, except for the batteries. Well,
 it's still pretty good, and pretty useful in poor countries even with
 the batteries, but it could go further if it didn't need them.

I have a solar panel powered battery charger that can easily
displace the battery on my stove.  Of course, it only works when the sun
shines, but with such a charger, the stove can be operated in the
darkness with the use of recharged NiCad or NiMH batteries

 I
 spent some time with the good folks on the Stoves list at CREST (oft
 frequented by Tom) trying to find a battery-free solution - for
 instance, how would you go about getting the heat of the stove to
 drive an air-supply fan? Didn't get anywhere with it though. Best
 offer was a clockwork fan. Second-best was a sort of party-pooper
 cushion or whatever it's called, filled with air, that the cook sat
 on while cooking, thus providing a steady stream of air for the stove
 until the cushion deflated.

I've experiemented with various tin can stoves.  My favorite one
consists of two cans creating an elbow, fitted into a larger can with
holes drilled into the bottom for smoke  to escape.  A shelf in the
horizontal part of the elbow allows air to feed the fire from below once
a pan is placed on the top of the large can, and the same shelf
enables the stove to be fueled continuously once it's lit.  This design
works well once it gets hot, but it's not that easy to get started.  I
once used such a stove on a trip into the mountains with friends.
With a single match and a handful of small twigs I could heat an entire
meal.  My friend built a huge bonfire and lit it with gasoline to get it
started.  He laughed at me, but I was shaking my head at him. . .  (I'm
from California, and I'm VERY LEERY of fire in wild places!)

 I did get this far though, and some
 aspects of this design have been taken up elsewhere:

 http://journeytoforever.org/teststove.html
 Cookstove for schools: Journey to Forever

This looks like a decent attempt, I would say.

  Tom once said about 25% of the
 science of these IDD gasifier stoves is known, and IMO there's a long
 way to go before they're widely applied. We're working on other
 answers, different approaches, quite promising.

Yes, he's pretty clever about this topic.  (I used to subscribe to
both stoves and gasification.  I learned a lot in those forums, but
most of the talk was simply beyond my understanding.)

 Anyway, Robert, please don't be deterred by your better half's
 rolling eyes nor by sci.energy.hydrogen's goldfishism. Don't forget,
 they laughed at Isaac Newton (or was it Alfred Neuman?).

My childhood hero was Robert Goddard.  Many scientists of his day
ridiculed his work in rocketry, but he solved all of the major problems
with liquid fueled rockets long before the Luftwaffe began lobbing V 2s
at London.   I wouldn't consider myself worthy of mention in the same
sentence with him!

 Fine
 critters, goldfish.

[biofuel] Slude, biosolid and stove

[pan ruti]

Pannir from Brazil  wrote :
 
  H2S seperation  is very interesting problem , that can  removed by mild 
alkali  using biologicla treatments  in photobioreactor by well estabelished 
industrail  Thiopack process.. this route is more simple and natural one than 
photo catalytical process where pure sulpher can be recovered.

 Keith recent work about stove is a novel inovative work with secondary 
air supply  , which our design group is also trying to do. We feel that small 
amount  of charcoal with vegetable oil or alcohol can improve  the starting 
problems. We feel that secondary air supply  at the top as per REED origional 
work and forced  air suply  at the top is can make  thermal effeiciency  to 
improved a lot as nearly 10 times of air are needed in a shorter time and with 
no emission problems too.Here in brasil , the biomass waste comes to 85 porcent 
, may be highest in the world  together with the bigest gap between poor and 
rich.
In this respect we try to transfer tecnology to rural area, but  most 
prefer the city  because of lack of simple tecnologies  like one that of keitk 
, small , apropriate , acessible.
   
 Is any one know apropriate tecnolgy for sludge biosolid  
processing ?
 

robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Keith Addison wrote:

  How about this then? Seems to tie it all together - poop of various
 ilk and the utilization thereof, along with hydrogen, Japan, and all
 the fish (but not Detroit):

 http://www.japanfs.org/db/database.cgi?cmd=dpnum=455UserNum=Pass=A

 dminPass=dp=data_e.html
 Japan for Sustainability

 New Development in Sendai to Create Hydrogen from Sewage Sludge


When feeding on a sugar solution in an anaerobic environment, the
bacteria normally responsible for producing methane will instead make
hydrogen.  I have done this experiment before and I know it works.  For
those of us who cannot do ethanol distillation because of legal issues,
this may be an alternative method to make some fuel.

 Tom Reed's BEF stove is pretty good, except for the batteries. Well,
 it's still pretty good, and pretty useful in poor countries even with
 the batteries, but it could go further if it didn't need them.

I have a solar panel powered battery charger that can easily
displace the battery on my stove.  Of course, it only works when the sun
shines, but with such a charger, the stove can be operated in the
darkness with the use of recharged NiCad or NiMH batteries

 I
 spent some time with the good folks on the Stoves list at CREST (oft
 frequented by Tom) trying to find a battery-free solution - for
 instance, how would you go about getting the heat of the stove to
 drive an air-supply fan? Didn't get anywhere with it though. Best
 offer was a clockwork fan. Second-best was a sort of party-pooper
 cushion or whatever it's called, filled with air, that the cook sat
 on while cooking, thus providing a steady stream of air for the stove
 until the cushion deflated.

I've experiemented with various tin can stoves.  My favorite one
consists of two cans creating an elbow, fitted into a larger can with
holes drilled into the bottom for smoke  to escape.  A shelf in the
horizontal part of the elbow allows air to feed the fire from below once
a pan is placed on the top of the large can, and the same shelf
enables the stove to be fueled continuously once it's lit.  This design
works well once it gets hot, but it's not that easy to get started.  I
once used such a stove on a trip into the mountains with friends.
With a single match and a handful of small twigs I could heat an entire
meal.  My friend built a huge bonfire and lit it with gasoline to get it
started.  He laughed at me, but I was shaking my head at him. . .  (I'm
from California, and I'm VERY LEERY of fire in wild places!)

