Re: [OSM-talk] Editing wiki asks for confirmation code?

[Skyler Hawthorne]

I tried to post a screenshot, but the mailing list has a max size of 40 KB, 
which seems very small.


I am on a OnePlus 7T with OxygenOS 10.0.11.HD65AA. I've tried a couple of 
pages by clicking the pencil button, making my changes, and then hitting 
the Save button. This is when the text box appears that says "Confirmation 
Code."


The same thing happens on both Firefox and Chrome.
--
Skyler

On July 25, 2020 00:12:45 Skyler Hawthorne  wrote:


Hi, I'm posting here because I'm not sure where would be more appropriate.

When I try to edit a wiki page, after I get to the preview page and enter a
description of the change, a text box pops up that just says "confirmation
code". I don't know if I'm supposed to get an email with a code or
something, but I never get one.

What does it want?
--
Skyler



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[OSM-talk] Editing wiki asks for confirmation code?

[Skyler Hawthorne]

Hi, I'm posting here because I'm not sure where would be more appropriate.

When I try to edit a wiki page, after I get to the preview page and enter a 
description of the change, a text box pops up that just says "confirmation 
code". I don't know if I'm supposed to get an email with a code or 
something, but I never get one.


What does it want?
--
Skyler



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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] TagHelp : les artisans et entreprises.

[Philippe Verdy]

consulting semble tiré par les cheveux, même si c'est une société privée,
elle ne fait pas de consulting en terme de gestion de projet, même si elle
apporte une expertise et un conseil, et remet un avis qui peut ensuite
motiver une demande d'autorisation à poursuivre des travaux, ou la façon de
préserver ce qui doit être préservé et mettre d'accord ceux qui s'en
occuperont, ou bien pourra recommander une modification du projet et aider
un promoteur à donc faire approuver ces modification nécessaires (qui peut
inclure unne nouvelle procédure à étude d'intérêt publique et des
expropriations de terrain voisins pour maintenir l'intérêt public du projet
initial qui aurait pu déjà être approuvé, ou bien aider à financer une
compensation si le projet ne peut plus être mené à terme, le site devant
être préservé coute que coute en l'état si son importance est jugée
essentielle et son déplacement serait trop destructeur ou trop coûteux ou
trop complexe, aussi bien pour le promoteur que pour la collectivité).

Au delà de ça, la société intervient aussi avec des moyens matériels,
technologiques et humains pour la réalisation des fouilles, même si souvent
ces fouilles sont ensuite menées par des assos et des bénévoles formés
ou encadrés, afin que celles-ci soient menées efficacement, sans détruire,
en sécurité et sans trop de retard pour les projets initiaux. Du fait de la
suspension d'un chantier, le promoteur peut se voir astreint à des
pénalités de retard par ses clients, il faut donc aussi qu'il puisse les
justifier et la société peut apporter cette expertise; elle peut chercher
des solutions avec les autorités locales ou nationales pour d'éventuels
arrêtés suspensifs, et des mesures compensatoires ou indemnisatrices de ces
retards ou de la non-réalisation de ce qui était prévu (y compris aider
avec les compagnies d'assurance qui pourraient alors fournir ces
indemnisations de retard ou de pertes d'exploitation).

L'activité "consulting" se justifie sur cette part de conseil et
d'assistance en matière légale et financière (et la remise des rapports
motivés permettant d'enclencher ces procédures légales), mais finalement
moins en ce qui concerne l""archaeology" (orthographe anglaise, attention
aux 3 voyelles, plus proche du latin que notre orthographe française à 2
voyelles!) elles-même qui s'apparente plus à une activité culturelle, et
une maitrise d'oeuvre pour des travaux (comme les architectes) ou leur
réalisation (artisanat), et leur encadrement (y compris des formateurs), ou
la fourniture de matériels (de sondage, d'analyse, des moyens de
dégagements non destructeurs comme des pompes adaptées ou divers outillage,
ou de collecte de données et logiciels associés pour recenser
convenablement et ne rien laisser de côté au risque d'oublier et
compromettre une partie du site...)

Ceci-dit c'est un domaine très spécifique et il y a très peu d'entités de
ce genre en France (il peut y en avoir d'autres en Europe qui interviennent
aussi en France et la même société pourrit être sollicitée pour intervenir
ailleurs dans le monde); de telles sociétés ne peuvent pas exister non plus
sans coopération avec les autorités culturelles locales, nationales voire
internationales (européennes, Unesco, et autres organisations et fondations
à but économique, humanitaire ou culturel, y compris les organisations
religieuses; l'histoire est aussi un sujet hautement politique ça touche à
l'identité des peuples, mal faire une fouille peut provoquer de sérieux
troubles de sécurité : on ne peut pas faire n'importe quoi et il faut
montrer au public qu'on a fait le maximum pour préserver ce qui le mérite :
il y a aussi besoin de mener des campagnes de communication auprès du
public pour l'informer correctement ou lui montrer le résultat: préserver
pour préserver ne doit pas servir qu'à créer une obscure collection privée
qui ensuite sera revendue sous le manteau par quelques bénéficiaires ou
secrètement acquis par un musée lointain voire étranger ; cette histoire
n'appartient pas qu'à la seule autorité locale actuelle ou l'occupant ou
acquéreur actuel des lieux, même s'il peut revendiquer certains droits pour
lesquels il doit pouvoir recevoir une compensation ou indemnisation à
défaut de pouvoir acquérir des droits de propriété supplémentaires et
cessibles sur le patrimoine découvert, même si la loi l'établit en tant
"qu'inventeur" du site).






