Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments
Have been catching bits and pieces of solar news here in Arizona. The 2nd largest PV installation in the world is in Springerville (3 or 4 MW I think the largest is in Italy) and I did see an interesting news release about a planned thermal solar project somewhere around here. Not the size given in the Australian project, but I'll believe that one when I see it built. Anyway, checking around (Bloomberg.com, etc.) it looks like that Australia solar thermal project is being run by EVM.AX (yahoo system stock symbols) a publicly traded australian company. Market cap is too small for this project, but interesting anyway. Also ran across eil.ax, http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=EIL:AU which definitely fits my goals for a biofuel-related publicly traded investment, although it also is too small for this particularly project. Their profile: Environmental Infrastructure Limited develops renewable energy in Australia. The Company converts food waste into green energy and organic fertilizer which reduces greenhouse gas emissions and landfill demand. Organic waste from food manufacturing, food retailing and hospitality sectors is recycled to form biogas which is used for heat and electricity. On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 16:58:49 +, you wrote: Hi, I guess a good excuse to take a trip to Australia!! One would think that if it were working well in Manzanares, they would have left it functioning. Regards, Derek Derek, I do not think that Spain can show anything today, Scientists have already built a successful prototype in Manzanares, Spain. The plant operated from 1982 and 1989 and had a consistent output of 50 kilowatts of green energy. Do not operate after 1989 as far as I can understand. Hakan At 18:35 26/04/2004, you wrote: Hi Art, Thank you for the link. Very interesting. I get to Spain from time-to-time and I'd like to try and see the prototype. Derek Derek, Try this one for size: http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/08/21/aus_power_020821http://www.cbc.ca/storie s/2002/08/21/aus_power_020821 Art Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments
Hi Art, Thank you for the link. Very interesting. I get to Spain from time-to-time and I'd like to try and see the prototype. Derek Derek, Try this one for size: http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/08/21/aus_power_020821 Art Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments
Derek, I do not think that Spain can show anything today, Scientists have already built a successful prototype in Manzanares, Spain. The plant operated from 1982 and 1989 and had a consistent output of 50 kilowatts of green energy. Do not operate after 1989 as far as I can understand. Hakan At 18:35 26/04/2004, you wrote: Hi Art, Thank you for the link. Very interesting. I get to Spain from time-to-time and I'd like to try and see the prototype. Derek Derek, Try this one for size: http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/08/21/aus_power_020821http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/08/21/aus_power_020821 Art Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments
Hi, I guess a good excuse to take a trip to Australia!! One would think that if it were working well in Manzanares, they would have left it functioning. Regards, Derek Derek, I do not think that Spain can show anything today, Scientists have already built a successful prototype in Manzanares, Spain. The plant operated from 1982 and 1989 and had a consistent output of 50 kilowatts of green energy. Do not operate after 1989 as far as I can understand. Hakan At 18:35 26/04/2004, you wrote: Hi Art, Thank you for the link. Very interesting. I get to Spain from time-to-time and I'd like to try and see the prototype. Derek Derek, Try this one for size: http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/08/21/aus_power_020821http://www.cbc.ca/storie s/2002/08/21/aus_power_020821 Art Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments
Hi Art, I'm not sure of all of the intricacies of how the Saharan dust gets to the Amazon, but here is one of several sources supporting this found via a quick Google search. http://www.rsmas.miami.edu/divs/mpo/Academics/Projects/Liu.doc As you said, this is not at the crux of the discussion. It was just to give you an example of the fact that desert lands often have plenty of soil and are capable of growing food under the right conditions and it doesn't require 'hydroponics.' And, all of this is off the track of the original poster. His concept was of obtaining open desert land to be used for energy production, not to be used for food production. As I recall, you came back stating something to the effect that one couldn't live on a desert island because one couldn't produce food. As I understood his original post, and what I am supporting as possible, is the use of large tracks of open land for future production of energy, basically capturing the incident solar energy. And, I still can not see why one couldn't engineer a concept to do this. I can still remember being in Maracaibo years ago getting a car repaired. The garage had a large open lot to work on vehicles. About 40 feet above the lot they had a corrugated metal roof. It was early afternoon, and that roof looked to me to be red hot from the sunlight incident upon it. However, it was high enough that none of the heat radiating from that roof bothered us at ground level. As the 'building' didn't have any walls, there was more than enough light from the sides to work, and it was clear that the working conditions in the open lot were enhanced by having that simple roof to block the sun. So...although it wouldn't be economically feasible at this time...in future...I can visualize in places like Saudi large land areas where they have built solar collectors suspended well above the ground level. If they utilized roughly half of the incident light for electricity production, there would be plenty of remaining light below the structure to farm. The solar energy production could be supplemented by wind generators as they wouldn't block significant incident light from the solar collectors. The amount of light reaching ground level would be about what is needed to farm, and it wouldn't be nearly as hot at ground level either, and water needs would be consequently diminished. As I mentioned before, I currently see small scale structures in Saudi where they grow vegetables using translucent plastic roofs to allow only