Re: [Tagging] Tourism=attraction: feature or secondary tag?

[Yves]

Le 7 décembre 2018 08:24:33 GMT+01:00, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> a écrit :
>On 07/12/18 16:09, Yves wrote:
>>
>> Le 6 décembre 2018 23:05:48 GMT+01:00, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>
>a écrit :
>>> On 07/12/18 06:49, Mark Wagner wrote:
 On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 17:54:44 +0100
 Rory McCann  wrote:

> On 06/12/2018 08:38, Mark Wagner wrote:
>> Yellowstone National Park has attracted a fair few bare
>> "tourism=attraction" objects.  How would you tag the following:
>>
>> * Boiling River and Firehole Swimming Area, naturally-heated
>> stretches of river that are popular for swimming.
> natural=water + leisure=swimming_area ? natural=water +
> sport=swimming ?
 Seems reasonable.
>>>   Except for sport. Sport implies competition, are there marked
>lanes
>>> for this competition? I'd think not. So I would leave sport out of
>it.
>>>
>> Sport key for competition or leisure, IMHO.
>
>For leisure - swimming requires no marked lines etc (other than a pool
>of water).
>So it has no specific infrastructure .. meaning it should not be in
>OSM?
>

OSM being OSM, you can't avoid a "swimming" tag to be added by a contributor 
one day or another to any piece of water he/she like to use for practice. 

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Re: [Tagging] Tourism=attraction: feature or secondary tag?

[Warin]

On 07/12/18 16:09, Yves wrote:


Le 6 décembre 2018 23:05:48 GMT+01:00, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> a écrit :

On 07/12/18 06:49, Mark Wagner wrote:

On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 17:54:44 +0100
Rory McCann  wrote:


On 06/12/2018 08:38, Mark Wagner wrote:

Yellowstone National Park has attracted a fair few bare
"tourism=attraction" objects.  How would you tag the following:

* Boiling River and Firehole Swimming Area, naturally-heated
stretches of river that are popular for swimming.

natural=water + leisure=swimming_area ? natural=water +
sport=swimming ?

Seems reasonable.

  Except for sport. Sport implies competition, are there marked lanes
for this competition? I'd think not. So I would leave sport out of it.


Sport key for competition or leisure, IMHO.


For leisure - swimming requires no marked lines etc (other than a pool of 
water).
So it has no specific infrastructure .. meaning it should not be in OSM?



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Re: [Tagging] Tourism=attraction: feature or secondary tag?

[Yves]

Le 6 décembre 2018 23:05:48 GMT+01:00, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> a écrit :
>On 07/12/18 06:49, Mark Wagner wrote:
>> On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 17:54:44 +0100
>> Rory McCann  wrote:
>>
>>> On 06/12/2018 08:38, Mark Wagner wrote:
 Yellowstone National Park has attracted a fair few bare
 "tourism=attraction" objects.  How would you tag the following:

 * Boiling River and Firehole Swimming Area, naturally-heated
 stretches of river that are popular for swimming.
>>> natural=water + leisure=swimming_area ? natural=water +
>>> sport=swimming ?
>> Seems reasonable.
>
> Except for sport. Sport implies competition, are there marked lanes
>for this competition? I'd think not. So I would leave sport out of it.
>
Sport key for competition or leisure, IMHO.
Yves 

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Re: [Tagging] Tourism=attraction: feature or secondary tag?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

7 Dec 2018, 02:13 by joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com:

> natural=rock and rock=petrified_wood could also work well. I wonder if
> there is already a way to classify types of rock formations, eg
> limestone, granite, basalt?
>
material tag?

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/?key=material 

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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

On 12/7/18, Eugene Podshivalov  wrote:
>> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 19:30, Kevin Kenny :
>> ... Is it immediately obvious in the field that one thing is a
>> 'gorod' and another is a 'gorodskoy posyolok,' while a third is a
>> 'perevnya?' If so, what is the difference? ...
>
> They cannot be put into name tag because they are not part of the proper
> name. It would be like renaming "Paris" into "Paris city".
> Neither the admin boundary scheme can help here because one settlements of
> different local category can belong to one and the same admin level.
> Here are a couple of cases when the knowlege of these local categories is
> needed.
> 1) They are used in address strings

In this case they should be included in at least one of the name tags,
perhaps official_name="XXX Gorod"  or alt_name="XXX Gorod" etc.

Her in Indonesia, admin_level 5 can be a "Kabupaten" ("Regency" or
county) or "Kota" ("City"), so we use:
name = "Kabupaten Jayapura" and
name = "Kota Jayapura"
for the two, adjacent administrative entities. Jayapura is also a
place=city which is tagged as a node, without the "Kota", but the
official_name could be "Kota Jayapura" as well.
You could also use official_name or alt_name for these situations, if
it fits better in Belarus

> 2) They are sometimes displayed in maps to resolve ambiguousness (when two
> neighbourhood settlement have one and the same name and differ only in
> category name).

If they should normally be displayed this way on local maps, then the
full name should certainly be included in the "name=" tag eg name="XXX
Gorodskoy Posyolok", if local people expect the full name to be
displayed on maps.

The "name" tag is for the full name as used by local people, and often
includes a word that describes the type of features. Eg "Rio Grande"
is the correct name for the "Big River" on the USA-Mexico border, even
though it just means "big river".

"The Central Valley" is the correct name of the very large valley or
plain in the center of California.

> * There is a common practice in Belarus to draw residential area of
> different settlement types in different color.

This would require a different solution. If it is only the residential
area that is shown in a different color, then you can tag the area as
usual, with landuse=residential.

Then add an additional subtag, such as residential=village,
residential=town and residential=city. This will then make it quite
easy to render each type of residential area differently.

If the current settlement names are not precise enough, you could use
residential=small_town, residential=large_town, etc, to fit the
meaning of  "gorod", "perevnya" and such.

But I agree that the current 5-level system of settlements, from
isolated_dwelling to city, can probably be adapted to fit the common
usage of the words in Belarus.

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Re: [Tagging] Tourism=attraction: feature or secondary tag?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

5 Dec 2018, 11:40 by o...@imagico.de:
> We have however many other tags where OSM-Carto recently added or 
> changed rendering in ways that provide mapping incentives agaist the 
> established meaning of the tags. 
>
Can you link issues opened on issue tracker that
report this serious problems?

I looked at it and I failed to find any that would be opened recently.___
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

6 Dec 2018, 01:45 by s...@smz.it:

>
> I mean, in a more general way and going back to the pond case,
>
>
>>
>> object 1:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> natural=water
>>>  water=pond
>>>  water:RU=пруд
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> object 2
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> natural=water
>>>  water=pond
>>>  water:RU=копанка
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
> would respect both > our > sensibility to "see" the two  objects as ponds 
> and > their > sensibility to "see" the two  as whatever they think they 
> are
>
>
It would be preferable to use English words - it is likely that this 
classification is
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Re: [Tagging] Tourism=attraction: feature or secondary tag?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

5 Dec 2018, 07:29 by joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com:
> Is it necessary to use tourism=attraction as the only tag for certain 
> features?
>
No, it is never, ever OK. And JOSM validator complains about such tagging.

> Either we need to add an icon or outline, or we can remove this> from the 
> list of rendered features. If the wiki is correct then it can
> be removed, because properly-tagged features should have another, more
> specific tag that can be rendered
>
This is offtopic for this mailing list.

Proper place for discussing rendering in this style is at its issue tracker at
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues 

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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 6. Dec 2018, at 23:38, Michael Patrick  wrote:
> 
> This also leaves room for reconciling it with other classifications - 
> Japanese style carpentry roles are more or less orthogonal to Western style,


you are right that there are dictionaries about this stuff, but you will have 
to have a basic idea in order to make use of them, particularly if English is 
not your native language, you might look up terms that you are familiar with, 
and might not be aware that you are missing another relevant term, or that the 
term is not a translation with more or less the same meaning but only loosely 
connected.

Language is reflecting reality, and if the way construction work is organized 
is different in different countries, also the terms describing the workers will 
not be matchable.

