[symfony-users] Offbeat: open source vs closed source technologies
Hey guys, Just lighting up everyone's day, would like to get as many as possible arguments on this. Me and a friend of mine, had a debate last evening, about open source(PHP) vs closed source technologies(DOT NET).He raised the following points: 1. He feels that open source is not reliable whereas closed source is. The logic being that, once the application is developed and sold, if it runs into some kind of a bug or an error, there is support team for closed source technologies who are going to come and help you fix it, whereas this is not a guarantee in open source technologies. 2. Development for a successful open source technology is community dependent, implying the choice is still on a faithful group of users, whereas in closed source technologies it is more reliable because it is being backed by a company (microsoft for .NET and SAP for SAP). f 3. The third point that was raised is, closed source technologies enforce quality control as opposed to open source technologies, where the onus on quality control in case of the latter, is more on the developer himself. The reasoning I could offer was that big companies such as Yahoo ( symfony), facebook (php), and Twitter (rails) rely on open source technologies, surely they are aware of the above points but still choose to go with open source rather than closed source technologies. Money is not the most important criteria for these companies, and there definitely is a better reason why they choose open rather than closed source technologies. However, it is still not convincing me for I found myself agreeing to the points my friend raised in favor of closed source technologies. Can anyone shed a light on this? Thanks!!! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
Re: [symfony-users] Offbeat: open source vs closed source technologies
I think these days, the line between open source and "closed" source is somewhat blurred - and this is a good thing. You now have "premium open source" - with the likes of RHEL, SugarCRM, MySQL and Magento. Microsoft technologies are no longer exclusively closed - I'm currently working with a team of 9 .net/wpf/silverlight developers that are all using open source technology, along with big ticket items such as BizTalk. Pragmatism at it's best - using the correct tool for the job. MySQL may be free, but my database on this project is going to have half a billion rows - I can't see relying on community support for solving scalability issues to be clever - intact, it's a massive risk on the project risk register. Luckily, as I mentioned already - there are MySQL professional services. The whole IIS/windows server licensing issue is also beginning to disappear - if you want a well supported, enterprise grade, stable and scalable PHP environment, you'll likely want Zend Server - which costs around the same as a Windows Server license. Apache, lighttp, nginx etc are all free, but who actually supports them? If your server goes bump in the night, who you gonna call? As always, you get what you pay for. This is true regardless of open source vs "closed". If you do open source on the cheap you'll get bad coders that will produce crap, then disappear. Spend more and you'll get a better application, that requires less maintenance and because it's built well, easier to maintain and the developers won't disappear because they're terrified of supporting their own bad code. Open source vs closed? IMHO, makes no difference unless you hire bad developers or are unable to maintain a good relationship with your developers. Sent from my iWheel On 8 Jan 2010, at 08:46, Parijat Kalia wrote: Hey guys, Just lighting up everyone's day, would like to get as many as possible arguments on this. Me and a friend of mine, had a debate last evening, about open source(PHP) vs closed source technologies (DOT NET).He raised the following points: 1. He feels that open source is not reliable whereas closed source is. The logic being that, once the application is developed and sold, if it runs into some kind of a bug or an error, there is support team for closed source technologies who are going to come and help you fix it, whereas this is not a guarantee in open source technologies. 2. Development for a successful open source technology is community dependent, implying the choice is still on a faithful group of users, whereas in closed source technologies it is more reliable because it is being backed by a company (microsoft for .NET and SAP for SAP). f 3. The third point that was raised is, closed source technologies enforce quality control as opposed to open source technologies, where the onus on quality control in case of the latter, is more on the developer himself. The reasoning I could offer was that big companies such as Yahoo ( symfony), facebook (php), and Twitter (rails) rely on open source technologies, surely they are aware of the above points but still choose to go with open source rather than closed source technologies. Money is not the most important criteria for these companies, and there definitely is a better reason why they choose open rather than closed source technologies. However, it is still not convincing me for I found myself agreeing to the points my friend raised in favor of closed source technologies. Can anyone shed a light on this? Thanks!!! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
Re: [symfony-users] Offbeat: open source vs closed source technologies
On Fri, 8 Jan 2010, Lee Bolding wrote: > The whole IIS/windows server licensing issue is also beginning to > disappear - if you want a well supported, enterprise grade, stable and > scalable PHP environment, you'll likely want Zend Server - which costs > around the same as a Windows Server license. Apache, lighttp, nginx > etc are all free, but who actually supports them? If your server goes > bump in the night, who you gonna call? We have our own support team to call :-) -- A -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
