Re: [OSM-talk] Lithuanian revert

[Peter Miller]

On 19 Mar 2009, at 03:07, OSM Foundation Admin wrote:


-

The Data Working Group (formerly called the Vandalism Working Group)  
has been investigating a possible data copyright infringement in  
Lithuania. As a result of this investigation it has been decided by  
the group to block a number of accounts and to delete data relating  
to these accounts. The original allegation was raised on the talk  
mailing list http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2008-August/001077.html 
 which resulted in some initial communication with the parties  
concerned. Specifically the user Pranas was not able to provide an  
acceptable response with respect to the origin of the data entered  
into OpenStreetMap and this persons account was temporarily  
suspended for further investigation. At the same time we believe  
that this user and or other users in the area registered multiple  
new OpenStreetMap usernames over a short period of a few hours, this  
further raised concerns.


The process, which is now complete, has been to shut all of these  
accounts and remove all the data belonging to them, this will result  
in the rollback of some data and the loss of some data due to later  
edits, this is unavoidable but regrettable.


Can I thank the foundation team for rising to this difficult and  
important task of protecting the value of our collective work by  
following up a potential copyright infringement. It is a key essential  
role for the foundation but one that must be very time consuming in  
practice.




Regards,


Peter




___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Alternatives to wikipedia?

[Peter Miller]

On 18 Mar 2009, at 21:23, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

>
> Peter - are you really sure about geograph? AIUI only the photos are
> CC-BY-SA, the geolocation is OS-derived. Please check.

Barry pointed me at this post from 2006 when they nailed the situation  
down:
http://blog.dixo.net/2006/10/23/geograph-creative-commons-and-ordnance-survey-revisited/

I suggest that we discourage people from developing tools to  
automatically add features to OSM on mass derived from Geograph but  
that other than that it seems to be fair game and it is much clearer  
than normal in that the OS as sponsors of the project were forced to  
either accept the position or withdraw and kill the project so there  
was no way for the lawyers to avoid giving a clear answer.


Regards,


Peter


>
>
> Sorry for crap formatting, moving house so on mobile.
>
> Richard
>
>
> Peter Miller-7 wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 18 Mar 2009, at 17:11, Lester Caine wrote:
>>
>>> Tim 'avatar' Bartel wrote:
>
>
> If we're going to cooperate with Wikipedia, then they need to
> cooperate with us by not allowing any dangling links.

 There are several reasons why this isn't possible, but the biggest
 one
 is the following: Wikipedia isn't controlled by the Wikimedia
 Foundation but by the community. With whom do you like to make an
 arrangement? It's pretty hard to make an arrangement with a  
 community
 consisting out of constantly changing people.
>>>
>>> That is probably the main reason who I would prefer to find an
>>> alternative 'location' to direct links to. And some useful  
>>> suggestions
>>> have already been made.
>>>
>>> While I CAN appreciate the idea of our own wiki. That would  
>>> require a
>>> lot more hardware. Viovio has several terabytes of images already,
>>> and I
>>> suspect wikitravel.org can probably top that. So sharing the load
>>> would
>>> sound a lot more sensible?
>>
>> As I see it there are a number of different sorts of 'associated'  
>> data
>> for OSM that needs a reliable and welcoming home somewhere:
>>
>> 1) Photos - these need to have locations and a direction or
>> alternatively two positions, one for the camera and one for the
>> subject of the photo. In addition to that it is useful to know when  
>> it
>> was taken and any special attributes, was it taken when it was
>> snowing, was it raining, is it a picture of something pretty or of a
>> defect or of a signpost or what. All of this information would allow
>> applications to decide which ones to use. A journey planner would  
>> show
>> pictures of the pretty things on the route but another application
>> might want to show defects to the local council or show illegal
>> parking to the police. So... there is a whole load of stuff to do  
>> with
>> photos , some pretty pictures of scenery can go in WikiTravel and
>> Viovio etc, but some of the other stuff wouldn't be appreciated there
>> and we might need to provide a home.
>>
>> 2) Articles - background information for a street, when it was
>> constructed, why, where its name came from and possibly plans for its
>> future. Hard to see who else would give this house-room.
>>
>> 3) Subjective information about ways - muddy in winter, poor  
>> lighting,
>> too narrow for a double buggy, very crowded on market days etc.
>>
>> I would like us to think about all this stuff. We need to decide  
>> which
>> bit below in Wikipedia (certainly the right place for articles about
>> towns), for Viovio (pretty pictures?), and which nerdy details about
>> traffic, pot poles, traffic signs and bus stop poles and origins of
>> street names belong in OSM and no-where else.
>>
>> Finally, lets not be frightened about the cost of another box and the
>> hosting because terrabytes and gigabytes are really cheap these days.
>> We have just bought a box with 7 Terrabytes of disk storage and it
>> cost <£100 per terrabyte. We are also about to import all 1,000,000  
>> of
>> photos of geographic features in the UK  from Geograph (all CCBYSA)  
>> to
>> see how it copes.
>>
>> Can I suggest that if we are serious about this that we get a wiki
>> page together with the brief for the project and see what it looks
>> like as we work on it. Does this project have a name and are in vague
>> agreement about the scope and the need?
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Lester Caine - G8HFL
>>> -
>>> Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
>>> L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
>>> EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
>>> Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
>>> Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php
>>>
>>> ___
>>> talk mailing list
>>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>>
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tal

Re: [OSM-talk] Wikipedia & canvec/geobase import

[Peter Miller]

On 19 Mar 2009, at 06:11, Sam Vekemans wrote:

> Hi all,
> i am wondering what you all think about me adding wikipedia links to
> the different map features?
> Ie. esker, snowshed...
> Or i could add a link to EVERY map feature, including the ones that  
> are obvious?
>
> Another alternative is to add a "description:*" or "definition=*"
> (spelled correctly)
>
> what about having a pop-up bubble on features, where the default shows
> the osm wiki page discribing the feature.
> (ie, if your hovering over an unnamed school, the osm article for
> 'school' would be shown. If it was labled, the official school website
> would be shown?
> On the OSM article, there IS (or should be) a wikipedia link.
>
> Then if it is a place or attraction, the default could be wikitravel?
>
> Or perhaps i dont need to add tags as the (to be created software)
> would be able to spot the basic tags & use them?

Sounds good and possibly something like the place template template  
should be used where the routing of the different features and tags to  
different sources can be adjusted over time. I am keen for us to refer  
to a definition for each feature type rather than trying to do it  
ourselves - defining things in detail is hard and if Wikipedia as a  
good definition of a 'road' or a 'building' that is suitable then we  
should use it.

I suggest we include a Sketchup link for structures that are in the  
Google Sketchup 3D Warehouse. There is not yet even a tag for sketchup  
that I am aware of but it would be a 'bridge' between OSM and a  
project where structures are described in great detail. Note that  
Google's terms of service make it clear that they don't own the  
resulting models but do prohibit end-users from distributing the  
content of the 3D Warehouse content within 'mapping or geographic  
applications'. To my mind distributing a link to a model is ok,  
distributing the model is not.