 I did get this far though, and some
 aspects of this design have been taken up elsewhere:

 http://journeytoforever.org/teststove.html
 Cookstove for schools: Journey to Forever

This looks like a decent attempt, I would say.

  Tom once said about 25% of the
 science of these IDD gasifier stoves is known, and IMO there's a long
 way to go before they're widely applied. We're working on other
 answers, different approaches, quite promising.

Yes, he's pretty clever about this topic.  (I used to subscribe to
both stoves and gasification.  I learned a lot in those forums, but
most of the talk was simply beyond my understanding.)

 Anyway, Robert, please don't be deterred by your better half's
 rolling eyes nor by sci.energy.hydrogen's goldfishism. Don't forget,
 they laughed at Isaac Newton (or was it Alfred Neuman?).

My childhood hero was Robert Goddard.  Many scientists of his day
ridiculed his work in rocketry, but he solved all of the major problems
with liquid fueled rockets long before the Luftwaffe began lobbing V 2s
at London.   I wouldn't consider myself worthy of mention in the same
sentence with him!

 Fine
 critters, goldfish.

[biofuel] Slude, biosolid and stove

[pan ruti]

Pannir from Brazil  wrote :
 
  H2S seperation  is very interesting problem , that can  removed by mild 
alkali  using biologicla treatments  in photobioreactor by well estabelished 
industrail  Thiopack process.. this route is more simple and natural one than 
photo catalytical process where pure sulpher can be recovered.

 Keith recent work about stove is a novel inovative work with secondary 
air supply  , which our design group is also trying to do. We feel that small 
amount  of charcoal with vegetable oil or alcohol can improve  the starting 
problems. We feel that secondary air supply  at the top as per REED origional 
work and forced  air suply  at the top is can make  thermal effeiciency  to 
improved a lot as nearly 10 times of air are needed in a shorter time and with 
no emission problems too.Here in brasil , the biomass waste comes to 85 porcent 
, may be highest in the world  together with the bigest gap between poor and 
rich.
In this respect we try to transfer tecnology to rural area, but  most 
prefer the city  because of lack of simple tecnologies  like one that of keitk 
, small , apropriate , acessible.
   
 Is any one know apropriate tecnolgy for sludge biosolid  
processing ?
 

robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Keith Addison wrote:

  How about this then? Seems to tie it all together - poop of various
 ilk and the utilization thereof, along with hydrogen, Japan, and all
 the fish (but not Detroit):

 http://www.japanfs.org/db/database.cgi?cmd=dpnum=455UserNum=Pass=A

 dminPass=dp=data_e.html
 Japan for Sustainability

 New Development in Sendai to Create Hydrogen from Sewage Sludge


When feeding on a sugar solution in an anaerobic environment, the
bacteria normally responsible for producing methane will instead make
hydrogen.  I have done this experiment before and I know it works.  For
those of us who cannot do ethanol distillation because of legal issues,
this may be an alternative method to make some fuel.

 Tom Reed's BEF stove is pretty good, except for the batteries. Well,
 it's still pretty good, and pretty useful in poor countries even with
 the batteries, but it could go further if it didn't need them.

I have a solar panel powered battery charger that can easily
displace the battery on my stove.  Of course, it only works when the sun
shines, but with such a charger, the stove can be operated in the
darkness with the use of recharged NiCad or NiMH batteries

 I
 spent some time with the good folks on the Stoves list at CREST (oft
 frequented by Tom) trying to find a battery-free solution - for
 instance, how would you go about getting the heat of the stove to
 drive an air-supply fan? Didn't get anywhere with it though. Best
 offer was a clockwork fan. Second-best was a sort of party-pooper
 cushion or whatever it's called, filled with air, that the cook sat
 on while cooking, thus providing a steady stream of air for the stove
 until the cushion deflated.

I've experiemented with various tin can stoves.  My favorite one
consists of two cans creating an elbow, fitted into a larger can with
holes drilled into the bottom for smoke  to escape.  A shelf in the
horizontal part of the elbow allows air to feed the fire from below once
a pan is placed on the top of the large can, and the same shelf
enables the stove to be fueled continuously once it's lit.  This design
works well once it gets hot, but it's not that easy to get started.  I
once used such a stove on a trip into the mountains with friends.
With a single match and a handful of small twigs I could heat an entire
meal.  My friend built a huge bonfire and lit it with gasoline to get it
started.  He laughed at me, but I was shaking my head at him. . .  (I'm
from California, and I'm VERY LEERY of fire in wild places!)

 I did get this far though, and some
 aspects of this design have been taken up elsewhere:

 http://journeytoforever.org/teststove.html
 Cookstove for schools: Journey to Forever

This looks like a decent attempt, I would say.

  Tom once said about 25% of the
 science of these IDD gasifier stoves is known, and IMO there's a long
 way to go before they're widely applied. We're working on other
 answers, different approaches, quite promising.

Yes, he's pretty clever about this topic.  (I used to subscribe to
both stoves and gasification.  I learned a lot in those forums, but
most of the talk was simply beyond my understanding.)

 Anyway, Robert, please don't be deterred by your better half's
 rolling eyes nor by sci.energy.hydrogen's goldfishism. Don't forget,
 they laughed at Isaac Newton (or was it Alfred Neuman?).

My childhood hero was Robert Goddard.  Many scientists of his day
ridiculed his work in rocketry, but he solved all of the major problems
with liquid fueled rockets long before the Luftwaffe began lobbing V 2s
at London.   I wouldn't consider myself worthy of mention in the same
sentence with him!

 Fine
 critters, goldfish.

