Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments

[murdoch]

Have been catching bits and pieces of solar news here in Arizona.  The
2nd largest PV installation in the world is in Springerville (3 or 4
MW I think the largest is in Italy) and I did see an
interesting news release about a planned thermal solar project
somewhere around here.  Not the size given in the Australian project,
but I'll believe that one when I see it built.

Anyway, checking around (Bloomberg.com, etc.) it looks like that
Australia solar thermal project is being run by EVM.AX (yahoo system
stock symbols) a publicly traded australian company.  Market cap is
too small for this project, but interesting anyway.  Also ran across
eil.ax, 

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=EIL:AU

which definitely fits my goals for a biofuel-related publicly traded
investment, although it also is too small for this particularly
project.  Their profile:

>Environmental Infrastructure Limited develops renewable energy in Australia. 
>The Company converts food waste into green energy and organic fertilizer which 
>reduces greenhouse gas emissions and landfill demand. Organic waste from food 
>manufacturing, food retailing and hospitality sectors is recycled to form 
>biogas which is used for heat and electricity.



On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 16:58:49 +, you wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I guess a good excuse to take a trip to Australia!! One would think that if it 
>were working well in Manzanares, they would have left it functioning.
>
>Regards,
>
>Derek
>
>
>
>> 
>> Derek,
>> 
>> I do not think that Spain can show anything today,
>> 
>> "Scientists have already built a successful prototype in Manzanares, Spain. 
>> The plant operated from 1982 and 1989 and had a consistent output of 50 
>> kilowatts of green energy. "
>> 
>> Do not operate after 1989 as far as I can understand.
>> 
>> Hakan
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> At 18:35 26/04/2004, you wrote:
>> >Hi Art,
>> >
>> >Thank you for the link. Very interesting. I get to Spain from time-to-time 
>> >and I'd like to try and see the prototype.
>> >
>> >Derek
>> >
>> >
>> >Derek,
>> >
>> >Try this one for size:
>> >
>> >http://www.cbc.ca/storie
>> s/2002/08/21/aus_power_020821
>> >
>> >Art
>
>
>
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Biofuels list archives:
>http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
>
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Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments

[desertstallion]

Hi,

I guess a good excuse to take a trip to Australia!! One would think that if it 
were working well in Manzanares, they would have left it functioning.

Regards,

Derek



> 
> Derek,
> 
> I do not think that Spain can show anything today,
> 
> "Scientists have already built a successful prototype in Manzanares, Spain. 
> The plant operated from 1982 and 1989 and had a consistent output of 50 
> kilowatts of green energy. "
> 
> Do not operate after 1989 as far as I can understand.
> 
> Hakan
> 
> 
> 
> At 18:35 26/04/2004, you wrote:
> >Hi Art,
> >
> >Thank you for the link. Very interesting. I get to Spain from time-to-time 
> >and I'd like to try and see the prototype.
> >
> >Derek
> >
> >
> >Derek,
> >
> >Try this one for size:
> >
> >http://www.cbc.ca/storie
> s/2002/08/21/aus_power_020821
> >
> >Art



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Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments

[Hakan Falk]

Derek,

I do not think that Spain can show anything today,

"Scientists have already built a successful prototype in Manzanares, Spain. 
The plant operated from 1982 and 1989 and had a consistent output of 50 
kilowatts of green energy. "

Do not operate after 1989 as far as I can understand.

Hakan



At 18:35 26/04/2004, you wrote:
>Hi Art,
>
>Thank you for the link. Very interesting. I get to Spain from time-to-time 
>and I'd like to try and see the prototype.
>
>Derek
>
>
>Derek,
>
>Try this one for size:
>
>http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/08/21/aus_power_020821
>
>Art
>
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Biofuels list archives:
>http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
>
>Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
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>* 
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>* 
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Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments

[desertstallion]

Hi Art,

Thank you for the link. Very interesting. I get to Spain from time-to-time and 
I'd like to try and see the prototype.

Derek


Derek,

Try this one for size:

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/08/21/aus_power_020821

Art


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Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments

[Art Krenzel]

Derek,

Try this one for size:

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/08/21/aus_power_020821

Art

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable
Technology or Conservation Investments


> Hi Art,
>
> I'm not sure of all of the intricacies of how the Saharan dust gets to the
Amazon, but here is one of several sources supporting this found via a quick
Google search.
>
> http://www.rsmas.miami.edu/divs/mpo/Academics/Projects/Liu.doc
>
> As you said, this is not at the crux of the discussion. It was just to
give you an example of the fact that desert lands often have plenty of soil
and are capable of growing food under the right conditions and it doesn't
require 'hydroponics.'
>
> And, all of this is off the track of the original poster. His concept was
of obtaining open desert land to be used for energy production, not to be
used for food production. As I recall, you came back stating something to
the effect that one couldn't live on a desert island because one couldn't
produce food. As I understood his original post, and what I am supporting as
possible, is the use of large tracks of open land for future production of
energy, basically capturing the incident solar energy. And, I still can not
see why one couldn't engineer a concept to do this.
>
> I can still remember being in Maracaibo years ago getting a car repaired.
The garage had a large open lot to work on vehicles. About 40 feet above the
lot they had a corrugated metal roof. It was early afternoon, and that roof
looked to me to be red hot from the sunlight incident upon it. However, it
was high enough that none of the heat radiating from that roof bothered us
at ground level. As the 'building' didn't have any walls, there was more
than enough light from the sides to work, and it was clear that the working
conditions in the open lot were enhanced by having that simple roof to block
the sun.
>
> So...although it wouldn't be economically feasible at this time...in
future...I can visualize in places like Saudi large land areas where they
have built solar collectors suspended well above the ground level. If they
utilized roughly half of the incident light for electricity production,
there would be plenty of remaining light below the structure to farm. The
solar energy production could be supplemented by wind generators as they
wouldn't block significant incident light from the solar collectors. The
amount of light reaching ground level would be about what is needed to farm,
and it wouldn't be nearly as hot at ground level either, and water needs
would be consequently diminished. As I mentioned before, I currently see
small scale structures in Saudi where they grow vegetables using translucent
plastic roofs to allow only about half the incident light to reach the
ground. It seems wasteful that the light blocked by the roof is not
utilized...whereas if the roof were replaced by a solar collector it would
be.
>
> Anyway...I doubt that I would see something large scale like that in my
lifetime...but I think it would work as well or better than a lot of other
large scale solar collector sci-fi type concepts.
>
> Regards,
>
> Derek
>
>
> > Bob,
> >
> > The PREVAILING winds do move from west to east in both hemispheres due
to the
> > rotation of the earth.  Hurricanes, which contain a large amount of
energy, can
> > move in a variety of directions - especially near the equator.
> >
> > Note the following:
> >
> > http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/weather/A0849225.html
> > trade winds, movement of air toward the equator, from the NE in the
Northern
> > Hemisphere and from the SE in the Southern Hemisphere. The trade winds
originate
> > on the equatorial sides of the horse latitudes, which are two belts of
high air
> > pressure, one lying between 25¡ and 30¡ north of the equator and the
other lying
> > between 25¡ and 30¡ south of it. The high air pressure in these belts
forces air
> > to move toward a belt of low air pressure along the equator called the
doldrums.
> > The air converging at the doldrums rises high over the earth,
recirculates
> > poleward, and sinks back toward the earth's surface in the region of the
horse
> > latitudes, thus completing a cycle. The air does not move directly north
or
> > south because it is deflected by the rotation of the earth. See wind;
Coriolis
> > effect.
> >
> > It is not a serious point however.  The issue for me is trying to
generate food
> > in desert like conditions.  You can do it - you can also push water up
hill but
> > it all takes an inordinate amount of cheap energy to make it work.  The
goal is
> > to make the 

Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments

[desertstallion]

Hi Art,

I'm not sure of all of the intricacies of how the Saharan dust gets to the 
Amazon, but here is one of several sources supporting this found via a quick 
Google search.

http://www.rsmas.miami.edu/divs/mpo/Academics/Projects/Liu.doc

As you said, this is not at the crux of the discussion. It was just to give you 
an example of the fact that desert lands often have plenty of soil and are 
capable of growing food under the right conditions and it doesn't require 
'hydroponics.'

And, all of this is off the track of the original poster. His concept was of 
obtaining open desert land to be used for energy production, not to be used for 
food production. As I recall, you came back stating something to the effect 
that one couldn't live on a desert island because one couldn't produce food. As 
I understood his original post, and what I am supporting as possible, is the 
use of large tracks of open land for future production of energy, basically 
capturing the incident solar energy. And, I still can not see why one couldn't 
engineer a concept to do this.

I can still remember being in Maracaibo years ago getting a car repaired. The 
garage had a large open lot to work on vehicles. About 40 feet above the lot 
they had a corrugated metal roof. It was early afternoon, and that roof looked 
to me to be red hot from the sunlight incident upon it. However, it was high 
enough that none of the heat radiating from that roof bothered us at ground 
level. As the 'building' didn't have any walls, there was more than enough 
light from the sides to work, and it was clear that the working conditions in 
the open lot were enhanced by having that simple roof to block the sun.

So...although it wouldn't be economically feasible at this time...in future...I 
can visualize in places like Saudi large land areas where they have built solar 
collectors suspended well above the ground level. If they utilized roughly half 
of the incident light for electricity production, there would be plenty of 
remaining light below the structure to farm. The solar energy production could 
be supplemented by wind generators as they wouldn't block significant incident 
light from the solar collectors. The amount of light reaching ground level 
would be about what is needed to farm, and it wouldn't be nearly as hot at 
ground level either, and water needs would be consequently diminished. As I 
mentioned before, I currently see small scale structures in Saudi where they 
grow vegetables using translucent plastic roofs to allow only about half the 
incident light to reach the ground. It seems wasteful that the light blocked by 
the roof is not utilized...whereas if the roof were replaced by a solar 
collector it would be.

Anyway...I doubt that I would see something large scale like that in my 
lifetime...but I think it would work as well or better than a lot of other 
large scale solar collector sci-fi type concepts.

Regards,

Derek


> Bob,
> 
> The PREVAILING winds do move from west to east in both hemispheres due to the 
> rotation of the earth.  Hurricanes, which contain a large amount of energy, 
> can 
> move in a variety of directions - especially near the equator.
> 
> Note the following:
> 
> http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/weather/A0849225.html
> trade winds, movement of air toward the equator, from the NE in the Northern 
> Hemisphere and from the SE in the Southern Hemisphere. The trade winds 
> originate 
> on the equatorial sides of the horse latitudes, which are two belts of high 
> air 
> pressure, one lying between 25¡ and 30¡ north of the equator and the other 
> lying 
> between 25¡ and 30¡ south of it. The high air pressure in these belts forces 
> air 
> to move toward a belt of low air pressure along the equator called the 
> doldrums. 
> The air converging at the doldrums rises high over the earth, recirculates 
> poleward, and sinks back toward the earth's surface in the region of the 
> horse 
> latitudes, thus completing a cycle. The air does not move directly north or 
> south because it is deflected by the rotation of the earth. See wind; 
> Coriolis 
> effect.
> 
> It is not a serious point however.  The issue for me is trying to generate 
> food 
> in desert like conditions.  You can do it - you can also push water up hill 
> but 
> it all takes an inordinate amount of cheap energy to make it work.  The goal 
> is 
> to make the system sustainable which means, most likely, that you need to 
> work 
> with nature rather than against it.
> 
> Art
>   - Original Message - 
>   From: bob allen 
>   To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 8:51 AM
>   Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable 
> Technology or Conservation Investments
> 
> 
>   ac

Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments

[Art Krenzel]

Bob,

The PREVAILING winds do move from west to east in both hemispheres due to the 
rotation of the earth.  Hurricanes, which contain a large amount of energy, can 
move in a variety of directions - especially near the equator.

Note the following:

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/weather/A0849225.html
trade winds, movement of air toward the equator, from the NE in the Northern 
Hemisphere and from the SE in the Southern Hemisphere. The trade winds 
originate on the equatorial sides of the horse latitudes, which are two belts 
of high air pressure, one lying between 25¡ and 30¡ north of the equator and 
the other lying between 25¡ and 30¡ south of it. The high air pressure in these 
belts forces air to move toward a belt of low air pressure along the equator 
called the doldrums. The air converging at the doldrums rises high over the 
earth, recirculates poleward, and sinks back toward the earth's surface in the 
region of the horse latitudes, thus completing a cycle. The air does not move 
directly north or south because it is deflected by the rotation of the earth. 
See wind; Coriolis effect.

It is not a serious point however.  The issue for me is trying to generate food 
in desert like conditions.  You can do it - you can also push water up hill but 
it all takes an inordinate amount of cheap energy to make it work.  The goal is 
to make the system sustainable which means, most likely, that you need to work 
with nature rather than against it.

Art
  - Original Message - 
  From: bob allen 
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 8:51 AM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable 
Technology or Conservation Investments


  actually Art, the  winds do blow from east to west across the Atlantic 
  at least at the latitude which carries dust from the Sahara to the 
  Caribbean and northeast South America.  Think Atlantic hurricanes which 
  are spawned off the coast of Africa and move in a westerly direction to 
  east coast of the US and caribbean islands.

  An interesting discussion of dust movement from east to west is in "The 
  Secret Life of dust"  by Hanna Holmes.




