Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets
On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 3:34 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-05-11 17:10 GMT+02:00 Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com: In my experience, most places that sell pastries would be better tagged as bakery. Even if they only sell pastries (ie no bread), they do have to bake them, right? :) I wouldn't tag a place as bakery which doesn't sell bread. This is also in line with the osm wiki: A *bakery* is a shop selling bread. Bakeries normally bake fresh bread on the premises. Normally also sell pastries, cakes, etc. Often do fresh sandwiches or baguettes. Often do decorated cakes. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dbakery Besides that I am not really happy with the definition there, as it is very Britain / central European (German) centric. Baguettes or decorated cakes are particular kind of baked goods that won't be found all around the world in bakeries. The main purpose of a bakery is to make and sell bread. Whether they also sell pizza, or what kind of bread they sell, whether they also sell sweets, coca cola, milk, flowers, sunglasses or olive oil is secondary and should not (IMHO) appear in the main definition. Cheers, Martin And I would say the OSM wiki definition is wrong (and I tried to change it) and your experience is regional. I would tag a place selling only daily bread a bread store or bread bakery on first thought (just like the shops here refer to themselves in name and ads). In my region, a bakery foremost sells cakes, pastries, and/or specialty (dessert) breads, more often than not having no daily bread at all. If they mainly sell bread, bread is in the shop name to avoid confusion with what the general population thinks a bakery is. The country/region disagreements are why I threw up my hands on the proposal I created, knowing there was no agreement to be reached beyond the status quo definition. Despite citing current U.S. and British government, trade, business directory, and dictionary definitions baking a change, there were many that stuck with definitions that were more used in the first half of the twentieth century than now in England and the U.S.. During the debates it also became apparent a number of (but not all) web language translators also make the same mistake, using past rather than contemporary usages of some words. This terminology problem is the main reason I stopped recommending OSM to non-technical relatives and friends. I knew they would use current U.S. assumptions on what the terminology of the map meant and would be misled. I knew they would not use a map that, in their eyes, was inaccurate and sometimes flat out wrong. They are much better off using Google maps or Bing to find shops and services. This is also one of a few reasons why I largely stopped contributing to OSM: why pursue a scholarly effort that is of little use to the people I would most like to share my efforts with. Murry ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] surface=ground/dirt/earth
On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com wrote: It seems that: - if a surface can be grass or paved, asphalt, concrete, paving_stones, etc., then it seems the only reason to state the surface consists of ground is if it's unpaved and without vegetation, right? - the American usage of dirt (as in your car will get dirty) is a broad description for 3 more specific values: earth, gravel and compacted (different from loose gravel or soil) Ground has multiple meanings some of which are very broad. When speaking of I walk the ground, breaking ground (as in construction or farming), above ground, or below ground; it would seem to fit the Oxford definition of: the solid surface of the earth (world). The dictionary also gives a definition of ground as a generic term to be qualified, such as marshy ground. (And to muddle things, when you think it might mean a natural surface - the Oxford gives the (British) definition of the floor of a room.) Upon seeing surface=ground for a road, my first reaction is to wonder what is meant by that? Upon pondering, it is a land surface of the world that is not raised or improved but may be worn and could be almost any natural surface which may include ruts through vegetation. Of course I could ponder more and give another dozen definitions; many conflicting. Ground is a poor term because it has so many similar, but still different meanings (very ambiguous) when used to describe a surface; with its most common meaning being very general and not describing the material of the surface. As to American usage of dirt, the example is poor -- if you stick with the noun, not the related adjective, saying your pants have dirt on them would likely be interpreted as loam, clay, soil, or the like; not gravel. To me, a dirt road is most often a natural soil (clay, loam, sand, etc.). It may be compacted or graded. I would refer to a road surfaced with gravel as a gravel road. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tag proposal for soft play centres
A number of shopping malls in the U.S. have indoor playgrounds that consist of soft sculptures (vinyl or soft plastic over padded/flexible frames) amid padded flooring. They are free, not attended but cleaned regularly. A link to an article about such a playground: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2013/5/prweb10675755.htm .Would you mark these a soft-play centre under your proposal or how would you tag them? Murry On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 7:38 AM, Dominic Hosler dominichos...@gmail.comwrote: Due to child protection, you are generally not allowed to take pictures inside the soft-play centres. Also, any official pictures are copyrighted. In the proposal, I linked to a few websites of some soft play centres, where they have pictures, I hoped this would be fine. Soft play is as Jonathan said, padding not inflatables. Thanks, Dom On 23 October 2013 14:31, Jonathan Bennett jonobenn...@gmail.com wrote: On 23/10/2013 14:26, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: Would they qualify as soft play? No, that's a bouncy castle. Soft play is padding, not inflatables. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tag proposal for soft play centres
Soft Play and Softplay are registered trademarks in the United States with United States and International coverage. Trademarks held by this firm: http://www.softplay.com Murry ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to overcome lack of consensus
