Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mi., 20. Nov. 2019 um 06:56 Uhr schrieb Jorge Aguirre <
jorge.agui...@kaart.com>:

> I had been out for the last few weeks and had left this proposal in
> standby.  I am back now and have revised and updated the original proposal
> and included some images as examples, so hopefully it is all more clear now
> and better explained, so everyone understands just how important this new
> tag is for the address system used in Latin America and several other
> countries in the world.
>
> I would appreciate all to read the newer version found here:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Addr:milestone
>


I welcome the idea to use specific address tags for distance based
addressing information, but I do not believe "milestone" is a good tag for
this, at least not here in my area, because it seems to require to refer to
a specific milestone, while people use distance based information also when
there aren't milestones, or there aren't milestones for the specific
distance.

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[Jorge Aguirre]

I had been out for the last few weeks and had left this proposal in standby.  I 
am back now and have revised and updated the original proposal and included 
some images as examples, so hopefully it is all more clear now and better 
explained, so everyone understands just how important this new tag is for the 
address system used in Latin America and several other countries in the world.

I would appreciate all to read the newer version found here: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Addr:milestone


Thank you all.


Jorge

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> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: New tag proposal: 'add=milestone' (Agustin Rissoli)
>   2. Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two
>  (Frederik Ramm)
>   3. Re: Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or
>  two (Mateusz Konieczny)
>   4. Re: Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or
>  two (Dave Swarthout)
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 00:26:07 -0300
> From: Agustin Rissoli 
> To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'add=milestone'
> Message-ID:
>   
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
>> 
>> this implies road markers must be present, right? Isn’t this mainly about 
>> the distance from some zero point, even in the absence of road distance 
>> markers?
>> 
>> No, many times there are no marks, for me it does not have to be implicit
> 
> I would not invent myself these numbers, I would copy them from
>> the gate where they have been put by the owner or municipality (regardless
>> of actual distances or even if they are in slight contradiction with nearby
>> road markers, as I have seen occur). If nothing is signposted, I would
>> rather map the road markers nearby (if any).
>> 
>> agree, many times these addresses are calculated by the same owner
> 
> Somebody remarked earlier in the thread that there are places in the US
>> where the distances are
>> used as house numbers.  I think the duck test applies.  It doesn't matter
>> if a house number is
>> assigned sequentially, or is based upon distance from some specified point,
>> or is based upon
>> some mad king throwing darts at a map: if it looks like a house number, is
>> treated like a house
>> number, and appears on the house/gate/whatever as a house number, then it's
>> a house number.
>> House numbers don't have to be sequential or monotonic, I can think of a
>> couple of roads in my
>> town where the house numbers are counter-intuitive.  So it doesn't matter
>> if those house numbers
>> were assigned based on a distance along a road, and that subsequent road
>> remodelling has
>> resulted in them all being inaccurate without a milepost equation: if it
>> quacks like a house
>> number then it's a house number.
>> 
>> If they're not house numbers marked somewhere on the property, and if there
>> are sometimes
>> (as the OP has stated) missing markers, and if road remodelling has
>> rendered the distances
>> incorrect, then what good is addr:road_marker in those particular
>> circumstances?
>> 
>> It appears addr:road_marker is only really applicable where all of the
>> following apply:
>> 
>> 1: The number is not marked on the property (otherwise it's a house number,
>> however
>> derived).
>> 
>> 2) Road remodelling has not significantly changed the distances between the
>> property
>> and the two nearest road markers (so you know it's somewhere between marker
>> X and
>> marker Y).
>> 
>> 3) Road markers have not been recalibrated following extensive road
>> remodelling.
>> 
>> --
>> Paul
>> 
>> In Argentina it is common to have addresses with house number, street
> name, and also address per km., For example Avenida San Martín 5440, Ruta 9
> km 60.5
> It is often used on routes that cross small towns and suburban areas. I
> also saw the same thing in Uruguay, where I got to see addresses with
> street name, lot number, km number of the route without house number (the
> number of km belongs to the route and not the street numbering )
> 
> Agustin
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> Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 08:38:28 +0200
> From: Fr

Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mi., 2. Okt. 2019 um 22:55 Uhr schrieb Agustin Rissoli <
aguztin...@gmail.com>:

> I think we can add a clarification, which says that these directions are
> not exact, but usually based on the approximate position with respect to a
> milestone on the road.
>


Actually I have 2 different cases in my area:
1. approximate positions that aren't signposted (but you can get them for
example on the website of the feature, from business registers or from the
address on the receipt when you buy something), they go like "Motorway A23
X - Y km 35.700"
2. Indications of exact meters, like 3455, which may or may not be accurate
with respect to official road markers / milestones, but are kind of an
"agreed upon" address, and people post them as if they were regular
(consecutive) housenumbers (they might also be official housenumbers, I am
not sure about this, and it may depend on the municipality).

Example for the second case:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1655384,12.3482096,3a,16.1y,57.78h,85.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSFb1ZNg34WWYGflbjVgFNg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Examples for the first case:
https://www.myautogrill.it/it/portal/myautogrill_list

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Re: “On standard [OpenStreetMap-]carto (and probably most others)
highway=milestone doesn't render.”

There is an open issue and some rendering ideas from a year back:

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/3605

If anyone wants to help get historic=milestone rendered, they can help
design a good rendering or submit a PR on github: it’s an all-volunteer,
open-source project.

-Joseph

On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 9:55 PM Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Wed, 2 Oct 2019 at 13:26, santamariense  wrote:
>
>>
>> > that you should not use the term "milestone" but something like
>> > addr:distance or
>> > addr:road_marker  or whatever, because there are no milestones
>>
>> addr:road_marker seems to be appropriate
>
>
> Or something with similar meaning.  Places that use this addressing system
> presumably
> have some name for that part of an address.  So that if you tell somebody
> what road your house
> is on and they want to know more precisely, they ask you what your X is.
> I doubt they ask you
> what your milestone is.  Same for forms where there are boxes for road,
> town, county (maybe)
> post/zip code (maybe), there is presumably a box labelled X, and I doubt
> that label is
> "milestone."
>
> Also of consideration is that if somebody uses the query tool of standard
> carto to get
> the address of a house, will addr:milestone make any sense to them or will
> it just
> confuse them?
>
> I did some more digging (which the original poster should have done, if
> not at first then at
> least after several people suggested "milestone" was inappropriate).  What
> OSM calls
> highway=milestone is a "highway location marker."  Which is used in
> addresses as a
> "linear referencing system."  So addr:highway_location or
> addr:linear_reference or
> addr:road_marker or something similar based upon what people who live in
> areas with that
> kind of address call that part of the address.
>
> but highway=milestone, even
>> misleading its name can be, is already in use and I think it would be
>> better to keep a relation between their names.
>>
>
> On standard carto (and probably most others) highway=milestone doesn't
> render.  And those
> milestones-that-aren't-really-milestones are probably only rarely mapped,
> whereas
> addresses frequently are mapped.  In any  case, as people have pointed
> out, the highway
> location markers either side of the address may not be present.  So the
> only reason for keeping
> a relation between the names is if we're going to map every marker and use
> an OSM relation to
> bind addresses to markers (which will still fail if there's no marker
> present).
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[Agustin Rissoli]