"Google claims no ownership or control over any Content submitted,  
posted or displayed by you on or through the 3D Warehouse. You or a  
third party licensor, as appropriate, retain all patent, trademark and  
copyright to any Content you submit, post or display on or through the  
3D Warehouse and you are responsible for protecting those rights, as  
appropriate."

"end users may not aggregate the Content obtained from the 3D  
Warehouse for redistribution, and may not use or distribute Content  
obtained from the 3D Warehouse in a mapping or geographic application  
or service without Google’s prior authorization"
http://www.google.com/intl/en/sketchup/3dwh/tos.html

The level of detail in Google Sketchup is impressive and there are  
many 'projects' around the world:
http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/



Regards,


Peter


>
>
> Cheers,
> Sam
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk] Wikipedia & canvec/geobase import

[Sam Vekemans]

Hi all,
i am wondering what you all think about me adding wikipedia links to
the different map features?
Ie. esker, snowshed...
Or i could add a link to EVERY map feature, including the ones that are obvious?

Another alternative is to add a "description:*" or "definition=*"
(spelled correctly)

what about having a pop-up bubble on features, where the default shows
the osm wiki page discribing the feature.
(ie, if your hovering over an unnamed school, the osm article for
'school' would be shown. If it was labled, the official school website
would be shown?
On the OSM article, there IS (or should be) a wikipedia link.

Then if it is a place or attraction, the default could be wikitravel?

Or perhaps i dont need to add tags as the (to be created software)
would be able to spot the basic tags & use them?

Cheers,
Sam

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Moving few meters some OSM/SHP file

[Jukka Rahkonen]

Ivan Garcia  gmail.com> writes:

> 
> 
> I'm trying to find in OpenJump which menu can offer me to move the distance
and angle. Do you know exactly which one?Thanks.Ivan.

Hi,

It seems to be available only from the mouse right click menu, in English the
selection is perhaps "Move along angle".




___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Moving few meters some OSM/SHP file

[Ivan Garcia]

I'm trying to find in OpenJump which menu can offer me to move the distance
and angle. Do you know exactly which one?

Thanks.
Ivan.

On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 11:25 PM, Jukka Rahkonen
wrote:

> Ivan Garcia  gmail.com> writes:
>
> >
> > Hi, is there any program GUI or command line that allows me to move all
> the
> nodes of a OSM/SHP file few meters in any direction N/S/E/W ?I've tried
> JOSM but
> I need to do it manually sellecting all the nodes and moving with
> SHIFT+arrowsBest regards.
>
> OpenJUMP can do that with shapefiles.  Select the features, give distance
> and
> angle and you've done.
>
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk] Lithuanian revert

[OSM Foundation Admin]

--ENGLISH Further down--

Duomenų darbo grupė (anksčiau vadinta Vandalizmo darbo grupe) tyrė
galimą duomenų autorinių teisių pažeidimą Lietuvoje.  Šio tyrimo
pasekoje buvo nuspręsta užblokuoti kai kurias paskyras, ir ištrinti jų
įvestus duomenis.  Pradinis įtarimas buvo iškeltas el. pašto
konferencijoje
(http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2008-August/001077.html
),
dėl ko buvo susisiekta su suinteresuotomis šalimis.  Konkrečiai,
naudotojas Pranas negalėjo pateikti patenkinamo atsako dėl jo įvestų
duomenų šaltinio, taigi šio naudotojo paskyra buvo sustabdyta
tolesniam tyrimui.  Manome, kad iškart po to šis naudotojas ar kiti
netoliese dirbantys naudotojai sukūrė daugelį paskyrų per keletą
valandų, kas sukėlė daugiau įtarimų.

Šią situaciją išsprendėme sustabdydami visas šias paskyras ir
pašalindami visus jų įvestus duomenis.  Tai dalį duomenų sugrąžins į
senesnę būseną, ir dalis vėlesnių pakeitimų bus prarasta.  Tai yra
skaudu, bet neišvengiama.

Paskyrų, kurias palietė šis sprendimas, sąrašas yra pateiktas wiki.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vandalism/Purge_19032009

Į kiekvienos užblokuotos paskyros nurodytą el. pašto adresą išsiuntėme
žinutę, kurioje pranešėme apie šį sprendimą, bei nurodėme, kaip
susisiekti su darbo grupe dėl šio sprendimo peržiūrėjimo.  Be to,
išsiuntėme pranešimus visiems vartotojams, kurie prisidėjo prie
Lietuvos duomenų kūrimo, pranešdami jiems, kad kai kurie jų pakeitimai
galėjo būti prarasti, jei jie buvo padaryti virš pašalintų duomenų.

Kadangi šie abejotini duomenys vis dar egzistuoja ankstesniuose planet
dumpuose, šie dumpai taip pat pašalinti.  Mes tikimės, kad
šie dumpai bus vėl prieinami, kai abejotini duomenys bus iš jų
pašalinti.  Tikimės bendruomenės pagalbos darant šį darbą.

Jei turite klausimų apie šį reikalą, arba bet kokių klausimų dėl
duomenų OpenStreetMap duomenų bazėje, kreipkitės į Duomenų darbo grupę
šiuo adresu: d...@osmfoundation.org

Duomenų darbo grupė
OpenStreetMap Foundation

-

The Data Working Group (formerly called the Vandalism Working Group) has
been investigating a possible data copyright infringement in Lithuania. As a
result of this investigation it has been decided by the group to block a
number of accounts and to delete data relating to these accounts. The
original allegation was raised on the talk mailing list
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2008-August/001077.htmlwhich
resulted in some initial communication with the parties concerned.
Specifically the user Pranas was not able to provide an acceptable response
with respect to the origin of the data entered into OpenStreetMap and this
persons account was temporarily suspended for further investigation. At the
same time we believe that this user and or other users in the area
registered multiple new OpenStreetMap usernames over a short period of a few
hours, this further raised concerns.

The process, which is now complete, has been to shut all of these accounts
and remove all the data belonging to them, this will result in the rollback
of some data and the loss of some data due to later edits, this is
unavoidable but regrettable.

The usernames impacted by this decision can be found on the wiki.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vandalism/Purge_19032009

The registered email address for each account that has been closed has been
sent an email informing of the decision with details of how to contact the
working group in case of appeal. Furthermore we have emailed all the other
contributors of data in Lithuania to let them know why data has suddenly
been removed and to notify them that they may have lost some of their own
data if edits lay on top of the data removed.

Because potentially questionable data still exists in previous planet dumps
these dumps are being withdrawn. It is hoped that these dumps can be made
available again once the questionable data has been removed, community
technical support is requested for undertaking this work.

If you have any questions about this matter or any other matter relating to
the data in the database please email the data working group at
d...@osmfoundation.org. You can find general guidance on how to treat data
abuse, disputes and vandalism, on the wiki at
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vandalism.

Data Working Group
OpenStreetMap Foundation
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Moving few meters some OSM/SHP file

[Ivan Garcia]

Thanks Jukka,

I had problems with OpenJum to load my shapefiles with unicode special
characters, altought uDig didn't have any?

Is that a known problem?

Best Regards.