On Wed, Sep 18, 2013 at 7:49 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: ... IMHO if there is a definition in the wiki and someone then tags something with this tag you have to believe that he followed that definition, at least until you can find a consensus to change this definition. The most you should do is add a hint to the wiki that there is a similar tag in use and link to it, but you shouldn't imply that the similar tag has the exact same meaning as long as you don't know it for sure. After some experience with OSM maps, my first assumption on seeing a tag used is that the tagger used the meaning most in line with their personal experience. When tagging something, if a term comes up in the presets that has a meaning to the tagger, they use it - skipping terms that may be more accurate that are unfamiliar to them - and no consulting of the wiki. The tagger may look at another already tagged feature of the same type and reuse the tag. As a secondary measure, they scan the features page of the wiki, until they find an agreeable term and use it. As a last effort, they may read the wiki page and the OSM definition. The number of taggers that have read the wiki page for every tag before use they've ever used is likely minuscule. Unfortunately, personal experience is often incorrect or very localized. For all the words in a person's vocabulary, very few definitions were formally checked with a dictionary; most are (sometimes incorrect) interpretations for observed usage. . I have seen meanings for tags defended on the mailing list they were quite different from any dictionary, wikipedia, or other formal or common reference. I grew up with these and this is what it means. Relying o personal experience is dicey as members of the same immediate family can have different definitions for the same word. The use of localized meanings and terms results in a map not useful to those outside the locale when visiting - surely a poor state of affairs when one trusts OSM for local use, but switches to Google or other maps when outside your own locale because those maps have consistent meaning across locales. Some uniformity makes OSM that much more useful. Please do not sneeze at some need for consensus on tagging. Imagine an OSM that had 200 terms in use for similar entities and this existing for every tag in OSM; where traveling 50 miles meant looking up a new set of tags and definitions to use the map. Having 2 terms for the same entity is simply a smaller version of the problem. This points to the importance of attempting to pick terms that have a primary meaning on first glance that go with what it being tagged as opposed to a term where the intended meaning for the tag is deep in the multiple meanings of the word. Plot is a good example of a word that will mean different things to different taggers, so should be avoided. Given the convention of using British English, consulting the Oxford English dictionary (or Collins or other suitable British sourced dictionary) would be the conscientious methodology. Look at synonyms for less ambiguous terms. I would also look at American dictionaries to see if another term avoids British/American ambiguities (not always possible). Translation dictionaries are poor sources of definitions as they often loose the more common meanings of words or pick a little used meaning in trying to provide a concise definition. Some of the wiki pages give an OSM definition that varies form the more common and/or formal definition. In my view a weakness of OSM (but sometimes necessary). The comment was made of the problem of definitions that refer to outside sources that may change. I suspect when meaning changes outside OSM, the new meaning is more likely to be used by new taggers than the OSM definition. Users of OSM are unlikely to consult the wiki, many will be unaware of the wiki, so will use current common meaning for the tag. Language evolves, words come and go in popularity. Assuming OSM should not also adapt will result in OSM maps that read for future users like Chaucerian-English does now for current English readers (for those unfamiliar with Chaucer'ian English, it can only be read currently by experts or those with a dictionary). We do not want an OSM where as a casual user you not only need a legend of tags, but a definition for each. There is a bit of intransigence by some that limits changes that improve OSM. I think management of change and consensus building will be important to prevent (further) balkanization of OSM or it becoming irrelevant. OSM also trains the repeat user, so the OSM conventions can not be ignored. My expectation in searching OSM for a place that primarily sells ready-to-eat food is it will be found under amenity=restaurant,cafe,fast_food and I'll overlook businesses tagged another way. If I'm visiting and you want me to patronize your ready-to-eat seafood business, it should use one of the above amenity tags. Murry
Re: [Tagging] Tradeoff
Places devoted for general reuse of things are uncommon where I live in the U.S., so I do not know if there is a consensus term for them. I have seen reuse and recycle facility or reuse and recycle center used a number of times. These places accept things and materials and separate them into items purposed for reuse and those for recycling. The term reuse shelf is sometimes used for the area at these facilities that the public may go to to get reuse items for free. Since the area may or may not have shelves, I assume reuse shelf must have some general meaning to be paired with such areas. Items may be one or more of books, household items, sports equipment, paint, building materials or other items depending on the facility. Places for just reuse are very scarce, as most people would bring such items to a donation center such as Good Will where reusable items are resold or use Craig's List. For books specifically, the term free library has been used as can be seen in this news article: http://www.denverpost.com/ci_23135032/tiny-libraries-front-yards-across-colorado-inspire-love. The article has references to the Little Free Library movement which has over 5000 locations mapped (using google maps and a registration fee to be mapped). Little Free Library is a registered trademark so can not be used. Although used in this and other news articles I've seen, I think free library is easily misunderstood and the intention may be lending rather than swapping or reuse. It may be useful to differentiate between a policy of lending, swapping, or free to take by such places. As for the term used in OSM, reuse seems to be understood whereas I don't think tradeoff would be. If one must specifically leave something to get something, swap is commonly used in the U.S. +1 for the idea of leveraging the existing OSM recycle tagging -- perhaps by reuse :-) . Murry ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bakery,confectionery
An update on the proposal. Following a suggestion on the talk page, I have dropped sometimes from the proposal page and replaced it with conditional, a tag expressing more information and in greater use. A few other refinements have be made on the proposal page. After trial tagging with artisan and finding it useful for bakery, I will likely include artisan on the proposal page. Still considering dropping artisan_sweet as a confectionery type and introducing the artisan tag to the confectionery part of the proposal. Any objection? The concept of produced_on_site and/or outlet is useful, but still looking for feed back. Will one work without the other? Does outlet=no always mean produced_on_site? Having both allows ranking style tags: produced_on_site=most. As far as terminology, other than the Oxford dictionary, most reference sources do not use an at a discount qualifier to define outlet. Typical definition of outlet: a commercial establishment retailing the goods of a particular producer or wholesaler. Distinguishing between local and commercial outlets is useful. Is outlet=yes/no/local/commercial better of worse than local_outlet=yes/no, commercial_outlet=yes/no? Two other possibilities for the tag: supplier or producer with values [on_site], local, commercial; neither is really in use as a tag. Still leaning toward separate produced_on_site tag so it can be used with yes/only/most/some/few/no. If this remains muddy, I may put this as a discussion paragraph on the proposal page rather than an entry in the use with tag table. Any other feedback that would refine the proposal and remove objections before a vote would be appreciated. I will likely open the proposal for voting within the week, leaving off any unsettled Useful Combination tags. The link to the (revised) proposal page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal/Shop%3Dbakery,confectionery Murry ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] type for natural=tree (leaved - leafed)
