Re: [Tagging] RFD pipeline sub tag substance
Sorry, I was thinking of gas as a product (as in natural gas), not a state of matter. Confusing, so I proposed natural_gas for natural gas. I was thinking of substance=* as a category (water, fuel, oil, gas, coolant, etc etc I think we need (as often as possible) to tag separately nature and purpose, otherwise it gets messy. * nature, matter, substance, with eg. substance:name = * * use, usage, purpose... with eg. pipeline:usage = drinking_water, wastewater/sewage, drain/irrigation, transport/transmission, heating, coolant, industrial, communication... The categories with only one key are not well cut. Water can be coolant, oil can be fuel, ... We should not mix nature and purpose. And it should be clear in the keys. The mapper could fill what he knows (nature and/or purpose) and leave what is unknown. substance:state=* one of the 3 states, along with multi and slurry. Solid is assumed to be pneumatic then? I would prefer another term than solid. state=solid is apparently a match for cables... so it implies static=yes ;) ;) maybe powder or something like particles_in_gas if substance:moving=yes ;) ;) ;) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD pipeline sub tag substance
John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: Substance=gas Substance:detailed:multiphase_gas Substance:state=multi That is not coherent. Do you mean that (substance=gas) is for mainly gas or gas-only? If it is gas only (substance=gas), it can be multiple gaseous products. But it is not multiphase. And then state=gas, not state=multi. substance=multi is about OK as a shorthand. Using multi -- instead of actual values -- may also imply you are not going to give further detailed tagging. substance=multiphase is really awkward. I think it would be substance:detailed:multiphase_gas for a particular item, not as a general description. Otherwise, it is multi for the state or matter... Right? Right, multi for state. My previous proposals were: 1. substance:state = * or substance:phase = * values limited to list eg.: gas, liquid, solid (cables), slurry (=liquid+solid particles), multi (=multiphase, mostly gas and liquid, possibly particles) 2. I advocated for phase/state=multi or multiphase substance=[multi-valued] eg. substance=oil;gas;water ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD pipeline sub tag substance
Is there some decision on helping it all in one tag - Btw - isn't it states of matter? Substance:state= solid liquid gas (plasma?) multi would a pneumatic garbage pipe be gas or solid, since it moves solid stuff (and implies pneumatic or such ?) Substance=gas Substance:detailed:multiphase_gas Substance:state=multi Substance=water Substance:detailed=grey_water Substance:state=liquid Substance=other Substance=poodles Substance:state=solid (pneumatic implied?) , Not so good. ;) substance=multi is about OK as a shorthand. Using multi -- instead of actual values -- may also imply you are not going to give further detailed tagging. substance=multiphase is really awkward. I think it would be substance:detailed:multiphase_gas for a particular item, not as a general description. Otherwise, it is multi for the state or matter... Right? Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD pipeline sub tag substance
On Jan 30, 2015, at 6:51 PM, althio althio.fo...@gmail.com wrote: John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: Substance=gas Substance:detailed:multiphase_gas Substance:state=multi That is not coherent. Do you mean that (substance=gas) is for mainly gas or gas-only? If it is gas only (substance=gas), it can be multiple gaseous products. But it is not multiphase. And then state=gas, not state=multi. Sorry, I was thinking of gas as a product (as in natural gas), not a state of matter. I was thinking of substance=* as a category (water, fuel, oil, gas, coolant, etc etc State would be multi. substance=multi is about OK as a shorthand. Using multi -- instead of actual values -- may also imply you are not going to give further detailed tagging. substance=multiphase is really awkward. I think it would be substance:detailed:multiphase_gas for a particular item, not as a general description. Otherwise, it is multi for the state or matter... Right? Right, multi for state. My previous proposals were: 1. substance:state = * or substance:phase = * values limited to list eg.: gas, liquid, solid (cables), slurry (=liquid+solid particles), multi (=multiphase, mostly gas and liquid, possibly particles) 2. I advocated for phase/state=multi or multiphase substance=[multi-valued] eg. substance=oil;gas;water +1 Substance=* should be a category Substance:detailed=* exact value that is easily added by taggers substance:state=* one of the 3 states, along with multi and slurry. Solid is assumed to be pneumatic then? Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD pipeline sub tag substance
