Re: [OSM-talk] Project of the Week 2010Mar28 - Swimming in data

[John Smith]

On 31 March 2010 08:34, Jon Burgess  wrote:
> place=island should have no effect on it.

Other than being used to display the name does that tag get rendered at all?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Project of the Week 2010Mar28 - Swimming in data

[Jon Burgess]

On Tue, 2010-03-30 at 16:45 +0100, Grant Slater wrote:
> 2010/3/30 John Smith :
> > anything tagged natural=coastline only updates intermitently, I'm not
> > sure if there is a regular schedule or not, however shape files are
> > produced from the coastline segments and so on and so forth.
> >
> 
> Coastlines updating is currently a manual process for tile.osm.org
> 
> Coastline Checker is much more frequently updated:
> http://coastline.openstreetmap.nl/ (see update line on site)
> Details on wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Coastline_error_checker

The shapefiles were last updated just a couple of days ago, from the
planet-100324.osm.bz2 file. I can't see any obvious reason why the
islands would be missing. The coastline generating utility really only
cares about things tagged with natural=coastline so any other tags like
place=island should have no effect on it.

  Jon



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Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?

[Gregory]

On 30 March 2010 06:04, Tobias Knerr  wrote:

> Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:
> > Did you read the website? Here's what it says: "Adhere to the Google
> > Maps terms and conditions and don't trace data into Open Street
> > Map..".
>
> The context is important.
>
> Website content:
> > It's been a year since I've done anything with Google WMS, but I still
> > get so much hate-mail about this service.. Here's what they want me to
> > say.. "Adhere to the Google Maps terms and conditions and don't trace
> > data into Open Street Map.."
>
> So it's in quotation marks and it isn't at all presented as the author's
> personal statement, it's what people sending "hate-mail" want him to
> say. Putting that advice in the mouths of senders of hate-mail certainly
> isn't what you do if you want to honestly want to warn people, is it?
>
> To the same effect, he could have written "just ignore the naggers with
> their legalities and trace away". It's only insignificantly more subtle
> the way he phrases it.
>
Thank you for bringing back the context Tobias.
More context: The message is also at the bottom of the page, after scrolling
past the instructions on how to add it to JOSM. At the top of the page he
mentions OSM. If he was nice (unlike hate mail senders) then he could write
one sentence: Although this works with OSM software it should not be
uploaded to the OSM database.

That would certainly avoid me sending him hate mail (not that I actually
would) and think that he respected OSM so I'd give him (and his work) more
respect.

-- 
Gregory
o...@livingwithdragons.com
http://www.livingwithdragons.com
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Re: [OSM-talk] ANNOUNCEMENT: maxspeed map

[Tim Litwiller]

On 03/28/2010 11:44 AM, Florian Lohoff wrote:
> I never sent an announcement here so i think its time do so. I have built
> ...
> Here is the link:
>
> http://maxspeed.osm.lab.rfc822.org
>
> Please also relay to the local mailinglists.
>
> Flo
>

Very Nice!   When will it fully support mph speeds in the U.S.A ?
ie: we tag "maxspeed=65 mph" rather than "maxspeed=100" to get ~ the 
same highway speed.
in the U.S.A. the speed limit signs are a white rectangle  higher than 
they are wide
see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_speed_limits.svg
for examples.


Thanks


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Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2010/3/30 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason :
> I'm not breaking Google's TOS. Just because I give you hammer that
> make me responsible for you bludgeoning someone to death with it.


well, give a kid a gun and you ARE responsible (at least partially)
for what happens. There's to decide whether distributing instructions
and code for tracing from Googlemaps into OSM (JOSM is still mostly an
OSM-app) is more like a hammer or more like a gun ;-)

IMHO he could at least put the disclaimer on top of the page.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] www.openaddresses.org BETA launched

[Cédric MOULLET]

Yes, we have adapted that.
Cédric

On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 4:26 PM, Emilie Laffray wrote:

>
>
> On 30 March 2010 16:13, Richard Weait  wrote:
>
>> 2010/3/30 Cédric MOULLET :
>> > Hi,
>> > It's not Cédric's project, but the project of a community (composed of
>> > individuals, companies and universities) initiated in 2007 ;-) (see
>> press
>> > release:
>> >
>> http://code.google.com/p/openaddresses/wiki/Release_BETA_PressRelease#EN:_OpenAddresses_.org,_a_community_web_site_for_the_management
>> ).
>> > But, I still can answer.
>>
>> Dear Cédric,
>>
>> OpenAdresses is an interesting idea as a simpler interface for address
>> data.  The intent to synchronize the data with OSM makes sense.
>>
>> The current situation with OSM data cc-by-sa and OpenAddresses data
>> cc-by seems broken.  Shouldn't the licenses be synchronized so that
>> the data can be synchronized?
>>
>> OpenAddresses is failing the share-alike obligation.  Do you
>> understand that some will see that as a serious problem.  This issue
>> will persist when OSM upgrades to the ODbL license.
>>
>> Can you bring this problem to the attention of the OpenAddresses
>> community and resolve it?
>>
>>
> Hello,
>
> Cedric has replied on the French mailing list. He is aware of the licence
> issue and he is going to be changing the licence to be compatible with OSM.
> I am sure it will happen very soon as he is very responsive.
>
> Emilie Laffray
>
> ___
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>
>


