Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
Hi. I'm not sure where best to add this in the huge discussion tree now, but I stumbled upon this article out of the German magazine Spiegel a few minutes ago: http://www.spiegel.de/reise/europa/franzosen-wollen-begriff-restaurant-schuetzen-a-904427.html While it deals most with what's a restaurant and that the traditional cooks want to preserve restaurant (or the French variant of course) as some kind of quality label, French bakers did that already. Quote: Vorbild sind die Bäcker, die 1998 gegen den Vormarsch der Supermarkt-Baguettes erreichten, dass die Kennzeichnung Boulangerie (Bäckerei) nur noch für Läden gilt, in denen Mehl gemischt, Teig geknetet und Brot gebacken wird. roughly translated: A Boulangerie is only suitable for shops where flour is mixed, dough is worked and bread is baked. regards Peter Am 02.06.2013 11:04, schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer: I'd like to advertise the tag shop=pastry for places that sell (and usually produce) sweet bakery products pastry, cakes, biscuits, strudel etc. opposed to what usually is referred to as confectionery (candies, sweets). IMHO these are two quite distinct places and I don't think its a good idea to mix them up like the page of shop=confectionery currently suggests to do: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dconfectionery (a shop selling sweets and pastry). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 1:42 PM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.comwrote: This sounds like a reasonable compromise. Incidentally, I am an American and would not classify pastries and confections as the same thing, although one shop will sometimes sell both. I would tend to think of a bread shop as a shop that sells bread, and perhaps other baked goods, but does not do its own baking. Typically, these shops sell goods originating from a single industrial-scale bakery, and which have been returned by grocery stores after they did not sell, but which are still in good condition. Some tweaks to my proposal. Changing shop=bread to shop=bread_bakery should help with those who first think of an outlet store when seeing shop=bread and those that are reluctant to disassociate shops that sell bread from the term bakery. I'm also thinking the wiki pages for shop=bakery and shop=bread_bakery should have an explanation of the importance and special status that shops that sell the bread used as a staple have in continental Europe and some other regions of the world including some of the non-English terms used for them, e.g. backerei, boulangerie for a bread bakery. Addition of the sub tag bakery_outlet=yes which would be defined as a shop which may sell fresh products but specializes in the sale of bakery products nearing their freshness expiration. Sometimes called a day-old bakery shop. It is not uncommon in America for people wanting to save money to search for such stores since prices can be half that of grocery stores or other retail bakeries. I suspect such stores exist in other countries that have large commercial bakeries. The tag could be used with either bakery or bread_bakery, some I've been in do 90% of their business in bread (so shop=bread_bakery) and others do 50% bread and 50% donuts, cakes, cookies and pastries (so shop=bakery). I've not heard any one call change a bad idea or strenuously object to my latter proposal. I believe the next step for such changes to make it to the official wiki pages is to make a proposal page and go through a vote; (someone let me know if this is wrong). I'll start working on such a page and mock-ups of the changes to the current features page, the replacement shop=bakery and shop=confectionery pages, and the new shop=bread_bakery, bakery sub tags, and confectionery sub tags pages. Any pages I've overlooked? Should be fun! (I have not really done any wiki editing or work before.) It seems it may be useful to have bakery sub tags for regulatory reasons or entrenched custom for the European region where a shop can only have a specific name if a certified professional is employed or the goods must be created on premises. I would need help with those and would expect them to be explained and justified in this email thread or the discussion page of the proposal when it is up. Murry ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
Am 08.06.2013 17:32, schrieb Murry McEntire: On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 1:42 PM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com mailto:j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: This sounds like a reasonable compromise. Incidentally, I am an American and would not classify pastries and confections as the same thing, although one shop will sometimes sell both. I would tend to think of a bread shop as a shop that sells bread, and perhaps other baked goods, but does not do its own baking. Typically, these shops sell goods originating from a single industrial-scale bakery, and which have been returned by grocery stores after they did not sell, but which are still in good condition. Some tweaks to my proposal. Changing shop=bread to shop=bread_bakery should help with those who first think of an outlet store when seeing shop=bread and those that are reluctant to disassociate shops that sell bread from the term bakery. I'm also thinking the wiki pages for shop=bakery and shop=bread_bakery should have an explanation of the importance and special status that shops that sell the bread used as a staple have in continental Europe and some other regions of the world including some of the non-English terms used for them, e.g. backerei, boulangerie for a bread bakery. Addition of the sub tag bakery_outlet=yes which would be defined as a shop which may sell fresh products but specializes in the sale of bakery products nearing their freshness expiration. Sometimes called a day-old bakery shop. It is not uncommon in America for people wanting to save money to search for such stores since prices can be half that of grocery stores or other retail bakeries. I suspect such stores exist in other countries that have large commercial bakeries. The tag could be used with either bakery or bread_bakery, some I've been in do 90% of their business in bread (so shop=bread_bakery) and others do 50% bread and 50% donuts, cakes, cookies and pastries (so shop=bakery). Why not use outlet= or product_outlet=only/yes/no, similar to organic= We have lots of outlet shops not only bakeries and it gets more and more common to sell products the next day instead of throwing them in the trash. I've not heard any one call change a bad idea or strenuously object to my latter proposal. I believe the next step for such changes to make it to the official wiki pages is to make a proposal page and go through a vote; (someone let me know if this is wrong). I'll start working on such a page and mock-ups of the changes to the current features page, the replacement shop=bakery and shop=confectionery pages, and the new shop=bread_bakery, bakery sub tags, and confectionery sub tags pages. Any pages I've overlooked? Should be fun! (I have not really done any wiki editing or work before.) It seems it may be useful to have bakery sub tags for regulatory reasons or entrenched custom for the European region where a shop can only have a specific name if a certified professional is employed or the goods must be created on premises. I would need help with those and would expect them to be explained and justified in this email thread or the discussion page of the proposal when it is up. bakery:pastry=cake A tag to differ between all at once baked products and bake-off ones would be nice. Not sure about if a more general tag is better as there is other food which might be bake-off or reheated. Cheers fly P.S.: The more I think about it the more difficult it gets: I know several shop=convenience which sell bread and other goods from local bakeries. How to tag this ? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
Am 08.06.2013 17:26, schrieb Peter Wendorff: Hi. I'm not sure where best to add this in the huge discussion tree now, but I stumbled upon this article out of the German magazine Spiegel a few minutes ago: http://www.spiegel.de/reise/europa/franzosen-wollen-begriff-restaurant-schuetzen-a-904427.html While it deals most with what's a restaurant and that the traditional cooks want to preserve restaurant (or the French variant of course) as some kind of quality label, French bakers did that already. Quote: Vorbild sind die Bäcker, die 1998 gegen den Vormarsch der Supermarkt-Baguettes erreichten, dass die Kennzeichnung Boulangerie (Bäckerei) nur noch für Läden gilt, in denen Mehl gemischt, Teig geknetet und Brot gebacken wird. roughly translated: A Boulangerie is only suitable for shops where flour is mixed, dough is worked and bread is baked. We should use craft=baker for these. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
2013/6/8 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com Am 08.06.2013 17:26, schrieb Peter Wendorff: roughly translated: A Boulangerie is only suitable for shops where flour is mixed, dough is worked and bread is baked. We should use craft=baker for these. +1, I also see this as a valid option, like Andreas Labres wrote quite in the beginning of this thread, traditionally this is a question of different crafts in many European countries. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