Re: [symfony-users] Offbeat: open source vs closed source technologies
On Fri, 8 Jan 2010, Parijat Kalia wrote: > 1. He feels that open source is not reliable whereas closed source is. The > logic being that, once the application is developed and sold, if it runs > into some kind of a bug or an error, there is support team for closed source > technologies who are going to come and help you fix it, whereas this is not > a guarantee in open source technologies. Even with closed source products there's no guarantee that you'll get a stable product with all the bugs fixed. Even with paying customers, companies can choose not to fix bugs because the next version is around the corner. > 2. Development for a successful open source technology is community > dependent, implying the choice is still on a faithful group of users, > whereas in closed source technologies it is more reliable because it is > being backed by a company (microsoft for .NET and SAP for SAP). True, but since you have access to the code, you can fix the software even if noone else will. Also a community around a product is not driven purely by the profit motive, and often this means stuff is designed 'right' rather than as fast as possible. > 3. The third point that was raised is, closed source technologies enforce > quality control as opposed to open source technologies, where the onus on > quality control in case of the latter, is more on the developer himself. I would say the quality is on the community rather than the developer. A hundred eyeballs looking at code is more likely to find bugs than a smaller team. > The reasoning I could offer was that big companies such as Yahoo ( symfony), > facebook (php), and Twitter (rails) rely on open source technologies, surely > they are aware of the above points but still choose to go with open source > rather than closed source technologies. Money is not the most important > criteria for these companies, and there definitely is a better reason why > they choose open rather than closed source technologies. There are many reasons to go with open source, and as you say, it often doesn't involve money. Some companies dont want to locked in or controlled by the development cycle of another company. In many cases the sheer size of the company would make a closed source solution prohibitively expensive. Google has thousands of servers and many data centers, so a Microsft-based solution probably would be very expensive. Google have their own engineering teams, they can support their own infrastructure quite easily. Open source has a long history that predates a lot of closed source technology. -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
Re: [symfony-users] Offbeat: open source vs closed source technologies
On 8 Jan 2010, at 13:43, Eno wrote: > On Fri, 8 Jan 2010, Lee Bolding wrote: > >> The whole IIS/windows server licensing issue is also beginning to >> disappear - if you want a well supported, enterprise grade, stable and >> scalable PHP environment, you'll likely want Zend Server - which costs >> around the same as a Windows Server license. Apache, lighttp, nginx >> etc are all free, but who actually supports them? If your server goes >> bump in the night, who you gonna call? > > We have our own support team to call :-) Yes, but a salaried employee is more expensive than raising a ticket on a case-by-case basis with the likes of Zend (or buying a support contract to begin with)-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
Re: [symfony-users] Offbeat: open source vs closed source technologies
On Fri, 8 Jan 2010, Lee Bolding wrote: > Yes, but a salaried employee is more expensive than raising a ticket on > a case-by-case basis with the likes of Zend (or buying a support > contract to begin with) OTOH, that salaried employee will often be doing more than just supporting a single product (espec. in smaller companies). There's also that age-old expression: if you want it done right, do it yourself :-) -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
Re: [symfony-users] Offbeat: open source vs closed source technologies
>>> If your server goes >>> bump in the night, who you gonna call? >> We have our own support team to call :-) > Yes, but a salaried employee is more expensive than raising a ticket on a > case-by-case basis with the likes of Zend (or buying a support contract to > begin with) Seriously, you'd call Zend/Microsoft in the middle of the night to fix your server that goes bump? On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 3:20 AM, Lee Bolding wrote: > > On 8 Jan 2010, at 13:43, Eno wrote: > >> On Fri, 8 Jan 2010, Lee Bolding wrote: >> >>> The whole IIS/windows server licensing issue is also beginning to >>> disappear - if you want a well supported, enterprise grade, stable and >>> scalable PHP environment, you'll likely want Zend Server - which costs >>> around the same as a Windows Server license. Apache, lighttp, nginx >>> etc are all free, but who actually supports them? If your server goes >>> bump in the night, who you gonna call? >> >> We have our own support team to call :-) > > Yes, but a salaried employee is more expensive than raising a ticket on a > case-by-case basis with the likes of Zend (or buying a support contract to > begin with) > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "symfony users" group. > To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en. > > > > -- Blue Horn Ltd - System Development http://bluehorn.co.nz -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
Re: [symfony-users] Offbeat: open source vs closed source technologies