On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 11:25 PM, Jukka Rahkonen
wrote:

> Ivan Garcia  gmail.com> writes:
>
> >
> > Hi, is there any program GUI or command line that allows me to move all
> the
> nodes of a OSM/SHP file few meters in any direction N/S/E/W ?I've tried
> JOSM but
> I need to do it manually sellecting all the nodes and moving with
> SHIFT+arrowsBest regards.
>
> OpenJUMP can do that with shapefiles.  Select the features, give distance
> and
> angle and you've done.
>
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap and Wikipedia (was: Map tag in Wikipedia)

[Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason]

2009/3/17 Tim 'avatar' Bartel :
> Hi,
>
> 2009/3/11 Frederik Ramm :
>> Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:
>>> Anyway, there's a MediaWiki developer meetup in Berlin next month
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> But it would be very cool if someone that *did* know something about
>>> the OSM platform were to go and talk to the people involved there
>>> about getting OSM on Wikipedia.
>>
>> There will be people who know both OSM and Wikipedia, and they will talk
>> about these things.
>
> Yes. "Church of emacs" provided an English translation of our info
> page - thanks!
>
> You can find it here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/OpenStreetMap
>
> Abstract: Wikimedia Germany is very interested in supporting the
> interaction between OSM and Wikipedia. So the board decided to
> allocate 15.000 Euros for some hardware and initiated a project with
> two main goals:
> - Integrating OSM maps into Wikipedia
> - Building a Map-Toolserver similar to the Wikimedia-Toolserver to
> give any interested OSM developer an easy possibility to build tools
> and special maps without the hassle of building an own infrastructure
> first.
>
> Any further ideas? Add them to the talk page or join us in Berlin!

I'll be coming to the meeting in Berlin and look forward to seeing you
all and discussing OSM intergation into Wikimedia sites.

It would be nice to get all the interested parties together on some
forum before the meeting whether it be IRC, mailing lists or something
else. I added myself to the "Team" section on the wiki but more
communication with the other nodes in said team would be welcome:)

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] mapnik does not display symbols

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On Thursday 12 March 2009 23:26:14 Jon Burgess wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-03-12 at 18:15 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:
> > looks like the problem is missing columns in the lenny install. I checked
> > and find the fedora10 install has 52 columns whereas the lenny one has
> > only 41. I cannot find the file which contains the create table statement
> > - if I can get my hands on that, I could check and manually add the
> > missing columns. btw, the fedora10 install does not have a 'construction'
> > column, but still works. Any idea where this create table statement is
> > and where does it get a list of columns?
>
> The create table command is generated by osm2pgsql. The list of columns
> is defined in the default.style I mentioned earlier in this email chain.
ok. reinstalled everything - default.style has kicked in and I am getting all 
the columns including the 'construction' column. When I run generate_image.py, 
I am getting a perfect image. But when using renderd and mod_tile, I get a 
good image upto about zoom level 12, higher zooms are giving a b0rked image. 
You can see this here:

http://greenchilly.in
-- 
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Associate
NRC-FOSS
http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Alternatives to wikipedia?

[Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)]

Frederik Ramm wrote:
>Sent: 19 March 2009 12:00 AM
>To: Russ Nelson
>Cc: Talk Openstreetmap
>Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Alternatives to wikipedia?
>
>Hi,
>
>Russ Nelson wrote:
>> This is a serious enough issue that it should be escalated to the
>> OSMF.
>
>OSMF telling "the Wikikpedia people" what to do would be like "the
>Wikipedia people" telling us what to do. We'd laugh at them and go on.
>
>A Wikipedia link from OSM is just like any other web link - you have no
>guarantee that its target will remain present (or online). Let's just
>accept this and get on with things. By all means, put a link to
>Encycoplaedia Britannica if you want but how sure are you that this
>outlasts the Wikipedia article?

or we could just start our own factual database beyond geospatial data. Its
clearly a whole lot easier and less contentious if you are only responsible
for documenting fact, and it's a sure way of staying ahead of the game with
this linked-data malarkey.

Leave everything else for Hello magazine.

Cheers

Andy 


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Alternatives to wikipedia?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Russ Nelson wrote:
> This is a serious enough issue that it should be escalated to the  
> OSMF.

OSMF telling "the Wikikpedia people" what to do would be like "the 
Wikipedia people" telling us what to do. We'd laugh at them and go on.

A Wikipedia link from OSM is just like any other web link - you have no 
guarantee that its target will remain present (or online). Let's just 
accept this and get on with things. By all means, put a link to 
Encycoplaedia Britannica if you want but how sure are you that this 
outlasts the Wikipedia article?

Bye
Frederik


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Moving few meters some OSM/SHP file

[Jukka Rahkonen]

Ivan Garcia  gmail.com> writes:

> 
> Hi, is there any program GUI or command line that allows me to move all the
nodes of a OSM/SHP file few meters in any direction N/S/E/W ?I've tried JOSM but
I need to do it manually sellecting all the nodes and moving with
SHIFT+arrowsBest regards.

OpenJUMP can do that with shapefiles.  Select the features, give distance and
angle and you've done.



___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] OSM is a Google Summer of Code 2009 project!

[Ian Dees]

2009/3/18 Mikel Maron 

> http://socghop.appspot.com/org/show/google/gsoc2009/openstreetmap
>
>
You stole my thunder! :)

OSM should start receiving applications for summer of code work soon. Keep
the list of project ideas updated so we can attract some student
applications.

Thanks,
Ian
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap and Wikipedia (was: Map tag in Wikipedia)

[Lars Aronsson]

Tim 'avatar' Bartel wrote:

> Regarding the people interested in the map project: Because the 
> project just started, it won't be too useful to add more people 
> to the group before we have buyed the servers, brought them to 
> our data center in Amsterdam and set up a base system.

There's a lot more to be done, and a lot more going on with maps 
in Wikipedia than just the new map toolserver.  The 15,000 euro 
from WMDE is another step forward, but not the first and not the 
last.  The existing toolserver with the GeoHack and WikiMiniAtlas 
applications represents a series of previous steps forward.

The Berlin meetup is one chance for those interested in all of 
these little projects to see each other, learn about recent 
advances, and discuss how to continue from here.  Another such 
chance is the State of the Map conference in July.  The deadline 
for SOTM paper submissions is May 3. Enough time to get ideas in 
Berlin and write up a synopsis for SOTM.

Setting up the map toolserver will be important. But other people 
can do other things in the same time. For example, we will have to 
consider how the current coordinate links in Wikipedia articles 
should be changed to inline map presentations.  Should they fit in 
infoboxes?  We still have no system for interwiki synchronization 
of coordinates.  Different languages of Wikipedia can specify 
different coordinates for the same city, with different precision. 
To what extent does OSM link back to Wikipedia, and how should 
that be improved? I recently introduced WikiMiniAtlas in the 
Swedish Wikipedia, and initiated a translation of the GeoHack page 
into Norwegian (bokmål and nynorsk).  Yesterday, the page 
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/OpenStreetMap was translated into 
Swedish and Russian. At the Berlin meet-up we can inspire someone 
to do such things for other languages of Wikipedia.