Why not record the URL of the store in website=*? That way people can visit the store's website and see for themselves what they sell. The benefit of this is that if the shop alters their range of goods you don't need to alter the tags. The store will update their website. So, all you need is a top-level generic tag (shop=bakery, meaning general baked goods store). Personally, I think generic tags are perfectly sufficient. If I visit an unfamiliar town, and I am looking for a certain item, such as artisanal bread baked by unicorns, I am quite happy to see a list of half a dozen potential places in OSM (maybe all tagged shop=bakery) and then explore them myself to find out which one is best for what I want. Furthermore, when I am tagging I don't want to agonise over which of 100 tags is appropriate. This is the key to map making- knowing what to omit. Best wishes, Andrew On 7 June 2013 14:42, Johan Jönsson joha...@goteborg.cc wrote: Michael Krämer ohrosm@... writes: ..snip.. Basically I think we're on the same page: To my understanding we agree that there's a need to differentiate between the different kinds of baked goods. So the problem is how to classify and name these. But as pretty often I guess that's where trouble starts. ..snip.. Murry McEntire murry.mcentire@... writes: ..snip.. 1) Pastries should definitely not be listed as a product of shop=confectionery.2) A more correct definition for shop=bakery is selling cakes, pastries, pies and bread -- or tongue in cheek: selling cakes, pastries, pies and sometimes bread, but rarely bread alone ..snip.. Murry It looks too me that both american Murry and german Michael have found that a breadselling shop is different from a pastry-selling shop. So why not do as the Original Poster, Martin, wrote and distinguish these two. (The discussed problem seem to be that bread-shop is bäckerei in german and that pastry-shop is bakery in english, similar name for different things) We might even need to go so far to consider to abandon shop=bakery and use shop=bread and shop=pastry instead. p.s. Shop=bakery and shop=butcher where the first shop-values, when the shop-key broke out from amenity-key. These two really are old entities that have been with us in our culture for a long time and kind of demands to be tagged. d.s. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
2013/6/7 Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com Why not record the URL of the store in website=*? That way people can visit the store's website and see for themselves what they sell. of course you do this IF they have a website (traditional smaller ones usually won't have a website I guess, not even in 2013), but this isn't an alternative to setting a class. If you wanted to see how many bakeries (that sell bread, not exclusively cakes) are in Germany, with your system you needed months to check ;-) Thought your argument to the extreme, you would only tag website=* and poi=yes ;-) cheers, Martin -- Martin Koppenhoefer (Dipl-Ing. Arch.) Via del Santuario Regina degli Apostoli, 18 00145 Roma |I|I|I|I|I|I|I|I| Italia N41.851, E12.4824 tel1: +39 06.916508070 tel2: +49 30 868708638 mobil: +39 392 3114712 mobil: +49 1577 7793740 m...@koppenhoefer.com http://www.koppenhoefer.com Hinweis: Diese Nachricht wurde manuell erstellt. Wir bemühen uns um fehlerfreie Korrespondenz, dennoch kann es in Ausnahmefällen vorkommen, dass bei der manuellen Übertragung von Informationen in elektronische Medien die übertragenen Informationen Fehler aufweisen. Wir bitten Sie, dies zu entschuldigen. Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of koppenhoefer.com unless specifically stated. This email and any files attached are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify postmas...@koppenhoefer.com Please note that to ensure regulatory compliance and for the protection of our clients and business, we may monitor and read messages sent to and from our systems. Thank You. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
On Fri, 07 Jun 2013 17:42:32 Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2013/6/7 Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com Why not record the URL of the store in website=*? That way people can visit the store's website and see for themselves what they sell. of course you do this IF they have a website (traditional smaller ones usually won't have a website I guess, not even in 2013), but this isn't an alternative to setting a class. If you wanted to see how many bakeries (that sell bread, not exclusively cakes) are in Germany, with your system you needed months to check ;-) I only need to check the ones that are within 500m of my hotel. :) Thought your argument to the extreme, you would only tag website=* and poi=yes ;-) You know, I've been thinking that might be a possibility. Allow a website owner to hold his or her own tags. The tags could be held in a file on the website in much the same way as robots.txt or an RSS feed, or a vcard file, and the store/facility/whetever has an object (node or area) in OSM with the URL. A program periodically extracts objects from the OSM database and fetches the tags from the store's website. Tags are added, modified or deleted appropriately. I suppose we could do something similar to this now, if the store's URL is in the OSM database we could try to extract things like phone number and address by querying the webpage, after all, it's all machine readable. If we can't trust it to be completely automatic the results could be passed to a human for verification. While I am on this flight of fancy, how about Update POI by email? Send an email to an OSM address containing the object ID and a list of tags. A program at OSM receives the email, checks the sender's ID against the database of OSM users, and updates the tags based on the contents of the email. If the message can not be parsed or it contains any errors then it is all discarded and the sender notified. Best wishes, Andrew ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
2013/6/7 Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com While I am on this flight of fancy, how about Update POI by email? some time ago there was a proposal to update POI by twitter IIRR, maybe that service is still active? cheers, Martin -- Martin Koppenhoefer (Dipl-Ing. Arch.) Via del Santuario Regina degli Apostoli, 18 00145 Roma |I|I|I|I|I|I|I|I| Italia N41.851, E12.4824 tel1: +39 06.916508070 tel2: +49 30 868708638 mobil: +39 392 3114712 mobil: +49 1577 7793740 m...@koppenhoefer.com http://www.koppenhoefer.com Hinweis: Diese Nachricht wurde manuell erstellt. Wir bemühen uns um fehlerfreie Korrespondenz, dennoch kann es in Ausnahmefällen vorkommen, dass bei der manuellen Übertragung von Informationen in elektronische Medien die übertragenen Informationen Fehler aufweisen. Wir bitten Sie, dies zu entschuldigen. Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of koppenhoefer.com unless specifically stated. This email and any files attached are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify postmas...@koppenhoefer.com Please note that to ensure regulatory compliance and for the protection of our clients and business, we may monitor and read messages sent to and from our systems. Thank You. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
Note: I'm using on-line translation dictionaries. Please correct or clarify any non-English word misuse. I have tried to learn other languages, but find I am not adept at language skills. I know dictionaries can be misleading or wrong from experience. Years ago I ate in a Munich restaurant where the menus did not have translations and was the only place I encountered while in Germany where none of the staff spoke English. Fortunately the menu had pictures so I pointed at my main course then tried to order a soda pop. I tried three terms from my guidebook and none were understood. A couple dining at the restaurant that spoke a tiny bit of English tried to help and I ended up with tonic water. Ugh. (The main course was delicious.) I was informed later by a German associate that any of the terms would have worked in Berlin, but the guidebook had used regional terms that were a poor choice for Germany as a whole. A summary as I understand it: We currently have English labels and definitions used for tags for bakery and confectionery that have language translation mismatches, especially based on common usage of the words. English cultures are comfortable using one term for shops of any type bakery goods (bakery), but continental Europeans are not. There may be regulatory reasons in Europe for not grouping them as a whole. Some specifics: The English definitions for the tags are misleading or wrong. Defining a bakery as sells bread is highly misleading. It is more likely to be understood by common usage as a cake or pastry shop. Listing pastry as a product of a confectionery is wrong as the term means candy or chocolates shop. Pastries are bakery goods. backeri, boulangerie are linked to bakery, when a much more appropriate choice would have been bread shop. kondertorei, feinbakdere, patisserie, viennoiseries may be linked to confectionery when the most accurate choice would have been bakery, English usage, common meanings and problems with technical/translation definitions: Americans first look to bakery (in directories, legends, web searches, ...) for any type of bakery product. It appears the United Kingdom, Canada, and Australia do the same (or for bakers). Americans then may look for sub classes such as bread, cakes, pastry. Americans commonly refer to bread shops, as in I'm going to the bread store, but often call them