  Art Krenzel wrote:

  > Derek,
  > 
  > Unless the prevailing wind has reversed its course on your world, the wind 
blows FROM the Amazon TO the Sahara desert (unless it goes around the world).  
There would be alot of other deserving people the Sahara winds would cross 
before it got the Amazon that way around.
  > 
  > I'm not saying the desert concept is worthless - I am saying that the 
concept is not practical or sustainable without an inordinate dependence upon 
alot of cheap energy.
  > 
  > Art 
  >   - Original Message - 
  >   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  >   To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  >   Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 2:34 AM
  >   Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable 
Technology or Conservation Investments
  > 
  > 
  >   Hi,
  > 
  >   I vaguely recall reading that a lot of the nutrients for the Amazon are 
carried by wind from the Sahara. Although a lot of the desert is 'just' sand, 
most of it has plenty of soil. If given a bit of water it blooms. It is amazing 
what all pops up once there is a bit of rain.
  > 
  >   I think we basically agree on the best way to grow food, etc. But, I 
don't think Brian's suggestion of investing in desert land and adapting it to 
future energy production is without merit either. Certainly I don't think it 
should be discounted out of hand as a worthless idea.
  > 
  >   Regards,
  > 
  >   Derek
  > 
  > 
  >   > Derek,
  >   > 
  >   > All the energy fuss doesn't cut ice.  If it isn't sustainable, what is 
it?  An 
  >   > experiment?
  >   > 
  >   > How much of your wheat is grown using water produced by reverse 
osmosis?  Would 
  >   > this be possible if the Saudi Arabian economy were not sustained by the 
sales of 
  >   > oil to the rest of the world?  Try the energy experience in the Sudan 
economy 
  >   > perhaps or Yeman and see how far it goes.
  >   > 
  >   > The biggest places that are exporting food today have natural water and 
soil.  
  >   > These has been the traditional basis for food production since the 
beginning of 
  >   > time.  Not energy alone.  Energy helps but if you have nothing to eat, 
all the 
  >   > energy in the world doesn't do you a bit of good.
  >   > 
  >   > You don't farm in a desert because there is insufficient water or 
organic matter 
  >   > in the sand to make the system work.  Hydroponics does not compare with 
soil 
  >   > produced food in quality or cost.  As an experiment, it might work fine 
but to 
  >   > produce food for 4 billion people it quickly fails.
  >   > 
  >

Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments

[bob allen]

the trade winds blow from east to west at about 15 degrees north 
latitude.  they brought Columbus to the west Indies.  the prevailing 
winds, north of about 35 degrees, blow west to east and took him home, 
and moved goods from the "colonies" back to Europe.

storms blow from west to east off the gobi desert in china and deposit 
dust on the US pacific coast of northern California and Oregon





murdoch wrote:

>>Derek,
>>
>>Unless the prevailing wind has reversed its course on your world, the wind 
>>blows FROM the Amazon TO the Sahara desert (unless it goes around the world). 
>> There would be alot of other deserving people the Sahara winds would cross 
>>before it got the Amazon that way around.
> 
> 
> In the Northern Hemisphere, I can see how the winds would blow from,
> say, the States to Europe (thus aiding air travel in that direction,
> for example).  However, I question whether the direction isn't
> reversed for the Southern Hemisphere (the Amazon) and-or whether it
> mightn't be true that some of the Sahara blows toward the Amazon, from
> West to East.  Or, even if it blows on the other direction, whether it
> mightn't be true that the debris from the Sahara end up in the Amazon,
> having traveled much of the globe's circumfrence.
> 
> Dunno.
> 
> 
>>I'm not saying the desert concept is worthless - I am saying that the concept 
>>is not practical or sustainable without an inordinate dependence upon alot of 
>>cheap energy.
>>
>>Art 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
> 
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 

-- 
--
Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob
--
-
The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises
in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral
justification for selfishness  JKG
 

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Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments

[bob allen]

actually Art, the  winds do blow from east to west across the Atlantic 
at least at the latitude which carries dust from the Sahara to the 
Caribbean and northeast South America.  Think Atlantic hurricanes which 
are spawned off the coast of Africa and move in a westerly direction to 
east coast of the US and caribbean islands.

An interesting discussion of dust movement from east to west is in "The 
Secret Life of dust"  by Hanna Holmes.




Art Krenzel wrote:

> Derek,
> 
> Unless the prevailing wind has reversed its course on your world, the wind 
> blows FROM the Amazon TO the Sahara desert (unless it goes around the world). 
>  There would be alot of other deserving people the Sahara winds would cross 
> before it got the Amazon that way around.
> 
> I'm not saying the desert concept is worthless - I am saying that the concept 
> is not practical or sustainable without an inordinate dependence upon alot of 
> cheap energy.
> 
> Art 
>   - Original Message - 
>   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>   To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 2:34 AM
>   Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable 
> Technology or Conservation Investments
> 
> 
>   Hi,
> 
>   I vaguely recall reading that a lot of the nutrients for the Amazon are 
> carried by wind from the Sahara. Although a lot of the desert is 'just' sand, 
> most of it has plenty of soil. If given a bit of water it blooms. It is 
> amazing what all pops up once there is a bit of rain.
> 
>   I think we basically agree on the best way to grow food, etc. But, I don't 
> think Brian's suggestion of investing in desert land and adapting it to 
> future energy production is without merit either. Certainly I don't think it 
> should be discounted out of hand as a worthless idea.
> 
>   Regards,
> 
>   Derek
> 
> 
>   > Derek,
>   > 
>   > All the energy fuss doesn't cut ice.  If it isn't sustainable, what is 
> it?  An 
>   > experiment?
>   > 
>   > How much of your wheat is grown using water produced by reverse osmosis?  
> Would 
>   > this be possible if the Saudi Arabian economy were not sustained by the 
> sales of 
>   > oil to the rest of the world?  Try the energy experience in the Sudan 
> economy 
>   > perhaps or Yeman and see how far it goes.
>   > 
>   > The biggest places that are exporting food today have natural water and 
> soil.  
>   > These has been the traditional basis for food production since the 
> beginning of 
>   > time.  Not energy alone.  Energy helps but if you have nothing to eat, 
> all the 
>   > energy in the world doesn't do you a bit of good.
>   > 
>   > You don't farm in a desert because there is insufficient water or organic 
> matter 
>   > in the sand to make the system work.  Hydroponics does not compare with 
> soil 
>   > produced food in quality or cost.  As an experiment, it might work fine 
> but to 
>   > produce food for 4 billion people it quickly fails.
>   > 
>   > The problem with viewing the problem from only an energy standpoint is 
> the 
>   > saying, "to a man with a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail".  
>   > Sustainability should be the watchword.
>   > 
>   > Art
>   >   - Original Message - 
>   >   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>   >   To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
>   >   Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 8:23 AM
>   >   Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable 
>   > Technology or Conservation Investments
>   > 
>   > 
>   >   Hi,
>   > 
>   >   Unlimited energy leads to all other needs. The most essential raw 
> product is 
>   > energy. Once one has energy they can recycle water, make water, grow food 
> in all 
>   > sorts of ways, etc. I've lived in the desert for ten years. It was an eye 
> opener 
>   > to realize how dependent life in the desert is on energy, and how 
> everything 
>   > else pales. I live in Saudi...number one in the world at making potable 
> water 
>   > from the sea. They grow enough wheat to meet their own needs, and export 
> the 
>   > excess. Life is dependent on energy like nowhere else.
>   > 
>   >   Please don't misunderstand me. I am not advocating this. I don't 
> consider much 
>   > this to be sustainable. But, I don't think it is wise to minimize the 
> importance 
>   > of energy as the fundamental building block under everything else.
>   > 
>   >   In the desert, it would be easily possible to harvest 50% of the 
> incident 

Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments

[murdoch]

>Derek,
>
>Unless the prevailing wind has reversed its course on your world, the wind 
>blows FROM the Amazon TO the Sahara desert (unless it goes around the world).  
>There would be alot of other deserving people the Sahara winds would cross 
>before it got the Amazon that way around.