On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 10:59 AM, John Sturdy jcg.stu...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jul 7, 2013 at 5:47 PM, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 07.07.2013 18:33, schrieb fly: Hey Could an BE-speaking person please tell me what the right spelling for broad_leafed is. Numbers are almost even in the data. Probably, a nice task for a bot. Sorry, numbers are towards leaved. On the other hand, I wonder if it is useful to use type=* and not tree_type=* or tree:type=* as type is the key for relations and it is not that good to use different meanings of one key. On further thought, I'd go for type=deciduous, rather than broad-lea[fv]ed. Not quite the same thing (I think larches are deciduous but not broad-leaved) but I think it's the normal technical term (the others being evergreen). __John +1 I suspect the intent was to tag deciduous trees rather than broadleaf(v)ed trees. There are a number of broadleaf evergreens. Good luck on leafed vs. leaved - some British dictionaries list one as a definition for the other :-) Murry (not a British English speaker) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bakery,confectionery
The proposal talk page has been rather inactive, a bit more discussion happening on the mailing list. I would like comment on the Additional tags section of the talk page where tags such as site_produced=yes/all/most/some/few/no, outlet=yes/commercial/local/no, artisan=yes/all/most/some/few/no are looked at as possible tags. Some of the other discussion makes me lean toward a mixed and baked on site for the site_produced tag with an understanding the artisan tag is the made from scratch indicator; but would like feedback and perhaps other ways made from scratch, mixed on site, baked on site, finish baked on site, etc. should be distinguished. After looking at an artisan tag for bakery, I'm wondering if I should use just two confectionery types of sweets and chocolates (dropping artisan_sweets) and adding an additional artisan tag to that page (with a slightly changed definition to drop the bakery specific examples)? On the main page of the proposal, I have updated the proposed new article pages with the right-side sidebar in common use on other pages. Murry On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Murry McEntire murry.mcent...@gmail.comwrote: A proposal for improving the current misleading definitions and misuse of bakeries and confectioneries and adding tags for the types of goods sold.is now ready for additional comment. This is a revised version of a proposal that was strongly voted down. The split of bakery shop types is gone, the diet: version of some tags is now used, and some additional cleanup was done. The link to the (revised) proposal page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal/Shop%3Dbakery,confectionery I'm be opening this for voting in a few days since this is a reopening of the commenting period started June 11th. I am interpreting the first vote as comment for a strong revision of the proposal. A link to the previous proposal version can be found on the talk page (comments tab). Thank you to those who participated in the discussion for shaping and adding ideas to the proposal. Thank you voters on the first version, it's good to see interested participation. Murry (user CS Mur) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bakery,confectionery
Please continue the development of useful tags for continental Europe. Since the U.S. has no laws regarding the title a bakery can use, the tags may be used infrequently here. I believe the same is true of the other English-speaking countries. We have truth in advertising laws, but it's a step harder to fill out a tag from placards in the shops or advertising than from a shop name. Someone mapping from photos of a strip mall would not know, so would hopefully avoid the tag as opposed to unsupported guesses. In OSM, I assume a lack of tag means unknown or uncertain, not a definitive no, unless the tag description says there is a default. I did create a section on the discussion page of the new version of the proposal where I pondered commercial_outlet=, outlet=, oven= and some others. Your graduated scale of values addresses what to do with a place that does both on-site production and imports products, though I might use yes/most/some/no. Looking through taginfo, I'm not finding much in the way of graduated values, except the sometimes value. I wonder how one would know the mix of baked on site versus imported for shops that display both the same way, i.e., no commercial bakery wrappers? Does use of commercial frozen dough or mixes matter? How would a tagger know? I'll assemble a list of talked about tags in the mentioned section of the proposal talk page. Discussion can continue either there or continue the mailing list. It's nice to have discussion organized on the talk page, but I notice it proceeds more actively on the mailing list. I can always reference threads or summarize mailing list discussion. Keep up the good work! Murry On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 2:15 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 12:09 AM, Jo winfi...@gmail.com wrote: But how would I indicate that it's a place which resells the bread baked elsewhere that same morning? Some successful bakers start an 'outlet' shop which looks just the same, but the bread needs to be transported there. The distinction is minor, but legally they are not allowed to call those extension outlets 'warme bakker'. I have the same type of issue for shop=farmhttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dfarm . * The original roadside produce stands sold in-season produce grown on the same property. * Now there are stands that mimic the look from the outside, but have no true connection to farm property (the produce comes from elsewhere, maybe thousands of kilometers away). How about: produced_on_site = yes/mostly/hardly/no or bread:origin = on_site/local/regional/national/global pastry:origin = on_site/local/regional/national/global - Baked on site is an important distinction. For amusement: In the USA much packaged bread is sold with a label or sticker reading Baked fresh daily or just Baked fresh. As if... there were some other way to bake bread? Baked fresh daily two weeks ago just does not have the same ring to it. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bakery,confectionery
I understand resistance to regional use pages where the same tags are used differently based on location, but a necessary evil in some case, e.g. highway tagging. That avoiding the practice is the best case. However, is there any problem with regional property tags; that is, tags used in one region to express an important concept or property of the entity tagged but little used (or maybe even understood) elsewhere? Would tags like euro_bakery=yes/no, euro_pastry=yes/no and each defined with the specifics of Bäckerei, Konditorei, forno, pasticceria, boulangerie , pâtisserie, etc. as appropriate be of any use? Murry ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - shop=bakery, bread_bakery, confectionery