2015-01-29 5:41 GMT+01:00 johnw jo...@mac.com: if this is the proper term used for pipelines, then this would be the right one, Otherwise, =multi (like sports) would be the best. but you would not need such a tag, since it would be substance=gas substance:detailed=multiphase_gas if you keep it at two levels of detail (water, gas, oil, fuel, sewage, heat, coolant, etc), I'd like to repeat once again that substance doesn't seem to be a nice key descriptor for values like gas, fuel, heat, as it refers to physical matter/material and heat or gas or fuel in its actual meaning aren't materials. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD pipeline sub tag substance
Am 29.01.2015 um 10:59 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer: 2015-01-29 5:41 GMT+01:00 johnw jo...@mac.com mailto:jo...@mac.com: if this is the proper term used for pipelines, then this would be the right one, Otherwise, =multi (like sports) would be the best. but you would not need such a tag, since it would be substance=gas substance:detailed=multiphase_gas if you keep it at two levels of detail (water, gas, oil, fuel, sewage, heat, coolant, etc), I'd like to repeat once again that substance doesn't seem to be a nice key descriptor for values like gas, fuel, heat, as it refers to physical matter/material and heat or gas or fuel in its actual meaning aren't materials. +1 but what do you suggest. Do we need a key for the state of matter or better use water_steam or hot_water or fluid_propane ? using the colon separator would keep from making additional tags (everything would be kept in the substance tagspace) - especially generic tags like fuel= water= gas= which might have uses elsewhere (like the water_tap discussion here earlier) or be confused for other uses (like not a subkey, but a straight key by itself), someone could stick fuel=unleaded_87 onto a gas station. Or does that already exist? Have a look at fuel=* [1]. Nice, we already have the value in key variant and a key=value variant with possibility to use semi-colon. At least, we should consider the same tags for the same substances/fuels. How about substance=wood_pallets. cu fly [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:fuel ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD pipeline sub tag substance
Throwing out my ideas... Disclaimer: These are generic proposals for pipeline sub-tagging with example values for illustration. I do not want to derail this towards water/drinking_water and multi-values (semicolon or namespaced). ;) I propose 3 keys: use/purpose (as main subtag), state/phase and substance/name. pipeline:use = * or pipeline:purpose = * values limited to list eg.: drinking_water, wastewater/sewage, drain/irrigation, transport/transmission, heating, coolant, industrial, communication... [IMO this is the most interesting data to be rendered or externally used: the intent of the pipeline] May clash or need to be merged with the tag for pipeline: usage = * (currently very specific and oilgas oriented). Then additionally, because it can be informative and described with fixed values substance:state = * or substance:phase = * values limited to list eg.: gas, liquid, solid (cables), slurry (=liquid+solid particles), multi (=multiphase, mostly gas and liquid, possibly particles) Then, a bit of freedom with free-form value (possibly multi-values): substance:name = *, eg.: water, fresh_water, grey_water, steam... natural_gas, oil... chemical... cables, optic_fiber... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD pipeline sub tag substance
I'd like to repeat once again that substance doesn't seem to be a nice key descriptor for values like ... during the draft stage, I (we) couldn't come up with an expression that covered everything that might one day be transported in a pipeline. content ... too static medium ... too spooky product ... is sewage a product? type ... too generic and already in use and what exactly is a neutron bean? etc. a native english speaker may come up with a proper expression, but I'd better not change this key once again. Oh.. 'multiphase' is a mixture of gas, fuel and water as it comes out of some well heads if this is the proper term used for pipelines, then this would be the right one, yes, multiphase is a term used in the oilgas industry for exactly this, uhm, substance. cu ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD pipeline sub tag substance
On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Rainer Fügenstein r...@oudeis.org wrote: during the draft stage, I (we) couldn't come up with an expression that covered everything that might one day be transported in a pipeline. fluid? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD pipeline sub tag substance
and what exactly is a neutron bean? correction: should read neutron beam ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD pipeline sub tag substance