-- 
Welcome to my world: http://www.cedricmoullet.com/
My Linked In profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cedricmoullet
Twitter: http://twitter.com/cedricmoullet
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Re: [OSM-talk] Project of the Week 2010Mar28 - Swimming in data

[John Smith]

2010/3/31 Grant Slater :
> Do it properly. Not using some dirty hack. :-)

The problem is everything except the coastlines update within minutes,
so now people assume everything does and when it doesn't they complain
on mailing lists or diary entries or 

Realistically it's no more of a hack than generating shape files to
get around rendering problems with broken coast lines.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Project of the Week 2010Mar28 - Swimming in data

[Grant Slater]

2010/3/30 John Smith :
> anything tagged natural=coastline only updates intermitently, I'm not
> sure if there is a regular schedule or not, however shape files are
> produced from the coastline segments and so on and so forth.
>

Coastlines updating is currently a manual process for tile.osm.org

Coastline Checker is much more frequently updated:
http://coastline.openstreetmap.nl/ (see update line on site)
Details on wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Coastline_error_checker

> tagging it natural=land will update much faster, but that is
> problematic in the longer term...

Do it properly. Not using some dirty hack. :-)

/ Grant

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Re: [OSM-talk] Project of the Week 2010Mar28 - Swimming in data

[John Smith]

2010/3/30 Iván Sánchez Ortega :
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/536255
>
> ... but the problem persists.

anything tagged natural=coastline only updates intermitently, I'm not
sure if there is a regular schedule or not, however shape files are
produced from the coastline segments and so on and so forth.

tagging it natural=land will update much faster, but that is
problematic in the longer term...

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?

[Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason]

On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 13:04, Tobias Knerr  wrote:
> To the same effect, he could have written "just ignore the naggers with
> their legalities and trace away". It's only insignificantly more subtle
> the way he phrases it.

Could have should have. Let's not forget the context here. Someone has
written a useful piece of software *in his free time* for *free* which
you and others to use *if you want to*, if not: don't use it.

If he doesn't feel like plastering legal warnings over his webpage
that's really really his business. I don't think anyone's in a
position to feel self-justified in speculations about his intent.

I don't mean to single you out but this sort of outlook is why he's
getting hate E-Mail in the first place.

Let us recall the ancient proverb: Life sucks, get a helmet.

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Re: [OSM-talk] www.openaddresses.org BETA launched

[jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com]

On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 4:13 PM, Richard Weait  wrote:
> 2010/3/30 Cédric MOULLET :
> OpenAddresses is failing the share-alike obligation.  Do you
> understand that some will see that as a serious problem.  This issue
> will persist when OSM upgrades to the ODbL license.

That is basically like taking gpled code(sharealike) and reusing it in
a BSD project (attribution)
people have been roasted for less.

mike

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Re: [OSM-talk] www.openaddresses.org BETA launched

[Emilie Laffray]

On 30 March 2010 16:13, Richard Weait  wrote:

> 2010/3/30 Cédric MOULLET :
> > Hi,
> > It's not Cédric's project, but the project of a community (composed of
> > individuals, companies and universities) initiated in 2007 ;-) (see press
> > release:
> >
> http://code.google.com/p/openaddresses/wiki/Release_BETA_PressRelease#EN:_OpenAddresses_.org,_a_community_web_site_for_the_management
> ).
> > But, I still can answer.
>
> Dear Cédric,
>
> OpenAdresses is an interesting idea as a simpler interface for address
> data.  The intent to synchronize the data with OSM makes sense.
>
> The current situation with OSM data cc-by-sa and OpenAddresses data
> cc-by seems broken.  Shouldn't the licenses be synchronized so that
> the data can be synchronized?
>
> OpenAddresses is failing the share-alike obligation.  Do you
> understand that some will see that as a serious problem.  This issue
> will persist when OSM upgrades to the ODbL license.
>
> Can you bring this problem to the attention of the OpenAddresses
> community and resolve it?
>
>
Hello,

Cedric has replied on the French mailing list. He is aware of the licence
issue and he is going to be changing the licence to be compatible with OSM.
I am sure it will happen very soon as he is very responsive.

Emilie Laffray
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Re: [OSM-talk] Some guidelines on Africover data?

[Joseph Reeves]

Great, thanks Grant,

Good to see that my line of thinking was pretty much the same as
yours; I just wanted to double check on consensus before inadvertently
wrecking anything.