about half the incident light to reach the ground. It seems wasteful that the light blocked by the roof is not utilized...whereas if the roof were replaced by a solar collector it would be. Anyway...I doubt that I would see something large scale like that in my lifetime...but I think it would work as well or better than a lot of other large scale solar collector sci-fi type concepts. Regards, Derek Bob, The PREVAILING winds do move from west to east in both hemispheres due to the rotation of the earth. Hurricanes, which contain a large amount of energy, can move in a variety of directions - especially near the equator. Note the following: http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/weather/A0849225.html trade winds, movement of air toward the equator, from the NE in the Northern Hemisphere and from the SE in the Southern Hemisphere. The trade winds originate on the equatorial sides of the horse latitudes, which are two belts of high air pressure, one lying between 25¡ and 30¡ north of the equator and the other lying between 25¡ and 30¡ south of it. The high air pressure in these belts forces air to move toward a belt of low air pressure along the equator called the doldrums. The air converging at the doldrums rises high over the earth, recirculates poleward, and sinks back toward the earth's surface in the region of the horse latitudes, thus completing a cycle. The air does not move directly north or south because it is deflected by the rotation of the earth. See wind; Coriolis effect. It is not a serious point however. The issue for me is trying to generate food in desert like conditions. You can do it - you can also push water up hill but it all takes an inordinate amount of cheap energy to make it work. The goal is to make the system sustainable which means, most likely, that you need to work with nature rather than against it. Art - Original Message - From: bob allen To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 8:51 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments actually Art, the winds do blow from east to west across the Atlantic at least at the latitude which carries dust from the Sahara to the Caribbean and northeast South America. Think Atlantic hurricanes which are spawned off the coast of Africa and move
Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments
Derek, Try this one for size: http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/08/21/aus_power_020821 Art - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 8:14 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments Hi Art, I'm not sure of all of the intricacies of how the Saharan dust gets to the Amazon, but here is one of several sources supporting this found via a quick Google search. http://www.rsmas.miami.edu/divs/mpo/Academics/Projects/Liu.doc As you said, this is not at the crux of the discussion. It was just to give you an example of the fact that desert lands often have plenty of soil and are capable of growing food under the right conditions and it doesn't require 'hydroponics.' And, all of this is off the track of the original poster. His concept was of obtaining open desert land to be used for energy production, not to be used for food production. As I recall, you came back stating something to the effect that one couldn't live on a desert island because one couldn't produce food. As I understood his original post, and what I am supporting as possible, is the use of large tracks of open land for future production of energy, basically capturing the incident solar energy. And, I still can not see why one couldn't engineer a concept to do this. I can still remember being in Maracaibo years ago getting a car repaired. The garage had a large open lot to work on vehicles. About 40 feet above the lot they had a corrugated metal roof. It was early afternoon, and that roof looked to me to be red hot from the sunlight incident upon it. However, it was high enough that none of the heat radiating from that roof bothered us at ground level. As the 'building' didn't have any walls, there was more than enough light from the sides to work, and it was clear that the working conditions in the open lot were enhanced by having that simple roof to block the sun. So...although it wouldn't be economically feasible at this time...in future...I can visualize in places like Saudi large land areas where they have built solar collectors suspended well above the ground level. If they utilized roughly half of the incident light for electricity production, there would be plenty of remaining light below the structure to farm. The solar energy production could be supplemented by wind generators as they wouldn't block significant incident light from the solar collectors. The amount of light reaching ground level would be about what is needed to farm, and it wouldn't be nearly as hot at ground level either, and water needs would be consequently diminished. As I mentioned before, I currently see small scale structures in Saudi where they grow vegetables using translucent plastic roofs to allow only about half the incident light to reach the ground. It seems wasteful that the light blocked by the roof is not utilized...whereas if the roof were replaced by a solar collector it would be. Anyway...I doubt that I would see something large scale like that in my lifetime...but I think it would work as well or better than a lot of other large scale solar collector sci-fi type concepts. Regards, Derek Bob, The PREVAILING winds do move from west to east in both hemispheres due to the rotation of the earth. Hurricanes, which contain a large amount of energy, can move in a variety of directions - especially near the equator. Note the following: http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/weather/A0849225.html trade winds, movement of air toward the equator, from the NE in the Northern Hemisphere and from the SE in the Southern Hemisphere. The trade winds originate on the equatorial sides of the horse latitudes, which are two belts of high air pressure, one lying between 25¡ and 30¡ north of the equator and the other lying between 25¡ and 30¡ south of it. The high air pressure in these belts forces air to move toward a belt of low air pressure along the equator called the doldrums. The air converging at the doldrums rises high over the earth, recirculates poleward, and sinks back toward the earth's surface in the region of the horse latitudes, thus completing a cycle. The air does not move directly north or south because it is deflected by the rotation of the earth. See wind; Coriolis effect. It is not a serious point however. The issue for me is trying to generate food in desert like conditions. You can do it - you can also push water up hill but it all takes an inordinate amount of cheap energy to make it work. The goal is to make the system sustainable which means, most likely, that you need to work with nature rather than against it. Art - Original Message - From: bob allen To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 8:51 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation
Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments
Hi, I vaguely recall reading that a lot of the nutrients for the Amazon are carried by wind from the Sahara. Although a lot of the desert is 'just' sand, most of it has plenty of soil. If given a bit of water it blooms. It is amazing what all pops up once there is a bit of rain. I think we basically agree on the best way to grow food, etc. But, I don't think Brian's suggestion of investing in desert land and adapting it to future energy production is without merit either. Certainly I don't think it should be discounted out of hand as a worthless idea. Regards, Derek Derek, All the energy fuss doesn't cut ice. If it isn't sustainable, what is it? An experiment? How much of your wheat is grown using water produced by reverse osmosis? Would this be possible if the Saudi Arabian economy were not sustained by the sales of oil to the rest of the world? Try the energy experience in the Sudan economy perhaps or Yeman and see how far it goes. The biggest places that are exporting food today have natural water and soil. These has been the traditional basis for food production since the beginning of time. Not energy alone. Energy helps but if you have nothing to eat, all the energy in the world doesn't do you a bit of good. You don't farm in a desert because there is insufficient water or organic matter in the sand to make the system work. Hydroponics does not compare with soil produced food in quality or cost. As an experiment, it might work fine but to produce food for 4 billion people it quickly fails. The problem with viewing the problem from only an energy standpoint is the saying, to a man with a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail. Sustainability should be the watchword. Art - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 8:23 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments Hi, Unlimited energy leads to all other needs. The most essential raw product is energy. Once one has energy they can recycle water, make water, grow food in all sorts of ways, etc. I've lived in the desert for ten years. It was an eye opener to realize how dependent life in the desert is on energy, and how everything else pales. I live in Saudi...number one in the world at making potable water from the sea. They grow enough wheat to meet their own needs, and export the excess. Life is dependent on energy like nowhere else. Please don't misunderstand me. I am not advocating this. I don't consider much this to be sustainable. But, I don't think it is wise to minimize the importance of energy as the fundamental building block under everything else. In the desert, it would be easily possible to harvest 50% of the incident light for electricity production and to farm with the remaining light. Brian is right on. The future energy production for the world could well come from worthless deserts, with a top layer of Photovoltaics and vast farms under the light collectors. The energy could possibly be exported by either microwaves or hydrogen pipelines. Regards, Derek Brian, Before you invest in worthless desert islands, you better make sure you can raise food on that island. Energy alone, whether hydrogen or electricity, makes a poor meal even for an energy guru. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments
Derek, Unless the prevailing wind has reversed its course on your world, the wind blows FROM the Amazon TO the Sahara desert (unless it goes around the world). There would be alot of other deserving people the Sahara winds would cross before it got the Amazon that way around. I'm not saying the desert concept is worthless - I am saying that the concept is not practical or sustainable without an inordinate dependence upon alot of cheap energy. Art - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 2:34 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments Hi, I vaguely recall reading that a lot of the nutrients for the Amazon are carried by wind from the Sahara. Although a lot of the desert is 'just' sand, most of it has plenty of soil. If given a bit of water it blooms. It is amazing what all pops up once there is a bit of rain. I think we basically agree on the best way to grow food, etc. But, I don't think Brian's suggestion of investing in desert land and adapting it to future energy production is without merit either. Certainly I don't think it should be discounted out of hand as a worthless idea. Regards, Derek Derek, All the energy fuss doesn't cut ice. If it isn't sustainable, what is it? An experiment? How much of your wheat is grown using water produced by reverse osmosis? Would this be possible if the Saudi Arabian economy were not sustained by the sales of oil to the rest of the world? Try the energy experience in the Sudan economy perhaps or Yeman and see how far it goes. The biggest places that are exporting food today have natural water and soil. These has been the traditional basis for food production since the beginning of time. Not energy alone. Energy helps but if you have nothing to eat, all the energy in the world doesn't do you a bit of good. You don't farm in a desert because there is insufficient water or organic matter in the sand to make the system work. Hydroponics does not compare with soil produced food in quality or cost. As an experiment, it might work fine but to produce food for 4 billion people it quickly fails. The problem with viewing the problem from only an energy standpoint is the saying, to a man with a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail. Sustainability should be the watchword. Art - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 8:23 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments Hi, Unlimited energy leads to all other needs. The most essential raw product is energy. Once one has energy they can recycle water, make water, grow food in all sorts of ways, etc. I've lived in the desert for ten years. It was an eye opener to realize how dependent life in the desert is on energy, and how