On 30/01/2015 5:07 AM, Rainer Fügenstein wrote: I'd like to repeat once again that substance doesn't seem to be a nice key descriptor for values like ... during the draft stage, I (we) couldn't come up with an expression that covered everything that might one day be transported in a pipeline. content ... too static medium ... too spooky product ... is sewage a product? type ... too generic and already in use and what exactly is a neutron beam? etc. a native english speaker may come up with a proper expression, but I'd better not change this key once again. Why not, if it is better? After all the values are being considered for re-organisation? I don't understand the reluctance particularly with the present low usage of some 400 items? I too am not comfortable with 'substance' ... transports, carries, transmits, bears are possibilities... but I'm still thinking about it. I think 'bears' is best at the moment as that fits the 'substance=cables' which the others are not so well suited. Oh.. 'multiphase' is a mixture of gas, fuel and water as it comes out of some well heads if this is the proper term used for pipelines, then this would be the right one, yes, multiphase is a term used in the oilgas industry for exactly this, uhm, substance. cu Good. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD pipeline sub tag substance
On 29/01/2015 3:41 PM, johnw wrote: substance=fuel substance:detailed=drinking_water isn't it just as error prone as substance=fuel fuel=drinking_water ? As the error is on one line it is easier for a human to pick up, either as it is made or on checking. An error that is a relation between two or more lines would be much harder for a human it detect, particularly when there is no error on the individual lines themselves. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD pipeline sub tag substance
On 28/01/2015 10:57 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: if you want the liquid information, use aggregate_state=liquid IMHO for pipelines it would be more interesting to tag the pressure and the inner diameter of the tube. Agreed in part. If 'we' tag what we see at the site .. then the pipe line it self is first then the outside diameter of the pipe is next. The difference between inside and outside diameters in most cases (except of small pipes .. and they are not something 'we' would be mapping at the moment?) would be small, and probably much less than the mappers error in estimating the pipe's diameter (outer)? Very minor point. To cover any case .. just use diameter? And let the mapper use what ever they think is easiest/best? Does what is inside the pipe need to be tagged? Yes .. because that is the reason for the existence of the pipe. And tells us a lot about where it comes from and goes too. Ok? Pressure and temperature and substance would give the state (if mostly only one substance is present) so maybe the state does not need to be tagged? Water .. why is this such a problem? Because it has so many uses, is so common? And 'we' assume so much about it? So 'we' have to deal with it... I too like 'grey water' .. but its meaning is too specific. I like some descritor that covers water that is not drinking water and not sewerage... that would include grey water, storm and water used for air-conditioning? Or am I trying to be too general? Maybe; potable water grey water - includes storm water industrial water (as used for heating, cooling, washing things etc) [hate that 'etc'!] sewerage 4 categories? I'd like to reduce that to 3 .. but does not look like it is going to happen. Ideas? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD pipeline sub tag substance
On 29 January 2015 at 22:54, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: On 30/01/2015 5:07 AM, Rainer Fügenstein wrote: I'd like to repeat once again that substance doesn't seem to be a nice key descriptor for values like ... content ... too static medium ... too spooky product ... is sewage a product? type ... too generic and already in use I too am not comfortable with 'substance' ... transports, carries, transmits, bears are possibilities... I am OK with substance, content, medium or product. Oh.. 'multiphase' is a mixture of gas, fuel and water as it comes out of some well heads if this is the proper term used for pipelines, then this would be the right one, yes, multiphase is a term used in the oilgas industry for exactly this, uhm, substance. Good. Not so good. ;) substance=multi is about OK as a shorthand. Using multi -- instead of actual values -- may also imply you are not going to give further detailed tagging. substance=multiphase is really awkward. In a previous post I advocated for phase/state=multi or multiphase substance=[multi-valued] eg. substance=oil;gas;water ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD pipeline sub tag substance
2015-01-28 13:06 GMT+01:00 SomeoneElse li...@atownsend.org.uk: grey water has a specific meaning (waste water that isn't sewage and can be further used for e.g. irrigation). If that's what you mean - great. If you just mean water that you can't drink, then just use something that describes it, like water. thanks for pointing this out. If you are interested in the details, you can have a deeper read here: EN 12056-1 ;-) Although http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:substance says water == fresh water for drinking purposes that doesn't match the real world. +1 Mappers adding e.g. irrigation pipes aren't going to check the wiki; they'll just say that's a water pipe, so data consumers can't assume that substance=water == fresh water for drinking purposes. +1 I also take back my suggestion above, which was drinkable=yes/no, because in the case we are discussing here, we are talking about a pipeline. We'd need a tag referring to the water in the pipeline, because it is not the pipeline itself which is drinkable. Maybe water:drinkable=yes/no could do it. Btw.: if you follow this argumentation, this issue is also occurring for other features like water taps or fountains (on a semantic level, amenity=fountain, drinkable=yes doesn't make sense). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD pipeline sub tag substance
