RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
At 01:52 PM 10/16/2003 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ARGGGH! Why can't you just say "I misspoke. Ops?" Instead you've chosen to say, "temporarily a WR" Everyone on the planet knew that course was short. Do you need to take reading lessons? I made the correction that his SECOND effort was temporarily a WR, (and even adjusting for how short, the time would have been a WR). As for knowing that the course was short, and having watched the race on TV, for some weird reason, the all-knowing announcers failed to note that the course was short. Thank god you're at Berkeley where you can't do damage and not at the FBI. You'd still be claiming Richard Jewell was the bomber at the 1996 Olympics!!! So you've found that I slipped up on a factual issue (vs. the numerous errors that me and others have found in your posts)--somehow that erodes all of my credibility? Not that you have ever admitted any errors, while I have freely admitted mine in the past. That's the pot calling the kettle black BTW, I'm not at Berkeley, I only graduated from there. I'm busy mucking up your energy policies in Davis RMc malmo > From: Richard McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: 2003/10/16 Thu PM 12:15:34 CDT > To: "malmo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > CC: "'alan tobin'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ > Zakharova win at Chicago > > I misspoke. I confused Salazar's 1980 and 1981 marks at NYC. It was his > second marathon that was under the old WR, albeit temporarily due to course > measurement error. > > RMc > > At 09:15 PM 10/15/2003 -0400, malmo wrote: > >Perhaps you misspoke, or perhaps this is yet another of your > >embellishments? Salazar's debut was never under the WR. > > > >We're all track fans here and you have little chance of getting any your > >numerous whoppers past us. Why keep trying? I just don't get it? > > > >malmo > > > > > > > >-Original Message- > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard McCann > >Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 2:15 PM > >To: alan tobin > >Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ > >Zakharova win at Chicago > > > > >The record KK came within 20 seconds of wasn't 2 weeks old but 9 years > > >old. It should also be known that KK isn't off my suspicion list > >either. > > > >So now a 9 year old record is considered weak, and it's OK for a debut > >mark > >to be near that record? Rutto's debut was 8 seconds off a 4 year old > >record mark--that doesnt' seem too out of line. And remember that > >Salazar's debut was momentarily under the old WR, and even with the time > > > >correction was extremely close. > > > >RMc > > > > >I think we should adopt the cycling federations hematocrit test. If > > >you're > > >over 50 then you're out for "health reasons" > > > >The ICU is refusing to join the WADA. I don't know the circumstances, > >but > >perhaps someone can fill us in on the reasons. I know that cycling may > >be > >dumped from the Olympics for this. > > > >RMc > > > > > > >Alan > >
RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
I misspoke. I confused Salazar's 1980 and 1981 marks at NYC. It was his second marathon that was under the old WR, albeit temporarily due to course measurement error. RMc At 09:15 PM 10/15/2003 -0400, malmo wrote: Perhaps you misspoke, or perhaps this is yet another of your embellishments? Salazar's debut was never under the WR. We're all track fans here and you have little chance of getting any your numerous whoppers past us. Why keep trying? I just don't get it? malmo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard McCann Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 2:15 PM To: alan tobin Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago >The record KK came within 20 seconds of wasn't 2 weeks old but 9 years >old. It should also be known that KK isn't off my suspicion list either. So now a 9 year old record is considered weak, and it's OK for a debut mark to be near that record? Rutto's debut was 8 seconds off a 4 year old record mark--that doesnt' seem too out of line. And remember that Salazar's debut was momentarily under the old WR, and even with the time correction was extremely close. RMc >I think we should adopt the cycling federations hematocrit test. If >you're >over 50 then you're out for "health reasons" The ICU is refusing to join the WADA. I don't know the circumstances, but perhaps someone can fill us in on the reasons. I know that cycling may be dumped from the Olympics for this. RMc >Alan
RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
Sal's 1st try was 2:09:41 @ NYC World Record was 2:08:33 -- - Original Message - DATE: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:15:08 From: "malmo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'Richard McCann'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,"'alan tobin'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Perhaps you misspoke, or perhaps this is yet another of your >embellishments? Salazar's debut was never under the WR. > >We're all track fans here and you have little chance of getting any your >numerous whoppers past us. Why keep trying? I just don't get it? > >malmo > > > >-Original Message- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard McCann >Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 2:15 PM >To: alan tobin >Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ >Zakharova win at Chicago > >>The record KK came within 20 seconds of wasn't 2 weeks old but 9 years >>old. It should also be known that KK isn't off my suspicion list >either. > >So now a 9 year old record is considered weak, and it's OK for a debut >mark >to be near that record? Rutto's debut was 8 seconds off a 4 year old >record mark--that doesnt' seem too out of line. And remember that >Salazar's debut was momentarily under the old WR, and even with the time > >correction was extremely close. > >RMc > >>I think we should adopt the cycling federations hematocrit test. If >>you're >>over 50 then you're out for "health reasons" > >The ICU is refusing to join the WADA. I don't know the circumstances, >but >perhaps someone can fill us in on the reasons. I know that cycling may >be >dumped from the Olympics for this. > >RMc > > >>Alan > > > > Enter for a chance to win one year's supply of allergy relief! http://r.hotbot.com/r/lmt_clrtn/http://mocda3.com/1/c/563632/125699/307982/307982
RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
Perhaps you misspoke, or perhaps this is yet another of your embellishments? Salazar's debut was never under the WR. We're all track fans here and you have little chance of getting any your numerous whoppers past us. Why keep trying? I just don't get it? malmo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard McCann Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 2:15 PM To: alan tobin Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago >The record KK came within 20 seconds of wasn't 2 weeks old but 9 years >old. It should also be known that KK isn't off my suspicion list either. So now a 9 year old record is considered weak, and it's OK for a debut mark to be near that record? Rutto's debut was 8 seconds off a 4 year old record mark--that doesnt' seem too out of line. And remember that Salazar's debut was momentarily under the old WR, and even with the time correction was extremely close. RMc >I think we should adopt the cycling federations hematocrit test. If >you're >over 50 then you're out for "health reasons" The ICU is refusing to join the WADA. I don't know the circumstances, but perhaps someone can fill us in on the reasons. I know that cycling may be dumped from the Olympics for this. RMc >Alan
Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
I haven't read all of the messages yet and this point may have been made but didn't Geb just miss the 10k record by 7 secs? I'd say he's close enough to his peak. Steve S. - Original Message - From: alan tobin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 1:04 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago > "For example, how many 10k WR holders (Gebreselassie) or even 10k WC/Oly > medalists (Tergat) have run the men's marathon at or near the peak of their > career?" > > Are you making the assumption that Geb and Tergat are at the peak of the > their careers? I'd have to say that both were at their peak when they were > setting 5k/10k WRs and winning Olympic golds/silvers (1995-2000). I think > it's a pretty safe assumption that today there are more runners waiting > until after their peak track 10k/5k fitness to run a marathon than 20-30 > years ago. > > Alan > > >From: Richard McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: "alan tobin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova > >win at Chicago > >Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:40:56 -0700 > >MIME-Version: 1.0 > >Received: from velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us ([168.150.193.10]) by > >mc5-f28.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Tue, 14 Oct 2003 > >09:42:57 -0700 > >Received: from user-dp1el8yc6y.cal.net (dcn235-28.dcn.davis.ca.us > >[168.150.235.28])by velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us (8.11.4/8.11.4/Omsoft) with > >ESMTP id h9EGgog19152;Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:42:50 -0700 (PDT) > >X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jF9Td9/1DyHr12VC9A5kd3c > >Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 > >In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Oct 2003 16:42:58.0257 (UTC) > >FILETIME=[39590C10:01C39272] > > > >I believe that you CAN make comparisons across distances. What's > >interesting is that in the women's case, the marathon mark is now much > >STRONGER than the other marks. How do you explain that discrepancy? Over > >time, the longer distances have tended to get faster relative to the > >shorter distances as training volume increased and the number of top line > >athletes competing in the event has increased. For example, how many 10k > >WR holders (Gebreselassie) or even 10k WC/Oly medalists (Tergat) have run > >the men's marathon at or near the peak of their career? Salazar is the > >only one that I can think of. (Zatopek's triple doesn't count, but even > >that was a WR, showing how weak the mark was.) What's interesting about > >the women is that they've had many more top elites at shorter distances run > >the marathon, in part because the 5k and 10k were not Olympic distances > >until 1992. > > > >As for the drop in marathon from 2:08:34 to 2:08:18, remember that the 10k > >record only fell from 27:39 to 27:22 in the same period, yet the 10k record > >is now 26:22. The marathon record should be 2:04:06 if it is to improve an > >equivalent amount. That's in line with my previous assessment. > > > >Your assessment is purely subjective as to whether a 2:05:50 marathon > >should be considered on par with a 26:30 10k. You then leap to unfounded > >conclusions based on your purely subjective assessment. I offer a counter > >assessment which is backed by some quantitative analysis. I'm probably not > >on the mark, as most quantitative assessments of the real world require > >oversimplification. However, those types of analyses give a good > >indication of the general direction--much better than anecdotal subjective > >assessments. > > > >As for record bursts that have occurred, it's not always evident until > >after the fact as to why those bursts have occurred. If I was going to > >offer an explanation about the current burst it would be that African > >runners began to enter the distance running events in large droves in the > >1980s. They ran along with the Europeans and Americans with their > >preexisting notions about running limits until the early 1990s. Then the > >Africans began to compete solely with each other and discovered that they > >could push beyond those limits, due in part because their own lifestyles > >are so harsh (much harder than even 19th century Europe and America), and > >in part because the added nutriti