On 8 Jan 2010, at 14:40, Sid Bachtiar wrote: If your server goes bump in the night, who you gonna call? > >>> We have our own support team to call :-) > >> Yes, but a salaried employee is more expensive than raising a ticket on a >> case-by-case basis with the likes of Zend (or buying a support contract to >> begin with) > > Seriously, you'd call Zend/Microsoft in the middle of the night to fix > your server that goes bump? Obviously, try a reboot or whatever first - the response time of even an hour makes it worth trying basic stuff before calling them, but if it's looking like something more serious, then yes. Besides, with a support contract that says I can (and not get charged extra for it) why the hell wouldn't I? Spending 10's of thousands of dollars on a salaried employee to do that, when Zend will already do it is crazy. Zend have employees all over the world, so it doesn't matter what time of day it is. Can you guarantee your SysAdmin will even wake up and answer the phone? or won't be out drinking or something else? As I said before - risk register. Reduce the risk whenever you can (this is why we also remove code whenever we can - less support risk, less risk of bugs etc), this approach usually doesn't cost any extra - it's just a shift in mentality.-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
Re: [symfony-users] Offbeat: open source vs closed source technologies
And are you talking about your real experience or you're just hypothesizing? On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 3:51 AM, Lee Bolding wrote: > > On 8 Jan 2010, at 14:40, Sid Bachtiar wrote: > > If your server goes > bump in the night, who you gonna call? >> We have our own support team to call :-) >> >>> Yes, but a salaried employee is more expensive than raising a ticket on a >>> case-by-case basis with the likes of Zend (or buying a support contract to >>> begin with) >> >> Seriously, you'd call Zend/Microsoft in the middle of the night to fix >> your server that goes bump? > > Obviously, try a reboot or whatever first - the response time of even an hour > makes it worth trying basic stuff before calling them, but if it's looking > like something more serious, then yes. > > Besides, with a support contract that says I can (and not get charged extra > for it) why the hell wouldn't I? > > Spending 10's of thousands of dollars on a salaried employee to do that, when > Zend will already do it is crazy. Zend have employees all over the world, so > it doesn't matter what time of day it is. Can you guarantee your SysAdmin > will even wake up and answer the phone? or won't be out drinking or something > else? > > As I said before - risk register. Reduce the risk whenever you can (this is > why we also remove code whenever we can - less support risk, less risk of > bugs etc), this approach usually doesn't cost any extra - it's just a shift > in mentality. > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "symfony users" group. > To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en. > > > > -- Blue Horn Ltd - System Development http://bluehorn.co.nz -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
Re: [symfony-users] Offbeat: open source vs closed source technologies
Hi, Am 08.01.2010 09:46, schrieb Parijat Kalia: > Hey guys, > > Just lighting up everyone's day, would like to get as many as possible > arguments on this. Me and a friend of mine, had a debate last evening, > about open source(PHP) vs closed source technologies(DOT NET).He raised > the following points: > > 1. He feels that open source is not reliable whereas closed source is. > The logic being that, once the application is developed and sold, if it > runs into some kind of a bug or an error, there is support team for > closed source technologies who are going to come and help you fix it, > whereas this is not a guarantee in open source technologies. Depends. Why do you think there are more apache servers than iis servers on the web? Because they are more reliable and cheaper, and they have a large user base that will help you out for free. Firefox vs IE? Judge for yourself. PHP vs .Net? I think it will take a long time to get a bug fixed in both of them, you will rather do a work around. Where in both products the community will help. But with .Net you can also ask MS. > > 2. Development for a successful open source technology is community > dependent, implying the choice is still on a faithful group of users, > whereas in closed source technologies it is more reliable because it is > being backed by a company (microsoft for .NET and SAP for SAP). Hmm, IMO the costs are lower in some cases. Because all major OS products are quite stable and have a very good QMS. Take for example symfony: In his post http://www.mail-archive.com/symfony-d...@googlegroups.com/msg05854.html Fabien complains that nobody pays for symfony support. [quote] Keep in mind that symfony is an Open-Source project, so everybody can contribute and scratch its itch. The core developers and all plugin developers are all working for free. Of course, Sensio sponsors the framework, of course it dedicates a lot of time and money to it, and of it can even provide extended support for all versions for companies willing to pay. And do you know how many companies, except Sensio customers, signed up for extended support in the last 2 years? None! Yep, that's right, not a single one.