everything else pales. I live in Saudi...number one in the world at making potable water from the sea. They grow enough wheat to meet their own needs, and export the excess. Life is dependent on energy like nowhere else. Please don't misunderstand me. I am not advocating this. I don't consider much this to be sustainable. But, I don't think it is wise to minimize the importance of energy as the fundamental building block under everything else. In the desert, it would be easily possible to harvest 50% of the incident light for electricity production and to farm with the remaining light. Brian is right on. The future energy production for the world could well come from worthless deserts, with a top layer of Photovoltaics and vast farms under the light collectors. The energy could possibly be exported by either microwaves or hydrogen pipelines. Regards, Derek Brian, Before you invest in worthless desert islands, you better make sure you can raise food on that island. Energy alone, whether hydrogen or electricity, makes a poor meal even for an energy guru. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b
Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments
Derek, Unless the prevailing wind has reversed its course on your world, the wind blows FROM the Amazon TO the Sahara desert (unless it goes around the world). There would be alot of other deserving people the Sahara winds would cross before it got the Amazon that way around. In the Northern Hemisphere, I can see how the winds would blow from, say, the States to Europe (thus aiding air travel in that direction, for example). However, I question whether the direction isn't reversed for the Southern Hemisphere (the Amazon) and-or whether it mightn't be true that some of the Sahara blows toward the Amazon, from West to East. Or, even if it blows on the other direction, whether it mightn't be true that the debris from the Sahara end up in the Amazon, having traveled much of the globe's circumfrence. Dunno. I'm not saying the desert concept is worthless - I am saying that the concept is not practical or sustainable without an inordinate dependence upon alot of cheap energy. Art Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments
actually Art, the winds do blow from east to west across the Atlantic at least at the latitude which carries dust from the Sahara to the Caribbean and northeast South America. Think Atlantic hurricanes which are spawned off the coast of Africa and move in a westerly direction to east coast of the US and caribbean islands. An interesting discussion of dust movement from east to west is in The Secret Life of dust by Hanna Holmes. Art Krenzel wrote: Derek, Unless the prevailing wind has reversed its course on your world, the wind blows FROM the Amazon TO the Sahara desert (unless it goes around the world). There would be alot of other deserving people the Sahara winds would cross before it got the Amazon that way around. I'm not saying the desert concept is worthless - I am saying that the concept is not practical or sustainable without an inordinate dependence upon alot of cheap energy. Art - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 2:34 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments Hi, I vaguely recall reading that a lot of the nutrients for the Amazon are carried by wind from the Sahara. Although a lot of the desert is 'just' sand, most of it has plenty of soil. If given a bit of water it blooms. It is amazing what all pops up once there is a bit of rain. I think we basically agree on the best way to grow food, etc. But, I don't think Brian's suggestion of investing in desert land and adapting it to future energy production is without merit either. Certainly I don't think it should be discounted out of hand as a worthless idea. Regards, Derek Derek, All the energy fuss doesn't cut ice. If it isn't sustainable, what is it? An experiment? How much of your wheat is grown using water produced by reverse osmosis? Would this be possible if the Saudi Arabian economy were not sustained by the sales of oil to the rest of the world? Try the energy experience in the Sudan economy perhaps or Yeman and see how far it goes. The biggest places that are exporting food today have natural water and soil. These has been the traditional basis for food production since the beginning of time. Not energy alone. Energy helps but if you have nothing to eat, all the energy in the world doesn't do you a bit of good. You don't farm in a desert because there is insufficient water or organic matter in the sand to make the system work. Hydroponics does not compare with soil produced food in quality or cost. As an experiment, it might work fine but to produce food for 4 billion people it quickly fails. The problem with viewing the problem from only an energy standpoint is the saying, to a man with a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail. Sustainability should be the watchword. Art - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 8:23 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments Hi, Unlimited energy leads to all other needs. The most essential raw product is energy. Once one has energy they can recycle water, make water, grow food in all sorts of ways, etc. I've lived in the desert for ten years. It was an eye opener to realize how dependent life in the desert is on energy, and how everything else pales. I live in Saudi...number one in the world at making potable water from the sea. They grow enough wheat to meet their own needs, and export the excess. Life is dependent on energy like nowhere else. Please don't misunderstand me. I am not advocating this. I don't consider much this to be sustainable. But, I don't think it is wise to minimize the importance of energy as the fundamental building block under everything else. In the desert, it would be easily possible to harvest 50% of the incident light for electricity production and to farm with the remaining light. Brian is right on. The future energy production for the world could well come from worthless deserts, with a top layer of Photovoltaics and vast farms under the light collectors. The energy could possibly be exported by either microwaves or hydrogen pipelines. Regards, Derek Brian, Before you invest in worthless desert islands, you better make sure you can raise food on that island. Energy alone, whether hydrogen or electricity, makes a poor meal even for an energy guru. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX
Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments
Bob, The PREVAILING winds do move from west to east in both hemispheres due to the rotation of the earth. Hurricanes, which contain a large amount of energy, can move in a variety of directions - especially near the equator. Note the following: http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/weather/A0849225.html trade winds, movement of air toward the equator, from the NE in the Northern Hemisphere and from the SE in the Southern Hemisphere. The trade winds originate on the equatorial sides of the horse latitudes, which are two belts of high air pressure, one lying between 25¡ and 30¡ north of the equator and the other lying between 25¡ and 30¡ south of it. The high air pressure in these belts forces air to move toward a belt of low air pressure along the equator called the doldrums. The air converging at the doldrums rises high over the earth, recirculates poleward, and sinks back toward the earth's surface in the region of the horse latitudes, thus completing a cycle. The air does not move directly north or south because it is deflected by the rotation of the earth. See wind; Coriolis effect. It is not a serious point however. The issue for me is trying to generate food in desert like conditions. You can do it - you can also push water up hill but it all takes an inordinate amount of cheap energy to make it work. The goal is to make the system sustainable which means, most likely, that you need to work with nature rather than against it. Art - Original Message - From: bob allen To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 8:51 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments actually Art, the winds do blow from east to west across the Atlantic at least at the latitude which carries dust from the Sahara to the Caribbean and northeast South America. Think Atlantic hurricanes which are spawned off the coast of Africa and move in a westerly direction to east coast of the US and caribbean islands. An interesting discussion of dust movement from east to west is in The Secret Life of dust by Hanna Holmes. Art Krenzel wrote: Derek, Unless the prevailing wind has reversed its course on your world, the wind blows FROM the Amazon TO the Sahara desert (unless it goes around the world). There would be alot of other deserving people the Sahara winds would cross before it got the Amazon that way around. I'm not saying the desert concept is worthless - I am saying that the concept is not practical or sustainable without an inordinate dependence upon alot of cheap energy. Art - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 2:34 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments Hi, I vaguely recall reading that a lot of the nutrients for the Amazon are carried by wind from the Sahara. Although a lot of the desert is 'just' sand, most of it has plenty of soil. If given a bit of water it blooms. It is amazing what all pops up once there is a bit of rain. I think we basically agree on the best way to grow food, etc. But, I don't think Brian's suggestion of investing in desert land and adapting it to future energy production is without merit either. Certainly I don't think it should be discounted out of hand as a worthless idea. Regards, Derek Derek, All the energy fuss doesn't cut ice. If it isn't sustainable, what is it? An experiment? How much of your wheat is grown using water produced by reverse osmosis? Would this be possible if the Saudi Arabian economy were not sustained by the sales of oil to the rest of the world? Try the energy experience in the Sudan economy perhaps or Yeman and see how far it goes. The biggest places that are exporting food today have natural water and soil. These has been the traditional basis for food production since the beginning of time. Not energy alone. Energy helps but if you have nothing to eat, all the energy in the world doesn't do you a bit of good. You don't farm in a desert because there is insufficient water or organic matter in the sand to make the system work. Hydroponics does not compare with soil produced food in quality or cost. As an experiment, it might work fine but to produce food for 4 billion people it quickly fails. The problem with viewing the problem from only an energy standpoint is the saying, to a man with a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail. Sustainability should be the watchword. Art - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments
the trade winds blow from east to west at about 15 degrees north latitude. they brought Columbus to the west Indies. the prevailing winds, north of about 35 degrees, blow west to east and took him home, and moved goods from the colonies back to Europe. storms blow from west to east off the gobi desert in china and deposit dust on the US pacific coast of northern California and Oregon murdoch wrote: Derek, Unless the prevailing wind has reversed its course on your world, the wind blows FROM the Amazon TO the Sahara desert (unless it goes around the world). There would be alot of other deserving people the Sahara winds would cross before it got the Amazon that way around. In the Northern Hemisphere, I can see how the winds would blow from, say, the States to Europe (thus aiding air travel in that direction, for example). However, I question whether the direction isn't reversed for the Southern Hemisphere (the Amazon) and-or whether it mightn't be true that some of the Sahara blows toward the Amazon, from West to East. Or, even if it blows on the other direction, whether it mightn't be true that the debris from the Sahara end up in the Amazon, having traveled much of the globe's circumfrence. Dunno. I'm not saying the desert concept is worthless - I am saying that the concept is not practical or sustainable without an inordinate dependence upon alot of cheap energy. Art Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments
It's not a bad idea. I don't know of any specific stock symbol by which to take advantage of it, but I really don't think it's that bad of an idea. In fact, even though I only own one acre here in Southern Arizona, I was just thinking today how, hopefully going forward, such over-hot land will be turned toward greater productivity in a variety of ways, in the world of tomorrow. I.e: ideally the negative of too much sun can be turned into a positive by such measures as PV or some agricultural uses. I was also noticing that, under stock symbol PNW, a holding company for an Arizona utility, I'm seeing some decent-sized Renewable Energy Projects. More than one of them is starting to make use of this 'worthless' desert land. They're not enough to make PNW a play on renewable energy (just a pittance by their revenues) but they make for nice reading. On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 02:01:57 -, you wrote: If I had real money to invest, I'd be buying up worthless desert land. Between solar and wind technology, there is enough energy being wasted in the desert to do quite a bit of hydrogen conversion for fuel cell cars, if this technology ever goes anywhere. At least that's my bright idea of the past year or so. Brian --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone here have any ideas for investments in stocks (anywhere in the world... does *not* have to be North America) that have a good sustainable technology or energy technology or conservation angle? I am working on a project to collect and refine some ideas in this area, and there are a couple of roadblocks I've run into. For example, I was trying to think of a way, any way at all, to invest in the idea of energy conservation in the general realm of locally-grown locally-consumed low-input high-output foods. But how to do this? I started tossing around the idea of Whole Foods (WFMI on yahoo U.S. stock boards) just because on balance one might end up shopping there for foods that have been grown according to 'some' conservationist principles, lower Petroleum input, etc. If one buys eggs produced from range fed chickens, at least that's something. But putting aside that dissatisfying compromise, if anyone has any ideas, including 'outside the box' ideas of companies you've seen practicing or selling some offbeat sustainable idea or product, .. I'd be curious to hear it. We all know about some of the mainstream investments, some of the more high-profile much-discussed Hydrogen Fuel Cell companies, and once in awhile we've tossed around biofuel investment ideas (although my list is short or nonexistent, unless I include non-pure-plays), but I feel certain that around the world there must be a few stocks here and there that would be worth considering for this project. Will post to the evworld.com and biofuel discussion groups. Am particularly keen to take advantage of the international aspect of these discussion groups, in case there is someone in Europe or Asia who might have some ideas for me. For example, it's not much-discussed here in the States, but one of the only pure-plays I've found in Solar Photovoltaics is SWVG.F on yahoo (the 'F' standing for the Frankfurt exchange) apparently a solar company that can be researched at solarworld.de. I'm not recommending them as an investment, just pointing out that if I go outside of North America, there are some interesting companies to be researched. I've particularly had a lot of trouble with Japan, in part due to symbol-conventions, and in part due to the more involved hard-to-follow company partnerships. And once I determine that a company has a partial involvement in an industry, I like to try to read their reports and nail down what percentage of their business is involved, and this seems harder for some reason with Japanese companies.One minor example I guess would be Nippon-Chemi-Con (Yahoo gives some numerical symbol, don't have it handy) which does make capacitors and other electronics for auto and other industries. So: yes, they do make a sort of ultracapacitor, though it's hard to research them the way I might with another company, and nail down what percentage of their business seems committed to progressive technologies in this area. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM
Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments
MM, It is several larger engineering companies who started to work with improving energy efficiency in Central Europe. They make a contract with the client, to share the net profits from the measures that they implement, as the engineering fee. In some cases they also take over maintenance and management. They give unchanged or improvement comfort guarantees, so it is a win - win for the client, easy money for the engineering company. Had a couple who not only looked at our site, but also checked our credentials, before they contacted me and offered quite good terms for a cooperation. They offered us participation and they all had some connection to Swedish , but it would also mean that our site would be restricted on information and we declined. The funny thing is that we helped an engineer in Sweden around 30 years ago, to took service maintenance contracts with large apartment and office property owners. We did simulations on the buildings and he had equipment for alarm and measurement installed in the buildings, when he knew how a building were expected to behave, he had software for remote control and could do adjustments to save energy. It seems like this business idea are flourishing in Central Europe now and that it is very profitable for all parties. Hakan At 07:52 22/04/2004, you wrote: It's not a bad idea. I don't know of any specific stock symbol by which to take advantage of it, but I really don't think it's that bad of an idea. In fact, even though I only own one acre here in Southern Arizona, I was just thinking today how, hopefully going forward, such over-hot land will be turned toward greater productivity in a variety of ways, in the world of tomorrow. I.e: ideally the negative of too much sun can be turned into a positive by such measures as PV or some agricultural uses. I was also noticing that, under stock symbol PNW, a holding company for an Arizona utility, I'm seeing some decent-sized Renewable Energy Projects. More than one of them is starting to make use of this 'worthless' desert land. They're not enough to make PNW a play on renewable energy (just a pittance by their revenues) but they make for nice reading. On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 02:01:57 -, you wrote: If I had real money to invest, I'd be buying up worthless desert land. Between solar and wind technology, there is enough energy being wasted in the desert to do quite a bit of hydrogen conversion for fuel cell cars, if this technology ever goes anywhere. At least that's my bright idea of the past year or so. Brian --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone here have any ideas for investments in stocks (anywhere in the world... does *not* have to be North America) that have a good sustainable technology or energy technology or conservation angle? I am working on a project to collect and refine some ideas in this area, and there are a couple of roadblocks I've run