Additionally we are not going to add every single term that describes a 
profession as a tag, because there are synonyms and overlap. We usually try to 
create (not too) coarse classes/groups and use subtags to distinguish minor 
differences. 

FWIW, with regard to dictionaries, in the case of the misleading roofer 
description, it was copied exactly from the English wikipedia article on 
roofers, which is in itself not consistent there (mixes carpentry and roofing 
in the article).

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

6 Dec 2018, 12:51 by yauge...@gmail.com:

> Another solution is to always put category name into "name" field. "Paris" 
> would become "City of Paris" or "Paris city".
>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

6. Dec 2018 16:56 by yauge...@gmail.com :


> Let's look into some other examples.> Settlements are supposed to be defined 
> with place=city/town/village/hamlet/isolated_dwelling tags. The value depends 
> on the size of the settlement.> But in Belarus for example we call our 
> settlements "город" (can be city or town), "городской посёлок" (can be town 
> or village), "посёлок"/"деревня"/"хутор" (can be village or hamlet or 
> isolated_dwelling).> When people use the maps created form OSM database they 
> don't care about the generic OSM categorization of settlements. They need 
> their local category names.> So what tag should be put those local category 
> names in?




 You may start using an additional tag to add information about legal 
designation of a 
settlement (I suspect that tag like this already exists).

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Re: [Tagging] Tourism=attraction: feature or secondary tag?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

6. Dec 2018 20:49 by mark+...@carnildo.com :


> On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 17:54:44 +0100
> Rory McCann <> r...@technomancy.org > > wrote:
>
>> On 06/12/2018 08:38, Mark Wagner wrote:
>> > Yellowstone National Park has attracted a fair few bare
>>  
>> > * Petrified Tree, a large, petrified section of tree trunk.  
>>
>> natural=tree? natural=petrified_tree ?
>
> "Tree" is misleading.  "natural=petrified_tree" would be good, except
> it gets zero hits in TagInfo.
>




It is perfectly fine to use tag fo the first time. Happens fairly often to me 


during cleanup of bare tourism=attraction. 





>> > * Norris Geyser Basin, Upper Geyser Basin, Artist Paint Pots,
>> > Fountain Paint Pots, and other named groups of thermal features.  
>>
>> natural=geyser ?
>
> "natural=geyser" is already in use for geysers.  Applying it to entire
> geyser basins would be like using the same tag for both single trees
> and forests.  (It would also be inaccurate, since these basins usually
> contain a mix of geysers, fumaroles, hot springs, and occasionally mud
> pots.)

natural=geyser_basin? 



>> > * Roaring Mountain, a hillside that contains a large number of steam
>> >vents.  
>>
>> place=locality ? natural=peak ? natural=hill ?
>
> "locality" might work, but it's even more generic than "tourist
> attraction".  "Peak" or "hill" don't work -- the summit is almost a mile
> to the southwest of the actual point of interest.
>

natural=geothermal_area () 

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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Michael Patrick]

> great you name carpenters, because there were actually some problems in the
> past classifying people working with wood. ... Can you explain the
> difference between a framer, a carpenter, a cabinet maker, a joiner, a
> finish carpenter, a timberman, a ring builder, a jerry man, a binder?
>

There could only be a problem classifying trades if existing lexicons are
ignored. At least in the U.S., currently, there are fairly exact
definitions for trade classifications, down to the types of tools, specific
materials, certification, and processes where required.

Example: *"Grade 9 roofers must be fully skilled in installing new roofs.
They must have the ability to apply the starter row of shingles to insure
that they overlap properly and that they are securely fastened to the
subsurface to eliminate possibility of leaks. On built-up roofs, they must
be skilled in applying roofing felt, asphalt and gravel, or other topping
material, and in sealing joints of roofing accessories with asphalt. In
addition to work at the grade 7 level, the grade 9 roofers must be able to
install and repair the metal roofing accessories themselves, such as gravel
guards, flashings, gutters, valleys, vents, pipes, and chimneys.They also
must have the ability to cut and form metal accessories to meet roofing
requirements, to fasten them to roofs with nails or screws, to solder metal
joints, and to cut and shape shingles to fit around the accessories. In
comparison with the grade 7 level, the grade 9 roofers also must be
familiar with a greater variety of roofing materials and their uses and
methods of installation. They must know how to apply wood, asbestos, slate
tile, and composition shingles; metal roofing panels; roofing felt and
asphalt. When required, they must be able to apply asbestos siding
materials.In addition to the hand tools used at the grade 7 level, they
must be skilled in the use of shingle cutters, metal snips and saws. "*

International Open BIM systems standards ( Building Information Management,
which covers the entire life cycle from natural site, through construction
and operation, to demolition and site restoration ) have even finer grain
of detail.

Some of them might be synonyms, some reflect regional differences (e.g. AE
> vs. BE)?
>

Since the labor and materials supply chain is international, there are
multi-lingual crosswalk tables between the U.S. and E.U., between the E.U.
and the member countries.

A casual observer might observe a job site during a pour, and classify the
workers as 'concrete workers', when they are actually Formwork *Carpenters.*

Folksonomies  like OSM have
benefits, but as they expand, the downsides begin to matter, and there
usually isn't an effective mechanism to refactor them.

Sometimes the apparent complexity of these existing standards appear
intimidating, but they all have a root, branches, and leaves, and one can
select the level(s) of abstraction which are coincident with common
language. i.e. in one place you can see what the differences *and
similarities* "... between a framer, a carpenter, a cabinet maker, a
joiner, a finish carpenter, a timberman, a ring builder, a jerry man, a
binder" are, and where your term lies in the hierarchy. Sometimes, the
'root' concept and groupings are not obvious.

This also leaves room for reconciling it with other classifications -
Japanese style carpentry roles are more or less orthogonal to Western
style, more intensely aligned to product, the worker literally might select
and fell the tree, mill that wood, and eventually carve it to shape in it's
final position.

It's a question, to a degree, of "re-inventing the wheel". There are
already existing tagging schemes in the world ( some going back to the
1700's, from guilds and registries ). It might be worth a few minutes to
seek those out, and adopt from those.

Michael Patrick
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018, 11:58 PM Eugene Podshivalov  But in Belarus for example we call our settlements "город" (can be city or
> town), "городской посёлок" (can be town or village),
> "посёлок"/"деревня"/"хутор" (can be village or hamlet or isolated_dwelling).
> When people use the maps created form OSM database they don't care about
> the generic OSM categorization of settlements. They need their local
> category names.
> So what tag should be put those local category names in?
>

If these settlement types are legally-defined types in your country, you
could use the designation=* tag with your country-specific values alongside
the usual place=* tags.

See: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:designation

>
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Re: [Tagging] Tourism=attraction: feature or secondary tag?

[Rory McCann]

On 06/12/2018 08:38, Mark Wagner wrote:

Yellowstone National Park has attracted a fair few bare
"tourism=attraction" objects.  How would you tag the following:

* Boiling River and Firehole Swimming Area, naturally-heated stretches
   of river that are popular for swimming.


natural=water + leisure=swimming_area ? natural=water + sport=swimming ?


* Petrified Tree, a large, petrified section of tree trunk.


natural=tree? natural=petrified_tree ?


* Soda Butte, the rock formation left behind by a long-extinct geyser.


natural=rock ? natural=rock_formation ?


* Norris Geyser Basin, Upper Geyser Basin, Artist Paint Pots, Fountain
   Paint Pots, and other named groups of thermal features.


natural=geyser ?


* Roaring Mountain, a hillside that contains a large number of steam
   vents.


place=locality ? natural=peak ? natural=hill ?


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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Paul Allen]

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 4:38 PM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> For example I would see the distinction between a hamlet and a village in
> a functional criterion, while in Europe it is often clear what is a town
> and what is a big village, from looking at the legal situation (history is
> usually important), it can be in the name / people usually know it.
>

In the UK, many many years ago, these distinctions applied:

To be a city the place had to have a cathedral.

To be a town the place had to have a market.

To be a village the place had to have a church.

To be a hamlet it didn't even have a church but did have more than one
dwelling.