Hello Warin, Wednesday, January 28, 2015, 8:48:16 AM, you wrote: W Request For Discussion W http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:substance thanks for picking up thus topic. I have to leave in a few minutes for a 6 week assignment, therefore only just a few words: - my intention impression was that - as of now - substance=* is a tag to be chosen wisely (cough) by whoever needs it, but more definition structure is definitely a goal. - I was thinking of a kind of main type, sub type scheme, i.e. substance=fuel substance:detailed=kerosine substance=fuel substance:detailed=diesel substance=water substance:detailed=drinking_water etc. cu --- Je Suis Charlie ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD pipeline sub tag substance
2015-01-28 12:01 GMT+01:00 Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com: So for natural gas worked out to that basic level, as one example, that would be substance = gas gas=fuel fuel=natural_gas I believe this is pointlessly complicated and semantically incorrect, why not tag: substance=natural_gas None of this colon/semicolon business that has got people so worked up :) And it may reduce the errors of tagging things like substance=fuel fuel is not a substance but describes a purpose (stuff to provide heat and/or power by combustion). You might see this as a common informal way to refer to gasoline / petrol but I wouldn't advocate something like this for a tagging scheme. substance = liquid liquid=water water=drinking (or potable?) Other ideas? Kick them around guys.. brainstorm it. substance=water drinkable=yes if you want the liquid information, use aggregate_state=liquid IMHO for pipelines it would be more interesting to tag the pressure and the inner diameter of the tube. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD pipeline sub tag substance
On 28/01/2015 11:43, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2015-01-28 8:48 GMT+01:00 Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com mailto:61sundow...@gmail.com: Unfortunately this does not have a tag for non drinking water .. possible values could be non-potable_water grey_water I like grey_water grey water has a specific meaning (waste water that isn't sewage and can be further used for e.g. irrigation). If that's what you mean - great. If you just mean water that you can't drink, then just use something that describes it, like water. Although http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:substance says water == fresh water for drinking purposes that doesn't match the real world. Mappers adding e.g. irrigation pipes aren't going to check the wiki; they'll just say that's a water pipe, so data consumers can't assume that substance=water == fresh water for drinking purposes. Cheers, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD pipeline sub tag substance
On 28/01/2015 8:41 PM, Rainer Fügenstein wrote: Hello Warin, Wednesday, January 28, 2015, 8:48:16 AM, you wrote: W Request For Discussion W http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:substance thanks for picking up thus topic. I have to leave in a few minutes for a 6 week assignment, therefore only just a few words: - my intention impression was that - as of now - substance=* is a tag to be chosen wisely (cough) by whoever needs it, but more definition structure is definitely a goal. - I was thinking of a kind of main type, sub type scheme, i.e. substance=fuel substance:detailed=kerosine substance=fuel substance:detailed=diesel substance=water substance:detailed=drinking_water etc. cu --- Je Suis Charlie Have a good trip. In the mean time ... More organisation with sub tags as I call them? At a base physics level substance = solid, liquid, gas .. Don't know if that level of reduction is needed? And it would need the addition of slurry anyway! And I don't know of 'multiphase' (as in how to fit it in)? So for natural gas worked out to that basic level, as one example, that would be substance = gas gas=fuel fuel=natural_gas None of this colon/semicolon business that has got people so worked up :) And it may reduce the errors of tagging things like substance=fuel substance:detailed=drinking_water And it too gets around drinking_water as that becomes substance = liquid liquid=water water=drinking (or potable?) Other ideas? Kick them around guys.. brainstorm it. Oh.. 'multiphase' is a mixture of gas, fuel and water as it comes out of some well heads (as stated on the wiki). Interested to see any ideas on a good tag for that .. nice puzzle that one. Maybe it is the physics tag of multiphase as in containg all the states of gas, liquid and solid. Fits... anyone know? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD pipeline sub tag substance