[biofuel] Slude, biosolid and stove

[pan ruti]

Pannir from Brazil  wrote :
 
  H2S seperation  is very interesting problem , that can  removed by mild 
alkali  using biologicla treatments  in photobioreactor by well estabelished 
industrail  Thiopack process.. this route is more simple and natural one than 
photo catalytical process where pure sulpher can be recovered.

 Keith recent work about stove is a novel inovative work with secondary 
air supply  , which our design group is also trying to do. We feel that small 
amount  of charcoal with vegetable oil or alcohol can improve  the starting 
problems. We feel that secondary air supply  at the top as per REED origional 
work and forced  air suply  at the top is can make  thermal effeiciency  to 
improved a lot as nearly 10 times of air are needed in a shorter time and with 
no emission problems too.Here in brasil , the biomass waste comes to 85 porcent 
, may be highest in the world  together with the bigest gap between poor and 
rich.
In this respect we try to transfer tecnology to rural area, but  most 
prefer the city  because of lack of simple tecnologies  like one that of keitk 
, small , apropriate , acessible.
   
 Is any one know apropriate tecnolgy for sludge biosolid  
processing ?
 

robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Keith Addison wrote:

  How about this then? Seems to tie it all together - poop of various
 ilk and the utilization thereof, along with hydrogen, Japan, and all
 the fish (but not Detroit):

 http://www.japanfs.org/db/database.cgi?cmd=dpnum=455UserNum=Pass=A

 dminPass=dp=data_e.html
 Japan for Sustainability

 New Development in Sendai to Create Hydrogen from Sewage Sludge


When feeding on a sugar solution in an anaerobic environment, the
bacteria normally responsible for producing methane will instead make
hydrogen.  I have done this experiment before and I know it works.  For
those of us who cannot do ethanol distillation because of legal issues,
this may be an alternative method to make some fuel.

 Tom Reed's BEF stove is pretty good, except for the batteries. Well,
 it's still pretty good, and pretty useful in poor countries even with
 the batteries, but it could go further if it didn't need them.

I have a solar panel powered battery charger that can easily
displace the battery on my stove.  Of course, it only works when the sun
shines, but with such a charger, the stove can be operated in the
darkness with the use of recharged NiCad or NiMH batteries

 I
 spent some time with the good folks on the Stoves list at CREST (oft
 frequented by Tom) trying to find a battery-free solution - for
 instance, how would you go about getting the heat of the stove to
 drive an air-supply fan? Didn't get anywhere with it though. Best
 offer was a clockwork fan. Second-best was a sort of party-pooper
 cushion or whatever it's called, filled with air, that the cook sat
 on while cooking, thus providing a steady stream of air for the stove
 until the cushion deflated.

I've experiemented with various tin can stoves.  My favorite one
consists of two cans creating an elbow, fitted into a larger can with
holes drilled into the bottom for smoke  to escape.  A shelf in the
horizontal part of the elbow allows air to feed the fire from below once
a pan is placed on the top of the large can, and the same shelf
enables the stove to be fueled continuously once it's lit.  This design
works well once it gets hot, but it's not that easy to get started.  I
once used such a stove on a trip into the mountains with friends.
With a single match and a handful of small twigs I could heat an entire
meal.  My friend built a huge bonfire and lit it with gasoline to get it
started.  He laughed at me, but I was shaking my head at him. . .  (I'm
from California, and I'm VERY LEERY of fire in wild places!)

 I did get this far though, and some
 aspects of this design have been taken up elsewhere:

 http://journeytoforever.org/teststove.html
 Cookstove for schools: Journey to Forever

This looks like a decent attempt, I would say.

  Tom once said about 25% of the
 science of these IDD gasifier stoves is known, and IMO there's a long
 way to go before they're widely applied. We're working on other
 answers, different approaches, quite promising.

Yes, he's pretty clever about this topic.  (I used to subscribe to
both stoves and gasification.  I learned a lot in those forums, but
most of the talk was simply beyond my understanding.)

 Anyway, Robert, please don't be deterred by your better half's
 rolling eyes nor by sci.energy.hydrogen's goldfishism. Don't forget,
 they laughed at Isaac Newton (or was it Alfred Neuman?).

My childhood hero was Robert Goddard.  Many scientists of his day
ridiculed his work in rocketry, but he solved all of the major problems
with liquid fueled rockets long before the Luftwaffe began lobbing V 2s
at London.   I wouldn't consider myself worthy of mention in the same
sentence with him!

 Fine
 critters, goldfish.

Re: [biofuels-biz] Fwd: [biofuel] Mixing times for complete reactions - was Re: Max capacity

[pan ruti]

  Helo to gobie ,Paul and Miller
 
We are interested to  design the use of  solar enegy instead of wood as 
fuel  and looking for the innovative design. Is there any one who already have 
done this design  for recirculation using thermo siphon  without pump , solar 
heating, product separation on the top using cyclone   and recirculation of 
catalyst.Will  this method   useful compared to conventional  method. A good 
discussion  and exchange of practical  work in this field can be  much useful 
tall of us .Can our Keith bring here some new  information   and any one  new 
internet  sites ,  smallscale experiments 
 
Regards
   Pannir

gobie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

- Original Message -
From: jimmiller5417 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Has any successfully used a small  recirculating pump to mix
 during the reaction time?   A 1/4 hp Grunfos with nitrile, brass or
 other impellers should work.  The amount of electricity used
 would be low.  The  pump outlet  would lead to a circular
 manifold at the bottom of the tank with a inlet manifold near the
 top of the tank, submerged in the oil.