Re: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
Didn't Salazar run 2:09 plus in his debut and then go 2:08 plus the next year? Steve S. - Original Message - From: Richard McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: alan tobin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 2:14 PM Subject: RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago > So now a 9 year old record is considered weak, and it's OK for a debut mark > to be near that record? Rutto's debut was 8 seconds off a 4 year old > record mark--that doesnt' seem too out of line. And remember that > Salazar's debut was momentarily under the old WR, and even with the time > correction was extremely close. > > RMc > > >I think we should adopt the cycling federations hematocrit test. If you're > >over 50 then you're out for "health reasons" > > The ICU is refusing to join the WADA. I don't know the circumstances, but > perhaps someone can fill us in on the reasons. I know that cycling may be > dumped from the Olympics for this. > > RMc > > > >Alan > >
RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
Alan wrote: >Trumping the trump card... >It should also be known that KK isn't off my suspicion list either. I'm >suspicious of any current or former WR holder or Olympic/World gold >medalist. You can damn me for that opinion all you want but it is my opinion >and it won't change until WADA, USADA or any other anti-doping agency does a >better job which isn't likely to happen. Well, Alan - the only thing that statement "damns you" to is utter irrelevancy. At this point, you're not posting content. You're posting a repetitive screed. And you leave no basis for dialogue, except for others to accept your premise. So we can all duly note that Alan, in the absence of any data, is "suspicious of any current or former WR holder or Olympic/World gold medalist". Which adds as much information to my life as knowing that Anne Coulter has come up with a new way to label liberals as evil. Since we all know your point of view, can you just quit posting it until you have more than your gut feelings to substantiate it? Phil
RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
At 06:01 PM 10/15/2003 +, alan tobin wrote: To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago Trumping the trump card... The record KK came within 20 seconds of wasn't 2 weeks old but 9 years old. It should also be known that KK isn't off my suspicion list either. So now a 9 year old record is considered weak, and it's OK for a debut mark to be near that record? Rutto's debut was 8 seconds off a 4 year old record mark--that doesnt' seem too out of line. And remember that Salazar's debut was momentarily under the old WR, and even with the time correction was extremely close. RMc I think we should adopt the cycling federations hematocrit test. If you're over 50 then you're out for "health reasons" The ICU is refusing to join the WADA. I don't know the circumstances, but perhaps someone can fill us in on the reasons. I know that cycling may be dumped from the Olympics for this. RMc Alan
RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
H...apparently I've been trumped. I'll go back to my cave now. Alan From: "Post, Marty" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: 'alan tobin' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 10:57:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from exchange3.rodale.com ([206.245.129.44]) by mc9-f22.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Wed, 15 Oct 2003 07:59:10 -0700 Received: by exchange3.rodale.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19)id <46CBSSFG>; Wed, 15 Oct 2003 10:57:38 -0400 X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jGNXRvdeLQnY6cs8weDh8OP Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Oct 2003 14:59:11.0678 (UTC) FILETIME=[E46E3DE0:01C3932C] Rutto's debut of 2:05:50 was 55 seconds off the current world record. Khannouchi's debut of 2:07:10 - also a debut world record at the time -- was 20 seconds off the then world record. -Original Message- From: alan tobin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 9:57 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago "running a near a WR in one event implies drug use. He's going to have to use a completely different basis for coming to that conclusion." It's not just running near a WR that implies drug use. It's when numerous people run near a WR that bothers me. It's when a marathon VIRGIN runs near a WR that bothers me. If KK runs a WR it wouldn't strike me as mysterious at all. He's been in the game for a while. He didn't debut at 2:05. The problem I have is that 7 of the top 10 marathon times in HISTORY have been run in 2002 or 2003. From 1988 to 1998 no one went under Dinsamo's record. Since then there's been 25 performances by 21 runners under that record. You will not find such a statistic during any other past decade. When records (be it WR or debut WR which was just broken in Paris by Wilson Onsare before Rutto did his Chicago dance) are broken every year in the same event then I question every one of those results. The state of the sport leads to such uncredibility. Alan >From: Richard McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >CC: "alan tobin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ >Zakharova win at Chicago >Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:08:10 -0700 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us ([168.150.193.10]) by >mc11-f20.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Tue, 14 Oct >2003 12:14:01 -0700 >Received: from user-dp1el8yc6y.cal.net (dcn235-28.dcn.davis.ca.us >[168.150.235.28])by velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us (8.11.4/8.11.4/Omsoft) with >ESMTP id h9EJDqg05916;Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:13:52 -0700 (PDT) >X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jGQlXSka243lVN6IUY/pnVw >Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 >In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >.net> >Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Oct 2003 19:14:01.0947 (UTC) >FILETIME=[53BA62B0:01C39287] > >I have problems with the statistical methods used to develop most of these >tables. Even the comparison method I used, which is similar to Hoffman's >is a bit too simplistic. However, the correct method is rather data >intensive. I would want to use the top 100 marks over a series of years to >estimate the underlying variance in performances. This would be the means >of identifying which performances are the greatest "outlier" vs. other >performances. The one underlying assumption is that the same proportion of >the population competes in each event so that the probability distributions >are comparable among events. > >If we're going to rely solely on subjective comparisons, then Tobin's >evaluation is no more valid than mine and he has absolutely no basis for >leaping to a conclusion that running a near a WR in one event implies drug >use. He's going to have to use a completely different basis for coming to >that conclusion. > >On the other hand, I'm not arguing that my comparison is subjective per se, >but rather can be recreated by anyone else in a step by step fashion that >is readily transparent. If they want to change the underlying assumptions, >they are free to do so and to come to their own conclusions. Such >transparency is the fundamental basis of "objective" comparisons. >Subjective comparisons are opaq
Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
Here are some thoughts from Arthur Lydiard. There was some related discussion at the Chicago Marathon a couple years ago, because of a comment by Frank Shorter that elite American distance runners wait too long to run a marathon. His comment was a little more critical than this, but I don't want to paraphrase and take a chance of misrepresenting what he meant. But, I think it was obvious that Shorter believes athletes should be running the marathon at earlier ages. Because of this, I posed the following two questions to Mr. Lydiard. The "elite marathoner" referred to here in the second question was Paul Evans. Sorry for the shameless plug. Chicago Athlete Magazine Speedplay column March 2003 Q&A with the god of jog http://www.chicagoaa.com/features/speedplaylydiard03.html# Q: There was some discussion at the LaSalle Bank Chicago Marathon two years ago regarding when an elite 5000-10,000 track competitor should run a marathon. Is there a best age when an elite distance runner should race at the marathon distance? Should they mix high-level track meetings with marathon racing? Many American distance runners focus just on the track, and then "move up" to the marathon and never or seldom ever race on the track again. A: Your aerobic development is a gradual thing. It takes years and years of marathon-type training to develop your aerobic capacity to the fullest. That is why, when in 1984 Carlos Lopes was running a marathon for the Olympics, people said that he was too old. I said that it would be to his advantage because he had developed fine aerobic base through years and years of training. Another good example is Lorraine Moller. In 1992 people thought she was too old, in fact, her shoe company dropped her contract because they thought she was too old. She won the bronze medal. Now, that does not mean you should wait till the very last moment to run a marathon. I found out years ago, and this is the fundamental concept of my training program, that when I started to train for the marathon, my track time got better. This is because of all the long running I started to do. Barry Magee is a bronze medallist in the Olympic marathon in 1960 and he ran a couple of seconds off the world record for the three-mile run in 1961. In fact, he became a better track runner after he started running marathons. You see the same thing with the English girl who set the world record for the marathon (Paula Radcliffe). She started running marathons last spring and she had the best track season of her life this past summer. Its just a matter of balancing your training. Q: One elite marathoner said to me that he thinks there might only be about five good marathons in the body. Is there a limit an elite athlete should race at the marathon distance? A: Thats a lot of rubbish. You can run more than that. Thats the question of recovery. With so much money involved in marathon running today, some elite runners have run a marathon, pick up a check and move on to the next marathon to get paid again without adequate recovery. That shortened their career. But if youre careful about recovery, you can keep on running marathons and keep improving. Matthew Harber wrote: > I'll ask this question acknowlegding that I haven't spent the time doing > the research: > > It seems that more of the younger African runners are focusing on the > marathon earlier in their careers and perhaps this has helped lead to an > abundance of fast debuts. The question: is it more common now for the > young superbly talented africans to focus on the marathon at a younger > age and thus develop quicker into the marathon then say ten years ago? > > The point was brought up last week that these trends and 'bursts' in > performance take decades to build so it is likely that this was > recognized several years ago and what we are witnessing now is the > product of better marathon development for young runners. > > matt > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of alan tobin > Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 9:57 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ > Zakharova win at Chicago > > "running a near a WR in one event implies drug use. He's going to have > to > use a completely different basis for coming to that conclusion." > > It's not just running near a WR that implies drug use. It's when > numerous > people run near a WR that bothers me. It's when a marathon VIRGIN runs > near > a WR that bothers me. If KK runs a WR it wouldn't strike me as > mysterious at > all. He's been in the game for a while. He didn't debut at 2:05. The > problem > I have is that 7 of the top 10 marathon times in HISTORY
RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
Trumping the trump card... The record KK came within 20 seconds of wasn't 2 weeks old but 9 years old. It should also be known that KK isn't off my suspicion list either. I'm suspicious of any current or former WR holder or Olympic/World gold medalist. You can damn me for that opinion all you want but it is my opinion and it won't change until WADA, USADA or any other anti-doping agency does a better job which isn't likely to happen. I think we should adopt the cycling federations hematocrit test. If you're over 50 then you're out for "health reasons" Alan From: "Post, Marty" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: 'alan tobin' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 10:57:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from exchange3.rodale.com ([206.245.129.44]) by mc9-f22.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Wed, 15 Oct 2003 07:59:10 -0700 Received: by exchange3.rodale.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19)id <46CBSSFG>; Wed, 15 Oct 2003 10:57:38 -0400 X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jGNXRvdeLQnY6cs8weDh8OP Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Oct 2003 14:59:11.0678 (UTC) FILETIME=[E46E3DE0:01C3932C] Rutto's debut of 2:05:50 was 55 seconds off the current world record. Khannouchi's debut of 2:07:10 - also a debut world record at the time -- was 20 seconds off the then world record. -Original Message- From: alan tobin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 9:57 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago "running a near a WR in one event implies drug use. He's going to have to use a completely different basis for coming to that conclusion." It's not just running near a WR that implies drug use. It's when numerous people run near a WR that bothers me. It's when a marathon VIRGIN runs near a WR that bothers me. If KK runs a WR it wouldn't strike me as mysterious at all. He's been in the game for a while. He didn't debut at 2:05. The problem I have is that 7 of the top 10 marathon times in HISTORY have been run in 2002 or 2003. From 1988 to 1998 no one went under Dinsamo's record. Since then there's been 25 performances by 21 runners under that record. You will not find such a statistic during any other past decade. When records (be it WR or debut WR which was just broken in Paris by Wilson Onsare before Rutto did his Chicago dance) are broken every year in the same event then I question every one of those results. The state of the sport leads to such uncredibility. Alan >From: Richard McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >CC: "alan tobin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ >Zakharova win at Chicago >Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:08:10 -0700 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us ([168.150.193.10]) by >mc11-f20.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Tue, 14 Oct >2003 12:14:01 -0700 >Received: from user-dp1el8yc6y.cal.net (dcn235-28.dcn.davis.ca.us >[168.150.235.28])by velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us (8.11.4/8.11.4/Omsoft) with >ESMTP id h9EJDqg05916;Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:13:52 -0700 (PDT) >X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jGQlXSka243lVN6IUY/pnVw >Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 >In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >.net> >Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Oct 2003 19:14:01.0947 (UTC) >FILETIME=[53BA62B0:01C39287] > >I have problems with the statistical methods used to develop most of these >tables. Even the comparison method I used, which is similar to Hoffman's >is a bit too simplistic. However, the correct method is rather data >intensive. I would want to use the top 100 marks over a series of years to >estimate the underlying variance in performances. This would be the means >of identifying which performances are the greatest "outlier" vs. other >performances. The one underlying assumption is that the same proportion of >the population competes in each event so that the probability distributions >are comparable among events. > >If we're going to rely solely on subjective comparisons, then Tobin's >evaluation is no more valid than mine and he has absolutely no basis for >leaping to a conclusion that running a near a WR in one event implies drug >use. He's going to have to use a
Re: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
And I argue that the marathon WR has been comparatively weak to other WRs, even with Dinsamo's mark in 1988. Even though would you prefer to do so, you cannot look at the progression in a single event in isolation. You are assuming that the WRs at any one point in time are always equivalent. So, for example, you are assuming that all of the WRs in 1968 were equivalent to Beamon's LJ, or that all of the current WRs are equivalent to Johnson's 200. And I think that even you recognize the absurdity of that assumption. Once you acknowledge that not all of the WRs are equivalent, then seeing rapid mass progression in an event that is recognized as relatively weak should not be surprising. As to your argument that having so many push under the record is unusual is that the number of elite marathons has increasing several fold since the mid-late 1980s. Before then, the only elite marathons outside of the once every 4 year Olympics were the Commonwealth Games, Boston, Fukuoka, and a once a year European marathon that seemed to move location. Now the opportunities to face top competition that requires fast times to win are manifest. Think of how many runners were under Bikilia's 2:12:11 1964 WR from then until 1972. I wouldn't be surprised that it was almost equivalent, and certainly after you adjust for the many fewer opportunities to race then. I am a doubter of the 1993 Chinese women's performances (the 1997 performances are more in line with historic events). But I would not be a doubter if those records had been either done by an individual spread out over a longer period of time, without qualifying rounds at high speeds. (I read last night that Wang also ran faster than the 3k WR in the last 3k of her 10k WR, 8:17.7!), or there had been a single mass finish race, instead of having 2 under the 10k WR, two days later 2 more under the 1500 WR, then 4 under the 3k WR in the semis!, then 5 under the 3k WR in the finals, all in the space of 6 days, with many of the same athletes breaking multiple WRs! And to top it, none of these athletes ever again approaching these performances. At least in the marathon, many of these athletes repeat there performances at a later date. Also, given that the 5k/10k records dropped so much, with so many runners now under the previous standards, from 1993-1998 (and the records still stand), why didn't the marathon marks drop equivalently during that same period if drugs were the reason? Seems like those drugs should have had the same effect during the same period, but that's not what occurred. And finally, it should not be surprising to see the record broken every year when it is broken by a relatively small increment each time. Progressing for 2:06:50 to 2:05:42 in 1999 is the equivalent of a 16 second improvement in the 10k--that's a relatively small improvement historically, especially over 11 years. As for the record being broken every year, I see improvements in 1999, 2002 and 2003. Improvement in the debut record only reflects that better athletes are deciding to move up in the event. It's not unusual to see debuts in the 5k and 10k near the WR as well. The marathon is now becoming more like the other events as training volumes increase. You need to eliminate conclusively the many other explanations before you leap to your conclusion, which has no actual evidence whatsoever. (I point I make repeatedly on this list.) RMc At 01:57 PM 10/15/2003 +, alan tobin wrote: "running a near a WR in one event implies drug use. He's going to have to use a completely different basis for coming to that conclusion." It's not just running near a WR that implies drug use. It's when numerous people run near a WR that bothers me. It's when a marathon VIRGIN runs near a WR that bothers me. If KK runs a WR it wouldn't strike me as mysterious at all. He's been in the game for a while. He didn't debut at 2:05. The problem I have is that 7 of the top 10 marathon times in HISTORY have been run in 2002 or 2003. From 1988 to 1998 no one went under Dinsamo's record. Since then there's been 25 performances by 21 runners under that record. You will not find such a statistic during any other past decade. When records (be it WR or debut WR which was just broken in Paris by Wilson Onsare before Rutto did his Chicago dance) are broken every year in the same event then I question every one of those results. The state of the sport leads to such uncredibility. Alan From: Richard McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> CC: "alan tobin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:08:10 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from velocipede.dcn.davis.ca
RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
