Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Well now Dermot. You can sure waste a person's time attacking the unassailable and defending the indefensible eh? Now you're wasting a bit more, though I'm not exactly short of much better things to do. This is an end to it though. >Hi Keith, > >Where is all this anger and aggression coming from? From you? It's a threadbare tactic when someone's confronted with challenges to their cherished notions that they can't answer to dub it an attack and "respond" with a "counter-attack". Everyone else can see it but them. It lacks integrity too. You're free to BS yourself as much as you like but don't try to foist it on others. Or not here anyway. There was no attack, no anger, no aggression. Just straightforward, that's all, but it didn't kowtow to your pretences. Then there's this: >Greens maniacs > >Rome: Far from being peace-loving and unaggressive, vegetarians have >strong violent and sadomasochistic tendencies, Italian psychoanalyst >Sandro Gindro says. > >[Sandro Gindro in an article published in Catholic Studies (389-390, 1993)] I've met a few vegetarians who agreed with that. Gindro is a respected figure, especially in ethical studies, so be careful how you try to knock him, as you probably will do, either that or ignore it and pretend it didn't happen. >I think you let >yourself down when you descend to comments like this: > > >Hi Dermot > > > >That's all?? Umph. Hardly worth the effort. Well, it's rather mild, considering. You posted a bunch of assertions which you only managed to make at all by snipping and ignoring a very large amount of previous material from quite a few people besides me. You addressed it to me by name. I sent you a 5,848-word response. In your usual style, you snipped 5,812 words from my reply, leaving 36 words, and agreed to a limited, conditional response to only one question, shorn of its context, and didn't even answer that one (which you'd already evaded a number of times). So I put it all back again, but you've ignored it again. It's obvious by now that when you do that you think it vanishes from the face of Planet Earth and from existence, like people think when they flush a toilet. It certainly seems to vanish from your awareness most effectively. But why would you think it would vanish from mine too? Sorry to be the bearer of such really lousy news, but what happens doesn't change just because you want it to, it's all still there, just as it was, twice, and it says now just what it said when I wrote it: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg58576.html Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming You snipped 99.38% of my reply and evaded the remaining 0.62%. Damned right it was hardly worth the effort. Now you wouldn't consider this kind of repeated contemptuous brushing aside of whatever you find unpalatable to be aggressive would you. Still, I didn't respond aggressively. Why would I? People have to feel threatened somehow before they'd do that, and I still wouldn't respond that way, I don't do aggression, it doesn't work very well. It was just straightforward. But you don't do straightforward. Well that's your problem not mine. > >What other kind have there been Dermot? What kind of questions won't > >you try to respond to? > > > >And why don't you just respond to that, just as it is right there > >above? Your point is in tatters. Yes, pertinent enough observations. >Maybe you're eating too much red meat! No surprise that you'd fall for that bit of sucker-bait too, LOL! I'll admit I did eschew the raw minced horsemeat sashimi at the charcoal grill we had dinner at on our way back from Kyoto University on Friday evening probably while you were writing this stuff, though others were chewing it happily enough (long life expectancy, the Japanese). Have you read this? Nice beddy-byes tale for you: http://journeytoforever.org/keith/MMT/keith_doggie.html Pass the Doggie Bag Anyway I'm certainly going to have you for breakfast, not that I expect to derive any nourishment from it. But there is one last point still to be made. > > From both, and others, and more recently various comments on your > >post on whether plants have emotions or not. There's been a lot of > >discussion, you can't just sidestep it. > > >I haven't sidestepped anything. LOLx2! Please see above. Go on, try, it won't hurt, much. >I've dealt with the research on plants >having emotions and on the whole non-argument about not eating plants >because they have "feelings". Are you reading all the posts. See my >replies to Andres and Marilyn on 27 Nov and 1
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hi Keith, Andres and Marilyn, I have tried to deal with the argument concerning plants and pain but I obviously haven't made myself clearly understood? Below please find a more comprehensive reply which comes from the book ANIMAL LIBERATION by Professor Peter Singer. SPECIESISM TODAY I have said that the difference between animals like deer - or pigs and chickens, for that matter - whom we ought not to think of "harvesting," and crops like corn, which we may harvest, is that the animals are capable of feeling pleasure and pain, while the plants are not. At this point someone is bound to ask: "How do we know that plants do not suffer?" This objection may arise from a genuine concern for plants; but more often those raising it do not seriously contemplate extending consideration to plants if it should be shown that they suffer; instead they hope to show that if we were to act on the principle I have advocated we would have to stop eating plants as well as animals, and so would starve to death. The conclusion they draw is that if it is impossible to live without violating the principle of equal consideration, we need not bother about it at all, but may go on as we have always done, eating plants and animals. The objection is weak in both fact and logic. There is no reliable evidence that plants are capable of feeling pleasure or pain. Some years ago a popular book, "The Secret Life of Plants", claimed that plants have all sorts of remarkable abilities, including the ability to read people's minds. The most striking experiments cited in the book were not carried out at serious research institutions, and attempts by researchers in major universities to repeat the experiments have failed to obtain any positive results. The book's claims have now been completely discredited. In the first chapter of this book I gave three distinct grounds for believing that nonhuman animals can feel pain: behavior, the nature of their nervous systems, and the evolutionary usefulness of pain. None of these gives us any reason to believe that plants feel pain. In the absence of scientifically credible experimental findings, there is no observable behavior that suggests pain; nothing resembling a central nervous system has been found in plants; and it is difficult to imagine why species that are incapable of moving away from a source of pain or using the perception of pain to avoid death in any other way should have evolved the capacity to feel pain. Therefore the belief that plants feel pain appears to be quite unjustified. So much for the factual basis of this objection. Now let us consider its logic. Assume that, improbable as it seems, researchers do turn up evidence suggesting that plants feel pain. It would still not follow that we may as well eat what we have always eaten. If we must inflict pain or starve, we would then have to choose the lesser evil. Presumably it would still be true that plants suffer less than animals, and therefore it would still be better to eat plants than to eat animals. Indeed this conclusion would follow even if plants were as sensitive as animals, since the inefficiency of meat production means that those who eat meat are responsible for the indirect destruction of at least ten times as many plants as are vegetarians! At this point, I admit, the argument becomes farcical, and I have pursued it this far only to show that those who raise this objection but fail to follow out its implications are really just looking for an excuse to go on eating meat. Regards Dermot Donnelly ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hi Keith, Where is all this anger and aggression coming from? I think you let yourself down when you descend to comments like this: >Hi Dermot > >That's all?? Umph. Hardly worth the effort. > > >What other kind have there been Dermot? What kind of questions won't >you try to respond to? > >And why don't you just respond to that, just as it is right there >above? Your point is in tatters. > > Maybe you're eating too much red meat! > From both, and others, and more recently various comments on your >post on whether plants have emotions or not. There's been a lot of >discussion, you can't just sidestep it. > I haven't sidestepped anything. I've dealt with the research on plants having emotions and on the whole non-argument about not eating plants because they have "feelings". Are you reading all the posts. See my replies to Andres and Marilyn on 27 Nov and 1 Dec. In the reply following this I will respond again to the points raised about plants and pain being a spurious argument against vegetarianism. For you to accuse someone of sidestepping issues is rich. When evidence of the sustainability of stockless farming is presented to you your reply is: "Please don't ask me to criticise some of the Soil Association's more recent work, I can but I don't want to." When I pointed out some of the crude propaganda emanating from Sally Fallon's site you sidestepped it by commenting: "You don't surprise me Dermot. Sorry we stop right there." You'll have to do better than that Keith. snip >>>There is no way of proving that an agricultural system is sustainable. >>> >>> >>Yes there is. >> >> >> >>>Sustainable means, by definition, that it can go on forever and it is >>>obviously impossible to test that. >>> >>> >>It's not impossible. You can philosophise about what "forever" >>means, but it's demonstrable in practical terms. >> >> There is nothing philosophical about it. If you don't get the point that it is impossible to prove something is sustainable forever then there is little point discussing it. >>>All we can say is that one system is >>>more likely to be sustainable than another one. So I don't agree with >>>your claim to have proved that animal farming systems are sustainable. >>> >>> >>I didn't claim to have proved it. >> >> What did you mean then when you said: "It's not up to me to prove anything, already done that, it's up to you to disprove it, and I think you have some studying to do." snip >>I know you won't like this, but you're just not qualified to discuss >>this subject fully unless you've read the work of Weston A. Price. >>See: >> >> This is elitism in the extreme. You can't discuss anything unless you are "qualified". Does this mean that one cannot take a position on nuclear power without being a nuclear engineer? Can you be anti-GMO without a PhD in Biochemistry? No, what you do is try to listen to the arguments from knowledgable people on both sides and then you make your decision. Sometimes if it is a very technical argument such as the nuclear power engineering then you may not understand the nuances of all the arguments so you have to base your view on somebody or some institution you trust. In the area of sustainable agriculture I place my trust in the SOIL ASSOCIATION and not in Sally Fallon or Weston. A. Price. As far as my arguments being in tatters goes, I think it is you who has the consistency problem in your line of reasoning. You assert that: "It's unethical to kill ANYTHING for no good reason, unethical and not sustainable." Yet when you were asked if you would still eat animals if it were possible to have sustainable agriculture without them you replied, "Yes". I think you need to do a lot more studying on the subject of ethics. Again I recommend PRACTICAL ETHICS by Peter Singer. snip >>Your view isn't wholistic, though you think it is. You're >>compartmenting living things into cubicles of your own devising. >>Life doesn't work like that. >> You are the one compartmenting living things into cubicles. You are saying that killing creatures who possess sentiency is ok once they don't happen to belong to YOUR species. How convenient. This type of thinking justified slavery in the past i.e. he doesn't belong to my race therefore it is ok to treat him as property. We call it racism now. She doesn't belong to my sex therefore it is ok to discriminate and opprerss her. We call it sexism now. Hopefully before long we will have more common use of the word "speciesism". It is so pervasive in our society that it is almost invisible. Regards Dermot Donnelly ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofue
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
On 11/30/05, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Greetings Ken > > That was a real pleasure to read, thankyou. You're quite welcome. > Your "food shed", that's great! Footprints and food sheds. I wish I had coined the term but, my best buddy uses the phrase regularly and I'm pretty sure that he stole it from one or another writer. A few months back I stumbled across the article below in the archives. Looks like Doug Woodward first posted it. I found it to be very interesting and figure that it might be a good time for it to get another look. Based solely on this article I really don't see anything that precludes animal free organic farming from being sustainable. It appears to point to both organic farming with and without animals as being sustainable. In my opinion, it clearly shows advantages of organic farming both with or without animals. But you all can be the judge of that. The Institute of Science in Society: Science Society Sustainability http://www.i-sis.org.uk General Enquiries [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website/Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] ISIS Director [EMAIL PROTECTED] This article can be found on the I-SIS website at http://www.i-sis.org.uk/OBCA.php ISIS Press Release 12/09/05 Organic Agriculture Enters Mainstream ** Organic Yields on Par with Conventional and Ahead During Drought Years But by far the greatest gains are due to savings on damages to public health and the environment estimated at more than US$59 billion a year Dr. Mae-Wan Ho puts the nail on the coffin on industrial agriculture A fully referenced version of this article is posted on ISIS members' website http://www.i-sis.org.uk/full/OBCAFull.php. Details here http://www.i-sis.org.uk/membership.php Myths die hard Scientists who should know better - if only they had kept up with the literature - continue to tell the world that organic agriculture invariably means lower yields, especially compared to industrial high input agriculture, even when this has long been proven false (see for example, "Organic agriculture fights back" SiS 16 [1]; http://www.i-sis.org.uk/isisnews/sis16.php "Organic production works", SiS 25 [2]). http://www.i-sis.org.uk/isisnews/sis25.php Researchers led by David Pimenthal, ecologist and agricultural scientist at Cornell University, New York, have now reviewed data from long-term field investigations and confirmed that organic yields are no different from conventional under normal growing conditions, but that they are far ahead during drought years [3]. The reasons are well known: organic soils have greater capacity to retain water as well as nutrients such as nitrogen. Organic soils are also more efficient carbon sinks, and organic management saves on fossil fuel, both of which are important for mitigating global warming. But by far the greatest gains are in savings on externalised costs associated with conventional industrial farming, which are estimated to exceed 25 percent of the total market value of United States' agricultural output. Long-term field trials at Rodale Institute >From 1981 through 2002, field investigations were conducted at Rodale Institute in Kutztown, Pennsylvania on 6.1 ha. Three different cropping systems: conventional, animal manure and legume-based organic, and legume-based organic. Plots (18 x 92 m) were split into three (6 x 92 m) subplots, which are large enough for farm-scale equipment to be used for operations and harvesting. The main plots were separated with a 1.5 m grass strip to minimize cross movement of soil, fertilizers, and pesticides. Each of the three cropping systems was replicated eight times. The conventional system based on synthetic fertilizer and herbicide use, represented a typical cash-grain 5-year crop rotation (corn, corn, soybeans, corn, soybeans) that reflects commercial conventional operations in the region and throughout the Midwest. According to USDA 2003 data, there are more than 40 million ha in this production system in North America. Crop residues were left on the surface of the land to conserve soil and water; but no cover crops were used during the non-growing season. The organic animal-based cropping represented a typical livestock operation in which grain crops were grown for animal feed, not cash sale. This rotation was more complex: corn, soybeans, corn silage, wheat, and red clover-alfalfa hay, as well as a rye cover crop before corn silage and soybeans. Aged cattle manure served as the nitrogen source and applied at 5.6 tonnes per ha (dry), 2 years out of every 5 immediately before ploughing the soil for corn. Additional nitrogen was supplied by the plough-down of legume-hay crops. The total nitrogen applied per ha was about 40 kilograms per year or 198 kg per ha for any given year with a corn crop. Weed control relied on mechanical cultivation, weed-suppressing crop rotations, and relay cropping, in which one crop acted
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hi Dermot That's all?? Umph. Hardly worth the effort. >Hi Keith, >Thanks for the reply. I'm puzzled by: > > >>My point is that IF we can tolerate this diet that we should > >>because it is unethical to kill sentient creatures for no good reason. > >>ANIMALS HAVE RIGHTS. Just because they are dumb doesn't mean we can > >>deprive them of a happy existance because they happen to taste nice. > >> > >> > > > >You haven't really responded to what people have said about that. > >Your main concern seems to be with what's sentient and what's not. > >It's unethical to kill ANYTHING for no good reason, unethical and not > >sustainable. > > > >I'll try to respond to specific questions. What other kind have there been Dermot? What kind of questions won't you try to respond to? And why don't you just respond to that, just as it is right there above? Your point is in tatters. >Were they from you or from >Andres? From both, and others, and more recently various comments on your post on whether plants have emotions or not. There's been a lot of discussion, you can't just sidestep it. You've proposed some of the same arguments twice, and had them shot down twice. You've dumped almost the whole of my previous response, have you decided it wasn't "specific"? I'll put it back again for you, below. Best Keith >Regards >Dermot Previous: >Hello Dermot > >>Hi Keith, >> >>I'd like to address some of the points you raised in your reply to me on >>Oct 2nd. >> >>Before we start it may be useful to stress the views we probably have in >>common and hopefully that the rest of the list have in common as well. >> >>1. Modern intensive farming is unsustainable and is unnecessarily cruel >>to a wide variety of animals. >> >>2. To combat this cruelty we should boycott the produce of intensively >>farmed animals thereby forcing farmers to adopt more sustainable and >>cruelty free methods of farming. >> >>3. We should eat only free range meat or dairy produce. >> >>If this could be achieved I believe 90% of the suffering that is >>inflicted on animals would be eradicated. > >Regarding #2, "intensively farmed" is not a clear enough >description. Sustainable food-production methods can also be very >intensive, such as Ken Hargesheimer's "mini-farming" or John >Jeavons's "Biointensive" method, or Chinese-type farming methods. >Industrialised or concentrated are better terms, or perhaps >fossil-fuel farming, since that's what it truly is. > >Nor does such a narrowly focused boycott make much sense, at least >on its own. You should also boycott the produce of industrially >grown plants. Though the two are separated in practice (a large part >of the problem) they're absolutely part of the same phenomenon, >along with the entire food processing and distribution system. You >make a mistake by separating animal production as the focus for >special attack. > >>There are a number of points which I disagree with you on, the chief >>among them being that animal inputs are necessary for sustainable >>agriculture. > >Sure. > >>I know you don't accept that there is such a thing as sustainable >>farming without animals but the Vegan Organic Trust in Britain is an >>organisation that is dedicated to the promotion of stockfree, organic, >>sustainable farming. > >Yes I know. I'm unimpressed, I'm afraid. They make the same mistake >you do below, that it all remains to be proved, but it ain't so. The >burden of proof is on them, but they can't prove it, for the reasons >you explain. Same with your previous examples (further below). > >>They are not some crackpot type of organisation that have vague >>aspirations about veganism. > >I know that too. > >>Their certification process for declaring >>farms to be truly organic, stockfree and sustainable is carried out by >>the SOIL ASSOCIATION'S certifying body. As you are no doubt aware the >>SOIL ASSOCIATION has an international reputation second to none and I >>have faith in their integrity. > >I first worked with the Soil Association more than 20 years ago and >I know their work from their founding. I wouldn't say they're >"second to none", nobody is. I'm afraid I'm not impressed by organic >certification. > >>There is no way of proving that an agricultural system is sustainable. > >Yes there is. > >>Sustainable means, by definition, that it can go on forever and it is >>obviously impossible to test that. > >It's not impossible. You can philosophise about what "forever" >means, but it's demonstrable in practical terms. > >>All we can say is that one system is >>more likely to be sustainable than another one. So I don't agree with >>your claim to have proved that animal farming systems are sustainable. > >I didn't claim to have proved it. > >>On the other hand, it is possible to prove that a given agricultural >>system is unsustainable, if you can show that it uses up one or more of >>the earth's resources faster than they are being replaced. So your claim > >Not MY claim! By now y
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Dermot posted: [snip] > > >It's unethical to kill ANYTHING for no good reason, unethical and not > >sustainable. [snip] This seems to be true. all the documentaries and history ive come across about the Native American cultures allow for taking a non-human life for food reasons as long as the 'Mother' (Earth), and the taken life were shown the proper gratitude for allowing the human life to continue. there are variants culture to culture, but this is a very basic description that applies in general. i would guess there are regional similarities all over the world. THAT was ethical, nothing was unneccesarily done. what we have accepted today is totally hopeless. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hi Keith, Thanks for the reply. I'm puzzled by: > > >>My point is that IF we can tolerate this diet that we should >>because it is unethical to kill sentient creatures for no good reason. >>ANIMALS HAVE RIGHTS. Just because they are dumb doesn't mean we can >>deprive them of a happy existance because they happen to taste nice. >> >> > >You haven't really responded to what people have said about that. >Your main concern seems to be with what's sentient and what's not. >It's unethical to kill ANYTHING for no good reason, unethical and not >sustainable. > I'll try to respond to specific questions. Were they from you or from Andres? Regards Dermot ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