bakeries. Americans have understanding of cake shop, pastry shop, pie shop; but often reference them by the more general I'm going to the bakeryAmericans have no commonly used term for shops that sell all types of non-bread bakery goods other than bakery. Cakes and pastries are generally thought to be different things (perhaps because one is made with batter and one with pastry (literally paste) dough), but some (nations) see pastries as a subset of cakes and other see cakes as a subset of pastries. Pastry to Americans means sweet bakery items made primarily from pastry dough. Secondary meanings can include pies, tarts and quiches, or meat pies. Items made from batters or various bread doughs are generally not considered pastries Although some of the translation dictionaries linked non-English terms for pastry to confectionery, this is an esoteric linking and should not be used. The translation definition I received for konditorei was cake shop, confectioners shop, the second of which is wrong unless konitorei commonly specialize in zuckeri and konfekt. I do not believe they do? Since the translation dictionaries lacked specifics, I'm assuming feinbackerei, konditorei and patisserie can be interpreted as selling most kinds of non-bread bakery goods. Not so sure about viennoiseries which may be pastries only. A new proposed solution considering the most appropriate English definitions and the needs of both groups. A new category shop=bread be created. backerie, boulangerie should be linked to this shop. The English definition: a shop that specializes in selling breads. See also shop=bakery. Question: would a nationality cuisine sub tag be useful enough to mention for use? The category shop=bakery be retained; konditorei, feinbackerei, patisserie should be linked to this shop. It should also be used where both bread and non-bread bakery products sales are important, and when the specific baked good sold is unknown. A sub tag cuisine=nationality could be used but is optional and should only be used if the nationality differs from that of the location. The English definition: a shop that sells bakery goods such as cakes, pastries, pies, and bread. See also shop=bread. I would prefer not to define any other type of bakery goods shop, but I'll let the continental Europeans tell me if there is a need. Understand that if shop=pastry is added it would be defined to sell pastries (and perhaps pies or tarts) and point to the wikipedia page for pastries, so would not sell cakes, cookies or other bakery goods. If you need a distinct shop for all non-bread bakery goods; tagging with
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
* Murry McEntire murry.mcent...@gmail.com [130607 20:15]: [..] A summary as I understand it: We currently have English labels and definitions used for tags for bakery and confectionery that have language translation mismatches, especially based on common usage of the words. English cultures are comfortable using one term for shops of any type bakery goods (bakery), but continental Europeans are not. There may be regulatory reasons in Europe for not grouping them as a whole. To broaden the perspective a bit: All arabic countries that I have travelled to so far have the following kinds of shop: - shops that sell bread, often made on premises, and in a few cases also cookies and very simple kinds of pastry (basically sweet bread). If signs in english are used, these shops are signed as bakery - shops that sell sweets but no cake, cookies or pastry - small restaurants that offer (sweet) pastry, to eat in or take out, but nothing else (they never offer coffee or tea, so I wouldn't call them cafe) - places that sell cakes and cookies (mostly takeout, no coffee etc.) - places that sell coffee and tea, but usually no food. If there are signs in english, they usually read cafe or coffee shop So, my conclusion here is that in the arabic world I would expect a bakery to be a place selling mostly or only bread. Wolfgang ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
This sounds like a reasonable compromise. Incidentally, I am an American and would not classify pastries and confections as the same thing, although one shop will sometimes sell both. I would tend to think of a bread shop as a shop that sells bread, and perhaps other baked goods, but does not do its own baking. Typically, these shops sell goods originating from a single industrial-scale bakery, and which have been returned by grocery stores after they did not sell, but which are still in good condition. Murry McEntire murry.mcent...@gmail.com wrote: Note: I'm using on-line translation dictionaries. Please correct or clarify any non-English word misuse. I have tried to learn other languages, but find I am not adept at language skills. I know dictionaries can be misleading or wrong from experience. Years ago I ate in a Munich restaurant where the menus did not have translations and was the only place I encountered while in Germany where none of the staff spoke English. Fortunately the menu had pictures so I pointed at my main course then tried to order a soda pop. I tried three terms from my guidebook and none were understood. A couple dining at the restaurant that spoke a tiny bit of English tried to help and I ended up with tonic water. Ugh. (The main course was delicious.) I was informed later by a German associate that any of the terms would have worked in Berlin, but the guidebook had used regional terms that were a poor choice for Germany as a whole. A summary as I understand it: We currently have English labels and definitions used for tags for bakery and confectionery that have language translation mismatches, especially based on common usage of the words. English cultures are comfortable using one term for shops of any type bakery goods (bakery), but continental Europeans are not. There may be regulatory reasons in Europe for not grouping them as a whole. Some specifics: The English definitions for the tags are misleading or wrong. Defining a bakery as sells bread is highly misleading. It is more likely to be understood by common usage as a cake or pastry shop. Listing pastry as a product of a confectionery is wrong as the term means candy or chocolates shop. Pastries are bakery goods. backeri, boulangerie are linked to bakery, when a much more appropriate choice would have been bread shop. kondertorei, feinbakdere, patisserie, viennoiseries may be linked to confectionery when the most accurate choice would have been bakery, English usage, common meanings and problems with technical/translation definitions: Americans first look to bakery (in directories, legends, web searches, ...) for any type of bakery product. It appears the United Kingdom, Canada, and Australia do the same (or for bakers). Americans then may look for sub classes such as bread, cakes, pastry. Americans commonly refer to bread shops, as in I'm going to the bread store, but often call them bakeries. Americans have understanding of cake shop, pastry shop, pie shop; but often reference them by the more general I'm going to the bakeryAmericans have no commonly used term for shops that sell all types of non-bread bakery goods other than bakery. Cakes and pastries are generally thought to be different things (perhaps because one is made with batter and one with pastry (literally paste) dough), but some (nations) see pastries as a subset of cakes and other see cakes as a subset of pastries. Pastry to Americans means sweet bakery items made primarily from pastry dough. Secondary meanings can include pies, tarts and quiches, or meat pies. Items made from batters or various bread doughs are generally not considered pastries Although some of the translation dictionaries linked non-English terms for pastry to confectionery, this is an esoteric linking and should not be used. The translation definition I received for konditorei was cake shop, confectioners shop, the second of which is wrong unless konitorei commonly specialize in zuckeri and konfekt. I do not believe they do? Since the translation dictionaries lacked specifics, I'm assuming feinbackerei, konditorei and patisserie can be interpreted as selling most kinds of non-bread bakery goods. Not so sure about viennoiseries which may be pastries only. A new proposed solution considering the most appropriate English definitions and the needs of both groups. A new category shop=bread be created. backerie, boulangerie should be linked to this shop. The English definition: a shop that specializes in selling breads. See also shop=bakery. Question: would a nationality cuisine sub tag be useful enough to mention for use? The category shop=bakery be retained; konditorei, feinbackerei, patisserie should be linked to this shop. It should also be used where both bread and non-bread bakery products sales are important, and when the specific baked good sold is unknown. A sub tag cuisine=nationality could be used but is optional and should only be used if the nationality
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
