Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Good points E.Allen; I haven't seen that one. I'll have to look for it. Since you say Faye looked so gorgeous but I take it that was from a better time when actresses didn't have to get naked in order to elicit such a reaction. But then maybe there will be a remake with Halley Berry..? Ya neva know! Joe E. C. wrote: Hey Joe When's the last time you saw the movie "Chinatown" (Faye Dunaway was gorgeous)? point: been there, done that -- as with most corporatocracy scams -- but time's running out! If We The People don't get up on our hind legs and seriously do things to change to a sustainable lifestyle SOON (and the task is 'way too enormous to be entrusted to the elites), it isn't going to matter: Ma Nature will take care of it; she's the only one who has eternity as a time-frame! E. Allen Cartwright --- Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Andrew don't forget we are sitting on a virtual goldmine in terms of fresh water here in Canada. In many places in the USA I've heard they are already feeling the pinch for water and it is getting worse. I'm wondering if we could set something up where maybe we could use beavers as a slave labour force in the water trade. What do you say? Joe Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled "The dollars and sense of hybrids," appears in the Annual April Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now. Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the story, were compared to their conventionally powered counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during the first five years. full article http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Next Generation Grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/ Tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/ Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Hey Joe When's the last time you saw the movie Chinatown (Faye Dunaway was gorgeous)? point: been there, done that -- as with most corporatocracy scams -- but time's running out! If We The People don't get up on our hind legs and seriously do things to change to a sustainable lifestyle SOON (and the task is 'way too enormous to be entrusted to the elites), it isn't going to matter: Ma Nature will take care of it; she's the only one who has eternity as a time-frame! E. Allen Cartwright --- Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Andrew don't forget we are sitting on a virtual goldmine in terms of fresh water here in Canada. In many places in the USA I've heard they are already feeling the pinch for water and it is getting worse. I'm wondering if we could set something up where maybe we could use beavers as a slave labour force in the water trade. What do you say? Joe Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled The dollars and sense of hybrids, appears in the Annual April Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now. Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the story, were compared to their conventionally powered counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during the first five years. full article http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Next Generation Grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/ Tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/ Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Does anybody have any info on hydrid diesels in North America? My friend is interestd in the idea and would probably buy one, but we can't find anything on the market. Aren't passenger car diesel hybrids up and running in Europe? Kenji Fuse On Fri, 10 Mar 2006, MH wrote: I was listening to a radio program about Hybrid cars. The two state of WI dealerships mentioned dealership battery replacement costs were decreasing to US$3000 and they figured they might reach US$1500 as new models hit the road over the coming years. They talked about battery warranty and they figured they'd last 200,000 miles. I've had gasoline cars go 240,000 miles before rebuilding the engine, trany or differential exceeding the manufacture warranty. Something else they said about the Honda and Toyota were they could continue to run without the battery pack but with reduced fuel efficiency in the city. Resale value is still quite high for hybrids and diesels around my area although I'm having difficulty finding my older Geo Metro's but their around. I wouldn't mind a diesel or a E85 hybrid in a fuel efficient version for local use. I prefer my bicycle and limit my internal combustion use when needed. Thank you Mark. Enjoyed reading your thoughts. Thompson, Mark L. (PNB RD) wrote: I don't how anyone can justify a Hybrid over a diesel. The financial numbers just don't work. My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far) 45 mpg @ City Driving 55 mpg @ 60 mph 50 mpg @ 75 mph My cost is (City)$2.60/45 = 5.8 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) My cost is (Freeway) $2.60/55 = 4.7 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average5.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving) My neighbors Prius gets 55 mpg @ City Driving 51 mpg @ 60 mph Cost is (City)$2.35/60 = 3.9 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Cost is (Freeway) $2.35/51 = 4.6 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average4.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving) Plus Battery Deprecation 8 year/100k miles/$7000 $7000/100K = 7 cents/mile Total = 4.25 + 7.00 = 11.25 Cents/Miles Converted to French fuel prices and Taxes: http://www.day-tripper.net/pricespetrol.html Diesel = 1.036 euro/Liter Petro(95) = 1.209 euro/Liter Converted (1.19E/usd and 3.79 lt/gal) Diesel = 1.036 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $4.67/gal Petro = 1.209 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $5.45/gal My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far) 45 mpg @ City Driving 55 mpg @ 60 mph 50 mpg @ 75 mph My cost is (City)$4.67/45 = 10.4 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) My cost is (Freeway) $4.67/55 = 8.5 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average9.45 cents a mile (50/50 driving) My neighbors Prius gets 55 mpg @ City Driving 51 mpg @ 60 mph Cost is (City)$5.45/60 = 9.0 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Cost is (Freeway) $5.45/51 = 10.7 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average9.85 cents a mile (50/50 driving) Plus Battery Deprecation 8 year/100k miles/$7000/19%vat = $8330 $8330/100K = 8.3 cents/mile Total = 9.85 + 8.30 = 18.15 Cents/Miles In the US and Europe a diesel is about 1/2 the operating cost of a hybrid. Another thing to consider is maintenance/repair and life expectancy. My last VW diesel Died a honable death at 476,000 miles. My current one is at 243,000 miles and still running strong. My guess is if you can get 200K-250K out of a hybrid gas engine you are doing good. Also working on diesel is relatively straight forward. Will have to say VW has coupled the computer to the engine quite tightly. It make for interesting trouble shooting when things are not working perfectly. Mark Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