>On 11/30/05, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Greetings Ken > > > > That was a real pleasure to read, thankyou. > >You're quite welcome. > > > Your "food shed", that's great! Footprints and food sheds. > >I wish I had coined the term but, my best buddy uses the phrase >regularly and I'm pretty sure that he stole it from one or another >writer. > >A few months back I stumbled across the article below in the archives. > Looks like Doug Woodward first posted it. I found it to be very >interesting and figure that it might be a good time for it to get >another look. Based solely on this article I really don't see >anything that precludes animal free organic farming from being >sustainable. It appears to point to both organic farming with and >without animals as being sustainable. In my opinion, it clearly shows >advantages of organic farming both with or without animals. But you >all can be the judge of that. Poor old David Pimentel, nobody spells his name right. Ken, that's not what this research was attempting to prove. To demonstrate it you'd need to consider a hell of a lot more than just yields, nitrogen availability and carbon levels. Maybe you can even get away with no-animal farming for one or two generations, maybe even longer, but so what? What did the Native Americans say, six generations? Many people have had (have) such ideas. Many of them have more than proved it, but none of them have been vegetarians. The report by Pimentel surprised me because the research had been reported previously and Pimentel added nothing that I could see except himself. But as we all know he's good at getting himself published no matter what. I definitely wouldn't trust Pimentel on such issues as the sustainability of mixed vs no-animal farming systems. If you're interested in organics and sustainability, there's a good round-up of the relevant research below. Of course the real proof is much greater and more convincing - what millions of organic farmers all over the world have written on their land in the last 70 years. I should also say that calling industrialised farming "conventional" agriculture is a serious misnomer. Agriculture wasn't born yesterday, it would take rather more than three or four decades to make such a total departure from all ideas of husbandry "conventional". Also this, from the ISIS report on Pimentel: >The total externalised cost of conventional agriculture per >year is $59.5 billion. This represents 27.4 percent of the >entire agricultural output ($217.2 billion in 2002 [6]). The externalised cost would be at least $217.2 billion. See: "Crops without profit", New Scientist, 18 December 1999 -- Low-cost food, the great achievement of postwar high-input intensive farming, may be an illusion. The most detailed study yet of the industry's wider balance sheet has found the costs of cleaning up pollution, repairing habitats and coping with sickness caused by farming almost equals the industry's income. The true cost of £208 per hectare is double the amount suggested by previous, less detailed, studies of the costs in Germany and the US. But the survey's chief author, Jules Pretty of the Centre for Environment and Society at the University of Essex, describes this figure as "very conservative". Environmental economists say the findings suggest the need for a radical rethink of Europe's farming policy. http://www.biotech-info.net/crops_without_profit.html An assessment of the total external costs of UK agriculture, J.N. Pretty, C. Brett, D. Gee, R.E. Hine, C.F. Mason, J.I.L. Morison, H. Raven, M.D. Rayment, G. van der Bijl, Agricultural Systems 65 (2) (2000) pp. 113-136 -- this paper was this peer-reviewed journal's second-most-popular download of the year. The report: http://www2.essex.ac.uk/ces/ResearchProgrammes/Externalities/AgSystTot alExtCostsUKagri.htm The US is about the same. http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0418-04.htm Published on Thursday, April 18, 2002 in the Los Angeles Times Dispel the Myth That Cheap Food Comes Without High Costs by Frances Moore Lappe and Anna Lappe Etc etc. All best Keith http://journeytoforever.org/garden_organiccase.html The case for organics Scientific studies and reports Effect of Agricultural Methods on Nutritional Quality: A Comparison of Organic with Conventional Crops, Virginia Worthington MS, ScD, CNS, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, 1998, Alternative Therapies, Volume 4, 1998, pages 58-69 -- Virginia Worthington reviewed available research comparing the nutritional value of organically grown and conventionally grown produce. She concluded that organic produce is nutritionally superior. She compared the composition of vegetables grown simultaneously under different farming conditions, conducting 41 studies with 1,240 comparisons of 35 vitamins and minerals. Organically grown produce was higher in most minerals and vitamins and lower in potentially harmful nitrates, whic
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
On 11/30/05, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Greetings Ken > > That was a real pleasure to read, thankyou. You're quite welcome. > Your "food shed", that's great! Footprints and food sheds. I wish I had coined the term but, my best buddy uses the phrase regularly and I'm pretty sure that he stole it from one or another writer. A few months back I stumbled across the article below in the archives. Looks like Doug Woodward first posted it. I found it to be very interesting and figure that it might be a good time for it to get another look. Based solely on this article I really don't see anything that precludes animal free organic farming from being sustainable. It appears to point to both organic farming with and without animals as being sustainable. In my opinion, it clearly shows advantages of organic farming both with or without animals. But you all can be the judge of that. The Institute of Science in Society: Science Society Sustainability http://www.i-sis.org.uk General Enquiries [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website/Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] ISIS Director [EMAIL PROTECTED] This article can be found on the I-SIS website at http://www.i-sis.org.uk/OBCA.php ISIS Press Release 12/09/05 Organic Agriculture Enters Mainstream ** Organic Yields on Par with Conventional and Ahead During Drought Years But by far the greatest gains are due to savings on damages to public health and the environment estimated at more than US$59 billion a year Dr. Mae-Wan Ho puts the nail on the coffin on industrial agriculture A fully referenced version of this article is posted on ISIS members' website http://www.i-sis.org.uk/full/OBCAFull.php. Details here http://www.i-sis.org.uk/membership.php Myths die hard Scientists who should know better - if only they had kept up with the literature - continue to tell the world that organic agriculture invariably means lower yields, especially compared to industrial high input agriculture, even when this has long been proven false (see for example, "Organic agriculture fights back" SiS 16 [1]; http://www.i-sis.org.uk/isisnews/sis16.php "Organic production works", SiS 25 [2]). http://www.i-sis.org.uk/isisnews/sis25.php Researchers led by David Pimenthal, ecologist and agricultural scientist at Cornell University, New York, have now reviewed data from long-term field investigations and confirmed that organic yields are no different from conventional under normal growing conditions, but that they are far ahead during drought years [3]. The reasons are well known: organic soils have greater capacity to retain water as well as nutrients such as nitrogen. Organic soils are also more efficient carbon sinks, and organic management saves on fossil fuel, both of which are important for mitigating global warming. But by far the greatest gains are in savings on externalised costs associated with conventional industrial farming, which are estimated to exceed 25 percent of the total market value of United States' agricultural output. Long-term field trials at Rodale Institute >From 1981 through 2002, field investigations were conducted at Rodale Institute in Kutztown, Pennsylvania on 6.1 ha. Three different cropping systems: conventional, animal manure and legume-based organic, and legume-based organic. Plots (18 x 92 m) were split into three (6 x 92 m) subplots, which are large enough for farm-scale equipment to be used for operations and harvesting. The main plots were separated with a 1.5 m grass strip to minimize cross movement of soil, fertilizers, and pesticides. Each of the three cropping systems was replicated eight times. The conventional system based on synthetic fertilizer and herbicide use, represented a typical cash-grain 5-year crop rotation (corn, corn, soybeans, corn, soybeans) that reflects commercial conventional operations in the region and throughout the Midwest. According to USDA 2003 data, there are more than 40 million ha in this production system in North America. Crop residues were left on the surface of the land to conserve soil and water; but no cover crops were used during the non-growing season. The organic animal-based cropping represented a typical livestock operation in which grain crops were grown for animal feed, not cash sale. This rotation was more complex: corn, soybeans, corn silage, wheat, and red clover-alfalfa hay, as well as a rye cover crop before corn silage and soybeans. Aged cattle manure served as the nitrogen source and applied at 5.6 tonnes per ha (dry), 2 years out of every 5 immediately before ploughing the soil for corn. Additional nitrogen was supplied by the plough-down of legume-hay crops. The total nitrogen applied per ha was about 40 kilograms per year or 198 kg per ha for any given year with a corn crop. Weed control relied on mechanical cultivation, weed-suppressing crop rotations, and relay cropping, in which one crop acted
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Greetings, While I am not Keith, I have discovered that the rotation depends on what I need to accomplish. for example: Did I make the mistake of feeding hay in one place too long when it was wet? Then I need to pound some rebar holes, fill them with corn and turn the pigs in for a few days, followed by the chickens to level the ground and to clean up the weed seeds, so I can replant. Are parasites a problem? Grazing cows then sheep next on the same pasture can help. Micro climate plays a huge role in planning what goes when and where. Think of it as a giant jig saw puzzle that Mother Nature occasionally stirs up. You will never be bored. Bright Blessings, Kim At 08:46 AM 12/2/2005, you wrote: Hello, Keith, I suspected that diversity was necessary with the animals if it is necessary for plants and soil. Any particular rotations or combinations work best? Thanks for the benefit of your experience and knowledge. I also applaud your amazing dexerity. Milking compost worms is really difficult. :-> Tom From: Keith Addison [ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 13:59:13 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming >Quick question. Can the animals just be earthworms or are rumanants required? > >Tom Irwin Hello Tom I spent 20 years trying to get earthworms to stand in for a cow, and failed. And I really hated the milk! Sorry, just kidding... (But I've eaten wormburger, very good!) Well, okay, it would probably take a lot longer than that to prove it, but by that time there wasn't much hope that it could work and a lot of indication that it wouldn't. Scant hope in the first place. I'm afraid earthworms are to be counted on the receiving side, along with all the soil micro-organisms, not among the ruminants, they do a different job. Or a different part of the same job. I don't think it's confined to ruminants though, I reckon grazing should be biodiverse, like the grasses are and the soil bugs. Maybe the more biodiverse it is the fewer ruminants you need in the mix. Also it involves composting as well, and if you're an artful composter it doesn't much matter what kind of manure you use. Lots of variables to juggle with. If you add earthworms at the composting stage, or rather manure worms, you can get a lot more options, but I think that's about as far back in the process as earthworms go. I wish I could find the reference, I've got it somewhere (on paper!), but it seems Europe's main grazing animal is the vole. Voles eat more grass than anything else does. They have to be playing an important overall role but they sure aren't ruminants. I never managed to get hold of any vole dung to experiment with and there's not a lot of literature on the role of the vole and how long the pasture will last yer. Best Keith snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hello Dermot, I suppose a fair test, not a good one, would be how long has the organic trust farms been operating and can they still grow most all crop types with normal yields. If your have farms operating 100 years or so and can still grow most crops with noirmal yields I say you were sustainable. If there are some things you could grow with normal yields and now cannot then something is missing. Tom Irwin From: dermot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 18:11:12 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farmingHi Keith,I'd like to address some of the points you raised in your reply to me on Oct 2nd.Before we start it may be useful to stress the views we probably have in common and hopefully that the rest of the list have in common as well.1. Modern intensive farming is unsustainable and is unnecessarily cruel to a wide variety of animals.2. To combat this cruelty we should boycott the produce of intensively farmed animals thereby forcing farmers to adopt more sustainable and cruelty free methods of farming.3. We should eat only free range meat or dairy produce.If this could be achieved I believe 90% of the suffering that is inflicted on animals would be eradicated.There are a number of points which I disagree with you on, the chief among them being that animal inputs are necessary for sustainable agriculture.I know you don't accept that there is such a thing as sustainable farming without animals but the Vegan Organic Trust in Britain is an organisation that is dedicated to the promotion of stockfree, organic, sustainable farming.They are not some crackpot type of organisation that have vague aspirations about veganism. Their certification process for declaring farms to be truly organic, stockfree and sustainable is carried out by the SOIL ASSOCIATION'S certifying body. As you are no doubt aware the SOIL ASSOCIATION has an international reputation second to none and I have faith in their integrity.There is no way of proving that an agricultural system is sustainable. Sustainable means, by definition, that it can go on forever and it is obviously impossible to test that. All we can say is that one system is more likely to be sustainable than another one. So I don't agree with your claim to have proved that animal farming systems are sustainable. On the other hand, it is possible to prove that a given agricultural system is unsustainable, if you can show that it uses up one or more of the earth's resources faster than they are being replaced. So your claim to have proved that stockless farming is unsustainable could in principle be true, but I trust an organisation such as the SOIL ASSOCIATION when they say it can be sustainable.It is true that mixed farming was the dominant form of agriculture for centuries, if not millennia, but this does not in itself prove that it is sustainable. A number of agricultural practices, such as ploughing, were carried on for a very long time but have now been shown to be unsustainable. It is also possible that a given system could be sustainable at a certain human population size and unsustainable at a greater population.In our last exchange you recommended Sally Fallon's site. www.westonaprice.orgI visited this site as you recommended and was immediately drawn to the "Myths and Truths About Vegetarianism" section.My reaction on reading this was that this site had no credibility. Here's why.A Dr Stephen Byrnes starts off the "myths" by telling us of a story where a woman visits her doctor following a miscarriage:"Upon questioning Tanya about her diet, I quickly saw the cause of her infections, as well as her miscarriage: she had virtually no fat in her diet and was also mostly a vegetarian. Because of the plentiful media rhetoric about the supposed dangers of animal product consumption, as opposed to the alleged health benefits of the vegetarian lifestyle, Tanya had deliberately removed such things as cream, butter, meats and fish from her diet. Although she liked liver, she avoided it due to worries over "toxins."Tanya and Bill left with a bottle of vitamin A, other supplements and a dietary prescription that included plentiful amounts of animal fats and meat. Just before leaving my office, Tanya looked at me and said ruefully: "I just don't know what to believe sometimes. Everywhere I look there is all this low-fat, vegetarian stuff recommended. I followed it, and look what happened." I assured her that if she and her husband changed their diets and allowed sufficient time for her weakened uterus to heal, they would be happy parents in due time. In November 2000, Bill and Tanya happily gave birth to their first child, a girl."So we have a scenario where someone takes up a "mostly" vegetarian diet with no knowledge of what constitutes a proper vegetarian diet and suffers ill health. She is then prescribed a meat diet and hey presto, everything is fine. The clear implication here is that veget
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hello, Keith, I suspected that diversity was necessary with the animals if it is necessary for plants and soil. Any particular rotations or combinations work best? Thanks for the benefit of your experience and knowledge. I also applaud your amazing dexerity. Milking compost worms is really difficult. :-> Tom From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 13:59:13 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming>Quick question. Can the animals just be earthworms or are rumanants required?>>Tom IrwinHello TomI spent 20 years trying to get earthworms to stand in for a cow, and failed. And I really hated the milk! Sorry, just kidding... (But I've eaten wormburger, very good!)Well, okay, it would probably take a lot longer than that to prove it, but by that time there wasn't much hope that it could work and a lot of indication that it wouldn't. Scant hope in the first place. I'm afraid earthworms are to be counted on the receiving side, along with all the soil micro-organisms, not among the ruminants, they do a different job. Or a different part of the same job.I don't think it's confined to ruminants though, I reckon grazing should be biodiverse, like the grasses are and the soil bugs. Maybe the more biodiverse it is the fewer ruminants you need in the mix. Also it involves composting as well, and if you're an artful composter it doesn't much matter what kind of manure you use. Lots of variables to juggle with. If you add earthworms at the composting stage, or rather manure worms, you can get a lot more options, but I think that's about as far back in the process as earthworms go.I wish I could find the reference, I've got it somewhere (on paper!), but it seems Europe's main grazing animal is the vole. Voles eat more grass than anything else does. They have to be playing an important overall role but they sure aren't ruminants. I never managed to get hold of any vole dung to experiment with and there's not a lot of literature on the role of the vole and how long the pasture will last yer.BestKeithsnip___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hello Dermot >Hi Keith, > >I'd like to address some of the points you raised in your reply to me on >Oct 2nd. > >Before we start it may be useful to stress the views we probably have in >common and hopefully that the rest of the list have in common as well. > >1. Modern intensive farming is unsustainable and is unnecessarily cruel >to a wide variety of animals. > >2. To combat this cruelty we should boycott the produce of intensively >farmed animals thereby forcing farmers to adopt more sustainable and >cruelty free methods of farming. > >3. We should eat only free range meat or dairy produce. > >If this could be achieved I believe 90% of the suffering that is >inflicted on animals would be eradicated. Regarding #2, "intensively farmed" is not a clear enough description. Sustainable food-production methods can also be very intensive, such as Ken Hargesheimer's "mini-farming" or John Jeavons's "Biointensive" method, or Chinese-type farming methods. Industrialised or concentrated are better terms, or perhaps fossil-fuel farming, since that's what it truly is. Nor does such a narrowly focused boycott make much sense, at least on its own. You should also boycott the produce of industrially grown plants. Though the two are separated in practice (a large part of the problem) they're absolutely part of the same phenomenon, along with the entire food processing and distribution system. You make a mistake by separating animal production as the focus for special attack. >There are a number of points which I disagree with you on, the chief >among them being that animal inputs are necessary for sustainable >agriculture. Sure. >I know you don't accept that there is such a thing as sustainable >farming without animals but the Vegan Organic Trust in Britain is an >organisation that is dedicated to the promotion of stockfree, organic, >sustainable farming. Yes I know. I'm unimpressed, I'm afraid. They make the same mistake you do below, that it all remains to be proved, but it ain't so. The burden of proof is on them, but they can't prove it, for the reasons you explain. Same with your previous examples (further below). >They are not some crackpot type of organisation that have vague >aspirations about veganism. I know that too. >Their certification process for declaring >farms to be truly organic, stockfree and sustainable is carried out by >the SOIL ASSOCIATION'S certifying body. As you are no doubt aware the >SOIL ASSOCIATION has an international reputation second to none and I >have faith in their integrity. I first worked with the Soil Association more than 20 years ago and I know their work from their founding. I wouldn't say they're "second to none", nobody is. I'm afraid I'm not impressed by organic certification. >There is no way of proving that an agricultural system is sustainable. Yes there is. >Sustainable means, by definition, that it can go on forever and it is >obviously impossible to test that. It's not impossible. You can philosophise about what "forever" means, but it's demonstrable in practical terms. >All we can say is that one system is >more likely to be sustainable than another one. So I don't agree with >your claim to have proved that animal farming systems are sustainable. I didn't claim to have proved it. >On the other hand, it is possible to prove that a given agricultural >system is unsustainable, if you can show that it uses up one or more of >the earth's resources faster than they are being replaced. So your claim Not MY claim! By now you should have gathered at least that this has been established not only through the long cumulative experience of human societies (below) but also by a large body of scientific work conducted by many distinguished scientists and investigators working in many different places and conditions. On the ground work, with real farms, replicable, not just laboratory-hermit stuff. >to have proved that stockless farming is unsustainable could in >principle be true, but I trust an organisation such as the SOIL >ASSOCIATION when they say it can be sustainable. They have no evidence of that, and it is a relatively new claim on their part. All their earlier work was with mixed farming organic systems. Please don't ask me to criticise some of the Soil Association's more recent work, I can but I don't want to. >It is true that mixed farming was the dominant form of agriculture for >centuries, if not millennia, but this does not in itself prove that it >is sustainable. There are traditional farming systems that have proved to be sustainable, very many of them. It's easily established, it's not hard to get indicators of the general levels of fertility, nutritional status and health (lit. "wholeness") of the "soil community" of which the system is a part. (If it's not an integral part of a soil community it won't be sustainable and indeed it won't be there anymore.) If the system is old (many generations) and the levels ar