I don't know the answer to that question, but, since we've been over the issue of weight/height of outstanding athletes, perhaps we should go back to the stats on age of record holders, which have been discussed here before. My recollection is that on average the best performers in most events are early to mid twenties. The point has been made before that waiting to move up is not necessarily a good idea. It often seems that distance runners decide to move up when they start to lose competitiveness in shorter events. Is there any reason (other than evidence of some notable outliers like Carlos Lopes) to believe that they are not also past prime--and out of time to develop the conditioning--for an event as relatively fast as the marathon has become? Bill Bahnfleth At 10:59 AM 10/15/2003 -0400, Matthew Harber wrote: I'll ask this question acknowlegding that I haven't spent the time doing the research: It seems that more of the younger African runners are focusing on the marathon earlier in their careers and perhaps this has helped lead to an abundance of fast debuts. The question: is it more common now for the young superbly talented africans to focus on the marathon at a younger age and thus develop quicker into the marathon then say ten years ago? The point was brought up last week that these trends and 'bursts' in performance take decades to build so it is likely that this was recognized several years ago and what we are witnessing now is the product of better marathon development for young runners. matt -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of alan tobin Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 9:57 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago "running a near a WR in one event implies drug use. He's going to have to use a completely different basis for coming to that conclusion." It's not just running near a WR that implies drug use. It's when numerous people run near a WR that bothers me. It's when a marathon VIRGIN runs near a WR that bothers me. If KK runs a WR it wouldn't strike me as mysterious at all. He's been in the game for a while. He didn't debut at 2:05. The problem I have is that 7 of the top 10 marathon times in HISTORY have been run in 2002 or 2003. From 1988 to 1998 no one went under Dinsamo's record. Since then there's been 25 performances by 21 runners under that record. You will not find such a statistic during any other past decade. When records (be it WR or debut WR which was just broken in Paris by Wilson Onsare before Rutto did his Chicago dance) are broken every year in the same event then I question every one of those results. The state of the sport leads to such uncredibility. Alan >From: Richard McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >CC: "alan tobin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ >Zakharova win at Chicago >Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:08:10 -0700 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us ([168.150.193.10]) by >mc11-f20.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Tue, 14 Oct >2003 12:14:01 -0700 >Received: from user-dp1el8yc6y.cal.net (dcn235-28.dcn.davis.ca.us >[168.150.235.28])by velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us (8.11.4/8.11.4/Omsoft) with >ESMTP id h9EJDqg05916;Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:13:52 -0700 (PDT) >X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jGQlXSka243lVN6IUY/pnVw >Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 >In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >.net> >Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Oct 2003 19:14:01.0947 (UTC) >FILETIME=[53BA62B0:01C39287] > >I have problems with the statistical methods used to develop most of >these >tables. Even the comparison method I used, which is similar to Hoffman's >is a bit too simplistic. However, the correct method is rather data >intensive. I would want to use the top 100 marks over a series of years to >estimate the underlying variance in performances. This would be the means >of identifying which performances are the greatest "outlier" vs. other >performances. The one underlying assumption is that the same proportion of >the population competes in each event so that the probability distributions >are comparable among events. > >If we're going to rely solely on subjective comparisons, then Tobin's >evaluation is no more valid than mine and he has absolutely no basis for >leaping to a conclusion that running a near a WR in one event implies drug >use. He's going to have to use a completely different basis for coming to >that c
RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
I'll ask this question acknowlegding that I haven't spent the time doing the research: It seems that more of the younger African runners are focusing on the marathon earlier in their careers and perhaps this has helped lead to an abundance of fast debuts. The question: is it more common now for the young superbly talented africans to focus on the marathon at a younger age and thus develop quicker into the marathon then say ten years ago? The point was brought up last week that these trends and 'bursts' in performance take decades to build so it is likely that this was recognized several years ago and what we are witnessing now is the product of better marathon development for young runners. matt -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of alan tobin Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 9:57 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago "running a near a WR in one event implies drug use. He's going to have to use a completely different basis for coming to that conclusion." It's not just running near a WR that implies drug use. It's when numerous people run near a WR that bothers me. It's when a marathon VIRGIN runs near a WR that bothers me. If KK runs a WR it wouldn't strike me as mysterious at all. He's been in the game for a while. He didn't debut at 2:05. The problem I have is that 7 of the top 10 marathon times in HISTORY have been run in 2002 or 2003. From 1988 to 1998 no one went under Dinsamo's record. Since then there's been 25 performances by 21 runners under that record. You will not find such a statistic during any other past decade. When records (be it WR or debut WR which was just broken in Paris by Wilson Onsare before Rutto did his Chicago dance) are broken every year in the same event then I question every one of those results. The state of the sport leads to such uncredibility. Alan >From: Richard McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >CC: "alan tobin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ >Zakharova win at Chicago >Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:08:10 -0700 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us ([168.150.193.10]) by >mc11-f20.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Tue, 14 Oct >2003 12:14:01 -0700 >Received: from user-dp1el8yc6y.cal.net (dcn235-28.dcn.davis.ca.us >[168.150.235.28])by velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us (8.11.4/8.11.4/Omsoft) with >ESMTP id h9EJDqg05916;Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:13:52 -0700 (PDT) >X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jGQlXSka243lVN6IUY/pnVw >Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 >In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >.net> >Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Oct 2003 19:14:01.0947 (UTC) >FILETIME=[53BA62B0:01C39287] > >I have problems with the statistical methods used to develop most of >these >tables. Even the comparison method I used, which is similar to Hoffman's >is a bit too simplistic. However, the correct method is rather data >intensive. I would want to use the top 100 marks over a series of years to >estimate the underlying variance in performances. This would be the means >of identifying which performances are the greatest "outlier" vs. other >performances. The one underlying assumption is that the same proportion of >the population competes in each event so that the probability distributions >are comparable among events. > >If we're going to rely solely on subjective comparisons, then Tobin's >evaluation is no more valid than mine and he has absolutely no basis for >leaping to a conclusion that running a near a WR in one event implies drug >use. He's going to have to use a completely different basis for coming to >that conclusion. > >On the other hand, I'm not arguing that my comparison is subjective per >se, >but rather can be recreated by anyone else in a step by step fashion that >is readily transparent. If they want to change the underlying assumptions, >they are free to do so and to come to their own conclusions. Such >transparency is the fundamental basis of "objective" comparisons. >Subjective comparisons are opaque and cannot be recreated. > >RMc > >At 01:23 PM 10/14/2003 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >>ALL of these "comparison tables" are fundamentally flawed, as >>subjectivity >>is the common denominator. Don't believe me, just compare the projected >>equivalents from the various tables: Purdy, Coe and Martin, Portuguese, >>Mercier (I'm missing a few) > _ See when your friends are online with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com
Re: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
"running a near a WR in one event implies drug use. He's going to have to use a completely different basis for coming to that conclusion." It's not just running near a WR that implies drug use. It's when numerous people run near a WR that bothers me. It's when a marathon VIRGIN runs near a WR that bothers me. If KK runs a WR it wouldn't strike me as mysterious at all. He's been in the game for a while. He didn't debut at 2:05. The problem I have is that 7 of the top 10 marathon times in HISTORY have been run in 2002 or 2003. From 1988 to 1998 no one went under Dinsamo's record. Since then there's been 25 performances by 21 runners under that record. You will not find such a statistic during any other past decade. When records (be it WR or debut WR which was just broken in Paris by Wilson Onsare before Rutto did his Chicago dance) are broken every year in the same event then I question every one of those results. The state of the sport leads to such uncredibility. Alan From: Richard McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> CC: "alan tobin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:08:10 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us ([168.150.193.10]) by mc11-f20.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:14:01 -0700 Received: from user-dp1el8yc6y.cal.net (dcn235-28.dcn.davis.ca.us [168.150.235.28])by velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us (8.11.4/8.11.4/Omsoft) with ESMTP id h9EJDqg05916;Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:13:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jGQlXSka243lVN6IUY/pnVw Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] .net> Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Oct 2003 19:14:01.0947 (UTC) FILETIME=[53BA62B0:01C39287] I have problems with the statistical methods used to develop most of these tables. Even the comparison method I used, which is similar to Hoffman's is a bit too simplistic. However, the correct method is rather data intensive. I would want to use the top 100 marks over a series of years to estimate the underlying variance in performances. This would be the means of identifying which performances are the greatest "outlier" vs. other performances. The one underlying assumption is that the same proportion of the population competes in each event so that the probability distributions are comparable among events. If we're going to rely solely on subjective comparisons, then Tobin's evaluation is no more valid than mine and he has absolutely no basis for leaping to a conclusion that running a near a WR in one event implies drug use. He's going to have to use a completely different basis for coming to that conclusion. On the other hand, I'm not arguing that my comparison is subjective per se, but rather can be recreated by anyone else in a step by step fashion that is readily transparent. If they want to change the underlying assumptions, they are free to do so and to come to their own conclusions. Such transparency is the fundamental basis of "objective" comparisons. Subjective comparisons are opaque and cannot be recreated. RMc At 01:23 PM 10/14/2003 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ALL of these "comparison tables" are fundamentally flawed, as subjectivity is the common denominator. Don't believe me, just compare the projected equivalents from the various tables: Purdy, Coe and Martin, Portuguese, Mercier (I'm missing a few) _ See when your friends are online with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com
Re: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