 Jim Miller

Jim I'm planning on upscaling to reactor using an old gear pump (available,
not choice).
Intend to pump from bottom to top, temperature maintained by either
electrical element from cloths drier strapped to metal pipe or coil of pipe
in tub of hot water.
Interesting that you intend to draw from below surface and deliver to
bottom. What advantages do you think that would have and how would you stop
the methanol and catalyst rich glycerine from settling below the input from
the circular manifold. My intention is to keep the glycerine mixed in
throughout the mixing time to allow all the reactants to bump into each
other.

Regards
Paul Gobert.



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Re: [biofuel] bio fuel and biodiesel, what is that

[pan ruti]

 Hello  Hari
  
Biofuel  include  all ,  the wood gas   biogas, methane; the hydrogen 
gas  as well wood gas(CO,H2,CH4)  and  producer gas; the ammonia gas; the 
liquid one  the ethanol, methanol, bio oil (wood) , biodeisel (ester of 
vegetable oil)   and  all solid combustivel derived from biomass and  also 
solar energy.
 
sd
Pannirselvam
 


Hari Satriyo Basuki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dear Netters,
I got confusing about the differences between bio diesel and bio fuel.
In my understanding they are the same. Is that right? Biodiesel and
biofuel is gasoline for car and truck from biooil (methanol from corn
and other vegetables), waste oil and other.
The mailing list are biofuel but the members talk about biodiesel.
Does anyone can help me to clarify this matter?
Thanks


-- 
Best regards,
Harimailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: [biofuel] Biogas question

[pan ruti]

  Hello Kim, Caroline  and beloved  biofuel  group members  
 
It is possible to collect the gas from septic tanks, from garbage , from  
lagoons where septic tanks effluents are disposed.Thus we can make  our planet 
clean , not  leading the methane gas heating of the world and  getting useful 
biofuel from waste  
 
 Biogas  and  fertilizer production in china using simple technology is  very 
successful one  in community level , in a small scale  house hold level , where 
 women work for lean technology is well respected for feeding the tanks  and 
the  careful disposal effluents using aquatic plants as well  outlined by 
Keith.Thus ,we need to integrate the  biogas technology  integrated with the  
thermolitic  composting  as well as postreatments of effluents. This integrated 
 projects can be more successful one 
 
 Blessing green future from biomass
 
sd
P.V.Pannirselvam
Kim  Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Humanure is great for fertilizer, I have been using it for almost 2 
years.  The key to using carnivorous manure is thermolitic composting 
techniques.  I am sure Keith can give a better answer, and he has lots of 
information on journeytoforever.org about this kind of composting.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 05:08 AM 7/11/2003 +0200, you wrote:

I also like to know about the septic tank and if we would get
biogas. Fertilizer is an other thing and I was always told by
farmers that human excrements did not produce good fertilizer,
because it was produced by meat eaters, it had to be mixed
with cow dung or similar. The best fertilizer would come from
grass eaters, like cows, horses, etc. At that time I was not
thinking about it.

I have an old 3 chamber septic, with the overflow going to the
sewer treatment. It is always an airing pipe to them, so if I
put a plastic bag on it, would I collect biogas? I think that this
is the question Caroline wanted answer on. I never tested it,
so I do not know the answer. Huge amount of water is there.

Hakan

At 01:13 PM 7/10/2003 -0700, you wrote:
   Helo caroline
 
Eventhough  the methane bacteria works well to produce  biogas,
  the  huge amount of  water  as well as the  the need to mix and dispose
  of the effluents , and  the need to  feed and  dispose of
  quality   effluent make  the project much complex and  the project not
  very  simple.Here in Brasil, for  rural area ,  good research are  done
  by EMBRAPA to  use 3 smalll tanks  filled  with cow dung manure  to
  make  biofertilizer from septic tank efluents  of good quality.
 I feel yet there is need for group such as our biofuel  as well as the
  information flow  so that we can really make it as simple as you think.
  Surely  it is possible  to make  the complex problem to be  as  simple as
  you think , but yet  few working good model are  simple  and economical 
 one.
 
 sd
 P.V.Pannirselvam
 
 
 Grahams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In doing some research for my 4-H solar class, I came across a simple
 biogas experiment.
 http://www.re-energy.ca/t-i_biomassbuild-1.shtml
 
If biogas production basically involves just mixing poop and water, and
 letting it sit for a while, why is there not some attachment or something
 made to install on top of everyday septic tanks that would collect the gas?
 Caroline






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Re: [biofuel] Biogas question

[pan ruti]

 Helo caroline
 
  Eventhough  the methane bacteria works well to produce  biogas, the  
huge amount of  water  as well as the  the need to mix and dispose of the 
effluents , and  the need to  feed and  dispose of quality   effluent make  the 
project much complex and  the project not very  simple.Here in Brasil, for  
rural area ,  good research are  done by EMBRAPA to  use 3 smalll tanks  filled 
 with cow dung manure  to make  biofertilizer from septic tank efluents  of 
good quality.
   I feel yet there is need for group such as our biofuel  as well as the 
information flow  so that we can really make it as simple as you think. Surely  
it is possible  to make  the complex problem to be  as  simple as you think , 
but yet  few working good model are  simple  and economical one.
 
sd
P.V.Pannirselvam
 

Grahams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In doing some research for my 4-H solar class, I came across a simple 
biogas experiment.
http://www.re-energy.ca/t-i_biomassbuild-1.shtml

  If biogas production basically involves just mixing poop and water, and 
letting it sit for a while, why is there not some attachment or something 
made to install on top of everyday septic tanks that would collect the gas?
Caroline



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Re: [biofuel] Biogas and glycerin - was To Chris problems sep. glycerine

[pan ruti]