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Darn. I thought I really had something going with that cute lil sweetpea plant. dermot wrote: >Hi Marilyn, > >The book you mention, "The Secret Life of Plants" by Peter Thomkins and >Christopher Bird, was a bestseller over 20 years ago. It made all sorts >of outlandish claims which were based on the "scientific" work of a >"Dr." Cleve Backster. It turns out that Backster was not in fact a >scientist but a polygraph technician. Is that ironic or what? > >Unfortunately the scientific evidence didn't stand up to scrutiny as >nobody else was able to replicate the results. > >Quite a few books were published debunking the original book but they >were not bestsellers.The truth is pretty boring I'm afraid. Just google >"The Secret Life of Plants and debunk" and you'll see what I mean. > >Regards >Dermot > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > >>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote: >>Hi Andres, >> >>You raised an interesting point below (on 3rd Oct, sorry for late >>reply)about my assertion that there is currently no reliable >>evidence to suggest that plants feel pain. >> >>"I say wait a while, we'll find they do. Science advances slowly, >>with many stumbles along the road, and many dead ends as well." >>(Andres) >> >> >>I'm not saying the following is true, but someone told me about a >>book on the subject of plant "pain" called "The Secret Life of >>Plants" This book and other articles on plants tell of experiments >>that attached to laboratory plants a technology of the type used in >>lie detectors that is extremely sensitive to the tiniest movement. >>When a person burned the plant or harmed it in other ways it >>recoiled strongly. Later when that person would enter the room the >>plants would react the same way, but not to other people. Also, they >>attached these devices to people's plants in their homes and the >>people wrote down their feelings all day and noted the time. At the >>end of each day they compared the recorded feelings with the plant >>reactions recorded on the technology. They were amazed to see that >>plant movement aligned with certain emotions, even when the people >>were on a long trip. >> >>Google brings up over 87,000 sites on this topic if you want to hear >> >> >>from someone who knows something about this. I only know what I was > > >>told by a friend. >> >>___ >>Biofuel mailing list >>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >> >>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >> >>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > >___ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hi Keith, I'd like to address some of the points you raised in your reply to me on Oct 2nd. Before we start it may be useful to stress the views we probably have in common and hopefully that the rest of the list have in common as well. 1. Modern intensive farming is unsustainable and is unnecessarily cruel to a wide variety of animals. 2. To combat this cruelty we should boycott the produce of intensively farmed animals thereby forcing farmers to adopt more sustainable and cruelty free methods of farming. 3. We should eat only free range meat or dairy produce. If this could be achieved I believe 90% of the suffering that is inflicted on animals would be eradicated. There are a number of points which I disagree with you on, the chief among them being that animal inputs are necessary for sustainable agriculture. I know you don't accept that there is such a thing as sustainable farming without animals but the Vegan Organic Trust in Britain is an organisation that is dedicated to the promotion of stockfree, organic, sustainable farming. They are not some crackpot type of organisation that have vague aspirations about veganism. Their certification process for declaring farms to be truly organic, stockfree and sustainable is carried out by the SOIL ASSOCIATION'S certifying body. As you are no doubt aware the SOIL ASSOCIATION has an international reputation second to none and I have faith in their integrity. There is no way of proving that an agricultural system is sustainable. Sustainable means, by definition, that it can go on forever and it is obviously impossible to test that. All we can say is that one system is more likely to be sustainable than another one. So I don't agree with your claim to have proved that animal farming systems are sustainable. On the other hand, it is possible to prove that a given agricultural system is unsustainable, if you can show that it uses up one or more of the earth's resources faster than they are being replaced. So your claim to have proved that stockless farming is unsustainable could in principle be true, but I trust an organisation such as the SOIL ASSOCIATION when they say it can be sustainable. It is true that mixed farming was the dominant form of agriculture for centuries, if not millennia, but this does not in itself prove that it is sustainable. A number of agricultural practices, such as ploughing, were carried on for a very long time but have now been shown to be unsustainable. It is also possible that a given system could be sustainable at a certain human population size and unsustainable at a greater population. In our last exchange you recommended Sally Fallon's site. www.westonaprice.org I visited this site as you recommended and was immediately drawn to the "Myths and Truths About Vegetarianism" section. My reaction on reading this was that this site had no credibility. Here's why. A Dr Stephen Byrnes starts off the "myths" by telling us of a story where a woman visits her doctor following a miscarriage: "Upon questioning Tanya about her diet, I quickly saw the cause of her infections, as well as her miscarriage: she had virtually no fat in her diet and was also mostly a vegetarian. Because of the plentiful media rhetoric about the supposed dangers of animal product consumption, as opposed to the alleged health benefits of the vegetarian lifestyle, Tanya had deliberately removed such things as cream, butter, meats and fish from her diet. Although she liked liver, she avoided it due to worries over "toxins." Tanya and Bill left with a bottle of vitamin A, other supplements and a dietary prescription that included plentiful amounts of animal fats and meat. Just before leaving my office, Tanya looked at me and said ruefully: "I just don't know what to believe sometimes. Everywhere I look there is all this low-fat, vegetarian stuff recommended. I followed it, and look what happened." I assured her that if she and her husband changed their diets and allowed sufficient time for her weakened uterus to heal, they would be happy parents in due time. In November 2000, Bill and Tanya happily gave birth to their first child, a girl." So we have a scenario where someone takes up a "mostly" vegetarian diet with no knowledge of what constitutes a proper vegetarian diet and suffers ill health. She is then prescribed a meat diet and hey presto, everything is fine. The clear implication here is that vegetarianism is inherently unhealthy but it can be cured by meat eating! The fact that she wasn't following a proper vegetarian diet is neither here nor there. This is very crude propaganda and is shallow in the extreme. If all the supposed "myths" presented were true then vegetarians and especially vegans would be dropping like flies. Thankfully they are not. Vegans are one of the most studied group when it comes to nutrition. BBC2 television's HORIZON science programme recently had an investigation
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hi Marilyn, The book you mention, "The Secret Life of Plants" by Peter Thomkins and Christopher Bird, was a bestseller over 20 years ago. It made all sorts of outlandish claims which were based on the "scientific" work of a "Dr." Cleve Backster. It turns out that Backster was not in fact a scientist but a polygraph technician. Is that ironic or what? Unfortunately the scientific evidence didn't stand up to scrutiny as nobody else was able to replicate the results. Quite a few books were published debunking the original book but they were not bestsellers.The truth is pretty boring I'm afraid. Just google "The Secret Life of Plants and debunk" and you'll see what I mean. Regards Dermot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote: >Hi Andres, > >You raised an interesting point below (on 3rd Oct, sorry for late >reply)about my assertion that there is currently no reliable >evidence to suggest that plants feel pain. > >"I say wait a while, we'll find they do. Science advances slowly, >with many stumbles along the road, and many dead ends as well." >(Andres) > > >I'm not saying the following is true, but someone told me about a >book on the subject of plant "pain" called "The Secret Life of >Plants" This book and other articles on plants tell of experiments >that attached to laboratory plants a technology of the type used in >lie detectors that is extremely sensitive to the tiniest movement. >When a person burned the plant or harmed it in other ways it >recoiled strongly. Later when that person would enter the room the >plants would react the same way, but not to other people. Also, they >attached these devices to people's plants in their homes and the >people wrote down their feelings all day and noted the time. At the >end of each day they compared the recorded feelings with the plant >reactions recorded on the technology. They were amazed to see that >plant movement aligned with certain emotions, even when the people >were on a long trip. > >Google brings up over 87,000 sites on this topic if you want to hear >from someone who knows something about this. I only know what I was >told by a friend. > >___ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
>Quick question. Can the animals just be earthworms or are rumanants required? > >Tom Irwin Hello Tom I spent 20 years trying to get earthworms to stand in for a cow, and failed. And I really hated the milk! Sorry, just kidding... (But I've eaten wormburger, very good!) Well, okay, it would probably take a lot longer than that to prove it, but by that time there wasn't much hope that it could work and a lot of indication that it wouldn't. Scant hope in the first place. I'm afraid earthworms are to be counted on the receiving side, along with all the soil micro-organisms, not among the ruminants, they do a different job. Or a different part of the same job. I don't think it's confined to ruminants though, I reckon grazing should be biodiverse, like the grasses are and the soil bugs. Maybe the more biodiverse it is the fewer ruminants you need in the mix. Also it involves composting as well, and if you're an artful composter it doesn't much matter what kind of manure you use. Lots of variables to juggle with. If you add earthworms at the composting stage, or rather manure worms, you can get a lot more options, but I think that's about as far back in the process as earthworms go. I wish I could find the reference, I've got it somewhere (on paper!), but it seems Europe's main grazing animal is the vole. Voles eat more grass than anything else does. They have to be playing an important overall role but they sure aren't ruminants. I never managed to get hold of any vole dung to experiment with and there's not a lot of literature on the role of the vole and how long the pasture will last yer. Best Keith >From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >Sent: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 12:39:00 -0300 >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming > >Greetings Ken > >That was a real pleasure to read, thankyou. > >Your "food shed", that's great! Footprints and food sheds. > > >On 11/28/05, Keith Addison ><[EMAIL PROTECTED] >forever.org> wrote: > > > > > >Not all vegetarians avoid meat because of animal rights issues. > > > > > > Why do they avoid it then? > > > > > > Best > > > > > > Keith > > > >Are you itchin' for a fight? ;^) > >:-) What's that mean-lookin' smiley mean? Are you bigger than me? > >Nope, I never itch for a fight, but I try to be a friend of clarity. > > >Well, I trust that based on our long > >discussion a few months ago, > >But have you any idea how many new members have joined the list since >a few months ago? Nor was that the first time we've been through all >that here. > >snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
I don't know quite how this relates, but when we were making natural plasters for a strawbale I was working on near here, we used a small amount of llama manure in the adhesion coat that went on any wood or plasterboard that was going to be plastered (very little metal lath used). It held very well, even to the plastic buckets we mixed it in if you let them dry. I understand that the secret is that llama manure has alot of enzymes in it, whereas cow manure has less, and horse manure has almost none -- pretty much just masticated grass. I don't know where sheep, goats, geese, or chickens, or earthworms fit in one this, or whether enzyme content means anything for farming, or just for making earthen plasters. On 12/1/05, Tom Irwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Quick question. Can the animals just be earthworms or are rumanants > required? > > Tom Irwin > > > From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > Sent: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 12:39:00 -0300 > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming > > Greetings Ken > > That was a real pleasure to read, thankyou. > > Your "food shed", that's great! Footprints and food sheds. > > >On 11/28/05, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > >Not all vegetarians avoid meat because of animal rights issues. > > > > > > Why do they avoid it then? > > > > > > Best > > > > > > Keith > > > >Are you itchin' for a fight? ;^) > > :-) What's that mean-lookin' smiley mean? Are you bigger than me? > > Nope, I never itch for a fight, but I try to be a friend of clarity. > > >Well, I trust that based on our long > >discussion a few months ago, > > But have you any idea how many new members have joined the list since > a few months ago? Nor was that the first time we've been through all > that here. > > snip > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Quick question. Can the animals just be earthworms or are rumanants required? Tom Irwin From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 12:39:00 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farmingGreetings KenThat was a real pleasure to read, thankyou.Your "food shed", that's great! Footprints and food sheds.>On 11/28/05, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:>> > >Not all vegetarians avoid meat because of animal rights issues.> >> > Why do they avoid it then?> >> > Best> >> > Keith>>Are you itchin' for a fight? ;^):-) What's that mean-lookin' smiley mean? Are you bigger than me?Nope, I never itch for a fight, but I try to be a friend of clarity.>Well, I trust that based on our long>discussion a few months ago,But have you any idea how many new members have joined the list since a few months ago? Nor was that the first time we've been through all that here.snip___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Greetings Ken That was a real pleasure to read, thankyou. Your "food shed", that's great! Footprints and food sheds. >On 11/28/05, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >Not all vegetarians avoid meat because of animal rights issues. > > > > Why do they avoid it then? > > > > Best > > > > Keith > >Are you itchin' for a fight? ;^) :-) What's that mean-lookin' smiley mean? Are you bigger than me? Nope, I never itch for a fight, but I try to be a friend of clarity. >Well, I trust that based on our long >discussion a few months ago, But have you any idea how many new members have joined the list since a few months ago? Nor was that the first time we've been through all that here. Meanwhile the ante got upped. Not only do we have David Pimentel's annual disinfo campaign against ethanol to contend with, this year he found a new friend, Tad Patzek, and they did a duet, in two parts furthermore, attacking not only ethanol but biodiesel too. Arch-shill Denis Avery of the Hudson Institute has now joined the fray. He's been waging a disinfo war against organic farming for years. Many of the "green" groups, especially the "corporate enviros" sector (Big Green), swallow Pimentel's anti-ethanol crap, but they fight Avery over organic farming. But they're agreeing with Avery over biofuels, from George Monbiot a few months ago on. Some of the myths of vegetarianism play right into their hands. Especially if it's true that some or many vegetarians, whatever they might say, really do it as alleged because veggies don't scream and try to escape when you kill them, ie for emotional reasons. To which of course they're welcome, but it means they'll be more likely to believe what they want to believe rather than accept unpalatable facts such as that it's not even possible to grow veggies sustainably without raising animals, or that there is no traditional vegetarian farming system and never has been, or not one that survived. But if you know that it's not so easy to fall for the "food vs fuel" line Pimentel spins. That's why I asked, how spinnable are you, in other words. You sure aren't. :-) All best Keith >that you know why I avoided meat for so >many years. But, I'll bite anyway...there are those that feel that >the land used to grow feed for livestock could be better used to grow >feed for humans. There are also those that believe that there is an >excessive burden placed on the environment by the poor "farming" >practices followed by the large corporate farms that provide most of >the animal-based food products in some portions of the world. > >Keith, before this turns into a heated debate, lets both agree that we >both understand that properly grazing animals helps to amend soil >without harming watersheds. Which really does answer both of the >reasons mentioned above for avoiding meat. > >I had avoided meats and dairies for many, many years because of >environmental damage done be agro-business. Prior to the "Pimentel is >at it again" thread back in July, I followed an almost vegan diet. In >the course of that discussion and over the next 6 weeks or so, I did >some serious searching and found many local farmers that are raising >organic, grassfed meats and organic pastured poultry. My wife and I >had switched to these local farms over the grocery store for the meats >that our kids wished to eat. After some additional "food-mile" >considerations, I have begun eating locally grown, organic, grassfed >meats and dairy to augment the locally grown, organic vegetables that >I was always able to find seasonally. With the exception of rice and >the occasional exotic treat, we have reduced our food shed to a six >mile radius. Once I find a source of local barley, we'll kick the >rice habit also. But, not everyone is so lucky as I am to have these >resources available. If I didn't have these farms close by, I would >be happy to return to a diet of based solely on locally grown plant >foods. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
On 11/28/05, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Not all vegetarians avoid meat because of animal rights issues. > > Why do they avoid it then? > > Best > > Keith Are you itchin' for a fight? ;^) Well, I trust that based on our long discussion a few months ago, that you know why I avoided meat for so many years. But, I'll bite anyway...there are those that feel that the land used to grow feed for livestock could be better used to grow feed for humans. There are also those that believe that there is an excessive burden placed on the environment by the poor "farming" practices followed by the large corporate farms that provide most of the animal-based food products in some portions of the world. Keith, before this turns into a heated debate, lets both agree that we both understand that properly grazing animals helps to amend soil without harming watersheds. Which really does answer both of the reasons mentioned above for avoiding meat. I had avoided meats and dairies for many, many years because of environmental damage done be agro-business. Prior to the "Pimentel is at it again" thread back in July, I followed an almost vegan diet. In the course of that discussion and over the next 6 weeks or so, I did some serious searching and found many local farmers that are raising organic, grassfed meats and organic pastured poultry. My wife and I had switched to these local farms over the grocery store for the meats that our kids wished to eat. After some additional "food-mile" considerations, I have begun eating locally grown, organic, grassfed meats and dairy to augment the locally grown, organic vegetables that I was always able to find seasonally. With the exception of rice and the occasional exotic treat, we have reduced our food shed to a six mile radius. Once I find a source of local barley, we'll kick the rice habit also. But, not everyone is so lucky as I am to have these resources available. If I didn't have these farms close by, I would be happy to return to a diet of based solely on locally grown plant foods. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Two more reasons for being vegetarian: Comparing factory farmed meat with factory farmed vegetables, the meat consumes much more fossil fuel Btu's, and fossil water from aquifers, per calorie of food. Health effects of eating too much red meat. I'm not vegetarian, but I don't eat a big chunk of red meat at each meal like much of America does, mostly because I don't need that much fat and cholesterol in my diet. On 11/27/05, Kurt Nolte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On 11/28/05, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > . > > > > >Not all vegetarians avoid meat because of animal rights issues. > > > > Why do they avoid it then? > > > > Best > > > > Keith > > > > I can't really say much about the main topic of the discussion, but I can > offer an alternative reason for vegetarianism. > > My grandmother on my mother's side was a vegetarian for over forty years, > stemming initially from having to feed five kids on her own in Post-War > America, when meat was more expensive. She'd buy it, and cook it, but her > kids got it first. She got out of the habit of eating meat, and just never > went back until two years before she died. Mom asked why she'd stayed > vegetarian for so long, and she just said "It wasn't bothering me, so I > just didn't think about it." > > Peace > -Kurt > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
On 11/28/05, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: .>Not all vegetarians avoid meat because of animal rights issues.Why do they avoid it then?BestKeith I can't really say much about the main topic of the discussion, but I can offer an alternative reason for vegetarianism. My grandmother on my mother's side was a vegetarian for over forty years, stemming initially from having to feed five kids on her own in Post-War America, when meat was more expensive. She'd buy it, and cook it, but her kids got it first. She got out of the habit of eating meat, and just never went back until two years before she died. Mom asked why she'd stayed vegetarian for so long, and she just said "It wasn't bothering me, so I just didn't think about it." Peace -Kurt ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