To my knowledge there are no hybrid diesels available in North America. Nor any announced for the 2007 model year (among 23 entries). This despite the fact that all the PNGV demonstration vehicles being diesel-electric hybrids. Car makers are generally convinced diesels are taboo in North America. Definitely a hard sell in California, the largest single market and leader on environmental automotive technology. I'm not following Europe as closely, but they don't seem as keen on hybrids in general, preferring efficient diesels (e.g., Smart, several VW models, etc.) I gather the Japanese are also passing on diesel hybrids, but are pursuing more aggressively-EV gasoline-electric hybrids. Alas, my electric-diesel hybrid is still awaiting a controller fix/upgrade before we can do some real-world energy-consumption testing to size the diesel gen-set. Darryl Kenji James Fuse wrote: Does anybody have any info on hydrid diesels in North America? My friend is interestd in the idea and would probably buy one, but we can't find anything on the market. Aren't passenger car diesel hybrids up and running in Europe? Kenji Fuse On Fri, 10 Mar 2006, MH wrote: I was listening to a radio program about Hybrid cars. The two state of WI dealerships mentioned dealership battery replacement costs were decreasing to US$3000 and they figured they might reach US$1500 as new models hit the road over the coming years. They talked about battery warranty and they figured they'd last 200,000 miles. I've had gasoline cars go 240,000 miles before rebuilding the engine, trany or differential exceeding the manufacture warranty. Something else they said about the Honda and Toyota were they could continue to run without the battery pack but with reduced fuel efficiency in the city. Resale value is still quite high for hybrids and diesels around my area although I'm having difficulty finding my older Geo Metro's but their around. I wouldn't mind a diesel or a E85 hybrid in a fuel efficient version for local use. I prefer my bicycle and limit my internal combustion use when needed. Thank you Mark. Enjoyed reading your thoughts. Thompson, Mark L. (PNB RD) wrote: I don't how anyone can justify a Hybrid over a diesel. The financial numbers just don't work. My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far) 45 mpg @ City Driving 55 mpg @ 60 mph 50 mpg @ 75 mph My cost is (City)$2.60/45 = 5.8 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) My cost is (Freeway) $2.60/55 = 4.7 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average5.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving) My neighbors Prius gets 55 mpg @ City Driving 51 mpg @ 60 mph Cost is (City)$2.35/60 = 3.9 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Cost is (Freeway) $2.35/51 = 4.6 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average4.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving) Plus Battery Deprecation 8 year/100k miles/$7000 $7000/100K = 7 cents/mile Total = 4.25 + 7.00 = 11.25 Cents/Miles Converted to French fuel prices and Taxes: http://www.day-tripper.net/pricespetrol.html Diesel = 1.036 euro/Liter Petro(95) = 1.209 euro/Liter Converted (1.19E/usd and 3.79 lt/gal) Diesel = 1.036 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $4.67/gal Petro = 1.209 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $5.45/gal My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far) 45 mpg @ City Driving 55 mpg @ 60 mph 50 mpg @ 75 mph My cost is (City)$4.67/45 = 10.4 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) My cost is (Freeway) $4.67/55 = 8.5 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average9.45 cents a mile (50/50 driving) My neighbors Prius gets 55 mpg @ City Driving 51 mpg @ 60 mph Cost is (City)$5.45/60 = 9.0 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Cost is (Freeway) $5.45/51 = 10.7 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average9.85 cents a mile (50/50 driving) Plus Battery Deprecation 8 year/100k miles/$7000/19%vat = $8330 $8330/100K = 8.3 cents/mile Total = 9.85 + 8.30 = 18.15 Cents/Miles In the US and Europe a diesel is about 1/2 the operating cost of a hybrid. Another thing to consider is maintenance/repair and life expectancy. My last VW diesel Died a honable death at 476,000 miles. My current one is at 243,000 miles and still running strong. My guess is if you can get 200K-250K out of a hybrid gas engine you are doing good. Also working on diesel is relatively straight forward. Will have to say VW has coupled the computer to the engine quite tightly. It make for interesting trouble shooting when things are not working perfectly. Mark Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/01/31/psa-peugeot-citroen-unveils-diesel-hybrid-technology/ Citroen is going to introduce a diesel hybrid that gets 70mpg or more. By 2010 perhaps, according to the article. On 3/11/06, Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To my knowledge there are no hybrid diesels available in North America. Nor any announced for the 2007 model year (among 23 entries). This despite the fact that all the PNGV demonstration vehicles being diesel-electric hybrids. Car makers are generally convinced diesels are taboo in North America. Definitely a hard sell in California, the largest single market and leader on environmental automotive technology. I'm not following Europe as closely, but they don't seem as keen on hybrids in general, preferring efficient diesels (e.g., Smart, several VW models, etc.) I gather the Japanese are also passing on diesel hybrids, but are pursuing more aggressively-EV gasoline-electric hybrids. Alas, my electric-diesel hybrid is still awaiting a controller fix/upgrade before we can do some real-world energy-consumption testing to size the diesel gen-set. Darryl Kenji James Fuse wrote: Does anybody have any info on hydrid diesels in North America? My friend is interestd in the idea and would probably buy one, but we can't find anything on the market. Aren't passenger car diesel hybrids up and running in Europe? Kenji Fuse On Fri, 10 Mar 2006, MH wrote: I was listening to a radio program about Hybrid cars. The two state of WI dealerships mentioned dealership battery replacement costs were decreasing to US$3000 and they figured they might reach US$1500 as new models hit the road over the coming years. They talked about battery