Last year, Inge Wallin and I applied for funds for a Swedish tile 
server. The hardware is being installed now. Our primary interest 
is to render OSM in the style of Swedish cartography. But we also 
need to know how this can best be coordinated with the German map 
toolserver and other resources.

So, "the map project" is a lot bigger than the map toolserver.


-- 
  Lars Aronsson (l...@aronsson.se)
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Spam] Re: [Spam] Re: Alternatives to wikipedia?

[Peter Miller]

On 18 Mar 2009, at 21:23, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

>
> Peter - are you really sure about geograph? AIUI only the photos are
> CC-BY-SA, the geolocation is OS-derived. Please check.
>

I am sure that Barry Hunter (who started it) assured me at sotm2008  
that the whole thing is CCBYSA and that the OS who sponsor the project  
had agreed to that but I don't see that message repeated on their  
website. I will check with him again and report back.


Regards,


Peter


> Sorry for crap formatting, moving house so on mobile.
>
> Richard
>
>
> Peter Miller-7 wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 18 Mar 2009, at 17:11, Lester Caine wrote:
>>
>>> Tim 'avatar' Bartel wrote:
>
>
> If we're going to cooperate with Wikipedia, then they need to
> cooperate with us by not allowing any dangling links.

 There are several reasons why this isn't possible, but the biggest
 one
 is the following: Wikipedia isn't controlled by the Wikimedia
 Foundation but by the community. With whom do you like to make an
 arrangement? It's pretty hard to make an arrangement with a  
 community
 consisting out of constantly changing people.
>>>
>>> That is probably the main reason who I would prefer to find an
>>> alternative 'location' to direct links to. And some useful  
>>> suggestions
>>> have already been made.
>>>
>>> While I CAN appreciate the idea of our own wiki. That would  
>>> require a
>>> lot more hardware. Viovio has several terabytes of images already,
>>> and I
>>> suspect wikitravel.org can probably top that. So sharing the load
>>> would
>>> sound a lot more sensible?
>>
>> As I see it there are a number of different sorts of 'associated'  
>> data
>> for OSM that needs a reliable and welcoming home somewhere:
>>
>> 1) Photos - these need to have locations and a direction or
>> alternatively two positions, one for the camera and one for the
>> subject of the photo. In addition to that it is useful to know when  
>> it
>> was taken and any special attributes, was it taken when it was
>> snowing, was it raining, is it a picture of something pretty or of a
>> defect or of a signpost or what. All of this information would allow
>> applications to decide which ones to use. A journey planner would  
>> show
>> pictures of the pretty things on the route but another application
>> might want to show defects to the local council or show illegal
>> parking to the police. So... there is a whole load of stuff to do  
>> with
>> photos , some pretty pictures of scenery can go in WikiTravel and
>> Viovio etc, but some of the other stuff wouldn't be appreciated there
>> and we might need to provide a home.
>>
>> 2) Articles - background information for a street, when it was
>> constructed, why, where its name came from and possibly plans for its
>> future. Hard to see who else would give this house-room.
>>
>> 3) Subjective information about ways - muddy in winter, poor  
>> lighting,
>> too narrow for a double buggy, very crowded on market days etc.
>>
>> I would like us to think about all this stuff. We need to decide  
>> which
>> bit below in Wikipedia (certainly the right place for articles about
>> towns), for Viovio (pretty pictures?), and which nerdy details about
>> traffic, pot poles, traffic signs and bus stop poles and origins of
>> street names belong in OSM and no-where else.
>>
>> Finally, lets not be frightened about the cost of another box and the
>> hosting because terrabytes and gigabytes are really cheap these days.
>> We have just bought a box with 7 Terrabytes of disk storage and it
>> cost <£100 per terrabyte. We are also about to import all 1,000,000  
>> of
>> photos of geographic features in the UK  from Geograph (all CCBYSA)  
>> to
>> see how it copes.
>>
>> Can I suggest that if we are serious about this that we get a wiki
>> page together with the brief for the project and see what it looks
>> like as we work on it. Does this project have a name and are in vague
>> agreement about the scope and the need?
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Lester Caine - G8HFL
>>> -
>>> Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
>>> L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
>>> EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
>>> Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
>>> Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php
>>>
>>> ___
>>> talk mailing list
>>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>>
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>>
>
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://www.nabble.com/Alternatives-to-wikipedia--tp22574913p22588822.html
> Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at  
> Nabble.com.
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http:

[OSM-talk] OSM is a Google Summer of Code 2009 project!

[Mikel Maron]

http://socghop.appspot.com/org/show/google/gsoc2009/openstreetmap
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Spam] Re: Alternatives to wikipedia?

[Richard Fairhurst]

Peter - are you really sure about geograph? AIUI only the photos are
CC-BY-SA, the geolocation is OS-derived. Please check.

Sorry for crap formatting, moving house so on mobile.

Richard


Peter Miller-7 wrote:
> 
> 
> On 18 Mar 2009, at 17:11, Lester Caine wrote:
> 
>> Tim 'avatar' Bartel wrote:


 If we're going to cooperate with Wikipedia, then they need to
 cooperate with us by not allowing any dangling links.
>>>
>>> There are several reasons why this isn't possible, but the biggest  
>>> one
>>> is the following: Wikipedia isn't controlled by the Wikimedia
>>> Foundation but by the community. With whom do you like to make an
>>> arrangement? It's pretty hard to make an arrangement with a community
>>> consisting out of constantly changing people.
>>
>> That is probably the main reason who I would prefer to find an
>> alternative 'location' to direct links to. And some useful suggestions
>> have already been made.
>>
>> While I CAN appreciate the idea of our own wiki. That would require a
>> lot more hardware. Viovio has several terabytes of images already,  
>> and I
>> suspect wikitravel.org can probably top that. So sharing the load  
>> would
>> sound a lot more sensible?
> 
> As I see it there are a number of different sorts of 'associated' data  
> for OSM that needs a reliable and welcoming home somewhere:
> 
> 1) Photos - these need to have locations and a direction or  
> alternatively two positions, one for the camera and one for the  
> subject of the photo. In addition to that it is useful to know when it  
> was taken and any special attributes, was it taken when it was  
> snowing, was it raining, is it a picture of something pretty or of a  
> defect or of a signpost or what. All of this information would allow  
> applications to decide which ones to use. A journey planner would show  
> pictures of the pretty things on the route but another application  
> might want to show defects to the local council or show illegal  
> parking to the police. So... there is a whole load of stuff to do with  
> photos , some pretty pictures of scenery can go in WikiTravel and  
> Viovio etc, but some of the other stuff wouldn't be appreciated there  
> and we might need to provide a home.
> 
> 2) Articles - background information for a street, when it was  
> constructed, why, where its name came from and possibly plans for its  
> future. Hard to see who else would give this house-room.
> 
> 3) Subjective information about ways - muddy in winter, poor lighting,  
> too narrow for a double buggy, very crowded on market days etc.
> 
> I would like us to think about all this stuff. We need to decide which  
> bit below in Wikipedia (certainly the right place for articles about  
> towns), for Viovio (pretty pictures?), and which nerdy details about  
> traffic, pot poles, traffic signs and bus stop poles and origins of  
> street names belong in OSM and no-where else.
> 
> Finally, lets not be frightened about the cost of another box and the  
> hosting because terrabytes and gigabytes are really cheap these days.  
> We have just bought a box with 7 Terrabytes of disk storage and it  
> cost <£100 per terrabyte. We are also about to import all 1,000,000 of  
> photos of geographic features in the UK  from Geograph (all CCBYSA) to  
> see how it copes.
> 
> Can I suggest that if we are serious about this that we get a wiki  
> page together with the brief for the project and see what it looks  
> like as we work on it. Does this project have a name and are in vague  
> agreement about the scope and the need?
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> Peter
> 
> 
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Lester Caine - G8HFL
>> -
>> Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
>> L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
>> EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
>> Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
>> Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php
>>
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> 
> 
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> 
> 