So they eat vegetables because cabbages don't scream and try to run away when you kill them? That's probably what it often boils down to, but not always. cabbages? boil down to? Ouch. Keith Addison wrote: >>On 11/27/05, dermot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >>>This is a common argument put forward against vegetarianism. This >>>argument says that if it is shown sometime in the future that plants >>>feel pain then vegetarians will have to give up eating plants. >>> >>> > >So they eat vegetables because cabbages don't scream and try to run >away when you kill them? That's probably what it often boils down to, >but not always. Even then, at least they're aware of it. Most people >haven't got a clue about what happens in abbatoirs (and before that >and after that) and they don't want to know either. On the other hand >not all vegetables are born equal. Which particular cabbage is that, >that's supposed to be healthier? How was it grown, in what sort of >soil? More likely it doesn't have a lot of what it should have and >does have a lot of what it shouldn't have, there are more toxins in >an industrialised cabbage than in an entire beef. > > > >>Not all vegetarians avoid meat because of animal rights issues. >> >> > >Why do they avoid it then? > >Best > >Keith > > > > >>Take care, >>Ken >> >> > > >___ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
>On 11/27/05, dermot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > This is a common argument put forward against vegetarianism. This > > argument says that if it is shown sometime in the future that plants > > feel pain then vegetarians will have to give up eating plants. So they eat vegetables because cabbages don't scream and try to run away when you kill them? That's probably what it often boils down to, but not always. Even then, at least they're aware of it. Most people haven't got a clue about what happens in abbatoirs (and before that and after that) and they don't want to know either. On the other hand not all vegetables are born equal. Which particular cabbage is that, that's supposed to be healthier? How was it grown, in what sort of soil? More likely it doesn't have a lot of what it should have and does have a lot of what it shouldn't have, there are more toxins in an industrialised cabbage than in an entire beef. >Not all vegetarians avoid meat because of animal rights issues. Why do they avoid it then? Best Keith >Take care, >Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Bring out the Attack Turnip. bob allen wrote: >a humorous rejoinder to " are you a vegetarian because you like animals?" no, >it's 'cause I hate >vegetables- I want to jerk them out of the ground, and tear them up and boil >them... : ) > >Ken Dunn wrote: > > >>On 11/27/05, dermot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >> >>>This is a common argument put forward against vegetarianism. This >>>argument says that if it is shown sometime in the future that plants >>>feel pain then vegetarians will have to give up eating plants. >>> >>> >>Not all vegetarians avoid meat because of animal rights issues. >> >>Take care, >>Ken >> >>___ >>Biofuel mailing list >>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >> >>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >> >>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
a humorous rejoinder to " are you a vegetarian because you like animals?" no, it's 'cause I hate vegetables- I want to jerk them out of the ground, and tear them up and boil them... : ) Ken Dunn wrote: > On 11/27/05, dermot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>This is a common argument put forward against vegetarianism. This >>argument says that if it is shown sometime in the future that plants >>feel pain then vegetarians will have to give up eating plants. > > > Not all vegetarians avoid meat because of animal rights issues. > > Take care, > Ken > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob "Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
On 11/27/05, dermot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This is a common argument put forward against vegetarianism. This > argument says that if it is shown sometime in the future that plants > feel pain then vegetarians will have to give up eating plants. Not all vegetarians avoid meat because of animal rights issues. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org wrote: Hi Andres, You raised an interesting point below (on 3rd Oct, sorry for late reply)about my assertion that there is currently no reliable evidence to suggest that plants feel pain. "I say wait a while, we'll find they do. Science advances slowly, with many stumbles along the road, and many dead ends as well." (Andres) I'm not saying the following is true, but someone told me about a book on the subject of plant "pain" called "The Secret Life of Plants" This book and other articles on plants tell of experiments that attached to laboratory plants a technology of the type used in lie detectors that is extremely sensitive to the tiniest movement. When a person burned the plant or harmed it in other ways it recoiled strongly. Later when that person would enter the room the plants would react the same way, but not to other people. Also, they attached these devices to people's plants in their homes and the people wrote down their feelings all day and noted the time. At the end of each day they compared the recorded feelings with the plant reactions recorded on the technology. They were amazed to see that plant movement aligned with certain emotions, even when the people were on a long trip. Google brings up over 87,000 sites on this topic if you want to hear from someone who knows something about this. I only know what I was told by a friend. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hi Andres, You raised an interesting point below (on 3rd Oct, sorry for late reply) about my assertion that there is currently no reliable evidence to suggest that plants feel pain. "I say wait a while, we'll find they do. Science advances slowly, with many stumbles along the road, and many dead ends as well." (Andres) This is a common argument put forward against vegetarianism. This argument says that if it is shown sometime in the future that plants feel pain then vegetarians will have to give up eating plants. The first conclusion drawn from this is that plants should have the same rights as animals. The second conclusion is that this is clearly impossible as it would result in the death of all vegetarians. The final, and false, conclusion is that since we cannot afford rights to plants then we shouldn't afford these rights to animals either! Even in the highly unlikely event that plants can experience pain it would presumably be much less severe than the pain animals experience so we would go for the lesser of two evils. I can't see how it follows that it would then be okay to inflict pain on animals AS WELL. Regards Dermot ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Andres Yver wrote: >Hello Dermot, > >Thanks for the kind and thoughtful reply. I have been a bit flippant in >my response to you, because i have judged too hastily, as i now see by >your words. I shall endeavor to answer your questions as honestly as >possible. > > > > > > > > Hi Andre, Thanks for the nice reply. I'll try to deal with some of the points you raised in a week or so when my workload lessens a little. Regards Dermot ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hello Andres Sorry for the delayed response. >Hello Keith, > >On Friday, September 30, 2005, at 04:48 PM, Keith Addison wrote: > > >> Heh! I Have only met one person that has ever defended chickens. > > > > :-) You just met another one. > >As in, not to be killed chickens. :-) I'm in no position to argue against that. > >> Most > >> people have absolutely no qualms about killing chicken. I used to > >> dislike them because they were scary to me. Got a few talons in the > >> neck and forearms as a boy whilst stealing eggs. Not enough distance > >> between their eyes for a decent brain. > > > > I don't agree with that at all. I've yet to meet a dumb chicken, and > > I've had to do with some bright ones, including currently. > >see below. > > > There's a > > young cock here who understands quite a few English words, for > > instance. There's no doubt about it, it's quite obvious. He has a > > considerable vocabulary, some of it I can understand, or at least get > > the gist of it. He makes some very wry comments! Very sharp. His old > > man is more than sharp, he's *wise*. Dignified with it, and totally > > without fear. I have great respect for him. > >Cocks have one of the higher testicle to body mass ratios. Remember >Zorba? They sure don't get tired! Amazing! LOL! > I believe that most animals can 'see' our mental images. It's very >easy to get animals to do what you want them to if you construct a >mental image of them doing it. For example, sometimes i'd like a cow to >walk through a particular gap in some trees, but not another, more >accessible path. Just concentrate on the image of her walking through >the one i want. It's a combination of an image from her point of view, >and an image of me watching her walk. It's worked with dogs, cats, >cattle, pigs, and horses, as well as some small owls that hang out >around the farm. I wanted them change their nest to a particular place, >so they wouldn't be hurt when we disced a field (they're burrowing >owls). > >Maybe this sounds very woo-woo as Bob would say. I say, just try it >sometime, it works. Keep your brain very still, and just construct the >image. I'll go along with that. There are a few such things I think, along with body language, as said (yours and theirs), the way they learn to fit the sound of speech to different contexts, plus the words they do understand. But if you add it all up together, all the so-called practical parts of communicating with them, it doesn't account for 100% of what's going on. > >> Fierce birds. > > > > Yes, but not only fierce. Tough, uncompromising society they live in. > >Not a rat race, a chicken run? :-) Aarghh!! LOL! > >> Scaly feet. > >> Propensity to crow at 4am. Sudden movements. > > > > They're *fast*! Instant reactions. I've watched them carefully with > > this, as far as I can tell the response comes at the same instant as > > the stimulus. Mirror mind, Zen chickens, LOL! > >Yes. rather like some of the things David Bohm or Karl Pribram were >working on, implicate order, holonomic brain. Quantum chickens! Yes. > > It's hard to find a dumb animal, IMO, unless it's someone's pet. Look > > at this crow in this BBC video clip: > > > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/video/38185000/rm/ > > _38185047_crow_08aug_vi.ram > >Oh no, wasn't trying to suggest they were dumb, just that they scared >me as a child because of the reduced distance between their eyes led me >to fear the sort of brain they would have. Crows are known to be >smarter than housecats, as are octopi! At least by our measures of >intelligence. Octopi are not only smart, they're affectionate. I've got a video of a woman marine biologist and a very large octopus in what can only be called a hug (she called it a hug). >Now sheep and turkeys, on the other hand... I don't think sheep are dumb. I had a sheep that formed an undying friendship with the housecat, they were inseparable. > >> Dinosaur remnants. > > > > Yes. Clever trick, to grow feathers and a self-heating blood supply. > >Well, i've always thought dinosaurs were warm blooded, all along. And >probably feathered as well. At least some of them. >Or perhaps a hybrid system, like modern tunafish, with it's warm >blooded muscles for speed of attack. You're probably right. > >> I > >> wonder if humans have some sort of genetic memory of being preyed upon > >> by sharp beaked scaly legged creatures when we were but little > >> critters > >> that scurried in the shadows. > > > > :-) Been reading Bruce Chatwin? > >No. Will have to look him up. Chatwin was much exercised by what made us afraid of the dark. In the 60s and earlier the fashionable idea was of man the killer ape, violence and aggression come naturally to us, we can't fight our own inner nature after all. This idea isn't exactly extinct, and it's still used to rationalise quite a lot of things. Much of the scientific underpinning for it rested on the hominid fossil discoveries being made especially in South and E
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hello Keith, Dermot, On Sunday, October 2, 2005, at 06:11 PM, Keith Addison wrote: > Hello Dermot >> >> for animal manure. I think they are doing that very successfully >> in Shanghai at the moment. > > They were doing it very successfully in Shanghai a hundred years ago, > not so sure about now. The Chinese still composted absolutely > everything possible then. We've discussed humanure composting here > too, quite a number of us do that, successfully enough. > > But, sorry, even by traditional Chinese standards of how much land it > takes to feed a human, or how little rather, human manure is not > enough to put back what a human takes out. It helps, but you just > don't get the biological knock-on effect you get with grazers like > cows (see earlier message about ley farming), or even pigs, they're > much better at it than we are. I tried every which way to get that to > figure out, but it doesn't figure out. I've used humanure from a very nice composting toilet designed at McGill university and improved in Australia and then again by us in Chile. I've put a lot of thought and experimentation (including leaf tissue, sap, and soil analysis) into whether or not you can farm sustainably without animals, using only humanure. The only way you could do it, as i see it, is to replace your animals with fungi. They could break down the cellulose and lignin in grain straws and help to provide the necessary return of nutrients to the soil. It would be a LOT of work on a farm scale. I think a small family might get by on it otherwise. But then fungi are mostly animals, aren't they? Worms make it all a lot easier, but then they are animals too, and they don't live very long, so it could be argued that you are factory farming in 'inhumane' conditions by housing them in your worm bin? > > Best wishes > > Keith > andres ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hello Dermot, Thanks for the kind and thoughtful reply. I have been a bit flippant in my response to you, because i have judged too hastily, as i now see by your words. I shall endeavor to answer your questions as honestly as possible. On Sunday, October 2, 2005, at 03:51 PM, dermot wrote: > Hi Andre, > > Is your trouble with ethics confined to the ethical treatment of > animals? No. I think that we are, as a whole, a very an-ethical species, and for us to apply ethics selectively, or to lay claim to ethical behavior, is something i see as hypocritical. > Presumably you want to be treated ethically by others. Yes, i'd like that, don't get much of it... > Why then > deny that right to another sentient creature just because they don't > happen to belong to your species? Because i don't always find killing unethical. Is it unethical for a jackal or cheetah to kill? Ok, maybe unfair since they are not omnivores. How about bears? Rats? > I also believe that you don't mean what you say. You do, for instance, > believe it is unethical to inflict unneccary pain on any being that is > capable of experiencing it. Yes, that's true. Why kill painfully when you can avoid it? > SENTIENCE: Having the power of self perception, that feels or is > capable > of feeling.(Oxford English Dictionary) > > What I mean by sentient creatures is creatures that are self aware, > they > can relate to others, act independently, experience joy or pain, are > capable of abstract thought, are capable of communication. Which covers most living beings. > Not all animals have the same degree of sentiency and therefore not all > animals should be treated the same. But where they have the same degree > of sentiency, for instance in the ability to feel pain, they should be > treated the same. Here's where i have trouble with ethics as defined by humans. Is it for us to decide who is or isn't sentient? Or who is capable or not of feeling pain? Remember for how many years it was thought that circumcision was ok, because newborn boys were unable to feel pain? > Plants do not exhibit any of the above features of sentiency and there > is no serious research suggesting that they do. All claims to the > contrary have been completely discredited. (Natural History, March 1974 > cited in Animal Liberation by Peter Singer) I say wait a while, we'll find they do. Science advances slowly, with many stumbles along the road, and many dead ends as well. >> So where do you draw the line? > Different people draw the line in different places. I draw the line at > having a central nervous system and possessing most of attributes of > sentiency described above. That's just about all of life. You are aware that plants communicate, are you not? For example, conifers in the pacific northwest alert others of insect attack, giving distant members of the tree community time to build up toxins to enable them to successfully repel the attack? > Do you kill roaches? Rats? Ants? >> Spiders? What about poisonous ones? How can one say a rat (definitely >> sentient and lots smarter than most farm animals) has less of a right >> to live than, say, a rabbit or a chicken? > They have much the same rights. But if a rat interferes with my right > to > live by trying to give me bubonic plague I kill it as mercifully as > possible. If the rat doesn't interfere with my rights I leave him > alone. > If a rabbit threathens my health by eating all my crops I kill him as > well. But only if completely necessary and as humanely as possible. You've just made my point. We as humans feel a 'right' to decide the appropriateness of killing. Once you are able to take that step, the line is drawn arbitrarily. I think the Janes in India are the only ones that draw the line at all animal life. >> How about a 15 year old cherry tree? Or a 50 year old Douglas Fir? >> >> All creatures eat other creatures, in one way or another. >> Think of the countless billions teeming in your compost pile. What >> about their rights? >> > Animals eat other animals because they have to to survive. I maintain > that humans do not need to. No, perhaps in a strict sense, they don't. But in a long-term ecological perspective they most certainly do. >> You are now able to choose to be a vegetarian. What >> would you do if you were hungry, or your children were, and all you >> could find to eat was an animal? >> > I would eat the animals. If I was hungry enough I would also eat human > animals no problem. But I would not do these things unless it were > completely necessary, which thankfully it isn't. I would also eat humans if given a chance. Long pig. Said to be delicious. I wonder if vegans taste better than meat eaters? >> Is hunger what you would consider a >> good reason? Or would you let your kids starve because animals have >> rights? Or if not, why do your kids have more rights than a bull calf? > They have more rights than a bull calf because they possess more > sent
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hello Dermot >Keith Addison wrote: > > >Hello Dermot > > > > > > > >>Many very extensive studies have been done on various vegetarian groups > >>such as Seven Day Adventists and some vegetarians claim that as these > >>people are healthier than average that it must be due to their > >>vegetarian diet. I don't subscribe to this view because these people > >>don't smoke or drink either. > >>What I do conclude from this however is that a vegetarian diet doesn't > >>do these people any harm. This is the important point to realise. > > > >One of them, and there are exceptions. > >I'm not quite sure what you mean here. It's only one of the important points to realise in connection with vegetarianism, and there are exceptions to that point. Not everybody thrives on a vegetarian diet. >Of course one can cite studies to > justify any case in the area of diet and health. Of course, as with all things. >We are still in the >dark ages as far as the "science" of nutrition and diet is concerned. >You can have two scientists who have received the same training who when >presented with the same evidence will come to diametrically opposite >conclusions. A bit like the dark art of economics! A bit like everything else too. This does not mean however that there's no way of sifting the wheat from the chaff (or the goats from the sheep perhaps). > >>It may be the case that some people cannot tolerate a vegetarian diet. I > >>don't know. My point is that IF we can tolerate this diet that we should > >>because it is unethical to kill sentient creatures for no good reason. But there IS good reason. > >>ANIMALS HAVE RIGHTS. That is not in question. >Just because they are dumb I don't agree that they are dumb. Quite a few of us have not been agreeing with that, didn't you notice? >doesn't mean we can > >>deprive them of a happy existance because they happen to taste nice. No, you didn't notice. :-( > >Some people really hate it (and hate me) when I say these things, but > >there is no sustainable way of raising plants without animals. There > >is no traditional farming system that doesn't used animals, and never > >has been. It just doesn't work - soil fertility sooner or later > >fails, and then everything else fails too. Likewise in nature mixed > >farming is the rule, plants are always found with animals. God can't > >do it, and neither can we. Sustainable farms are mixed, integrated > >farms. > > > > >Can't see any reason to hate somebody who expresses an opposing view. If that view happens even unwittingly to challenge certain cherished notions it can be perceived as an unprovoked personal attack and often responded to with a vicious personal "counter" attack, rather common, especially these days. >Everybody should be open to having their views challenged. Scepticism is >something we can't have enough of! I'm glad you raised this objection >to vegetarianism because it is the first time I have heard this >particular view. Well, it's not just a view, there's massive and incontrovertible evidence to support it. We've discussed it here before, as we would, since sustainable farming is obviously a part of sustainable energy - if you can't grow biofuels crops sustainably how can they be sustainable fuels? And it takes animals in the system, as food, not just as respected working labourers who go into retirement when they get too old to work. In fact many sustainable farmers treat their breeding animals like that, but not the offspring. >I don't know a lot about the detail of sustainable agriculture Then you're not in a position to make a case for vegetarianism, as you did. >but I am >aware of at least one farm here in Ireland that is run on a stockless >system that the owners claim is sustainable. Similarly there is a >organisation in the UK called the Vegan Organic Trust that certifies >farms as being vegan and sustainable. >In America there is a guy called Will Bonsall who has run the Khadighar >Farm near Farmington, Maine for the past 25 years, using veganic >methods, i.e. no animal inputs, for the past 20 years. I do know a lot about sustainable agriculture, in practice and in theory, and I've seen a lot of sustainable farms. I've seen a lot of farms too that claimed to be sustainable but they weren't. Yes, for 20 years and more. >Just suppose for the sake of argument that it is possible to have >sustainable agriculture without any animal input But it's not. >and further suppose >that it is possible to lead a healthy life on a vegetarian diet, would >you then consider it wrong to eat non-human animals? No I wouldn't consider it wrong. But it's much too broad a brush, it's all black and white in your book, it's unrealistic, and I think you're aiming at the wrong target anyway. Don't eat meat? Which particular meat shouldn't I eat? Should I eat a quail that I knew had come from a horrendously crowded and evil factory farm? No I shouldn't, but that won't help the quail, will it?