In the Northern Hemisphere, I can see how the winds would blow from,
say, the States to Europe (thus aiding air travel in that direction,
for example).  However, I question whether the direction isn't
reversed for the Southern Hemisphere (the Amazon) and-or whether it
mightn't be true that some of the Sahara blows toward the Amazon, from
West to East.  Or, even if it blows on the other direction, whether it
mightn't be true that the debris from the Sahara end up in the Amazon,
having traveled much of the globe's circumfrence.

Dunno.

>
>I'm not saying the desert concept is worthless - I am saying that the concept 
>is not practical or sustainable without an inordinate dependence upon alot of 
>cheap energy.
>
>Art 



Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments

[Art Krenzel]

Derek,

Unless the prevailing wind has reversed its course on your world, the wind 
blows FROM the Amazon TO the Sahara desert (unless it goes around the world).  
There would be alot of other deserving people the Sahara winds would cross 
before it got the Amazon that way around.

I'm not saying the desert concept is worthless - I am saying that the concept 
is not practical or sustainable without an inordinate dependence upon alot of 
cheap energy.

Art 
  - Original Message - 
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 2:34 AM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable 
Technology or Conservation Investments


  Hi,

  I vaguely recall reading that a lot of the nutrients for the Amazon are 
carried by wind from the Sahara. Although a lot of the desert is 'just' sand, 
most of it has plenty of soil. If given a bit of water it blooms. It is amazing 
what all pops up once there is a bit of rain.

  I think we basically agree on the best way to grow food, etc. But, I don't 
think Brian's suggestion of investing in desert land and adapting it to future 
energy production is without merit either. Certainly I don't think it should be 
discounted out of hand as a worthless idea.

  Regards,

  Derek


  > Derek,
  > 
  > All the energy fuss doesn't cut ice.  If it isn't sustainable, what is it?  
An 
  > experiment?
  > 
  > How much of your wheat is grown using water produced by reverse osmosis?  
Would 
  > this be possible if the Saudi Arabian economy were not sustained by the 
sales of 
  > oil to the rest of the world?  Try the energy experience in the Sudan 
economy 
  > perhaps or Yeman and see how far it goes.
  > 
  > The biggest places that are exporting food today have natural water and 
soil.  
  > These has been the traditional basis for food production since the 
beginning of 
  > time.  Not energy alone.  Energy helps but if you have nothing to eat, all 
the 
  > energy in the world doesn't do you a bit of good.
  > 
  > You don't farm in a desert because there is insufficient water or organic 
matter 
  > in the sand to make the system work.  Hydroponics does not compare with 
soil 
  > produced food in quality or cost.  As an experiment, it might work fine but 
to 
  > produce food for 4 billion people it quickly fails.
  > 
  > The problem with viewing the problem from only an energy standpoint is the 
  > saying, "to a man with a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail".  
  > Sustainability should be the watchword.
  > 
  > Art
  >   - Original Message - 
  >   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  >   To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  >   Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 8:23 AM
  >   Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable 
  > Technology or Conservation Investments
  > 
  > 
  >   Hi,
  > 
  >   Unlimited energy leads to all other needs. The most essential raw product 
is 
  > energy. Once one has energy they can recycle water, make water, grow food 
in all 
  > sorts of ways, etc. I've lived in the desert for ten years. It was an eye 
opener 
  > to realize how dependent life in the desert is on energy, and how 
everything 
  > else pales. I live in Saudi...number one in the world at making potable 
water 
  > from the sea. They grow enough wheat to meet their own needs, and export 
the 
  > excess. Life is dependent on energy like nowhere else.
  > 
  >   Please don't misunderstand me. I am not advocating this. I don't consider 
much 
  > this to be sustainable. But, I don't think it is wise to minimize the 
importance 
  > of energy as the fundamental building block under everything else.
  > 
  >   In the desert, it would be easily possible to harvest 50% of the incident 
  > light for electricity production and to farm with the remaining light. 
Brian is 
  > right on. The future energy production for the world could well come from 
  > worthless deserts, with a top layer of Photovoltaics and vast farms under 
the 
  > light collectors. The energy could possibly be exported by either 
microwaves or 
  > hydrogen pipelines.
  > 
  >   Regards,
  > 
  >   Derek
  > 
  > 
  >   > Brian,
  >   > 
  >   > Before you invest in "worthless" desert islands, you better make sure 
you 
  > can 
  >   > raise food on that island.  Energy alone, whether hydrogen or 
electricity, 
  > makes 
  >   > a poor meal even for an energy guru.
  >   > 
  >   > Art Krenzel, P.E.
  >   > PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES
  >   > 10505 NE 285TH Street
  >   > Battle Ground, WA 98604
  >   > 360-666-1883 voice
  >   > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  >


  Biofuel at Journey to Forever:

Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments

[desertstallion]

Hi,

I vaguely recall reading that a lot of the nutrients for the Amazon are carried 
by wind from the Sahara. Although a lot of the desert is 'just' sand, most of 
it has plenty of soil. If given a bit of water it blooms. It is amazing what 
all pops up once there is a bit of rain.

I think we basically agree on the best way to grow food, etc. But, I don't 
think Brian's suggestion of investing in desert land and adapting it to future 
energy production is without merit either. Certainly I don't think it should be 
discounted out of hand as a worthless idea.