-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/Alternatives-to-wikipedia--tp22574913p22588822.html
Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk] Moving few meters some OSM/SHP file

[Ivan Garcia]

Hi, is there any program GUI or command line that allows me to move all the
nodes of a OSM/SHP file few meters in any direction N/S/E/W ?

I've tried JOSM but I need to do it manually sellecting all the nodes and
moving with SHIFT+arrows

Best regards.
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] restart the Mapnik daemon?

[Tom Hughes]

Wes Townsend wrote:

> Apologies, as I am new to this list. Can someone restart the Mapnik 
> daemon? I am getting blank output when I export an Area (using the GUI). 

There is no daemon, or at least not one that is involved in the export 
tab - there is just a CGI script that renders a map from the database.

The problem you are seeing will be because the weekly database import is 
in progress - the mapnik export does not work while that is happening.

Tom

-- 
Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
http://www.compton.nu/

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] restart the Mapnik daemon?

[Jon Burgess]

On Wed, 2009-03-18 at 15:13 -0400, Wes Townsend wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Apologies, as I am new to this list. Can someone restart the Mapnik
> daemon? I am getting blank output when I export an Area (using the
> GUI). Thank you.

The output will be blank until the weekly import completes in a few
hours time.

Jon



___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Spam] Re: Alternatives to wikipedia?

[Lars Aronsson]

Lester Caine wrote:

> I'd have a little more sympathy with wikipedia if they did not slap 

The problem with your criticism is that "they" can't be 
identified.  It is like blaming "the OSM mappers" (what? me?) for 
putting more energy into mapping England than Scotland. You can of 
course be dissatisfied with the poor coverage of some regions, but 
you don't achieve anything by trying to blame the entire project 
for this.

Some articles get improved, others not, others again get deleted. 
The best insurance for keeping your article is to make it good. 
>From OSM, perhaps we should just link to Wikipedia articles that 
are pretty good already (more than 1 kbyte of text, and having 
source citations), since these are more likely to stay around.

> The person how decided to complain should be required to back up 
> a complaint within a reasonable time,

And now you're complaining about Wikipedia. So how are you going 
to "back up" your complaint? By improving Wikipedia?



-- 
  Lars Aronsson (l...@aronsson.se)
  Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk] restart the Mapnik daemon?

[Wes Townsend]

Hi,

Apologies, as I am new to this list. Can someone restart the Mapnik daemon?
I am getting blank output when I export an Area (using the GUI). Thank you.

-Wes
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Spam] Re: Alternatives to wikipedia?

[paul youlten]

Is there any reason that we can't use Flickr to host photographs? they
seem to be fans of OSM:

http://blog.flickr.net/en/2008/08/12/around-the-world-and-back-again/

PaulY

On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 7:15 PM, Tom Hughes  wrote:
> Peter Miller wrote:
>
>> Finally, lets not be frightened about the cost of another box and the
>> hosting because terrabytes and gigabytes are really cheap these days. We
>> have just bought a box with 7 Terrabytes of disk storage and it cost
>> <£100 per terrabyte. We are also about to import all 1,000,000 of photos
>> of geographic features in the UK  from Geograph (all CCBYSA) to see how
>> it copes.
>
> Monetary cost is, I agree, not the issue. Time costs for development,
> maintenance and administration are.
>
> I think we should stick to doing one thing well and rather than trying
> to do lots of things and not managing to do any of them well.
>
> Tom
>
> --
> Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
> http://www.compton.nu/
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>



-- 
Tel: +44(0) 7814 517 807

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Spam] Re: Alternatives to wikipedia?

[Tom Hughes]

Peter Miller wrote:

> Finally, lets not be frightened about the cost of another box and the 
> hosting because terrabytes and gigabytes are really cheap these days. We 
> have just bought a box with 7 Terrabytes of disk storage and it cost 
> <£100 per terrabyte. We are also about to import all 1,000,000 of photos 
> of geographic features in the UK  from Geograph (all CCBYSA) to see how 
> it copes.

Monetary cost is, I agree, not the issue. Time costs for development, 
maintenance and administration are.

I think we should stick to doing one thing well and rather than trying 
to do lots of things and not managing to do any of them well.

Tom

-- 
Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
http://www.compton.nu/

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-legal-talk] License Working Group meeting today

[SteveC]

Dear all

Due to some phone problems for one of our number being unable to dial  
in to the call, we decided that we should postpone by a day to sort  
those issues out. We covered a little ground - essentially that we've  
not had back feedback from OSMFs lawyer yet and some slight changes to  
the plan to take in to consideration good points received from the  
community - namely that we should build in time for a 1.0 review also.

More tomorrow.

Best

Steve


___
legal-talk mailing list
legal-t...@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Spam] Re: Alternatives to wikipedia?

[Peter Miller]

On 18 Mar 2009, at 17:11, Lester Caine wrote:


Tim 'avatar' Bartel wrote:



If we're going to cooperate with Wikipedia, then they need to
cooperate with us by not allowing any dangling links.


There are several reasons why this isn't possible, but the biggest  
one

is the following: Wikipedia isn't controlled by the Wikimedia
Foundation but by the community. With whom do you like to make an
arrangement? It's pretty hard to make an arrangement with a community
consisting out of constantly changing people.


That is probably the main reason who I would prefer to find an
alternative 'location' to direct links to. And some useful suggestions
have already been made.

While I CAN appreciate the idea of our own wiki. That would require a
lot more hardware. Viovio has several terabytes of images already,  
and I
suspect wikitravel.org can probably top that. So sharing the load  
would

sound a lot more sensible?


As I see it there are a number of different sorts of 'associated' data  
for OSM that needs a reliable and welcoming home somewhere:


1) Photos - these need to have locations and a direction or  
alternatively two positions, one for the camera and one for the  
subject of the photo. In addition to that it is useful to know when it  
was taken and any special attributes, was it taken when it was  
snowing, was it raining, is it a picture of something pretty or of a  
defect or of a signpost or what. All of this information would allow  
applications to decide which ones to use. A journey planner would show  
pictures of the pretty things on the route but another application  
might want to show defects to the local council or show illegal  
parking to the police. So... there is a whole load of stuff to do with  
photos , some pretty pictures of scenery can go in WikiTravel and  
Viovio etc, but some of the other stuff wouldn't be appreciated there  
and we might need to provide a home.