Cheers, Joseph



On 30 March 2010 13:25, Grant Slater  wrote:
> Hi Joseph,
>
> I've been cleaning up some of the Africover, mostly bound within the
> DRC borders.
>
> The import seems to have been fairly messy.
>
> 
>> There is no source tag on the data that exists, only an AUTO_ID tag;
>> an example way can be seen in 37424303 [3], although many more exist.
>> I'm guessing that the AUTO_ID refers to a Africover reference system
>> that has survived the import, whilst OSM specific tags need to be
>> applied.
>>
>> Is there any reference available for telling what such ways should be
>> tagged as? I'm worried that some may be rivers, in some cases possible
>> dupes [4]. With a list to refer to, could ways such as this be tagged
>> as highway:road or waterway:river, source:Africover when found?
>> Leaving the AUTO_IDs would seem to be a good idea for now.
>>
>
> I generally replace the AUTO_ID with a highway = road. The AUTO_ID is
> now worthless data to have in the OSM system, we have moved on from
> the original import. I'd say add source=Africover on the ways if you
> like. Best to strip it on nodes. The amount of GPS (GPX) data coverage
> is improving, especially in Southern Africa, so always compare. I
> always give existing data preference over Africover. If the Africover
> data feels VERY wrong, I think it is best to remove it rather than
> disrupt future (local) mapping efforts.
>
> Some of the ways also seem to be railways. Many Central & East African
> railways are being revived due to renewed interest in Africa's mineral
> wealth and Chinese interest.
>
> I tag with brain activated :-) Even Landsat helps. Some major African
> cities do have Yahoo! aerial imagery.
>
> Regards
>  Grant
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] www.openaddresses.org BETA launched

[Richard Weait]

2010/3/30 Cédric MOULLET :
> Hi,
> It's not Cédric's project, but the project of a community (composed of
> individuals, companies and universities) initiated in 2007 ;-) (see press
> release:
> http://code.google.com/p/openaddresses/wiki/Release_BETA_PressRelease#EN:_OpenAddresses_.org,_a_community_web_site_for_the_management).
> But, I still can answer.

Dear Cédric,

OpenAdresses is an interesting idea as a simpler interface for address
data.  The intent to synchronize the data with OSM makes sense.

The current situation with OSM data cc-by-sa and OpenAddresses data
cc-by seems broken.  Shouldn't the licenses be synchronized so that
the data can be synchronized?

OpenAddresses is failing the share-alike obligation.  Do you
understand that some will see that as a serious problem.  This issue
will persist when OSM upgrades to the ODbL license.

Can you bring this problem to the attention of the OpenAddresses
community and resolve it?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Tobias Knerr wrote:
> So it's in quotation marks and it isn't at all presented as the author's
> personal statement, it's what people sending "hate-mail" want him to
> say. Putting that advice in the mouths of senders of hate-mail certainly
> isn't what you do if you want to honestly want to warn people, is it?

Are you trying to deny him his freedom of expression?

Is he not allowed to speak his mind?

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] Project of the Week 2010Mar28 - Swimming in data

[Iván Sánchez Ortega]

El 30/03/2010 15:10, andrzej zaborowski escribió:
>> And while in the process: have a look at the islands of Ibiza and
>> Formentera. These landmasses have vanished.
>
> I have argued on the talk-es list that it might be caused by the
> addition of place=island to the coast line on Mar 19.  I have not
> removed the tag because I think the renderer should probably allow
> that.

Thinking just that, I removed the place=island tag from every piece of 
coastline and made a relation out of all the pieces of coastline:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/536255

... but the problem persists.


Would a coastline expert enlighten us all?

-- 
Iván Sánchez Ortega 

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Re: [OSM-talk] Project of the Week 2010Mar28 - Swimming in data

[andrzej zaborowski]

On 28 March 2010 08:00, Maarten Deen  wrote:
> Richard Weait wrote:
>> Many of the coastlines in OSM came from an import of the PGS coastline
>> data.  It was a fantastic benefit to be able to add this coastline
>> data to OSM, and we're better off having had it.  And there are many
>> places that have aerial imagery that is now good enough to improve on
>> PGS coastlines.  So that is the project of the week for 28 March,
>> 2010, check your favorite bit of coastline and improve what you can
>> with overhead imagery.
>
> And while in the process: have a look at the islands of Ibiza and
> Formentera. These landmasses have vanished.
> 

I have argued on the talk-es list that it might be caused by the
addition of place=island to the coast line on Mar 19.  I have not
removed the tag because I think the renderer should probably allow
that.

(http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/10316103)

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?

[Tobias Knerr]

Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:
> Did you read the website? Here's what it says: "Adhere to the Google
> Maps terms and conditions and don't trace data into Open Street
> Map..".

The context is important.

Website content:
> It's been a year since I've done anything with Google WMS, but I still
> get so much hate-mail about this service.. Here's what they want me to
> say.. "Adhere to the Google Maps terms and conditions and don't trace
> data into Open Street Map.."