Regards,

Derek


> Derek,
> 
> All the energy fuss doesn't cut ice.  If it isn't sustainable, what is it?  
> An 
> experiment?
> 
> How much of your wheat is grown using water produced by reverse osmosis?  
> Would 
> this be possible if the Saudi Arabian economy were not sustained by the sales 
> of 
> oil to the rest of the world?  Try the energy experience in the Sudan economy 
> perhaps or Yeman and see how far it goes.
> 
> The biggest places that are exporting food today have natural water and soil. 
>  
> These has been the traditional basis for food production since the beginning 
> of 
> time.  Not energy alone.  Energy helps but if you have nothing to eat, all 
> the 
> energy in the world doesn't do you a bit of good.
> 
> You don't farm in a desert because there is insufficient water or organic 
> matter 
> in the sand to make the system work.  Hydroponics does not compare with soil 
> produced food in quality or cost.  As an experiment, it might work fine but 
> to 
> produce food for 4 billion people it quickly fails.
> 
> The problem with viewing the problem from only an energy standpoint is the 
> saying, "to a man with a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail".  
> Sustainability should be the watchword.
> 
> Art
>   ----- Original Message - 
>   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>   To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 8:23 AM
>   Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable 
> Technology or Conservation Investments
> 
> 
>   Hi,
> 
>   Unlimited energy leads to all other needs. The most essential raw product 
> is 
> energy. Once one has energy they can recycle water, make water, grow food in 
> all 
> sorts of ways, etc. I've lived in the desert for ten years. It was an eye 
> opener 
> to realize how dependent life in the desert is on energy, and how everything 
> else pales. I live in Saudi...number one in the world at making potable water 
> from the sea. They grow enough wheat to meet their own needs, and export the 
> excess. Life is dependent on energy like nowhere else.
> 
>   Please don't misunderstand me. I am not advocating this. I don't consider 
> much 
> this to be sustainable. But, I don't think it is wise to minimize the 
> importance 
> of energy as the fundamental building block under everything else.
> 
>   In the desert, it would be easily possible to harvest 50% of the incident 
> light for electricity production and to farm with the remaining light. Brian 
> is 
> right on. The future energy production for the world could well come from 
> worthless deserts, with a top layer of Photovoltaics and vast farms under the 
> light collectors. The energy could possibly be exported by either microwaves 
> or 
> hydrogen pipelines.
> 
>   Regards,
> 
>   Derek
> 
> 
>   > Brian,
>   > 
>   > Before you invest in "worthless" desert islands, you better make sure you 
> can 
>   > raise food on that island.  Energy alone, whether hydrogen or 
> electricity, 
> makes 
>   > a poor meal even for an energy guru.
>   > 
>   > Art Krenzel, P.E.
>   > PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES
>   > 10505 NE 285TH Street
>   > Battle Ground, WA 98604
>   > 360-666-1883 voice
>   > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>


Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

[biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments

[Brian]

Actually, I was thinking of California desert, not desert islands.  
I think that they raise some food in California.

Brian

--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "Art Krenzel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> Brian,
> 
> Before you invest in "worthless" desert islands, you better make 
sure you can raise food on that island.  Energy alone, whether 
hydrogen or electricity, makes a poor meal even for an energy guru.
> 
> Art Krenzel, P.E.
> PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES
> 10505 NE 285TH Street
> Battle Ground, WA 98604
> 360-666-1883 voice
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   - Original Message - 
>   From: Brian 
>   To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 7:01 PM
>   Subject: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable 
Technology or Conservation Investments
> 
> 
>   If I had real money to invest, I'd be buying up "worthless" 
desert 
>   land.  Between solar and wind technology, there is enough energy 
>   being wasted in the desert to do quite a bit of hydrogen 
conversion 
>   for fuel cell cars, if this technology ever goes anywhere.  At 
least 
>   that's my bright idea of the past year or so.
> 
>   Brian
> 
>   --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   > Does anyone here have any ideas for investments in stocks 
>   (anywhere in
>   > the world... does *not* have to be North America) that have a 
good
>   > sustainable technology or energy technology or conservation 
>   angle?  
>   > 
>   > I am working on a project to collect and refine some ideas in 
this
>   > area, and there are a couple of roadblocks I've run into.
>   > 
>   > For example, I was trying to think of a way, any way at all, 
to 
>   invest
>   > in the idea of energy conservation in the general realm of
>   > locally-grown locally-consumed low-input high-output foods.  
But 
>   how
>   > to do this?  
>   > 
>   > I started tossing around the idea of Whole Foods (WFMI on 
yahoo 
>   U.S.
>   > stock boards) just because on balance one might end up 
shopping 
>   there
>   > for foods that have been grown according to 'some' 
conservationist
>   > principles, lower Petroleum input, etc.  If one buys eggs 
produced
>   > from range fed chickens, at least that's something.
>   > 
>   > But putting aside that dissatisfying compromise, if anyone has 
any
>   > ideas,  including 'outside the box' ideas of companies 
you've 
>   seen
>   > practicing or selling some offbeat sustainable idea or 
product, .. 
>   I'd
>   > be curious to hear it.
>   > 
>   > We all know about some of the mainstream investments, some of 
the 
>   more
>   > high-profile much-discussed Hydrogen Fuel Cell companies, and 
once 
>   in
>   > awhile we've tossed around biofuel investment ideas (although 
my 
>   list
>   > is short or nonexistent, unless I include non-pure-plays), but 
I 
>   feel
>   > certain that around the world there must be a few stocks here 
and
>   > there that would be worth considering for this project.
>   > 
>   > Will post to the evworld.com and biofuel discussion groups.
>   > 
>   > Am particularly keen to take advantage of the international 
aspect 
>   of
>   > these discussion groups, in case there is someone in Europe or 
Asia
>   > who might have some ideas for me.  
>   > 
>   > For example, it's not much-discussed here in the States, but 
one of
>   > the only pure-plays I've found in Solar Photovoltaics is 
SWVG.F on
>   > yahoo (the 'F' standing for the Frankfurt exchange) apparently 
a 
>   solar
>   > company that can be researched at solarworld.de.  I'm not 
>   recommending
>   > them as an investment, just pointing out that if I go outside 
of 
>   North
>   > America, there are some interesting companies to be researched.
>   > 
>   > I've particularly had a lot of trouble with Japan, in part due 
to
>   > symbol-conventions, and in part due to the more involved
>   > hard-to-follow company partnerships.  And once I determine 
that a
>   > company has a partial involvement in an industry, I like to 
try to
>   > read their reports and nail down what percentage of their 
business 
>   is
>   > involved, and this seems harder for some reason with Japanese
>   > companies.One minor example I guess would be Nippon-Chemi-Con 
>   (Yahoo
>   > gives some numerical symbol, don't have it handy) which does 
make
>   > capacitors and other electronics for auto a

Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments

[Art Krenzel]

Derek,

All the energy fuss doesn't cut ice.  If it isn't sustainable, what is it?  An 
experiment?

How much of your wheat is grown using water produced by reverse osmosis?  Would 
this be possible if the Saudi Arabian economy were not sustained by the sales 
of oil to the rest of the world?  Try the energy experience in the Sudan 
economy perhaps or Yeman and see how far it goes.

The biggest places that are exporting food today have natural water and soil.  
These has been the traditional basis for food production since the beginning of 
time.  Not energy alone.  Energy helps but if you have nothing to eat, all the 
energy in the world doesn't do you a bit of good.

You don't farm in a desert because there is insufficient water or organic 
matter in the sand to make the system work.  Hydroponics does not compare with 
soil produced food in quality or cost.  As an experiment, it might work fine 
but to produce food for 4 billion people it quickly fails.

The problem with viewing the problem from only an energy standpoint is the 
saying, "to a man with a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail".  
Sustainability should be the watchword.