warranty and they figured they'd last 200,000 miles. I've had gasoline cars go 240,000 miles before rebuilding the engine, trany or differential exceeding the manufacture warranty. Something else they said about the Honda and Toyota were they could continue to run without the battery pack but with reduced fuel efficiency in the city. Resale value is still quite high for hybrids and diesels around my area although I'm having difficulty finding my older Geo Metro's but their around. I wouldn't mind a diesel or a E85 hybrid in a fuel efficient version for local use. I prefer my bicycle and limit my internal combustion use when needed. Thank you Mark. Enjoyed reading your thoughts. Thompson, Mark L. (PNB RD) wrote: I don't how anyone can justify a Hybrid over a diesel. The financial numbers just don't work. My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far) 45 mpg @ City Driving 55 mpg @ 60 mph 50 mpg @ 75 mph My cost is (City)$2.60/45 = 5.8 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) My cost is (Freeway) $2.60/55 = 4.7 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average5.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving) My neighbors Prius gets 55 mpg @ City Driving 51 mpg @ 60 mph Cost is (City)$2.35/60 = 3.9 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Cost is (Freeway) $2.35/51 = 4.6 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average4.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving) Plus Battery Deprecation 8 year/100k miles/$7000 $7000/100K = 7 cents/mile Total = 4.25 + 7.00 = 11.25 Cents/Miles Converted to French fuel prices and Taxes: http://www.day-tripper.net/pricespetrol.html Diesel = 1.036 euro/Liter Petro(95) = 1.209 euro/Liter Converted (1.19E/usd and 3.79 lt/gal) Diesel = 1.036 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $4.67/gal Petro = 1.209 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $5.45/gal My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far) 45 mpg @ City Driving 55 mpg @ 60 mph 50 mpg @ 75 mph My cost is (City)$4.67/45 = 10.4 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) My cost is (Freeway) $4.67/55 = 8.5 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average9.45 cents a mile (50/50 driving) My neighbors Prius gets 55 mpg @ City Driving 51 mpg @ 60 mph Cost is (City)$5.45/60 = 9.0 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Cost is (Freeway) $5.45/51 = 10.7 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average9.85 cents a mile (50/50 driving) Plus Battery Deprecation 8 year/100k miles/$7000/19%vat = $8330 $8330/100K = 8.3 cents/mile Total = 9.85 + 8.30 = 18.15 Cents/Miles In the US and Europe a diesel is about 1/2 the operating cost of a hybrid. Another thing to consider is maintenance/repair and life expectancy. My last VW diesel Died a honable death at 476,000 miles. My current one is at 243,000 miles and still
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Hakan, The price depends on volume purchased and it doesn't make much sense. Distilled water costs 60 cents to 1.50 for a gallon depending on brand. 1/2 liter bottled water costs 1 dollar, but at the same store I can buy 1 gallon of the same brand for .80 cents. I just have to walk down the isle instead of grabing it at the checkout counter. Then you can buy filtered water for as cheap as 30 cents a gallon. At least that's the local grocery store here in Louisiana, USA So if you buy water by the 1/2 liter it is more expensive then gas, but gallon by gallon it's 1/3rd the price or cheaper. Logan Vilas Bio-Fuel Enterprises, Inc. - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency David, I do not understand why it is silly to want to know the facts about the following, Jeromie Reeves wrote: Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap fuel as I pay WAY more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water. Jeromie Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton I live in Europe and we pay WAY more for the fuel than bottled water. Hakan At 22:44 09/03/2006, you wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: That means that bottled water is more expensive than gasoline, as I understand, http://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htmhttp://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htm @ $1.453 per gallon. So, what was wrong with the original statement? Nothing as I understand it. This is just silly. People want to make a point that gasoline is cheap in the US so they come up with something that makes it sound cheaper than water. It's not enough that we're going to compare gasoline, an industrial fuel, to food quality water that's packaged for individual consumption. Now we're going to compare the industrial, bought in large dollar quantities, price of gasoline without any kind of road or sales tax to water packaged for individual consumption with any and all applicable taxes applied. If you really want to compare the price of gasoline to water, how about using the price of water from the water company? Oh, right, it's because they charge cents per cubic foot and all of a sudden our comparison looks silly. Gasoline IS cheap in the US. It's not highly taxed compared to the rest of the world, and it doesn't include any of the external costs which might double or triple the price. It doesn't include the costs of its use (global warming, pollution, health side-effects), the costs of it's production (pollution, economic and social policies), or its procurement (military intervention, social and economic policies). Rather than dredging up platitudes about it being cheaper than water which just IMHO make people look silly , could we please talk about its real costs? Thanks, --- David ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Hi All, The comparison is kind of ridiculous unless it rains gasolene or diesel in your neck of the woods. Tom From: Marty Phee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 18:21:46 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiencyIf you exclude state and fed taxes water is much more valuable than gas.I think gas is 2.39 around me today.Find a spring, put it into a fancy bottle and your rich.Hakan Falk wrote: That means that bottled water is more expensive than gasoline, as I understand, http://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htmhttp://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htm @ $1.453 per gallon. So, what was wrong with the original statement? Nothing as I understand it. Hakan At 21:25 09/03/2006, you wrote: Depends. Supermarket filtered by the gallon probably runs around $2/gallon. Name brand around $4/gallon to $20/gallon. Home delivered 5 gallon jugs ~$1.80/gallon Same company 24 .5L is $2.20/gallon Hakan Falk wrote: Question is how much does a gallon of bottled water cost in US? Hakan At 19:59 09/03/2006, you wrote: Here's a better one (more current and longer time range) ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid efficiency