I agree with you. The split was my attempt to be less U.S.-centric (or U.K., Canada, Australia -centric). In all those English-speaking countries, the primary choice to look for something in a business directory, web page search, name of business that sells bread is bakery, that sells cakes is bakery, that sells pastries is bakery, that sells baked goods is bakery. I was told by others there was a need to separate bread selling shops from shops that sell other bakery goods for other parts of the world. The English speaking can search other tags, so thought the division to accommodate other non-English-speaking areas might be acceptable. Should have known it would be a problem to go away from the primary use. A split at the shop level is problematical because almost all bakery shops in English-speaking countries carry multiple types of baked goods. I also considered a split where bakery meant bread primarily and other baked goods would have a shop designation of their own. Terminology was a problem. The British generally do not use the category pastry (in their business directories the categories are bakery or cakes, and cakes are a subset of bakery), cake shop generally means cakes-only elsewhere. I also think it would go down in flames like the current proposal has. The misleading (wrong) definitions still need to be fixed; replaced by definitions common to British (and other English) dictionaries and wikipedia. It does appear the sub tags are considered useful by many. Just bakery with sub tags, e.g., bread=yes/no/only will need to suffice for regions that need to distinguish between shops by the bakery products sold. I will end the voting now, put the current proposal back to draft status, and be back shortly with a modified proposal with just bakery and confectionery for a revote. Murry On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 9:49 AM, Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.comwrote: Based on voting thus far, this is a non-starter, mostly based on the new bread_bakery tag. I think there would be a lot more support if it only proposed to 1) clarify the confectionery tag, and 2) add the Types of Bakery Goods tags. Brad On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 4:53 AM, Martin Koppenhöfer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Am 26.06.2013 um 00:00 schrieb Murry McEntire murry.mcent...@gmail.com: A proposal for improving the current misleading definitions and misuse of bakery and confectionery; and a requested separation of bread bakeries from bakeries of other bakery goods, is now open for voting. IMHO your conclusions seem US-centric. Most of what is currently tagged as bakery will probably produce and sell bread and often also sweet bakery products, and adopting your proposal, those would all have to be retagged (including lots of tools to be changed, think of the pretzel icon) when the problem is actually with the tag confectionery (which some people use in accordance with the wiki for kinds of bakeries rather than for candy and chocolate shops). Instead of inventing a tag for bread bakeries we'd rather need a tag for bakeries that don't sell bread but sweet bakery products. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - shop=bakery, bread_bakery, confectionery
This proposal is being recalled from voting as the split of bakery types at the shop level is obviously a no-go. A modified version of the proposal that does not split bakery at the shop level will be put out for vote shortly. Murry On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 4:00 PM, Murry McEntire murry.mcent...@gmail.comwrote: A proposal for improving the current misleading definitions and misuse of bakery and confectionery; and a requested separation of bread bakeries from bakeries of other bakery goods, is now open for voting. The current wiki pages do not follow current British definitions and usage of the words (see Oxford British Dictionary, HM Revenue Customs, common .U.K. web usage, etc). They are also counter to definition and common usage in other English speaking nations (U.S., Canada, Australia). This results in confused use of the tags. See the Rationale section and talk page for further discussion and documentation of the problem. The proposal title is shop=bakery,bread_bakery,confectionery, but somehow was put as a Proposal/bread bakery directory and is found under S in the index as Proposal/bread bakery. :-) The link to the proposal page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal/bread_bakery The proposal came about from a discussion on the Tagging mailing list, that thread may be found at: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2013-June/013630.html Please read the thread for information on how the proposal go to its current form. Please check the proposal talk page (discussion tab) for issues that came up during the comment period. Kudos belong to those who participated in the discussion for shaping and adding ideas to what is the current proposal. Thank you fellow mappers! Murry (user CS Mur) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bakery,confectionery
A proposal for improving the current misleading definitions and misuse of bakeries and confectioneries and adding tags for the types of goods sold.isnow ready for additional comment. This is a revised version of a proposal that was strongly voted down. The split of bakery shop types is gone, the diet: version of some tags is now used, and some additional cleanup was done. The link to the (revised) proposal page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal/Shop%3Dbakery,confectionery I'm be opening this for voting in a few days since this is a reopening of the commenting period started June 11th. I am interpreting the first vote as comment for a strong revision of the proposal. A link to the previous proposal version can be found on the talk page (comments tab). Thank you to those who participated in the discussion for shaping and adding ideas to the proposal. Thank you voters on the first version, it's good to see interested participation. Murry (user CS Mur) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bakery,confectionery
I tried the split that made the most sense in the available common English terms, so I'm not sure how this could be handled. I would vote against any proposal for pastry_bakery or cake_bakery because I know they would not be used correctly by English speakers. Neither is inclusive of all non-bread bakery products. The British have no clear category for pastry shop and would not think to even look for it. They have bakeries and cake shops in their business directories and most the cake shops are double listed under bakery. An American might put a shop that specialized in cakes in cake_shop, but would put pastry, pie and other bakery goods shops in bakery. Pastry_shop in America would fail to gather cake shops. The American is going to search their business directory using bakery, then maybe look for sub-types. Both the British and Americans might opt for bakery instead of cake_bakery. even for cake shops. Even if aware of another term, any shop that sells both bread and non-bread bakery goods (that is the large majority of them in English-speaking nations) is going to be tagged bakery - even if four fifths of the floor space is non-bread. I try to pick tag names that a tagger and especially a user would be drawn to without ever seeing the OSM wiki; for the English speaking nations this seems to be bakery for any baked good. For those that do visit the wiki, I would expect moderate use of the sub tags for goods type. It certainly gives the local mappers something fun and tasty to survey for map entries. :-) How do you fight a basic definition in the language that says a bakery is a shop that sells bread, cakes, pastries and pies? If you could go back to the foundation of OSM and foresee your problem, bakery should never have been created; bread_bakery and non_bread_bakery should have. But even with these terms in existence, the British, American, Canadian, and Aussie taggers would still have created and used the tag bakery to model what they know. I suspect any split of bakery at the shop level is going to be voted down strongly by the native English-speaking. If the tags for product type are not sufficient for distinguishing between the two types you mention, perhaps a regional use page is needed for those countries, saying the English main feature page may only have bakery, but we do it this way in Germany? Murry On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 3:00 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/6/26 Murry McEntire murry.mcent...