I think we can add a clarification, which says that these directions are
not exact, but usually based on the approximate position with respect to a
milestone on the road.

Agustín


Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 19:25:29 +0100
From: Paul Allen 
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"

Subject: Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

On Wed, 2 Oct 2019 at 18:59, Agustin Rissoli  wrote:

>
> > > Perfect! That is exactly what happens in real life when someone is
> seeking an address based on location markers once the precision of the
> distance used in addresses is low.
>
> This description should be in the eventual wiki
>

You think?  That's a description of how somebody navigates to an address
like that
without a map.  Keep an eye on the odometer.  Look for "milestones."  If
you see
a "milestone" numbered higher than in the address, you've gone too far.
But it's
not how you navigate if you have a map.  Especially if the map display is
capable
of using GPS to show your current position.

>
>
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Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 2 Oct 2019 at 18:59, Agustin Rissoli  wrote:

>
> > > Perfect! That is exactly what happens in real life when someone is
> seeking an address based on location markers once the precision of the
> distance used in addresses is low.
>
> This description should be in the eventual wiki
>

You think?  That's a description of how somebody navigates to an address
like that
without a map.  Keep an eye on the odometer.  Look for "milestones."  If
you see
a "milestone" numbered higher than in the address, you've gone too far.
But it's
not how you navigate if you have a map.  Especially if the map display is
capable
of using GPS to show your current position.

>
> @Paul Allen keep calm
>

I am calm.  Very calm.  It's possible to strongly disagree with somebody
whilst remaining
perfectly calm.

-- 
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[Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[Agustin Rissoli]

Jorge,
I think we should change the name of the tag to addr:road_marker or
another, as many are not interested in milestone not being the correct
name, nor should they care that it does not match highway=milestone, it is
a lesser evil.

> Think of the ‘milestone’ as a point of reference. The ‘milestone’ only
provides a general idea > of how far or how close you are to a destination.
Once you go beyond and reach the next
> ‘milestone’ you may need to turn around and go slower to find what you
are seeking.

> > Perfect! That is exactly what happens in real life when someone is
seeking an address based on location markers once the precision of the
distance used in addresses is low.

This description should be in the eventual wiki

@Paul Allen keep calm


Saludos, Agustín.
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Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 2 Oct 2019 at 14:57, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

this is also a milestone in OSM: historic=milestone
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:historic%3Dmilestone
>

There aren't that many milestones (made of stone, marked in miles) around
here but
all of those I'm aware of are historic and many of them are classified as
listed buildings.
I think it's been many decades since any actual milestone was placed and
that they're
probably all historic.  Our road signage is still in miles whilst yours
isn't, but a milestone
is only really usable by walkers, not by car drivers, so they're not very
useful these days.

Here's a summary page (in German):
> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distanzstein


> I am not sure we would want main tags for all these, would we?
>

A main tag, for each, no.  A collective tag with sub-tags, maybe.  Or just
a collective tag
that fits better than highway=milestone.

I agree a tag like "distance marker" would have been more neutral, but I
> have never had problems with calling something a "milestone" which actually
> uses kilometers as units, or which wasn't made out of stone.
>

When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.  You and I
live in countries which
has milestones made of stone and marked in miles, even if they serve no
purpose these days.
In a country which has only ever had kilometre markings on metal signs
and/or road markings,
highway=milestone is like trying to rotate a nut with a hammer, and
addr:milestone is like
trying to solder delicate electronics with a hammer.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mi., 2. Okt. 2019 um 13:33 Uhr schrieb Paul Allen :

> NO.  NO, NO, NO, NO, NO.  That's how we end up with bad tags.  Like
> highway=milestone.
> Outside of OSM, a milestone is a stone with a distance in miles marked
> upon it.  Outside
> of OSM, this is a milestone:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Milestone@Penrhosgarnedd_2.jpg
>
It's made of stone and the distances are in miles.
>


this is also a milestone in OSM: historic=milestone
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:historic%3Dmilestone

FWIW, in German these things are called "Meilenstein" (=milestone),
although we do not measure in miles (anymore) and regardless of the units
used on the stone. While there are also "Kilometerstein" (kilometerstone)
and "Stationszeichen" (road marker), and "Meilensäule" (mile-column), and
"Stundenstein", "Distanzsäule" (distance column), "Ganzmeilenobelisk"
(whole mile obelisk), etc.etc.. The typical milestones in Germany can be
further classified as Roman Milestone, Prussian Milestone, Berlin
Milestone, Milestones of the various smaller German (ex-)countries

Here's a summary page (in German):
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distanzstein

I am not sure we would want main tags for all these, would we?
I agree a tag like "distance marker" would have been more neutral, but I
have never had problems with calling something a "milestone" which actually
uses kilometers as units, or which wasn't made out of stone.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 2 Oct 2019 at 13:26, santamariense  wrote:

>
> > that you should not use the term "milestone" but something like
> > addr:distance or
> > addr:road_marker  or whatever, because there are no milestones
>
> addr:road_marker seems to be appropriated


Or something with similar meaning.  Places that use this addressing system
presumably
have some name for that part of an address.  So that if you tell somebody
what road your house
is on and they want to know more precisely, they ask you what your X is.  I
doubt they ask you
what your milestone is.  Same for forms where there are boxes for road,
town, county (maybe)
post/zip code (maybe), there is presumably a box labelled X, and I doubt
that label is
"milestone."

Also of consideration is that if somebody uses the query tool of standard
carto to get
the address of a house, will addr:milestone make any sense to them or will
it just
confuse them?