First, it should be noted that, while relative costs can be informative, it is difficult to compare the cost of bottled water to gasoline, diesel, etc. What would the water cost if you brought a 20 gallon tank to the water plant and filled it? What would gasoline cost if sold in 1 liter or 4 liter containers off the shelf? Second: Hybrid automobiles do not necessarily tout to save money. It is a system that uses less fuel/mile. That's less pollution, CO2 etc. The overall cost to operate may be less, or more than conventional, but shouldn't matter. Those who can afford the up front costs should use the technology. (Give up their SUV for a hybrid?). In the long run, it is a valuable investment in our future. Oh yeah, by the way, You'll also run lower than average fuel costs in operation. I'm sure there is a pattern of use (long over road miles vs. short in-town commuting) that will obtain maximum efficiency, and can yield the user monetary benefit over conventional. Those outside the curve may not get the max benefit, but will benefit the world. Cost of battery maintenance/life is an unknown. A similar comparison is solar voltaic electric. Costs now run $25,000-$30,000 US to solar power a house. Depending on where you live the cost and % augmentation required will vary, obviously. Payback is probably 15-20 years. Again, at first more wealthy can afford the technology. But as more and more is purchased and manufactured the cost will come down, technology will improve, and by and by more will be able to afford - until we see micro generation occurring at most houses. Power plants will still be required to supplement, and for industry, but a large percent can be produced this way. Point is, that at first the cost is almost unreachable for most, but further use will bring it in for all, and for the betterment of the world. If as much money were subsidized into solar as they use for nuclear, coal (and the war) etc it wouldn't be too long before we all had collectors on our houses. Hakan, The price depends on volume purchased and it doesn't make much sense. Distilled water costs 60 cents to 1.50 for a gallon depending on brand. 1/2 liter bottled water costs 1 dollar, but at the same store I can buy 1 gallon of the same brand for .80 cents. I just have to walk down the isle instead of grabing it at the checkout counter. Then you can buy filtered water for as cheap as 30 cents a gallon. At least that's the local grocery store here in Louisiana, USA So if you buy water by the 1/2 liter it is more expensive then gas, but gallon by gallon it's 1/3rd the price or cheaper. Logan Vilas Bio-Fuel Enterprises, Inc. - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency David, I do not understand why it is silly to want to know the facts about the following, Jeromie Reeves wrote: Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap fuel as I pay WAY more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water. Jeromie Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton I live in Europe and we pay WAY more for the fuel than bottled water. Hakan At 22:44 09/03/2006, you wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: That means that bottled water is more expensive than gasoline, as I understand, http://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htmhttp://www.bairdpet ro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htm @ $1.453 per gallon. So, what was wrong with the original statement? Nothing as I understand it. This is just silly. People want to make a point that gasoline is cheap in the US so they come up with something that makes it sound cheaper than water. It's not enough that we're going to compare gasoline, an industrial fuel, to food quality water that's packaged for individual consumption. Now we're going to compare the industrial, bought in large dollar quantities, price of gasoline without any kind of road or sales tax to water packaged for individual consumption with any and all applicable taxes applied. If you really want to compare the price of gasoline to water, how about using the price of water from the water company? Oh, right, it's because they charge cents per cubic foot and all of a sudden our comparison looks silly. Gasoline IS cheap in the US. It's not highly taxed compared to the rest of the world, and it doesn't include any of the external costs which might double or triple the price. It doesn't include the costs of its use (global warming, pollution, health side-effects), the costs of it's production (pollution, economic and social policies), or its procurement (military intervention, social and economic policies). Rather than
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
I was listening to a radio program about Hybrid cars. The two state of WI dealerships mentioned dealership battery replacement costs were decreasing to US$3000 and they figured they might reach US$1500 as new models hit the road over the coming years. They talked about battery warranty and they figured they'd last 200,000 miles. I've had gasoline cars go 240,000 miles before rebuilding the engine, trany or differential exceeding the manufacture warranty. Something else they said about the Honda and Toyota were they could continue to run without the battery pack but with reduced fuel efficiency in the city. Resale value is still quite high for hybrids and diesels around my area although I'm having difficulty finding my older Geo Metro's but their around. I wouldn't mind a diesel or a E85 hybrid in a fuel efficient version for local use. I prefer my bicycle and limit my internal combustion use when needed. Thank you Mark. Enjoyed reading your thoughts. Thompson, Mark L. (PNB RD) wrote: I don't how anyone can justify a Hybrid over a diesel. The financial numbers just don't work. My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far) 45 mpg @ City Driving 55 mpg @ 60 mph 50 mpg @ 75 mph My cost is (City)$2.60/45 = 5.8 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) My cost is (Freeway) $2.60/55 = 4.7 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average5.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving) My neighbors Prius gets 55 mpg @ City Driving 51 mpg @ 60 mph Cost is (City)$2.35/60 = 3.9 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Cost is (Freeway) $2.35/51 = 4.6 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average4.