The distinctions were never that hard and fast, and have only loosened over
time.  A city now has a
cathedral or a royal charter or a university or just feels like calling
itself a city.  A large village in England
can be larger than a large town in Wales.  Some towns no longer have
markets, but once did.
Some villages no longer have churches, but once did.  Etc.

I see that the wiki suggests using those terms as an indicator of
population rather than anything else.
Since some renderers assume those values are indicators of population,
maybe that's what we
should be using explicitly and drop the city/town/village/hamlet.  Except,
of course, population is often
left untagged (and is sometimes that information is simply not available).

The real world is messy.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Do., 6. Dez. 2018 um 16:58 Uhr schrieb Eugene Podshivalov <
yauge...@gmail.com>:

> Let's look into some other examples.
> Settlements are supposed to be defined with
> place=city/town/village/hamlet/isolated_dwelling tags. The value depends on
> the size of the settlement.
>


this is not a hard requirement, there is a suggestion to do it like this,
and there is an explicit note that it can differ by country/context.
For example I would see the distinction between a hamlet and a village in a
functional criterion, while in Europe it is often clear what is a town and
what is a big village, from looking at the legal situation (history is
usually important), it can be in the name / people usually know it.




> But in Belarus for example we call our settlements "город" (can be city or
> town), "городской посёлок" (can be town or village),
> "посёлок"/"деревня"/"хутор" (can be village or hamlet or isolated_dwelling).
>
When people use the maps created form OSM database they don't care about
> the generic OSM categorization of settlements. They need their local
> category names.
> So what tag should be put those local category names in?
>
>

You should create a scale of significance which correlates more or less to
the situation and adopt the standard place tags, plus add a subtag for the
local classes. How do they work, what does characterize them? Is it about
the administration hierarchy?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Kevin Kenny]

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 10:58 AM Eugene Podshivalov 
wrote:

> Let's look into some other examples.
> Settlements are supposed to be defined with
> place=city/town/village/hamlet/isolated_dwelling tags. The value depends on
> the size of the settlement.
> But in Belarus for example we call our settlements "город" (can be city or
> town), "городской посёлок" (can be town or village),
> "посёлок"/"деревня"/"хутор" (can be village or hamlet or isolated_dwelling).
> When people use the maps created form OSM database they don't care about
> the generic OSM categorization of settlements. They need their local
> category names.
> So what tag should be put those local category names in?
>
>
Several thoughts.

If it's something that people usually use in referring to the place, put it
in the name. So 'Nizhny Novgorod' would be named thus (sorry, I don't have
the time to try to enter Cyrillic on a US keyboard).

If it refers to an administrative entity, put an appropriate level in the
boundary=administrative.

Where I live, the formal designation of a place usually fails to match the
OSM definition. We have formal 'hamlet's that have 6 inhabitants, and
chartered cities with only a few hundred. We use boundary=administrative
with an appropriate admin_level (and I've been lobbying for
administrative:entity to give a word for the legal designation: county,
borough, city, township, village, hamlet, ward, precinct, community
district, ... but that hasn't gotten any significant traction yet). The
'admin_level' is not strictly hierarchical here, because our system for
drawing administrative boundaries is, "there's no system: deal with it!"
The OSM definition is useful for mapping - deciding at what level to render
the name and in how big a font, for instance. Few people around here
actually care when using a map what formal political organization the place
has. Whether the community I grew up in was a Hamlet or a Village made very
little practical difference. You'd have a different set of local
politicians, and the cops might work for the county instead of the town,
but the type of place was clearly much less important than the borders of
the place.

If it's a question about the common name rather than the formal name,
that's usually dealt with by name_1, etc. That way, the city called "New
York" can be disambiguated, "New York City" (informal, very commonly used
to make it clear that it's New York City and not New York State), "The City
of New York" (what appears on most of its legal papers), "The City of
Greater New York" (the way it's styled in its charter).

If it's neither a component of the name of the place nor a formal
designation of a political boundary, can you explain more why it's
important? Is it immediately obvious in the field that one thing is a
'gorod' and another is a 'gorodskoy posyolok,' while a third is a
'perevnya?' If so, what is the difference? What's the problem we're trying
to solve?
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Eugene Podshivalov]

Let's look into some other examples.
Settlements are supposed to be defined with
place=city/town/village/hamlet/isolated_dwelling tags. The value depends on
the size of the settlement.
But in Belarus for example we call our settlements "город" (can be city or
town), "городской посёлок" (can be town or village),
"посёлок"/"деревня"/"хутор" (can be village or hamlet or isolated_dwelling).
When people use the maps created form OSM database they don't care about
the generic OSM categorization of settlements. They need their local
category names.
So what tag should be put those local category names in?

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 18:52, Xavier :

> On Thu, Dec 06, 2018 at 04:44:43PM +0100, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> >btw, just saw that roofer is defined as: "A workplace or office of a
> >tradesman who is specialized in roof construction.", IMHO this should be
> >more specific (if I am not misguided) by pointing out it isn't about the
> >structure but about the cover, right?
>
> At least in the US, yes.  The term "roofer" is typically used (in the
> US) to refer to tradesman who install roof coverings (i.e., roof
> shingles, etc.) onto an already constructed roof sub-structure.
>
> They ("roofers") also sometimes do small repair work (replace some
> rotten roof boards, etc.) while installing a new roof cover on an
> existing building, but they typically are not the builders of the full
> roof substructure.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Xavier]

On Thu, Dec 06, 2018 at 04:44:43PM +0100, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

btw, just saw that roofer is defined as: "A workplace or office of a
tradesman who is specialized in roof construction.", IMHO this should be
more specific (if I am not misguided) by pointing out it isn't about the
structure but about the cover, right?


At least in the US, yes.  The term "roofer" is typically used (in the 
US) to refer to tradesman who install roof coverings (i.e., roof 
shingles, etc.) onto an already constructed roof sub-structure.


They ("roofers") also sometimes do small repair work (replace some 
rotten roof boards, etc.) while installing a new roof cover on an 
existing building, but they typically are not the builders of the full 
roof substructure.


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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Do., 6. Dez. 2018 um 15:52 Uhr schrieb Kevin Kenny <
kevin.b.ke...@gmail.com>:

>
> Right. But please don't resort to local-language words for terms that do
> have a satisfactory UK-English equivalent. Don't use craft=menuiscier in
> French when 'carpenter' is a serviceable English word. And please wikify
> your choices.
>



great you name carpenters, because there were actually some problems in the
past classifying people working with wood.
Can you explain the difference between a framer, a carpenter, a cabinet
maker, a joiner, a finish carpenter, a timberman, a ring builder, a jerry
man, a binder?

Some of them might be synonyms, some reflect regional differences (e.g. AE
vs. BE)?

Does the term "carpenter" imply someone will do structural wood work, like
roofs, walls, stairs, ships or is it more generic?
Which one is a specialist for fine, precise wood work like furniture?
You could probably ask someone specialized in structural work to do
finishings, just that the quality will typically not be what you get from
someone specialized in interiors or furniture.

There is some documentation in the wiki, but there is also overlap in
definitions, this is currently on the craft map features page:
* a carpenter is defined to make everything: "A workplace or office of
carpenters that work with timber to construct, install and maintain
buildings, furniture, and other objects.")
* cabinetmaker: A person who makes fine wooden furniture
* cooper: A person or company that manufacture of containers and vessels
mainly made of wood.
* joiner: An artisan who builds things by joining pieces of wood,
particularly furniture or ornamental work.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:craft


btw, just saw that roofer is defined as: "A workplace or office of a
tradesman who is specialized in roof construction.", IMHO this should be
more specific (if I am not misguided) by pointing out it isn't about the
structure but about the cover, right?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Sergio Manzi]

Totally agreed! Thanks!

Now, do you see anything wrong in an attempt of being "/cross-cultuarlly 
correct/" and, _just as an example_,  tag a feature as:

shop=deli
shop:it=salumeria

?

That, I think, would have value added for both "/an American in Rome/", trying 
to find a place where to buy food, and "/an Italian in Rome/" trying to find a 
proper salumeria...