Le dim. 19 juil. 2020 à 21:50, Yves P.  a écrit :

> Une officine privée de recherches archéologiques ?
>>
> Joker : office=company 
>
> Ok mieux avec : office=consulting
>
> __
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>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Heresy - pure discussion

[Tomas Straupis]

2020-07-25, št, 00:58 john whelan rašė:
> If reliability and security are critical then you have to start balancing 
> things out.

  This is a lie or FUD. Microsofts security/reliability level was a
joke 20-30 years ago, it got somehow better since then but security is
nowhere close and the tools available to environment management
helping to have a reliable process in unix/linux are incomprehensible
in windows (for example LVM magic). Therefore if security/reliability
is of main importance - Microsoft is the LAST option you would think
about.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Heresy - pure discussion

[Jóhannes Birgir Jensson]

Nothing beats PostGIS at the moment and there is a large migration of GIS 
databases going on in general where the free and free ( code and license) 
aspects of Postgre are major factors as well.
In my job I am running and coding for Postgre, MySQL and MSSQL servers and have 
previously over the past decades developed in DB2, Oracle and others. 
Administration is never fool proof - database flavor doesn't matter much 
there.Moving from Postgre would be swimming against the tide.
 Upprunalegt skeyti Frá: John Whelan  
Dagsetning: 24.7.2020  23:03  (GMT+00:00) Til: Hartmut Holzgraefe 
 Samrit: talk@openstreetmap.org Efni: Re: [OSM-talk] Heresy - 
pure discussion Thank you Hartmut, 

my expertise is not in GIS databases so this is helpful to know.  My 
experience is much more to do with straight SQL databases doing none GIS
 work on a variety of platforms. 

Cheerio John

Hartmut Holzgraefe wrote on 2020-07-24 18:49:
On 25.07.20 
00:16, Alexandre Oliveira wrote:
  
  Having said that the 
main advantage of SQL is
it is a standard so you should be able to connect practically 
anything to
it.
That's not entirely true. SQL is a language but every 
database
implements its own dialect, i.e., some query keywords implemented in
MSSQL might not be available in MySQL/MariaDB and vice-versa.




  
SQL is a "standard" only in so far as developers are somewhat
  
interchangeable between products.
  

  
There is nothing that prevents RDBMS implementations from adding
  
features on top of the standard, and most of the standard features
  
are optional anyway.
  

  
E.g. the actual ISO SQL standard for stored procedures is only really 
implemented by IBM/DB2, MySQL and MariaDB, while all other RDBMS 
products implement their own procedure languages (and I can't even
  
blame them, as the ISO SQL standard syntax feels as if it got
  
stuck in the old BASIC days).
  

  
The key question though would be: is MS SQL Server GIS support
  
on par with PostGIS?
  

  
My impression so far was that it provides just a little bit more
  
than what the OGC 1.1 standard requires.
  

  
That would put it in the same league as MySQL and MariaDB, maybe
  
slightly ahead, but very far below what PostGIS provides.
  

  
(Disclaimer: I'm working for MariaDB as a support engineer, and
  
have been working for MySQL before, so I may a little bit biased.
  
But even I would always recommend the PostgreSQL / PostGIS combo
  
over MariaDB for all but the most basic GIS applications)
  

  


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Re: [Talk-GB] Using OSM as a base for my own fictional map?

[Martin Wynne]

On 25/07/2020 00:36, David Woolley wrote:

Also, generating a PDF server side is a relatively expensive, so don't 
expect to welcomed if you start doing this on the fly.


Hi David,

Can you clarify what you mean by "on the fly"?

I anticipate clicking the PDF download button, and then working locally 
on the downloaded file. Maybe doing a dozen or so in an evening, once or 
twice a week.


The modified images would then be distributed to others via my own 
server. Which would have no effect on the OSM server.


cheers,

Martin.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Heresy - pure discussion

[James]

POSTGRESQL with Gis extension has better performance than SQL Server
indexing coordinates/type(node, way, polygon, relation) as columns.