So it's in quotation marks and it isn't at all presented as the author's
personal statement, it's what people sending "hate-mail" want him to
say. Putting that advice in the mouths of senders of hate-mail certainly
isn't what you do if you want to honestly want to warn people, is it?

To the same effect, he could have written "just ignore the naggers with
their legalities and trace away". It's only insignificantly more subtle
the way he phrases it.

Tobias Knerr

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?

[John Smith]

On 30 March 2010 22:15, Someoneelse  wrote:
> Well - there may be some jurisdiction out there dumb enough to make a
> violation of some Ts & Cs an infringement of some law or other.
> Unlikely, but possible, and dafter laws do get passed from time to time,
> so "definitely not" is probably overstating it a tad.

They tried it in the US after a girl committed suicide due to misuse
of Facebook or similar sites... I think the ruling has since been
repealed...

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Re: [OSM-talk] Some guidelines on Africover data?

[Grant Slater]

Hi Joseph,

I've been cleaning up some of the Africover, mostly bound within the
DRC borders.

The import seems to have been fairly messy.


> There is no source tag on the data that exists, only an AUTO_ID tag;
> an example way can be seen in 37424303 [3], although many more exist.
> I'm guessing that the AUTO_ID refers to a Africover reference system
> that has survived the import, whilst OSM specific tags need to be
> applied.
>
> Is there any reference available for telling what such ways should be
> tagged as? I'm worried that some may be rivers, in some cases possible
> dupes [4]. With a list to refer to, could ways such as this be tagged
> as highway:road or waterway:river, source:Africover when found?
> Leaving the AUTO_IDs would seem to be a good idea for now.
>

I generally replace the AUTO_ID with a highway = road. The AUTO_ID is
now worthless data to have in the OSM system, we have moved on from
the original import. I'd say add source=Africover on the ways if you
like. Best to strip it on nodes. The amount of GPS (GPX) data coverage
is improving, especially in Southern Africa, so always compare. I
always give existing data preference over Africover. If the Africover
data feels VERY wrong, I think it is best to remove it rather than
disrupt future (local) mapping efforts.

Some of the ways also seem to be railways. Many Central & East African
railways are being revived due to renewed interest in Africa's mineral
wealth and Chinese interest.

I tag with brain activated :-) Even Landsat helps. Some major African
cities do have Yahoo! aerial imagery.

Regards
 Grant

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?

[John Smith]

On 30 March 2010 22:10, andrzej zaborowski  wrote:
> people do.  And if they send that guy a C&D he'll be responsible of
> ceasing to distribute the tiles as well as repair damage caused (or at

He's not distributing a program that breaks their TOS since he's not
directly doing anything, as others have pointed you have to download
the software and use it yourself to break google ToS...

> least stop damage happening) to Google if they say so, which may
> include informing all people who downloaded the tiles, all people who
> downloaded OSM data created by tracing over them, then their

People shouldn't be uploading data from sources it's not allowed to,
just like you shouldn't shoot people, but it's legal in a lot of
places to trade firearms, just because you buy a gun doesn't mean you
can do what you like with it.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?

[John Smith]

On 30 March 2010 22:16, John Smith  wrote:
> People shouldn't be uploading data from sources it's not allowed to,

They shouldn't upload data they don't have permission to upload...

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?

[Someoneelse]

Ian Dees wrote:
> We need to be careful about our words. Tracing data into OSM from any  
> source could be a violation of the terms of use of the service, but it  
> is definitely not illegal. 

Well - there may be some jurisdiction out there dumb enough to make a 
violation of some Ts & Cs an infringement of some law or other. 
Unlikely, but possible, and dafter laws do get passed from time to time, 
so "definitely not" is probably overstating it a tad.

(sorry to play Captain Obvious)


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Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?

[andrzej zaborowski]

On 30 March 2010 14:10, andrzej zaborowski  wrote:
> On 30 March 2010 13:27, John Smith  wrote:
>> That doesn't make something illegal and google are free to send him a
>> C&D if they feel up to it, but that's civil contract law.
>
> Ok, so it's not automatically a crime but it's still fair to say it
> isn't legal if you take obeying the TOS as a requirement which most
> people do.  And if they send that guy a C&D he'll be responsible of
> ceasing to distribute the tiles as well as repair damage caused (or at
> least stop damage happening) to Google if they say so, which may
> include informing all people who downloaded the tiles, all people who
> downloaded OSM data created by tracing over them, then their
> customers, etc etc., and if he can't do that then the court decides
> what he has to do.

Oops, he's not redistributing the tiles, I misunderstood GoogleWMS as
an actual WMS he hosts...

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?

[John Smith]

On 30 March 2010 21:53, simone gadenz  wrote:
> I dropped the message to the list because for me was obvious the service was 
> violating the term of Google's license but i was not sure it was illegal. In 
> any case I was worried of the implication for the OSM. Can this service be a 
> problem for the OSM community and in case Is OSM able to cope with this 
> situation to avoid future lawsuits?