On 2018-12-06 15:51, Kevin Kenny wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 9:31 AM Sergio Manzi  > wrote:
>
> That's what I'm often hearing, and not only from you, but have a look at 
> wiki page about the /craft /key [1 
> ], as in there I can read:
>
> "/You are *free *to use *values *that match your needs as a mapper 
> and your local or country environment, culture and *language*. *If *using the 
> English language, please use the singular form, e.g. carpenter not carpenters 
> or carpenter's./"
>
> From the above I get:
>
>  1. A recognition that sometimes English terms are not fit to convey a 
> culture-specific concept.
>  2. I can use terms that are not part of the English language if they are 
> needed to convey such concepts.
>
> Right. But please don't resort to local-language words for terms that do have 
> a satisfactory UK-English equivalent. Don't use craft=menuiscier in French 
> when 'carpenter' is a serviceable English word. And please wikify your 
> choices.


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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Kevin Kenny]

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 9:31 AM Sergio Manzi  wrote:

> That's what I'm often hearing, and not only from you, but have a look at
> wiki page about the *craft *key [1
> ], as in there I can read:
>
> "*You are free to use values that match your needs as a mapper and your
> local or country environment, culture and language. If using the English
> language, please use the singular form, e.g. carpenter not carpenters or
> carpenter's.*"
>
> From the above I get:
>
>1. A recognition that sometimes English terms are not fit to convey a
>culture-specific concept.
>2. I can use terms that are not part of the English language if they
>are needed to convey such concepts.
>
> Right. But please don't resort to local-language words for terms that do
have a satisfactory UK-English equivalent. Don't use craft=menuiscier in
French when 'carpenter' is a serviceable English word. And please wikify
your choices.
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Sergio Manzi]

That's what I'm often hearing, and not only from you, but have a look at wiki 
page about the /craft /key [1 ], 
as in there I can read:

"/You are *free *to use *values *that match your needs as a mapper and your 
local or country environment, culture and *language*. *If *using the English 
language, please use the singular form, e.g. carpenter not carpenters or 
carpenter's./"

From the above I get:

 1. A recognition that sometimes English terms are not fit to convey a 
culture-specific concept.
 2. I can use terms that are not part of the English language if they are 
needed to convey such concepts.

Have a nice day,

Sergio

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:craft


On 2018-12-06 13:53, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> we do not translate anything, we do add names in different languages, but 
> these aren’t translations, they are names.


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Re: [Tagging] Salumeria(it) / charcuterie(fr) / Wurstwaren (de) WAS Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Sergio Manzi]

I understand this is not a discussion between you and me, but as you cited me, 
I felt obliged to explain you why I'm not (/much/) interested in the specific, 
just as an act of courtesy toward you (/but //apperently you misunderstood.../)

take care,

Sergio


On 2018-12-06 14:02, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> this is not a discussion between me and you, I have taken your comment as an 
> opportunity to discuss tagging of the salumerie, and as they might be similar 
> to French charcuteries, and possibly in other countries, I am doing it on the 
> international tagging ML. You are free to participate or refrain from doing 
> so, but let’s keep the noise at a reasonable level and refrain from telling 
> everyone if we decide not to participate.
>
> Changing the subject when moving to a different topic out of an existing 
> thread is encouraged on this list.
>
> Cheers, Martin


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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Paul Allen]

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 12:39 PM Sergio Manzi  wrote:

> Eugene, those are "*proper names*" and as such they are untranslatable,
> and that's exactly why to put a category name within a proper name is "*a
> very bad idea (tm)*". But if a proper name happens to have a category has
> part of its proper name, just leave it alone... no problem...
>

+99

Very often the name of an object is also descriptive.  Probably because it
starts out being
purely descriptive and ends up being the proper name of the object.  There
is a bridge in Paris
which is called "Pont Neuf" (New Bridge) - it's the oldest standing bridge
in Paris but, at the
time it acquired that name, it was the newest.  There are a gazillion
(rough estimate) farmhouses
in Wales called "Penrallt" (top of the wood).  Etc., etc.  Those terms
describe those objects but
they're also the names of those objects.

Don't use an object's description as its name unless that description
actually IS the name.  Some
people know only the first eight words of that instruction and are unaware
of the last seven words.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Salumeria(it) / charcuterie(fr) / Wurstwaren (de) WAS Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 6. Dec 2018, at 13:39, Sergio Manzi  wrote:
> 
> Martin,
> 
> I see you have "spawned" my comment from another thread into this thread.
> 
> I take for granted your good willingness in doing that, but you'll forgive me 
> if I will not partecipate to this specific discussion.
> 


this is not a discussion between me and you, I have taken your comment as an 
opportunity to discuss tagging of the salumerie, and as they might be similar 
to French charcuteries, and possibly in other countries, I am doing it on the 
international tagging ML. You are free to participate or refrain from doing so, 
but let’s keep the noise at a reasonable level and refrain from telling 
everyone if we decide not to participate.

Changing the subject when moving to a different topic out of an existing thread 
is encouraged on this list.

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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 6. Dec 2018, at 13:30, Eugene Podshivalov  wrote:
> 
> And how would you translate into French such American waterway=stream's as  
> “Bull Run”, “Walker Creek”, “Johnson’s Brook”, etc. 


we do not translate anything, we do add names in different languages, but these 
aren’t translations, they are names.

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Salumeria(it) / charcuterie(fr) / Wurstwaren (de) WAS Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Sergio Manzi]

OK, sorry, a lot of typos... it's all salumeria (singular) and salumerie 
(plural)!

On 2018-12-06 13:39, Sergio Manzi wrote:
>
> Martin,
>
> I see you have "/spawned/" my comment from another thread into this thread.
>
> I take for granted your good willingness in doing that, but you'll forgive me 
> if I will not partecipate to this specific discussion.
>
> My original intention was not to find an acceptable English name for a 
> salumeria, but to underline how the details of the world diversity and the 
> sensibilities, traditions and cultures of different peoples can hardly be 
> constrained within terms taken from a single language (/independently on how 
> "flexible" one can percieve it/).
>
> Cheers,
>
> Sergio
>
> P.S.: I'm quite sure a salmeria, a charcuterie and a wurstwaren are different 
> "things" although responding to the same basic need (/to have a place where 
> to buy something good to eat!/): /salamerie /have centuries of history in 
> Italy (/probably a millennium or more/) and I'm not willng to dilute their 
> history with the history of different similar places.
>
>
> On 2018-12-06 09:44, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>>
>>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>> On 5. Dec 2018, at 22:08, Sergio Manzi mailto:s...@smz.it>> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> P.S.: ... but if I want my /salumeria /to show up on the map, I *have to* 
>>> "/lie for the rendering/" and tag it as a shop=deli: but'I'm not happy at 
>>> all...
>>
>>
>> no you don’t have to, it will rather be counterproductive, because if 
>> everybody does like this they will never reach the limit that the rendering 
>> team will consider rendering them.
>>
>> A dictionary lookup suggests “cold_cut”, are there any native speakers who 
>> know what a salumeria is and if that term could work/apply ?
>>
>> Cheers, Martin 
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Sergio Manzi]

Eugene, those are "/proper names/" and as such they are untranslatable, and 
that's exactly why to put a category name within a proper name is "/a very bad 
idea (tm)/". But if a proper name happens to have a category has part of its 
proper name, just leave it alone... no problem...

Cheers!