Art
  - Original Message - 
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 8:23 AM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable 
Technology or Conservation Investments


  Hi,

  Unlimited energy leads to all other needs. The most essential raw product is 
energy. Once one has energy they can recycle water, make water, grow food in 
all sorts of ways, etc. I've lived in the desert for ten years. It was an eye 
opener to realize how dependent life in the desert is on energy, and how 
everything else pales. I live in Saudi...number one in the world at making 
potable water from the sea. They grow enough wheat to meet their own needs, and 
export the excess. Life is dependent on energy like nowhere else.

  Please don't misunderstand me. I am not advocating this. I don't consider 
much this to be sustainable. But, I don't think it is wise to minimize the 
importance of energy as the fundamental building block under everything else.

  In the desert, it would be easily possible to harvest 50% of the incident 
light for electricity production and to farm with the remaining light. Brian is 
right on. The future energy production for the world could well come from 
worthless deserts, with a top layer of Photovoltaics and vast farms under the 
light collectors. The energy could possibly be exported by either microwaves or 
hydrogen pipelines.

  Regards,

  Derek


  > Brian,
  > 
  > Before you invest in "worthless" desert islands, you better make sure you 
can 
  > raise food on that island.  Energy alone, whether hydrogen or electricity, 
makes 
  > a poor meal even for an energy guru.
  > 
  > Art Krenzel, P.E.
  > PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES
  > 10505 NE 285TH Street
  > Battle Ground, WA 98604
  > 360-666-1883 voice
  > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  >   - Original Message - 
  >   From: Brian 
  >   To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  >   Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 7:01 PM
  >   Subject: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable 
Technology or 
  > Conservation Investments
  > 
  > 
  >   If I had real money to invest, I'd be buying up "worthless" desert 
  >   land.  Between solar and wind technology, there is enough energy 
  >   being wasted in the desert to do quite a bit of hydrogen conversion 
  >   for fuel cell cars, if this technology ever goes anywhere.  At least 
  >   that's my bright idea of the past year or so.
  > 
  >   Brian
  > 
  >   --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  >   > Does anyone here have any ideas for investments in stocks 
  >   (anywhere in
  >   > the world... does *not* have to be North America) that have a good
  >   > sustainable technology or energy technology or conservation 
  >   angle?  
  >   > 
  >   > I am working on a project to collect and refine some ideas in this
  >   > area, and there are a couple of roadblocks I've run into.
  >   > 
  >   > For example, I was trying to think of a way, any way at all, to 
  >   invest
  >   > in the idea of energy conservation in the general realm of
  >   > locally-grown locally-consumed low-input high-output foods.  But 
  >   how
  >   > to do this?  
  >   > 
  >   > I started tossing around the idea of Whole Foods (WFMI on yahoo 
  >   U.S.
  >   > stock boards) just because on balance one might end up shopping 
  >   there
  >   > for foods that have been grown according to 'some' conservationist
  >   > principles, lower Petroleum input, etc.  If one buys eggs produce

Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments

[desertstallion]

Hi,

Unlimited energy leads to all other needs. The most essential raw product is 
energy. Once one has energy they can recycle water, make water, grow food in 
all sorts of ways, etc. I've lived in the desert for ten years. It was an eye 
opener to realize how dependent life in the desert is on energy, and how 
everything else pales. I live in Saudi...number one in the world at making 
potable water from the sea. They grow enough wheat to meet their own needs, and 
export the excess. Life is dependent on energy like nowhere else.

Please don't misunderstand me. I am not advocating this. I don't consider much 
this to be sustainable. But, I don't think it is wise to minimize the 
importance of energy as the fundamental building block under everything else.

In the desert, it would be easily possible to harvest 50% of the incident light 
for electricity production and to farm with the remaining light. Brian is right 
on. The future energy production for the world could well come from worthless 
deserts, with a top layer of Photovoltaics and vast farms under the light 
collectors. The energy could possibly be exported by either microwaves or 
hydrogen pipelines.

Regards,

Derek


> Brian,
> 
> Before you invest in "worthless" desert islands, you better make sure you can 
> raise food on that island.  Energy alone, whether hydrogen or electricity, 
> makes 
> a poor meal even for an energy guru.
> 
> Art Krenzel, P.E.
> PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES
> 10505 NE 285TH Street
> Battle Ground, WA 98604
> 360-666-1883 voice
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   - Original Message - 
>   From: Brian 
>   To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 7:01 PM
>   Subject: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology 
> or 
> Conservation Investments
> 
> 
>   If I had real money to invest, I'd be buying up "worthless" desert 
>   land.  Between solar and wind technology, there is enough energy 
>   being wasted in the desert to do quite a bit of hydrogen conversion 
>   for fuel cell cars, if this technology ever goes anywhere.  At least 
>   that's my bright idea of the past year or so.
> 
>   Brian
> 
>   --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   > Does anyone here have any ideas for investments in stocks 
>   (anywhere in
>   > the world... does *not* have to be North America) that have a good
>   > sustainable technology or energy technology or conservation 
>   angle?  
>   > 
>   > I am working on a project to collect and refine some ideas in this
>   > area, and there are a couple of roadblocks I've run into.
>   > 
>   > For example, I was trying to think of a way, any way at all, to 
>   invest
>   > in the idea of energy conservation in the general realm of
>   > locally-grown locally-consumed low-input high-output foods.  But 
>   how
>   > to do this?  
>   > 
>   > I started tossing around the idea of Whole Foods (WFMI on yahoo 
>   U.S.
>   > stock boards) just because on balance one might end up shopping 
>   there
>   > for foods that have been grown according to 'some' conservationist
>   > principles, lower Petroleum input, etc.  If one buys eggs produced
>   > from range fed chickens, at least that's something.
>   > 
>   > But putting aside that dissatisfying compromise, if anyone has any
>   > ideas,  including 'outside the box' ideas of companies you've 
>   seen
>   > practicing or selling some offbeat sustainable idea or product, .. 
>   I'd
>   > be curious to hear it.


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Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments

[Art Krenzel]

Brian,

Before you invest in "worthless" desert islands, you better make sure you can 
raise food on that island.  Energy alone, whether hydrogen or electricity, 
makes a poor meal even for an energy guru.

Art Krenzel, P.E.
PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES
10505 NE 285TH Street
Battle Ground, WA 98604
360-666-1883 voice
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  - Original Message - 
  From: Brian 
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 7:01 PM
  Subject: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology 
or Conservation Investments


  If I had real money to invest, I'd be buying up "worthless" desert 
  land.  Between solar and wind technology, there is enough energy 
  being wasted in the desert to do quite a bit of hydrogen conversion 
  for fuel cell cars, if this technology ever goes anywhere.  At least 
  that's my bright idea of the past year or so.