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hello again Dermot >Keith Addison wrote: > > >Hi Andres. Dermot > > > >>Hi Dermot, > >> > >>On Thursday, September 29, 2005, at 05:56 PM, dermot wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> > >>>It may be the case that some people cannot tolerate a vegetarian diet. > >>>I > >>>don't know. My point is that IF we can tolerate this diet that we > >>>should > >>>because it is unethical to kill sentient creatures for no good reason. > >>>ANIMALS HAVE RIGHTS. Just because they are dumb doesn't mean we can > >>>deprive them of a happy existance because they happen to taste nice. > >>> > >>> > >>I have trouble with this whole ethics thing. The Buddha said > >>(paraphrasing here) that all creatures love life, all creatures fear > >>death, knowing this, how can you cause harm. The trouble is, i think > >>that plants are sentient creatures as well. They are on a different > >>time-scale, mode, or wavelength if you will, but they definitely feel. > >> > >> > > > >I think so too. Plants do some downright weird things, you can > >explain it all away easily enough perhaps, but you're missing > >something if you do. > > > >I don't have any problems with people being vegetarians or whatever > >they want to be, but in my view what you call the "holier than thou" > >attitude that sometimes goes with it is baseless. The trouble is when > >people do it for their own emotional reasons, which is fair enough, > >but they try to pretend it's for logical reasons, and get very > >annoyed when the logic doesn't hold up. > > >People shouldn't make important decisions based on emotions, I agree. But that's not what I said, I said it's fair enough, it's their prerogative, just don't pretend it's anything else. If you say you don't like eating meat, or if you don't agree with killing animals so you don't eat meat, that's fine with me. But if you start promoting something or insisting that others follow your way then you should have a solid case for it, not just an emotional one. >The funny thing is when I make the case for vegetarianism based on logic >with my meat eating friends they accuse me of being relentlessly logical >when they begin to lose the argument. You just can't win. :-) Then they are not very educated about their meat-eating and your vegetarianism. The only real basis of the discussion is from the point of view of what's called the "soil community", an ecological unit, and in these terms vegetarianism is not sustainable. It has to accord with a sustainable food-production system, and it doesn't. So what are you basing it on? You are promoting it and you should have a solid case to present, but I fail to see it. I don't see much logic. Ethics? What are your ethics based on? Ethical realities are seldom in conflict with nature's ways. Neither need be as clear as daylight though, it's all too easy to get them both wrong, it takes work. That aside, I recommend you have a considerable browse round Sally Fallon's website, if you haven't done so already: http://www.westonaprice.org/ Best wishes Keith > >My previous partner Christine Thery (who did many of the > >illustrations at the JtF website) once got us into a furious row with > >a couple of veggies, just as the logic was failing, by saying: "In > >other words you eat vegetables because they don't scream and try to > >run away when you kill them." LOL! She had a point. > > > >>I think most gardeners have gotten a glimpse of that, perhaps when > >>uprooting a carrot, chopping down a tree that shades your tomatoes, or > >>clipping baby greens. > >> > >>Once you realized this, would you stop eating vegetables? > >> > >>So where do you draw the line? Do you kill roaches? Rats? Ants? > >>Spiders? What about poisonous ones? How can one say a rat (definitely > >>sentient and lots smarter than most farm animals) has less of a right > >>to live than, say, a rabbit or a chicken? > >> > >>How about a 15 year old cherry tree? Or a 50 year old Douglas Fir? > >> > >>All creatures eat other creatures, in one way or another. > >>Think of the countless billions teeming in your compost pile. What > >>about their rights? > >> > >> > > > >Inside a compost pile seems to me like a reasonable sort of place to > >end up when it's your turn to get eaten. You'll become billions of > >creatures, eventually just merging into the spirit of the local soil > >community. > > > > > > > >>You are now able to choose to be a vegetarian. What > >>would you do if you were hungry, or your children were, and all you > >>could find to eat was an animal? Is hunger what you would consider a > >>good reason? Or would you let your kids starve because animals have > >>rights? Or if not, why do your kids have more rights than a bull calf? > >> > >>Not trying to be a PITA, it's just that the issue is far more complex > >>than what you present. > >> > >> > > > >I very much agree. (As I may have said...) > > > >My friend Prema is a Tibetan nun, based at Daramsala in India with > >the Dalai Lama. I've quoted her before
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Keith Addison wrote: >Hi Andres. Dermot > > > >>Hi Dermot, >> >>On Thursday, September 29, 2005, at 05:56 PM, dermot wrote: >> >> >> >>> >>> >>>It may be the case that some people cannot tolerate a vegetarian diet. >>>I >>>don't know. My point is that IF we can tolerate this diet that we >>>should >>>because it is unethical to kill sentient creatures for no good reason. >>>ANIMALS HAVE RIGHTS. Just because they are dumb doesn't mean we can >>>deprive them of a happy existance because they happen to taste nice. >>> >>> >>I have trouble with this whole ethics thing. The Buddha said >>(paraphrasing here) that all creatures love life, all creatures fear >>death, knowing this, how can you cause harm. The trouble is, i think >>that plants are sentient creatures as well. They are on a different >>time-scale, mode, or wavelength if you will, but they definitely feel. >> >> > >I think so too. Plants do some downright weird things, you can >explain it all away easily enough perhaps, but you're missing >something if you do. > >I don't have any problems with people being vegetarians or whatever >they want to be, but in my view what you call the "holier than thou" >attitude that sometimes goes with it is baseless. The trouble is when >people do it for their own emotional reasons, which is fair enough, >but they try to pretend it's for logical reasons, and get very >annoyed when the logic doesn't hold up. > > People shouldn't make important decisions based on emotions, I agree. The funny thing is when I make the case for vegetarianism based on logic with my meat eating friends they accuse me of being relentlessly logical when they begin to lose the argument. You just can't win. :-) >My previous partner Christine Thery (who did many of the >illustrations at the JtF website) once got us into a furious row with >a couple of veggies, just as the logic was failing, by saying: "In >other words you eat vegetables because they don't scream and try to >run away when you kill them." LOL! She had a point. > > > >>I think most gardeners have gotten a glimpse of that, perhaps when >>uprooting a carrot, chopping down a tree that shades your tomatoes, or >>clipping baby greens. >> >>Once you realized this, would you stop eating vegetables? >> >>So where do you draw the line? Do you kill roaches? Rats? Ants? >>Spiders? What about poisonous ones? How can one say a rat (definitely >>sentient and lots smarter than most farm animals) has less of a right >>to live than, say, a rabbit or a chicken? >> >>How about a 15 year old cherry tree? Or a 50 year old Douglas Fir? >> >>All creatures eat other creatures, in one way or another. >>Think of the countless billions teeming in your compost pile. What >>about their rights? >> >> > >Inside a compost pile seems to me like a reasonable sort of place to >end up when it's your turn to get eaten. You'll become billions of >creatures, eventually just merging into the spirit of the local soil >community. > > > >>You are now able to choose to be a vegetarian. What >>would you do if you were hungry, or your children were, and all you >>could find to eat was an animal? Is hunger what you would consider a >>good reason? Or would you let your kids starve because animals have >>rights? Or if not, why do your kids have more rights than a bull calf? >> >>Not trying to be a PITA, it's just that the issue is far more complex >>than what you present. >> >> > >I very much agree. (As I may have said...) > >My friend Prema is a Tibetan nun, based at Daramsala in India with >the Dalai Lama. I've quoted her before here: "It's not often a person >gets the chance to live a human life, it's quite rare, one shouldn't >waste such an opportunity." Quite! > >She told me the Northern Buddhists are vegetarians but they don't >make rigid rules about it. They try to live without killing other >creatures, though they know it's impossible. She was very interested >to hear that plants eat other creatures, they send out root hairs >that capture and devour soil micro-organisms, even nematodes >sometimes. Plants eat meat. > >It's possible (quite easy!) to live in a relationship of positive >symbiosis with the rest of the creatures you're sharing your slice of >the biosphere with, in full respect for the rights of everything else >that's alive, while doing your share of necessary killing too. You >can always be adding more than you're substracting. > >Best wishes > >Keith > > > > >>andres (who, having been vegetarian, has also felt holier than thou) >> >> > > >___ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > __
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Andres Yver wrote: >Hi Dermot, > >On Thursday, September 29, 2005, at 05:56 PM, dermot wrote: > > > >> >> >>It may be the case that some people cannot tolerate a vegetarian diet. >>I >>don't know. My point is that IF we can tolerate this diet that we >>should >>because it is unethical to kill sentient creatures for no good reason. >>ANIMALS HAVE RIGHTS. Just because they are dumb doesn't mean we can >>deprive them of a happy existance because they happen to taste nice. >> >> > >I have trouble with this whole ethics thing. The Buddha said >(paraphrasing here) that all creatures love life, all creatures fear >death, knowing this, how can you cause harm. The trouble is, i think >that plants are sentient creatures as well. They are on a different >time-scale, mode, or wavelength if you will, but they definitely feel. > >I think most gardeners have gotten a glimpse of that, perhaps when >uprooting a carrot, chopping down a tree that shades your tomatoes, or >clipping baby greens. > >Once you realized this, would you stop eating vegetables? > > Hi Andre, Is your trouble with ethics confined to the ethical treatment of animals? Presumably you want to be treated ethically by others.Why then deny that right to another sentient creature just because they don't happen to belong to your species? I also believe that you don't mean what you say. You do, for instance, believe it is unethical to inflict unneccary pain on any being that is capable of experiencing it. SENTIENCE: Having the power of self perception, that feels or is capable of feeling.(Oxford English Dictionary) What I mean by sentient creatures is creatures that are self aware, they can relate to others, act independently, experience joy or pain, are capable of abstract thought, are capable of communication. Not all animals have the same degree of sentiency and therefore not all animals should be treated the same. But where they have the same degree of sentiency, for instance in the ability to feel pain, they should be treated the same. Plants do not exhibit any of the above features of sentiency and there is no serious research suggesting that they do. All claims to the contrary have been completely discredited. (Natural History, March 1974 cited in Animal Liberation by Peter Singer) >So where do you draw the line? Different people draw the line in different places. I draw the line at having a central nervous system and possessing most of attributes of sentiency described above. Do you kill roaches? Rats? Ants? >Spiders? What about poisonous ones? How can one say a rat (definitely >sentient and lots smarter than most farm animals) has less of a right >to live than, say, a rabbit or a chicken? They have much the same rights. But if a rat interferes with my right to live by trying to give me bubonic plague I kill it as mercifully as possible. If the rat doesn't interfere with my rights I leave him alone. If a rabbit threathens my health by eating all my crops I kill him as well. But only if completely necessary and as humanely as possible. > >How about a 15 year old cherry tree? Or a 50 year old Douglas Fir? > >All creatures eat other creatures, in one way or another. >Think of the countless billions teeming in your compost pile. What >about their rights? > Animals eat other animals because they have to to survive. I maintain that humans do not need to. > You are now able to choose to be a vegetarian. What >would you do if you were hungry, or your children were, and all you >could find to eat was an animal? > I would eat the animals. If I was hungry enough I would also eat human animals no problem. But I would not do these things unless it were completely necessary, which thankfully it isn't. >Is hunger what you would consider a >good reason? Or would you let your kids starve because animals have >rights? Or if not, why do your kids have more rights than a bull calf? They have more rights than a bull calf because they possess more sentiency (most of the time anyway). They are capable of abstract thought , they can plan for the future, they can experience more joy and live a much fuller life than a bull calf. > > I hope what I have said above will answer the points you have raised here. You are attributing views to me here which I do not in fact hold. Of course a healthy human life is more important than the life of a cockroach. There is no inconsistency here. The more sentient the creature the more rights accruing to it. But where beings have the same degree of sentiency they should be treated equally. The decision of whose life is more valuable should not be based on membership of a particular species. So a severely brain damaged person incapable of any feeling or awareness would not have the same right to life as a higher animal such as a healthy chimpanzee. >Not trying to be a PITA, it's just that the issue is far more complex >than what you present. > > That is certainly an understatement. These are extremely com
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Keith Addison wrote: >Hello Dermot > > > > > >>Many very extensive studies have been done on various vegetarian groups >>such as Seven Day Adventists and some vegetarians claim that as these >>people are healthier than average that it must be due to their >>vegetarian diet. I don't subscribe to this view because these people >>don't smoke or drink either. >>What I do conclude from this however is that a vegetarian diet doesn't >>do these people any harm. This is the important point to realise. >> >> > >One of them, and there are exceptions. I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Of course one can cite studies to justify any case in the area of diet and health. We are still in the dark ages as far as the "science" of nutrition and diet is concerned. You can have two scientists who have received the same training who when presented with the same evidence will come to diametrically opposite conclusions. A bit like the dark art of economics! > > > >>It may be the case that some people cannot tolerate a vegetarian diet. I >>don't know. My point is that IF we can tolerate this diet that we should >>because it is unethical to kill sentient creatures for no good reason. >>ANIMALS HAVE RIGHTS. Just because they are dumb doesn't mean we can >>deprive them of a happy existance because they happen to taste nice. >> >> > >Some people really hate it (and hate me) when I say these things, but >there is no sustainable way of raising plants without animals. There >is no traditional farming system that doesn't used animals, and never >has been. It just doesn't work - soil fertility sooner or later >fails, and then everything else fails too. Likewise in nature mixed >farming is the rule, plants are always found with animals. God can't >do it, and neither can we. Sustainable farms are mixed, integrated >farms. > > Can't see any reason to hate somebody who expresses an opposing view. Everybody should be open to having their views challenged. Scepticism is something we can't have enough of! I'm glad you raised this objection to vegetarianism because it is the first time I have heard this particular view. I don't know a lot about the detail of sustainable agriculture but I am aware of at least one farm here in Ireland that is run on a stockless system that the owners claim is sustainable. Similarly there is a organisation in the UK called the Vegan Organic Trust that certifies farms as being vegan and sustainable. In America there is a guy called Will Bonsall who has run the Khadighar Farm near Farmington, Maine for the past 25 years, using veganic methods, i.e. no animal inputs, for the past 20 years. Just suppose for the sake of argument that it is possible to have sustainable agriculture without any animal input and further suppose that it is possible to lead a healthy life on a vegetarian diet, would you then consider it wrong to eat non-human animals? >Mixed farming does NOT mean miles of monocrop grains on one side of >the fence and an intensive pig/chicken/turkey/beef "farm" (factory) >on the other, with its shit-lagoon. > >Farming with animals means one of two things: killing the inevitable >excess or competing with them as they eat you out of house and home. >Killing them and not eating them would not be sane, and criminally >wasteful. > > I don't actually have a problem with animals being used in agriculture. If they get reasonable care they can have a pretty decent existence and they can contribute to soil fertility. It's a win-win situation for everybody. I do have a problem with cutting short a sentient creature's life if it is unnecessary. I can't see how there needs to be an excess of animals that have to be killed if we have the technology to limit their breeding. If for some reason culling is required, I don't think that there would not be any ethical dilemma in eating their flesh. >Widespread vegetarianism would condemn more animals than mixed >farming ever could, and could easily condemn us all to the >consequences (the further consequences) of unbalanced farming >systems. > I would turn this argument on its head by saying that widespread meat eating would condemn us all to the consequences of unbalanced farming systems. Most people on this planet are vegetarian most of the time. If everybody was to eat a meat diet similar to the meat eating patterns in the West then everybody would starve. I know this is not what you advocate but it's worth bearing in mind all the same. > Even your healthy vegetables will not be very good for you >if they're not properly grown in fertile soils, which means that a >proportion of the "wastes" recycled back to the soil goes through the >gut of animals en route. Don't forget recycling food through our own guts. Human waste, with proper treatment should be used to fertilise soils instead of polluting the planet as at present. This would further cut down the need (if there is any) for animal manure. I think they are doing that very succe
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hello Keith, On Friday, September 30, 2005, at 04:48 PM, Keith Addison wrote: >> Heh! I Have only met one person that has ever defended chickens. > > :-) You just met another one. As in, not to be killed chickens. > >> Most >> people have absolutely no qualms about killing chicken. I used to >> dislike them because they were scary to me. Got a few talons in the >> neck and forearms as a boy whilst stealing eggs. Not enough distance >> between their eyes for a decent brain. > > I don't agree with that at all. I've yet to meet a dumb chicken, and > I've had to do with some bright ones, including currently. see below. > There's a > young cock here who understands quite a few English words, for > instance. There's no doubt about it, it's quite obvious. He has a > considerable vocabulary, some of it I can understand, or at least get > the gist of it. He makes some very wry comments! Very sharp. His old > man is more than sharp, he's *wise*. Dignified with it, and totally > without fear. I have great respect for him. Cocks have one of the higher testicle to body mass ratios. Remember Zorba? I believe that most animals can 'see' our mental images. It's very easy to get animals to do what you want them to if you construct a mental image of them doing it. For example, sometimes i'd like a cow to walk through a particular gap in some trees, but not another, more accessible path. Just concentrate on the image of her walking through the one i want. It's a combination of an image from her point of view, and an image of me watching her walk. It's worked with dogs, cats, cattle, pigs, and horses, as well as some small owls that hang out around the farm. I wanted them change their nest to a particular place, so they wouldn't be hurt when we disced a field (they're burrowing owls). Maybe this sounds very woo-woo as Bob would say. I say, just try it sometime, it works. Keep your brain very still, and just construct the image. > >> Fierce birds. > > Yes, but not only fierce. Tough, uncompromising society they live in. Not a rat race, a chicken run? :-) > >> Scaly feet. >> Propensity to crow at 4am. Sudden movements. > > They're *fast*! Instant reactions. I've watched them carefully with > this, as far as I can tell the response comes at the same instant as > the stimulus. Mirror mind, Zen chickens, LOL! Yes. rather like some of the things David Bohm or Karl Pribram were working on, implicate order, holonomic brain. Quantum chickens! > > It's hard to find a dumb animal, IMO, unless it's someone's pet. Look > at this crow in this BBC video clip: > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/video/38185000/rm/ > _38185047_crow_08aug_vi.ram Oh no, wasn't trying to suggest they were dumb, just that they scared me as a child because of the reduced distance between their eyes led me to fear the sort of brain they would have. Crows are known to be smarter than housecats, as are octopi! At least by our measures of intelligence. Now sheep and turkeys, on the other hand... > >> Dinosaur remnants. > > Yes. Clever trick, to grow feathers and a self-heating blood supply. Well, i've always thought dinosaurs were warm blooded, all along. And probably feathered as well. At least some of them. Or perhaps a hybrid system, like modern tunafish, with it's warm blooded muscles for speed of attack. > >> I >> wonder if humans have some sort of genetic memory of being preyed upon >> by sharp beaked scaly legged creatures when we were but little >> critters >> that scurried in the shadows. > > :-) Been reading Bruce Chatwin? No. Will have to look him up. One thing we've learned, the more we read, is that we've yet to formulate an original thought :-) Quite humbling. wind at your back, andres ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
> > And no, there is no intention in this post to troll for a debate on > > evolution vs. intelligent design.< > >If evolution and intelligent design work :-) You have to choose Chris, one or the other, this universe ain't big enough for the both of them. >how come they produced Homo >Sapiens. Too soon to tell? Best Keith > Chris ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
> And no, there is no intention in this post to troll for a debate on > evolution vs. intelligent design.< If evolution and intelligent design work how come they produced Homo Sapiens. Chris ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