I have problems with the statistical methods used to develop most of these tables. Even the comparison method I used, which is similar to Hoffman's is a bit too simplistic. However, the correct method is rather data intensive. I would want to use the top 100 marks over a series of years to estimate the underlying variance in performances. This would be the means of identifying which performances are the greatest "outlier" vs. other performances. The one underlying assumption is that the same proportion of the population competes in each event so that the probability distributions are comparable among events. If we're going to rely solely on subjective comparisons, then Tobin's evaluation is no more valid than mine and he has absolutely no basis for leaping to a conclusion that running a near a WR in one event implies drug use. He's going to have to use a completely different basis for coming to that conclusion. On the other hand, I'm not arguing that my comparison is subjective per se, but rather can be recreated by anyone else in a step by step fashion that is readily transparent. If they want to change the underlying assumptions, they are free to do so and to come to their own conclusions. Such transparency is the fundamental basis of "objective" comparisons. Subjective comparisons are opaque and cannot be recreated. RMc At 01:23 PM 10/14/2003 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ALL of these "comparison tables" are fundamentally flawed, as subjectivity is the common denominator. Don't believe me, just compare the projected equivalents from the various tables: Purdy, Coe and Martin, Portuguese, Mercier (I'm missing a few)
Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
It appears that you're conceding my point that top 10k runners are also running the marathon now. I didn't make a broad generalization about everyone, rather that enough individuals are doing this that the overall competitive level has been raised so that the marathon record is beginning to catch up with the other records. RMc At 05:57 PM 10/14/2003 +, alan tobin wrote: How about KK? Sure he hasn't touched a track race in a long while, but I'm sure he could take down a few of his PRs if he chose to do so. Alan From: Richard McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "alan tobin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 05:04 PM 10/14/2003 +, alan tobin wrote.. "For example, how many 10k WR holders (Gebreselassie) or even 10k WC/Oly medalists (Tergat) have run the men's marathon at or near the peak of their career?" Are you making the assumption that Geb and Tergat are at the peak of the their careers? I'd have to say that both were at their peak when they were setting 5k/10k WRs and winning Olympic golds/silvers (1995-2000). I think it's a pretty safe assumption that today there are more runners waiting until after their peak track 10k/5k fitness to run a marathon than 20-30 years ago. Gebreselassie won the 10k WC silver and ran 26:29, the fastest time in the world this year. He might be just slightly slower than before, but he seems to be pretty damn close to his peak. Tergat immediately jumped from an Oly silver to running marathons in 2:07. Top marathoners are younger, not older, than they were 20-30 years ago relative to their performance peaks. Think of how unusual Salazar was, yet many of the top Africans are about his age now. (BTW, Shorter was the other top 10k runner who also marathoned in the past at his peak.) RMc
Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
At 05:04 PM 10/14/2003 +, alan tobin wrote.. "For example, how many 10k WR holders (Gebreselassie) or even 10k WC/Oly medalists (Tergat) have run the men's marathon at or near the peak of their career?" Are you making the assumption that Geb and Tergat are at the peak of the their careers? I'd have to say that both were at their peak when they were setting 5k/10k WRs and winning Olympic golds/silvers (1995-2000). I think it's a pretty safe assumption that today there are more runners waiting until after their peak track 10k/5k fitness to run a marathon than 20-30 years ago. Gebreselassie won the 10k WC silver and ran 26:29, the fastest time in the world this year. He might be just slightly slower than before, but he seems to be pretty damn close to his peak. Tergat immediately jumped from an Oly silver to running marathons in 2:07. Top marathoners are younger, not older, than they were 20-30 years ago relative to their performance peaks. Think of how unusual Salazar was, yet many of the top Africans are about his age now. (BTW, Shorter was the other top 10k runner who also marathoned in the past at his peak.) RMc Alan From: Richard McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "alan tobin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:40:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us ([168.150.193.10]) by mc5-f28.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:42:57 -0700 Received: from user-dp1el8yc6y.cal.net (dcn235-28.dcn.davis.ca.us [168.150.235.28])by velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us (8.11.4/8.11.4/Omsoft) with ESMTP id h9EGgog19152;Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:42:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jF9Td9/1DyHr12VC9A5kd3c Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Oct 2003 16:42:58.0257 (UTC) FILETIME=[39590C10:01C39272] I believe that you CAN make comparisons across distances. What's interesting is that in the women's case, the marathon mark is now much STRONGER than the other marks. How do you explain that discrepancy? Over time, the longer distances have tended to get faster relative to the shorter distances as training volume increased and the number of top line athletes competing in the event has increased. For example, how many 10k WR holders (Gebreselassie) or even 10k WC/Oly medalists (Tergat) have run the men's marathon at or near the peak of their career? Salazar is the only one that I can think of. (Zatopek's triple doesn't count, but even that was a WR, showing how weak the mark was.) What's interesting about the women is that they've had many more top elites at shorter distances run the marathon, in part because the 5k and 10k were not Olympic distances until 1992. As for the drop in marathon from 2:08:34 to 2:08:18, remember that the 10k record only fell from 27:39 to 27:22 in the same period, yet the 10k record is now 26:22. The marathon record should be 2:04:06 if it is to improve an equivalent amount. That's in line with my previous assessment. Your assessment is purely subjective as to whether a 2:05:50 marathon should be considered on par with a 26:30 10k. You then leap to unfounded conclusions based on your purely subjective assessment. I offer a counter assessment which is backed by some quantitative analysis. I'm probably not on the mark, as most quantitative assessments of the real world require oversimplification. However, those types of analyses give a good indication of the general direction--much better than anecdotal subjective assessments. As for record bursts that have occurred, it's not always evident until after the fact as to why those bursts have occurred. If I was going to offer an explanation about the current burst it would be that African runners began to enter the distance running events in large droves in the 1980s. They ran along with the Europeans and Americans with their preexisting notions about running limits until the early 1990s. Then the Africans began to compete solely with each other and discovered that they could push beyond those limits, due in part because their own lifestyles are so harsh (much harder than even 19th century Europe and America), and in part because the added nutritional and technology benefits (not necessarily drugs given the leaps by young athletes who are too poor to buy drugs) that are becoming more available in East and North Africa. The 5k and 10k marks have stood since 1998. Now those top athletes are moving up to the marathon, and the performances in that event are beginning to improve similarly. The introduction of a new competitive populatio
Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
How about KK? Sure he hasn't touched a track race in a long while, but I'm sure he could take down a few of his PRs if he chose to do so. Alan From: Richard McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "alan tobin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> CC: (T&FMail List) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 10:47:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us ([168.150.193.10]) by mc7-f26.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Tue, 14 Oct 2003 10:55:45 -0700 Received: from user-dp1el8yc6y.cal.net (dcn235-28.dcn.davis.ca.us [168.150.235.28])by velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us (8.11.4/8.11.4/Omsoft) with ESMTP id h9EHpsg24333;Tue, 14 Oct 2003 10:51:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jFSO02xCpCZ4xivGkU5FIDS Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Oct 2003 17:55:45.0760 (UTC) FILETIME=[64951E00:01C3927C] At 05:04 PM 10/14/2003 +, alan tobin wrote.. "For example, how many 10k WR holders (Gebreselassie) or even 10k WC/Oly medalists (Tergat) have run the men's marathon at or near the peak of their career?" Are you making the assumption that Geb and Tergat are at the peak of the their careers? I'd have to say that both were at their peak when they were setting 5k/10k WRs and winning Olympic golds/silvers (1995-2000). I think it's a pretty safe assumption that today there are more runners waiting until after their peak track 10k/5k fitness to run a marathon than 20-30 years ago. Gebreselassie won the 10k WC silver and ran 26:29, the fastest time in the world this year. He might be just slightly slower than before, but he seems to be pretty damn close to his peak. Tergat immediately jumped from an Oly silver to running marathons in 2:07. Top marathoners are younger, not older, than they were 20-30 years ago relative to their performance peaks. Think of how unusual Salazar was, yet many of the top Africans are about his age now. (BTW, Shorter was the other top 10k runner who also marathoned in the past at his peak.) RMc Alan From: Richard McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "alan tobin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:40:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us ([168.150.193.10]) by mc5-f28.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:42:57 -0700 Received: from user-dp1el8yc6y.cal.net (dcn235-28.dcn.davis.ca.us [168.150.235.28])by velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us (8.11.4/8.11.4/Omsoft) with ESMTP id h9EGgog19152;Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:42:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jF9Td9/1DyHr12VC9A5kd3c Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Oct 2003 16:42:58.0257 (UTC) FILETIME=[39590C10:01C39272] I believe that you CAN make comparisons across distances. What's interesting is that in the women's case, the marathon mark is now much STRONGER than the other marks. How do you explain that discrepancy? Over time, the longer distances have tended to get faster relative to the shorter distances as training volume increased and the number of top line athletes competing in the event has increased. For example, how many 10k WR holders (Gebreselassie) or even 10k WC/Oly medalists (Tergat) have run the men's marathon at or near the peak of their career? Salazar is the only one that I can think of. (Zatopek's triple doesn't count, but even that was a WR, showing how weak the mark was.) What's interesting about the women is that they've had many more top elites at shorter distances run the marathon, in part because the 5k and 10k were not Olympic distances until 1992. As for the drop in marathon from 2:08:34 to 2:08:18, remember that the 10k record only fell from 27:39 to 27:22 in the same period, yet the 10k record is now 26:22. The marathon record should be 2:04:06 if it is to improve an equivalent amount. That's in line with my previous assessment. Your assessment is purely subjective as to whether a 2:05:50 marathon should be considered on par with a 26:30 10k. You then leap to unfounded conclusions based on your purely subjective assessment. I offer a counter assessment which is backed by some quantitative analysis. I'm probably not on the mark, as most quantitative assessments of the real world require oversimplification. However, those types of analyses give a good indication of the general direction--much better tha
Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
I believe that you CAN make comparisons across distances. What's interesting is that in the women's case, the marathon mark is now much STRONGER than the other marks. How do you explain that discrepancy? Over time, the longer distances have tended to get faster relative to the shorter distances as training volume increased and the number of top line athletes competing in the event has increased. For example, how many 10k WR holders (Gebreselassie) or even 10k WC/Oly medalists (Tergat) have run the men's marathon at or near the peak of their career? Salazar is the only one that I can think of. (Zatopek's triple doesn't count, but even that was a WR, showing how weak the mark was.) What's interesting about the women is that they've had many more top elites at shorter distances run the marathon, in part because the 5k and 10k were not Olympic distances until 1992. As for the drop in marathon from 2:08:34 to 2:08:18, remember that the 10k record only fell from 27:39 to 27:22 in the same period, yet the 10k record is now 26:22. The marathon record should be 2:04:06 if it is to improve an equivalent amount. That's in line with my previous assessment. Your assessment is purely subjective as to whether a 2:05:50 marathon should be considered on par with a 26:30 10k. You then leap to unfounded conclusions based on your purely subjective assessment. I offer a counter assessment which is backed by some quantitative analysis. I'm probably not on the mark, as most quantitative assessments of the real world require oversimplification. However, those types of analyses give a good indication of the general direction--much better than anecdotal subjective assessments. As for record bursts that have occurred, it's not always evident until after the fact as to why those bursts have occurred. If I was going to offer an explanation about the current burst it would be that African runners began to enter the distance running events in large droves in the 1980s. They ran along with the Europeans and Americans with their preexisting notions about running limits until the early 1990s. Then the Africans began to compete solely with each other and discovered that they could push beyond those limits, due in part because their own lifestyles are so harsh (much harder than even 19th century Europe and America), and in part because the added nutritional and technology benefits (not necessarily drugs given the leaps by young athletes who are too poor to buy drugs) that are becoming more available in East and North Africa. The 5k and 10k marks have stood since 1998. Now those top athletes are moving up to the marathon, and the performances in that event are beginning to improve similarly. The introduction of a new competitive population with the right predisposition may have been the reason for the Finnish-driven burst in the 1920s, and the Eastern European-driven burst in the 1950s (emerging from the WWII disaster). The 1940s and 1960s bursts were driven almost solely by new training techniques, although the emergence of Kip Keino had some effect on the latter (the only man who could run toe to toe with both Ryun and Clarke.) The late 70s burst was much more of mixed bag, with Rono on one hand, and Walker, Coe and Ovett on the other. RMc At 02:36 PM 10/14/2003 +, alan tobin wrote: "You need to realize that the current men's marathon WR is still quite weak, and should be well under 2:04 to be equivalent to the classic distances WRs. Even Tergat's half marathon record is better than his marathon." I friggin hate assumptions like that. Using that logic all of the women's WRs fail in comparison to the 400 mark. You can not compare a time at one distance to a time at another distance. It's just stupid. The marathon is an entirely different ball game than the 10k or even the half-marathon. You can however compare times at one distance across decades. It took 21 years to drop from 2:08:34 to 2:08:18. Even if you question the validity of the first time it still took 24 years to drop from 2:09:36 to 2:08:18. That's the largest gap between drops in the men's record. One would think that an event record would drop dramatically at first and then level off unless there are major training breakthroughs (late 60s) or very gifted individuals (Peters, Clayton, KK) who break the record multiple times. What I don't buy is the record being broken by a different person every year or every week. Alan From: Richard McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "alan tobin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:20:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us ([168.150.193.10]) by mc11-f24.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPS
Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
"For example, how many 10k WR holders (Gebreselassie) or even 10k WC/Oly medalists (Tergat) have run the men's marathon at or near the peak of their career?" Are you making the assumption that Geb and Tergat are at the peak of the their careers? I'd have to say that both were at their peak when they were setting 5k/10k WRs and winning Olympic golds/silvers (1995-2000). I think it's a pretty safe assumption that today there are more runners waiting until after their peak track 10k/5k fitness to run a marathon than 20-30 years ago. Alan From: Richard McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "alan tobin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:40:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us ([168.150.193.10]) by mc5-f28.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:42:57 -0700 Received: from user-dp1el8yc6y.cal.net (dcn235-28.dcn.davis.ca.us [168.150.235.28])by velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us (8.11.4/8.11.4/Omsoft) with ESMTP id h9EGgog19152;Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:42:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jF9Td9/1DyHr12VC9A5kd3c Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Oct 2003 16:42:58.0257 (UTC) FILETIME=[39590C10:01C39272] I believe that you CAN make comparisons across distances. What's interesting is that in the women's case, the marathon mark is now much STRONGER than the other marks. How do you explain that discrepancy? Over time, the longer distances have tended to get faster relative to the shorter distances as training volume increased and the number of top line athletes competing in the event has increased. For example, how many 10k WR holders (Gebreselassie) or even 10k WC/Oly medalists (Tergat) have run the men's marathon at or near the peak of their career? Salazar is the only one that I can think of. (Zatopek's triple doesn't count, but even that was a WR, showing how weak the mark was.) What's interesting about the women is that they've had many more top elites at shorter distances run the marathon, in part because the 5k and 10k were not Olympic distances until 1992. As for the drop in marathon from 2:08:34 to 2:08:18, remember that the 10k record only fell from 27:39 to 27:22 in the same period, yet the 10k record is now 26:22. The marathon record should be 2:04:06 if it is to improve an equivalent amount. That's in line with my previous assessment. Your assessment is purely subjective as to whether a 2:05:50 marathon should be considered on par with a 26:30 10k. You then leap to unfounded conclusions based on your purely subjective assessment. I offer a counter assessment which is backed by some quantitative analysis. I'm probably not on the mark, as most quantitative assessments of the real world require oversimplification. However, those types of analyses give a good indication of the general direction--much better than anecdotal subjective assessments. As for record bursts that have occurred, it's not always evident until after the fact as to why those bursts have occurred. If I was going to offer an explanation about the current burst it would be that African runners began to enter the distance running events in large droves in the 1980s. They ran along with the Europeans and Americans with their preexisting notions about running limits until the early 1990s. Then the Africans began to compete solely with each other and discovered that they could push beyond those limits, due in part because their own lifestyles are so harsh (much harder than even 19th century Europe and America), and in part because the added nutritional and technology benefits (not necessarily drugs given the leaps by young athletes who are too poor to buy drugs) that are becoming more available in East and North Africa. The 5k and 10k marks have stood since 1998. Now those top athletes are moving up to the marathon, and the performances in that event are beginning to improve similarly. The introduction of a new competitive population with the right predisposition may have been the reason for the Finnish-driven burst in the 1920s, and the Eastern European-driven burst in the 1950s (emerging from the WWII disaster). The 1940s and 1960s bursts were driven almost solely by new training techniques, although the emergence of Kip Keino had some effect on the latter (the only man who could run toe to toe with both Ryun and Clarke.) The late 70s burst was much more of mixed bag, with Rono on one hand, and Walker, Coe and Ovett on the other. RMc At 02:36 PM 10/14/2003 +, alan tobin wrote: "You need to realize that the curre
Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
--- alan tobin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I friggin hate assumptions like that. Using that logic all of the > women's WRs fail in comparison to the 400 mark. You can not compare a > time at one distance to a time at another distance. It's just stupid. Tell that to Purdy... Comparisons across events for any *one* athlete may not mean much, but you might just be surprised at how good they are at predicting equivalent performances for the best in each event. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design & Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