  Brian

  --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  > Does anyone here have any ideas for investments in stocks 
  (anywhere in
  > the world... does *not* have to be North America) that have a good
  > sustainable technology or energy technology or conservation 
  angle?  
  > 
  > I am working on a project to collect and refine some ideas in this
  > area, and there are a couple of roadblocks I've run into.
  > 
  > For example, I was trying to think of a way, any way at all, to 
  invest
  > in the idea of energy conservation in the general realm of
  > locally-grown locally-consumed low-input high-output foods.  But 
  how
  > to do this?  
  > 
  > I started tossing around the idea of Whole Foods (WFMI on yahoo 
  U.S.
  > stock boards) just because on balance one might end up shopping 
  there
  > for foods that have been grown according to 'some' conservationist
  > principles, lower Petroleum input, etc.  If one buys eggs produced
  > from range fed chickens, at least that's something.
  > 
  > But putting aside that dissatisfying compromise, if anyone has any
  > ideas,  including 'outside the box' ideas of companies you've 
  seen
  > practicing or selling some offbeat sustainable idea or product, .. 
  I'd
  > be curious to hear it.
  > 
  > We all know about some of the mainstream investments, some of the 
  more
  > high-profile much-discussed Hydrogen Fuel Cell companies, and once 
  in
  > awhile we've tossed around biofuel investment ideas (although my 
  list
  > is short or nonexistent, unless I include non-pure-plays), but I 
  feel
  > certain that around the world there must be a few stocks here and
  > there that would be worth considering for this project.
  > 
  > Will post to the evworld.com and biofuel discussion groups.
  > 
  > Am particularly keen to take advantage of the international aspect 
  of
  > these discussion groups, in case there is someone in Europe or Asia
  > who might have some ideas for me.  
  > 
  > For example, it's not much-discussed here in the States, but one of
  > the only pure-plays I've found in Solar Photovoltaics is SWVG.F on
  > yahoo (the 'F' standing for the Frankfurt exchange) apparently a 
  solar
  > company that can be researched at solarworld.de.  I'm not 
  recommending
  > them as an investment, just pointing out that if I go outside of 
  North
  > America, there are some interesting companies to be researched.
  > 
  > I've particularly had a lot of trouble with Japan, in part due to
  > symbol-conventions, and in part due to the more involved
  > hard-to-follow company partnerships.  And once I determine that a
  > company has a partial involvement in an industry, I like to try to
  > read their reports and nail down what percentage of their business 
  is
  > involved, and this seems harder for some reason with Japanese
  > companies.One minor example I guess would be Nippon-Chemi-Con 
  (Yahoo
  > gives some numerical symbol, don't have it handy) which does make
  > capacitors and other electronics for auto and other industries.  
  So:
  > yes, they do make a sort of ultracapacitor, though it's hard to
  > research them the way I might with another company, and nail down 
  what
  > percentage of their business seems committed to progressive
  > technologies in this area.




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  http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

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  http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/

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Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments

[Hakan Falk]

MM,

It is several larger engineering companies who started to work with 
improving energy efficiency in Central Europe. They make a contract with 
the client, to share the net profits from the measures that they implement, 
as the engineering fee. In some cases they also take over maintenance and 
management. They give unchanged or improvement comfort guarantees, so it is 
a win - win for the client, easy money for the engineering company. Had a 
couple who not only looked at our site, but also checked our credentials, 
before they contacted me and offered quite good terms for a cooperation. 
They offered us participation and they all had some connection to Swedish , 
but it would also mean that our site would be restricted on information and 
we declined.

The funny thing is that we helped an engineer in Sweden around 30 years 
ago, to took service maintenance contracts with large apartment and office 
property owners. We did simulations on the buildings and he had equipment 
for alarm and measurement installed in the buildings, when he knew how a 
building were expected to behave, he had software for remote control and 
could do adjustments to save energy. It seems like this business idea are 
flourishing in Central Europe now and that it is very profitable for all 
parties.

Hakan

At 07:52 22/04/2004, you wrote:
>It's not a bad idea.  I don't know of any specific stock symbol by
>which to take advantage of it, but I really don't think it's that bad
>of an idea.
>
>In fact, even though I only own one acre here in Southern Arizona, I
>was just thinking today how, hopefully going forward, such over-hot
>land will be turned toward greater productivity in a variety of ways,
>in the world of tomorrow.  I.e: ideally the "negative" of "too much
>sun" can be turned into a positive by such measures as PV or some
>agricultural uses.
>
>I was also noticing that, under stock symbol PNW, a holding company
>for an Arizona utility, I'm seeing some decent-sized Renewable Energy
>Projects.  More than one of them is starting to make use of this
>'worthless' desert land.
>
>They're not enough to make PNW a play on  renewable energy (just a
>pittance by their revenues) but they make for nice reading.
>
>
>
>On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 02:01:57 -, you wrote:
>
> >If I had real money to invest, I'd be buying up "worthless" desert
> >land.  Between solar and wind technology, there is enough energy
> >being wasted in the desert to do quite a bit of hydrogen conversion
> >for fuel cell cars, if this technology ever goes anywhere.  At least
> >that's my bright idea of the past year or so.
> >
> >Brian
> >
> >--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Does anyone here have any ideas for investments in stocks
> >(anywhere in
> >> the world... does *not* have to be North America) that have a good
> >> sustainable technology or energy technology or conservation
> >angle?
> >>
> >> I am working on a project to collect and refine some ideas in this
> >> area, and there are a couple of roadblocks I've run into.
> >>
> >> For example, I was trying to think of a way, any way at all, to
> >invest
> >> in the idea of energy conservation in the general realm of
> >> locally-grown locally-consumed low-input high-output foods.  But
> >how
> >> to do this?
> >>
> >> I started tossing around the idea of Whole Foods (WFMI on yahoo
> >U.S.
> >> stock boards) just because on balance one might end up shopping
> >there
> >> for foods that have been grown according to 'some' conservationist
> >> principles, lower Petroleum input, etc.  If one buys eggs produced
> >> from range fed chickens, at least that's something.
> >>
> >> But putting aside that dissatisfying compromise, if anyone has any
> >> ideas,  including 'outside the box' ideas of companies you've
> >seen
> >> practicing or selling some offbeat sustainable idea or product, ..
> >I'd
> >> be curious to hear it.
> >>
> >> We all know about some of the mainstream investments, some of the
> >more
> >> high-profile much-discussed Hydrogen Fuel Cell companies, and once
> >in
> >> awhile we've tossed around biofuel investment ideas (although my
> >list
> >> is short or nonexistent, unless I include non-pure-plays), but I
> >feel
> >> certain that around the world there must be a few stocks here and
> >> there that would be worth considering for this project.
> >>
> >> Will post to the evworld.com and biofuel discussion groups.
> >>
> >> Am particularly keen to take advantage of the international aspect
> >of
> >> these discussion groups, in case there is someone in Europe or Asia
> >> who might have some ideas for me.
> >>
> >> For example, it's not much-discussed here in the States, but one of
> >> the only pure-plays I've found in Solar Photovoltaics is SWVG.F on
> >> yahoo (the 'F' standing for the Frankfurt exchange) apparently a
> >solar
> >> company that can be researched at solarworld.de.  I'm not
> >recommending
> >> them as an investment, just pointing out

Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments

[murdoch]

It's not a bad idea.  I don't know of any specific stock symbol by
which to take advantage of it, but I really don't think it's that bad
of an idea.  