>what viedo format is that in? RealPlayer. >It will not open for me, Dear oh dear, do you mean there are STILL people who don't use Macs, after 20 years? When will they ever learn? LOL! The video's at the top right. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2178920.stm BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Crows prove they are no birdbrains "Experiments show the humble bird is better than the chimp at toolmaking." They made this Mac here, assembled by chickens in a horrendous slave-labour factory somewhere near Chesapeake Bay, but it's a Mac nonetheless. (Those other things are made by monkeys, real dumb ones.) Best Keith >- Original Message - >From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: >Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 13:48 >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming > > > > > > It's hard to find a dumb animal, IMO, unless it's someone's pet. Look > > at this crow in this BBC video clip: > > > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/video/38185000/rm/_38185047_crow_08aug_vi.ram ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
what viedo format is that in? It will not open for me, - Original Message - From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 13:48 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming > > It's hard to find a dumb animal, IMO, unless it's someone's pet. Look > at this crow in this BBC video clip: > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/video/38185000/rm/_38185047_crow_08aug_vi.ram > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Yes, I can say I've looked them in the eye. Relish it? No. That was facetious. I said earlier I've pretty much given up eating most meat. The chickens I killed was because I wanted to eat them, and in those cases the chicken keepers thought it was fair for me to do my share. It was a lot of work. I never did get all the pin feathers off. If I had to do that every time I wanted chicken I would give up chicken - which I pretty much have anyway. I have a friend who raises Tamworths and sometimes gives me meat - I eat it, but usually as the base for stew. I don't think it is immoral to eat meat, but I think today's factory farming methods are inhumane, both for the animals and their slaughteres and I don't wish to support it. There was a time in my life I went hunting but that was a long time ago and I didn't really enjoy it. That said, I'd probably be more inclined to eat venison than 1.99 hamburger from Safeway. .02 worth Keith Addison wrote: >>Chickens. I can kill chickens. Bring 'em on. >> >> > >I'm wondering whether you ever looked one in the eye. Yes? How can >you relish killing anything that'll look you in the eye? > >Best > >Keith > > > > >>Andres Yver wrote: >> >> >> >>>Hi Dermot, >>> >>>On Thursday, September 29, 2005, at 05:56 PM, dermot wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> It may be the case that some people cannot tolerate a vegetarian diet. I don't know. My point is that IF we can tolerate this diet that we should because it is unethical to kill sentient creatures for no good reason. ANIMALS HAVE RIGHTS. Just because they are dumb doesn't mean we can deprive them of a happy existance because they happen to taste nice. >>>I have trouble with this whole ethics thing. The Buddha said >>>(paraphrasing here) that all creatures love life, all creatures fear >>>death, knowing this, how can you cause harm. The trouble is, i think >>>that plants are sentient creatures as well. They are on a different >>>time-scale, mode, or wavelength if you will, but they definitely feel. >>> >>>I think most gardeners have gotten a glimpse of that, perhaps when >>>uprooting a carrot, chopping down a tree that shades your tomatoes, or >>>clipping baby greens. >>> >>>Once you realized this, would you stop eating vegetables? >>> >>>So where do you draw the line? Do you kill roaches? Rats? Ants? >>>Spiders? What about poisonous ones? How can one say a rat (definitely >>>sentient and lots smarter than most farm animals) has less of a right >>>to live than, say, a rabbit or a chicken? >>> >>>How about a 15 year old cherry tree? Or a 50 year old Douglas Fir? >>> >>>All creatures eat other creatures, in one way or another. >>>Think of the countless billions teeming in your compost pile. What >>>about their rights? You are now able to choose to be a vegetarian. What >>>would you do if you were hungry, or your children were, and all you >>>could find to eat was an animal? Is hunger what you would consider a >>>good reason? Or would you let your kids starve because animals have >>>rights? Or if not, why do your kids have more rights than a bull calf? >>> >>>Not trying to be a PITA, it's just that the issue is far more complex >>>than what you present. >>> >>>andres (who, having been vegetarian, has also felt holier than thou) >>> >>> > > >___ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Great. Now I suppose everyone is going to start piling on me just because of that little "youthful indescretion" at University with The Young Cannibals Association. Keith Addison wrote: >Hi Andres. Dermot > > > >>Hi Dermot, >> >>On Thursday, September 29, 2005, at 05:56 PM, dermot wrote: >> >> >> >>> >>> >>>It may be the case that some people cannot tolerate a vegetarian diet. >>>I >>>don't know. My point is that IF we can tolerate this diet that we >>>should >>>because it is unethical to kill sentient creatures for no good reason. >>>ANIMALS HAVE RIGHTS. Just because they are dumb doesn't mean we can >>>deprive them of a happy existance because they happen to taste nice. >>> >>> >>I have trouble with this whole ethics thing. The Buddha said >>(paraphrasing here) that all creatures love life, all creatures fear >>death, knowing this, how can you cause harm. The trouble is, i think >>that plants are sentient creatures as well. They are on a different >>time-scale, mode, or wavelength if you will, but they definitely feel. >> >> > >I think so too. Plants do some downright weird things, you can >explain it all away easily enough perhaps, but you're missing >something if you do. > >I don't have any problems with people being vegetarians or whatever >they want to be, but in my view what you call the "holier than thou" >attitude that sometimes goes with it is baseless. The trouble is when >people do it for their own emotional reasons, which is fair enough, >but they try to pretend it's for logical reasons, and get very >annoyed when the logic doesn't hold up. > >My previous partner Christine Thery (who did many of the >illustrations at the JtF website) once got us into a furious row with >a couple of veggies, just as the logic was failing, by saying: "In >other words you eat vegetables because they don't scream and try to >run away when you kill them." LOL! She had a point. > > > >>I think most gardeners have gotten a glimpse of that, perhaps when >>uprooting a carrot, chopping down a tree that shades your tomatoes, or >>clipping baby greens. >> >>Once you realized this, would you stop eating vegetables? >> >>So where do you draw the line? Do you kill roaches? Rats? Ants? >>Spiders? What about poisonous ones? How can one say a rat (definitely >>sentient and lots smarter than most farm animals) has less of a right >>to live than, say, a rabbit or a chicken? >> >>How about a 15 year old cherry tree? Or a 50 year old Douglas Fir? >> >>All creatures eat other creatures, in one way or another. >>Think of the countless billions teeming in your compost pile. What >>about their rights? >> >> > >Inside a compost pile seems to me like a reasonable sort of place to >end up when it's your turn to get eaten. You'll become billions of >creatures, eventually just merging into the spirit of the local soil >community. > > > >>You are now able to choose to be a vegetarian. What >>would you do if you were hungry, or your children were, and all you >>could find to eat was an animal? Is hunger what you would consider a >>good reason? Or would you let your kids starve because animals have >>rights? Or if not, why do your kids have more rights than a bull calf? >> >>Not trying to be a PITA, it's just that the issue is far more complex >>than what you present. >> >> > >I very much agree. (As I may have said...) > >My friend Prema is a Tibetan nun, based at Daramsala in India with >the Dalai Lama. I've quoted her before here: "It's not often a person >gets the chance to live a human life, it's quite rare, one shouldn't >waste such an opportunity." Quite! > >She told me the Northern Buddhists are vegetarians but they don't >make rigid rules about it. They try to live without killing other >creatures, though they know it's impossible. She was very interested >to hear that plants eat other creatures, they send out root hairs >that capture and devour soil micro-organisms, even nematodes >sometimes. Plants eat meat. > >It's possible (quite easy!) to live in a relationship of positive >symbiosis with the rest of the creatures you're sharing your slice of >the biosphere with, in full respect for the rights of everything else >that's alive, while doing your share of necessary killing too. You >can always be adding more than you're substracting. > >Best wishes > >Keith > > > > >>andres (who, having been vegetarian, has also felt holier than thou) >> >> > > >___ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/l
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
>Hi Mike, >On Friday, September 30, 2005, at 02:53 PM, Mike Weaver wrote: > > > Chickens. I can kill chickens. Bring 'em on. > >Heh! I Have only met one person that has ever defended chickens. :-) You just met another one. >Most >people have absolutely no qualms about killing chicken. I used to >dislike them because they were scary to me. Got a few talons in the >neck and forearms as a boy whilst stealing eggs. Not enough distance >between their eyes for a decent brain. I don't agree with that at all. I've yet to meet a dumb chicken, and I've had to do with some bright ones, including currently. There's a young cock here who understands quite a few English words, for instance. There's no doubt about it, it's quite obvious. He has a considerable vocabulary, some of it I can understand, or at least get the gist of it. He makes some very wry comments! Very sharp. His old man is more than sharp, he's *wise*. Dignified with it, and totally without fear. I have great respect for him. >Fierce birds. Yes, but not only fierce. Tough, uncompromising society they live in. >Scaly feet. >Propensity to crow at 4am. Sudden movements. They're *fast*! Instant reactions. I've watched them carefully with this, as far as I can tell the response comes at the same instant as the stimulus. Mirror mind, Zen chickens, LOL! It's hard to find a dumb animal, IMO, unless it's someone's pet. Look at this crow in this BBC video clip: http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/video/38185000/rm/_38185047_crow_08aug_vi.ram >Dinosaur remnants. Yes. Clever trick, to grow feathers and a self-heating blood supply. >I >wonder if humans have some sort of genetic memory of being preyed upon >by sharp beaked scaly legged creatures when we were but little critters >that scurried in the shadows. :-) Been reading Bruce Chatwin? Best wishes Keith >And no, there is no intention in this post to troll for a debate on >evolution vs intelligent design... > >andres who finds chickens to be very useful on the farm though. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hi Andres. Dermot >Hi Dermot, > >On Thursday, September 29, 2005, at 05:56 PM, dermot wrote: > > > > > > > It may be the case that some people cannot tolerate a vegetarian diet. > > I > > don't know. My point is that IF we can tolerate this diet that we > > should > > because it is unethical to kill sentient creatures for no good reason. > > ANIMALS HAVE RIGHTS. Just because they are dumb doesn't mean we can > > deprive them of a happy existance because they happen to taste nice. > >I have trouble with this whole ethics thing. The Buddha said >(paraphrasing here) that all creatures love life, all creatures fear >death, knowing this, how can you cause harm. The trouble is, i think >that plants are sentient creatures as well. They are on a different >time-scale, mode, or wavelength if you will, but they definitely feel. I think so too. Plants do some downright weird things, you can explain it all away easily enough perhaps, but you're missing something if you do. I don't have any problems with people being vegetarians or whatever they want to be, but in my view what you call the "holier than thou" attitude that sometimes goes with it is baseless. The trouble is when people do it for their own emotional reasons, which is fair enough, but they try to pretend it's for logical reasons, and get very annoyed when the logic doesn't hold up. My previous partner Christine Thery (who did many of the illustrations at the JtF website) once got us into a furious row with a couple of veggies, just as the logic was failing, by saying: "In other words you eat vegetables because they don't scream and try to run away when you kill them." LOL! She had a point. >I think most gardeners have gotten a glimpse of that, perhaps when >uprooting a carrot, chopping down a tree that shades your tomatoes, or >clipping baby greens. > >Once you realized this, would you stop eating vegetables? > >So where do you draw the line? Do you kill roaches? Rats? Ants? >Spiders? What about poisonous ones? How can one say a rat (definitely >sentient and lots smarter than most farm animals) has less of a right >to live than, say, a rabbit or a chicken? > >How about a 15 year old cherry tree? Or a 50 year old Douglas Fir? > >All creatures eat other creatures, in one way or another. >Think of the countless billions teeming in your compost pile. What >about their rights? Inside a compost pile seems to me like a reasonable sort of place to end up when it's your turn to get eaten. You'll become billions of creatures, eventually just merging into the spirit of the local soil community. >You are now able to choose to be a vegetarian. What >would you do if you were hungry, or your children were, and all you >could find to eat was an animal? Is hunger what you would consider a >good reason? Or would you let your kids starve because animals have >rights? Or if not, why do your kids have more rights than a bull calf? > >Not trying to be a PITA, it's just that the issue is far more complex >than what you present. I very much agree. (As I may have said...) My friend Prema is a Tibetan nun, based at Daramsala in India with the Dalai Lama. I've quoted her before here: "It's not often a person gets the chance to live a human life, it's quite rare, one shouldn't waste such an opportunity." Quite! She told me the Northern Buddhists are vegetarians but they don't make rigid rules about it. They try to live without killing other creatures, though they know it's impossible. She was very interested to hear that plants eat other creatures, they send out root hairs that capture and devour soil micro-organisms, even nematodes sometimes. Plants eat meat. It's possible (quite easy!) to live in a relationship of positive symbiosis with the rest of the creatures you're sharing your slice of the biosphere with, in full respect for the rights of everything else that's alive, while doing your share of necessary killing too. You can always be adding more than you're substracting. Best wishes Keith >andres (who, having been vegetarian, has also felt holier than thou) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
>Chickens. I can kill chickens. Bring 'em on. I'm wondering whether you ever looked one in the eye. Yes? How can you relish killing anything that'll look you in the eye? Best Keith >Andres Yver wrote: > > >Hi Dermot, > > > >On Thursday, September 29, 2005, at 05:56 PM, dermot wrote: > > > > > > > >> > >> > >>It may be the case that some people cannot tolerate a vegetarian diet. > >>I > >>don't know. My point is that IF we can tolerate this diet that we > >>should > >>because it is unethical to kill sentient creatures for no good reason. > >>ANIMALS HAVE RIGHTS. Just because they are dumb doesn't mean we can > >>deprive them of a happy existance because they happen to taste nice. > >> > >> > > > >I have trouble with this whole ethics thing. The Buddha said > >(paraphrasing here) that all creatures love life, all creatures fear > >death, knowing this, how can you cause harm. The trouble is, i think > >that plants are sentient creatures as well. They are on a different > >time-scale, mode, or wavelength if you will, but they definitely feel. > > > >I think most gardeners have gotten a glimpse of that, perhaps when > >uprooting a carrot, chopping down a tree that shades your tomatoes, or > >clipping baby greens. > > > >Once you realized this, would you stop eating vegetables? > > > >So where do you draw the line? Do you kill roaches? Rats? Ants? > >Spiders? What about poisonous ones? How can one say a rat (definitely > >sentient and lots smarter than most farm animals) has less of a right > >to live than, say, a rabbit or a chicken? > > > >How about a 15 year old cherry tree? Or a 50 year old Douglas Fir? > > > >All creatures eat other creatures, in one way or another. > >Think of the countless billions teeming in your compost pile. What > >about their rights? You are now able to choose to be a vegetarian. What > >would you do if you were hungry, or your children were, and all you > >could find to eat was an animal? Is hunger what you would consider a > >good reason? Or would you let your kids starve because animals have > >rights? Or if not, why do your kids have more rights than a bull calf? > > > >Not trying to be a PITA, it's just that the issue is far more complex > >than what you present. > > > >andres (who, having been vegetarian, has also felt holier than thou) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hi Mike, On Friday, September 30, 2005, at 02:53 PM, Mike Weaver wrote: > Chickens. I can kill chickens. Bring 'em on. Heh! I Have only met one person that has ever defended chickens. Most people have absolutely no qualms about killing chicken. I used to dislike them because they were scary to me. Got a few talons in the neck and forearms as a boy whilst stealing eggs. Not enough distance between their eyes for a decent brain. Fierce birds. Scaly feet. Propensity to crow at 4am. Sudden movements. Dinosaur remnants. I wonder if humans have some sort of genetic memory of being preyed upon by sharp beaked scaly legged creatures when we were but little critters that scurried in the shadows. And no, there is no intention in this post to troll for a debate on evolution vs intelligent design... andres who finds chickens to be very useful on the farm though. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Chickens. I can kill chickens. Bring 'em on. Andres Yver wrote: >Hi Dermot, > >On Thursday, September 29, 2005, at 05:56 PM, dermot wrote: > > > >> >> >>It may be the case that some people cannot tolerate a vegetarian diet. >>I >>don't know. My point is that IF we can tolerate this diet that we >>should >>because it is unethical to kill sentient creatures for no good reason. >>ANIMALS HAVE RIGHTS. Just because they are dumb doesn't mean we can >>deprive them of a happy existance because they happen to taste nice. >> >> > >I have trouble with this whole ethics thing. The Buddha said >(paraphrasing here) that all creatures love life, all creatures fear >death, knowing this, how can you cause harm. The trouble is, i think >that plants are sentient creatures as well. They are on a different >time-scale, mode, or wavelength if you will, but they definitely feel. > >I think most gardeners have gotten a glimpse of that, perhaps when >uprooting a carrot, chopping down a tree that shades your tomatoes, or >clipping baby greens. > >Once you realized this, would you stop eating vegetables? > >So where do you draw the line? Do you kill roaches? Rats? Ants? >Spiders? What about poisonous ones? How can one say a rat (definitely >sentient and lots smarter than most farm animals) has less of a right >to live than, say, a rabbit or a chicken? > >How about a 15 year old cherry tree? Or a 50 year old Douglas Fir? > >All creatures eat other creatures, in one way or another. >Think of the countless billions teeming in your compost pile. What >about their rights? You are now able to choose to be a vegetarian. What >would you do if you were hungry, or your children were, and all you >could find to eat was an animal? Is hunger what you would consider a >good reason? Or would you let your kids starve because animals have >rights? Or if not, why do your kids have more rights than a bull calf? > >Not trying to be a PITA, it's just that the issue is far more complex >than what you present. > >andres (who, having been vegetarian, has also felt holier than thou) > > >___ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hi Dermot, On Thursday, September 29, 2005, at 05:56 PM, dermot wrote: > > > It may be the case that some people cannot tolerate a vegetarian diet. > I > don't know. My point is that IF we can tolerate this diet that we > should > because it is unethical to kill sentient creatures for no good reason. > ANIMALS HAVE RIGHTS. Just because they are dumb doesn't mean we can > deprive them of a happy existance because they happen to taste nice. I have trouble with this whole ethics thing. The Buddha said (paraphrasing here) that all creatures love life, all creatures fear death, knowing this, how can you cause harm. The trouble is, i think that plants are sentient creatures as well. They are on a different time-scale, mode, or wavelength if you will, but they definitely feel. I think most gardeners have gotten a glimpse of that, perhaps when uprooting a carrot, chopping down a tree that shades your tomatoes, or clipping baby greens. Once you realized this, would you stop eating vegetables? So where do you draw the line? Do you kill roaches? Rats? Ants? Spiders? What about poisonous ones? How can one say a rat (definitely sentient and lots smarter than most farm animals) has less of a right to live than, say, a rabbit or a chicken? How about a 15 year old cherry tree? Or a 50 year old Douglas Fir? All creatures eat other creatures, in one way or another. Think of the countless billions teeming in your compost pile. What about their rights? You are now able to choose to be a vegetarian. What would you do if you were hungry, or your children were, and all you could find to eat was an animal? Is hunger what you would consider a good reason? Or would you let your kids starve because animals have rights? Or if not, why do your kids have more rights than a bull calf? Not trying to be a PITA, it's just that the issue is far more complex than what you present. andres (who, having been vegetarian, has also felt holier than thou) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hello Dermot >Many very extensive studies have been done on various vegetarian groups >such as Seven Day Adventists and some vegetarians claim that as these >people are healthier than average that it must be due to their >vegetarian diet. I don't subscribe to this view because these people >don't smoke or drink either. >What I do conclude from this however is that a vegetarian diet doesn't >do these people any harm. This is the important point to realise. One of them, and there are exceptions. >It may be the case that some people cannot tolerate a vegetarian diet. I >don't know. My point is that IF we can tolerate this diet that we should >because it is unethical to kill sentient creatures for no good reason. >ANIMALS HAVE RIGHTS. Just because they are dumb doesn't mean we can >deprive them of a happy existance because they happen to taste nice. Some people really hate it (and hate me) when I say these things, but there is no sustainable way of raising plants without animals. There is no traditional farming system that doesn't used animals, and never has been. It just doesn't work - soil fertility sooner or later fails, and then everything else fails too. Likewise in nature mixed farming is