I did some more digging (which the original poster should have done, if not
at first then at
least after several people suggested "milestone" was inappropriate).  What
OSM calls
highway=milestone is a "highway location marker."  Which is used in
addresses as a
"linear referencing system."  So addr:highway_location or
addr:linear_reference or
addr:road_marker or something similar based upon what people who live in
areas with that
kind of address call that part of the address.

but highway=milestone, even
> misleading its name can be, is already in use and I think it would be
> better to keep a relation between their names.
>

On standard carto (and probably most others) highway=milestone doesn't
render.  And those
milestones-that-aren't-really-milestones are probably only rarely mapped,
whereas
addresses frequently are mapped.  In any  case, as people have pointed out,
the highway
location markers either side of the address may not be present.  So the
only reason for keeping
a relation between the names is if we're going to map every marker and use
an OSM relation to
bind addresses to markers (which will still fail if there's no marker
present).

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[santamariense]

> which coincidentally can match (or not match) the distance

Well noted. The reference to a location marker used in an address
rarely gives the exact distance. It is an approximated value with low
precision, unlike the tag distance=* that is used with
highway=milestone that is supposed to mark the exact distance of a
road where distance=* is based on an engineering project, usually with
high precision.


> Think of the ‘milestone’ as a point of reference. The ‘milestone’ only 
> provides a general idea > of how far or how close you are to a destination. 
> Once you go beyond and reach the next
> ‘milestone’ you may need to turn around and go slower to find what you are 
> seeking.

Perfect! That is exactly what happens in real life when someone is
seeking an address based on location markers once the precision of the
distance used in addresses is low.


> Wow, that makes them really useful.  It's a road marker that's not made of
> stone, shows kilometres
> rather than miles, and the number shown is wrong.  So you want to call it a
> milestone.

The number shown is not exactly wrong. It is approximated and its
precision can vary up to ~1km because most of the values used in
addresses do not show precision in meters. Examples of common values
are Km 256, Km 7.5; and never Km 97.47247764, for example.


> that you should not use the term "milestone" but something like
> addr:distance or
> addr:road_marker  or whatever, because there are no milestones

addr:road_marker seems to be appropriated but highway=milestone, even
misleading its name can be, is already in use and I think it would be
better to keep a relation between their names.


-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/

I do not mind what name would be used as a tag to map this address
information as long as a tag is created to map it. However, I
understand the need to create a well-named tag that would be
applicable worldwide and I hope this does not stop the creation of
such tag whatever your name.

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Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 2 Oct 2019 at 03:40, Jorge Aguirre  wrote:

>
> In all fairness, I think it should not be as difficult to find a good way
> to facilitate entering a complementary address tag, one that is very much
> needed in our part of the world - one which applies to and needed in most
> of the world actually.
>

I haven't seen anybody say such a tag is not needed.  I've seen people in
various parts of the
world say a similar situation applies there.  What people are saying is
that your proposed tag
is not well named.

>
> > I think we're close to hitting the record for how misleading a tag name
> can
> > be.
>
> Getting into analyzing the true definition of an actual ‘milestone’ - in
> this case - is needless.


One of the main reasons this list exists is to try to discourage tags with
misleading names,
because they end up being misunderstood and misused.  The true definition
of milestone,
as it is understood outside of OSM, is VERY relevant: people new to OSM
will interpret
the names of tags according to their common meanings, not OSM "this doesn't
have
the same meaning as in ordinary life" meanings.


> I feel we cannot all become ‘purist’ and try to find the proper
> definitions for terms to be then used as ’universal tags' applicable to the
> entire world.


And yet we must, else we end up with tags that are misunderstood and
misused.  And tags
that mean one thing in Brazil, a different thing in France, and something
else in China.  OSM
is a map of the world, not a collection of country maps.

The best we can all do is adapt and apply what we have at hand.


NO.  NO, NO, NO, NO, NO.  That's how we end up with bad tags.  Like
highway=milestone.
Outside of OSM, a milestone is a stone with a distance in miles marked upon
it.  Outside
of OSM, this is a milestone:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Milestone@Penrhosgarnedd_2.jpg
It's made of stone and the distances are in miles.  That's why it's called
a milestone and not
a kilometremarker.  But when somebody wanted to tag road markings that were
in kilometres
and not on stones, he or she decided to "adapt and apply what we have at
hand."


> So, things may not be perfect, but they are good enough to use and and
> apply to many different
>
cases.


MIsapplying tags to different cases leads to confusion and errors.  If the
cases are different
they need different tags.  If the same tag really does apply to both then
they aren't different.
Your definition of "good enough" is a lot less stringent than mine.


> Most people have come to appreciate the simplicity of using and how
> versatile the OSM project
>
really is.
>

Except that OSM isn't as simple as it could be because people keep coming
up with bad
names for tags.  OSM is stuck with landuse=grass when it should be
landcover=grass
because of a past bad decision.  Because of that past bad decision, people
invent other
landuse tags that should be landcover tags based upon the fact that
landuse=grass exists.
And somebody else insists on addr:milestone because of a past bad decision
about
highway=milestone.

The existent tag known as ‘highway:milestone’ and it’s definition found
> here:


If your friend put his hand in the fire, would you do the same thing?
highway=milestone is
a badly-named tag.


> [https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmilestone] has been
> previously created, accepted and is currently being used by the entire OSM
> community. The point I have based this ‘addr:milestone’ proposal on, is
> what the general concept of the ‘:milestone' stands for: a location marker
> - which may be made of any material including ’stone’ - and which it’s
> primary function is to indicate a location on a road - which coincidentally
> can match (or not match) the distance - in kilometers (or miles), as these
> are internationally accepted measuring units mostly useful for these longer
> distances. But the ‘milestone’ as such, is still only a reference point on
> any given road.
>

Then propose addr:road_marker if, as you say later, that component of the
address is only loosely
based upon the position along the road and the marker is not at the true
distance it claims to
represent.

>
> The ‘milestone’ markers usually indicate a location - and not necessarily
> the distance - but in either case are used as reference points.
>

Wow, that makes them really useful.  It's a road marker that's not made of
stone, shows kilometres
rather than miles, and the number shown is wrong.  So you want to call it a
milestone.

>
> Unfortunately, DISTANCE could require being too exact in a very subjective
> and too ambiguous ‘milestone’ related addressing system.  The concept of
> either of these is not and cannot be an exact science. Most any known
> address system I’ve heard of is just based on proximity to other known
> references.