Wolfgang Zenker wolfgang@... writes: * Murry McEntire murry.mcentire@... [130607 20:15]: [..] A summary as I understand it: We currently have English labels and definitions used for tags for bakery and confectionery that have language translation mismatches, especially based on common usage of the words. ... English cultures are comfortable using one term for shops of any type bakery goods (bakery), but continental Europeans are not. There may be regulatory reasons in Europe for not grouping them as a whole. ... A new proposed solution considering the most appropriate English definitions and the needs of both groups. A new category shop=bread be created... The English definition: a shop that specializes in selling breads. The category shop=bakery be retained; ... It should be used where both bread and non-bread bakery products sales are important, and when the specific baked good sold is unknown. All arabic countries that I have travelled to so far have the following kinds of shop: - shops that sell bread, often made on premises, and in a few cases also cookies and very simple kinds of pastry (basically sweet bread). If signs in english are used, these shops are signed as bakery --shop=bread, bread=yes, pastry=yes, (craft=bread_baker?) name:en=Ishtmar Bakery - shops that sell sweets but no cake, cookies or pastry --shop=confectionary - small restaurants that offer (sweet) pastry, to eat in or take out, but nothing else --amenity=restaurant, (selling=bread?) (craft=pastry_baker?) - places that sell cakes and cookies (mostly takeout, no coffee etc.) --shop=bakery, cake=yes, cookie=yes - places that sell coffee and tea, but usually no food. If there are signs in english, they usually read cafe or coffee shop --amenity=café, name=Ishtmar Café So, my conclusion here is that in the arabic world I would expect a bakery to be a place selling mostly or only bread. Wolfgang A great contribution by Murry! If we want to have two different shop-values to separate bakeries that mostly sell bread from the other kinds of bakeries and still want to use words by their english meaning; It seems that Murrys way is the way to go! (If we want only one value, then bakery is good for both, that is consistent with the english language) So I want to point out that it really isn´t an option to use bakery only for breadselling shops, even though it might be closer to the words origin (when you had to go to the baker to get bread) it is not how it is used in the english language today (as Murry have explained). (I would myself, as would many other foreigners assume that bakery mainly was about bread, but that is not the point) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
A look at the English language business directory for Cairo Egypt shows two categories related to the discussion: Bakery Pastry Shops and Candy and Confectionery. They do not do sub categories, but allow the businesses to select keywords. Listings are few, so should not be considered a good sample. Businesses that focus on bread choose both bakery and bread as keywords. Bakery goods businesses that do not feature bread choose bakery and one or more of cake, cupcake, pastry, western dessert, muffin, and other keywords. Businesses that feature both bread and other baked goods use bakery in combination with other keywords. Businesses that sell bakery goods, candy, chocolates and ice_cream choose bakery as one of many key words. Web searches for Cairo bakeries and similar searches provide a lot more examples. Such results are similar to the business directory. A business using bakery in their web presence sells some sort of baked good, but not necessarily bread. The business directories and web presence, especially in English, are not representative of the many bazaar stalls and smaller shops. However the results above mesh with my experience on a trip to Cairo and Luxor. When speaking, a bread store was called a bakery, but the term was also used for bakeries that did not sell bread. In the most heavily tourist areas, English signs saying bakery were used for any kind of baked good. Most shops were not bread shops, but that would be expected for a tourist area. Outside the most heavily tourist areas, bread, non-bread, and combination shops are common. The shops I saw that did have English signs seemed to prefer to identify the products sold, e.g, bread, cakes, pastries, sweets to calling themselves a bakery. No idea how many of the shops I saw handled subsidized bread. I did not travel in any area where tourists would be a rarity. Extrapolating, an English speaking Egyptian would be comfortable calling shops selling any kind of baked good a bakery. They would first call a shop selling bread a bakery, but would (commonly) know what shop=bread meant. Murry ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
Hi Murry, thanks, but there's no need to apologize. I am aware that I've made some provocative statements myself. So I probably have to apologize, too. Basically I think we're on the same page: To my understanding we agree that there's a need to differentiate between the different kinds of baked goods. So the problem is how to classify and name these. But as pretty often I guess that's where trouble starts. To answer your question: A shop selling cake but not bread is called Konditorei in German. I am currently not really aware of any shop selling only cookies. I remember a place in France that sold Bagels but mainly as a take away food and that's tagged as amenity=cafe (node #2095562597). If I look at our two mails I see a clear contradiction: To me the primary product of a bakery is bread while for you it's mainly the other non-bread kinds. So I don't see any easy resolution for that. We both have good arguments for our own point of view and both have objections against the other. Both of us see problems of usability for users with the other schema as it might not match expectations. I think that's what's called a tie... A solution might be to do some localization of the tagging. This is probably not a great idea but it has been done before, e.g. for interpretation of highways or administrative boundaries. This would allow the different cultures to tag according to their expectations. Problems would arise for users in the other culture or any global acitivity but I would expect these are the less-frequent applications. But overall I see this only as a kind of workaround. But basically that's how most of OSM works for me: Just let people map as they understand things and don't try to direct things too heavily. A completely unrelated example might be ornithology: In English there's a difference between swallows and martins while in German both are considered Schwalben. The same applies for dove and pigeon where we have only Taube. The solution in that filed is the use of a completely separate classification in Latin. But this also has the effect that this classification is more or less impractical for daily life and limited to the specialists. That's not the way I would like OSM developing in future. Finally I would agree that anybody else is happily welcome to join the discussion! Michael 2013/6/5 Murry McEntire murry.mcent...@gmail.com First an apology to Michael for what follows. I know you are allowing for change by addition of more shop=* tags, but the tailored statement makes me want to get on my soapbox. I know you are not arguing for the status quo. I would argue that tagging should also be tailored towards being useful for and not antagonizing to the local users and taggers of the general regions on the map. I would like for OSM to become a success in the U.S., or at least considered a viable alternative to the other major map systems; but if the average American finds it misleading, or can not find what they are looking for, they will not use it. In OSM's current state, I can not recommend it to non-technical family, friends, or acquaintances because it is too often wrong, or does not contain sufficient information for them to find what they seek. On the other hand, OSM should not be balkanized. So, I would never think of denying a local Mexican bakery the tag of shop=bakery, or shop=bakery; bakery_good=bread; or shop=bread (depending on what implementation is used) even though they do not carry bread as I usually think of it or (I believe) the average European understands it. An aside, I'm a fan of eating wheat tortillas like I would loaf bread, but unfortunately have to pass on the corn ones because of an allergy. It would be nice if the OSM tagging system were implemented such that what is of importance in one area, encourages taggers in another area, where they may have less importance, to use them in a similar way as opposed to using them in contrary ways or not tagging because such tags have a different meaning. If the latter is happening frequently, it is likely a sign of poor design and choice of tags, or where language differences exist, a poor matching of word translations. Importance and usefulness for one group is not a guide to good design if it is a poor implementation for (many) others. I would also think from the European viewpoint, or from anyone valuing good bread, having a map when visiting the U.S. that allows them to directly find that shop that specializes in artisan bread instead of having less than one chance in 20 would be a good thing. But if we keep the status quo, they will find most U.S. bakeries are cake shops or cookie shops or pastry shops or some combination that excludes bread. It is a given under the status quo, that mappers in the U.S. (hopefully only in U.S. territory) will tag bread, cake, cookie, pastry, pie, and other bakery goods shops shop=bakery. That U.S. users will feel frustrated because they
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