Sergio


On 2018-12-06 13:30, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
> And how would you translate into French such American waterway=stream's as  
> “Bull Run”, “Walker Creek”, “Johnson’s Brook”, etc. 
>
> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 15:25, Eugene Podshivalov  >:
>
> Sergio,
>
> how would you make up the name for one of yours пруд or копанка in 
> English?  
>
> Let me please answer your question with a question
> How to you translate your French highway=residential's into in English 
> like "Cité Pasteur", "Rue André Bru", "Voie des Roses" etc?
>
> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 15:17, Eugene Podshivalov  >:
>
> I am pursonally not in favour of the solution with category names in 
> the "name" but have mentioned it because it is currently used in every 
> country for highway=residential ways.
>
> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 15:08, Sergio Manzi  >:
>
> That's (/quite obviously I would say.../) not a solution: all it 
> does is to move the problem from one place to another: how would you make up 
> the name for one of yoursпруд or копанка in English?
>
>
> On 2018-12-06 12:51, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
>> Another solution is to always put category name into "name" 
>> field. "Paris" would become "City of Paris" or "Paris city".
>> And the renderers will need to decide how to cut the category 
>> word from some names in order not to display then on the map or another 
>> ready-to-use tag will need to be inroduce which would contain just "Paris" 
>> in it.
>>
>> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 13:52, Simon Poole > >:
>>
>> Just to inject a bit of OT here
>>
>> - the EN name of the Vierwaldstättersee is Lake Lucerne
>>
>> - the literal translation is "lake of the four forest 
>> settlements" (only
>> loosely related to the notion of cantons)
>>
>> In both cases naming the lake  "Lucerne" or 
>> "Vierwaldstätten" would
>> obviously be nonsense.
>>
>> Simon
>>
>> Am 05.12.2018 um 19:55 schrieb marc marc:
>> > Le 05. 12. 18 à 19:36, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
>> >> The name tag is abused very often and systematically. 
>> >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
>> > just because a hotel's name contains the word hotel does 
>> not necessarily
>> > mean it is a false name. Some names are "hotêl abc" and 
>> not "abc"
>> >
>> > the same for the lakes.
>> > the lake near Geneva (France/Switzerland) is indeed called 
>> "Léman"
>> > and it is a tautology (an error) to say Lake Léman.
>> > But the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called 
>> the "lake of
>> > the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 
>> cantons" are located,
>> > he don't understand what you're talking about because that 
>> not its name.
>> > ___
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>> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
>> 
>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Salumeria(it) / charcuterie(fr) / Wurstwaren (de) WAS Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Sergio Manzi]

Martin,

I see you have "/spawned/" my comment from another thread into this thread.

I take for granted your good willingness in doing that, but you'll forgive me 
if I will not partecipate to this specific discussion.

My original intention was not to find an acceptable English name for a 
salumeria, but to underline how the details of the world diversity and the 
sensibilities, traditions and cultures of different peoples can hardly be 
constrained within terms taken from a single language (/independently on how 
"flexible" one can percieve it/).

Cheers,

Sergio

P.S.: I'm quite sure a salmeria, a charcuterie and a wurstwaren are different 
"things" although responding to the same basic need (/to have a place where to 
buy something good to eat!/): /salamerie /have centuries of history in Italy 
(/probably a millennium or more/) and I'm not willng to dilute their history 
with the history of different similar places.


On 2018-12-06 09:44, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 5. Dec 2018, at 22:08, Sergio Manzi mailto:s...@smz.it>> 
> wrote:
>
>> P.S.: ... but if I want my /salumeria /to show up on the map, I *have to* 
>> "/lie for the rendering/" and tag it as a shop=deli: but'I'm not happy at 
>> all...
>
>
> no you don’t have to, it will rather be counterproductive, because if 
> everybody does like this they will never reach the limit that the rendering 
> team will consider rendering them.
>
> A dictionary lookup suggests “cold_cut”, are there any native speakers who 
> know what a salumeria is and if that term could work/apply ?
>
> Cheers, Martin 
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 6. Dec 2018, at 13:17, Eugene Podshivalov  wrote:
> 
> I am pursonally not in favour of the solution with category names in the 
> "name" but have mentioned it because it is currently used in every country 
> for highway=residential ways.


there is no way we could/would change the definition of the name tag. 
It is for the name, whether that comprises a “category name” or not depends on 
the culture/language and instance, whether or not the category is part of the 
name (Deutschland, United Kingdom, United States of America, to name a few 
obvious, Bodensee, Lake Erie, Lago di Como, New York City, Feldberg, Mont 
Blanc, )  has to be decided with solid knowledge of the language and 
context, on an individual basis.


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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Eugene Podshivalov]

And how would you translate into French such American waterway=stream's as
“Bull Run”, “Walker Creek”, “Johnson’s Brook”, etc.

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 15:25, Eugene Podshivalov :

> Sergio,
>>
>> how would you make up the name for one of yours пруд or копанка in
>> English?
>
> Let me please answer your question with a question
> How to you translate your French highway=residential's into in English
> like "Cité Pasteur", "Rue André Bru", "Voie des Roses" etc?
>
> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 15:17, Eugene Podshivalov :
>
>> I am pursonally not in favour of the solution with category names in the
>> "name" but have mentioned it because it is currently used in every country
>> for highway=residential ways.
>>
>> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 15:08, Sergio Manzi :
>>
>>> That's (*quite obviously I would say...*) not a solution: all it does
>>> is to move the problem from one place to another: how would you make up the
>>> name for one of yours пруд or копанка in English?
>>>
>>> On 2018-12-06 12:51, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
>>>
>>> Another solution is to always put category name into "name" field.
>>> "Paris" would become "City of Paris" or "Paris city".
>>> And the renderers will need to decide how to cut the category word from
>>> some names in order not to display then on the map or another ready-to-use
>>> tag will need to be inroduce which would contain just "Paris" in it.
>>>
>>> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 13:52, Simon Poole :
>>>
 Just to inject a bit of OT here

 - the EN name of the Vierwaldstättersee is Lake Lucerne

 - the literal translation is "lake of the four forest settlements" (only
 loosely related to the notion of cantons)

 In both cases naming the lake  "Lucerne" or "Vierwaldstätten" would
 obviously be nonsense.

 Simon

 Am 05.12.2018 um 19:55 schrieb marc marc:
 > Le 05. 12. 18 à 19:36, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
 >> The name tag is abused very often and systematically.
 >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
 > just because a hotel's name contains the word hotel does not
 necessarily
 > mean it is a false name. Some names are "hotêl abc" and not "abc"
 >
 > the same for the lakes.
 > the lake near Geneva (France/Switzerland) is indeed called "Léman"
 > and it is a tautology (an error) to say Lake Léman.
 > But the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of
 > the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are
 located,
 > he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its
 name.
 > ___
 > Tagging mailing list
 > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
 > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

 ___
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 Tagging@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Eugene Podshivalov]

Sergio,
>
> how would you make up the name for one of yours пруд or копанка in English
> ?

Let me please answer your question with a question
How to you translate your French highway=residential's into in English like
"Cité Pasteur", "Rue André Bru", "Voie des Roses" etc?

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 15:17, Eugene Podshivalov :

> I am pursonally not in favour of the solution with category names in the
> "name" but have mentioned it because it is currently used in every country
> for highway=residential ways.
>
> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 15:08, Sergio Manzi :
>
>> That's (*quite obviously I would say...*) not a solution: all it does is
>> to move the problem from one place to another: how would you make up the
>> name for one of yours пруд or копанка in English?
>>
>> On 2018-12-06 12:51, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
>>
>> Another solution is to always put category name into "name" field.
>> "Paris" would become "City of Paris" or "Paris city".
>> And the renderers will need to decide how to cut the category word from
>> some names in order not to display then on the map or another ready-to-use
>> tag will need to be inroduce which would contain just "Paris" in it.
>>
>> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 13:52, Simon Poole :
>>
>>> Just to inject a bit of OT here
>>>
>>> - the EN name of the Vierwaldstättersee is Lake Lucerne
>>>
>>> - the literal translation is "lake of the four forest settlements" (only
>>> loosely related to the notion of cantons)
>>>
>>> In both cases naming the lake  "Lucerne" or "Vierwaldstätten" would
>>> obviously be nonsense.
>>>
>>> Simon
>>>
>>> Am 05.12.2018 um 19:55 schrieb marc marc:
>>> > Le 05. 12. 18 à 19:36, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
>>> >> The name tag is abused very often and systematically.
>>> >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
>>> > just because a hotel's name contains the word hotel does not
>>> necessarily
>>> > mean it is a false name. Some names are "hotêl abc" and not "abc"
>>> >
>>> > the same for the lakes.
>>> > the lake near Geneva (France/Switzerland) is indeed called "Léman"
>>> > and it is a tautology (an error) to say Lake Léman.
>>> > But the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of
>>> > the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are
>>> located,
>>> > he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its
>>> name.
>>> > ___
>>> > Tagging mailing list
>>> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Tagging mailing list
>>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>
>>
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>>
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>>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Eugene Podshivalov]

I am pursonally not in favour of the solution with category names in the
"name" but have mentioned it because it is currently used in every country
for highway=residential ways.