@gmail.com The link to the (revised) proposal page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal/Shop%3Dbakery,confectionery Murry, I think that this content is valuable, as it defines very well what can be considered a bakery, and what are typical products in the anglo saxon region, but what I would like are at least 2 main tags to represent what for you is a bakery, but for the German can be a Bäckerei or a Konditorei, for the Italian a forno or a pasticceria, for the French a boulangerie or a pâtisserie, etc. This is considered two different kinds of (similar) profession/craft/shop, often they are combined, but then they usually call themselves both (boulangerie-pâtisserie, Bäckerei-Konditorei, ...). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - shop=bakery, bread_bakery, confectionery
A proposal for improving the current misleading definitions and misuse of bakery and confectionery; and a requested separation of bread bakeries from bakeries of other bakery goods, is now open for voting. The current wiki pages do not follow current British definitions and usage of the words (see Oxford British Dictionary, HM Revenue Customs, common .U.K. web usage, etc). They are also counter to definition and common usage in other English speaking nations (U.S., Canada, Australia). This results in confused use of the tags. See the Rationale section and talk page for further discussion and documentation of the problem. The proposal title is shop=bakery,bread_bakery,confectionery, but somehow was put as a Proposal/bread bakery directory and is found under S in the index as Proposal/bread bakery. :-) The link to the proposal page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal/bread_bakery The proposal came about from a discussion on the Tagging mailing list, that thread may be found at: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2013-June/013630.html Please read the thread for information on how the proposal go to its current form. Please check the proposal talk page (discussion tab) for issues that came up during the comment period. Kudos belong to those who participated in the discussion for shaping and adding ideas to what is the current proposal. Thank you fellow mappers! Murry (user CS Mur) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Observations on use of the diet: tag
As part of the shop=bakery,bread_bakery,confectionery proposal voting, several have commented that the diet:diet_type=* tag should be used instead of diet_type=* tag (e.g., diet:gluten_free=* instead of gluten_free=*. Since the diet:diet_type did previously pass a formal vote, I'm inclined to listen but the case would be more convincing if the amenity=restaurant didn't list gluten_free=*, lactose_free=*, organic=* (as well as the diet=* tag) and if the diet=* web page listed diet:lactose_free and diet:organic as options. The restaurant page may explain why gluten_free=* is used more than diet:gluten_free=* in OSM (52 vs. 35). Is organic part of the diet: tag or does it stand alone? If tags are added to diet=*, I believe lactose_free is in common use whereas lacto_free is not so much. Also consider that a product made with lactose removed dairy would accurately be lactose_free but not lacto_free. Lactose content, not dairy origin, is the important tag for those with lactose intolerance. Is Lactofree being a brand name any reason to avoid likenesses (lacto_free) in OSM tags? I've got my hands full with my proposal (and Colorado fire area mapping), so someone else should straighten out use of the diet: tag on the wiki. Murry ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bakery, bread_bakery, confectionery
A proposal for improving the current misleading definitions and misuse of bakeries and confectioneries and adding needed separation of bread bakeries from bakeries of other bakery goods for some regions is now ready for comment. The title is shop=bakery,bread_bakery,confectionery, but somehow was put as a Proposal/bread bakery directory and is found under S in the index as Proposal/bread bakery. :-) The link to the proposal page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal/bread_bakery The proposal came about from a discussion on the Tagging mailing list, that thread may be found at: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2013-June/013630.html Please read the thread for information on how the proposal go to its current form. Kudos belong to those who participated in that discussion for shaping and adding ideas to what became the proposal. Thank you fellow mappers! Murry (user CS Mur) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 1:42 PM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.comwrote: This sounds like a reasonable compromise. Incidentally, I am an American and would not classify pastries and confections as the same thing, although one shop will sometimes sell both. I would tend to think of a bread shop as a shop that sells bread, and perhaps other baked goods, but does not do its own baking. Typically, these shops sell goods originating from a single industrial-scale bakery, and which have been returned by grocery stores after they did not sell, but which are still in good condition. Some tweaks to my proposal. Changing shop=bread to shop=bread_bakery should help with those who first think of an outlet store when seeing shop=bread and those that are reluctant to disassociate shops that sell bread from the term bakery. I'm also thinking the wiki pages for shop=bakery and shop=bread_bakery should have an explanation of the importance and special status that shops that sell the bread used as a staple have in continental Europe and some other regions of the world including some of the non-English terms used for them, e.g. backerei, boulangerie for a bread bakery. Addition of the sub tag bakery_outlet=yes which would be defined as a shop which may sell fresh products but specializes in the sale of bakery products nearing their freshness expiration. Sometimes called a day-old bakery shop. It is not uncommon in America for people wanting to save money to search for such stores since prices can be half that of grocery stores or other retail bakeries. I suspect such stores exist in other countries that have large commercial bakeries. The tag could be used with either bakery or bread_bakery, some I've been in do 90% of their business in bread (so shop=bread_bakery) and others do 50% bread and 50% donuts, cakes, cookies and pastries (so shop=bakery). I've not heard any one call change a bad idea or strenuously object to my latter proposal. I believe the next step for such changes to make it to the official wiki pages is to make a proposal page and go through a vote; (someone let me know if this is wrong). I'll start working on such a page and mock-ups of the changes to the current features page, the replacement shop=bakery and shop=confectionery pages, and the new shop=bread_bakery, bakery sub tags, and confectionery sub tags pages. Any pages I've overlooked? Should be fun! (I have not really done any wiki editing or work before.) It seems it may be useful to have bakery sub tags for regulatory reasons or entrenched custom for the European region where a shop can only have a specific name if a certified professional is employed or the goods must be created on premises. I would need help with those and would expect them to be explained and justified in this email thread or the discussion page of the proposal when it is up. Murry ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