Some think copying names from a street directory might be harmful to
OSM, but because copyright and other laws around the world aren't
harmonised there is no black and white answer to this, nor will there
ever be, what is legal or allowed now may not in a year from now.

Some people however take a very hard line on what may cause harm to
OSM, for example I was told I wasn't able to use google maps for
navigation purposes while collecting GPS traces, but this makes as
much sense as anyone using a street directory for navigation is
violating copyright.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?

[andrzej zaborowski]

On 30 March 2010 13:27, John Smith  wrote:
> That doesn't make something illegal and google are free to send him a
> C&D if they feel up to it, but that's civil contract law.

Ok, so it's not automatically a crime but it's still fair to say it
isn't legal if you take obeying the TOS as a requirement which most
people do.  And if they send that guy a C&D he'll be responsible of
ceasing to distribute the tiles as well as repair damage caused (or at
least stop damage happening) to Google if they say so, which may
include informing all people who downloaded the tiles, all people who
downloaded OSM data created by tracing over them, then their
customers, etc etc., and if he can't do that then the court decides
what he has to do.

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?

[Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason]

On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 11:53, simone gadenz  wrote:
> I dropped the message to the list because for me was obvious the service was 
> violating the term of Google's license but i was not sure it was illegal. In 
> any case I was worried of the implication for the OSM. Can this service be a 
> problem for the OSM community and in case Is OSM able to cope with this 
> situation to avoid future lawsuits?

What "service"? It's a program that /you/ download to /your/ computer
and run on your own. He's not breaking any law by providing you with
this program.

Just because some company writes a TOS that doesn't mean they can stop
anyone writing programs that interface with their websites, but of
course they're fully within their rights to stop anyone accessing
them.

I'm sure Google's TOS say something about automatic downloads. If I
provide you with this program:

#!/bin/sh
while true; do
wget "http://google.com/search?q=$RANDOM";;
done

I'm not breaking Google's TOS. Just because I give you hammer that
make me responsible for you bludgeoning someone to death with it.

As for how we should "cope with this situation" we should do what
we've always done: Ask people nicely not to trace from proprietary
maps and hope they don't. Ultimately that's all we can do.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?

[Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason]

On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 10:38, Gregory  wrote:
> I think the comment he has put about hate mail is really bad though, it
> makes OSM out to be a bad project/community even though it created JOSM.
> Would it really hurt him to put a notice about copyright to say check out
> the Google license if you make data from the maps and it is not suitable to
> upload to OSM.

Did you read the website? Here's what it says: "Adhere to the Google
Maps terms and conditions and don't trace data into Open Street
Map..".

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?

[simone gadenz]

I dropped the message to the list because for me was obvious the service was 
violating the term of Google's license but i was not sure it was illegal. In 
any case I was worried of the implication for the OSM. Can this service be a 
problem for the OSM community and in case Is OSM able to cope with this 
situation to avoid future lawsuits?


On Mar 30, 2010, at 1:32 PM, Ian Dees wrote:

> On Mar 30, 2010, at 6:08 AM, andrzej zaborowski   
> wrote:
> 
>> On 30 March 2010 10:53, Gregory  wrote:
>>> He could keep the page and program up there but
>>> should put warnings
>> 
>> I don't think it's even legal for him to have this service? Doesn't
>> google TOS prohibit both storing the tiles and republishing outside
>> google's own api?
>> 
> 
> We need to be careful about our words. Tracing data into OSM from any  
> source could be a violation of the terms of use of the service, but it  
> is definitely not illegal. The cops do not yet have the power to come  
> arrest you for a terms of use violation in any jurisdiction I know  
> about. The company could sue you or OSM (thus why we discourage it  
> strongly), but it's not illegal.
> 
> I think a newbie coming to OSM that sees "it's illegal!!!" might be  
> put off by the potential for police action since.
> 
> Of course as soon as I send this someone from Europe will tell me  
> their database/data collections law applies, but I don't think it  
> does. You're still creating a derivative work, not copying someone's  
> collection of data.
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?

[Ian Dees]

On Mar 30, 2010, at 6:08 AM, andrzej zaborowski   
wrote:

> On 30 March 2010 10:53, Gregory  wrote:
>> He could keep the page and program up there but
>> should put warnings
>
> I don't think it's even legal for him to have this service? Doesn't
> google TOS prohibit both storing the tiles and republishing outside
> google's own api?
>

We need to be careful about our words. Tracing data into OSM from any  
source could be a violation of the terms of use of the service, but it  
is definitely not illegal. The cops do not yet have the power to come  
arrest you for a terms of use violation in any jurisdiction I know  
about. The company could sue you or OSM (thus why we discourage it  
strongly), but it's not illegal.

I think a newbie coming to OSM that sees "it's illegal!!!" might be  
put off by the potential for police action since.