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 15:08, Sergio Manzi :

> That's (*quite obviously I would say...*) not a solution: all it does is
> to move the problem from one place to another: how would you make up the
> name for one of yours пруд or копанка in English?
>
> On 2018-12-06 12:51, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
>
> Another solution is to always put category name into "name" field. "Paris"
> would become "City of Paris" or "Paris city".
> And the renderers will need to decide how to cut the category word from
> some names in order not to display then on the map or another ready-to-use
> tag will need to be inroduce which would contain just "Paris" in it.
>
> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 13:52, Simon Poole :
>
>> Just to inject a bit of OT here
>>
>> - the EN name of the Vierwaldstättersee is Lake Lucerne
>>
>> - the literal translation is "lake of the four forest settlements" (only
>> loosely related to the notion of cantons)
>>
>> In both cases naming the lake  "Lucerne" or "Vierwaldstätten" would
>> obviously be nonsense.
>>
>> Simon
>>
>> Am 05.12.2018 um 19:55 schrieb marc marc:
>> > Le 05. 12. 18 à 19:36, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
>> >> The name tag is abused very often and systematically.
>> >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
>> > just because a hotel's name contains the word hotel does not
>> necessarily
>> > mean it is a false name. Some names are "hotêl abc" and not "abc"
>> >
>> > the same for the lakes.
>> > the lake near Geneva (France/Switzerland) is indeed called "Léman"
>> > and it is a tautology (an error) to say Lake Léman.
>> > But the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of
>> > the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are
>> located,
>> > he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its name.
>> > ___
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Sergio Manzi]

That's (/quite obviously I would say.../) not a solution: all it does is to 
move the problem from one place to another: how would you make up the name for 
one of yoursпруд or копанка in English?


On 2018-12-06 12:51, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
> Another solution is to always put category name into "name" field. "Paris" 
> would become "City of Paris" or "Paris city".
> And the renderers will need to decide how to cut the category word from some 
> names in order not to display then on the map or another ready-to-use tag 
> will need to be inroduce which would contain just "Paris" in it.
>
> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 13:52, Simon Poole  >:
>
> Just to inject a bit of OT here
>
> - the EN name of the Vierwaldstättersee is Lake Lucerne
>
> - the literal translation is "lake of the four forest settlements" (only
> loosely related to the notion of cantons)
>
> In both cases naming the lake  "Lucerne" or "Vierwaldstätten" would
> obviously be nonsense.
>
> Simon
>
> Am 05.12.2018 um 19:55 schrieb marc marc:
> > Le 05. 12. 18 à 19:36, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> >> The name tag is abused very often and systematically. 
> >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
> > just because a hotel's name contains the word hotel does not necessarily
> > mean it is a false name. Some names are "hotêl abc" and not "abc"
> >
> > the same for the lakes.
> > the lake near Geneva (France/Switzerland) is indeed called "Léman"
> > and it is a tautology (an error) to say Lake Léman.
> > But the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of
> > the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are located,
> > he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its name.
> > ___
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> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Marc Gemis]

> Another solution is to always put category name into "name" field. "Paris" 
> would become "City of Paris" or "Paris city".
> And the renderers will need to decide how to cut the category word from some 
> names in order not to display then on the map or another ready-to-use tag 
> will need to be inroduce which would contain just "Paris" in it.

that's the world upside down.
You have to analyse the tags we put on the object
(natural=water;water=lake or place=town, etc.). You can query all
those tags.
Many items do not have detail descriptions via the tags (e.g. just
amenity=school and no isced:level), because mappers are not
interested, do not know the detail or do not know they can add those
details.

At this moment I see no interest in something like education 2.0
(available as a rejected proposal on the wiki) which tries to get rid
of amenity=school and replace that with a number of tags that breaks
up a object representing a school in smaller characteristics. Those
pieces together formed a "school".
But as said, many mapper do not add details and the proposal would
mean they have to add detail or go with something less than school , a
place of education. I would not only put a burden on mappers, but also
on all dataconsumers that what to provide a simple search for "driving
school", because you have to specify x number of characteristics
instead of just 1.

Over time we will add more information and all schools will have e.g.
isced:levels, etc. Perhaps this will still not be enough to
differentiate between Lycée and Atheneum, but I question whether OSM
alone should be the place to put all this information.
I do not believe that OSM should be the place to explain to any
researcher what the difference is between Lycée and atheneum. Another
database, perhaps Wikidata can be used for that. When OSM and Wikidata
are linked in one way or another you could query the combination of
databases and group schools in any way you want.

m.

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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Eugene Podshivalov]

Another solution is to always put category name into "name" field. "Paris"
would become "City of Paris" or "Paris city".
And the renderers will need to decide how to cut the category word from
some names in order not to display then on the map or another ready-to-use
tag will need to be inroduce which would contain just "Paris" in it.

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 13:52, Simon Poole :

> Just to inject a bit of OT here
>
> - the EN name of the Vierwaldstättersee is Lake Lucerne
>
> - the literal translation is "lake of the four forest settlements" (only
> loosely related to the notion of cantons)
>
> In both cases naming the lake  "Lucerne" or "Vierwaldstätten" would
> obviously be nonsense.
>
> Simon
>
> Am 05.12.2018 um 19:55 schrieb marc marc:
> > Le 05. 12. 18 à 19:36, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> >> The name tag is abused very often and systematically.
> >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
> > just because a hotel's name contains the word hotel does not necessarily
> > mean it is a false name. Some names are "hotêl abc" and not "abc"
> >
> > the same for the lakes.
> > the lake near Geneva (France/Switzerland) is indeed called "Léman"
> > and it is a tautology (an error) to say Lake Léman.
> > But the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of
> > the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are located,
> > he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its name.
> > ___
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> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
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Re: [Tagging] Tourism=attraction: feature or secondary tag?

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 06.12.2018 o 10:47, Christoph Hormann pisze:
> On Thursday 06 December 2018, Yves wrote:
>> tourism=attraction can be added to a lot of features indeed, that's
>> why I think the label rendering in OSM-carto is a good idea because
>> you will probably never find a common rendering to encompass this
>> variety.
> Your desire for this is somewhat understandable - but this clashes with 
> the current documented goals of OSM-Carto and the aim of OSM to map the 
> verifiable geography and not subjective opinions.


The desire to make everything objective and measurable is also clear,
but it's also not a hard requirement. Both documented goals of OSM Carto
and verifiability rule are written to suggest some actions and guide
people, but not to rule out everything else. Which is good, because
there are many hard to verify objects (like country borders or highway
types) and other goals which are not explicitly written.


>> But on another topic, where does the idea of 'primary' and
>> 'secondary' tags I read here and there and more and more often comes
>> from? Are we making a map of the world in its complexity or what?
>> Yves
> Secondary tags refers to tags that have no distinct meaning on their 
> own.  Think of a feature that has an 'access=no' tag or


Only some of them. There are also secondary tags which are perfectly
clear and the only reason they are secondary is that documentation
requires using something else with them, for example:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:memorial


-- 
"Excuse me, I have some growing up to do" [P. Gabriel]



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Re: [Tagging] Salumeria(it) / charcuterie(fr) / Wurstwaren (de) WAS Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Do., 6. Dez. 2018 um 11:30 Uhr schrieb Johnparis :

> In hindsight, it might have been better to use shop=meat instead of
> shop=butcher for a store that sells meat. But that was decided long ago.
>



I am not sure about the British situation, but a German butcher is
typically a place that sells not just raw meat, but also cold cuts,
sausages, all kind of "Wurst", salads (the ones with mayonaise), often also
cooked meat e.g. at lunch time (usually take away or to eat standing), and
maybe will prepare sandwiches. In Italy a butcher only sells meat and raw
sausages for roasting (not the kind of already cooked stuff, like "Wiener
Würstel"). Generally you will not get something to directly eat at an
Italian butcher, you'll have to cook it first. A German butcher is quite
like an Italian salumeria and butcher in one shop.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Simon Poole]

Just to inject a bit of OT here

- the EN name of the Vierwaldstättersee is Lake Lucerne

- the literal translation is "lake of the four forest settlements" (only
loosely related to the notion of cantons)

In both cases naming the lake  "Lucerne" or "Vierwaldstätten" would
obviously be nonsense.