Note: I'm using on-line translation dictionaries. Please correct or clarify any non-English word misuse. I have tried to learn other languages, but find I am not adept at language skills. I know dictionaries can be misleading or wrong from experience. Years ago I ate in a Munich restaurant where the menus did not have translations and was the only place I encountered while in Germany where none of the staff spoke English. Fortunately the menu had pictures so I pointed at my main course then tried to order a soda pop. I tried three terms from my guidebook and none were understood. A couple dining at the restaurant that spoke a tiny bit of English tried to help and I ended up with tonic water. Ugh. (The main course was delicious.) I was informed later by a German associate that any of the terms would have worked in Berlin, but the guidebook had used regional terms that were a poor choice for Germany as a whole. A summary as I understand it: We currently have English labels and definitions used for tags for bakery and confectionery that have language translation mismatches, especially based on common usage of the words. English cultures are comfortable using one term for shops of any type bakery goods (bakery), but continental Europeans are not. There may be regulatory reasons in Europe for not grouping them as a whole. Some specifics: The English definitions for the tags are misleading or wrong. Defining a bakery as sells bread is highly misleading. It is more likely to be understood by common usage as a cake or pastry shop. Listing pastry as a product of a confectionery is wrong as the term means candy or chocolates shop. Pastries are bakery goods. backeri, boulangerie are linked to bakery, when a much more appropriate choice would have been bread shop. kondertorei, feinbakdere, patisserie, viennoiseries may be linked to confectionery when the most accurate choice would have been bakery, English usage, common meanings and problems with technical/translation definitions: Americans first look to bakery (in directories, legends, web searches, ...) for any type of bakery product. It appears the United Kingdom, Canada, and Australia do the same (or for bakers). Americans then may look for sub classes such as bread, cakes, pastry. Americans commonly refer to bread shops, as in I'm going to the bread store, but often call them bakeries. Americans have understanding of cake shop, pastry shop, pie shop; but often reference them by the more general I'm going to the bakeryAmericans have no commonly used term for shops that sell all types of non-bread bakery goods other than bakery. Cakes and pastries are generally thought to be different things (perhaps because one is made with batter and one with pastry (literally paste) dough), but some (nations) see pastries as a subset of cakes and other see cakes as a subset of pastries. Pastry to Americans means sweet bakery items made primarily from pastry dough. Secondary meanings can include pies, tarts and quiches, or meat pies. Items made from batters or various bread doughs are generally not considered pastries Although some of the translation dictionaries linked non-English terms for pastry to confectionery, this is an esoteric linking and should not be used. The translation definition I received for konditorei was cake shop, confectioners shop, the second of which is wrong unless konitorei commonly specialize in zuckeri and konfekt. I do not believe they do? Since the translation dictionaries lacked specifics, I'm assuming feinbackerei, konditorei and patisserie can be interpreted as selling most kinds of non-bread bakery goods. Not so sure about viennoiseries which may be pastries only. A new proposed solution considering the most appropriate English definitions and the needs of both groups. A new category shop=bread be created. backerie, boulangerie should be linked to this shop. The English definition: a shop that specializes in selling breads. See also shop=bakery. Question: would a nationality cuisine sub tag be useful enough to mention for use? The category shop=bakery be retained; konditorei, feinbackerei, patisserie should be linked to this shop. It should also be used where both bread and non-bread bakery products sales are important, and when the specific baked good sold is unknown. A sub tag cuisine=nationality could be used but is optional and should only be used if the nationality differs from that of the location. The English definition: a shop that sells bakery goods such as cakes, pastries, pies, and bread. See also shop=bread. I would prefer not to define any other type of bakery goods shop, but I'll let the continental Europeans tell me if there is a need. Understand that if shop=pastry is added it would be defined to sell pastries (and perhaps pies or tarts) and point to the wikipedia page for pastries, so would not sell cakes, cookies or other bakery goods. If you need a distinct shop for all non-bread bakery goods; tagging with
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
A look at the English language business directory for Cairo Egypt shows two categories related to the discussion: Bakery Pastry Shops and Candy and Confectionery. They do not do sub categories, but allow the businesses to select keywords. Listings are few, so should not be considered a good sample. Businesses that focus on bread choose both bakery and bread as keywords. Bakery goods businesses that do not feature bread choose bakery and one or more of cake, cupcake, pastry, western dessert, muffin, and other keywords. Businesses that feature both bread and other baked goods use bakery in combination with other keywords. Businesses that sell bakery goods, candy, chocolates and ice_cream choose bakery as one of many key words. Web searches for Cairo bakeries and similar searches provide a lot more examples. Such results are similar to the business directory. A business using bakery in their web presence sells some sort of baked good, but not necessarily bread. The business directories and web presence, especially in English, are not representative of the many bazaar stalls and smaller shops. However the results above mesh with my experience on a trip to Cairo and Luxor. When speaking, a bread store was called a bakery, but the term was also used for bakeries that did not sell bread. In the most heavily tourist areas, English signs saying bakery were used for any kind of baked good. Most shops were not bread shops, but that would be expected for a tourist area. Outside the most heavily tourist areas, bread, non-bread, and combination shops are common. The shops I saw that did have English signs seemed to prefer to identify the products sold, e.g, bread, cakes, pastries, sweets to calling themselves a bakery. No idea how many of the shops I saw handled subsidized bread. I did not travel in any area where tourists would be a rarity. Extrapolating, an English speaking Egyptian would be comfortable calling shops selling any kind of baked good a bakery. They would first call a shop selling bread a bakery, but would (commonly) know what shop=bread meant. Murry ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