the rule, plants are always found with animals. God can't do it, and neither can we. Sustainable farms are mixed, integrated farms. Mixed farming does NOT mean miles of monocrop grains on one side of the fence and an intensive pig/chicken/turkey/beef "farm" (factory) on the other, with its shit-lagoon. Farming with animals means one of two things: killing the inevitable excess or competing with them as they eat you out of house and home. Killing them and not eating them would not be sane, and criminally wasteful. Widespread vegetarianism would condemn more animals than mixed farming ever could, and could easily condemn us all to the consequences (the further consequences) of unbalanced farming systems. Even your healthy vegetables will not be very good for you if they're not properly grown in fertile soils, which means that a proportion of the "wastes" recycled back to the soil goes through the gut of animals en route. "Food is fabricated soil fertility." (Albrecht of Missouri) Best wishes Keith >Regards >Dermot Donnelly ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Garth & Kim Travis wrote: >Greetings, >I too kill my own animals, we put their names on the package of meat and >remember them when we eat them, giving thanks for their life >energies. Even the Dali Lama is only vegetarian half the time, as the >stress of traveling weakens him too much on a strict vegetarian diet. Many >of us get sick not eating meat. Now, I am not saying that I need a 16 >ounce steak for dinner every night, and I do not eat factory farmed meat, >cause that will make me sick, too. For some of us, we see the spiritual >connection between the animal and ourselves, when we eat it, and treat the >whole thing in a spiritual manner. > >I talk to my animals and thank them for their life energies before I kill >them. I wish them a longer and happier life in their next incarnation, and >they stay very calm, stand still and let me kill them. > >Chickens are the easiest animal to kill, rabbits the hardest, for me. > >Bright Blessings, >Kim > > Hi Kim, I don't think you are being quite fair in citing the example of the Dalai Lama as an example of vegetarianism "not working". "In the mid 1960s the Dalai Lama was in Kerala, Southern India, where a high proportion of the local population have always been vegetarian. Their tradition, as with other parts of India, is of lacto-vegetarianism, using a modest amount of milk products (but not eggs). Whilst there the Dalai Lama decided to become vegetarian but then proceeded to live on a bizarre diet consisting entirely of milk and nuts. If this is true, and it seems to be well documented, it would have been an extremely high fat and very unhealthy diet by any standards. After 18 months he became very ill and his doctors, unsurprisingly, blamed it on the lack of meat rather than advising a better balanced vegetarian diet. He was persuaded to return to meat-eating and has done so ever since." (International Vegetarian Union) If somebody does something irresponsible like that it is unfair to blame it on vegetarianism. It's like saying making biodiesel is extremely injurious to your health because some nut job blows himself up heating methanol in an open barrel with a blow torch! I have been vegetarian for the last six years and my wife for the last ten. We are both thankfully very healthy. Do I attribute this solely to vegetarianism? No. We both lead a pretty healthy lifestyle and no longer smoke. I don't claim that eating modest amounts of meat will kill you as some overly enthusiastic vegetarians do. Neither do I accept that eating a sensible vegetarian diet is unhealthy. I belong to a Food Co-op of about 1200 members of whom about one third are vegetarian. In a large close knit group like that one would hear if there were problems with a vegetarian diet. Problems can arise when people take up vegetarianism but don't do their homework properly. You have to learn about the various foods and make sure that you are getting all the proper vitamins. I was in the army until recently and got a very strict medical every year which include blood tests of every description checking for vitamin deficiencies. This is very important especially for teenagers. There is also a fair bit of confusion about what a vegetarian is. It can mean different things to different people. The dictionary definition is someone who will not eat food which had resulted in the death of an animal. People sometimes confuse it with veganism which is a much more exclusive diet as it does not allow any food derived from animals. This diet needs an awful lot more care especially with regard to vitamin B12. Many very extensive studies have been done on various vegetarian groups such as Seven Day Adventists and some vegetarians claim that as these people are healthier than average that it must be due to their vegetarian diet. I don't subscribe to this view because these people don't smoke or drink either. What I do conclude from this however is that a vegetarian diet doesn't do these people any harm. This is the important point to realise. It may be the case that some people cannot tolerate a vegetarian diet. I don't know. My point is that IF we can tolerate this diet that we should because it is unethical to kill sentient creatures for no good reason. ANIMALS HAVE RIGHTS. Just because they are dumb doesn't mean we can deprive them of a happy existance because they happen to taste nice. Regards Dermot Donnelly ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hello Doug, On 9/29/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Andres, it might be a good idea to inspect the livers of the rabbits youslaughter.Comfrey is supposed to contain "pyrolizidine (spelling?) alkaloids" which are said to be toxic to human livers. I don't know whether thealkaloids are broken down or whether it would be possible to ingest themfrom animals fed on comfrey.I've read that strains of comfrey vary widely in their content of the alkaloids. Supposedly the Bocking clones contain much less thanordinary seedlings.Doug WoodardSt. Catharines, Ontario, Canada Hmmm. The comfrey is just now staring to flower, no color yet, but in a few days we should hopefully be able to identify the strain, based on Newman Turner's descriptions. So far, none of the seeds from last year have germinated, but all root fragments have turned into big plants. If no good for direct feeding, i'm sure the compost pile will benefit, the quantities are overwhelming... thanks for the warning! Andres, loath to kill bunnies, so not a taste yet... ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Andres, it might be a good idea to inspect the livers of the rabbits you slaughter. Comfrey is supposed to contain "pyrolizidine (spelling?) alkaloids" which are said to be toxic to human livers. I don't know whether the alkaloids are broken down or whether it would be possible to ingest them from animals fed on comfrey. I've read that strains of comfrey vary widely in their content of the alkaloids. Supposedly the Bocking clones contain much less than ordinary seedlings. Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada On Tue, 27 Sep 2005, Andres Yver wrote: > Right now, we have an area that > is overrun with comfrey, which is here considered a noxious weed. > Following Newman Turner's lead (see JTF small farms library for his and > other invaluable books on farming the easy way), we have wilted it and > are feeding it to rabbits. They LOVE it!!! ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hi Kim, A Tibetan Rinpoche visiting Synergia Ranch in Santa Fe once, was told of a gopher infestation in the fruit orchard, and asked something about the morals of killing, since noisemakers had not worked. His reply: Rodent infestations must be dealt with. It was pretty clear he had no qualms about exterminating them. He also ate meat for the same reasons as the Dalai Lama. Yes, rabbits are really hard. So far, i've been copping out by giving them away. Just how, exactly, do you kill your steers? Thanks, Andres On 9/27/05, Garth & Kim Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Greetings,I too kill my own animals, we put their names on the package of meat andremember them when we eat them, giving thanks for their lifeenergies. Even the Dali Lama is only vegetarian half the time, as the stress of traveling weakens him too much on a strict vegetarian diet. Manyof us get sick not eating meat. Now, I am not saying that I need a 16ounce steak for dinner every night, and I do not eat factory farmed meat, cause that will make me sick, too. For some of us, we see the spiritualconnection between the animal and ourselves, when we eat it, and treat thewhole thing in a spiritual manner.I talk to my animals and thank them for their life energies before I kill them. I wish them a longer and happier life in their next incarnation, andthey stay very calm, stand still and let me kill them.Chickens are the easiest animal to kill, rabbits the hardest, for me. Bright Blessings,KimAt 03:15 PM 9/27/2005, you wrote:>On Tuesday, September 27, 2005, at 03:32 PM, Mike Weaver wrote:>> > I can't kill anything anymore, except chickens. I hate chickens. But I > > live live in the 'burbs so there are no chickens anyhow. My dad tells> > stories of his chilhood in Arkansas and pig killing, which they did> > from> > November - January. I'm pretty much a vegetarian anyhow these days. >>I feel that if i'm to eat meat, i should kill the animal myself. Keeps>everything in perspective. I bet that if everyone had to personally>kill up close and personal to eat, there would be a lot more >vegetarians (which i have been, on and off).>>andres>>>___>Biofuel mailing list> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Greetings, I too kill my own animals, we put their names on the package of meat and remember them when we eat them, giving thanks for their life energies. Even the Dali Lama is only vegetarian half the time, as the stress of traveling weakens him too much on a strict vegetarian diet. Many of us get sick not eating meat. Now, I am not saying that I need a 16 ounce steak for dinner every night, and I do not eat factory farmed meat, cause that will make me sick, too. For some of us, we see the spiritual connection between the animal and ourselves, when we eat it, and treat the whole thing in a spiritual manner. I talk to my animals and thank them for their life energies before I kill them. I wish them a longer and happier life in their next incarnation, and they stay very calm, stand still and let me kill them. Chickens are the easiest animal to kill, rabbits the hardest, for me. Bright Blessings, Kim At 03:15 PM 9/27/2005, you wrote: >On Tuesday, September 27, 2005, at 03:32 PM, Mike Weaver wrote: > > > I can't kill anything anymore, except chickens. I hate chickens. But I > > live live in the 'burbs so there are no chickens anyhow. My dad tells > > stories of his chilhood in Arkansas and pig killing, which they did > > from > > November - January. I'm pretty much a vegetarian anyhow these days. > >I feel that if i'm to eat meat, i should kill the animal myself. Keeps >everything in perspective. I bet that if everyone had to personally >kill up close and personal to eat, there would be a lot more >vegetarians (which i have been, on and off). > >andres > > >___ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Andres Yver wrote: >Perhaps the sockeye died after spawning? They do that. They don't spawn in the deep part of the river. They don't spawn in someone's man made cleaning basin. By the time they spawn, salmon are usually fairly beat up and starting to decay from the head back. (I've actually pulled a salmon in that kind of condition out of the Skeena River with my bare hands!) These were perfectly good fish, caught and left to rot because someone wanted to try for bigger specimens. Apparently, this kind of thing happens all the time. robert luis rabello "The Edge of Justice" Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hi Andres, Snip I've lived here since 1998. I've seen one fairly bad drought. The rest of the time the moisture is pretty much what I would expect. I've giving some thought about putting a cistern in to have a couple of months worth of water in storage. The groundwater here is real good once you get away from the coast. We had the Brits here about two years ago willing to make a survey of the all the available ground water. The Japanese were also here willing to survey the surface water. I am amazed by such altruism and from such unexpected sources, island nations. Hmm. I think the government folks smelled a rat and thanked them kindly but they'd rather do it themselves. My wife, a Uruguayan, completed the aquifer study last year and won a local award for it. Lots of GM soya in Argentina which is really shortsighted. I tell my students that Roundup resistant soy is like the discovery of crack cocaine. It's incredibly addictive, expensive and a rapid killer. On a slightly different topic, I think potassium chloride injected into an artery or vein messes up the body's electrolyte balance and stops the heart. If I'm not mistaken its what some states use in the U.S. for terminating murderers. If it works on humans it should work on pigs. It shouldn't effect the pig meat. Yes, I live in Montevideo. There's some interesting tax laws here that I'm finding out about as I continue doing my due diligence. I'll have to pay a payroll tax on a holding of more than 3 hectares. That's with or without someone actually on the payroll. I haven't figured out if a family of four can own a total of 12 hectares without paying the tax. Of course at 12 hectares, I'd probably need someone to help me as my children are only 2 and 5 years old. I'm not too worried about the government here. The Colorados and a number of the Blancos lost their 150 year monopoly after the last devaluation. It would be difficult to imagine the Frente Amplio's doing a worse job. The people basically lost 66% of of their buying power and their savings. The older folks got the screws turned on their retirement checks. My 83 year old father in law says he's never seen more poor women and children begging on street corners just to survive. There's way to many able bodied males on corners cleaning windshields. I no longer have much faith in the economic situation is the U.S. so I want to get my dollar savings into something real. It's hard for some of my friends to imagine that I want more work than I do now. But if you love what your doing it's not really work. It's just productive playtime. Tom Aceite de ricino. Same thing happened to me whilst pressing the seeds. Got over it though, pretty quick, when i realized the yield potential. Yes, Jojoba likes it dry and requires excellent drainage, otherwise it can be very susceptible to phytophtora spp. it is, however, an excellent oil crop. 50% oil by weight. Current yields in Chile are 3-4 tons seed per hectare from improved varieties. Potential exists from further selection to increase yields to around 5-6 tons in the next few years. that's about triple what most of the rest of the world is getting. We plant from stem cuttings of the best cultivars. In the American Southwest, they mostly plant from seed, which is very heterogenous and also about 50% males (no seeds), so yields are very low per hectare.Raspberries are a great fence and also a fantastic cash crop. Can't beat a fresh glass of raspberry juice from berries you've just picked.I think Uruguay will tend to dry up a bit and our area to get a bit wetter. Could be wrong though. Don't have a Hitachi supercomputer like in Tokyo to model weather. This year has been exceptional. Check your trends over the last 15 years or so.Northern Argentina has been in a drought for quite a while, and the humid pampa, where all that soy comes from has had some pretty dry, scary weather the last few years. Good thing most big farmers are going no till. Bad thing is they tend to use RoundUp tm to kill the cover crop, though that has started to drop in favor of rollers that crimp the crop to kill it and leave a nice surface mulch.How does potassium chloride kill? I've heard that a couple of tablespoons of salt NaCL will kill you.Have you bought your land yet? Uruguay is just about ideal for ley farming. I take it you're in Montevideo. Don't know much about the internal politics, but heard that the new president is a bit of a lefty as is Argentina's Kirchner, Chile's Lagos, Brazil's Lula, and Venezuela's Chavez. Lots more spending on education, health and the poor, more taxation of corporations. All these countries are doing way better than they have in a long time. Argentina is slowly but surely recovering from (among other ills) the IMF's 'restructuring' policy induced collapse a few years back.All the best,expat andres who has fond memories of life in an embassy school for a couple of years as a kid back in the middle 60's :-)
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hello Robert, On Tuesday, September 27, 2005, at 05:28 PM, robert luis rabello wrote: > Andres Yver wrote: > > >> I feel that if i'm to eat meat, i should kill the animal myself. Keeps >> everything in perspective. > > I do this with fish. Generally I don't eat meat, but once a year I > go to the river with my boys. We pull salmon out of the water, I > thank God for protecting each one of those creatures for my benefit, > then I kill them as quickly as possible. A few weeks ago, we saw that > someone had caught several good sized sockeye, then simply left them > to rot in the water. > > It made me sick! Yes, i also say a prayer to my deity of choice and, taking a cue from the aboriginal population of north america, have a bit of communion with the animal before killing it. They asked it's permission, i tend to thank him for giving me his life. Somehow thanking it is, to me, the same as thanking our common maker, call it God, Nature, whathave you. We both (idealized? native americans and i) use(d) every single bit of it. No waste. Perhaps the sockeye died after spawning? They do that. andres ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hi Tom, On Tuesday, September 27, 2005, at 02:53 PM, Tom Irwin wrote: > Hi Andres, > > Castor beans grow wild here in Uruguay as well. I have some deep > seated childhood memories of castor oil as an emetic. Just the smell > makes me gag. I'll use it with a mask if I can find no other source > but it is kind of a last resort material for me. The yields are good > though and it's essentially free for the taking. I was looking at > jojoba as a natural fence material but I think I'm a bit too wet here. > I suspect I'd have lots of fungus problems than in drier climates. I > may use raspberry or blackberries instead. The weather is is rather > mild. We actually had a light frost day this winter. The summer's > reach about 38 C. but you can expect rain in a day or so to bring > those temps back down to 28. It's mostly flat grassland here with > 38-78 cm of rainfall. This year we'll probably exceed the upper end. > I'm hoping global warming will keep it there but I'm not sure. Lot's > of people think it could shift to the dry end. I just haven't seen > much evidence in that direction. > > I keep telling everyone who will listen that oil prices are going to > change the nature of agriculture back to small organic farms. Now I'm > going to show them. I'm a bit squimish in killing animals, too. I was > raised as a city boy. I was giving thought to lethal injection with > potassium chloride solution. Pigs and humans have lots of > similarities. It's worth a question to the local vet. > > Tom Irwin Aceite de ricino. Same thing happened to me whilst pressing the seeds. Got over it though, pretty quick, when i realized the yield potential. Yes, Jojoba likes it dry and requires excellent drainage, otherwise it can be very susceptible to phytophtora spp. it is, however, an excellent oil crop. 50% oil by weight. Current yields in Chile are 3-4 tons seed per hectare from improved varieties. Potential exists from further selection to increase yields to around 5-6 tons in the next few years. that's about triple what most of the rest of the world is getting. We plant from stem cuttings of the best cultivars. In the American Southwest, they mostly plant from seed, which is very heterogenous and also about 50% males (no seeds), so yields are very low per hectare. Raspberries are a great fence and also a fantastic cash crop. Can't beat a fresh glass of raspberry juice from berries you've just picked. I think Uruguay will tend to dry up a bit and our area to get a bit wetter. Could be wrong though. Don't have a Hitachi supercomputer like in Tokyo to model weather. This year has been exceptional. Check your trends over the last 15 years or so. Northern Argentina has been in a drought for quite a while, and the humid pampa, where all that soy comes from has had some pretty dry, scary weather the last few years. Good thing most big farmers are going no till. Bad thing is they tend to use RoundUp tm to kill the cover crop, though that has started to drop in favor of rollers that crimp the crop to kill it and leave a nice surface mulch. How does potassium chloride kill? I've heard that a couple of tablespoons of salt NaCL will kill you. Have you bought your land yet? Uruguay is just about ideal for ley farming. I take it you're in Montevideo. Don't know much about the internal politics, but heard that the new president is a bit of a lefty as is Argentina's Kirchner, Chile's Lagos, Brazil's Lula, and Venezuela's Chavez. Lots more spending on education, health and the poor, more taxation of corporations. All these countries are doing way better than they have in a long time. Argentina is slowly but surely recovering from (among other ills) the IMF's 'restructuring' policy induced collapse a few years back. All the best, expat andres who has fond memories of life in an embassy school for a couple of years as a kid back in the middle 60's :-) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Andres Yver wrote: > I feel that if i'm to eat meat, i should kill the animal myself. Keeps > everything in perspective. I do this with fish. Generally I don't eat meat, but once a year I go to the river with my boys. We pull salmon out of the water, I thank God for protecting each one of those creatures for my benefit, then I kill them as quickly as possible. A few weeks ago, we saw that someone had caught several good sized sockeye, then simply left them to rot in the water. It made me sick! robert luis rabello "The Edge of Justice" Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hi Zeke, On Tuesday, September 27, 2005, at 03:13 PM, Zeke Yewdall wrote: > Why eat animals then? Eating meat is a rather inefficient method of > converting sunlight into food anyway. In a sustainble farm they are > necessary for fertilizer, and to convert low grade food stocks not > edible by humans into edible products, as well as to boost protein > input if you can't grow the protein rich vegetables, but how about > chickens for eggs, or goats or sheep for milk? > > It is interesting that we (americans at least) eat so much meat, much > of it produced in factory farms in truly horrible conditions, yet we > blanch at the idea of chopping the head off a chicken ourselves. Well, Dick and George had happy lives, all spent rooting up an old bermudagrass and clover pasture, lolling in the shade of a stand of poplar, and wallowing in their pond. They also tasted great, and fed 30 people. The main reason we keep animals is to fertilize the soil. Secondary are the reasons you mention, third, the pleasure of their company. I had a deeper relationship with them than i do with my chickens, so that's why it was hard. Killing chickens is easy: there's an old stump that has a noose connected to a foot pedal at the base. I take the chicken by the legs, slip the noose over his head, stretch him across the stump, step on the footpedal to tense and chop his head off with a hatchet. The dogs think it's great fun and snap up the head within a half second. No apparent suffering. Some flopping around from the body, helps to empty him of blood. I bet little dinosaurs were a lot like chicken. Goats are a PITA, and sheep are great. Still, same issues killing them than with killing the pigs... andres ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