[/quote] This shows that all developers using symfony think it is cheaper to ask the community then to pay for support. If you want to make a choice in a real case, try to calculate the TCO. > 3. The third point that was raised is, closed source technologies > enforce quality control as opposed to open source technologies, where > the onus on quality control in case of the latter, is more on the > developer himself. See above. > The reasoning I could offer was that big companies such as Yahoo ( > symfony), facebook (php), and Twitter (rails) rely on open source > technologies, surely they are aware of the above points but still choose > to go with open source rather than closed source technologies. Money is > not the most important criteria for these companies, and there > definitely is a better reason why they choose open rather than closed > source technologies. I think most people decide for OS because * they like the idea of OS * it is cheaper * if they really need additional functionality, they can add it (by themselves or other developers) without having to wait for Godot * the product has a big community to ask Decisions to use CSs are based on * they need/want professional support * it is cheaper * the product is developed for a company that uses CSs only And then there is the middle, usage of open source with professional support, like mysql offers. > However, it is still not convincing me for I found myself agreeing to > the points my friend raised in favor of closed source technologies. Can > anyone shed a light on this? > > Thanks!!! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
Re: [symfony-users] Offbeat: open source vs closed source technologies
Am 08.01.2010 15:20, schrieb Lee Bolding: > > On 8 Jan 2010, at 13:43, Eno wrote: > >> On Fri, 8 Jan 2010, Lee Bolding wrote: >> >>> The whole IIS/windows server licensing issue is also beginning to >>> disappear - if you want a well supported, enterprise grade, stable and >>> scalable PHP environment, you'll likely want Zend Server - which costs >>> around the same as a Windows Server license. Apache, lighttp, nginx >>> etc are all free, but who actually supports them? If your server goes >>> bump in the night, who you gonna call? >> >> We have our own support team to call :-) > > Yes, but a salaried employee is more expensive than raising a ticket on a > case-by-case basis with the likes of Zend (or buying a support contract to > begin with) > The funny thing is that the Zend server consists mainly of OS software, apache, mysql and php. This shows how to earn money with OS, package OS, optimize it and sell it as a CS package with support. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
Re: [symfony-users] Offbeat: open source vs closed source technologies
On Fri, 8 Jan 2010, Lee Bolding wrote: > Spending 10's of thousands of dollars on a salaried employee to do that, > when Zend will already do it is crazy. Not necessarily. In some cases, support contracts can cost more than an employee's salary. Depends on your infrastructure and requirements, so its not as simple as you seem to imply. Zend is one particular case - what if you're not using Zend? (I probably dont want to hear that Zend is the be-all end-all so dont bother). > Zend have employees all over the > world, so it doesn't matter what time of day it is. Can you guarantee > your SysAdmin will even wake up and answer the phone? Yes. That's why they have beepers and/or cellphones. And they ARE expected to be oncall. For network issues we have a NOC too, manned 24x7. -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
Re: [symfony-users] Offbeat: open source vs closed source technologies
On 8 Jan 2010, at 15:09, Sid Bachtiar wrote: > And are you talking about your real experience or you're just hypothesizing? Real world, it's the structure we're setting up at the startup I'm currently working at. IMHO we've spent far less, and have far superior support and quality of product than we'd have had if we'd gone the route of taking on additional employees - that's less financial risk and less technical risk too. I kind of get the feeling that for a lot of people open source some has to be the solution to everything - it's not. Sometimes, being pragmatic means using commercial products or services. Sometimes it's worth letting somebody else do the expensive (both in terms of money and time) R&D and reaping the rewards by paying comparatively little for that work. If you're blinkered by open source it can lead you into all kinds of difficulties. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
Re: [symfony-users] Offbeat: open source vs closed source technologies
Wow, that's a lot of interesting insight. I like the DIY for a bug in open source vs a dead end to a bug in closed source as a really solid example. I think that helps open source win vs closed source. Although I do believe it is an extreme case. Does anyone have more insights to offer? On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 10:23 PM, Lee Bolding wrote: > > On 8 Jan 2010, at 15:09, Sid Bachtiar wrote: > > > And are you talking about your real experience or you're just > hypothesizing? > > Real world, it's the structure we're setting up at the startup I'm > currently working at. IMHO we've spent far less, and have far superior > support and quality of product than we'd have had if we'd gone the route of > taking on additional employees - that's less financial risk and less > technical risk too. > > I kind of get the feeling that for a lot of people open source some has to > be the solution to everything - it's not. Sometimes, being pragmatic means > using commercial products or services. Sometimes it's worth letting somebody > else do the expensive (both in terms of money and time) R&D and reaping the > rewards by paying comparatively little for that work. If you're blinkered by > open source it can lead you into all kinds of difficulties. > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "symfony users" group. > To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en. > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
Re: [symfony-users] Offbeat: open source vs closed source technologies