2) Articles - background information for a street, when it was  
constructed, why, where its name came from and possibly plans for its  
future. Hard to see who else would give this house-room.


3) Subjective information about ways - muddy in winter, poor lighting,  
too narrow for a double buggy, very crowded on market days etc.


I would like us to think about all this stuff. We need to decide which  
bit below in Wikipedia (certainly the right place for articles about  
towns), for Viovio (pretty pictures?), and which nerdy details about  
traffic, pot poles, traffic signs and bus stop poles and origins of  
street names belong in OSM and no-where else.


Finally, lets not be frightened about the cost of another box and the  
hosting because terrabytes and gigabytes are really cheap these days.  
We have just bought a box with 7 Terrabytes of disk storage and it  
cost <£100 per terrabyte. We are also about to import all 1,000,000 of  
photos of geographic features in the UK  from Geograph (all CCBYSA) to  
see how it copes.


Can I suggest that if we are serious about this that we get a wiki  
page together with the brief for the project and see what it looks  
like as we work on it. Does this project have a name and are in vague  
agreement about the scope and the need?



Regards,


Peter





--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Alternatives to wikipedia?

[Lester Caine]

Tim 'avatar' Bartel wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> 2009/3/18 Russ Nelson :
>> On Mar 18, 2009, at 4:53 AM, Lester Caine wrote:
>>
>>> On a number of occasions in the past I have linked to articles only
>>> later to find the 'censors' message at the end of a link :( and I know
>>> we have had this discussion in the past where other OSM contributors
>>> have found the same problem.
>> This is a serious enough issue that it should be escalated to the
>> OSMF.  They should make an arrangement with Wikipedia saying: that an
>> article linked from OSM to Wikipedia is by definition noteworthy, and
>> that that justification cannot be used to delete an article from
>> Wikipedia.  There might be other reasons: for example that the
>> locations linked between OSM and Wikipedia are in fact not related, or
>> the *location* is not worth including in OSM.
>>
>> If we're going to cooperate with Wikipedia, then they need to
>> cooperate with us by not allowing any dangling links.
> 
> There are several reasons why this isn't possible, but the biggest one
> is the following: Wikipedia isn't controlled by the Wikimedia
> Foundation but by the community. With whom do you like to make an
> arrangement? It's pretty hard to make an arrangement with a community
> consisting out of constantly changing people.

That is probably the main reason who I would prefer to find an 
alternative 'location' to direct links to. And some useful suggestions 
have already been made.

While I CAN appreciate the idea of our own wiki. That would require a 
lot more hardware. Viovio has several terabytes of images already, and I 
suspect wikitravel.org can probably top that. So sharing the load would 
sound a lot more sensible?

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Alternatives to wikipedia?

[Tim 'avatar' Bartel]

Hi,

2009/3/18 Russ Nelson :
> On Mar 18, 2009, at 4:53 AM, Lester Caine wrote:
>
>> On a number of occasions in the past I have linked to articles only
>> later to find the 'censors' message at the end of a link :( and I know
>> we have had this discussion in the past where other OSM contributors
>> have found the same problem.
>
> This is a serious enough issue that it should be escalated to the
> OSMF.  They should make an arrangement with Wikipedia saying: that an
> article linked from OSM to Wikipedia is by definition noteworthy, and
> that that justification cannot be used to delete an article from
> Wikipedia.  There might be other reasons: for example that the
> locations linked between OSM and Wikipedia are in fact not related, or
> the *location* is not worth including in OSM.
>
> If we're going to cooperate with Wikipedia, then they need to
> cooperate with us by not allowing any dangling links.

There are several reasons why this isn't possible, but the biggest one
is the following: Wikipedia isn't controlled by the Wikimedia
Foundation but by the community. With whom do you like to make an
arrangement? It's pretty hard to make an arrangement with a community
consisting out of constantly changing people.

Bye, Tim.

-- 
http://wikipedistik.de

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Alternatives to wikipedia?

[Lester Caine]

These should have been to the list ... pigging 'redirect'!

Shaun McDonald wrote:
> Hi Philip,
> 
> What's the status of Includipedia? Did the import every get fully 
> completed?

As long as you use 'search' Includipedia actually looks quite a complete
copy of wikipedia and none of the model railway pages I've been tracking
have have any of the censorship crap on them ;) I'd had to drop links to
wikipedia because of their treatment of model railway attractions ...

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Alternatives to wikipedia?

[Lester Caine]

These should have been to the list ... pigging 'redirect'!

Shaun McDonald wrote:
> Hi Lester,
> 
> You could take a look at includipedia, which is basically a fork of the 
> wikipedia to become an inclusive version of the wikipedia.

I have seen that - but it seems to have stalled? I've never been able to
navigate it ...

http://en.citizendium.org seems to highlight the 'problem' with
wikipedia - especially since it's being developed by one of wikipedias
founders ;)

http://open-site.org is probably more what *I* had in mind, but it does
seem to be a bit out of date on key country data :( But the world Fact
Book should be the only reference needed for that nowadays.

> Shaun
> 
> On 18 Mar 2009, at 08:53, Lester Caine wrote:
> 
>> While the effort being put into links WITH wikipedia are to be
>> applauded, many of us are no longer contributing to wikipedia because of
>> their propensity to kill of material that is not 'noteworthy'!
>>
>> On a number of occasions in the past I have linked to articles only
>> later to find the 'censors' message at the end of a link :( and I know
>> we have had this discussion in the past where other OSM contributors
>> have found the same problem.
>>
>> The bottom line in my mind is that if we applied the same heavy handed
>> rubber to OSM that is applied in wikipedia then many people whould have
>> walked from here.
>>
>> All I am probably asking at this point is that links FROM OSM to an
>> article should bear some what when an 'editor' gets it into his head
>> that the article should be chopped. But that can only be ensured by
>> pressure inside wikipedia, and some flag that osm IS linking to it?
>>
>> In the meantime, the bulk of the links WE need to create at this time
>> are to secondary place information, and there are lots of alternative -
>> more open - places that we can link to.
>>
>> https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/index.html
>>  Freely usable up to date facts ...
>> http://www.geonames.org/ - Only really useful as a cross reference?
>>  OSM search usually gets the location right, but a link back to
>>  source search would be useful?
>> http://www.infoplease.com/atlas/ - ( with advertising :( )
>> http://wikitravel.org- Growing library of local information
>> http://www.viovio.com/travel/ - Growing photo gallery
>>  ( This site would benefit from replacing MapQuest by OSM ;) )
>> http://www.flickr.com/places/ Pictures via place name - roughly
>>
>> Of cause what would be nice would be a common standard for location
>> names, so we can just create new links automatically. I keep returning
>> to a nice hierarchic front end for osm, which nowadays is probably just
>> a different view on the place search?

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Alternatives to wikipedia?

[anonymous guy]

On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 9:01 AM, Russ Nelson  wrote:
> Then perhaps we need to, as Lester suggests, have our own information
> base?  Either link to includipedia or else link to our own wiki --
> which would redirect to Wikipedia if no such article exists.

I agree with the idea of setting up a wiki just for this effort.