Given the split in opinions, I started thinking harder on an American usages page and wondered what other countries might use it. Now I'm wondering who wrote the features pages descriptions and got them wrong. I speculate that it was not an English-speaking country native. Using the Toronto Canada business directories as a source and visiting many business and reviews webpages: Under the Bakeries listings - shops that carry cakes, cookies, or pastries outnumber the shops that carry bread, cakes, cookies, and pastries. Very few shops specialize in bread only. Subcategory listings Pastry Shops, Cookies. Canadians seem comfortable putting cakes in the Pastry category but not cookies. Many webpages did distinguish between cakes and pastries. It was very clear that pastries and confections are considered different things. Businesses with Bakery in the name followed the same split as the business listings - places that sold bread only were a small minority. Using the Sydney Australia business pages and visiting many business and reviews webpages: The listing is typically Bakers (not Bakeries). Baker shops with cake and pastries outnumber those with bread, cake and pastries, which outnumber those selling bread alone. Subcategory listings Cake and Pastry Shops, Pizzas, Pies, Pasties and Sausage Rolls. The directories also allowed businesses to advertise product types. Pastry and cakes are distinct. Meat pies are very popular. Banana bread is popular enough to earn a products listing. Confections and pastries are different things. Businesses that used Bakery in the name were more likely not to sell bread, and those selling only bread were a small minority. Using the United Kingdom and London business directories and a number of business and reviews webpages. The listing in some is Retail Bakers, in others it is Bakery.. Baker shops featuring cakes, baker shops featuring sandwiches, and baker shops featuring bread and other products far outnumber the bread only shops. Subcategory listings Birthday Cakes, Wedding Cakes, Cupcakes, Sandwiches, Christening Cakes Webpages took more work as it was less common for a listed business to have its own webpage than in the previous countries or the U.S. though reviews of a business were common. Bakery is very commonly used in business names, but is a poor indicator of where to buy bread. They are more likely to be a cake or sandwich shop. (Sweet) Pastries are often a subcategory of cakes. When not a subcategory of cakes, they most often have meat in them. Confections and (sweet) pastries are different things. The term favours sometimes included confections and was used in its place It was interesting I did not encounter the subcategory listing Bread. I speculate it may be missing because the bread-only specializing bakeries are so few. Bread was sometimes used in the names of bread specializing bakeries in the other countries, but not nearly as much as in the U.S. So, based on the way retail bakeries in the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, and the United States categorize themselves, advertise themselves, name themselves and the way locals review and search for them; the OSM features webpage should be changed in two ways: 1) Pastries should definitely not be listed as a product of shop=confectionery. 2) A more correct definition for shop=bakery is selling cakes, pastries, pies and bread -- or tongue in cheek: selling cakes, pastries, pies and sometimes bread, but rarely bread alone Since we currently have the state where the shop=bakery and shop=confectionery descriptions are ill suited for many of the English Speaking countries and their resident taggers and users I would advocate for changes in the description of shop=confectionery and shop=bakery as above and the introduction of subcategories of bakery. Since shop=bakery is clearly a better choice for a cake shop or pastry shop or one that sells many bakery product types, I wonder if Bakery_good:bread=yes or bread=yes added to shop=bakery would be less disruptive than shop=bread. I would expect taggers from the the mentioned countries to quickly use shop=bread for their local bread bakeries and change any previously entered shop=bakery for such shops. I know I would.Then the success of a European visiting these countries in finding artisan bread by visiting a shop=bakery icon becomes zero; as opposed to a possible, but small, chance of success now or if bread=yes is brought into use. Question: I've seen subtags of style bread=yes and bakery_good:bread=yes, but have found no guidance on which is preferred when. Is there any guidance or is it just the preference of the one proposing it? Murry ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
Michael Krämer ohrosm@... writes: ..snip.. Basically I think we're on the same page: To my understanding we agree that there's a need to differentiate between the different kinds of baked goods. So the problem is how to classify and name these. But as pretty often I guess that's where trouble starts. ..snip.. Murry McEntire murry.mcentire@... writes: ..snip.. 1) Pastries should definitely not be listed as a product of shop=confectionery.2) A more correct definition for shop=bakery is selling cakes, pastries, pies and bread -- or tongue in cheek: selling cakes, pastries, pies and sometimes bread, but rarely bread alone ..snip.. Murry It looks too me that both american Murry and german Michael have found that a breadselling shop is different from a pastry-selling shop. So why not do as the Original Poster, Martin, wrote and distinguish these two. (The discussed problem seem to be that bread-shop is bäckerei in german and that pastry-shop is bakery in english, similar name for different things) We might even need to go so far to consider to abandon shop=bakery and use shop=bread and shop=pastry instead. p.s. Shop=bakery and shop=butcher where the first shop-values, when the shop-key broke out from amenity-key. These two really are old entities that have been with us in our culture for a long time and kind of demands to be tagged. d.s. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
Hi Murry, being yet another German I'm afraid I still don't buy into the proposal. I guess this has a lot to do with both cultural and language differences. Also some background to start with. For many people in at least continental Europe bread is a basic food and a key component of the daily diet. For example for me bread is the key ingredient for two meals of the day. For this reason bread is something pretty relevant in daily life and it's not only about having some kind of bread but also the type and freshness of bread. Recently I've been travelling in France. Every morning one of the first things has been to get some fresh bread. For this I used OSM and looked for the next artisan bakery. A supermarket would also sell bread but that would have been second choice only. There were also many shops selling various treats but no the basic bread we were looking for. So to me this basic distinction is really important. From my point of view another aspect is the occurence of bakeries. Both in Germany and in France I expect to find a bakery more or less in every village of reasonable size. This is not always a place where bread is baked on the premises but at least in the morning there's a choice of various types of bread etc. My personal experience from travelling in the US, the UK and Canada is rather different. To get bread there I would rather go to a supermarket. To me a bakery in these countries is less of a everyday shop but more special. To me this is also reflected by the number of bakeries you've given for Colorado. Here a more or less randomly picked query in Strasbourg, France: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/iv. This gives around 50 bakeries in an area of about 30 square kilometers. I would claim from this that the relevance of bakeries is significantly different between e.g. the US and Germany. As a conclusion I would argue that the tagging should be mainly tailored towards the regions where bakeries are acutally found more often. Of course the tagging must be applicable globally. But I am still in favour if having the distiction between bakery, pastry and confectionery on the top-level with shop=... Michael ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
I've been doing some research, perhaps towards producing a formal proposal page, of how bakery and confectionery should be handled for the United States (and perhaps some of the other English speaking countries - I hope those from Britain, Canada, Australia, etc. would identify their country and comment what works for them). I've consulted existing OSM entries, business directories, government sources, web sources, dictionaries, thesauruses, and talked with people and used personal experience. The following is written with an American view (or at least a Western American view), so when I use most people, most, all, none, or like terms please interpret it as U.S.