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving) Plus Battery Deprecation 8 year/100k miles/$7000 $7000/100K = 7 cents/mile Total = 4.25 + 7.00 = 11.25 Cents/Miles Converted to French fuel prices and Taxes: http://www.day-tripper.net/pricespetrol.html Diesel = 1.036 euro/Liter Petro(95) = 1.209 euro/Liter Converted (1.19E/usd and 3.79 lt/gal) Diesel = 1.036 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $4.67/gal Petro = 1.209 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $5.45/gal My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far) 45 mpg @ City Driving 55 mpg @ 60 mph 50 mpg @ 75 mph My cost is (City)$4.67/45 = 10.4 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) My cost is (Freeway) $4.67/55 = 8.5 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average9.45 cents a mile (50/50 driving) My neighbors Prius gets 55 mpg @ City Driving 51 mpg @ 60 mph Cost is (City)$5.45/60 = 9.0 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Cost is (Freeway) $5.45/51 = 10.7 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average9.85 cents a mile (50/50 driving) Plus Battery Deprecation 8 year/100k miles/$7000/19%vat = $8330 $8330/100K = 8.3 cents/mile Total = 9.85 + 8.30 = 18.15 Cents/Miles In the US and Europe a diesel is about 1/2 the operating cost of a hybrid. Another thing to consider is maintenance/repair and life expectancy. My last VW diesel Died a honable death at 476,000 miles. My current one is at 243,000 miles and still running strong. My guess is if you can get 200K-250K out of a hybrid gas engine you are doing good. Also working on diesel is relatively straight forward. Will have to say VW has coupled the computer to the engine quite tightly. It make for interesting trouble shooting when things are not working perfectly. Mark Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled The dollars and sense of hybrids, appears in the Annual April Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now. Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the story, were compared to their conventionally powered counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during the first five years. full article http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Next Generation Grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/ Tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/ Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Or for that matter, an off-peak plug-in hybrid.On 3/9/06, Andrew Netherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investmentif they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America.Andrew NethertonOn 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysisin a story that examines the ownership costs and financial benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled The dollars and sense of hybrids, appears in the Annual AprilAuto issue of CR, on newsstands now. Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involvingthe depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the story, were compared to their conventionally poweredcounterparts. The error led the publication to overstate how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners duringthe first five years. full article http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Get your daily alternative energy newsAlternate Energy Resource Network1000+ news sources-resourcesupdated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Next Generation Grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/ Tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/ Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/-- Thanks,PCHe's the kind of a guy who lights up a room just by flicking a switch You can't have everything. Where would you put it? - Steven Wright ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap fuel as I pay WAY more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water. Jeromie Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled The dollars and sense of hybrids, appears in the Annual April Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now. Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the story, were compared to their conventionally powered counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during the first five years. full article http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Next Generation Grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/ Tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/ Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Take a trip to England or anywhere in Europe and don't forget to rent a car while you are there. When you get back tell us how it went! LOL Joe Jeromie Reeves wrote: Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap fuel as I pay WAY more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water. Jeromie Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled "The dollars and sense of hybrids," appears in the Annual April Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now. Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the story, were compared to their conventionally powered counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during the first five years. full article http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Next Generation Grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/ Tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/ Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Jeromie Reeves wrote: Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap fuel as I pay WAY more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water. Jeromie Would depend on your bottled water. retail bottled water usually runs in excess of $1 per litre. retail gasoline is far shy of that. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Here's a link I just found on Google for example http://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htm J Jeromie Reeves wrote: Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap fuel as I pay WAY more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water. Jeromie Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled "The dollars and sense of hybrids," appears in the Annual April Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now. Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the story, were compared to their conventionally powered counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during the first five years. full article http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Next Generation Grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/ Tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/ Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Hey Andrew don't forget we are sitting on a virtual goldmine in terms of fresh water here in Canada. In many places in the USA I've heard they are already feeling the pinch for water and it is getting worse. I'm wondering if we could set something up where maybe we could use beavers as a slave labour force in the water trade. What do you say? Joe Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled "The dollars and sense of hybrids," appears in the Annual April Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now. Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the story, were compared to their conventionally powered counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during the first five years. full article http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Next Generation Grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/ Tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/ Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Here's a better one (more current and longer time range) http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/gas1.html Joe Jeromie Reeves wrote: Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap fuel as I pay WAY more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water. Jeromie Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled "The dollars and sense of hybrids," appears in the Annual April Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now. Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the story, were compared to their conventionally powered counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during the first five years. full article http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Next Generation Grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/ Tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/ Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Question is how much does a gallon of bottled water cost in US? Hakan At 19:59 09/03/2006, you wrote: Here's a better one (more current and longer time range) http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/gas1.htmlhttp://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/gas1.html Joe Jeromie Reeves wrote: Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap fuel as I pay WAY more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water. Jeromie Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled The dollars and sense of hybrids, appears in the Annual April Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now. Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the story, were compared to their conventionally powered counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during the first five years. full article http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Hi: I pay 1.18 US per liter of a 90 RON gas for my car in Peru!! Oscar Orbegoso Montalva Jefe del Centro de Servicios Económicos de Tarapoto Proyecto PRA Teléfono fijo 042 522633 / 528244 Teléfono celular 042 9695265 http://www.proyectopra.com -Mensaje original- De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] En nombre de Chip Mefford Enviado el: Jueves, 09 de Marzo de 2006 01:54 p.m. Para: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Asunto: Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency Jeromie Reeves wrote: Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap fuel as I pay WAY more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water. Jeromie Would depend on your bottled water. retail bottled water usually runs in excess of $1 per litre. retail gasoline is far shy of that. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
I don't how anyone can justify a Hybrid over a diesel. The financial numbers just don't work. My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far) 45 mpg @ City Driving 55 mpg @ 60 mph 50 mpg @ 75 mph My cost is (City)$2.60/45 = 5.8 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) My cost is (Freeway) $2.60/55 = 4.7 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average5.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving) My neighbors Prius gets 55 mpg @ City Driving 51 mpg @ 60 mph Cost is (City)$2.35/60 = 3.9 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Cost is (Freeway) $2.35/51 = 4.6 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average4.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving) Plus Battery Deprecation 8 year/100k miles/$7000 $7000/100K = 7 cents/mile Total = 4.25 + 7.00 = 11.25 Cents/Miles Converted to French fuel prices and Taxes: http://www.day-tripper.net/pricespetrol.html Diesel = 1.036 euro/Liter Petro(95) = 1.209 euro/Liter Converted (1.19E/usd and 3.79 lt/gal) Diesel = 1.036 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $4.67/gal Petro = 1.209 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $5.45/gal My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far) 45 mpg @ City Driving 55 mpg @ 60 mph 50 mpg @ 75 mph My cost is (City)$4.67/45 = 10.4 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) My cost is (Freeway) $4.67/55 = 8.5 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average9.45 cents a mile (50/50 driving) My neighbors Prius gets 55 mpg @ City Driving 51 mpg @ 60 mph Cost is (City)$5.45/60 = 9.0 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Cost is (Freeway) $5.45/51 = 10.7 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average9.85 cents a mile (50/50 driving) Plus Battery Deprecation 8 year/100k miles/$7000/19%vat = $8330 $8330/100K = 8.3 cents/mile Total = 9.85 + 8.30 = 18.15 Cents/Miles In the US and Europe a diesel is about 1/2 the operating cost of a hybrid. Another thing to consider is maintenance/repair and life expectancy. My last VW diesel Died a honable death at 476,000 miles. My current one is at 243,000 miles and still running strong. My guess is if you can get 200K-250K out of a hybrid gas engine you are doing good. Also working on diesel is relatively straight forward. Will have to say VW has coupled the computer to the engine quite tightly. It make for interesting trouble shooting when things are not working perfectly. Mark Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