"You need to realize that the current men's marathon WR is still quite weak, and should be well under 2:04 to be equivalent to the classic distances WRs. Even Tergat's half marathon record is better than his marathon." I friggin hate assumptions like that. Using that logic all of the women's WRs fail in comparison to the 400 mark. You can not compare a time at one distance to a time at another distance. It's just stupid. The marathon is an entirely different ball game than the 10k or even the half-marathon. You can however compare times at one distance across decades. It took 21 years to drop from 2:08:34 to 2:08:18. Even if you question the validity of the first time it still took 24 years to drop from 2:09:36 to 2:08:18. That's the largest gap between drops in the men's record. One would think that an event record would drop dramatically at first and then level off unless there are major training breakthroughs (late 60s) or very gifted individuals (Peters, Clayton, KK) who break the record multiple times. What I don't buy is the record being broken by a different person every year or every week. Alan From: Richard McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "alan tobin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:20:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us ([168.150.193.10]) by mc11-f24.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:27:19 -0700 Received: from user-dp1el8yc6y.cal.net (dcn235-28.dcn.davis.ca.us [168.150.235.28])by velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us (8.11.4/8.11.4/Omsoft) with ESMTP id h9DJNTg17946;Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:23:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jE8Iw8MteVIzZe47pzeDXTH Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Oct 2003 19:27:20.0442 (UTC) FILETIME=[05414DA0:01C391C0] Actually, he's 55 seconds off the WR. By my calculation, his time equals about 26:55 for 10k. Given that few marathoners run equivalent 10k performances, I don't think he's too far out of line. You need to realize that the current men's marathon WR is still quite weak, and should be well under 2:04 to be equivalent to the classic distances WRs. Even Tergat's half marathon record is better than his marathon. RMc At 06:35 PM 10/13/2003 +, alan tobin wrote: When a runner I barely heard of runs his first ever marathon 8 seconds off a record that was just broke I start to wonder. 27:30 10k 2:05:50 marathon. Call me a pessimist if you want. Icing on the cake would be if he's a part of Dr. Rosa's camp. Anyone know? Alan From: Richard McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Richard McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: (T&FMail List) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:16:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from mc11-f33.hotmail.com ([65.54.167.40]) by mc11-s17.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:59:16 -0700 Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu ([128.223.142.13]) by mc11-f33.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:58:24 -0700 Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu ([EMAIL PROTECTED] [127.0.0.1])by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h9CIMqE8021882for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from [EMAIL PROTECTED])by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id h9CIMqjY021881for t-and-f-outgoing; Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us (velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us [168.150.193.10])by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h9CIMoE8021862for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from user-dp1el8yc6y.cal.net (dcn235-28.dcn.davis.ca.us [168.150.235.28])by velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us (8.11.4/8.11.4/Omsoft) with ESMTP id h9CIEng22159;Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:14:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Message-Info: yOfSAGsvVmXUyZvKoX7IYkust6GnxSMllxkgGYAi1YY= Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Oct 2003 18:58:24.0778 (UTC) FILETIME=[D04E3EA0:01C390F2] Sunday October 12, 06:50 PM Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/031012/323/eawyq.html Click to enlarge photo CHICAGO (AFP) - First-time marathoner Evans Rutto of Kenya and reigning Boston Marathon champion Svetlana Zakharova of Russia won titles at the Chicago Marathon. Rutto won in 2hr 05min 50sec,
Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
27:45 July, 4, 1999 - Atlanta 13:24 Sept. 14, 1997 - Providence, R.I. Looking for a blank VCR tape, I found an indoor meet from about 1995. I'll have to go back and review it, but Khannouchi finished fourth in a 3000, two Americans beat him, one was Bob Kennedy. Steve Shea wrote: > What's Khanouchi's 10k PR? > > Steve S. > > - Original Message - > From: alan tobin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 2:35 PM > Subject: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova > win at Chicago > > > When a runner I barely heard of runs his first ever marathon 8 seconds off > a > > record that was just broke I start to wonder. 27:30 10k 2:05:50 marathon. > > Call me a pessimist if you want. Icing on the cake would be if he's a part > > of Dr. Rosa's camp. Anyone know? > > > > Alan > >
Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
What's Khanouchi's 10k PR? Steve S. - Original Message - From: alan tobin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 2:35 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago > When a runner I barely heard of runs his first ever marathon 8 seconds off a > record that was just broke I start to wonder. 27:30 10k 2:05:50 marathon. > Call me a pessimist if you want. Icing on the cake would be if he's a part > of Dr. Rosa's camp. Anyone know? > > Alan >
Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
If a "U.S. girl" in her marathon debut ran within a minute of the world record, you'd probably hear plenty of ranting. Kurt Bray not barely heard of... U. S. girl debut in sub 2:30. Where is the rant?? In a message dated 10/13/2003 12:47:55 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: >When a runner I barely heard of runs his first ever marathon 8 seconds >off a record that was just broke I start to wonder. 27:30 10k 2:05:50 marathon. > >Call me a pessimist if you want. Icing on the cake would be if he's a part > >of Dr. Rosa's camp. Anyone know? > >Alan > _ Concerned that messages may bounce because your Hotmail account has exceeded its 2MB storage limit? Get Hotmail Extra Storage! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es
Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
She's a tall, good looking blond. Gave up her job as an air traffic controller in Albuquerque so she could train more. I would stake Alan's life on it that she's not taking performance-enhancing drugs;) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > not barely heard of... > U. S. girl debut in sub 2:30. Where is the rant?? > > In a message dated 10/13/2003 12:47:55 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > >When a runner I barely heard of runs his first ever marathon 8 seconds > >off a record that was just broke I start to wonder. 27:30 10k 2:05:50 > marathon. > > > >Call me a pessimist if you want. Icing on the cake would be if he's a part > > > >of Dr. Rosa's camp. Anyone know? > > > >Alan > >
Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
Alan- because you have not heard of him it is suspicious? I will tell you Evans is the real deal and 100% clean. I had the honor of being part of Dieters training group,running every day with the guys then hanging out drinking chai watching tv. unfortuantly I got injured and did not get to race. Running with the group (Paul, evans, Godfrey , tim cheriout and laban Kipkemboi) was an amazing experience. These guys are the most efficent runners I have ever seen and they work hard day in and day out. The training program is unbelivbly dificult and these guys made it through ready to race hard. Evans if you followed the running scene closly has also run 61 minutes for the 1/2. Paul and evans will only runner faster in the future. Usually i let these drug accusations go by without response but when they are directed at a friend of mine i cannot. pete watson --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > not barely heard of... > U. S. girl debut in sub 2:30. Where is the rant?? > > > In a message dated 10/13/2003 12:47:55 PM, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > >When a runner I barely heard of runs his first ever > marathon 8 seconds > >off a record that was just broke I start to wonder. > 27:30 10k 2:05:50 > marathon. > > > >Call me a pessimist if you want. Icing on the cake > would be if he's a part > > > >of Dr. Rosa's camp. Anyone know? > > > >Alan > > __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
His PRs in the LaSalle Bank Chicago Marathon press guide: 13:02/27:21, both in 2000. He is 25 (4/8/78) (8/4/78 for the Europeans.) There was a pack of about six Kenyans at about M20 until Ruttu threw in a 4:34 (1:03:35/1:02:15) (last 10K:29:26) and it was over. With first place money and timed bonuses, he earned $225,000US, plus what ever New Balance - his sponsor - gave him. Also, Paul Koech, second place, is sponsored by New Balance. New Balance is also the shoe sponsor of LBCM. So, there could be a good argument that he was highly incentivesed to run well. Maybe a lot of green checks with George Washington's face on them is the only drug he needed. For some reason, his agent and coach are not listed. I know at least one of the elite runners trained with Tergat and had Rosa as a coach. I forget who it was, so I'm not adding icing to your cake just yet. But, I will get this info if someone has not supplied it yet. alan tobin wrote: > When a runner I barely heard of runs his first ever marathon 8 seconds off a > record that was just broke I start to wonder. 27:30 10k 2:05:50 marathon. > Call me a pessimist if you want. Icing on the cake would be if he's a part > of Dr. Rosa's camp. Anyone know? > > Alan > > >From: Richard McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Reply-To: Richard McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: (T&FMail List) [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win > >at Chicago > >Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:16:41 -0700 > >MIME-Version: 1.0 > >Received: from mc11-f33.hotmail.com ([65.54.167.40]) by > >mc11-s17.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Sun, 12 Oct > >2003 11:59:16 -0700 > >Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu ([128.223.142.13]) by > >mc11-f33.