into. For example, I was trying to think of a way, any way at all, to invest in the idea of energy conservation in the general realm of locally-grown locally-consumed low-input high-output foods. But how to do this? I started tossing around the idea of Whole Foods (WFMI on yahoo U.S. stock boards) just because on balance one might end up shopping there for foods that have been grown according to 'some' conservationist principles, lower Petroleum input, etc. If one buys eggs produced from range fed chickens, at least that's something. But putting aside that dissatisfying compromise, if anyone has any ideas, including 'outside the box' ideas of companies you've seen practicing or selling some offbeat sustainable idea or product, .. I'd be curious to hear it. We all know about some of the mainstream investments, some of the more high-profile much-discussed Hydrogen Fuel Cell companies, and once in awhile we've tossed around biofuel investment ideas (although my list is short or nonexistent, unless I include non-pure-plays), but I feel certain that around the world there must be a few stocks here and there that would be worth considering for this project. Will post to the evworld.com and biofuel discussion groups. Am particularly keen to take advantage of the international aspect of these discussion groups, in case there is someone in Europe or Asia who might have some ideas for me. For example, it's not much-discussed here in the States, but one of the only pure-plays I've found in Solar Photovoltaics is SWVG.F on yahoo (the 'F' standing for the Frankfurt exchange) apparently a solar company that can be researched at solarworld.de. I'm not recommending them as an investment, just pointing out that if I go outside of North America, there are some interesting companies to be researched. I've particularly had a lot of trouble with Japan, in part due to symbol-conventions, and in part
Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments
Brian, Before you invest in worthless desert islands, you better make sure you can raise food on that island. Energy alone, whether hydrogen or electricity, makes a poor meal even for an energy guru. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Brian To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 7:01 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments If I had real money to invest, I'd be buying up worthless desert land. Between solar and wind technology, there is enough energy being wasted in the desert to do quite a bit of hydrogen conversion for fuel cell cars, if this technology ever goes anywhere. At least that's my bright idea of the past year or so. Brian --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone here have any ideas for investments in stocks (anywhere in the world... does *not* have to be North America) that have a good sustainable technology or energy technology or conservation angle? I am working on a project to collect and refine some ideas in this area, and there are a couple of roadblocks I've run into. For example, I was trying to think of a way, any way at all, to invest in the idea of energy conservation in the general realm of locally-grown locally-consumed low-input high-output foods. But how to do this? I started tossing around the idea of Whole Foods (WFMI on yahoo U.S. stock boards) just because on balance one might end up shopping there for foods that have been grown according to 'some' conservationist principles, lower Petroleum input, etc. If one buys eggs produced from range fed chickens, at least that's something. But putting aside that dissatisfying compromise, if anyone has any ideas, including 'outside the box' ideas of companies you've seen practicing or selling some offbeat sustainable idea or product, .. I'd be curious to hear it. We all know about some of the mainstream investments, some of the more high-profile much-discussed Hydrogen Fuel Cell companies, and once in awhile we've tossed around biofuel investment ideas (although my list is short or nonexistent, unless I include non-pure-plays), but I feel certain that around the world there must be a few stocks here and there that would be worth considering for this project. Will post to the evworld.com and biofuel discussion groups. Am particularly keen to take advantage of the international aspect of these discussion groups, in case there is someone in Europe or Asia who might have some ideas for me. For example, it's not much-discussed here in the States, but one of the only pure-plays I've found in Solar Photovoltaics is SWVG.F on yahoo (the 'F' standing for the Frankfurt exchange) apparently a solar company that can be researched at solarworld.de. I'm not recommending them as an investment, just pointing out that if I go outside of North America, there are some interesting companies to be researched. I've particularly had a lot of trouble with Japan, in part due to symbol-conventions, and in part due to the more involved hard-to-follow company partnerships. And once I determine that a company has a partial involvement in an industry, I like to try to read their reports and nail down what percentage of their business is involved, and this seems harder for some reason with Japanese companies.One minor example I guess would be Nippon-Chemi-Con (Yahoo gives some numerical symbol, don't have it handy) which does make capacitors and other electronics for auto and other industries. So: yes, they do make a sort of ultracapacitor, though it's hard to research them the way I might with another company, and nail down what percentage of their business seems committed to progressive technologies in this area. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon
Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments
Hi, Unlimited energy leads to all other needs. The most essential raw product is energy. Once one has energy they can recycle water, make water, grow food in all sorts of ways, etc. I've lived in the desert for ten years. It was an eye opener to realize how dependent life in the desert is on energy, and how everything else pales. I live in Saudi...number one in the world at making potable water from the sea. They grow enough wheat to meet their own needs, and export the excess. Life is dependent on energy like nowhere else. Please don't misunderstand me. I am not advocating this. I don't consider much this to be sustainable. But, I don't think it is wise to minimize the importance of energy as the fundamental building block under everything else. In the desert, it would be easily possible to harvest 50% of the incident light for electricity production and to farm with the remaining light. Brian is right on. The future energy production for the world could well come from worthless deserts, with a top layer of Photovoltaics and vast farms under the light collectors. The energy could possibly be exported by either microwaves or hydrogen pipelines. Regards, Derek Brian, Before you invest in worthless desert islands, you better make sure you can raise food on that island. Energy alone, whether hydrogen or electricity, makes a poor meal even for an energy guru. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Brian To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 7:01 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments If I had real money to invest, I'd be buying up worthless desert land. Between solar and wind technology, there is enough energy being wasted in the desert to do quite a bit of hydrogen conversion for fuel cell cars, if this technology ever goes anywhere. At least that's my bright idea of the past year or so. Brian --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone here have any ideas for investments in stocks (anywhere in the world... does *not* have to be North America) that have a good sustainable technology or energy technology or conservation angle? I am working on a project to collect and refine some ideas in this area, and there are a couple of roadblocks I've run into. For example, I was trying to think of a way, any way at all, to invest in the idea of energy conservation in the general realm of locally-grown locally-consumed low-input high-output foods. But how to do this? I started tossing around the idea of Whole Foods (WFMI on yahoo U.S. stock boards) just because on balance one might end up shopping there for foods that have been grown according to 'some' conservationist principles, lower Petroleum input, etc. If one buys eggs produced from range fed chickens, at least that's something. But putting aside that dissatisfying compromise, if anyone has any ideas, including 'outside the box' ideas of companies you've seen practicing or selling some offbeat sustainable idea or product, .. I'd be curious to hear it. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments
Derek, All the energy fuss doesn't cut ice. If it isn't sustainable, what is it? An experiment? How much of your wheat is grown using water produced by reverse osmosis? Would this be possible if the Saudi Arabian economy were not sustained by the sales of oil to the rest of the world? Try the energy experience in the Sudan economy perhaps or Yeman and see how far it goes. The biggest places that are exporting food today have natural water and soil. These has been the traditional basis for food production since the beginning of time. Not energy alone. Energy helps but if you have nothing to eat, all the energy in the world doesn't do you a bit of good. You don't farm in a desert because there is insufficient water or organic matter in the sand to make the system work. Hydroponics does not compare with soil produced food in quality or cost. As an experiment, it might work fine but to produce food for 4 billion people it quickly fails. The problem with viewing the problem from only an energy standpoint is the saying, to a man with a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail. Sustainability should be the watchword. Art - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 8:23 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments Hi, Unlimited energy leads to all other needs. The most essential raw product is energy. Once one has energy they can recycle water, make water, grow food in all sorts of ways, etc. I've lived in the desert for ten years. It was an eye opener to realize how dependent life in the desert is on energy, and how everything else pales. I live in Saudi...number one in the world at making potable water from the sea. They grow enough wheat to meet their own needs, and export the excess. Life is dependent on energy like nowhere else. Please don't misunderstand me. I am not advocating this. I don't consider much this to be sustainable. But, I don't think it is wise to minimize the importance of energy as the fundamental building block under everything else. In the desert, it would be easily possible to harvest 50% of the incident light for electricity production and to farm with the remaining light. Brian is right on. The future energy production for the world could well come from worthless deserts, with a top layer of Photovoltaics and vast farms under the light collectors. The energy could possibly be exported by either microwaves or hydrogen pipelines. Regards, Derek Brian, Before you invest in worthless desert islands, you better make sure you can raise food on that island. Energy alone, whether hydrogen or electricity, makes a poor meal even for an energy guru. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Brian To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 7:01 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments If I had real money to invest, I'd be buying up worthless desert land. Between solar and wind technology, there is enough energy being wasted in the desert to do quite a bit of hydrogen conversion for fuel cell cars, if this technology ever goes anywhere. At least that's my bright idea of the past year or so. Brian --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone here have any ideas for investments in stocks (anywhere in the world... does *not* have to be North America) that have a good sustainable technology or energy technology or conservation angle? I am working on a project to collect and refine some ideas in this area, and there are a couple of roadblocks I've run into. For example, I was trying to think of a way, any way at all, to invest in the idea of energy conservation in the general realm of locally-grown locally-consumed low-input high-output foods. But how to do this? I started tossing around the idea of Whole Foods (WFMI on yahoo U.S. stock boards) just because on balance one might end up shopping there for foods that have been grown according to 'some' conservationist principles, lower Petroleum input, etc. If one buys eggs produced from range fed chickens, at least that's something. But putting aside that dissatisfying compromise, if anyone has any ideas, including 'outside the box' ideas of companies you've seen practicing or selling some offbeat sustainable idea or product, .. I'd be curious to hear it. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http