particulate emissions? Thompson, Mark L. (PNB RD) wrote: I don't how anyone can justify a Hybrid over a diesel. The financial numbers just don't work. My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far) 45 mpg @ City Driving 55 mpg @ 60 mph 50 mpg @ 75 mph My cost is (City)$2.60/45 = 5.8 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) My cost is (Freeway) $2.60/55 = 4.7 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average5.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving) My neighbors Prius gets 55 mpg @ City Driving 51 mpg @ 60 mph Cost is (City)$2.35/60 = 3.9 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Cost is (Freeway) $2.35/51 = 4.6 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average4.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving) Plus Battery Deprecation 8 year/100k miles/$7000 $7000/100K = 7 cents/mile Total = 4.25 + 7.00 = 11.25 Cents/Miles Converted to French fuel prices and Taxes: http://www.day-tripper.net/pricespetrol.html Diesel= 1.036 euro/Liter Petro(95) = 1.209 euro/Liter Converted (1.19E/usd and 3.79 lt/gal) Diesel = 1.036 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $4.67/gal Petro = 1.209 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $5.45/gal My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far) 45 mpg @ City Driving 55 mpg @ 60 mph 50 mpg @ 75 mph My cost is (City)$4.67/45 = 10.4 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) My cost is (Freeway) $4.67/55 = 8.5 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average9.45 cents a mile (50/50 driving) My neighbors Prius gets 55 mpg @ City Driving 51 mpg @ 60 mph Cost is (City)$5.45/60 = 9.0 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Cost is (Freeway) $5.45/51 = 10.7 cents a mile (not including normal maintenance) Average9.85 cents a mile (50/50 driving) Plus Battery Deprecation 8 year/100k miles/$7000/19%vat = $8330 $8330/100K = 8.3 cents/mile Total = 9.85 + 8.30 = 18.15 Cents/Miles In the US and Europe a diesel is about 1/2 the operating cost of a hybrid. Another thing to consider is maintenance/repair and life expectancy. My last VW diesel Died a honable death at 476,000 miles. My current one is at 243,000 miles and still running strong. My guess is if you can get 200K-250K out of a hybrid gas engine you are doing good. Also working on diesel is relatively straight forward. Will have to say VW has coupled the computer to the engine quite tightly. It make for interesting trouble shooting when things are not working perfectly. Mark Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
bob allen wrote: particulate emissions? That's a good question. How do the modern, common rail direct injection diesel engines fare in terms of their particulate emissions? Does anyone know? robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Depends. Supermarket filtered by the gallon probably runs around $2/gallon. Name brand around $4/gallon to $20/gallon. Home delivered 5 gallon jugs ~$1.80/gallon Same company 24 .5L is $2.20/gallon Hakan Falk wrote: Question is how much does a gallon of bottled water cost in US? Hakan At 19:59 09/03/2006, you wrote: Here's a better one (more current and longer time range) http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/gas1.htmlhttp://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/gas1.html Joe Jeromie Reeves wrote: Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap fuel as I pay WAY more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water. Jeromie Andrew Netherton wrote: ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
The hybrid could power the house. We could live very differently. And while the hybrid is powering the house if more is needed than is reasonable from the batteries heat is available as well. In fact it would make sense to leave the garage fully charged and have generated where the heat could be used.Kirk"Thompson, Mark L. (PNB RD)" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't how anyone can justify a Hybrid over a diesel. The financial numbers just don't work. My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far)45 mpg @ City Driving 55 mpg @ 60 mph 50 mpg @ 75 mph My cost is (City) $2.60/45 = 5.8 cents a mile (not includingnormal maintenance)My cost is (Freeway) $2.60/55 = 4.7 cents a mile (not includingnormal maintenance)Average 5.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving)My neighbors Prius gets55 mpg @ City Driving 51 mpg @ 60 mph Cost is (City) $2.35/60 = 3.9 cents a mile (not includingnormal maintenance)Cost is (Freeway) $2.35/51 = 4.6 cents a mile (not includingnormal maintenance)Average 4.25 cents a mile (50/50 driving) Plus Battery Deprecation 8 year/100k miles/$7000 $7000/100K = 7 cents/mile Total = 4.25 + 7.00 = 11.25 Cents/Miles Converted to French fuel prices and Taxes:http://www.day-tripper.net/pricespetrol.htmlDiesel = 1.036 euro/Liter Petro(95) = 1.209 euro/Liter Converted (1.19E/usd and 3.79 lt/gal)Diesel = 1.036 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $4.67/gal Petro = 1.209 * 1.19 * 3.79 = $5.45/gal My VW TDI gets (243K mile so far)45 mpg @ City Driving 55 mpg @ 60 mph 50 mpg @ 75 mph My cost is (City) $4.67/45 = 10.4 cents a mile (not includingnormal maintenance)My cost is (Freeway) $4.67/55 = 8.5 cents a mile (not includingnormal maintenance)Average 9.45 cents a mile (50/50 driving)My neighbors Prius gets55 mpg @ City Driving 51 mpg @ 60 mph Cost is (City) $5.45/60 = 9.0 cents a mile (not includingnormal maintenance)Cost is (Freeway) $5.45/51 = 10.7 cents a mile (not includingnormal maintenance)Average 9.85 cents a mile (50/50 driving) Plus Battery Deprecation 8 year/100k miles/$7000/19%vat = $8330$8330/100K = 8.3 cents/mile Total = 9.85 + 8.30 = 18.15 Cents/Miles In the US and Europe a diesel is about 1/2 the operating cost of ahybrid. Another thing to consider is maintenance/repair and life expectancy. My last VW diesel Died a honable death at 476,000 miles. My current one is at 243,000 miles and still running strong. My guess is if you can get 200K-250K out of a hybrid gas engine you aredoing good. Also working on diesel is relatively straight forward. Will have to sayVW has coupled the computer to the engine quite tightly. It make forinteresting trouble shooting when things are not working perfectly. Mark Andrew Netherton wrote:I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America.Andrew Netherton___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Yahoo! Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
That means that bottled water is more expensive than gasoline, as I understand, http://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htmhttp://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htm @ $1.453 per gallon. So, what was wrong with the original statement? Nothing as I understand it. Hakan At 21:25 09/03/2006, you wrote: Depends. Supermarket filtered by the gallon probably runs around $2/gallon. Name brand around $4/gallon to $20/gallon. Home delivered 5 gallon jugs ~$1.80/gallon Same company 24 .5L is $2.20/gallon Hakan Falk wrote: Question is how much does a gallon of bottled water cost in US? Hakan At 19:59 09/03/2006, you wrote: Here's a better one (more current and longer time range) http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/gas1.htmlhttp://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/gas1.html Joe Jeromie Reeves wrote: Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap fuel as I pay WAY more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water. Jeromie Andrew Netherton wrote: ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