Of course as soon as I send this someone from Europe will tell me  
their database/data collections law applies, but I don't think it  
does. You're still creating a derivative work, not copying someone's  
collection of data.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?

[John Smith]

On 30 March 2010 21:08, andrzej zaborowski  wrote:
> I don't think it's even legal for him to have this service? Doesn't

As someone else pointed out, there is nothing illegal about the code,
it might be against their terms and services to use it but that's
contract law, not criminal law.

> google TOS prohibit both storing the tiles and republishing outside
> google's own api?

That doesn't make something illegal and google are free to send him a
C&D if they feel up to it, but that's civil contract law.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?

[andrzej zaborowski]

On 30 March 2010 10:53, Gregory  wrote:
> He could keep the page and program up there but
> should put warnings

I don't think it's even legal for him to have this service? Doesn't
google TOS prohibit both storing the tiles and republishing outside
google's own api?

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] www.openaddresses.org BETA launched

[Jukka Rahkonen]

Cédric MOULLET  gmail.com> writes:

> 
> 
> Dear OSM community,
> 
> After www.openaddresses.ch and www.openaddresses.at, www.openaddresses.org has
been launched to collect worldwide localized addresses.

The Mapfish application is a pleasure to use and the threshold to start adding
data is low because of fixed schema for attributes and because there is no
registration needed. There are for sure people who will find something negative
from each of these aspects.

-Jukka Rahkonen-




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Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?

[Gregory]

On 30 March 2010 02:36, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason  wrote:
>
> Is it legal to?
>
>  * Use it in JOSM: Yes
>  * Edit data based on it: Yes
>  * Upload it to the OSM servers: No
>
>  JOSM has the capability to use any server you want (or none at all),
> not all servers are run at *.openstreetmap.org.
>
I didn't think of that. I know one could save it as .osm and then feed it
into a renderer or other converting script.


> But really, don't send people hate mail just because they enable users
> to do something non-free with OSM tools. I'm sure the FSF doesn't send
> people who write non-free programs with Emacs hate mail :)
>
I think the comment he has put about hate mail is really bad though, it
makes OSM out to be a bad project/community even though it created JOSM.
Would it really hurt him to put a notice about copyright to say check out
the Google license if you make data from the maps and it is not suitable to
upload to OSM.

Hmm, I suppose if you do click the "upload to OSM" button then you need a
username & password, at which point you look at what OSM is (and I think a
comment about acceptable data is given near registration?). I was feeling
the button was too easy to use, because my password is saved and I never get
prompted to have an account.

-- 
Gregory
o...@livingwithdragons.com
http://www.livingwithdragons.com
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Re: [OSM-talk] www.openaddresses.org BETA launched

[andrzej zaborowski]

2010/3/30 Shaun McDonald :
> Why not use OAuth to enter the data straight back into OSM?

This would make sense, but I can see a couple of small technical
issues that would need to be solved:

* They don't have addr:interpolations and just show the end nodes of
an addr:interpolation.  When someone deletes one end on that site,
they'd get a conflict.
* The city field is obligatory why I believe OSM chose to use the
admin boundaries for that.  So maybe the site should use admin
bounndaries too, and only save the "city" field's value when it's
different from that derived from the boundaries.  Maybe this would
prevent people on their site adding the city name to all addresses
I've tagged in my city.  I like how the maxspeed map uses the
boundaries.

On the other hand maybe they should have a field for "parish",
"county", "province" that an address is in, so like flickr it would be
possible to derive missing boundaries from entered data.

Can you relicense a CC-BY-SA 2 content so that it cannot be imported
back?  I thought the SA would prevent any such trick.

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?

[Iván Sánchez Ortega]

El 30/03/2010 11:36, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason escribió:
> I'm sure the FSF doesn't send people who write non-free programs with
> Emacs hate mail :)

You should attend a lecture by Richard Stallman :-P


-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?

[Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason]

On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 08:28, simone gadenz  wrote:
> I have just come across this WMS service providing google maps background for 
> OSM editing. Is it legal?
>
> http://www.peterdamen.com/GoogleWMS/

Is it legal to?

 * Use it in JOSM: Yes
 * Edit data based on it: Yes
 * Upload it to the OSM servers: No

I've used this extension with good results for producing derived work
from Google Maps + OSM for my own use, of course I didn't upload it to
OSM once I was done.

JOSM has the capability to use any server you want (or none at all),
not all servers are run at *.openstreetmap.org.

As OSM becomes more popular more people are going to use the .osm
format and editing tools built for OSM for non-OSM uses.

It would be useful if we could accommodate these uses by e.g. making
plugins like these part of the official JOSM plugin directory. Of
course there would also have to be other changes like some way of
having WMS layers register that they're unsuitable for being uploaded
to OSM and a way of marking data as having been edited with some given
WMS as a backdrop.

But really, don't send people hate mail just because they enable users
to do something non-free with OSM tools. I'm sure the FSF doesn't send
people who write non-free programs with Emacs hate mail :)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?