Given the split in opinions, I started thinking harder on an American usages page and wondered what other countries might use it. Now I'm wondering who wrote the features pages descriptions and got them wrong. I speculate that it was not an English-speaking country native. Using the Toronto Canada business directories as a source and visiting many business and reviews webpages: Under the Bakeries listings - shops that carry cakes, cookies, or pastries outnumber the shops that carry bread, cakes, cookies, and pastries. Very few shops specialize in bread only. Subcategory listings Pastry Shops, Cookies. Canadians seem comfortable putting cakes in the Pastry category but not cookies. Many webpages did distinguish between cakes and pastries. It was very clear that pastries and confections are considered different things. Businesses with Bakery in the name followed the same split as the business listings - places that sold bread only were a small minority. Using the Sydney Australia business pages and visiting many business and reviews webpages: The listing is typically Bakers (not Bakeries). Baker shops with cake and pastries outnumber those with bread, cake and pastries, which outnumber those selling bread alone. Subcategory listings Cake and Pastry Shops, Pizzas, Pies, Pasties and Sausage Rolls. The directories also allowed businesses to advertise product types. Pastry and cakes are distinct. Meat pies are very popular. Banana bread is popular enough to earn a products listing. Confections and pastries are different things. Businesses that used Bakery in the name were more likely not to sell bread, and those selling only bread were a small minority. Using the United Kingdom and London business directories and a number of business and reviews webpages. The listing in some is Retail Bakers, in others it is Bakery.. Baker shops featuring cakes, baker shops featuring sandwiches, and baker shops featuring bread and other products far outnumber the bread only shops. Subcategory listings Birthday Cakes, Wedding Cakes, Cupcakes, Sandwiches, Christening Cakes Webpages took more work as it was less common for a listed business to have its own webpage than in the previous countries or the U.S. though reviews of a business were common. Bakery is very commonly used in business names, but is a poor indicator of where to buy bread. They are more likely to be a cake or sandwich shop. (Sweet) Pastries are often a subcategory of cakes. When not a subcategory of cakes, they most often have meat in them. Confections and (sweet) pastries are different things. The term favours sometimes included confections and was used in its place It was interesting I did not encounter the subcategory listing Bread. I speculate it may be missing because the bread-only specializing bakeries are so few. Bread was sometimes used in the names of bread specializing bakeries in the other countries, but not nearly as much as in the U.S. So, based on the way retail bakeries in the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, and the United States categorize themselves, advertise themselves, name themselves and the way locals review and search for them; the OSM features webpage should be changed in two ways: 1) Pastries should definitely not be listed as a product of shop=confectionery. 2) A more correct definition for shop=bakery is selling cakes, pastries, pies and bread -- or tongue in cheek: selling cakes, pastries, pies and sometimes bread, but rarely bread alone Since we currently have the state where the shop=bakery and shop=confectionery descriptions are ill suited for many of the English Speaking countries and their resident taggers and users I would advocate for changes in the description of shop=confectionery and shop=bakery as above and the introduction of subcategories of bakery. Since shop=bakery is clearly a better choice for a cake shop or pastry shop or one that sells many bakery product types, I wonder if Bakery_good:bread=yes or bread=yes added to shop=bakery would be less disruptive than shop=bread. I would expect taggers from the the mentioned countries to quickly use shop=bread for their local bread bakeries and change any previously entered shop=bakery for such shops. I know I would.Then the success of a European visiting these countries in finding artisan bread by visiting a shop=bakery icon becomes zero; as opposed to a possible, but small, chance of success now or if bread=yes is brought into use. Question: I've seen subtags of style bread=yes and bakery_good:bread=yes, but have found no guidance on which is preferred when. Is there any guidance or is it just the preference of the one proposing it? Murry ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
I've been doing some research, perhaps towards producing a formal proposal page, of how bakery and confectionery should be handled for the United States (and perhaps some of the other English speaking countries - I hope those from Britain, Canada, Australia, etc. would identify their country and comment what works for them). I've consulted existing OSM entries, business directories, government sources, web sources, dictionaries, thesauruses, and talked with people and used personal experience. The following is written with an American view (or at least a Western American view), so when I use most people, most, all, none, or like terms please interpret it as U.S.-centric. The U.S. is the land of the supermarket. The majority of the people here have not set foot in a shop devoted to the retail sale of baked goods in the last year. Take away the national commercial bakery outlet stores (often thought of as day-old stores) and the number plummets further. As to meaning, the most common interpretation of a bakery shop is a place that sells cakes, pies, and/or pastries. Step into a shop with Bakery in the name, other than a national bakery outlet or one with Cafe and Bakery as part of the name, expecting to buy a loaf of white, brown, french, or other common yeast bread and you will be disappointed over 90% of the time. Bread is not typically thought of unless the shop name has the word Bread in it. In Colorado Springs, a city and urban area of half a million, I know of two shops which specialize in everyday loaf bread. There may be more that don't advertise in business directories. print media, or have a web presence; (ideally, OSM could become the go-to source for them). To buy everyday bread, one goes to the bread aisle of the supermarket or other general food store, or to the bakery department of such stores. The supermarkets even carry or make artisan lines of bread and sometimes feature fresh hot french bread at specific times during the day. For custom breads, one might go to a combination cafe and bakery or a delicatessen. I know California has artisan bread shops but they have not generally reached Colorado. There are artisan bakers, but they use other retail outlets to market their product. For other types of bakery goods, supermarkets are the first choice, but bakery shop is an option for the average shopper. Nationality is often associated with a bakery, Danish, Dutch, French, German, and Mexican were encountered when Ii looked at Colorado bakeries.and I'm sure many other nationalities are used with bakeries in the state of Colorado and the U.S. The only nationality association that usually featured (but not always) loaf yeast breads was French. The others did not carry it at all or it was a very minor display. Mexican bakeries typically feature tortillas (sometimes referred to in the Western U.S. as the national bread of Mexico) and may not carry loaf bread at all. Cafes with a retail bakery counter are very common, where the counter does substantial