-centric. The U.S. is the land of the supermarket. The majority of the people here have not set foot in a shop devoted to the retail sale of baked goods in the last year. Take away the national commercial bakery outlet stores (often thought of as day-old stores) and the number plummets further. As to meaning, the most common interpretation of a bakery shop is a place that sells cakes, pies, and/or pastries. Step into a shop with Bakery in the name, other than a national bakery outlet or one with Cafe and Bakery as part of the name, expecting to buy a loaf of white, brown, french, or other common yeast bread and you will be disappointed over 90% of the time. Bread is not typically thought of unless the shop name has the word Bread in it. In Colorado Springs, a city and urban area of half a million, I know of two shops which specialize in everyday loaf bread. There may be more that don't advertise in business directories. print media, or have a web presence; (ideally, OSM could become the go-to source for them). To buy everyday bread, one goes to the bread aisle of the supermarket or other general food store, or to the bakery department of such stores. The supermarkets even carry or make artisan lines of bread and sometimes feature fresh hot french bread at specific times during the day. For custom breads, one might go to a combination cafe and bakery or a delicatessen. I know California has artisan bread shops but they have not generally reached Colorado. There are artisan bakers, but they use other retail outlets to market their product. For other types of bakery goods, supermarkets are the first choice, but bakery shop is an option for the average shopper. Nationality is often associated with a bakery, Danish, Dutch, French, German, and Mexican were encountered when Ii looked at Colorado bakeries.and I'm sure many other nationalities are used with bakeries in the state of Colorado and the U.S. The only nationality association that usually featured (but not always) loaf yeast breads was French. The others did not carry it at all or it was a very minor display. Mexican bakeries typically feature tortillas (sometimes referred to in the Western U.S. as the national bread of Mexico) and may not carry loaf bread at all. Cafes with a retail bakery counter are very common, where the counter does substantial business but not enough to sustain a standalone bakery shop or where the synergy allows both to do better than as stand-alones. The bakery products are often but not always a feature of the cafe menu. I would tend to map these as two nodes within the space, amenity=cafe and shop=bakery. Catering businesses also often feature bakery counters, again double nodes seem appropriate. I would not use a shop=bakery node where a bakery counter is incidental, or very minor to the business. As for confectionery shops, most people have to think a moment as what they are, then none associate pastries with them. They think of them as places for candy or chocolates. A very few shops sell both candies and pastries, but do not call the pastries confections Finding a good name for something is often 90% of the battle of doing a data category right, and terminology is definitely a problem. The word for eat-everyday, baked unsweetened yeast dough loaf is bread. Smaller than a loaf bread is most typically called a roll. But, bread also has a general meaning that includes egg bread, sweetened bread, holiday bread, quick bread, etc. Baked goods is interpreted by some to include pizzas, calzones, and other products, but these same people would not go to a bakery for these products. Bakery goods would not be interpreted by most to include pizzas and the like, but is not commonly used. There is not a good term for the group of sweetened bread, and non-bread/non-roll bakery products. To most people, pastries does not include cakes, cookies, and some other non-bread baked dough. Some separate out pies and tarts from pastries, but most would not be mislead by including them as pastries. So the solution should not be bread and pastries; but bread, pastries, and other categories. Notes: Even everyday bread often uses a small amount of some sweetener, here I use non-sweetened to mean not characterized by a noticeably sweet or dessert like taste. I would include within
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
Le 03/06/2013 04:59, Brad Neuhauser a écrit : To me, wikipedia captures well the English usage of bakery: A *bakery* (or *baker's shop*) is an establishment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment which produces and sells flour http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flour-based food baked http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baking in an oven http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oven such as bread http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread, cakes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cake, pastries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastries, and pies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakery There are not the distinct types as there seem to be in German. What about adding an optional bread=yes/no, pastry=yes/no etc to shop=bakery? That allows the differentiation in German without distorting the common meaning of the English word. Brad +1 shop=bakery (the following tag will have a default value to yes) bread=yes/no pastry=yes/no viennoiseries=yes/no (or other tag) sandwiches=yes/no fast-food=yes/no [1] The French legislation distinguishes between a bakery (where bread must be baked in its oven) and dépôt de pain (bread dump) without oven. So we can had the tag baking=no for those shop without oven. [1] http://www.briochedoree.fr/produits/ -- FrViPofm ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
On 03/giu/2013, at 04:18, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: So would this new tag be for these places as well, or should we designate them shop=cupcake or shop=cinnamon_buns, etc? I'm certainly in favor or supporting tags that make local sense, but where we can generalize a solution, I think we should, and before I know if this is a generalized solution, I feel like I need to know how these examples would be handled Don't know these shops, but shop=cinnamon_buns seems too specific to me (better use a subtag), while shop=cookies sounds reasonable if you don't want to put them into one of the existing categories. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
On 03/giu/2013, at 08:55, Vincent Pottier vpott...@gmail.com wrote: So we can had the tag baking=no for those shop without oven. there is a tag oven in use with values like wood_fired to indicate the type of oven, e.g. for a pizzeria, you could use oven=no for the pain depots. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
Better be explicit and use
oven=yes for all 'warme bakkers' where the bread is baked on the spot.
and
oven=no if the bread is transported in from somewhere else.
And here in Belgium we also distinguish bakery/pastry. Usually bakers do
both. Confectionery is something totally different. We also have shops
specialised in chocolate confectionery ('pralines' in French/Dutch)
Jo
2013/6/3 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
On 03/giu/2013, at 08:55, Vincent Pottier vpott...@gmail.com wrote:
So we can had the tag baking=no for those shop without oven.
there is a tag oven in use with values like wood_fired to indicate the
type of oven, e.g. for a pizzeria, you could use oven=no for the pain
depots.
cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
2013/6/3 Jo winfi...@gmail.com
Better be explicit and use
+1
oven=yes for all 'warme bakkers' where the bread is baked on the spot.
oven=no if the bread is transported in from somewhere else.
currently the oven tag is used also to convey further detail
(oven=wood_fired) this could be extended to tag also oven=electrical
instead of a simple yes (if known). Wood_fired ovens are a typical
ingredient for higher quality pizza but also bread.
And here in Belgium we also distinguish bakery/pastry. Usually bakers do
both. Confectionery is something totally different. We also have shops
specialised in chocolate confectionery ('pralines' in French/Dutch)
yes, the same here in Italy. Probably in all or most European countries
this is a common distinction and yes, bakeries often offer also pastry (but
usually the less complicated ones). Confectionery is more rare here, but it
does exist and is quite different from pastry producing businesses
(it:pasticceria) as the confectionery products don't contain flour.
Another edge case might be it:gelateria, which is ice cream makers
(artisanal producers, ice cream made in the shop), which often also offer
pastry containing ice_cream fillings, semi-freddo (half-frozen), etc.
cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
Hi.
I'm curious wether the existence/usage of an oven is the best criterium
for this issue.
At least in Germany a lot of bakeries have an oven, but use it only to
bake prepared raw rolls/buns/..., selling them fresh, sometimes still
warm (if you're there at the right time at least) while the other bread
is transported from somewhere else.
So at least that would lead to a second tag: preparing=yes or something
like that.
regards
Peter
Am 03.06.2013 10:45, schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
2013/6/3 Jo winfi...@gmail.com
Better be explicit and use
+1
oven=yes for all 'warme bakkers' where the bread is baked on the spot.
oven=no if the bread is transported in from somewhere else.
currently the oven tag is used also to convey further detail
(oven=wood_fired) this could be extended to tag also oven=electrical
instead of a simple yes (if known). Wood_fired ovens are a typical
ingredient for higher quality pizza but also bread.
And here in Belgium we also distinguish bakery/pastry. Usually bakers do
both. Confectionery is something totally different. We also have shops
specialised in chocolate confectionery ('pralines' in French/Dutch)
yes, the same here in Italy. Probably in all or most European countries
this is a common distinction and yes, bakeries often offer also pastry (but
usually the less complicated ones). Confectionery is more rare here, but it
does exist and is quite different from pastry producing businesses
(it:pasticceria) as the confectionery products don't contain flour.