Simon

Am 05.12.2018 um 19:55 schrieb marc marc:
> Le 05. 12. 18 à 19:36, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
>> The name tag is abused very often and systematically.  
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
> just because a hotel's name contains the word hotel does not necessarily 
> mean it is a false name. Some names are "hotêl abc" and not "abc"
>
> the same for the lakes.
> the lake near Geneva (France/Switzerland) is indeed called "Léman"
> and it is a tautology (an error) to say Lake Léman.
> But the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of 
> the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are located, 
> he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its name.
> ___
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Re: [Tagging] Salumeria(it) / charcuterie(fr) / Wurstwaren (de) WAS Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Johnparis]

To add to Dave's comment, what an American thinks of as a deli (or a New
Yorker anyway) is quite different from what the tag shop=deli is for,
according to the wiki. To its credit, the wiki makes that clear.

To a New Yorker, there are two kinds of deli. The first, like the Broadway
Deli or the Second Avenue Deli, is a sit-down place where you can order a
sandwich big enough to feed a family of four, with kosher pickles on the
side. The wiki says that's a restaurant.

The second is a place that sells cold cuts, salads, refrigerated soft
drinks, sandwiches, and probably candy. The wiki says that's a convenience
shop.

A deli, according to the wiki, is what an American thinks of as a gourmet
food shop. That's the classic (European) definition as well.

In hindsight, it might have been better to use shop=meat instead of
shop=butcher for a store that sells meat. But that was decided long ago.

John


On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 11:09 AM Dave Swarthout 
wrote:

> I have no idea how to tag a shop selling *salumeri*  but I do know that
> shop=butcher and butcher=pork is totally wrong for a shop that sells cold
> cuts. Johnparis is quite right that a butcher is someone who slices and
> packages raw meat. In American English, the closest approximation for a
> shop selling assorted cold cuts is deli. It's very unlikely that a butcher
> would ever be involved in a deli operation.
>
> Dave
>
> On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 4:29 PM Johnparis  wrote:
>
>> Cold cut, in American English anyway, is any sliced meat that is packaged
>> and sold chilled. Often pork based (ham and sausages like bologna are
>> popular) but also other meats like turkey.
>>
>> shop=butcher + butcher=pork is what the wiki suggests.
>>
>> I personally think of a butcher as someone who slices and packages raw
>> meat, but the wiki is clear that shop=butcher is for any sort of meat shop.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 9:46 AM Martin Koppenhoefer <
>> dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> sent from a phone
>>>
>>> On 5. Dec 2018, at 22:08, Sergio Manzi  wrote:
>>>
>>> P.S.: ... but if I want my *salumeria *to show up on the map, I *have
>>> to* "*lie for the rendering*" and tag it as a shop=deli: but'I'm not
>>> happy at all...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> no you don’t have to, it will rather be counterproductive, because if
>>> everybody does like this they will never reach the limit that the rendering
>>> team will consider rendering them.
>>>
>>> A dictionary lookup suggests “cold_cut”, are there any native speakers
>>> who know what a salumeria is and if that term could work/apply ?
>>>
>>> Cheers, Martin
>>>
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> --
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> Homer, Alaska
> Chiang Mai, Thailand
> Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Salumeria(it) / charcuterie(fr) / Wurstwaren (de) WAS Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Dave Swarthout]

I have no idea how to tag a shop selling *salumeri*  but I do know that
shop=butcher and butcher=pork is totally wrong for a shop that sells cold
cuts. Johnparis is quite right that a butcher is someone who slices and
packages raw meat. In American English, the closest approximation for a
shop selling assorted cold cuts is deli. It's very unlikely that a butcher
would ever be involved in a deli operation.

Dave

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 4:29 PM Johnparis  wrote:

> Cold cut, in American English anyway, is any sliced meat that is packaged
> and sold chilled. Often pork based (ham and sausages like bologna are
> popular) but also other meats like turkey.
>
> shop=butcher + butcher=pork is what the wiki suggests.
>
> I personally think of a butcher as someone who slices and packages raw
> meat, but the wiki is clear that shop=butcher is for any sort of meat shop.
>
> John
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 9:46 AM Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>> On 5. Dec 2018, at 22:08, Sergio Manzi  wrote:
>>
>> P.S.: ... but if I want my *salumeria *to show up on the map, I *have to*
>> "*lie for the rendering*" and tag it as a shop=deli: but'I'm not happy
>> at all...
>>
>>
>>
>> no you don’t have to, it will rather be counterproductive, because if
>> everybody does like this they will never reach the limit that the rendering
>> team will consider rendering them.
>>
>> A dictionary lookup suggests “cold_cut”, are there any native speakers
>> who know what a salumeria is and if that term could work/apply ?
>>
>> Cheers, Martin
>>
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Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Eugene Podshivalov]

description - is used for other purposes already - it lets you describe an
object in free manner which can be several sentances long.

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 12:50, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

> On 06/12/18 20:25, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
>
> Let me clarify the meaning of those Russian words
> "пруд" - is usually a natural but modified by a man body of water which is
> smaller than lake. this is usually translated as "pond"
> "копанка" - is a very small body of water, escavated by an individual
> family for private fishing, usually of a square shape about 10x20 meters in
> size.
>
> Making additional subcategories makes sense only when they are commonly
> recognized.
> Adding language sepecific tag would work better here in my mind:
> water=pond + water:ru=копанка
> this way we preserve the generic categorization and let it be expanded for
> local purpose.
>
> With regards to "озеро" (lake) it is even more complecated. In Russian we
> may call "озеро" both natural and man-modified bodies of water.
> So both water=lake and water=pond can be called "озеро".
> The afore-mentioned solution could solve it:
> water=lake + water:ru=озеро
> water=pond + water:ru=озеро
>
> Another solution as suggested in the original post is to introduce some
> generic (category independent) tag like "name:prefix/postfix" or
> "type:" etc. for such things.
>
>
> Please.. not 'type'.
>
> How about using 'description' ...
> description:ru=копанка
> description:ru=пруд
> description:ru=озеро
>
> ???
>
>
> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 04:17, Joseph Eisenberg > >:
>> For example, in America we can call a waterway=stream a “brook”, “creek”,
>> “run” and several other things. These waterways will be tagged
>> waterway=stream or =river (depending on size) with name=“Bull Run”,
>> =“Walker Creek”, =“Johnson’s Brook”, etc.
>> We don’t use waterway=creek or waterway=run because there is no
>> consistent difference between these. In fact in Standard British English a
>> Creek is often a tidal channel in a salt marsh or mangroves.
>
> If you put “brook”, “creek”, “run” etc. in the name field you will
> get tautology in search results like: "stream Blue creek". So either all
> objects should have their category in the name field and the search engine
> will not add anything or no objects should have category in the name fields
> and the search engine will take the category from some other field and
> append it to name.
> E.g. assume you have name=Blue + waterway=stream + waterway:en=creek, you
> search for "Blue" and get "Blue creek".
>
> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 10:26, Johnparis :
>
>> Thanks, Michal. Following that link led me to:
>>
>> shop=butcher + butcher=pork
>>
>> which specifically mentions charcuterie. Presumably covers this too.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:18 AM Michal Fabík 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 10:03 PM Sergio Manzi  wrote:
>>> > I have the same problem for some shop categories which are not part of
>>> the US/UK tradition: an Italian "salumeria" [1] is in no way similar to a
>>> US "deli" shop...
>>>
>>> Hi, the wiki specifically mentions this and suggests a different way
>>> of tagging American delis:
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Ddeli
>>>
>>> --
>>> Michal Fabík
>>>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Warin]

On 06/12/18 20:25, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:

Let me clarify the meaning of those Russian words
"пруд" - is usually a natural but modified by a man body of water 
which is smaller than lake. this is usually translated as "pond"
"копанка" - is a very small body of water, escavated by an individual 
family for private fishing, usually of a square shape about 10x20 
meters in size.