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Sun, 12 Oct > >2003 11:58:24 -0700 > >Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu ([EMAIL PROTECTED] [127.0.0.1])by > >darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h9CIMqE8021882for > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:22:52 -0700 > >(PDT) > >Received: (from [EMAIL PROTECTED])by darkwing.uoregon.edu > >(8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id h9CIMqjY021881for t-and-f-outgoing; Sun, 12 Oct > >2003 11:22:52 -0700 (PDT) > >Received: from velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us (velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us > >[168.150.193.10])by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id > >h9CIMoE8021862for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:22:50 > >-0700 (PDT) > >Received: from user-dp1el8yc6y.cal.net (dcn235-28.dcn.davis.ca.us > >[168.150.235.28])by velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us (8.11.4/8.11.4/Omsoft) with > >ESMTP id h9CIEng22159;Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:14:49 -0700 (PDT) > >X-Message-Info: yOfSAGsvVmXUyZvKoX7IYkust6GnxSMllxkgGYAi1YY= > >Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 > >Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Precedence: bulk > >Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Oct 2003 18:58:24.0778 (UTC) > >FILETIME=[D04E3EA0:01C390F2] > > > >Sunday October 12, 06:50 PM > > > >Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago > >http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/031012/323/eawyq.html > > > >Click to enlarge photo > >CHICAGO (AFP) - First-time marathoner Evans Rutto of Kenya and reigning > >Boston Marathon champion Svetlana Zakharova of Russia won titles at the > >Chicago Marathon. > > > >Rutto won in 2hr 05min 50sec, eight seconds off the race mark, American > >Khalid Khannouchi's old world best of 2:05:42 in 1999. > >Click to enlarge photo > >Kenya's Paul Tergat set the world marathon best of 2:04:55 at the Berlin > >Marathon on September 28. > > > >But Rutto's run does break the world mark for first-time marathon runners, > >which had been 2:06:47 by Wilson Onsari in Paris this year. > > > >"I was very surprised by the time," Rutto said. "I'm very happy. I felt > >good all the way, very strong." > > > >Zakharova won in 2:23:07 with runner-up Constantina Tomescu-Dita 28 seconds > >behind. > > > >"It was hard to hold up at the end," Zakharova said. "It was hot. I like it > >here very much and I'll be back next year." > > > >Rutto took home 225,000 dollars while Zakharova received 110,000 dollars. > >Each won 100,000 dollars for the victory but the Kenyan captured more in > >bonus prize money. > > > >A late-race surge brought victory for Zakharova, pulling away from her > >Romanian rival in the final mile for the triumph. > > > >"I tried to hold on for the win, but it was not possible," Tomescu-Dita > >said. "I had pain in my legs and my stomach." > > > >Latvian Jelena Prokopcuka was third, followed by Russia's Albina Ivanova > >and Poland's Grazyna Syrek. > > > >Kenyans swept the top five men's spots with Paul Koech second in an > >unofficial time of 2:07:07 and Daniel Njenga third in an unofficial 2:07:41 > >over the 26.2-mile course. Peter Chebet was fourth with Jimmy Muindi fifth. > > > >Moroccan Abdelkader El Mouaziz was sixth, followed by American Mebrahton > >Keflezh
Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
not barely heard of... U. S. girl debut in sub 2:30. Where is the rant?? In a message dated 10/13/2003 12:47:55 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: >When a runner I barely heard of runs his first ever marathon 8 seconds >off a record that was just broke I start to wonder. 27:30 10k 2:05:50 marathon. > >Call me a pessimist if you want. Icing on the cake would be if he's a part > >of Dr. Rosa's camp. Anyone know? > >Alan >
Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
Actually, he's 55 seconds off the WR. By my calculation, his time equals about 26:55 for 10k. Given that few marathoners run equivalent 10k performances, I don't think he's too far out of line. You need to realize that the current men's marathon WR is still quite weak, and should be well under 2:04 to be equivalent to the classic distances WRs. Even Tergat's half marathon record is better than his marathon. RMc At 06:35 PM 10/13/2003 +, alan tobin wrote: When a runner I barely heard of runs his first ever marathon 8 seconds off a record that was just broke I start to wonder. 27:30 10k 2:05:50 marathon. Call me a pessimist if you want. Icing on the cake would be if he's a part of Dr. Rosa's camp. Anyone know? Alan From: Richard McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Richard McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: (T&FMail List) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:16:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from mc11-f33.hotmail.com ([65.54.167.40]) by mc11-s17.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:59:16 -0700 Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu ([128.223.142.13]) by mc11-f33.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:58:24 -0700 Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu ([EMAIL PROTECTED] [127.0.0.1])by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h9CIMqE8021882for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from [EMAIL PROTECTED])by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id h9CIMqjY021881for t-and-f-outgoing; Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us (velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us [168.150.193.10])by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h9CIMoE8021862for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from user-dp1el8yc6y.cal.net (dcn235-28.dcn.davis.ca.us [168.150.235.28])by velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us (8.11.4/8.11.4/Omsoft) with ESMTP id h9CIEng22159;Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:14:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Message-Info: yOfSAGsvVmXUyZvKoX7IYkust6GnxSMllxkgGYAi1YY= Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Oct 2003 18:58:24.0778 (UTC) FILETIME=[D04E3EA0:01C390F2] Sunday October 12, 06:50 PM Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/031012/323/eawyq.html Click to enlarge photo CHICAGO (AFP) - First-time marathoner Evans Rutto of Kenya and reigning Boston Marathon champion Svetlana Zakharova of Russia won titles at the Chicago Marathon. Rutto won in 2hr 05min 50sec, eight seconds off the race mark, American Khalid Khannouchi's old world best of 2:05:42 in 1999. Click to enlarge photo Kenya's Paul Tergat set the world marathon best of 2:04:55 at the Berlin Marathon on September 28. But Rutto's run does break the world mark for first-time marathon runners, which had been 2:06:47 by Wilson Onsari in Paris this year. "I was very surprised by the time," Rutto said. "I'm very happy. I felt good all the way, very strong." Zakharova won in 2:23:07 with runner-up Constantina Tomescu-Dita 28 seconds behind. "It was hard to hold up at the end," Zakharova said. "It was hot. I like it here very much and I'll be back next year." Rutto took home 225,000 dollars while Zakharova received 110,000 dollars. Each won 100,000 dollars for the victory but the Kenyan captured more in bonus prize money. A late-race surge brought victory for Zakharova, pulling away from her Romanian rival in the final mile for the triumph. "I tried to hold on for the win, but it was not possible," Tomescu-Dita said. "I had pain in my legs and my stomach." Latvian Jelena Prokopcuka was third, followed by Russia's Albina Ivanova and Poland's Grazyna Syrek. Kenyans swept the top five men's spots with Paul Koech second in an unofficial time of 2:07:07 and Daniel Njenga third in an unofficial 2:07:41 over the 26.2-mile course. Peter Chebet was fourth with Jimmy Muindi fifth. Moroccan Abdelkader El Mouaziz was sixth, followed by American Mebrahton Keflezhigi and South Africa's Hendrick Ramaala. Rutto, 25, ran the eighth-fastest 10,000m in the world in June of 2000, a personal best of 27:31:32. He seized command in the men's race, zipping through the 20th mile in 4:35 to pull away from a world-class field and handling the final 10km in 29:26. Zakharova, 33, was coming off a ninth-place showing at August's World Championships in Paris, where she ran 2:26:53. Zakharova won the Boston Marathon in April in 2:25:19 and ran her personal best here last year to place fourth in 2:21:31, a Russian national record. The 26th running of the Chicago race featured 40,000 entrants and a record 550,000-dollar purse.
Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
When a runner I barely heard of runs his first ever marathon 8 seconds off a record that was just broke I start to wonder. 27:30 10k 2:05:50 marathon. Call me a pessimist if you want. Icing on the cake would be if he's a part of Dr. Rosa's camp. Anyone know? Alan From: Richard McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Richard McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: (T&FMail List) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:16:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from mc11-f33.hotmail.com ([65.54.167.40]) by mc11-s17.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:59:16 -0700 Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu ([128.223.142.13]) by mc11-f33.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:58:24 -0700 Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu ([EMAIL PROTECTED] [127.0.0.1])by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h9CIMqE8021882for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from [EMAIL PROTECTED])by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id h9CIMqjY021881for t-and-f-outgoing; Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us (velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us [168.150.193.10])by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h9CIMoE8021862for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from user-dp1el8yc6y.cal.net (dcn235-28.dcn.davis.ca.us [168.150.235.28])by velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us (8.11.4/8.11.4/Omsoft) with ESMTP id h9CIEng22159;Sun, 12 Oct 2003 11:14:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Message-Info: yOfSAGsvVmXUyZvKoX7IYkust6GnxSMllxkgGYAi1YY= Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Oct 2003 18:58:24.0778 (UTC) FILETIME=[D04E3EA0:01C390F2] Sunday October 12, 06:50 PM Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/031012/323/eawyq.html Click to enlarge photo CHICAGO (AFP) - First-time marathoner Evans Rutto of Kenya and reigning Boston Marathon champion Svetlana Zakharova of Russia won titles at the Chicago Marathon. Rutto won in 2hr 05min 50sec, eight seconds off the race mark, American Khalid Khannouchi's old world best of 2:05:42 in 1999. Click to enlarge photo Kenya's Paul Tergat set the world marathon best of 2:04:55 at the Berlin Marathon on September 28. But Rutto's run does break the world mark for first-time marathon runners, which had been 2:06:47 by Wilson Onsari in Paris this year. "I was very surprised by the time," Rutto said. "I'm very happy. I felt good all the way, very strong." Zakharova won in 2:23:07 with runner-up Constantina Tomescu-Dita 28 seconds behind. "It was hard to hold up at the end," Zakharova said. "It was hot. I like it here very much and I'll be back next year." Rutto took home 225,000 dollars while Zakharova received 110,000 dollars. Each won 100,000 dollars for the victory but the Kenyan captured more in bonus prize money. A late-race surge brought victory for Zakharova, pulling away from her Romanian rival in the final mile for the triumph. "I tried to hold on for the win, but it was not possible," Tomescu-Dita said. "I had pain in my legs and my stomach." Latvian Jelena Prokopcuka was third, followed by Russia's Albina Ivanova and Poland's Grazyna Syrek. Kenyans swept the top five men's spots with Paul Koech second in an unofficial time of 2:07:07 and Daniel Njenga third in an unofficial 2:07:41 over the 26.2-mile course. Peter Chebet was fourth with Jimmy Muindi fifth. Moroccan Abdelkader El Mouaziz was sixth, followed by American Mebrahton Keflezhigi and South Africa's Hendrick Ramaala. Rutto, 25, ran the eighth-fastest 10,000m in the world in June of 2000, a personal best of 27:31:32. He seized command in the men's race, zipping through the 20th mile in 4:35 to pull away from a world-class field and handling the final 10km in 29:26. Zakharova, 33, was coming off a ninth-place showing at August's World Championships in Paris, where she ran 2:26:53. Zakharova won the Boston Marathon in April in 2:25:19 and ran her personal best here last year to place fourth in 2:21:31, a Russian national record. The 26th running of the Chicago race featured 40,000 entrants and a record 550,000-dollar purse. _ Share your photos without swamping your Inbox. Get Hotmail Extra Storage today! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es