The main justification I would have is that it's never a good idea to
take all your and your community's efforts and hand them over to a
third party's care.  If for any reason something happens, you're stuck
without your work at least or you're life is made quite complex.

It's an easy habit to get into making infoboxes or "see also" type
links which go to the various other good sources out there.
- wikipedia, includipedia, citizendium, etc.
- official government website
- official travel website
- whatever

Perhaps if the page/link naming scheme was kept the same as
Wikipedia's, then you could hack a link into the template which would
automatically appear on every article page.


If I can manage to get into things, I'd gladly donate some spare time
assisting.  I've been involved in several medium-sized MediaWiki
installations in the past.


a9,

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Spam] Re: Alternatives to wikipedia?

[Lester Caine]

Peter Miller wrote:
> 
> 
> 2009/3/18 Russ Nelson mailto:r...@cloudmade.com>>
> 
> 
> On Mar 18, 2009, at 4:53 AM, Lester Caine wrote:
> 
>  > While the effort being put into links WITH wikipedia are to be
>  > applauded, many of us are no longer contributing to wikipedia
>  > because of
>  > their propensity to kill of material that is not 'noteworthy'!
>  >
>  > On a number of occasions in the past I have linked to articles only
>  > later to find the 'censors' message at the end of a link :( and I
> know
>  > we have had this discussion in the past where other OSM contributors
>  > have found the same problem.
> 
> This is a serious enough issue that it should be escalated to the
> OSMF.  They should make an arrangement with Wikipedia saying: that an
> article linked from OSM to Wikipedia is by definition noteworthy, and
> that that justification cannot be used to delete an article from
> Wikipedia.  There might be other reasons: for example that the
> locations linked between OSM and Wikipedia are in fact not related, or
> the *location* is not worth including in OSM.
> 
> With respect, there are good reasons for some articles to not make it 
> into Wikipedia. Certainly the process for removing them can be a little 
> crude but the notability criteria for Wikipedia are necessary. I had 
> trouble with some articles about minor ferry services in Suffolk (one 
> did arguably have notability as being the smallest registered ferry in 
> Europe, however even that was not enough for the group). They were 
> deemed 'not-notable' individually but I did get them to stick when 
> someone suggested an article 'local ferries in Suffolk'. It would have 
> been better to have had another place to put them where that problem 
> didn't arise but WIkipedia is not that place really. Here is what we 
> ended up with...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Ferries_in_Suffolk

I'd have a little more sympathy with wikipedia if they did not slap 
large banners over many articles and then not ACTUALLY do anything about 
them for 18 months ...
The person how decided to complain should be required to back up a 
complaint within a reasonable time, or the banners simply get taken off. 
A lot of the potential links I WAS making in 2007 still have the same 
garbage plastered over them and none of the points of clarification I 
posted at the time have ever been answered :(

> It may be necessary for OSM to create a companion wiki for OSM where 
> every feature or relation (or group of features) can have an article and 
> that existence of a feature in OSM is criteria enough for inclusion but 
> it would need people who would maintain it and it would need to be 
> linked into the OSM tool base.
> 
> ITO would be very supportive of an initiative to provide descriptions, 
> photos and subjective information about features in the OSM database 
> which don't belong in OSM itself. The word 'smoothness' comes to mind! 
> If anyone is interested in this then possibly we should set up a wiki 
> page for it:)

I have to admit to a side line interest in viovio and I will be looking 
at switching the mapping links to use osm, but while 'researching' this 
email, http://wikitravel.org came up and seems to provide a very nice 
base that we could dovetail with nicely!

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Alternatives to wikipedia?

[Russ Nelson]

On Mar 18, 2009, at 11:57 AM, Dave Stubbs wrote:
>
> Wikipedia have their whole concept of notability. We have the concept
> that if it exists you can map it. This isn't really compatible.

Then perhaps we need to, as Lester suggests, have our own information  
base?  Either link to includipedia or else link to our own wiki --  
which would redirect to Wikipedia if no such article exists.
--
Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson
r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - 
http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Alternatives to wikipedia?

[Dave Stubbs]

2009/3/18 Russ Nelson :
>
> On Mar 18, 2009, at 4:53 AM, Lester Caine wrote:
>
>> While the effort being put into links WITH wikipedia are to be
>> applauded, many of us are no longer contributing to wikipedia
>> because of
>> their propensity to kill of material that is not 'noteworthy'!
>>
>> On a number of occasions in the past I have linked to articles only
>> later to find the 'censors' message at the end of a link :( and I know
>> we have had this discussion in the past where other OSM contributors
>> have found the same problem.
>
> This is a serious enough issue that it should be escalated to the
> OSMF.  They should make an arrangement with Wikipedia saying: that an
> article linked from OSM to Wikipedia is by definition noteworthy, and
> that that justification cannot be used to delete an article from
> Wikipedia.  There might be other reasons: for example that the
> locations linked between OSM and Wikipedia are in fact not related, or
> the *location* is not worth including in OSM.
>
> If we're going to cooperate with Wikipedia, then they need to
> cooperate with us by not allowing any dangling links.
>


Wikipedia have their whole concept of notability. We have the concept
that if it exists you can map it. This isn't really compatible. If I
map my house (I have done, it's an address, OSM wants that data) and
link it to a page about my house on wikipedia I'd fully expect the
wikipedia article to get deleted on notability grounds. My house is
not notable just because it exists, but it is worth mapping.

It's not just us who might link to a wikipedia page that gets removed
on such grounds. That's wikipedia's problem, not ours, and they seem
quite happy with it.

Dave

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Spam] Re: Alternatives to wikipedia?

[Peter Miller]

2009/3/18 Russ Nelson 

>
> On Mar 18, 2009, at 4:53 AM, Lester Caine wrote:
>
> > While the effort being put into links WITH wikipedia are to be
> > applauded, many of us are no longer contributing to wikipedia
> > because of
> > their propensity to kill of material that is not 'noteworthy'!
> >
> > On a number of occasions in the past I have linked to articles only
> > later to find the 'censors' message at the end of a link :( and I know
> > we have had this discussion in the past where other OSM contributors
> > have found the same problem.
>
> This is a serious enough issue that it should be escalated to the
> OSMF.  They should make an arrangement with Wikipedia saying: that an
> article linked from OSM to Wikipedia is by definition noteworthy, and
> that that justification cannot be used to delete an article from
> Wikipedia.  There might be other reasons: for example that the
> locations linked between OSM and Wikipedia are in fact not related, or
> the *location* is not worth including in OSM.



With respect, there are good reasons for some articles to not make it into
Wikipedia. Certainly the process for removing them can be a little crude but
the notability criteria for Wikipedia are necessary. I had trouble with some
articles about minor ferry services in Suffolk (one did arguably have
notability as being the smallest registered ferry in Europe, however even
that was not enough for the group). They were deemed 'not-notable'
individually but I did get them to stick when someone suggested an article
'local ferries in Suffolk'. It would have been better to have had another
place to put them where that problem didn't arise but WIkipedia is not that
place really. Here is what we ended up with...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Ferries_in_Suffolk

It may be necessary for OSM to create a companion wiki for OSM where every
feature or relation (or group of features) can have an article and that
existence of a feature in OSM is criteria enough for inclusion but it would
need people who would maintain it and it would need to be linked into the
OSM tool base.