Are you deliberately being obtuse?  It has already been stated here that a
house between
marker 9 and marker 10 might have "9.5" in the address because it is a
distance of
APPROXIMATELY 9.5

Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[Jorge Aguirre]

Greetings my fellow OSM colleagues. 

In all fairness, I think it should not be as difficult to find a good way to 
facilitate entering a complementary address tag, one that is very much needed 
in our part of the world - one which applies to and needed in most of the world 
actually. 

This has been an interesting experience for me, to find so many different 
opinions and points of view for something that for others is so obviously 
needed. Who could have guessed this? There are barely just over 5,700,000 
contributors, as of some time today, helping with this project.

So hopefully I will help clarify with these following comments:

> I think we're close to hitting the record for how misleading a tag name can
> be.


Getting into analyzing the true definition of an actual ‘milestone’ - in this 
case - is needless. I feel we cannot all become ‘purist’ and try to find the 
proper definitions for terms to be then used as ’universal tags' applicable to 
the entire world. The best we can all do is adapt and apply what we have at 
hand. So, things may not be perfect, but they are good enough to use and and 
apply to many different cases. Most people have come to appreciate the 
simplicity of using and how versatile the OSM project really is. 

> This is a proposal for a tag addr:milestone to allow us to specify a
> distance in kilometres
> (not miles), of a house (not a milestone) and the nearest milestone isn't a
> stone but a sign.


The existent tag known as ‘highway:milestone’ and it’s definition found here: 
[https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmilestone] has been 
previously created, accepted and is currently being used by the entire OSM 
community. The point I have based this ‘addr:milestone’ proposal on, is what 
the general concept of the ‘:milestone' stands for: a location marker - which 
may be made of any material including ’stone’ - and which it’s primary function 
is to indicate a location on a road - which coincidentally can match (or not 
match) the distance - in kilometers (or miles), as these are internationally 
accepted measuring units mostly useful for these longer distances. But the 
‘milestone’ as such, is still only a reference point on any given road.

>  A distance
> from where, exactly?  A highway has two ends, and there may be a milestone 
> 9km from each end.

The ‘milestone’ markers usually indicate a location - and not necessarily the 
distance - but in either case are used as reference points.

As we are now using Guatemala for this example, there is actually a point 
called ‘Kilómetro Cero’, a plaque on a cement sidewalk, located at the entrance 
of the National Palace of Culture from which all major highways in Guatemala 
begin. Even the 30,000 kilometer-long Pan-American Highway which runs from 
Alaska to the Southern tip of Argentina (with the exception of the Darién Gap 
in Panama) runs through Guatemala West to East has ‘milestones’ or markers 
indicating the distance from the National Palace in downtown Guatemala City 
towards the Mexican border on the West side, and towards the El Salvador border 
on the East side.  The kilometer markers (aka 'milestones') have one thing in 
common - whether you are moving to or from any of the borders - the further you 
are from Guatemala City, the higher the kilometer reading is and viceversa. 
There is a starting point and there is a finishing point.

-


> For the same purpose of this proposal I used addr:milestone:distance=*
> but I agree with Paul that there's no need for the milestone in the
> middle.Real distance or not is the same for distance=* when used with
> highway=milestone.


Unfortunately, DISTANCE could require being too exact in a very subjective and 
too ambiguous ‘milestone’ related addressing system.  The concept of either of 
these is not and cannot be an exact science. Most any known address system I’ve 
heard of is just based on proximity to other known references. If otherwise, 
any address would require the use of longer and more complex numbers such as 
‘Km. 9.47836235’ for us to be able to find an address to get to our hotel - 
provided we know where to start measuring that distance. Fortunately we are 
usually capable of 'filling in the blanks' enough to find our destinations 
through this planet. 

A tag name using the term ‘milestone’ to locate an address - as opposed to 
using a tag with the term ‘distance’ - in which that distance is measured from 
a ‘milestone’ (which may or may not be even there) makes no sense to me. As 
occurs in real life, these distances are not even close to being exact on any 
addressing system - they are only approximate distances from a reference point 
and usually expressed in round one (with any luck 2) decimal numbers - give or 
take a few hundred meters…

Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Yes, we call them "mile markers" in my part of Oregon/Northern
California too, like "the wildfire started on the north side of
Highway 96 at mile marker 23" - but houses and other structures have
addresses with house numbers.

On 10/2/19, Dave Swarthout  wrote:
> The "milestone" value is a misnomer in most modern situations. Here in
> Thailand, many roads have actual mile markers, er kilometer markers, but
> they are not made of stone. They are painted concrete. In the U.S. there
> are very few of these if any. When I'm tagging mile markers in the U.S., I
> include a tag description=Metal flag
>
> One of the things I love to map in Thailand are km=0 milestones which
> denote the beginning of a numbered route. To date, I've added approximately
> 270 of these special milestones.
>
> On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 12:43 AM Aaron Young  wrote:
>
>> What I'm unclear on is if these addresses refer to an actual road
>> marker, or an actual distance based upon interpolation between
>> actual road markers.  If you have a road marker at 8km and another
>> road marker at 9km, would a house between the two have addr:milestone
>> 8, 9 or 8.5?  If the address is of an actual road marker then
>> addr:milestone
>> would be appropriate (given that we already misuse highway=milestone
>> to mean kilometre markers); if it's a distance that doesn't correspond to
>> an actual road marker then we need a better name.
>>
>> I would expect the address:milestone=8.5 would be used.  This is
>> something
>> that can be determined by software and is not always written on signage
>> but
>> widely used.
>>
>> There are also usages within the US for emergency response purposes.
>> Highway call boxes often use mile marker or milestone reference to
>> determine location of incident.  US highways have milemarker signage
>> every
>> mile to assist with this purpose.  Utilizing it in address finding
>> throughout the world is a needed tag in my opinion.
>>
>> Aaron
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>
>
> --
> Dave Swarthout
> Homer, Alaska
> Chiang Mai, Thailand
> Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
>

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Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[Dave Swarthout]

The "milestone" value is a misnomer in most modern situations. Here in
Thailand, many roads have actual mile markers, er kilometer markers, but
they are not made of stone. They are painted concrete. In the U.S. there
are very few of these if any. When I'm tagging mile markers in the U.S., I
include a tag description=Metal flag

One of the things I love to map in Thailand are km=0 milestones which
denote the beginning of a numbered route. To date, I've added approximately
270 of these special milestones.