Making additional subcategories makes sense only when they are 
commonly recognized.

Adding language sepecific tag would work better here in my mind:
water=pond + water:ru=копанка
this way we preserve the generic categorization and let it be expanded 
for local purpose.


With regards to "озеро" (lake) it is even more complecated. In Russian 
we may call "озеро" both natural and man-modified bodies of water.

So both water=lake and water=pond can be called "озеро".
The afore-mentioned solution could solve it:
water=lake + water:ru=озеро
water=pond + water:ru=озеро

Another solution as suggested in the original post is to introduce 
some generic (category independent) tag like "name:prefix/postfix" or 
"type:" etc. for such things.


Please.. not 'type'.

How about using 'description' ...
description:ru=копанка
description:ru=пруд
description:ru=озеро

???


чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 04:17, Joseph Eisenberg
mailto:joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>>:
For example, in America we can call a waterway=stream a “brook”,
“creek”, “run” and several other things. These waterways will be
tagged waterway=stream or =river (depending on size) with
name=“Bull Run”, =“Walker Creek”, =“Johnson’s Brook”, etc.
We don’t use waterway=creek or waterway=run because there is no
consistent difference between these. In fact in Standard British
English a Creek is often a tidal channel in a salt marsh or mangroves.

If you put “brook”, “creek”, “run” etc. in the name field you will 
get tautology in search results like: "stream Blue creek". So either 
all objects should have their category in the name field and the 
search engine will not add anything or no objects should have category 
in the name fields and the search engine will take the category from 
some other field and append it to name.
E.g. assume you have name=Blue + waterway=stream + waterway:en=creek, 
you search for "Blue" and get "Blue creek".


чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 10:26, Johnparis >:


Thanks, Michal. Following that link led me to:

shop=butcher + butcher=pork

which specifically mentions charcuterie. Presumably covers this too.

Best,

John


On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:18 AM Michal Fabík
mailto:michal.fa...@gmail.com>> wrote:

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 10:03 PM Sergio Manzi mailto:s...@smz.it>> wrote:
> I have the same problem for some shop categories which are
not part of the US/UK tradition: an Italian "salumeria" [1] is
in no way similar to a US "deli" shop...

Hi, the wiki specifically mentions this and suggests a
different way
of tagging American delis:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Ddeli

-- 
Michal Fabík


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Re: [Tagging] Tourism=attraction: feature or secondary tag?

[Christoph Hormann]

On Thursday 06 December 2018, Yves wrote:
> tourism=attraction can be added to a lot of features indeed, that's
> why I think the label rendering in OSM-carto is a good idea because
> you will probably never find a common rendering to encompass this
> variety.

Your desire for this is somewhat understandable - but this clashes with 
the current documented goals of OSM-Carto and the aim of OSM to map the 
verifiable geography and not subjective opinions.

> But on another topic, where does the idea of 'primary' and
> 'secondary' tags I read here and there and more and more often comes
> from? Are we making a map of the world in its complexity or what?
> Yves

Secondary tags refers to tags that have no distinct meaning on their 
own.  Think of a feature that has an 'access=no' tag or 
an 'intermittent=yes' tag and no other tags - these do not make any 
sense on their own, the only get meaning together with other tags (like 
a highway or waterway tag in these cases).

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Tagging] Tourism=attraction: feature or secondary tag?

[Yves]

tourism=attraction can be added to a lot of features indeed, that's why I think 
the label rendering in OSM-carto is a good idea because you will probably never 
find a common rendering to encompass this variety.

But on another topic, where does the idea of 'primary' and 'secondary' tags I 
read here and there and more and more often comes from? Are we making a map of 
the world in its complexity or what?
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Re: [Tagging] Salumeria(it) / charcuterie(fr) / Wurstwaren (de) WAS Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Johnparis]

Cold cut, in American English anyway, is any sliced meat that is packaged
and sold chilled. Often pork based (ham and sausages like bologna are
popular) but also other meats like turkey.

shop=butcher + butcher=pork is what the wiki suggests.

I personally think of a butcher as someone who slices and packages raw
meat, but the wiki is clear that shop=butcher is for any sort of meat shop.

John


On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 9:46 AM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 5. Dec 2018, at 22:08, Sergio Manzi  wrote:
>
> P.S.: ... but if I want my *salumeria *to show up on the map, I *have to*
> "*lie for the rendering*" and tag it as a shop=deli: but'I'm not happy at
> all...
>
>
>
> no you don’t have to, it will rather be counterproductive, because if
> everybody does like this they will never reach the limit that the rendering
> team will consider rendering them.
>
> A dictionary lookup suggests “cold_cut”, are there any native speakers who
> know what a salumeria is and if that term could work/apply ?
>
> Cheers, Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Eugene Podshivalov]

Let me clarify the meaning of those Russian words
"пруд" - is usually a natural but modified by a man body of water which is
smaller than lake. this is usually translated as "pond"
"копанка" - is a very small body of water, escavated by an individual
family for private fishing, usually of a square shape about 10x20 meters in
size.

Making additional subcategories makes sense only when they are commonly
recognized.
Adding language sepecific tag would work better here in my mind:
water=pond + water:ru=копанка
this way we preserve the generic categorization and let it be expanded for
local purpose.

With regards to "озеро" (lake) it is even more complecated. In Russian we
may call "озеро" both natural and man-modified bodies of water.
So both water=lake and water=pond can be called "озеро".
The afore-mentioned solution could solve it:
water=lake + water:ru=озеро
water=pond + water:ru=озеро

Another solution as suggested in the original post is to introduce some
generic (category independent) tag like "name:prefix/postfix" or
"type:" etc. for such things.

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 04:17, Joseph Eisenberg :
> For example, in America we can call a waterway=stream a “brook”, “creek”,
> “run” and several other things. These waterways will be tagged
> waterway=stream or =river (depending on size) with name=“Bull Run”,
> =“Walker Creek”, =“Johnson’s Brook”, etc.
> We don’t use waterway=creek or waterway=run because there is no consistent
> difference between these. In fact in Standard British English a Creek is
> often a tidal channel in a salt marsh or mangroves.

If you put “brook”, “creek”, “run” etc. in the name field you will
get tautology in search results like: "stream Blue creek". So either all
objects should have their category in the name field and the search engine
will not add anything or no objects should have category in the name fields
and the search engine will take the category from some other field and
append it to name.
E.g. assume you have name=Blue + waterway=stream + waterway:en=creek, you
search for "Blue" and get "Blue creek".

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 10:26, Johnparis :

> Thanks, Michal. Following that link led me to:
>
> shop=butcher + butcher=pork
>
> which specifically mentions charcuterie. Presumably covers this too.
>
> Best,
>
> John
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:18 AM Michal Fabík 
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 10:03 PM Sergio Manzi  wrote:
>> > I have the same problem for some shop categories which are not part of
>> the US/UK tradition: an Italian "salumeria" [1] is in no way similar to a
>> US "deli" shop...
>>
>> Hi, the wiki specifically mentions this and suggests a different way
>> of tagging American delis:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Ddeli
>>
>> --
>> Michal Fabík
>>
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[Tagging] Salumeria(it) / charcuterie(fr) / Wurstwaren (de) WAS Re: Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 5. Dec 2018, at 22:08, Sergio Manzi  wrote:
> 
> P.S.: ... but if I want my salumeria to show up on the map, I have to "lie 
> for the rendering" and tag it as a shop=deli: but'I'm not happy at all...


no you don’t have to, it will rather be counterproductive, because if everybody 
does like this they will never reach the limit that the rendering team will 
consider rendering them.

A dictionary lookup suggests “cold_cut”, are there any native speakers who know 
what a salumeria is and if that term could work/apply ?

Cheers, Martin 

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