2015-01-28 8:48 GMT+01:00 Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com: Unfortunately this does not have a tag for non drinking water .. possible values could be non-potable_water grey_water I like grey_water According to taginfo the values in decreasing use are water (30%), gas, heat, sewrage, oil, hot water (20%), electricity (should be 'cable' according to the wiki), sewage (3%), oxygen, coal, lng, fuel. http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/substance#values at least heat and electricity are no substances at all, gas isn't a substance either but a state of aggregation, lng and H2S are abbreviations or chemical codes (rather than British English words), IMHO you don't have to take these usage numbers too seriously, as this key has a total usage of only 430 and there don't seem reasonable semantics to be in use. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD pipeline sub tag substance
hi, first, I wouldn't use the value of substance=* as key for the detailed level, because in this case we would introduce a new key (i.e. fuel=) whenever a new substance is introduced (i.e. substance=fuel). second, I'd stick with two levels (general, detailed), otherwise we'd eventually end up with a substance having 8 levels, down to the molecular structure. cu So for natural gas worked out to that basic level, as one example, that would be substance = gas gas=fuel fuel=natural_gas None of this colon/semicolon business that has got people so worked up :) And it may reduce the errors of tagging things like substance=fuel substance:detailed=drinking_water And it too gets around drinking_water as that becomes substance = liquid liquid=water water=drinking (or potable?) Other ideas? Kick them around guys.. brainstorm it. Oh.. 'multiphase' is a mixture of gas, fuel and water as it comes out of some well heads (as stated on the wiki). Interested to see any ideas on a good tag for that .. nice puzzle that one. Maybe it is the physics tag of multiphase as in containg all the states of gas, liquid and solid. Fits... anyone know? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] RFD pipeline sub tag substance
On Jan 28, 2015, at 8:01 PM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: Oh.. 'multiphase' is a mixture of gas, fuel and water as it comes out of some well heads if this is the proper term used for pipelines, then this would be the right one, Otherwise, =multi (like sports) would be the best. but you would not need such a tag, since it would be substance=gas substance:detailed=multiphase_gas if you keep it at two levels of detail (water, gas, oil, fuel, sewage, heat, coolant, etc), include a catch-all like “other”, so if someone has a maple syrup pipeline (for instance - one can only dream) it can get thrown into other. There might also need to be an “industrial” one, in case someone is moving some industrial chemical that wouldn’t fit into the scheme either, though I’m not sure how exactly that would be worded. micro-mapping certain industrial facilities would require something like this. substance=fuel substance:detailed=drinking_water isn't it just as error prone as substance=fuel fuel=drinking_water ? using the colon separator would keep from making additional tags (everything would be kept in the substance tagspace) - especially generic tags like fuel= water= gas= which might have uses elsewhere (like the water_tap discussion here earlier) or be confused for other uses (like not a subkey, but a straight key by itself), someone could stick fuel=unleaded_87 onto a gas station. Or does that already exist? Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] RFD pipeline sub tag substance
Request For Discussion http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:substance Pipe lines currently exist for non drinking water in various part of the world. And have done for some time. They are becoming more numerous as efforts to save water and reduce environmental impacts increase. Unfortunately this does not have a tag for non drinking water .. possible values could be non-potable_water grey_water Not recycled water as that is too restrictive .. it could be from a river/lake that is not suitable for drinking. Or even rain water that has not been checked for drinkablity. I note thatif the medium of a pipeline you are tagging is not listed here, please choose a meaningful value at your own discretion.However that will lead to multiple values all meaning the same thing or be too restrictive. Should this be a 'RFC' as in a request for comment? According to taginfo the values in decreasing use are water (30%), gas, heat, sewrage, oil, hot water (20%), electricity (should be 'cable' according to the wiki), sewage (3%), oxygen, coal, lng, fuel. I note This tag has a status unspecified' .. that probaly means it has not been voted on here. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