ITO would be very supportive of an initiative to provide descriptions,
photos and subjective information about features in the OSM database which
don't belong in OSM itself. The word 'smoothness' comes to mind! If anyone
is interested in this then possibly we should set up a wiki page for it:)


Regards,


Peter Miller
ITO World Ltd



>
>
> If we're going to cooperate with Wikipedia, then they need to
> cooperate with us by not allowing any dangling links.
>
> --
> Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog -
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson
> r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM -
> http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] GPS track upload working?

[Kærast]

On Wed, 18 Mar 2009 13:58:41 + (UTC)
Ed Avis  wrote:

> When I try to upload a GPS track using
> , it takes a while and then
> gives a blank page.  The track does not appear in the list (even as
> 'pending').
> 
> Is anyone else seeing the same?
> 

I had something similar this morning, it seemed to upload ok but didn't
appear in the list as pending and then I got an import failure email:

failed to import. Here's the error:

  Unable to open /store/gpx/traces/335849.gpx (errno=No such file or
directory) XML parser at line 0 column 0

Since that trace didn't actually add much new I gave up and just
used it locally.  I've just uploaded another trace though which has
uploaded and parsed ok.

-- 
Alice

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Alternatives to wikipedia?

[Russ Nelson]

On Mar 18, 2009, at 4:53 AM, Lester Caine wrote:

> While the effort being put into links WITH wikipedia are to be
> applauded, many of us are no longer contributing to wikipedia  
> because of
> their propensity to kill of material that is not 'noteworthy'!
>
> On a number of occasions in the past I have linked to articles only
> later to find the 'censors' message at the end of a link :( and I know
> we have had this discussion in the past where other OSM contributors
> have found the same problem.

This is a serious enough issue that it should be escalated to the  
OSMF.  They should make an arrangement with Wikipedia saying: that an  
article linked from OSM to Wikipedia is by definition noteworthy, and  
that that justification cannot be used to delete an article from  
Wikipedia.  There might be other reasons: for example that the  
locations linked between OSM and Wikipedia are in fact not related, or  
the *location* is not worth including in OSM.

If we're going to cooperate with Wikipedia, then they need to  
cooperate with us by not allowing any dangling links.

--
Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson
r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - 
http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] GPS track upload working?

[Shaun McDonald]

What is the size of the track that you are trying to upload?

Shaun

On 18 Mar 2009, at 13:58, Ed Avis wrote:

> When I try to upload a GPS track using  >,
> it takes a while and then gives a blank page.  The track does not  
> appear in the
> list (even as 'pending').
>
> Is anyone else seeing the same?
>
> -- 
> Ed Avis 
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk] GPS track upload working?

[Ed Avis]

When I try to upload a GPS track using ,
it takes a while and then gives a blank page.  The track does not appear in the
list (even as 'pending').

Is anyone else seeing the same?

-- 
Ed Avis 


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Alternatives to wikipedia?

[Shaun McDonald]

Hi Lester,

You could take a look at includipedia, which is basically a fork of  
the wikipedia to become an inclusive version of the wikipedia.

Shaun

On 18 Mar 2009, at 08:53, Lester Caine wrote:

> While the effort being put into links WITH wikipedia are to be
> applauded, many of us are no longer contributing to wikipedia  
> because of
> their propensity to kill of material that is not 'noteworthy'!
>
> On a number of occasions in the past I have linked to articles only
> later to find the 'censors' message at the end of a link :( and I know
> we have had this discussion in the past where other OSM contributors
> have found the same problem.
>
> The bottom line in my mind is that if we applied the same heavy handed
> rubber to OSM that is applied in wikipedia then many people whould  
> have
> walked from here.
>
> All I am probably asking at this point is that links FROM OSM to an
> article should bear some what when an 'editor' gets it into his head
> that the article should be chopped. But that can only be ensured by
> pressure inside wikipedia, and some flag that osm IS linking to it?
>
> In the meantime, the bulk of the links WE need to create at this time
> are to secondary place information, and there are lots of  
> alternative -
> more open - places that we can link to.
>
> https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/index.html
>  Freely usable up to date facts ...
> http://www.geonames.org/ - Only really useful as a cross reference?
>  OSM search usually gets the location right, but a link back to
>  source search would be useful?
> http://www.infoplease.com/atlas/ - ( with advertising :( )
> http://wikitravel.org- Growing library of local information
> http://www.viovio.com/travel/ - Growing photo gallery
>  ( This site would benefit from replacing MapQuest by OSM ;) )
> http://www.flickr.com/places/ Pictures via place name - roughly
>
> Of cause what would be nice would be a common standard for location
> names, so we can just create new links automatically. I keep returning
> to a nice hierarchic front end for osm, which nowadays is probably  
> just
> a different view on the place search?
>
> -- 
> Lester Caine - G8HFL
> -
> Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
> L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
> EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
> Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
> Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk] Alternatives to wikipedia?

[Lester Caine]

While the effort being put into links WITH wikipedia are to be 
applauded, many of us are no longer contributing to wikipedia because of 
their propensity to kill of material that is not 'noteworthy'!

On a number of occasions in the past I have linked to articles only 
later to find the 'censors' message at the end of a link :( and I know 
we have had this discussion in the past where other OSM contributors 
have found the same problem.

The bottom line in my mind is that if we applied the same heavy handed 
rubber to OSM that is applied in wikipedia then many people whould have 
walked from here.

All I am probably asking at this point is that links FROM OSM to an 
article should bear some what when an 'editor' gets it into his head 
that the article should be chopped. But that can only be ensured by 
pressure inside wikipedia, and some flag that osm IS linking to it?

In the meantime, the bulk of the links WE need to create at this time 
are to secondary place information, and there are lots of alternative - 
more open - places that we can link to.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/index.html
  Freely usable up to date facts ...
http://www.geonames.org/ - Only really useful as a cross reference?
  OSM search usually gets the location right, but a link back to
  source search would be useful?
http://www.infoplease.com/atlas/ - ( with advertising :( )
http://wikitravel.org- Growing library of local information
http://www.viovio.com/travel/ - Growing photo gallery
  ( This site would benefit from replacing MapQuest by OSM ;) )
http://www.flickr.com/places/ Pictures via place name - roughly

Of cause what would be nice would be a common standard for location 
names, so we can just create new links automatically. I keep returning 
to a nice hierarchic front end for osm, which nowadays is probably just 
a different view on the place search?

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Multipolygons in Mapnik

[Martijn van Oosterhout]

On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 7:53 PM, Jon Burgess  wrote:
> You are correct, the hourly diff imports can not handle the multipolygon
> relation properly. These will fix themselves after the weekly import
> each Wednesday. Any edit to the nodes or ways in the relation will
> probably break it again.

Does anyone have a grip on the actual problem? When I wrote the diff
handling code I thought I covered all the bases, so I'd be interested
to know the failure mode.

Have a nice day,
-- 
Martijn van Oosterhout  http://svana.org/kleptog/

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk