Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis

[Paul Norman]

> From: Simon Poole [mailto:si...@poole.ch]
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis
> 
> 
> There are some clear downsides to our current "business model" for
> example our main "brand" is not exposed as much as if we were running
> 4square, MapQuest Open etc., and on the other hand interesting services
> for end users that exist don't profit from the OpenStreetMap label as
> they could do.
> 
> The important part is to understand that the current lack of end-user
> services is not because of lack of knowledge, technology or any thing
> similar, but by design.

I believe both clickable POIs and routing are on the to-do list but have
suffered from a lack of people/time although keep in mind clickable POIs
means different things to different people.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis

[Simon Poole]

Am 09.07.2013 09:13, schrieb Paul Norman:

> I believe both clickable POIs and routing are on the to-do list but have
> suffered from a lack of people/time although keep in mind clickable POIs
> means different things to different people.
>
Yes, I pointed that out in my comment to the OPs blog post. The
expectations still need to be managed though, the way both features are
implemented in their current incarnations is clearly geared towards
contributors, not the general public.

Simon


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Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis

[Maarten Deen]

On 2013-07-09 09:20, Simon Poole wrote:

Am 09.07.2013 09:13, schrieb Paul Norman:

I believe both clickable POIs and routing are on the to-do list but 
have
suffered from a lack of people/time although keep in mind clickable 
POIs

means different things to different people.


Yes, I pointed that out in my comment to the OPs blog post. The
expectations still need to be managed though, the way both features 
are

implemented in their current incarnations is clearly geared towards
contributors, not the general public.


The problem with OSM is that with Google, Google maps is the go-to site 
to get everything: map, routing, information. With OSM it is not. And 
while it is perfectly clear that OSM has limited resources and will 
probably never be able to offer all services from one portal, it is the 
biggest downside we have at the moment.

I go to openstreetmap.org to see the map and/or search for places
I go to osrm.at to get car routing
I go to fietsrouteplanner-zuid.nl for bicycle routing in my 
neighborhood

I go to maps.cloudmade.com for general bicycle or walking routing
I go to opengastromap.de to get proper restaurant information 
(unfortunately Germany only)


It just is less userfriendly than having it all on one site.

Maarten


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Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 07/09/2013 09:36 AM, Maarten Deen wrote:

The problem with OSM is that with Google, Google maps is the go-to site
to get everything:


[...]


It just is less userfriendly than having it all on one site.


Then again, having all this offered by different people and not by one 
big corporate behemoth might also have advantages. If one day the people 
at fietsrouteplanner-zuid.nl make a business decision you don't like - 
say, they tune their parameters in a way you don't agree with, or 
display advertising, or require registration or whatnot - then you can 
use someone else's site (or, if one doesn't exist, someone else can with 
relative ease set up a site).


Let's not kid ourselves - even if we *were* to offer everything as a 
one-stop shop, we'd still have people with special interests whom we 
couldn't serve from the main site and for whom special third-party sites 
would be created, and it is in *those* where the value of OSM really 
becomes apparent.


The great thing about OSM is not that we might one day have a site where 
you can do everything that you can do on Google too; the great thing is 
that everyone can set up their *own* site where you can do something. 
And shouldn't we actively encourage that (by, perhaps, better 
integrating osm.org with third party sites) rather than building our 
very own corporate behemoth?


Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis

[Lester Caine]

Guillaume Pratte wrote:

I really like the OpenStreetMap project, and I dream to be able to use it as a 
primary map instead of Google Maps. I feel resolving these issues would bring 
me many steps closer to making that dream come true.

What do you all think? Do you also have showstoppers that prevent you to use 
OpenStreetMap as your primary and daily map?


Rather than answering each point individually I'll give a general reply of the 
way *I* think things want to move forward.


Openstreetmap has provided a base on which to build applications, and 'routing' 
is an area where there are some good routing engines available on-line using the 
'common' database. We are now looking to address the missing 'historic' data via 
openhistoricalmap with local groups looking to process material they have into a 
more common format that can be shared. That is the key here, sharing material.


Personally I have my own build of OSRM routing running locally so I can then 
look at adding my own local materiel since personally I do not like a few of the 
important directions currently generated by all of the current engines. And I 
can DO that which is the major difference between OSM and google/bing mapping!


The in thing at the moment is 'the cloud', but once again commercial enterprise 
has hijacked what should be another cooperation tool? While providing backup of 
our important data elsewhere on the system is a good use of the system, the bulk 
of unused processing power is based in our own computers, which with the 
increasing 'unlimited' bandwidths available could be used to perhaps render 
higher resolution tiles over night somewhere in the world? More practical here 
is the use of our local machines to run much as stand alone sat nav's do 
nowadays. We simply download a view of the local area along with routing data 
from another source on 'the cloud' and then don't need an internet connection to 
use that data. Important around here since current navigation has many blank 
areas as I loose mobile broadband completely. What is the point of our having to 
pay even for 3G when most of the time you can't even get a connection, and can't 
get at your 'centrally stored' data ;) And 4G is another joke, when it's only 
available were wireless hotspots provide a better cover?


I hope people are seeing where this is going? Do we want to replace google/bing 
... probably not ... even for world wide cover? Do we want to provide a much 
better service 'locally', yes, something that the likes of google/bing can't 
easily address? I'm running 'locus' on my tablet and phone. It's not prefect, 
but I can select a map source and a routing engine and even go off-line. All the 
tools are in place to do most of what we want, so the target now should be to 
improve 'distribution' so that we can pick up locally enhanced feeds easier and 
reduce the load on the 'main' map? My next problem is simply addressing the 
holes in my one use of OSM which is another discussion.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis

[Lester Caine]

Maarten Deen wrote:


The problem with OSM is that with Google, Google maps is the go-to site to get
everything: map, routing, information. With OSM it is not. And while it is
perfectly clear that OSM has limited resources and will probably never be able
to offer all services from one portal, it is the biggest downside we have at the
moment.
I go to openstreetmap.org to see the map and/or search for places
I go to osrm.at to get car routing
I go to fietsrouteplanner-zuid.nl for bicycle routing in my neighborhood
I go to maps.cloudmade.com for general bicycle or walking routing
I go to opengastromap.de to get proper restaurant information (unfortunately
Germany only)

It just is less userfriendly than having it all on one site.
But a local 'portal' which provides all your locally enhanced feeds could get 
around that problem?


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Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis

[Simon Poole]

Am 09.07.2013 09:36, schrieb Maarten Deen:
> .
> The problem with OSM is that with Google, Google maps is the go-to
> site to get everything: map, routing, information. With OSM it is not.
> And while it is perfectly clear that OSM has limited resources and
> will probably never be able to offer all services from one portal, it
> is the biggest downside we have at the moment.
> I go to openstreetmap.org to see the map and/or search for places
> I go to osrm.at to get car routing
> I go to fietsrouteplanner-zuid.nl for bicycle routing in my neighborhood
> I go to maps.cloudmade.com for general bicycle or walking routing
> I go to opengastromap.de to get proper restaurant information
> (unfortunately Germany only)
>
> It just is less userfriendly than having it all on one site.

It is a bit like Android vs. iOS with google in the role pf Apple :-)

And this is essentially what I was implying with my comments that we and
the OSM ecosystem can't/don't leverage the strength of the OpenStreetMap
brand.


Assuming that we don't want to change our modus operandi, one of the way
we might be able to improve things is for openstreetmap.org to have more
of a brokerage role in the OSM. While I have been mainly thinking about
this in the context of map tile and consulting providers, there is no
real reason why we couldn't do something along such lines for routing
services, search engines and so on.

One way this could work would be similar to umap tied to your OSM
account (umap actually already offers a lot of the functionality). So
you could choose and configure the map tiles you wanted to see on your
version of osm, which search engine to use and so one (and allow a way
to easily embed such a map on your web site). It would probably need
some minimum API/UI rules but not What is tricky is how to handle
commercial offerings (however they are financed directly or by ads), but
I think this could be worked out.


Simon


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Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis

[Lester Caine]

Frederik Ramm wrote:

The great thing about OSM is not that we might one day have a site where you can
do everything that you can do on Google too; the great thing is that everyone
can set up their *own* site where you can do something. And shouldn't we
actively encourage that (by, perhaps, better integrating osm.org with third
party sites) rather than building our very own corporate behemoth?


The short version of what I said 

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Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis

[Simon Poole]

My daughter came bouncing in to my office distracting me :-)

Am 09.07.2013 10:01, schrieb Simon Poole:

> It would probably need some minimum API/UI rules but not What is tricky 
> is how to handle commercial
offerings (however they are financed directly or by ads), but I think
this could be worked out.
should be

It would probably need some minimum API/UI rules but not too
restrictive. What is tricky ...



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[OSM-talk] Todo List

[Lester Caine]

Given the current thread on the role of OSM as a source I think this is possibly 
the right forum to post these notes.


I'm currently working through a move from my N900 phone augmented by a tomtom 
sat nav which has provided me with a usable 'in car' setup for a number of 
years. The N900 has died and while I can simply buy a replacement, Vodafone 
'owed' me an upgrade which I was probably paying for anyway, so I picked up an 
S4 since it runs Android 4.2 and the tablet I've been playing with has the same 
on it. First problem ... TomTom will not work with S4 for updates or hands free. 
S4's own hands free is adequate, but not nearly as good as I had. Moving 
forward, locus provides a tool to replace the TomTom navigation and it works 
reasonably well, but again not as 'safe' as the TomTom. I use the word 'safe' 
for a particular reason which is the major todo item. Currently all four of the 
routing engines locus accesses give a major problem on UK major road junctions.


The problem is that directions given for major junctions tend to be 'straight 
on' where the ACTUAL move is to take the slip road. This is where I am wondering 
if the 'global' nature of this is perhaps getting in the way? With driving on 
the left or right confusing things. Improving UK routing to handle major 
junctions safely is not something that would necessarily have the same 
requirements elsewhere? The micro-mapping discussion also comes in here with 
actual lane data making giving directions through a complex junction easier to 
generate. We don't allow 'tagging for the router', but in these cases creating 
data from nothing is causing a safety problem? I can see the same problem in 
many countries but requiring a different interpretation of the data hence what 
should we be doing to ensure that the various routing options do have the best 
data to provide 'safe' information?


There are a couple of other items on the todo list, but I have the material to 
work on them :)


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Re: [OSM-talk] Todo List

[Simon Poole]

Lester

I think, if you are addressing this to the general OSM list, we need a
better idea of the situation you are referring to ( a marked up
photograph for example). Right now it is at least not clear to me what
the issue is.

BTW have you tried OSMand?

Simon

Am 09.07.2013 10:46, schrieb Lester Caine:
> Given the current thread on the role of OSM as a source I think this
> is possibly the right forum to post these notes.
>
> I'm currently working through a move from my N900 phone augmented by a
> tomtom sat nav which has provided me with a usable 'in car' setup for
> a number of years. The N900 has died and while I can simply buy a
> replacement, Vodafone 'owed' me an upgrade which I was probably paying
> for anyway, so I picked up an S4 since it runs Android 4.2 and the
> tablet I've been playing with has the same on it. First problem ...
> TomTom will not work with S4 for updates or hands free. S4's own hands
> free is adequate, but not nearly as good as I had. Moving forward,
> locus provides a tool to replace the TomTom navigation and it works
> reasonably well, but again not as 'safe' as the TomTom. I use the word
> 'safe' for a particular reason which is the major todo item. Currently
> all four of the routing engines locus accesses give a major problem on
> UK major road junctions.
>
> The problem is that directions given for major junctions tend to be
> 'straight on' where the ACTUAL move is to take the slip road. This is
> where I am wondering if the 'global' nature of this is perhaps getting
> in the way? With driving on the left or right confusing things.
> Improving UK routing to handle major junctions safely is not something
> that would necessarily have the same requirements elsewhere? The
> micro-mapping discussion also comes in here with actual lane data
> making giving directions through a complex junction easier to
> generate. We don't allow 'tagging for the router', but in these cases
> creating data from nothing is causing a safety problem? I can see the
> same problem in many countries but requiring a different
> interpretation of the data hence what should we be doing to ensure
> that the various routing options do have the best data to provide
> 'safe' information?
>
> There are a couple of other items on the todo list, but I have the
> material to work on them :)
>