business but not enough to sustain a standalone bakery shop or where the synergy allows both to do better than as stand-alones. The bakery products are often but not always a feature of the cafe menu. I would tend to map these as two nodes within the space, amenity=cafe and shop=bakery. Catering businesses also often feature bakery counters, again double nodes seem appropriate. I would not use a shop=bakery node where a bakery counter is incidental, or very minor to the business. As for confectionery shops, most people have to think a moment as what they are, then none associate pastries with them. They think of them as places for candy or chocolates. A very few shops sell both candies and pastries, but do not call the pastries confections Finding a good name for something is often 90% of the battle of doing a data category right, and terminology is definitely a problem. The word for eat-everyday, baked unsweetened yeast dough loaf is bread. Smaller than a loaf bread is most typically called a roll. But, bread also has a general meaning that includes egg bread, sweetened bread, holiday bread, quick bread, etc. Baked goods is interpreted by some to include pizzas, calzones, and other products, but these same people would not go to a bakery for these products. Bakery goods would not be interpreted by most to include pizzas and the like, but is not commonly used. There is not a good term for the group of sweetened bread, and non-bread/non-roll bakery products. To most people, pastries does not include cakes, cookies, and some other non-bread baked dough. Some separate out pies and tarts from pastries, but most would not be mislead by including them as pastries. So the solution should not be bread and pastries; but bread, pastries, and other categories. Notes: Even everyday bread often uses a small amount of some sweetener, here I use non-sweetened to mean not characterized by a noticeably sweet or dessert like taste. I would include within
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
I do see bakery (baked goods) and confectionery (candy, chocolates) and the shops that sell them as very different so would never use the later for any of the former. If I go to a telephone business book (yellow pages) or a book section in a book store, I expect bakery and baking books to cover breads, cakes, pastries, etc. Similarly if I use the business directory or bookstore section for confectionery, I expect a chocolate or candy store or books on chocolate or candy making. Here (Western US), i usually do not first think of a bakery shop for bread, but instead as one selling cakes, cookies, pastries, cupcakes, pies or a combination thereof and maybe breads. We tend to call shops where mainly bread is sold, bread stores; but I would still look under bakery in the business directory for one. Here confectionery shops are more likely to sell something like nuts or dried fruit with chocolates and/or candy than they are to sell pastries. The few that do mix candy and pastries are also likely to offer cakes, cupcakes, or cookies. Rather than push for shop=pastry it makes more sense to change the text on the wiki to expand what bakery stands for (and remove pastries from the description of the confectionery). If you want more detail then perhaps the proposal should be: shop=bakery, cuisine=* where cuisine could be bread, cakes, wedding cakes, cupcakes, cookies, pastries, pies, or a list if one type is not predominant at the shop. This would nicely parallel amenity=cafe; cuisine=cake for places where you consume the product within the business (cafe) rather than take it from the business (shop). I suppose the debate then could become amenity=fast_food; cuisine=cookie versus shop=bakery; cuisine=cookie for the cookie counters in the shopping malls. :-) Murry ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
| On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 11:45 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: | | I do agree that there are probably big cultural differences in this area and that in some parts of the world | | these would all be considered bakeries, but around here and also in Germany like in Austria pastry shops | (pâtisserie) won't sell you bread (as long as they aren't both, a Bäckerei and a Konditorei). I would | prefer to have a distinct shop tag and not rely on a second tag like cuisine. Perhaps there is also a misunderstanding of language, where the terms in other languages are being connected to the similar but wrong English word. I'll point to wikipedia, which is often used as an authority by OSM, where confectionery includes candy (sweets), chocolates, and ice cream but does not include baked goods: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confectionery whereas pastries are pies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pie, tarts, quicheshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiche, croissants, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croissant and pasties, that is generally but not always sweet baked goods,: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastry The wikipedia entries align very well with what I think of when I hear the terms. There is a general meaning of the word confection that would include all desserts, frivolous writings, and some decorative clothing, but I would never call a pastry shop a confectionery as the common audience would never understand (at least I believe in most the US) . As far as regional or American versus British English, call a garbage can a waste basket (waste basket generally means a small indoor container next to the desk in the US) and I can make the connection, but a pastry is only very rarely found at a confectionery here and when it is, they advertise it as a pastry not a confection. As an aside, here the word confectionery would never be commonly used in casual conversation for any shop but is understood to mean a chocolate or candy store when encountered. So for the solution and assuming we wish to distinguish types, what do we tag a shop that sells: only cakes? only cupcakes? only wedding cakes? only cookies (British biscuit I believe)? only pies? only turnovers, cream puffs, strudels, danishes, tarts, coffee cakes, or sweet rolls? (what I most closely connect to the word pastries) Shops that specialize these ways are very common in the US and most people here would start with bakery in a directory (or legend) as a place to find them. It seems a bigger mess if your audience avoids your product because they consider it misleading when they have used it. I view confectionery as unsuitable for all of these, and pastry mostly suitable for only the last. I suppose separate terms for each type of shop or bakery with sub tags would work for me. Also interesting would be quick bread and sweet yeast bread shops. Banana bread and stollen are more likely to be found in a bakery that sells pastries than one that sells (regular?) bread here. My guess is that this won't be agreeable, and I'm also opposing it, right now the wiki says a Konditorei/pâtisserie should be tagged as confectionery, if we moved this now to bakery it would be an awful mess ;-) cheers, Martin The OSM wiki (and database) can be wrong and I assume should be fixed (perhaps over time or by a bot) even if it causes messes. Of course, the group decides if this is something that needs correction.. but if I visit Germany or Austria with my OSM app in English and get a hankering for strudel, I'll have to ask someone on the street and stop using my OSM app (perhaps altogether) because I never thought to try a candy store. :-) Murry ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