Another edge case might be it:gelateria, which is ice cream makers
(artisanal producers, ice cream made in the shop), which often also offer
pastry containing ice_cream fillings, semi-freddo (half-frozen), etc.
cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
Peter Wendorff wendorff@... writes: Hi. I'm curious wether the existence/usage of an oven is the best criterium for this issue. At least in Germany a lot of bakeries have an oven, but use it only to bake prepared raw rolls/buns/..., selling them fresh, sometimes still warm (if you're there at the right time at least) while the other bread is transported from somewhere else. So at least that would lead to a second tag: preparing=yes or something like that. regards Peter Am 03.06.2013 10:45, schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer: 2013/6/3 Jo winfixit@... oven=yes for all 'warme bakkers' where the bread is baked on the spot. oven=no if the bread is transported in from somewhere else. currently the oven tag is used also to convey further detail (oven=wood_fired) this could be extended to tag also oven=electrical instead of a simple yes (if known). Wood_fired ovens are a typical ingredient for higher quality pizza but also bread. May I suggest that we might also use the relatively new key craft=* (I have found it mostly useful for bookbinder and blacksmith and such but could be worth a try) This is supposed to be used to point out that it is an artisan in the shop making the things you buy. So in France one could add craft=baker to a boulangeri while just having shop=bakery on the depots. I can also see that oven=stone_oven and other variants could find their interested mappers here in Sweden, where such bread has become popular. By the way, we also have a lot of non-bakeries that make what we call bake-off (doing the last part of the baking in an electric oven in the store, not just heating them up) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
On 03.06.2013 20:04, Johan Jönsson wrote: Peter Wendorff wendorff@... writes: Hi. I'm curious wether the existence/usage of an oven is the best criterium for this issue. At least in Germany a lot of bakeries have an oven, but use it only to bake prepared raw rolls/buns/..., selling them fresh, sometimes still warm (if you're there at the right time at least) while the other bread is transported from somewhere else. So at least that would lead to a second tag: preparing=yes or something like that. regards Peter Am 03.06.2013 10:45, schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer: 2013/6/3 Jo winfixit@... oven=yes for all 'warme bakkers' where the bread is baked on the spot. oven=no if the bread is transported in from somewhere else. currently the oven tag is used also to convey further detail (oven=wood_fired) this could be extended to tag also oven=electrical instead of a simple yes (if known). Wood_fired ovens are a typical ingredient for higher quality pizza but also bread. May I suggest that we might also use the relatively new key craft=* (I have found it mostly useful for bookbinder and blacksmith and such but could be worth a try) This is supposed to be used to point out that it is an artisan in the shop making the things you buy. So in France one could add craft=baker to a boulangeri while just having shop=bakery on the depots. +1 So we already have a tag to show the differences. I can also see that oven=stone_oven and other variants could find their interested mappers here in Sweden, where such bread has become popular. By the way, we also have a lot of non-bakeries that make what we call bake-off (doing the last part of the baking in an electric oven in the store, not just heating them up) Maybe we can find a tag for this, too. For me the more important point is if was baked all in one or if it is bake-off and not where the oven is located. cu fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] pastry and confectionery
I'd like to advertise the tag shop=pastry for places that sell (and usually produce) sweet bakery products pastry, cakes, biscuits, strudel etc. opposed to what usually is referred to as confectionery (candies, sweets). IMHO these are two quite distinct places and I don't think its a good idea to mix them up like the page of shop=confectionery currently suggests to do: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dconfectionery (a shop selling sweets and pastry). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] pastry and confectionery
Umm, what's wrong with shop=bakery? On Sunday, June 2, 2013, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: I'd like to advertise the tag shop=pastry for places that sell (and usually produce) sweet bakery products pastry, cakes, biscuits, strudel etc. opposed to what usually is referred to as confectionery (candies, sweets). IMHO these are two quite distinct places and I don't think its a good idea to mix them up like the page of shop=confectionery currently suggests to do: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dconfectionery (a shop selling sweets and pastry). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
Le 02/06/2013 14:31, Brad Neuhauser a écrit : Umm, what's wrong with shop=bakery? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Shop Selling bread In France you can usualy find pastries in a bakery, at least viennoiseries [1], but you never find bread in a pastry. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viennoiserie -- FrViPofm ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
PMJI, Here (in Vienna ;) the distinciton is Bäckerei (= bakery, who also sell sweets like those Viennoiseries) vs Konditorei (= pâtisserie) (those are different crafts). Don't know what the correct English translation is for the latter, it seems to be confectionery. N.B. most of the Konditoreien are also Kaffeesieder, what makes them an amenity=cafe. Different from a Konditorei (and dying out) is a Confiserie (no cakes, just sweets). And of course there also is a thing called drop shop (www.dropshop.at) (candies only). Just to give some Ideas: Bäckerei: http://www.felberbrot.at/ Konditorei: http://www.demel.at/en/index_en_flash.htm http://www.suessesvomfeinsten.eu/ Confiserie: http://www.heindl.co.at/ http://www.xocolat.at/cms/index.php /al ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
Andreas Labres list@... writes: Here (in Vienna ;) the distinciton is Bäckerei (= bakery, who also sell sweets like those Viennoiseries) vs Konditorei (= pâtisserie) (those are different crafts). Don't know what the correct English translation is for the latter, it seems to be confectionery. N.B. most of the Konditoreien are also Kaffeesieder, what makes them an amenity=cafe. Different from a Konditorei (and dying out) is a Confiserie (no cakes, just sweets). And of course there also is a thing called drop shop (www.dropshop.at) (candies only). Just by comparing words I find it plausible to believe that: * Bäckerei is related to bakery * pâtisserie is related to pastry * Confiserie is related to confectionary I think your examples are great. This is a gliding scale from bread via pies and cakes to chocolate and candy. p.s. I Sweden, we used to have bageri (=bäckerei/bakery) exactly as you describe. We also had more exclusive konditori (=konditorei exactly as you describe many of them also served coffe). d.s. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
I do see bakery (baked goods) and confectionery (candy, chocolates) and the shops that sell them as very different so would never use the later for any of the former. If I go to a telephone business book (yellow pages) or a book section in a book store, I expect bakery and baking books to cover breads, cakes, pastries, etc. Similarly if I use the business directory or bookstore section for confectionery, I expect a chocolate or candy store or books on chocolate or candy making. Here (Western US), i usually do not first think of a bakery shop for bread, but instead as one selling cakes, cookies, pastries, cupcakes, pies or a combination thereof and maybe breads. We tend to call shops where mainly bread is sold, bread stores; but I would still look under bakery in the business directory for one. Here confectionery shops are more likely to sell something like nuts or dried fruit with chocolates and/or candy than they are to sell pastries. The few that do mix candy and pastries are also likely to offer cakes, cupcakes, or cookies. Rather than push for shop=pastry it makes more sense to change the text on the wiki to expand what bakery stands for (and remove pastries from the description of the confectionery). If you want more detail then perhaps the proposal should be: shop=bakery, cuisine=* where cuisine could be bread, cakes, wedding cakes, cupcakes, cookies, pastries, pies, or a list if one type is not predominant at the shop. This would nicely parallel amenity=cafe; cuisine=cake for places where you consume the product within the business (cafe) rather than take it from the business (shop). I suppose the debate then could become amenity=fast_food; cuisine=cookie versus shop=bakery; cuisine=cookie for the cookie counters in the shopping malls. :-) Murry ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