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Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis

[osm]

Frederik,

On Tue, 09 Jul 2013 09:53:54 +0200, Frederik Ramm 
wrote:
>
>...
>
>The great thing about OSM is not that we might one day have a site
>where you can do everything that you can do on Google too; the great
>thing is that everyone can set up their *own* site where you can do
>something. And shouldn't we actively encourage that (by, perhaps,
>better integrating osm.org with third party sites) rather than
>building our very own corporate behemoth?
>

That is okay for people who have been in the OSM world for a long time
so know about third party sites and also enjoy the freedom to run their
own services.

I think where an integrated, gmaps style, site would be most useful is 
in attracting new contributors. Someone coming cold to openstreetmap.org 
today might mistakenly think that what is the point in contributing to
a "map" where there is no routing or where the map itself is about as
interactive as something printed on paper.

My ideal solution would be to have a gmaps style integrated site mainly
as a shop window to attract new people (+ also nice to show off to the
media) and then also have a proper contributors portal (maybe at
osm.org) which would focus very much on community, showing people
active in your area, local mapping events, tagging standards for your
country, data sources you can use, tips from experienced mappers, 
that kind of thing.

Kevin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis

[Simon Poole]

Am 09.07.2013 11:25, schrieb o...@k3v.eu:
>
> My ideal solution would be to have a gmaps style integrated site mainly
> as a shop window to attract new people (+ also nice to show off to the
> media) ...

I'm sure you realize that even if you call it something different it is
still a duck (as in: If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and
quacks like a duck, ...), In practice what you would like amounts to
running a full blown gmaps competitor, and if it even done badly it
would be so insanely popular that we would have to turn the project
inside out to support it (we already have some of the issues without
even trying). 

Simon


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Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis

[Philip Barnes]

Would a reasonable compromise be to provide links to projects that use osm?

Phil (trigpoint)
--

Sent from my Nokia N9



On 09/07/2013 11:30 Simon Poole wrote:



Am 09.07.2013 11:25, schrieb o...@k3v.eu:
>
> My ideal solution would be to have a gmaps style integrated site mainly
> as a shop window to attract new people (+ also nice to show off to the
> media) ...


I'm sure you realize that even if you call it something different it is
still a duck (as in: If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and
quacks like a duck, ...), In practice what you would like amounts to
running a full blown gmaps competitor, and if it even done badly it
would be so insanely popular that we would have to turn the project
inside out to support it (we already have some of the issues without
even trying).


Simon


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Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis

[Immanuel Giulea]

I'm also very new at Openstreetmap and want to add my 2cents.

I think a directory of all the tools available would be a great starting
point.

So far I was introduced to wheelmap and overpass.

But not any of the fantastic dozens of tools available.

If those tools were allowed as layers on the main map I would be happy.

Let's face it openstreetmap is very little known. I have contacted the
geography faculties here in Montreal to let them know an alternative to
gmaps exists.

Google has become synonymous to search engine.
Gmaps has become synonymous to mapping.

Immanuel
On 2013-07-09 6:42 AM, "Philip Barnes"  wrote:

> Would a reasonable compromise be to provide links to projects that use osm?
>
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
>
> --
>
>
>
> Sent from my Nokia N9
>
>
>
> On 09/07/2013 11:30 Simon Poole wrote:
>
>  Am 09.07.2013 11:25, schrieb o...@k3v.eu:
> >
> > My ideal solution would be to have a gmaps style integrated site mainly
> > as a shop window to attract new people (+ also nice to show off to the
> > media) ...
>
>  I'm sure you realize that even if you call it something different it is
> still a duck (as in: If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and
> quacks like a duck, ...), In practice what you would like amounts to
> running a full blown gmaps competitor, and if it even done badly it
> would be so insanely popular that we would have to turn the project
> inside out to support it (we already have some of the issues without
> even trying).
>
>  Simon
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis

[Simon Poole]

Well we do have
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/List_of_OSM_based_Services and other
lists of services (not suggesting that they are a sufficient replacement
for a integrated solution).