If you exclude state and fed taxes water is much more valuable than gas. I think gas is 2.39 around me today. Find a spring, put it into a fancy bottle and your rich. Hakan Falk wrote: That means that bottled water is more expensive than gasoline, as I understand, http://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htmhttp://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htm @ $1.453 per gallon. So, what was wrong with the original statement? Nothing as I understand it. Hakan At 21:25 09/03/2006, you wrote: Depends. Supermarket filtered by the gallon probably runs around $2/gallon. Name brand around $4/gallon to $20/gallon. Home delivered 5 gallon jugs ~$1.80/gallon Same company 24 .5L is $2.20/gallon Hakan Falk wrote: Question is how much does a gallon of bottled water cost in US? Hakan At 19:59 09/03/2006, you wrote: Here's a better one (more current and longer time range) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Hakan Falk wrote: That means that bottled water is more expensive than gasoline, as I understand, http://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htmhttp://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htm @ $1.453 per gallon. So, what was wrong with the original statement? Nothing as I understand it. This is just silly. People want to make a point that gasoline is cheap in the US so they come up with something that makes it sound cheaper than water. It's not enough that we're going to compare gasoline, an industrial fuel, to food quality water that's packaged for individual consumption. Now we're going to compare the industrial, bought in large dollar quantities, price of gasoline without any kind of road or sales tax to water packaged for individual consumption with any and all applicable taxes applied. If you really want to compare the price of gasoline to water, how about using the price of water from the water company? Oh, right, it's because they charge cents per cubic foot and all of a sudden our comparison looks silly. Gasoline IS cheap in the US. It's not highly taxed compared to the rest of the world, and it doesn't include any of the external costs which might double or triple the price. It doesn't include the costs of its use (global warming, pollution, health side-effects), the costs of it's production (pollution, economic and social policies), or its procurement (military intervention, social and economic policies). Rather than dredging up platitudes about it being cheaper than water which just IMHO make people look silly , could we please talk about its real costs? Thanks, --- David ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
David, I do not understand why it is silly to want to know the facts about the following, Jeromie Reeves wrote: Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap fuel as I pay WAY more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water. Jeromie Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton I live in Europe and we pay WAY more for the fuel than bottled water. Hakan At 22:44 09/03/2006, you wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: That means that bottled water is more expensive than gasoline, as I understand, http://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htmhttp://www.bairdpetro.com/gasoline_prices/index.htm @ $1.453 per gallon. So, what was wrong with the original statement? Nothing as I understand it. This is just silly. People want to make a point that gasoline is cheap in the US so they come up with something that makes it sound cheaper than water. It's not enough that we're going to compare gasoline, an industrial fuel, to food quality water that's packaged for individual consumption. Now we're going to compare the industrial, bought in large dollar quantities, price of gasoline without any kind of road or sales tax to water packaged for individual consumption with any and all applicable taxes applied. If you really want to compare the price of gasoline to water, how about using the price of water from the water company? Oh, right, it's because they charge cents per cubic foot and all of a sudden our comparison looks silly. Gasoline IS cheap in the US. It's not highly taxed compared to the rest of the world, and it doesn't include any of the external costs which might double or triple the price. It doesn't include the costs of its use (global warming, pollution, health side-effects), the costs of it's production (pollution, economic and social policies), or its procurement (military intervention, social and economic policies). Rather than dredging up platitudes about it being cheaper than water which just IMHO make people look silly , could we please talk about its real costs? Thanks, --- David ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] hybrid efficiency
Greetings, The cost of water is a funny thing, the smaller the bottle, the more it costs. One gallon of distilled or spring water at Walmart is $0.58 however, a 16.9 oz or 500ml at the check out is $0.99. Other stores are more expensive, but have the same kind of pricing. Bright Blessings, Kim At 01:39 PM 3/9/2006, you wrote: Question is how much does a gallon of bottled water cost in US? Hakan At 19:59 09/03/2006, you wrote: Here's a better one (more current and longer time range) http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/gas1.htmlhttp://www.eia.doe.g ov/emeu/international/gas1.html Joe Jeromie Reeves wrote: Are you serious? N. America has cheap fuel? Please show me this cheap fuel as I pay WAY more for a gallon of gas then I do a gallon of bottled water. Jeromie Andrew Netherton wrote: I'll bet that research would show a mighty quick return on investment if they had done the study based on European fuel costs, and not our cheaper-than-bottled-water fuel here in North America. Andrew Netherton On 3/9/06, AltEnergyNetwork mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Research Shows Only two out Six Hybrid Cars Recoup Cost Within 5 Years http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news Yonkers, NY - Consumer Reports is revising the cost analysis in a story that examines the ownership costs and financial benefits associated with hybrid cars. The story, titled The dollars and sense of hybrids, appears in the Annual April Auto issue of CR, on newsstands now. Consumer Reports is correcting a calculation error involving the depreciation for the six hybrid vehicles that, in the story, were compared to their conventionally powered counterparts. The error led the publication to overstate how much extra money the hybrids will cost owners during the first five years. full article http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1141917443.news ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