In fact, even though I only own one acre here in Southern Arizona, I
was just thinking today how, hopefully going forward, such over-hot
land will be turned toward greater productivity in a variety of ways,
in the world of tomorrow.  I.e: ideally the "negative" of "too much
sun" can be turned into a positive by such measures as PV or some
agricultural uses.

I was also noticing that, under stock symbol PNW, a holding company
for an Arizona utility, I'm seeing some decent-sized Renewable Energy
Projects.  More than one of them is starting to make use of this
'worthless' desert land.

They're not enough to make PNW a play on  renewable energy (just a
pittance by their revenues) but they make for nice reading.



On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 02:01:57 -, you wrote:

>If I had real money to invest, I'd be buying up "worthless" desert 
>land.  Between solar and wind technology, there is enough energy 
>being wasted in the desert to do quite a bit of hydrogen conversion 
>for fuel cell cars, if this technology ever goes anywhere.  At least 
>that's my bright idea of the past year or so.
>
>Brian
>
>--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Does anyone here have any ideas for investments in stocks 
>(anywhere in
>> the world... does *not* have to be North America) that have a good
>> sustainable technology or energy technology or conservation 
>angle?  
>> 
>> I am working on a project to collect and refine some ideas in this
>> area, and there are a couple of roadblocks I've run into.
>> 
>> For example, I was trying to think of a way, any way at all, to 
>invest
>> in the idea of energy conservation in the general realm of
>> locally-grown locally-consumed low-input high-output foods.  But 
>how
>> to do this?  
>> 
>> I started tossing around the idea of Whole Foods (WFMI on yahoo 
>U.S.
>> stock boards) just because on balance one might end up shopping 
>there
>> for foods that have been grown according to 'some' conservationist
>> principles, lower Petroleum input, etc.  If one buys eggs produced
>> from range fed chickens, at least that's something.
>> 
>> But putting aside that dissatisfying compromise, if anyone has any
>> ideas,  including 'outside the box' ideas of companies you've 
>seen
>> practicing or selling some offbeat sustainable idea or product, .. 
>I'd
>> be curious to hear it.
>> 
>> We all know about some of the mainstream investments, some of the 
>more
>> high-profile much-discussed Hydrogen Fuel Cell companies, and once 
>in
>> awhile we've tossed around biofuel investment ideas (although my 
>list
>> is short or nonexistent, unless I include non-pure-plays), but I 
>feel
>> certain that around the world there must be a few stocks here and
>> there that would be worth considering for this project.
>> 
>> Will post to the evworld.com and biofuel discussion groups.
>> 
>> Am particularly keen to take advantage of the international aspect 
>of
>> these discussion groups, in case there is someone in Europe or Asia
>> who might have some ideas for me.  
>> 
>> For example, it's not much-discussed here in the States, but one of
>> the only pure-plays I've found in Solar Photovoltaics is SWVG.F on
>> yahoo (the 'F' standing for the Frankfurt exchange) apparently a 
>solar
>> company that can be researched at solarworld.de.  I'm not 
>recommending
>> them as an investment, just pointing out that if I go outside of 
>North
>> America, there are some interesting companies to be researched.
>> 
>> I've particularly had a lot of trouble with Japan, in part due to
>> symbol-conventions, and in part due to the more involved
>> hard-to-follow company partnerships.  And once I determine that a
>> company has a partial involvement in an industry, I like to try to
>> read their reports and nail down what percentage of their business 
>is
>> involved, and this seems harder for some reason with Japanese
>> companies.One minor example I guess would be Nippon-Chemi-Con 
>(Yahoo
>> gives some numerical symbol, don't have it handy) which does make
>> capacitors and other electronics for auto and other industries.  
>So:
>> yes, they do make a sort of ultracapacitor, though it's hard to
>> research them the way I might with another company, and nail down 
>what
>> percentage of their business seems committed to progressive
>> technologies in this area.
>
>
>
>
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Biofuels list archives:
>http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
>
>Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> 
>



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[biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments

[Brian]

If I had real money to invest, I'd be buying up "worthless" desert 
land.  Between solar and wind technology, there is enough energy 
being wasted in the desert to do quite a bit of hydrogen conversion 
for fuel cell cars, if this technology ever goes anywhere.  At least 
that's my bright idea of the past year or so.

Brian

--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, murdoch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Does anyone here have any ideas for investments in stocks 
(anywhere in
> the world... does *not* have to be North America) that have a good
> sustainable technology or energy technology or conservation 
angle?  
> 
> I am working on a project to collect and refine some ideas in this
> area, and there are a couple of roadblocks I've run into.
> 
> For example, I was trying to think of a way, any way at all, to 
invest
> in the idea of energy conservation in the general realm of
> locally-grown locally-consumed low-input high-output foods.  But 
how
> to do this?  
> 
> I started tossing around the idea of Whole Foods (WFMI on yahoo 
U.S.
> stock boards) just because on balance one might end up shopping 
there
> for foods that have been grown according to 'some' conservationist
> principles, lower Petroleum input, etc.  If one buys eggs produced
> from range fed chickens, at least that's something.
> 
> But putting aside that dissatisfying compromise, if anyone has any
> ideas,  including 'outside the box' ideas of companies you've 
seen
> practicing or selling some offbeat sustainable idea or product, .. 
I'd
> be curious to hear it.
> 
> We all know about some of the mainstream investments, some of the 
more
> high-profile much-discussed Hydrogen Fuel Cell companies, and once 
in
> awhile we've tossed around biofuel investment ideas (although my 
list
> is short or nonexistent, unless I include non-pure-plays), but I 
feel
> certain that around the world there must be a few stocks here and
> there that would be worth considering for this project.
> 
> Will post to the evworld.com and biofuel discussion groups.
> 
> Am particularly keen to take advantage of the international aspect 
of
> these discussion groups, in case there is someone in Europe or Asia
> who might have some ideas for me.  
> 
> For example, it's not much-discussed here in the States, but one of
> the only pure-plays I've found in Solar Photovoltaics is SWVG.F on
> yahoo (the 'F' standing for the Frankfurt exchange) apparently a 
solar
> company that can be researched at solarworld.de.  I'm not 
recommending
> them as an investment, just pointing out that if I go outside of 
North
> America, there are some interesting companies to be researched.
> 
> I've particularly had a lot of trouble with Japan, in part due to
> symbol-conventions, and in part due to the more involved
> hard-to-follow company partnerships.  And once I determine that a
> company has a partial involvement in an industry, I like to try to
> read their reports and nail down what percentage of their business 
is
> involved, and this seems harder for some reason with Japanese
> companies.One minor example I guess would be Nippon-Chemi-Con 
(Yahoo
> gives some numerical symbol, don't have it handy) which does make
> capacitors and other electronics for auto and other industries.  
So:
> yes, they do make a sort of ultracapacitor, though it's hard to
> research them the way I might with another company, and nail down 
what
> percentage of their business seems committed to progressive
> technologies in this area.




 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
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