Simon

Am 09.07.2013 12:40, schrieb Philip Barnes:
>
> Would a reasonable compromise be to provide links to projects that use
> osm?
>
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
>
> --
>
>  
>
> Sent from my Nokia N9
>
>  
>
>
> On 09/07/2013 11:30 Simon Poole wrote:
>
>
> Am 09.07.2013 11:25, schrieb o...@k3v.eu :
> >
> > My ideal solution would be to have a gmaps style integrated site mainly
> > as a shop window to attract new people (+ also nice to show off to the
> > media) ...
>
> I'm sure you realize that even if you call it something different it is
> still a duck (as in: If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and
> quacks like a duck, ...), In practice what you would like amounts to
> running a full blown gmaps competitor, and if it even done badly it
> would be so insanely popular that we would have to turn the project
> inside out to support it (we already have some of the issues without
> even trying).
>
> Simon
>
>
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>
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis

[osm]

On Tue, 09 Jul 2013 12:30:23 +0200, Simon Poole  wrote:
>
>Am 09.07.2013 11:25, schrieb o...@k3v.eu:
>>
>> My ideal solution would be to have a gmaps style integrated site
>> mainly as a shop window to attract new people (+ also nice to show
>> off to the media) ...
>
>I'm sure you realize that even if you call it something different it is
>still a duck (as in: If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and
>quacks like a duck, ...), In practice what you would like amounts to
>running a full blown gmaps competitor, and if it even done badly it
>would be so insanely popular that we would have to turn the project
>inside out to support it (we already have some of the issues without
>even trying). 
>

I don't think that would be the case as gmaps is so ingrained in most
peoples surfing habits that they aren't suddenly going to change
en-masse to OSM whatever the site looks like.

It just seems to me that if you have a shop window from 2006 a lot of
people aren't going to bother to come in and check-out the great stuff 
you have in the back room.

Kevin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis

[Michael Buege]

Zitat Immanuel Giulea:

> I'm also very new at Openstreetmap and want to add my 2cents.
> 
> I think a directory of all the tools available would be a great starting
> point.

Something like this?


-- 
Michael


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Clarifying Geocoding and ODbL

[Simon Poole]

One of the issues with this discussion is that we are using one word to
describe many different things, that we tend to view as one from a usage
pov. IMHO it would be difficult to see how partial
matching/auto-completion of addresses would not simply be generating a
substantial extract and hence a derivative database if actually stored.

On the other hand I could probably make a case that  if addresses that
already contain sufficient information to query a database successfully 
are associated with a single approximate coordinate-tupel (and not with
an OSM object as Nominatim can do) that the result could amount to a
"produced work". But that is just IMHO.

Simon


Am 08.07.2013 09:46, schrieb Peter K:
> Hi there,
>
> I would like to have clarification on this subject as well (but be
> aware that I'm just in the process of understanding the OSM license ->
> see the other thread).
>
> What I do not understand with the OSM license is the following
> (constructed) example:
>
>  * I have a separate geo coder application based on OSM data
>  * I have my own user database which is public to every individual
>
> Now what happens when I use the geocoder to let users do
> autocompleting its addresses in my "somehow public" database? I have
> lots of users so this "manual" copying from OSM would be *substantial*
> but at the same time it is clear that I cannot make the database
> itself public. Or is the resulting database still separate as there
> are clean "OSM columns"?
>
> Regards,
> Peter.
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis

[Richard Fairhurst]

Maarten Deen wrote:
> The problem with OSM is that with Google, Google maps is the go-to 
> site to get everything: map, routing, information. With OSM it is not.
> [...]
> It just is less userfriendly than having it all on one site.

And that's a great business opportunity for someone... right?



Although: it turns out that not even Google has "everything". I guess that
if you're a car driver who searches for addresses a lot, especially in
places with big long roads (where house numbers are really important),
Google Maps is wonderful.

But fortunately I live in a country where we have (a) short roads and (b)
bikes, and actually Google's not all that. Their bike cartography?
"Cartography" is probably too kind. Their bike routing? Sure, if you like
being mowed down on lethal fast roads. Their POI display? I sort of fell out
of love with that after spending half-an-hour looking for a non-existent
bike shop on the back streets of Great Malvern.