Hello , dear and respected KEITH  and TODD
 
  Well  
Thank you all, bringing the composting or biodigestion problems  of 
cock tails or purified  glycerin.I am pesonaly against treating glycerin  as  
waste, but need to be  treated as raw material  for making soap, making   
polishing  adhesivos pastes  with  glycerinated starch, cosmetics formulations 
after  simple  seperations outlined by Keith . These are possible to  arrive  
at  local market before thinking of disposal as waste . Our biofuel group need 
to also have think of bioproducts as  future vision. Thus this liquid  waste  
can  be  the  raw material for the production of hih value  biosurfactant  and 
high valued yeast  products .These products  can be  obtained  and also has 
potencial  in near feature. These several products approach the  fuel, feed, 
food fine chemical can  make the  the integrated process more  economical as 
well as ecological.One man waste can , other man  rich products and hence good 
smallscale indusrial ecology.The Brasilian ethanol  survive  
 making not only fuel , but also, sugar the animal feed from  suagre can 
bagasse,  fertilizer from  stillage , and  fuel from waste bagasse even in 
micro distillary and now also attempting make fish from waste water, all small 
scale  INDUSTRIAL ECOLOGY DEVELOPMENTS . Thus the fuel making  can also  be 
well  linked to food , feed , fertilizer too.This interrelated ,cyclic  
ecolgical system approach, are very key for the sucess of any sustainable 
biofuel process developments.
 
   We can also imagine simillar  approach  and process can  be made possible 
with vegetable oil refinary too , making biodeisel as byproducts  from  major 
soya and other oil crop  products.Here  the design problems of  solid state 
fermentations of aerobic and  anerobics  biodigestion can be the key system . I 
personelly feel after Keith interesting reply here, that the biodigester can be 
made  to make all the wastes into fuel ,or feed  or fertelizer.It is like the 
flexible car , many input   can be put together to turn into desired products.
 
   Several simple  low cost composting  system are under operation  with 
recycling of microbes very easily  for large scale garbage treatments in 
Brasil.If any one need detail we will be ready to send them to apply to 
glucerin waste, but not hot composting.How ever hot composting, novel 
biodigestion can be combined to recover fertilizer, feed and fuel in order to 
make the biofuel process sustainable.
  Some yeast like candida can also accept directly FFA and glycerol growing 
fast  in semisolid fermentation  producing biosrfactants, which can be  futher 
fermented  and recovered  after hot composting, and noval  biodigestions with 
fiberous vegetable materials , making the  system more  flexible . This system  
is yet to be experimented, even though look like complex one.
 Any critical analysis of this system  outlined here are  wellcome and I  
hope the points raised here  can make a new  road map to  reality of the the 
future work.This can be yet with  cock tail approach or refining approach.After 
neutralizatation , one may use  diluted cock tails to make  noval 
bioproduts.This is very interesting route too.
   But  what are  the best route  and best products ?.May be our KEITH OR TODD  
can 
help to find this one.Why not all the member of biofuel group too  have brain 
storming to come out the best one, not simply leaving this job  to only few.Too 
many cooks need not always spoil the  eggs, but can help to  make the eggs  
less harmful to all with the hep of the nework and  keith and todd of course.
I am very sorry for this long letter and wish to be very  short in future.
 
Thanking you all
 
Sd
Pannirselvam
  
 
  

Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello Todd

Hello Keith,

We've done a lot of the same work here. Haven't gotten down to the nitty
gritty of fabricating a Babbington or Turk burner, but we have shipped out
the soap/glycerin/alcohol/caustic to a company that distributes the Clean
Burn brand of waste oil boilers and heaters for a test burn.

Results came back positive for the cocktail, as had previous results for
WVO, Ohio crude straight out of the ground, biodiesel and SVO.

These units are designed to burn waste motor oil, used transmission and
hydraulic fluids. Largely the same principal as the Babbington - increased
air supply in the combustion chamber.

We are concerned with a couple of aspects with such industrial models. One
is their cost, which is out of range of almost anyone in the residential
sector. Two is the long term corrosive effects of the catalyst portion of
the cocktail on expensive machinery.

Yes, that's our conclusion too. Someone we know has just scored a 
couple of these things for very little because they suddenly became 
illegal in that country - they're refurbished etc, and he's going to 
use them. I think they're overkill for what most of us are doing. So 
I'm 

Re: [biofuel] Glycerine

[pan ruti]

Helow  Greg and April

 Surely it will produce biogas, but you need to be careful about salts, acids 
alchol contenet within correct limit together with  C/N  ratio.there are good 
experimental work 
work about the use of fatty oil in biodigestion , all metabolized via 
glicerol.But you also need adopt the methane microbes  slowly to the 
glycerine.This mean  after adptation  the 
biodigestor can work well.
 
sd
Pannirselvam
Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Does anyone know what would happen to Glycerine, if added to a methane
digester?  Would it gum up  the works, or would it  digest  ?

Greg H.


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Re: [biofuel]Pre-treatments of cellulosic biomass to improve the Biogas technologies

[pan ruti]

Helo   
   Dear and respected Keith addison
 
Thank you very much for your latest excellent  INFORMATION ABOUT 
INTEGERATION OF COMPOSTING AND BIODIGESTION.In this regard, Bate work and your 
observations are very relavent  important  one to rethink  and well 
understanding  for all  who want to work with  biogas technology.
There are significant material loss in aerobic composting upto  20 
porcent as CO2.
Hence our approach not  included this step, but use anerobic process using  the 
anerobic bacteria in the effluent , growing this bacterias and   recycling the 
same to  render  polymeric degradation.This  bioprocess pretreatment is to 
accelerate   the  methane biodigestion. From your observation and  Bate work 
,precomposting at high temperature   can  be also as effetive as our approach 
and we will include this  in our future design. This three stage process  of 
aerobic thermofilic composting , anerobic hydrolysis , followed  by  
biodigestion  can treat all type  of the  wastes in to fuel , if properly 
understood, designed and operated .
  Excellent low cost  accelerated  composting work is going on in 
brasil  related with garbage, if any one need we can  pass on the relevent 
information, thus possible to include into  biogas projects.
More over  the biogas tecnology can be also used to transform impure gas 
co, co2  and H2 pyrolysis  or wood gasification  very easily tranformed into 
methane.
Thus mehane will be  real economic  and ecologuically correct fuel  , can 
easily combined togther with  other biodiesel, biooil and alcohol .
 