On 9 Jan 2010, at 03:32, Parijat Kalia wrote: > I like the DIY for a bug in open source vs a dead end to a bug in closed > source as a really solid example. Can you give a more concrete example? yes, theoretically that's correct - but in the PHP world, code isn't compiled. If you've paid for custom development, you should also receive the source code for anything that is compiled. How many of you would have the ability to fix a Linux kernel bug if you found one? How many people saw the critical bugs with PHP 5.2.7, and rather than fix them themselves, waited for the next release? Yes, these bug fixes can be made - but just because the source is available, that doesn't mean you have the ability to, or will pay for somebody else to fix them. Have we seen any bugfixes to PHP4 after PHP 4.4.9? Your point is valid, but only under certain circumstances - only where the end result is a compiled product, and the source is not available. And it's only then ratified when you also have the ability to fix the bug - if you don't, it makes no difference as to the availability of the source. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
Re: [symfony-users] Offbeat: open source vs closed source technologies
But you still have a chance with open source because the source is available. With closed source, if the company decided to not continue the product or not fix a bug, then that's the end of it. Another advantage is the licensing. Most open source comes with generic open source licensing that everyone understands. With closed source, unless you have a lawyer, you have no chance in understanding the full extent of what you agreeing when you use the product. This is a big deal for small to medium companies. Open source with premium support is the way to go, because you get the best of both worlds. You get open source product, and you get commercial support. On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 1:14 AM, Lee Bolding wrote: > > On 9 Jan 2010, at 03:32, Parijat Kalia wrote: > >> I like the DIY for a bug in open source vs a dead end to a bug in closed >> source as a really solid example. > > Can you give a more concrete example? yes, theoretically that's correct - but > in the PHP world, code isn't compiled. > > If you've paid for custom development, you should also receive the source > code for anything that is compiled. > > How many of you would have the ability to fix a Linux kernel bug if you found > one? > > How many people saw the critical bugs with PHP 5.2.7, and rather than fix > them themselves, waited for the next release? > > Yes, these bug fixes can be made - but just because the source is available, > that doesn't mean you have the ability to, or will pay for somebody else to > fix them. > > Have we seen any bugfixes to PHP4 after PHP 4.4.9? > > Your point is valid, but only under certain circumstances - only where the > end result is a compiled product, and the source is not available. And it's > only then ratified when you also have the ability to fix the bug - if you > don't, it makes no difference as to the availability of the source. > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "symfony users" group. > To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en. > > > > -- Blue Horn Ltd - System Development http://bluehorn.co.nz -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
Re: [symfony-users] Offbeat: open source vs closed source technologies
On Sat, 9 Jan 2010, Lee Bolding wrote: > How many people saw the critical bugs with PHP 5.2.7, and rather than fix > them themselves, waited for the next release? We build our own software from source, so yeah we would fix it ourselves. -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
Re: [symfony-users] Offbeat: open source vs closed source technologies
On 9 Jan 2010, at 14:15, Sid Bachtiar wrote: > Open source with premium support is the way to go, because you get the > best of both worlds. You get open source product, and you get > commercial support. Absolutely, and I fully agree. I also agree with your other points - the point I'm trying to put across is; as a business, you shouldn't rely on the open source community for fixing bugs or providing support that may be critical to your company - the open source community largely won't care if your business depends on the software, or if it will go out of business because of a certain bug. Your motivation to fix the bug is to stay in business, or to continue offering a quality service. The community's isn't. Paying for premium support for open source is the best way forward, this is much easier for open source projects "managed" by companies - the likes of Symfony, Drupal, MySQL, RedHat EL, Magento, SugarCRM etc. Where there is no single entity managing an open source project, it's more difficult to be confident that any company offering support for a specific open source software package has the credentials for doing so - and in many cases, they don't - which further perpetuates the counter argument. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
Re: [symfony-users] Offbeat: open source vs closed source technologies
On 9 Jan 2010, at 17:01, Eno wrote: > On Sat, 9 Jan 2010, Lee Bolding wrote: > >> How many people saw the critical bugs with PHP 5.2.7, and rather than fix >> them themselves, waited for the next release? > > We build our own software from source, so yeah we would fix it ourselves. You patched the Zend Engine yourself? Building from source isn't the same as fixing a bug in the source code. Unless you made modifications to the source code itself, regardless of whether you obtained a prebuilt binary from yum, apt etc or compiled the source yourself, it would still contain the same security errors (hence the reason 5.2.7 was removed from the Zend site within a week or so of it's release) That is, ofcourse, unless you configure with --disable-bugs ;)-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en.