So, instead, I use OpenCycleMap, CycleStreets, and a couple of other sites.
Maybe one day, someone will build the all-in-one British cycle mapping
website to end them all, and I'll use that. And I bet you it will be made
with OSM data.

If even Google can't manage to be everything, openstreetmap.org certainly
can't be. Instead, we're at the heart of an ecosystem that allows people to
build their own "everything"s. If the OSM-based "everything" for you doesn't
exist yet, go out and build it.

cheers
Richard





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Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis

[Simon Poole]

Am 09.07.2013 14:04, schrieb o...@k3v.eu:

>
> It just seems to me that if you have a shop window from 2006 a lot of
> people aren't going to bother to come in and check-out the great stuff 
> you have in the back room.
I believe that it is well recognized that we have a slight contradiction
in the way we operate that on the one hand we want and need attractive
"shop windows" to attract more mappers, on the other hand don't actually
want to provide services to such contributors (outside of supporting
contributing and editing). The, at least historic, way out is to assume
that our data consumers, 4square, and all the others, are providing the
shop windows and we only have to do something minimal for visitors that
stumble on us by accident.

If this actually works is open to debate. What is clear is that our past
role models (Navteq, TeleAtlas) have themselves departed more from the
pure data collector/provider model than we have in response to market
pressure (mainly google).

Simon




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Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis

[Frans Thamura]

Guillaume

We use here . Almost any system here integrated with osm.

F
On Jul 9, 2013 11:43 AM, "Guillaume Pratte" 
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I have been a serious user of OpenStreetMap for less than six months, and
> I am proud to recently have achieved my one hundredth contribution to the
> project. I really love the OpenStreetMap project, and I would like to
> replace my daily usage of Google Maps with OpenStreetMap.
>
> But it just seems I cannot. Anybody else feel the same issues?
>
> I'll give a few concrete examples why, humbly hoping that my words can
> encourage changes to the main website.
>
> First point: searching. I have OpenStreetMap zoomed in to some region of
> Montreal, Canada. I input "café", looking for a coffee shop. I get results
> from Nominatim, inviting me to visit a village in Brazil named "Café" or
> even the "Café point" in Antarctica. While these search results awaken my
> globetrotter's desire to explore the world, they frustrate me at the same
> time. Why couldn't Nominatim priorize results from the bounding box or
> surrounding? Why can't OpenStreetMap show me results on the map like the
> OverPass API does, performing a search on the tag amenity=cafe and showing
> the results on the map?
>
> Second point: accessing POI information. I cannot click on point of
> interests (POI) to get more info about them. Why do we input address,
> business hours and phone numbers on shops and restaurants if the map cannot
> easily display this information to the user? Why do I have to show the
> map's data in order to have information on a point of interest?
>
> Third point: maximum zoom level. Some area are densely populated, and
> OpenStreetMap's current zoom level is not enough to see all details of the
> map. This is really unfortunate. Example: http://osm.org/go/cIrNs6Qzp--What 
> are the restaurant surrounding the Hard Rock Café on this map? I have
> to use the editor to be able to zoom and see all data.
>
> Fourth point: sharing a point of interest. There should be an easy way to
> do that. I have found a (complicated) way to do it, which is all but
> obvious to newcomers. Here is how:
>
> • Using the layer icon at the top right of the map, I select
> "Browse Map Data";
> • I select the object I want to share (which is not always
> possible; sometimes it is "hidden" behind a residential area or similar);
> • I click on "Details"
> • On the resulting page, I click on "View way on larger map"
> • I get an URL similar to this that I can share:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?way=225637513
>
> Fifth point: routing. Why is there absolutely no routing implemented on
> the main OpenStreetMap website? This is I concede a naïve question, as it
> might be simply because of limited server resources. Once we have our new
> servers, is this something we want to implement, as a community?
>
> I really like the OpenStreetMap project, and I dream to be able to use it
> as a primary map instead of Google Maps. I feel resolving these issues
> would bring me many steps closer to making that dream come true.
>
> What do you all think? Do you also have showstoppers that prevent you to
> use OpenStreetMap as your primary and daily map?
>
> Guillaume
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Re: [OSM-talk] Todo List

[SomeoneElse]

Lester Caine wrote:



The problem is that directions given for major junctions tend to be 
'straight on' where the ACTUAL move is to take the slip road.