On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 12:43 AM Aaron Young  wrote:

> What I'm unclear on is if these addresses refer to an actual road
> marker, or an actual distance based upon interpolation between
> actual road markers.  If you have a road marker at 8km and another
> road marker at 9km, would a house between the two have addr:milestone
> 8, 9 or 8.5?  If the address is of an actual road marker then addr:milestone
> would be appropriate (given that we already misuse highway=milestone
> to mean kilometre markers); if it's a distance that doesn't correspond to
> an actual road marker then we need a better name.
>
> I would expect the address:milestone=8.5 would be used.  This is something
> that can be determined by software and is not always written on signage but
> widely used.
>
> There are also usages within the US for emergency response purposes.
> Highway call boxes often use mile marker or milestone reference to
> determine location of incident.  US highways have milemarker signage every
> mile to assist with this purpose.  Utilizing it in address finding
> throughout the world is a needed tag in my opinion.
>
> Aaron
> ___
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> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>


-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[santamariense]

> I think we're close to hitting the record for how misleading a tag name can
> be.

Maybe.

> This is a proposal for a tag addr:milestone to allow us to specify a
> distance in kilometres
> (not miles), of a house (not a milestone) and the nearest milestone isn't a
> stone but a sign.

It could be in kilometres or miles, depending on the measuring system
of each country. I have already seen literally some milestones at
roads, but yes, they are generally in signs.


> If the locals call the road markers (marked in kilometres and which are not
> stones)
> milestones then there is some slight justification for addr:milestone.  But
> only slight,
> because the address doesn't give the nearest "milestone" but a distance
> along a road.

This could also be understood as follows... I would say that the
address does give the nearest milestone (if it's corrected and
updated) and also gives a distance along a road.


> Unless the locals call road markers "milestones" and think of the "9.5km"
> in terms of
> milestones, addr:milestone is a horrific misnomer and addr:distance better.

As a non-native English speaker, I'll not opine.


> We have a similar system for numbering rural addresses eg
> https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.1554393,153.313766,3a,18.8y,127.92h,70.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sir8KWhNY9fZpBY-ooY_u8g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656,
> 567
> Austinville Rd is 5670 m's from the start of the road, &, because it's an
> odd number, is on the left side.
> I just list them as addr:housenumber

At least in Brazil, some address can contain both values:
addr:housenumber and (proposed) 'addr:milestone'.

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Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi]

Il giorno mar, 01/10/2019 alle 23.09 +0200, Tobias Zwick ha scritto:
> Milestones are not necessarily located at the true distance of A to
> B. Not sure why this is the case, but I know that this is true for at
> least Thailand. 
> On 01/10/2019 21:10, Paul Allen wrote:
> > On Tue, 1 Oct 2019 at 19:40, Jorge Aguirre  >  > wrote:
> > The addresses that utilize ‘Km’ as part of the actual address
> > are always related to a specific 'highway:milestone’ on that
> > particular highway. For instance, the address for the Hilton
> > Guatemala Vista Real Hotel in Guatemala - as it appears on their
> > official website: [
> > https://www3.hilton.com/en/hotels/guatemala/hilton-guatemala-city-GUALLHH/index.html
> > ] - is ‘Km. 9.5 CA-1 East Vista Real Complex, Guatemala City,
> > 01015’. What this means is the location is 500 meters from where
> > the 'highway:milestone=9’ on that particular ‘CA-1 East’ highway...
> > 
> > I think we're close to hitting the record for how misleading a tag
> > name can be.
> > This is a proposal for a tag addr:milestone to allow us to specify
> > a distance in kilometres(not miles), of a house (not a milestone)
> > and the nearest milestone isn't a stone but a sign.If the locals
> > call the road markers (marked in kilometres and which are not
> > stones)milestones then there is some slight justification for
> > addr:milestone.  But only slight,because the address doesn't give
> > the nearest "milestone" but a distance along a road.
> > If I understand you correctly, this is actually a distance along a
> > particular highway.  A distancefrom where, exactly?  A highway has
> > two ends, and there may be a milestone (that is neithera stone, nor
> > marked in miles) 9km from each end.  I assume that since the
> > addressis in Guatemala City, that would be what is used for
> > addr:city; I also assume that sincethe street is CA-1 East, that
> > would be what is used for addr:street.  Therefore the onlyother
> > thing required would be addr:distance to specify the distance from
> > addr:cityalong addr:street.
> > Unless the locals call road markers "milestones" and think of the
> > "9.5km" in terms ofmilestones, addr:milestone is a horrific
> > misnomer and addr:distance better.
> > -- Paul

For the same purpose of this proposal I used addr:milestone:distance=*
but I agree with Paul that there's no need for the milestone in the
middle.Real distance or not is the same for distance=* when used with
highway=milestone.I'd also use same rule for the unit, default in
kilometers if no one is given.

Lorenzo
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Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 1 Oct 2019 at 18:11, Mark Wagner  wrote:

> On Tue, 01 Oct 2019 09:01:06 +0200
> Colin Smale  wrote:
> Instead, linear position gets turned into a house number.  For example, a
> building
> eight and a half miles from the start of Long Road might be "850
> Long Road".
>

That's why I asked for a sample of what Jorge was talking about.

We have a similar system for numbering rural addresses eg
https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.1554393,153.313766,3a,18.8y,127.92h,70.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sir8KWhNY9fZpBY-ooY_u8g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656,
567
Austinville Rd is 5670 m's from the start of the road, &, because it's an
odd number, is on the left side.

I just list them as addr:housenumber

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[Tobias Zwick]

Milestones are not necessarily located at the true distance of A to B. Not sure 
why this is the case, but I know that this is true for at least Thailand. 