[Jean-Marc Liotier]

simone gadenz wrote:
> I have just come across this WMS service providing google maps
> background for OSM editing. Is it legal?
> 
> http://www.peterdamen.com/GoogleWMS/

No. You must not use Google as a source for OSM. This would be a breach 
of Google's terms of use, it would taint OSM's data and it would expose 
OSM to liability. Please don't do it. As the Google Maps WMS Server's 
administrator himselfs says : "Adhere to the Google Maps terms and 
conditions and don't trace data into Open Street Map".



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Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?

[Gregory]

Definitely not. See the last note on the page:
It's been a year since I've done anything with Google WMS, but I still get
so much hate-mail about this service.. Here's what they want me to say..
"Adhere to the Google Maps terms and conditions and don't trace data into
Open Street Map.."

Yet in his instructions he is clearly making the primary aim to use it in
JOSM and trace information. He could keep the page and program up there but
should put warnings (especially at the top of the page) to say it is
for experimentation or personal(private) use and not to upload to the OSM
servers.

On 30 March 2010 01:28, simone gadenz  wrote:

> I have just come across this WMS service providing google maps background
> for OSM editing. Is it legal?
>
> http://www.peterdamen.com/GoogleWMS/
>
> Cheers
>
> S
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Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?

[Iván Sánchez Ortega]

El 30/03/2010 10:28, simone gadenz escribió:
> I have just come across this WMS service providing google maps
> background for OSM editing. Is it legal?
>
> http://www.peterdamen.com/GoogleWMS/

Scroll down and you'll find this piece of text:

"
It's been a year since I've done anything with Google WMS, but I still
get so much hate-mail about this service.. Here's what they want me to
say.. "Adhere to the Google Maps terms and conditions and don't trace
data into Open Street Map.."
"


That should answer your question.

Cheers,
-- 
Iván Sánchez Ortega 

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[OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?

[simone gadenz]

I have just come across this WMS service providing google maps background for 
OSM editing. Is it legal?

http://www.peterdamen.com/GoogleWMS/

Cheers

S
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Re: [OSM-talk] www.openaddresses.org BETA launched

[jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com]

I found this mentioned on legal, the data that is added to
openaddresses is with a different license than osm,
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/

I guess that they are dropping the sharealike clause on the data they
import, this is questionable. If the data I contribute to osm is
sharealike, how can  they just drop the clause of that?

mike


On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 9:57 AM, maning sambale
 wrote:
> Do all addresses added here are also added in OSM? How often is it updated?
>
> 2010/3/30 Cédric MOULLET :
>> Hi,
>> It's not Cédric's project, but the project of a community (composed of
>> individuals, companies and universities) initiated in 2007 ;-) (see press
>> release:
>> http://code.google.com/p/openaddresses/wiki/Release_BETA_PressRelease#EN:_OpenAddresses_.org,_a_community_web_site_for_the_management).
>> But, I still can answer.
>>
>> First of all, the goal is to synchronize data with OSM, so at the end, we
>> should find the same data in OA and OSM, but, OA also aims to provide
>> services (http://code.google.com/p/openaddresses/wiki/RESTService).
>> OA has also a geocoder in its roadmap, so It would be fantastic to
>> collaborate with Mike's project.
>>
>> Hope this gives some valuable information,
>> Thanks for your interest,
>> Cédric
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 9:35 AM, John Smith 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> 2010/3/30 Shaun McDonald :
>>> > Why not use OAuth to enter the data straight back into OSM?
>>>
>>> Dunno about Cédric's project, but the basis of Mike's project was a
>>> repository of street addresses we don't have lat/lon for, but we have
>>> street addresses for things like POIs...
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Welcome to my world: http://www.cedricmoullet.com/
>> My Linked In profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cedricmoullet
>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/cedricmoullet
>>
>> ___
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>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> cheers,
> maning
> --
> "Freedom is still the most radical idea of all" -N.Branden
> wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/
> blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/
> --
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] www.openaddresses.org BETA launched

[maning sambale]

Do all addresses added here are also added in OSM? How often is it updated?

2010/3/30 Cédric MOULLET :
> Hi,
> It's not Cédric's project, but the project of a community (composed of
> individuals, companies and universities) initiated in 2007 ;-) (see press
> release:
> http://code.google.com/p/openaddresses/wiki/Release_BETA_PressRelease#EN:_OpenAddresses_.org,_a_community_web_site_for_the_management).
> But, I still can answer.
>
> First of all, the goal is to synchronize data with OSM, so at the end, we
> should find the same data in OA and OSM, but, OA also aims to provide
> services (http://code.google.com/p/openaddresses/wiki/RESTService).
> OA has also a geocoder in its roadmap, so It would be fantastic to
> collaborate with Mike's project.
>
> Hope this gives some valuable information,
> Thanks for your interest,
> Cédric
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 9:35 AM, John Smith 
> wrote:
>>
>> 2010/3/30 Shaun McDonald :
>> > Why not use OAuth to enter the data straight back into OSM?
>>
>> Dunno about Cédric's project, but the basis of Mike's project was a
>> repository of street addresses we don't have lat/lon for, but we have
>> street addresses for things like POIs...
>
>
>
> --
> Welcome to my world: http://www.cedricmoullet.com/
> My Linked In profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cedricmoullet
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/cedricmoullet
>
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--
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Re: [OSM-talk] www.openaddresses.org BETA launched