FWIW, this isn't a problem I've seen (either on eTrex or Nuvi) with 
Garmins using OSM data.  I suspect it's down to the router rather than a 
problem with the data...


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis

[Marc Gemis]

People will "stumble" more easily on the OpenStreetMap site than on any of
the other sites (umap, OSRM, etc..).
Most press articles are about OpenStreetMap, so they search for that brand;
thus they will end up on the openstreetmap.org website.

The list of all services is also neatly "hidden" on the wiki. How many
first time visitors will go from the main page to that page ?

I understand that the main website is targeted towards contributors, but
that is not clear from just looking at the website.
People see a map and probably want to use it in a google way. They compare
the features and assume that OpenStreetMap has to offer less.
They will not look for an alternative service based upon OSM.

just my .5 cents

Marc



On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 2:38 PM, Simon Poole  wrote:

>
> Am 09.07.2013 14:04, schrieb o...@k3v.eu:
>
> >
> > It just seems to me that if you have a shop window from 2006 a lot of
> > people aren't going to bother to come in and check-out the great stuff
> > you have in the back room.
> I believe that it is well recognized that we have a slight contradiction
> in the way we operate that on the one hand we want and need attractive
> "shop windows" to attract more mappers, on the other hand don't actually
> want to provide services to such contributors (outside of supporting
> contributing and editing). The, at least historic, way out is to assume
> that our data consumers, 4square, and all the others, are providing the
> shop windows and we only have to do something minimal for visitors that
> stumble on us by accident.
>
> If this actually works is open to debate. What is clear is that our past
> role models (Navteq, TeleAtlas) have themselves departed more from the
> pure data collector/provider model than we have in response to market
> pressure (mainly google).
>
> Simon
>
>
>
>
> ___
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> talk@openstreetmap.org
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis

[colliar]

Am 09.07.2013 13:57, schrieb Simon Poole:
> Well we do have
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/List_of_OSM_based_Services and other
> lists of services (not suggesting that they are a sufficient replacement
> for a integrated solution).

and you do not find it cause it is hidden in the wiki and not many pages
link to it.

Well, a link to two or three of these list in the wiki about services,
online maps and tools in general would be really helpful.

Last week I had to help a friend to get a marker set. Still is still an
issue. It is explained on help.osm but again no link from page.

The .svg export is another annoying issue as it rarely works.

How about a link page under osm.org to better guide interested people ?
Could be even just a link to a wiki page.





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Re: [OSM-talk] Todo List

[Lester Caine]

SomeoneElse wrote:

The problem is that directions given for major junctions tend to be 'straight
on' where the ACTUAL move is to take the slip road.


FWIW, this isn't a problem I've seen (either on eTrex or Nuvi) with Garmins
using OSM data.  I suspect it's down to the router rather than a problem with
the data...


I tend to agree with you now that I've had a further dig into this. 
Unfortunately the bug report I posted to the locus forum has not received a 
reply from last month. There is still a problem with needing to identify which 
lane of a multi lane junction you you should occupy, and modify that as junction 
layouts change. In the UK the M4 to M5 junction is being widened and I now need 
to get into lane 3 to get on the right slip road to go North rather than 2 ... 
and going through a new route a week or so back I was glad tomtom filled in that 
data :)


Once again the problem is simply one of identifying who is making the mistakes?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis

[Lester Caine]

Richard Fairhurst wrote:

If even Google can't manage to be everything, openstreetmap.org certainly
can't be. Instead, we're at the heart of an ecosystem that allows people to
build their own "everything"s. If the OSM-based "everything" for you doesn't
exist yet, go out and build it.


I'm certainly getting around to the same point of view.
While there are a lot of 'shop windows' to find suitable software, googleplay 
and other android stores, i-store, linux repositories and even window sources. 
Searching for OSM or openstreetmap does not give particularly reliable results. 
Even searching gives a lot of 'miss-information'? So perhaps the starting point 
is to expand on the long list of links that we do have in a more informative 
way? We perhaps need to differentiate better services and user software from 
developer and other tools. A 'router' is not necessarily a 'routing service' and 
this gets rather messy when you look on the wiki currently?


Mike - I'm not talking about making the front end more 'developer' orientated, 
but better forward users to other available local portals? One of the things 
that irritates me with the existing map is that it's not immediately obvious 
where in the world you are, especially if working from a random link. I think I 
am looking for a 'location' box which also lists local websites and other 
versions of the database? I'd include a link to an appropriate routing site as 
part of the box.


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
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Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis

[Tom Morris]

I agree. Adding more functionality to OpenStreetMap.org means that people will 
use it as a go-to mapping site for things like routing and recommend it to 
others.

This means they'll probably find errors/incompleteness... and they can then fix 
them or tag them with a note.

I know plenty of people who, because of my frequent linking to 
openstreetmap.org, have joined and fixed a few basic things in their area: 
adding a pub here or there etc.

Making openstreetmap.org more useful for users will hopefully mean there is an 
increased supply of people who want to edit the map. And if they are just 
seeing a map in Foursquare or another app, they don't exactly see that there's 
an edit button.

--
Tom Morris
http://tommorris.org/

On 9 July 2013 at 13:54:54, Marc Gemis (marc.ge...@gmail.com) wrote:

People will "stumble" more easily on the OpenStreetMap site than on any of the 
other sites (umap, OSRM, etc..).
Most press articles are about OpenStreetMap, so they search for that brand; 
thus they will end up on the openstreetmap.org website.

The list of all services is also neatly "hidden" on the wiki. How many first 
time visitors will go from the main page to that page ?

I understand that the main website is targeted towards contributors, but that 
is not clear from just looking at the website.
People see a map and probably want to use it in a google way. They compare the 
features and assume that OpenStreetMap has to offer less.
They will not look for an alternative service based upon OSM.

just my .5 cents

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Re: [OSM-talk] Using OpenStreetMap on a daily basis

[Simon Poole]

Am 09.07.2013 13:42, schrieb Immanuel Giulea:
> ...
>
> Let's face it openstreetmap is very little known. I have contacted the
> geography faculties here in Montreal to let them know an alternative
> to gmaps exists.
>
> Google has become synonymous to search engine.
> Gmaps has become synonymous to mapping.
>
>
Before I forget: my usual plea for more help in/for the Communications
Working Group http://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Communication_Working_Group

While we are likely to have enough hands at a regional and local level,
we really more help communicating globally (it would in the long run
naturally be advantageous if we could sync regional and global comms a
bit). So if there are readers that have some experience in the area and
want to help, please don't hesitate to get in contact with Harry.

Simon


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[OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap font

[sabas88]

Hello list,
are there some style/brand guidelines for the creation of OSM materials?
Particularly I was asked about which font could be used to write
OpenStreetMap, and the only text I found was the one in the old banner (
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Osm_linkage.png ) but there isn't
no indication of a particular font.

An example are the Ubuntu guidelines
http://design.ubuntu.com/brand/ubuntu-logo

Regards,
Stefano
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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap font

[Robert Scott]

On Tuesday 09 July 2013, sabas88 wrote:
> Hello list,
> are there some style/brand guidelines for the creation of OSM materials?
> Particularly I was asked about which font could be used to write
> OpenStreetMap, and the only text I found was the one in the old banner (
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Osm_linkage.png ) but there isn't
> no indication of a particular font.
> 
> An example are the Ubuntu guidelines
> http://design.ubuntu.com/brand/ubuntu-logo

The answer is: no.

But it would be nice to have one.

It would however require someone (with enough design credibility* to quieten 
the bikeshedders) to sit down and do one.

I've also always wanted a blessed colour scheme.

Historically, people used Bitstream Vera or Helvetica quite a lot, but I've 
recently been using Cabin (SIL License).


robert.

* Here, imagine me coughing a lot in the direction of certain DC/SF 
organizations.

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