  Thank you  again for  brinking the excellent practical work of Bate  
to our group .The BIOGAS  is not the fuel of the future , but it has potencial  
for the present annd future  not only for the poor country but also the 
developed one,  as this make it  possible wealth from waste.We need  to make 
this fact spread all over the world by  bringing together all our group 
expererience together, so that  ALL CAN HAVE THE BIOMASS ENERGY  WITH GREAT 
GREEN FUTURE WITHOUT NEED FOR WAR , BUT  BRINGING PEACE  TO  GLOBALIZED WORLD.
   LET ALL THE MEMBER OF THE BIOFUEL JOINT HAND TOWARDS  THIS  END WITH  THE 
DEDICATED WORK OF OUR BELOVED  KEITH ADDISION. LET US JOIN  TO MAKE THIS AS BIG 
MOVIMENTS.
 
   BEST WISHES AND SUCCES  
 
SD 
Pannirselvam
 
 

Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dear Pannirselvam

Dear and respected  Keith  Addision

   Thank you  very much about your keen interest about biogas 
technology  developments.Your  constant help about  several internet 
useful link are making us to learn a lot.i am very sorry not very 
clear some points
 I beleive  the sucess of any group depends on the person who 
need to be not only co-ordinator , doorman , but above all  the 
leadership quality too , because all of us are participating 
voluentary work.

... well, okay... :-)

The group is  moving in correct direction .

That's the important bit, thankyou!

   Solid residues from food , agricultural wastes and  any 
vegatable wastes are  made of  natural polymeric materials such asd 
cellulose, lignin and hemicellulose .They are  dificult to be 
attacked by microbes OR ENZYMES , thus need long time for 
bioderadation  and  hence need  treatments befor biodegradations. 
Mecanical, themal , chemical treatments used before biodigestion are 
known as pretreatments.
   Biogas can be poduced  form lingocellulosics  but need 120 
days, thus not economically desirable.
   Biodigestion  is possible using some solid residues  examplo, 
food waste   as  it is , without any need for pretreatments , but 
fibrous and  woody residues need to be pretreated to improve  the 
process.

Why not pre-composting? I'm not nearly as familiar (yet) with biogas 
as with composting, but I think the parameters are similar except for 
aeration and moisture content. More intractable materials will break 
down very rapidly in a thermophyllic (hot) compost pile if the 
overall C:N ratio is somewhere between 25:1 and 35:1, moisture 
content about 65-70% and with a plentiful air supply (preferably from 
underneath). Such a compost pile will reach at least 60 deg C (or 
much more) in a day or two; a few days to a week under such 
conditions would prepare such materials for a biogas digester, only 
requiring increased moisture content.

Mechanical treatment would be shredding to increase the surface area, 
and perhaps stirring to increase aeration. With composting both these 
can be useful but are certainly not necessary.

It seems you're managing to treat food wastes directly without 
pre-treatment because the C:N ratio is already within the correct 
parameters; cellulose material needs the addition of nitrogenous 
material, such as manure, fresh green plants, etc. Correcting the C:N 
ratio might be simpler and more economical than pre-treatments.

I think pre-treatments would be an extra step, a deterrent to the 
technology being taken up at 

Re: [biofuel] Biogas technologies

[pan ruti]

 Dear and respected  Keith  Addision
 
   Thank you  very much about your keen interest about biogas technology  
developments.Your  constant help about  several internet useful link are making 
us to learn a lot.i am very sorry not very clear some points
 I beleive  the sucess of any group depends on the person who need to be 
not only co-ordinator , doorman , but above all  the leadership quality too , 
because all of us are participating voluentary work.The group is  moving in 
correct direction .
  
   Solid residues from food , agricultural wastes and  any vegatable wastes 
are  made of  natural polymeric materials such asd cellulose, lignin and 
hemicellulose .They are  dificult to be attacked by microbes OR ENZYMES , thus 
need long time for bioderadation  and  hence need  treatments befor 
biodegradations. Mecanical, themal , chemical treatments used before 
biodigestion are known as pretreatments.
   Biogas can be poduced  form lingocellulosics  but need 120 days, thus 
not economically desirable.
   Biodigestion  is possible using some solid residues  examplo, food waste 
  as  it is , without any need for pretreatments , but fibrous and  woody 
residues need to be pretreated to improve  the process.
 We will be surely give full details  in future , as yet our design work is 
going on very slowly.
 
 sd
Pannisrselvam
   


Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello Pannirselvam

Hello Eong and Keith addision

Thank you  for your keen interest  about the  more discussion of 
biogas here in  yahoo biofuel group , which our small  research 
group in Brasil also believes too have good green future , in 
addition to bio oil and bidiesel of real  energy economy where as H2 
will be the virtual one using this real energy carrier .The simple 
bioreactor can also recover energy from  waste of urban , 
agricultural and animal  of alltypes , including the glycerine and 
ester , if properly designed.

We're working on integrating biogas digestion and composting (hot 
compost, aerobic, thermophyllic) along with biofuels production - I 
think they all fit together very well, and can be adapted to fit 
almost anywhere, with or without the biofuels production bit, as 
required.

Our group  is designing  biodigester horizontal rectangular 
tanque WITH locally made bricks or sand ciment blocks, covered 
rectangular plasic sheet suported by plastic nets all housed under 
rectangular wooden box, all to making use of local materials and 
manpower.

Do you have any photographs, or drawings? What are the capacities, 
production, etc?

   The gas generated can be compreesed  and put in gas cylinder 
of cooking gas, all are available in all the  place of Brasil.