On 01/10/2019 21:10, Paul Allen wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Oct 2019 at 19:40, Jorge Aguirre  > wrote:
> 
> The addresses that utilize ‘Km’ as part of the actual address are always 
> related to a specific 'highway:milestone’ on that particular highway. For 
> instance, the address for the Hilton Guatemala Vista Real Hotel in Guatemala 
> - as it appears on their official website: 
> [https://www3.hilton.com/en/hotels/guatemala/hilton-guatemala-city-GUALLHH/index.html]
>  - is ‘Km. 9.5 CA-1 East Vista Real Complex, Guatemala City, 01015’. What 
> this means is the location is 500 meters from where the 'highway:milestone=9’ 
> on that particular ‘CA-1 East’ highway...
> 
> 
> I think we're close to hitting the record for how misleading a tag name can 
> be.
> 
> This is a proposal for a tag addr:milestone to allow us to specify a distance 
> in kilometres
> (not miles), of a house (not a milestone) and the nearest milestone isn't a 
> stone but a sign.
> If the locals call the road markers (marked in kilometres and which are not 
> stones)
> milestones then there is some slight justification for addr:milestone.  But 
> only slight,
> because the address doesn't give the nearest "milestone" but a distance along 
> a road.
> 
> If I understand you correctly, this is actually a distance along a particular 
> highway.  A distance
> from where, exactly?  A highway has two ends, and there may be a milestone 
> (that is neither
> a stone, nor marked in miles) 9km from each end.  I assume that since the 
> address
> is in Guatemala City, that would be what is used for addr:city; I also assume 
> that since
> the street is CA-1 East, that would be what is used for addr:street.  
> Therefore the only
> other thing required would be addr:distance to specify the distance from 
> addr:city
> along addr:street.
> 
> Unless the locals call road markers "milestones" and think of the "9.5km" in 
> terms of
> milestones, addr:milestone is a horrific misnomer and addr:distance better.
> 
> -- 
> Paul
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, 1 Oct 2019 at 19:40, Jorge Aguirre  wrote:

The addresses that utilize ‘Km’ as part of the actual address are always
> related to a specific 'highway:milestone’ on that particular highway. For
> instance, the address for the Hilton Guatemala Vista Real Hotel in
> Guatemala - as it appears on their official website: [
> https://www3.hilton.com/en/hotels/guatemala/hilton-guatemala-city-GUALLHH/index.html]
> - is ‘Km. 9.5 CA-1 East Vista Real Complex, Guatemala City, 01015’. What
> this means is the location is 500 meters from where the
> 'highway:milestone=9’ on that particular ‘CA-1 East’ highway...
>

I think we're close to hitting the record for how misleading a tag name can
be.

This is a proposal for a tag addr:milestone to allow us to specify a
distance in kilometres
(not miles), of a house (not a milestone) and the nearest milestone isn't a
stone but a sign.
If the locals call the road markers (marked in kilometres and which are not
stones)
milestones then there is some slight justification for addr:milestone.  But
only slight,
because the address doesn't give the nearest "milestone" but a distance
along a road.

If I understand you correctly, this is actually a distance along a
particular highway.  A distance
from where, exactly?  A highway has two ends, and there may be a milestone
(that is neither
a stone, nor marked in miles) 9km from each end.  I assume that since the
address
is in Guatemala City, that would be what is used for addr:city; I also
assume that since
the street is CA-1 East, that would be what is used for addr:street.
Therefore the only
other thing required would be addr:distance to specify the distance from
addr:city
along addr:street.

Unless the locals call road markers "milestones" and think of the "9.5km"
in terms of
milestones, addr:milestone is a horrific misnomer and addr:distance better.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[Jorge Aguirre]

Jorge

> On Oct 1, 2019, at 8:25 AM, tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:
> 
> Send Tagging mailing list submissions to
>   tagging@openstreetmap.org
> 
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> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Tagging digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone' (Paul Allen)
>   2. Re: Strange tags (Kevin Kenny)
>   3. Re: Was there every a proposal for the disused:key=* /
>  abandoned:key=* lifecycle prefixes? (Kevin Kenny)
>   4. Re: Strange tags (Paul Allen)
>   5. Re: Strange tags (Martin Koppenhoefer)
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 14:06:48 +0100
> From: Paul Allen 
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
>   
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'
> Message-ID:
>   
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> On Tue, 1 Oct 2019 at 13:34, santamariense  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> I am not sure about to keep "Km". It might be understandable by the
>> key 'addr:milestone' itself.
> 
> 
> It might.  OSM uses highway=milestone to mean a road marker in general,
> rather than a traditional milestone (which was a stone with distances in
> miles carved on it).  The OSM milestone may not have a distance marked
> on it, but if the distance is given then it is assumed to be in kilometres
> unless
> a unit abbreviation follows.  So "9" would be 9 kilometres but "9 mi" would
> be 9 miles.

The addresses that utilize ‘Km’ as part of the actual address are always 
related to a specific 'highway:milestone’ on that particular highway. For 
instance, the address for the Hilton Guatemala Vista Real Hotel in Guatemala - 
as it appears on their official website: 
[https://www3.hilton.com/en/hotels/guatemala/hilton-guatemala-city-GUALLHH/index.html]
 - is ‘Km. 9.5 CA-1 East Vista Real Complex, Guatemala City, 01015’. What this 
means is the location is 500 meters from where the 'highway:milestone=9’ on 
that particular ‘CA-1 East’ highway... Other than the ‘Km’, there is no other 
reference for anyone to easily find this hotel.  The same occurs for countless 
important (and not so important) POI's lined up on either side of highways 
throughout the country and throughout the entire Latin American region. The Km 
is the only true reference available to locate these.

I agree that the abbreviation for kilometer -Km- is in most cases unnecessary 
in OSM, but in this case think it would be better if it were used. Using the 
same example above, the Hilton’s address in Guatemala - when entered as 
addr:street=CA-1 East + addr:milestone=9.5 would be: ‘9.5 CA-1 East...’ which I 
feel is harder to understand then if it were entered as addr:street=CA-1 East + 
addr:milestone=Km 9.5  for ‘Km 9.5 CA-1 East ...' This is of course mostly 
because of how the address system works in Guatemala and how anyone in 
Guatemala would search for this particular address. 

The main issue is to reach an agreement to create the tag itself: 
'addr:milestone’. To use or not to use the ‘Km’ prefix while entering the 
actual data seems to have taken the spotlight within this proposal - which I 
believe should appear, while others may think otherwise - but in the end I feel 
either way would work. 

I have also written a draft in the wiki for this proposal which may be read at 
[https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/Addr:milestone].
 Any comment is welcome and hopefully we may reach an agreement for this soon.