2013/6/2 Murry McEntire murry.mcent...@gmail.com I do see bakery (baked goods) and confectionery (candy, chocolates) and the shops that sell them as very different so would never use the later for any of the former. If I go to a telephone business book (yellow pages) or a book section in a book store, I expect bakery and baking books to cover breads, cakes, pastries, etc. I do agree that there are probably big cultural differences in this area and that in some parts of the world these would all be considered bakeries, but around here and also in Germany like in Austria pastry shops (pâtisserie) won't sell you bread (as long as they aren't both, a Bäckerei and a Konditorei). I would prefer to have a distinct shop tag and not rely on a second tag like cuisine. Rather than push for shop=pastry it makes more sense to change the text on the wiki to expand what bakery My guess is that this won't be agreeable, and I'm also opposing it, right now the wiki says a Konditorei/pâtisserie should be tagged as confectionery, if we moved this now to bakery it would be an awful mess ;-) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
Murry McEntire murry.mcentire@... writes: I do see bakery (baked goods) and confectionery (candy, chocolates) and the shops that sell them as very different so would never use the later for any of the former. snip Here (Western US), i usually do not first think of a bakery shop for bread, but instead as one selling cakes, cookies, pastries, cupcakes, pies or a combination thereof and maybe breads. We tend to call shops where mainly bread is sold, bread stores; but I would still look under bakery in the business directory for one. Here confectionery shops are more likely to sell something like nuts or dried fruit with chocolates and/or candy than they are to sell pastries. The few that do mix candy and pastries are also likely to offer cakes, cupcakes, or cookies. Rather than push for shop=pastry it makes more sense to change the text on the wiki to expand what bakery stands for (and remove pastries from the description of the confectionery). I agree with you, for me do the value bakery well mean more than just bread. I am myself not comfortable with the word confectionary, but if it is a usual english word I guess that could be used for everything selling candy and all kinds of sweet things. If I only had bakery and confectionary to choose from. I would put pastry shops (and viennoiseries/konditorei/pâtisserie) as bakeries. Chocolatiers, fudge boilers, nougat/marcipan-producers and makers of turkish delights I would put as confectionary. So let us expand the meaning of shop=bakery and put the pastry-part of confectionaries as an (could also have..) p.s. and if there is interest I guess one then could proceed and distinguish pastry shops as bread-less bakeries. d.s. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
| On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 11:45 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: | | I do agree that there are probably big cultural differences in this area and that in some parts of the world | | these would all be considered bakeries, but around here and also in Germany like in Austria pastry shops | (pâtisserie) won't sell you bread (as long as they aren't both, a Bäckerei and a Konditorei). I would | prefer to have a distinct shop tag and not rely on a second tag like cuisine. Perhaps there is also a misunderstanding of language, where the terms in other languages are being connected to the similar but wrong English word. I'll point to wikipedia, which is often used as an authority by OSM, where confectionery includes candy (sweets), chocolates, and ice cream but does not include baked goods: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confectionery whereas pastries are pies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pie, tarts, quicheshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiche, croissants, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croissant and pasties, that is generally but not always sweet baked goods,: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastry The wikipedia entries align very well with what I think of when I hear the terms. There is a general meaning of the word confection that would include all desserts, frivolous writings, and some decorative clothing, but I would never call a pastry shop a confectionery as the common audience would never understand (at least I believe in most the US) . As far as regional or American versus British English, call a garbage can a waste basket (waste basket generally means a small indoor container next to the desk in the US) and I can make the connection, but a pastry is only very rarely found at a confectionery here and when it is, they advertise it as a pastry not a confection. As an aside, here the word confectionery would never be commonly used in casual conversation for any shop but is understood to mean a chocolate or candy store when encountered. So for the solution and assuming we wish to distinguish types, what do we tag a shop that sells: only cakes? only cupcakes? only wedding cakes? only cookies (British biscuit I believe)? only pies? only turnovers, cream puffs, strudels, danishes, tarts, coffee cakes, or sweet rolls? (what I most closely connect to the word pastries) Shops that specialize these ways are very common in the US and most people here would start with bakery in a directory (or legend) as a place to find them. It seems a bigger mess if your audience avoids your product because they consider it misleading when they have used it. I view confectionery as unsuitable for all of these, and pastry mostly suitable for only the last. I suppose separate terms for each type of shop or bakery with sub tags would work for me. Also interesting would be quick bread and sweet yeast bread shops. Banana bread and stollen are more likely to be found in a bakery that sells pastries than one that sells (regular?) bread here. My guess is that this won't be agreeable, and I'm also opposing it, right now the wiki says a Konditorei/pâtisserie should be tagged as confectionery, if we moved this now to bakery it would be an awful mess ;-) cheers, Martin The OSM wiki (and database) can be wrong and I assume should be fixed (perhaps over time or by a bot) even if it causes messes. Of course, the group decides if this is something that needs correction.. but if I visit Germany or Austria with my OSM app in English and get a hankering for strudel, I'll have to ask someone on the street and stop using my OSM app (perhaps altogether) because I never thought to try a candy store. :-) Murry ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: any of the former. If I go to a telephone business book (yellow pages) or a book section in a book store, I expect bakery and baking books to cover breads, cakes, pastries, etc. To further complicate matters, in the US, many stores have opened up which only sell a single type of pastry. For example the chain Crumbs only sells cupcakes[1]. There are many such cupcake chains, or places that only sell cookies[2], or Cinnabon, which only sells Cinnamon buns. So would this new tag be for these places as well, or should we designate them shop=cupcake or shop=cinnamon_buns, etc? I'm certainly in favor or supporting tags that make local sense, but where we can generalize a solution, I think we should, and before I know if this is a generalized solution, I feel like I need to know how these examples would be handled. - Serge [1] They've recently started selling cakes too. [2] http://www.insomniacookies.com/ or a large chain like http://www.greatamericancookies.com/ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
On 02.06.13 19:11, Murry McEntire wrote: I do see bakery (baked goods) and confectionery (candy, chocolates) You have to differentiate baked goods between bread and viennoiseries (=Bäckerei) vs cakes/desserts (=Feinbäckerei, =pâtisserie). Both are (different) craftsmanships. And you have to differentiate those from a store that sells sweets. Of course things often mix up, then you have to decide what prevails. /al ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] pastry and confectionery
To me, wikipedia captures well the English usage of bakery: A *bakery* (or *baker's shop*) is an establishmenthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment which produces and sells flour http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flour-based food baked http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baking in an ovenhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oven such as bread http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread, cakeshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cake , pastries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastries, and pieshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pies . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakery There are not the distinct types as there seem to be in German. What about adding an optional bread=yes/no, pastry=yes/no etc to shop=bakery? That allows the differentiation in German without distorting the common meaning of the English word. Brad On Sunday, June 2, 2013, Andreas Labres wrote: On 02.06.13 19:11, Murry McEntire wrote: I do see bakery (baked goods) and confectionery (candy, chocolates) You have to differentiate baked goods between bread and viennoiseries (=Bäckerei) vs cakes/desserts (=Feinbäckerei, =pâtisserie). Both are (different) craftsmanships. And you have to differentiate those from a store that sells sweets. Of course things often mix up, then you have to decide what prevails. /al ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org javascript:; http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