How do you compress it? Small-scale compression seems to be an 
obstacle - if it could easily be overcome then we could include 
methane as a mobile fuel as well as a static energy source. As here, 
for instance - Robert referred to this link:

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/methane_bate.html
Put a chicken in your tank

This is from one of the stories about Harold Bate:

Bate has fitted his digester tank with a safety valve set for 60 
p.s.i. just in case. Pressures in the extractor seldom reach a 
third that level, however, because Harold considers a digester 
internal pressure of 20 p.s.i. to be the signal to start up a 
high-pressure compressor (of the type used for filling aqualung 
diving bottles) and pump the collected gas from the extractor into an 
ordinary high-pressure bottle. 

A filter between the digester and pressure bottle extracts the small 
quantities of phosphoric acid and ammonia that are present and the 
remaining almost-pure methane liquefies at a pressure of 1110 p.s.i. 

Bate finds that it takes about one-half hour of steady pumping to 
fill a 32-pound (4.5 Imperial gallon) bottle to its capacity of 
liquid methane. This figures out to approximately 200 cubic feet of 
dry gas... or a fuel equivalent of seven gallons of good petrol 
(about eight and three-quarter gallon of high-test gasoline, to 
readers in the US)...

Is this feasible locally, or something like it?

 The solid resdiues are fermented  aerobically after milling 
using seleted strain of fungus to accelerate composting using little 
urea, then  the composted materials are solubilzed  using bacterias 
grown  with the solution of the out put of the biodigesters.

 THIS TWO STAGE BIOLOGICAL PRETREATMENTS CAN BE EASILY 
IMPLEMENTED TO MAKE FUEL FROM BIODEGRABLE SOLID RESIDUES , 
AGRICULTURAL, URBAN AND  ANIMAL WASTES.

Sorry, I don't understand this - solid residues? You mean the manure 
etc? What is the purpose of the pretreatment? Is it really necessary 
- why not just put it straight into the digester?

The compressed biogas can easily suppliment with biodisel and 
bioiol made from bimass in rural areas.This can be aapropriate 
ecological solution under  developing  stage by our small research 
groups.

   

RE: [biofuel] biogas storage

[pan ruti]

  You can use bamboo fiber cement as cover to give support  togother with  the 
natural animal hide, for the biogas storage  using the same techniques of 
making inforced ferous cement , which involve  well known tecnology .Yet few 
inovative work is known in this field, that  well estabilized, as all may have 
the problem of leakage of gas.Here in brasil , cheaper man made fiberglass 
cover are working in rural areas.

ONG San Guan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Hi Robert and all,

Remember the folks applying the technology is from the abject poor area of
the Mekong Watershed ( Highland areas ) Region cover countries like Myanmar,
Laos, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia and part of Western Provinces of Tibet,
Yunnan, Sichuan and Guangxi. Can goat/cow hide be a reasonable substitute
for rubber bladders or drums?

Pardon me if I sound stupid as an urban Singaporean trying to think through
all the rural problems to solve to get a product which is idiot proof. The
beneficiaries have tribal habits which will take some time to climb up the
technology ladder to be savvy like you and me in using modern applicators.


Regards···.EONG



_

-Original Message-
From: Robert Mills [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 23 June 2003 11:48
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [biofuel]

Storage of the biogas on a temporary basis, a day or two,  can be
accomplished as eaisly as using a big rubber or similar material bladder or
similar type of expandable device which will also control the gas pressures
more uniformly. An expandable device made of stronger materials and not
exposed to UV rays will probably last for 50 years or more.

Large metal drums, 10,000 gallon and bigger, with one placed over the top of
another and sealed in the middle with a big o-ring are a common site in the
area of Sacramento, Ca. Their primary usage is to buffer the amount of gas
flowing in the line next to them and also smooth out the pressure
differences.

Bob

ONG San Guan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi,

Interestingly enough on the Highlands of Yunnan Province of China, human and
animal waste are dumped together to produce biogas intentionally.  This gas
is then piped into kitchen stove for preparing the three mails. This is the
substitute to having to chop off branches and trees for fire wood, a very
traditional method which is more akin to the tribal instinct.

The next stage is to find a storage alternative rather than direct piping of
the gas which can be a mis-match; high pressure time when more methane gas
is generated and the household is not using it and vice versa.  How do you
extract the methane gas and store the compressed air into container in a
rural environment in a cost effective manner?


Regards..EONG





-Original Message-
From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 23 June 2003 01:04
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel

snip

As to Pieter Kools question,  If the excreatment ( can we say that on this
list? ),

Excrement happens Greg, in more ways than one, especially here where
biogas is very much on-topic (and a very welcome topic too).

 which is the source of the heavy NH3 in the air, is run through a
Methane Digester,  the amount of Ammonia ( NH3 ), filling the air would be
cut down to almost nothing, and the Nitrogen would be recoverable in a
usable form for farming,

... but not until the sludge has been composted. That it's rich in
N, P and K doesn't necessarily make it a good fertilizer, and in fact
it's fraught with VOCs and other stuff that kills the soil life
(including the micorrhizal fungi) and destroys the soilfood web.

Biogas and composting can go very well together, not necessarily
either one or the other.

and BioGas would be available for use as well.

Funny thing, You could use the Methane Digester to reduce the NH3 in the
air, put the recoverable N back into the ground, make biogas, which in turn
( with the proper equipment ) can be made into syngas, and from there
reformed into Methanol which could power your car.

And a bit more than that. Why don't you join in the other current
thread on biogas? It's of much interest to all biofuellers - re which
more later.