> 
> I have to say that I think using "milestone" to mean a road marker that
> isn't
> a stone and probably isn't marked in miles was an incredibly bad idea.  But
> we're stuck with it.  Even so, a default of kilometres for a thing called a
> milestone is sub-optimal.
> 
> What I'm unclear on is if these addresses refer to an actual road
> marker, or an actual distance based upon interpolation between
> actual road markers.  If you have a road marker at 8km and another
> road marker at 9km, would a house between the two have addr:milestone
> 8, 9 or 8.5?  If the address is of an actual road marker then addr:milestone
> would be appropriate (given that we already misuse highway=milestone
> to mean kilometre markers); if it's a dist

Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[Aaron Young]

What I'm unclear on is if these addresses refer to an actual road
marker, or an actual distance based upon interpolation between
actual road markers.  If you have a road marker at 8km and another
road marker at 9km, would a house between the two have addr:milestone
8, 9 or 8.5?  If the address is of an actual road marker then addr:milestone
would be appropriate (given that we already misuse highway=milestone
to mean kilometre markers); if it's a distance that doesn't correspond to
an actual road marker then we need a better name.
I would expect the address:milestone=8.5 would be used.  This is something that 
can be determined by software and is not always written on signage but widely 
used.

There are also usages within the US for emergency response purposes.  Highway 
call boxes often use mile marker or milestone reference to determine location 
of incident.  US highways have milemarker signage every mile to assist with 
this purpose.  Utilizing it in address finding throughout the world is a needed 
tag in my opinion.

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Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, 1 Oct 2019 at 13:34, santamariense  wrote:

>
> I am not sure about to keep "Km". It might be understandable by the
> key 'addr:milestone' itself.


It might.  OSM uses highway=milestone to mean a road marker in general,
rather than a traditional milestone (which was a stone with distances in
miles carved on it).  The OSM milestone may not have a distance marked
on it, but if the distance is given then it is assumed to be in kilometres
unless
a unit abbreviation follows.  So "9" would be 9 kilometres but "9 mi" would
be 9 miles.

I have to say that I think using "milestone" to mean a road marker that
isn't
a stone and probably isn't marked in miles was an incredibly bad idea.  But
we're stuck with it.  Even so, a default of kilometres for a thing called a
milestone is sub-optimal.

What I'm unclear on is if these addresses refer to an actual road
marker, or an actual distance based upon interpolation between
actual road markers.  If you have a road marker at 8km and another
road marker at 9km, would a house between the two have addr:milestone
8, 9 or 8.5?  If the address is of an actual road marker then addr:milestone
would be appropriate (given that we already misuse highway=milestone
to mean kilometre markers); if it's a distance that doesn't correspond to
an actual road marker then we need a better name.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[santamariense]

This tag only comes to give a standard to something that already is
being mapped off the cuff. When you search by "KM" in
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/addr:housenumber#values you
will find 2758 addr:housenumber that contains "KM" as part of their
values. Such information can be even found in addr:street itself. The
string "KM " is found 3025 times as part of the value of addr:street
(https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/addr:street#values), and 1864
times as part of addr:full
(https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/addr:full#values). And who
knows how many times people didn't add this information just why they
couldn't find a specific tag for it.

> We want to create a tag to enter this commonly-used data in a logical way
> and therefore propose that it be “addr:milestone=* / (* - Km. ##)”, which
> does seem to meet the criteria and can be easily interpreted and used
> accordingly by any editor.

I am not sure about to keep "Km". It might be understandable by the
key 'addr:milestone' itself. However, a reason to keep "Km" and "Mi"
as a prefix would be to differentiate each other. Anyways I think that
"." must go according to the "International System of Units".

> Could you please give us an example photo, Jorge?

I don't know if such examples could be easily found as images.
Although this is a very common situation in Brazil, it's rare when
people print it in the facade of a building, for example. As an
example of an image, that I personally know, I can present this
(https://imgur.com/a/qxiBmOo) that stands for this
(https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/376981766). The image is not good
enough but it's printed "Av. Pref. Evandro Behr | Km 8 . Nº 7921".
But...
I can present to you guys how many examples of links as you want. I
could say that most of the POIs at highways in rural areas have
milestone as part of their address. Some examples in Brazil:
* http://agrum.com.br/contato.html
* https://www.kmweg.com/company/locations/brazil/santa-maria.html
* http://lisalog.com.br/contato/
* https://www.vilma.com.br/a-vilma/unidades/
* https://portalgirassol.com.br/localizacao/
* http://www.agrex.com.br/contato/
* http://www.goldencargo.com.br/site2/index.php/estrutura/rede-de-filiais
* https://www.cantupneus.com.br/br/filiais
* http://www.jadetransportes.com.br/filiais/

> As they are rare they are either not at all in public records or
> with manipulating the km marker into the Housenumber. Typically
> addresses in Germany are only granted for lots and houses and
> telecoms infrastructure is often in public space so no addresses.

As in Brazil, it's widely used in rural areas, they are in public
records as well. They are used many times even there is a determined
value to addr:housenumber, so 'addr:milestone' could be used with or
without 'addr:housenumber', and always with 'addr:street'.

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Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[Mark Wagner]

On Tue, 01 Oct 2019 09:01:06 +0200
Colin Smale  wrote:

> On 2019-10-01 08:18, Florian Lohoff wrote:
> 
> > Hi Jorge,
> > 
> > On Mon, Sep 30, 2019 at 08:15:37PM -0600, Jorge Aguirre wrote: 
> >   
> >> Throughouthe entire Latin American region and some other parts of
> >> the world, it is quite common to find the kilometer (Km.)
> >> information, as may be found on the "highway:milestone", as part
> >> of the actual addresses. Mostly used in suburban and rural areas,
> >> which may usually not even have any visible references or even
> >> house numbers, the use of the milestone is widely utilized to find
> >> an address in these regions.  
> > 
> > We have such addresses in Germany too. They are pretty rare though.
> > sometimes really rural mobile masts or copper distribution
> > street cabinets and stuff carry addresses like this.  
> 
> I may be mistaken but I seem to remember mile markers being used in
> rural areas of the USA to indicate linear position along a main road.

It's extremely rare to use it directly as an address.  Instead, linear
position gets turned into a house number.  For example, a building
eight and a half miles from the start of Long Road might be "850 Long
Road". 

-- 
Mark

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Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[Dave Swarthout]

> I may be mistaken but I seem to remember mile markers being used in rural
areas of the USA to indicate linear position along a main road.

You are not mistaken. Many hotels and parks in the rural areas of Alaska
mark their location that way.