[Gaz Davidson]

2010/3/30 Cédric MOULLET :
> Don't hesitate to add your own address, the address of your friends and of
> the friends of your friends ;-)

I'm sure that everyone on this list has already done this in OSM... I
hope you'll be using that data, my fingers are sore from typing so
many postcodes into OSM, FreeThePostCode and PostcodeDB!

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Re: [OSM-talk] www.openaddresses.org BETA launched

[Cédric MOULLET]

Hi,
It's not Cédric's project, but the project of a community (composed of
individuals, companies and universities) initiated in 2007 ;-) (see press
release:
http://code.google.com/p/openaddresses/wiki/Release_BETA_PressRelease#EN:_OpenAddresses_.org,_a_community_web_site_for_the_management).
But, I still can answer.

First of all, the goal is to synchronize data with OSM, so at the end, we
should find the same data in OA and OSM, but, OA also aims to provide
services (http://code.google.com/p/openaddresses/wiki/RESTService).
OA has also a geocoder in its roadmap, so It would be fantastic to
collaborate with Mike's project.

Hope this gives some valuable information,
Thanks for your interest,
Cédric


On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 9:35 AM, John Smith wrote:

> 2010/3/30 Shaun McDonald :
> > Why not use OAuth to enter the data straight back into OSM?
>
> Dunno about Cédric's project, but the basis of Mike's project was a
> repository of street addresses we don't have lat/lon for, but we have
> street addresses for things like POIs...
>



-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] www.openaddresses.org BETA launched

[John Smith]

2010/3/30 Shaun McDonald :
> Why not use OAuth to enter the data straight back into OSM?

Dunno about Cédric's project, but the basis of Mike's project was a
repository of street addresses we don't have lat/lon for, but we have
street addresses for things like POIs...

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Re: [OSM-talk] www.openaddresses.org BETA launched

[Shaun McDonald]

Why not use OAuth to enter the data straight back into OSM?

Shaun

On 30 Mar 2010, at 05:05, Cédric MOULLET wrote:

> Dear OSM community,
> After www.openaddresses.ch and www.openaddresses.at, www.openaddresses.org 
> has been launched to collect worldwide localized addresses. This initiative 
> of several people, universities and companies of central Europe aims to 
> provide a web portail for the management of free and open geolocated 
> addresses. 
> 
> One goal of www.openaddresses.org is to collaborate nicely with 
> www.openstreetmap.org by exchanging data and providing additional services 
> (http://code.google.com/p/openaddresses/wiki/RESTService). However, since 
> localized addresses are very specific, we consider that it is appropriate to 
> have a dedicated platform only for addresses. From the original projects, the 
> data collected base on Google map has simply be removed in order to avoid any 
> license issues.
> 
> Don't hesitate to add your own address, the address of your friends and of 
> the friends of your friends ;-) If you'd like to be part of this effort, you 
> can also provide address listing, orthophoto or whatever data that can be 
> useful. We are also looking for persons willing to participate to the 
> development, the translation, the system administration, the testing, the 
> communication and so on ...
> 
> You'll find more information in the following documents:
> 
> Frequently asked questions
> User guide
> Wiki
> Discussion group
> Thanks for your interest.
> 
> For OpenAddresses, Cédric Moullet
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] POI-searching application

[Shaun McDonald]

Have you tried TrackMyJourney?
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Software/Mobile_phones for some others that 
you may want to try.

Shaun

On 30 Mar 2010, at 05:03, John F. Eldredge wrote:

> Does anyone know of an application for BlackBerry phones that allows one 
> to search for OSM POIs of a certain type within a certain distance from 
> a given location, or alternately of a web site that allows such 
> searches?  I know of some sites that allow one to search for a POI by 
> name, but I am looking for the type of search where you know what type 
> of POI you are interested in, but not its name or exact location.  This 
> would allow a version of  the location-based searches that various 
> commercial applications and services (such as Google) offer.  Ideally, 
> you could supply the content of more than one tag, so as to narrow down 
> the results.
> 
> I have a mapping program on my BlackBerry, BigTinCan Mapper, that will 
> display OSM tiles.  Unfortunately, it doesn't have the type of search 
> capability I am looking for, and most POIs only show up at maximum zoom, 
> where only a small geographical area is visible on-screen.  This makes 
> it not particularly practical for large-scale POI searches.
> 
> -- 
> John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
> "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
> than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
> 
> 
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