On Tuesday, September 27, 2005, at 03:32 PM, Mike Weaver wrote: > I can't kill anything anymore, except chickens. I hate chickens. But I > live live in the 'burbs so there are no chickens anyhow. My dad tells > stories of his chilhood in Arkansas and pig killing, which they did > from > November - January. I'm pretty much a vegetarian anyhow these days. I feel that if i'm to eat meat, i should kill the animal myself. Keeps everything in perspective. I bet that if everyone had to personally kill up close and personal to eat, there would be a lot more vegetarians (which i have been, on and off). andres ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
John, Thank you for the information and link...what a super resource. Best to all. DB - Original Message - From: "John Hayes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 1:23 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming > David M. Brockes wrote: >> I keep getting people asking about the Energy required to produce >> Bio-Diesel, (or biofuel, Ethanol or Bio-Diesel); mainly thinking that it >> takes more energy to produce them than what you get in return or what it >> takes to make it. >> I know that with Ethanol the numbers indicate about 1.7-1 (or close to >> 2-1), but not sure what they are for Bio-Diesel. Can anyone help provide >> details or specific links to facts that will help set us all straight?? >> Thank youDave B. > > 3.2 units out for every unit in. > > http://www.nrel.gov/docs/legosti/fy98/24089.pdf (page 7) > > Google is your friend. Took me a whole 20 seconds to find that. > > jh > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
David M. Brockes wrote: > I keep getting people asking about the Energy required to produce > Bio-Diesel, (or biofuel, Ethanol or Bio-Diesel); mainly thinking that it > takes more energy to produce them than what you get in return or what it > takes to make it. > I know that with Ethanol the numbers indicate about 1.7-1 (or close to > 2-1), but not sure what they are for Bio-Diesel. Can anyone help provide > details or specific links to facts that will help set us all straight?? > Thank youDave B. 3.2 units out for every unit in. http://www.nrel.gov/docs/legosti/fy98/24089.pdf (page 7) Google is your friend. Took me a whole 20 seconds to find that. jh ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
I keep getting people asking about the Energy required to produce Bio-Diesel, (or biofuel, Ethanol or Bio-Diesel); mainly thinking that it takes more energy to produce them than what you get in return or what it takes to make it. I know that with Ethanol the numbers indicate about 1.7-1 (or close to 2-1), but not sure what they are for Bio-Diesel. Can anyone help provide details or specific links to facts that will help set us all straight?? Thank youDave B. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Tom IrwinSent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 10:54 AMTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming Hi Andres, Castor beans grow wild here in Uruguay as well. I have some deep seated childhood memories of castor oil as an emetic. Just the smell makes me gag. I'll use it with a mask if I can find no other source but it is kind of a last resort material for me. The yields are good though and it's essentially free for the taking. I was looking at jojoba as a natural fence material but I think I'm a bit too wet here. I suspect I'd have lots of fungus problems than in drier climates. I may use raspberry or blackberries instead. The weather is is rather mild. We actually had a light frost day this winter. The summer's reach about 38 C. but you can expect rain in a day or so to bring those temps back down to 28. It's mostly flat grassland here with 38-78 cm of rainfall. This year we'll probably exceed the upper end. I'm hoping global warming will keep it there but I'm not sure. Lot's of people think it could shift to the dry end. I just haven't seen much evidence in that direction. I keep telling everyone who will listen that oil prices are going to change the nature of agriculture back to small organic farms. Now I'm going to show them. I'm a bit squimish in killing animals, too. I was raised as a city boy. I was giving thought to lethal injection with potassium chloride solution. Pigs and humans have lots of similarities. It's worth a question to the local vet. Tom Irwin From: Andres Yver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 10:17:27 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farmingHello Tom,>> Hi Keith and all,>>>> You mentioned in a previous thread that you liked castor beans as an>> oil seed crop.You're in Uruguay, right? In Chile, castor bean is a serious weed. It grows extremely fast, reaching over two meters height and diameter within 8 months. If you have moisture, as near an irrigation canal, you can collect many hundreds of seeds, even perhaps a thousand or more from each plant. It thrives on no management or additional fertilization. Roadsides are a good place to find them. I considered them, together with jojoba, as an oil seed crop, before selling out and moving to Argentina. I crushed one, yes one, plant's worth in a primitive homemade press and got about a liter of oil. i haven't gone to purdue's newcrop site to see what average yields are. The area i was in was a mediterranean climate, 250mm annual rainfall, min temps down near the canal were around -2 or 3 C in the dead of winter. Summers got up to around 35C max. Bear in mind it was summer dry, winter wet. I think Uruguay, as is Argentina, tends to be more continental, ie summer wet and winter dry.I composted the seedcake and found you need to include lots of woody feedstock as well as cow manure (what was at hand) to avoid rancidity. In other words, don't try to compost it as a major component of your compost. If you heat your seeds first by spreading in the sun on top of shade cloth, you get higher yields.Sorry about the unscientific comments, your mileage may vary, etc. Weeds are an opportunity waiting to happen, they have lots of unexplored potential, on many levels. Right now, we have an area that is overrun with comfrey, which is here considered a noxious weed. Following Newman Turner's lead (see JTF small farms library for his and other invaluable books on farming the easy way), we have wilted it and are feeding it to rabbits. They LOVE it!!!Good luck with your future farm. Working for yourself can't be beat. Especially if what you are doing is not only pleasurable but gets other, local, people interested and heading down the path to sustainability. I've found that, here in South America -and probably everywhere, the best arguments for sustainability in general, and ley farming in particular, are economic ones. It's just way cheaper to fa
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
I can't kill anything anymore, except chickens. I hate chickens. But I live live in the 'burbs so there are no chickens anyhow. My dad tells stories of his chilhood in Arkansas and pig killing, which they did from November - January. I'm pretty much a vegetarian anyhow these days. Tom Irwin wrote: > Hi Andres, > > Castor beans grow wild here in Uruguay as well. I have some deep > seated childhood memories of castor oil as an emetic. Just the smell > makes me gag. I'll use it with a mask if I can find no other source > but it is kind of a last resort material for me. The yields are good > though and it's essentially free for the taking. I was looking at > jojoba as a natural fence material but I think I'm a bit too wet here. > I suspect I'd have lots of fungus problems than in drier climates. I > may use raspberry or blackberries instead. The weather is is rather > mild. We actually had a light frost day this winter. The summer's > reach about 38 C. but you can expect rain in a day or so to bring > those temps back down to 28. It's mostly flat grassland here with > 38-78 cm of rainfall. This year we'll probably exceed the upper end. > I'm hoping global warming will keep it there but I'm not sure. Lot's > of people think it could shift to the dry end. I just haven't seen > much evidence in that direction. > > I keep telling everyone who will listen that oil prices are going to > change the nature of agriculture back to small organic farms. Now I'm > going to show them. I'm a bit squimish in killing animals, too. I was > raised as a city boy. I was giving thought to lethal injection with > potassium chloride solution. Pigs and humans have lots of > similarities. It's worth a question to the local vet. > > Tom Irwin > > > ------------ > *From:* Andres Yver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > *Sent:* Tue, 27 Sep 2005 10:17:27 -0300 > *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley > farming > > Hello Tom, > > >> Hi Keith and all, > >> > >> You mentioned in a previous thread that you liked castor beans > as an > >> oil seed crop. > > You're in Uruguay, right? In Chile, castor bean is a serious weed. It > grows extremely fast, reaching over two meters height and diameter > within 8 months. If you have moisture, as near an irrigation > canal, you > can collect many hundreds of seeds, even perhaps a thousand or more > from each plant. It thrives on no management or additional > fertilization. Roadsides are a good place to find them. I considered > them, together with jojoba, as an oil seed crop, before selling > out and > moving to Argentina. I crushed one, yes one, plant's worth in a > primitive homemade press and got about a liter of oil. i haven't gone > to purdue's newcrop site to see what average yields are. The area > i was > in was a mediterranean climate, 250mm annual rainfall, min temps down > near the canal were around -2 or 3 C in the dead of winter. > Summers got > up to around 35C max. Bear in mind it was summer dry, winter wet. I > think Uruguay, as is Argentina, tends to be more continental, ie > summer > wet and winter dry. > > I composted the seedcake and found you need to include lots of woody > feedstock as well as cow manure (what was at hand) to avoid > rancidity. > In other words, don't try to compost it as a major component of your > compost. If you heat your seeds first by spreading in the sun on > top of > shade cloth, you get higher yields. > > Sorry about the unscientific comments, your mileage may vary, etc. > Weeds are an opportunity waiting to happen, they have lots of > unexplored potential, on many levels. Right now, we have an area that > is overrun with comfrey, which is here considered a noxious weed. > Following Newman Turner's lead (see JTF small farms library for > his and > other invaluable books on farming the easy way), we have wilted it > and > are feeding it to rabbits. They LOVE it!!! > > Good luck with your future farm. Working for yourself can't be beat. > Especially if what you are doing is not only pleasurable but gets > other, local, people interested and heading down the path to > sustainability. I've found that, here in South America -and probably > everywhere, the best arguments for sustainability in general, and
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hi Keith, Thanks for the information. Tom Irwin From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 01:26:58 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farmingsnip___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
> I'm a bit squimish in killing animals, too. I was raised as a city > boy. I was giving thought to lethal injection with potassium chloride > solution. Pigs and humans have lots of similarities. It's worth a question > to the local vet. Why eat animals then? Eating meat is a rather inefficient method of converting sunlight into food anyway. In a sustainble farm they are necessary for fertilizer, and to convert low grade food stocks not edible by humans into edible products, as well as to boost protein input if you can't grow the protein rich vegetables, but how about chickens for eggs, or goats or sheep for milk? It is interesting that we (americans at least) eat so much meat, much of it produced in factory farms in truly horrible conditions, yet we blanch at the idea of chopping the head off a chicken ourselves. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hi Andres, Castor beans grow wild here in Uruguay as well. I have some deep seated childhood memories of castor oil as an emetic. Just the smell makes me gag. I'll use it with a mask if I can find no other source but it is kind of a last resort material for me. The yields are good though and it's essentially free for the taking. I was looking at jojoba as a natural fence material but I think I'm a bit too wet here. I suspect I'd have lots of fungus problems than in drier climates. I may use raspberry or blackberries instead. The weather is is rather mild. We actually had a light frost day this winter. The summer's reach about 38 C. but you can expect rain in a day or so to bring those temps back down to 28. It's mostly flat grassland here with 38-78 cm of rainfall. This year we'll probably exceed the upper end. I'm hoping global warming will keep it there but I'm not sure. Lot's of people think it could shift to the dry end. I just haven't seen much evidence in that direction. I keep telling everyone who will listen that oil prices are going to change the nature of agriculture back to small organic farms. Now I'm going to show them. I'm a bit squimish in killing animals, too. I was raised as a city boy. I was giving thought to lethal injection with potassium chloride solution. Pigs and humans have lots of similarities. It's worth a question to the local vet. Tom Irwin From: Andres Yver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 10:17:27 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farmingHello Tom,>> Hi Keith and all, You mentioned in a previous thread that you liked castor beans as an>> oil seed crop.You're in Uruguay, right? In Chile, castor bean is a serious weed. It grows extremely fast, reaching over two meters height and diameter within 8 months. If you have moisture, as near an irrigation canal, you can collect many hundreds of seeds, even perhaps a thousand or more from each plant. It thrives on no management or additional fertilization. Roadsides are a good place to find them. I considered them, together with jojoba, as an oil seed crop, before selling out and moving to Argentina. I crushed one, yes one, plant's worth in a primitive homemade press and got about a liter of oil. i haven't gone to purdue's newcrop site to see what average yields are. The area i was in was a mediterranean climate, 250mm annual rainfall, min temps down near the canal were around -2 or 3 C in the dead of winter. Summers got up to around 35C max. Bear in mind it was summer dry, winter wet. I think Uruguay, as is Argentina, tends to be more continental, ie summer wet and winter dry.I composted the seedcake and found you need to include lots of woody feedstock as well as cow manure (what was at hand) to avoid rancidity. In other words, don't try to compost it as a major component of your compost. If you heat your seeds first by spreading in the sun on top of shade cloth, you get higher yields.Sorry about the unscientific comments, your mileage may vary, etc. Weeds are an opportunity waiting to happen, they have lots of unexplored potential, on many levels. Right now, we have an area that is overrun with comfrey, which is here considered a noxious weed. Following Newman Turner's lead (see JTF small farms library for his and other invaluable books on farming the easy way), we have wilted it and are feeding it to rabbits. They LOVE it!!!Good luck with your future farm. Working for yourself can't be beat. Especially if what you are doing is not only pleasurable but gets other, local, people interested and heading down the path to sustainability. I've found that, here in South America -and probably everywhere, the best arguments for sustainability in general, and ley farming in particular, are economic ones. It's just way cheaper to farm this way. Farmers of other stripes sit up and notice when you get successfully through a season without having used any inputs labelled Monsanto or Bayer or BASF...On a personal note, our winter rye (Korn to you in europe) is just starting to head, is close to 160cm tall, and has NO rust (puccinia) of any kind, nor any insect infestation. We're setting up an electric fence around those fields today, and tomorrow our neighbors horses and mules will be grazing it down prior to discing and seeding a summer ley.I can't stress overmuch how easy ley farming really is. Things just fall into place, and everything you do benefits something (or perhaps a few things, if you're paying attention) else, making the next steps even easier...What was not easy was killing Dick and George last week. Anybody have any tips for killing your animals in a way that sends them off to better pastures without fear? Dick got a 9mm round behind the ear, George a knife into the heart. Both ways were to me horrible. The uni kids didn't see that as we did it a couple of days before they got here. There has to be a better way. Succinyl choline was me
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hello Tom, >> Hi Keith and all, >> >> You mentioned in a previous thread that you liked castor beans as an >> oil seed crop. You're in Uruguay, right? In Chile, castor bean is a serious weed. It grows extremely fast, reaching over two meters height and diameter within 8 months. If you have moisture, as near an irrigation canal, you can collect many hundreds of seeds, even perhaps a thousand or more from each plant. It thrives on no management or additional fertilization. Roadsides are a good place to find them. I considered them, together with jojoba, as an oil seed crop, before selling out and moving to Argentina. I crushed one, yes one, plant's worth in a primitive homemade press and got about a liter of oil. i haven't gone to purdue's newcrop site to see what average yields are. The area i was in was a mediterranean climate, 250mm annual rainfall, min temps down near the canal were around -2 or 3 C in the dead of winter. Summers got up to around 35C max. Bear in mind it was summer dry, winter wet. I think Uruguay, as is Argentina, tends to be more continental, ie summer wet and winter dry. I composted the seedcake and found you need to include lots of woody feedstock as well as cow manure (what was at hand) to avoid rancidity. In other words, don't try to compost it as a major component of your compost. If you heat your seeds first by spreading in the sun on top of shade cloth, you get higher yields. Sorry about the unscientific comments, your mileage may vary, etc. Weeds are an opportunity waiting to happen, they have lots of unexplored potential, on many levels. Right now, we have an area that is overrun with comfrey, which is here considered a noxious weed. Following Newman Turner's lead (see JTF small farms library for his and other invaluable books on farming the easy way), we have wilted it and are feeding it to rabbits. They LOVE it!!! Good luck with your future farm. Working for yourself can't be beat. Especially if what you are doing is not only pleasurable but gets other, local, people interested and heading down the path to sustainability. I've found that, here in South America -and probably everywhere, the best arguments for sustainability in general, and ley farming in particular, are economic ones. It's just way cheaper to farm this way. Farmers of other stripes sit up and notice when you get successfully through a season without having used any inputs labelled Monsanto or Bayer or BASF... On a personal note, our winter rye (Korn to you in europe) is just starting to head, is close to 160cm tall, and has NO rust (puccinia) of any kind, nor any insect infestation. We're setting up an electric fence around those fields today, and tomorrow our neighbors horses and mules will be grazing it down prior to discing and seeding a summer ley. I can't stress overmuch how easy ley farming really is. Things just fall into place, and everything you do benefits something (or perhaps a few things, if you're paying attention) else, making the next steps even easier... What was not easy was killing Dick and George last week. Anybody have any tips for killing your animals in a way that sends them off to better pastures without fear? Dick got a 9mm round behind the ear, George a knife into the heart. Both ways were to me horrible. The uni kids didn't see that as we did it a couple of days before they got here. There has to be a better way. Succinyl choline was mentioned i think on this list? It's way too high tech, though. How about an injection of air into an artery like they do (used to do?) at the mortuary- or is that an urban legend? andres ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
Hi Tom >Hi Keith and all, > >You mentioned in a previous thread that you liked castor beans as an >oil seed crop. I said it has about the highest lubrication and it's an interesting biofuels crop. Interesting in India I think, and in Brazil. >That makes some sense given yields and iodine numbers but if one is >attempting an animal/oil seed mix then castor beans aren't edible >are they? "Castor Oil Pomace, the residue after crushing, is used as a high-nitrogen fertilizer. Although it is highly toxic due to the ricin, a method of detoxicating the meal has now been found, so that it can safely be fed to livestock." http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/duke_energy/Ricinus_communis.html Ricinus communis >Perhaps I read something wrong on JTF. I don't think it says anything about it at JtF, other than yield figures and a library piece about using it to dehydrate ethanol. >I was planning on planting rape seed and after harvest utilizing >pigs to clean up and fertilize the field. I was also hoping I could >feed the pigs the seed hulls after oil extraction. It leaves more than the hulls. >Is this a bad idea or are there better crops for this purpose? Probably, but I guess rapeseed would do. Best wishes Keith >Also for the pig folks out there, I don't have access to Tamworths >in Uruguay but I saw Durok Jersey's at the last rural. Seemed that >they had a decent coat and might survive in the field. Keep in mind >we are somewhat effected by that ozone hole stuff in the summer. > >Thanks, > >Tom Irwin ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming
the castor oil plant is toxic. its what Rican is made from. animals don't really like eating the plant either seed waste maybe ok, but this is what is made into a toxic nerve agent the yields in oil maybe ok, so long as its warm and wet gets lots of sun it grows fast. there where a number of plantations grown in Samoa in the early 1900's -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Tom IrwinSent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 7:44 AMTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming Hi Keith and all, You mentioned in a previous thread that you liked castor beans as an oil seed crop. That makes some sense given yields and iodine numbers but if one is attempting an animal/oil seed mix then castor beans aren't edible are they? Perhaps I read something wrong on JTF. I was planning on planting rape seed and after harvest utilizing pigs to clean up and fertilize the field. I was also hoping I could feed the pigs the seed hulls after oil extraction. Is this a bad idea or are there better crops for this purpose? Also for the pig folks out there, I don't have access to Tamworths in Uruguay but I saw Durok Jersey's at the last rural. Seemed that they had a decent coat and might survive in the field. Keep in mind we are somewhat effected by that ozone hole stuff in the summer. Thanks, Tom Irwin ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