On Tue, Oct 1, 2019 at 2:06 PM Colin Smale  wrote:

> On 2019-10-01 08:18, Florian Lohoff wrote:
>
> Hi Jorge,
>
> On Mon, Sep 30, 2019 at 08:15:37PM -0600, Jorge Aguirre wrote:
>
> Throughouthe entire Latin American region and some other parts of
> the world, it is quite common to find the kilometer (Km.) information,
> as may be found on the "highway:milestone", as part of the actual
> addresses. Mostly used in suburban and rural areas, which may usually
> not even have any visible references or even house numbers, the use of
> the milestone is widely utilized to find an address in these regions.
>
>
> We have such addresses in Germany too. They are pretty rare though.
> sometimes really rural mobile masts or copper distribution
> street cabinets and stuff carry addresses like this.
>
> I may be mistaken but I seem to remember mile markers being used in rural
> areas of the USA to indicate linear position along a main road.
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-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 1. Oct 2019, at 08:18, Florian Lohoff  wrote:
> 
> We have such addresses in Germany too.


In Italy you can find them as well, they are not uncommon for properties along 
through roads outside of settlements and for highway rest areas.
Currently I’m either using addr:full or in some cases have added them as 
addr:housenumber (when they write the number on the gate)

I would welcome a more structured way to add these.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[Colin Smale]

On 2019-10-01 08:18, Florian Lohoff wrote:

> Hi Jorge,
> 
> On Mon, Sep 30, 2019 at 08:15:37PM -0600, Jorge Aguirre wrote: 
> 
>> Throughouthe entire Latin American region and some other parts of
>> the world, it is quite common to find the kilometer (Km.) information,
>> as may be found on the "highway:milestone", as part of the actual
>> addresses. Mostly used in suburban and rural areas, which may usually
>> not even have any visible references or even house numbers, the use of
>> the milestone is widely utilized to find an address in these regions.
> 
> We have such addresses in Germany too. They are pretty rare though.
> sometimes really rural mobile masts or copper distribution
> street cabinets and stuff carry addresses like this.

I may be mistaken but I seem to remember mile markers being used in
rural areas of the USA to indicate linear position along a main road.___
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Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[Florian Lohoff]

Hi Jorge,

On Mon, Sep 30, 2019 at 08:15:37PM -0600, Jorge Aguirre wrote:
> Throughout the entire Latin American region and some other parts of
> the world, it is quite common to find the kilometer (Km.) information,
> as may be found on the “highway:milestone”, as part of the actual
> addresses. Mostly used in suburban and rural areas, which may usually
> not even have any visible references or even house numbers, the use of
> the milestone is widely utilized to find an address in these regions. 

We have such addresses in Germany too. They are pretty rare though.
sometimes really rural mobile masts or copper distribution
street cabinets and stuff carry addresses like this.

As they are rare they are either not at all in public records or
with manipulating the km marker into the Housenumber. Typically
addresses in Germany are only granted for lots and houses and
telecoms infrastructure is often in public space so no addresses.

I have seen addresses in Telecoms records like "An der Bundesstraße,
Km 4,4".
 
> The highway milestone information may also be found in addresses
> within urban areas, even with the existence of house numbers, as these
> numbers frequently repeat themselves and the only difference between
> them is the exact location on a specific highway - based on and easily
> identified with these milestones.
> 
> We want to create a tag to enter this commonly-used data in a logical
> way and therefore propose that it be “addr:milestone=* / (* - Km.
> ##)”, which does seem to meet the criteria and can be easily
> interpreted and used accordingly by any editor.

So you propose to put the address on the Milestone or on the housing
which uses this Address?

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
UTF-8 Test: The 🐈 ran after a 🐁, but the 🐁 ran away


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Re: [Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Could you please give us an example photo, Jorge?

Thanks

Graeme


On Tue, 1 Oct 2019 at 12:18, Jorge Aguirre  wrote:

> Throughout the entire Latin American region and some other parts of the
> world, it is quite common to find the kilometer (Km.) information, as may
> be found on the “highway:milestone”, as part of the actual addresses.
> Mostly used in suburban and rural areas, which may usually not even have
> any visible references or even house numbers, the use of the milestone is
> widely utilized to find an address in these regions.
>
> The highway milestone information may also be found in addresses within
> urban areas, even with the existence of house numbers, as these numbers
> frequently repeat themselves and the only difference between them is the
> exact location on a specific highway - based on and easily identified with
> these milestones.
>
> We want to create a tag to enter this commonly-used data in a logical way
> and therefore propose that it be “addr:milestone=* / (* - Km. ##)”, which
> does seem to meet the criteria and can be easily interpreted and used
> accordingly by any editor.
>
>
> Jorge - JAAS
>
>
> Jorge Aguirre  | Kaart  |  +502.4191.1999  |  jorge.agui...@kaart.com
>
>
> KAART CONFIDENTIAL
> This message (including any attachments) is for the private use of the
> addressee only and may contain confidential or privileged information. If
> you have received this message by mistake please notify the sender by
> return e-mail and delete this message and any attachments from your system.
> Any unauthorized use or dissemination of this message, and any attachments
> in whole or in part is strictly prohibited.
>
>
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[Tagging] New tag proposal: 'addr=milestone'

[Jorge Aguirre]

Throughout the entire Latin American region and some other parts of the world, 
it is quite common to find the kilometer (Km.) information, as may be found on 
the “highway:milestone”, as part of the actual addresses. Mostly used in 
suburban and rural areas, which may usually not even have any visible 
references or even house numbers, the use of the milestone is widely utilized 
to find an address in these regions. 

The highway milestone information may also be found in addresses within urban 
areas, even with the existence of house numbers, as these numbers frequently 
repeat themselves and the only difference between them is the exact location on 
a specific highway - based on and easily identified with these milestones.

We want to create a tag to enter this commonly-used data in a logical way and 
therefore propose that it be “addr:milestone=* / (* - Km. ##)”, which does seem 
to meet the criteria and can be easily interpreted and used accordingly by any 
editor.


Jorge - JAAS


Jorge Aguirre  | Kaart  |  +502.4191.1999  |  jorge.agui...@kaart.com


KAART CONFIDENTIAL
This message (including any attachments) is for the private use of the 
addressee only and may contain confidential or privileged information. If you 
have received this message by mistake please notify the sender by return e-mail 
and delete this message and any attachments from your system. Any unauthorized 
use or dissemination of this message, and any attachments in whole or in part 
is strictly prohibited.


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