Best

Keith


Greg H.

snip



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Re: [biofuel] Biogas technologies

[pan ruti]

Hello Eong and Keith addision

Thank you  for your keen interest  about the  more discussion of biogas 
here in  yahoo biofuel group , which our small  research group in Brasil also 
believes too have good green future , in addition to bio oil and bidiesel of 
real  energy economy where as H2 will be the virtual one using this real energy 
carrier .The simple bioreactor can also recover energy from  waste of urban , 
agricultural and animal  of alltypes , including the glycerine and ester , if 
properly designed.

Our group  is designing  biodigester horizontal rectangular tanque WITH 
locally made bricks or sand ciment blocks, covered  rectangular plasic sheet 
suported by plastic nets all housed under rectangular wooden box, all to making 
use of local materials and  manpower.

   The gas generated can be compreesed  and put in gas cylinder of cooking 
gas, all are available in all the  place of Brasil.

 The solid resdiues are fermented  aerobically after milling using 
seleted strain of fungus to accelerate composting using little urea, then  the 
composted materials are solubilzed  using bacterias  grown  with the solution 
of the out put of the biodigesters.

 THIS TWO STAGE BIOLOGICAL PRETREATMENTS CAN BE EASILY IMPLEMENTED TO MAKE 
FUEL FROM BIODEGRABLE SOLID RESIDUES , AGRICULTURAL, URBAN AND  ANIMAL WASTES.

The compressed biogas can easily suppliment with biodisel and  bioiol made 
from bimass in rural areas.This can be aapropriate ecological solution under  
developing  stage by our small research groups.

   Technical colaborations are welcome to make our research sucess. Our project 
has finished the design stage, will be soon implemented and operated both de 
biogas  and together with biooil project of lower cost for small scale  power 
generations.In addition we wish to make biodeisel from bio oil from wood.

  Thanks again our group leader,to make our group one of the best working group 
of biofuel, who really move the discussion in correct directions for real world 
problems.I also feel that this group is doing a lot to make  deveoped countries 
 technical experiences to developing one to make  great green future for 
biofuel and all our group members to

sd

Pannirselvam

 
 Two reactor in batch operations  need tecnical skill, when one 
is not operating , other need to be cleaned  and charged with raw materials,

T

Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello Eong and Pannirselvam

Could you provide a description of the technologies you're using?

I'd welcome more discussion of biogas issues and technologies - we do 
have it, but not enough, IMO. Very much on-topic here. Recent 
discussion on the composition of natural gas (LPG) and other 
sources of methane came close.

We've discussed these before, among others - bag digesters:

http://www.ias.unu.edu/proceedings/icibs/ibs/info/ecuador/install-polydig.htm
How to install a polyethylene biogas plant

http://www.fao.org/WAICENT/FAOINFO/AGRICULT/AGA/AGAP/FRG/Recycle/biodi 
g/manual.htm
Biodigester installation manual

Are your units similar?

Re locally available raw materials, I wonder what could be adpated to 
serve the purpose of a polyethylene bag... When you see something 
like this it seems anything's possible!
http://www.manalagi.com/jamesplace/indonesia/sopi/index.html
Culture Corner Archive: Makin' Moonshine

 Our university research group situated in the the city o Natal, 
Northeast of Brazil ina na under developed area of Brazil, 
different  than the economically  developed area of the  south of 
Brazil ,  under my coordination have  technical resource  for the 
new  low cost design  for  biogas from  solid residues regarding 
inovative design..We   wish to  lend helping hand to  have joint 
effort  to solve  the problems there and our research students wish 
to lend the helping hand also to you.
   I thank the  leader of this  biofuel group , who does  a lot  to 
bring the people all over the world  and  do very seroius  work  and 
wish to thank  all of them related to biofuel   for the very serious 
work. Let us join hand help each other by sharing our technical 
experiences.

Indeed yes, that's exactly what it's for!

Best wishes

Keith Addison

sd

Pannirselvam





ONG San Guan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi,
 
 I am sourcing for biogas technologies using human or animal excreta as the
 raw material in remote highlands of the Mekong Water Shed Region ( Myanmar,
 Laos, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Provinces of Western China like Tibet,
 Sichuan, Yunnan and Guangxi ). Present ones in use may succumb to SARS
 epidemic threat.  One other factor is the use of local raw material for
 building the equipment; indigenous wood and bamboo are plenty in that area.
 
 Any input would be appreciatedEONG


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Re: [biofuel] Biogas technologies

[pan ruti]

 Our university research group situated in the the city o Natal, Northeast 
of Brazil ina na under developed area of Brazil,  different  than the 
economically  developed area of the  south of Brazil ,  under my coordination 
have  technical resource  for the new  low cost design  for  biogas from  solid 
residues regarding inovative design..We   wish to  lend helping hand to  have 
joint  effort  to solve  the problems there and our research students wish to 
lend the helping hand also to you.
   I thank the  leader of this  biofuel group , who does  a lot  to bring the 
people all over the world  and  do very seroius  work  and wish to thank  all 
of them related to biofuel   for the very serious  work. Let us join hand help 
each other by sharing our technical experiences.
 
sd
 
Pannirselvam
 
 
 
 

ONG San Guan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi,

I am sourcing for biogas technologies using human or animal excreta as the
raw material in remote highlands of the Mekong Water Shed Region ( Myanmar,
Laos, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Provinces of Western China like Tibet,
Sichuan, Yunnan and Guangxi ). Present ones in use may succumb to SARS
epidemic threat.  One other factor is the use of local raw material for
building the equipment; indigenous wood and bamboo are plenty in that area.

Any input would be appreciatedEONG


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Re: [biofuels-biz] energy conference in Brazil?

[pan ruti]

   There are some  P  and D in petroleium and gas in RIO

Marcelino Miranda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Can you please tell us if there is 
an energy/fuels/ethanol conference in
Brazil,
during the first weeks of June? Details?
Many thanks.

Marcelino Miranda
QUIMICA NOVA S.A.




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