On Fri., Jul. 24, 2020, 7:01 p.m. John Whelan, 
wrote:

> Thank you Hartmut,
>
> my expertise is not in GIS databases so this is helpful to know.  My
> experience is much more to do with straight SQL databases doing none GIS
> work on a variety of platforms.
>
> Cheerio John
>
> Hartmut Holzgraefe wrote on 2020-07-24 18:49:
>
> On 25.07.20 00:16, Alexandre Oliveira wrote:
>
> Having said that the main advantage of SQL is
> it is a standard so you should be able to connect practically anything to
> it.
>
> That's not entirely true. SQL is a language but every database
> implements its own dialect, i.e., some query keywords implemented in
> MSSQL might not be available in MySQL/MariaDB and vice-versa.
>
>
>
> SQL is a "standard" only in so far as developers are somewhat
> interchangeable between products.
>
> There is nothing that prevents RDBMS implementations from adding
> features on top of the standard, and most of the standard features
> are optional anyway.
>
> E.g. the actual ISO SQL standard for stored procedures is only really
> implemented by IBM/DB2, MySQL and MariaDB, while all other RDBMS products
> implement their own procedure languages (and I can't even
> blame them, as the ISO SQL standard syntax feels as if it got
> stuck in the old BASIC days).
>
> The key question though would be: is MS SQL Server GIS support
> on par with PostGIS?
>
> My impression so far was that it provides just a little bit more
> than what the OGC 1.1 standard requires.
>
> That would put it in the same league as MySQL and MariaDB, maybe
> slightly ahead, but very far below what PostGIS provides.
>
> (Disclaimer: I'm working for MariaDB as a support engineer, and
> have been working for MySQL before, so I may a little bit biased.
> But even I would always recommend the PostgreSQL / PostGIS combo
> over MariaDB for all but the most basic GIS applications)
>
>
> --
> Sent from Postbox 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Using OSM as a base for my own fictional map?

[David Woolley]

On 24/07/2020 23:54, Martin Wynne wrote:


The downloaded PDF files are vector files which can be zoomed to any 
level without pixelating, and can have the internal records modified as 
required.


The only vector files where you can reliably detect things like railways 
are those produced by the OSM APIs.  The PDFs will change as ideas on 
how to render the map change.  On the other hand, they contain no 
rendering, just wire frames.


Also, generating a PDF server side is a relatively expensive, so don't 
expect to welcomed if you start doing this on the fly.


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Re: [talk-cz] Spolek OSM ČR z.s. je Local Chapter Nadace OSM

[Jan Macura]

Ahoj,

aktualizoval jsem
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/Local_Chapters a částečně i
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cs:spolek_OSMCZ .

Když to někdo dotáhne, nebudu se zlobit.
Noticka na web (https://openstreetmap.cz/spolek) a na socky by taky nebyla
špatná.

H.

On Thu, 23 Jul 2020 at 08:41, Tom Ka  wrote:

> Ahoj,
>
> byla podepsána formální smlouva a spolek OpenStreetMap Česká republika
> z.s. se tak stal oficiálním zastoupením Nadace OpenStreetMap pro
> Českou republiku, viz:
>
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Local_Chapters
>
> Díky všem za pomoc a podporu!
> tom.k, Marián, Jakub
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Heresy - pure discussion

[John Whelan]

Thank you Hartmut,

my expertise is not in GIS databases so this is helpful to know.  My 
experience is much more to do with straight SQL databases doing none GIS 
work on a variety of platforms.


Cheerio John

Hartmut Holzgraefe wrote on 2020-07-24 18:49:

On 25.07.20 00:16, Alexandre Oliveira wrote:

Having said that the main advantage of SQL is
it is a standard so you should be able to connect practically 
anything to

it.

That's not entirely true. SQL is a language but every database
implements its own dialect, i.e., some query keywords implemented in
MSSQL might not be available in MySQL/MariaDB and vice-versa.




SQL is a "standard" only in so far as developers are somewhat
interchangeable between products.

There is nothing that prevents RDBMS implementations from adding
features on top of the standard, and most of the standard features
are optional anyway.

E.g. the actual ISO SQL standard for stored procedures is only really 
implemented by IBM/DB2, MySQL and MariaDB, while all other RDBMS 
products implement their own procedure languages (and I can't even

blame them, as the ISO SQL standard syntax feels as if it got
stuck in the old BASIC days).

The key question though would be: is MS SQL Server GIS support
on par with PostGIS?

My impression so far was that it provides just a little bit more
than what the OGC 1.1 standard requires.

That would put it in the same league as MySQL and MariaDB, maybe
slightly ahead, but very far below what PostGIS provides.

(Disclaimer: I'm working for MariaDB as a support engineer, and
have been working for MySQL before, so I may a little bit biased.
But even I would always recommend the PostgreSQL / PostGIS combo
over MariaDB for all but the most basic GIS applications)



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Re: [Talk-GB] Using OSM as a base for my own fictional map?

[Martin Wynne]

On 24/07/2020 23:18, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB wrote:


"OpenStreetMap data is free for everyone to use. Our tile servers are not."
See https://operations.osmfoundation.org/policies/tiles/ for more
"In particular, downloading an area of over 250 tiles at zoom level 13
or higher for offline or later usage is forbidden."
is the most limiting part


Thanks Mateusz. However, I would not be using any OSM tiles at all. I 
would be using this PDF download function instead:


 https://85a.uk/osm_pdf_download.png

and once only for any given map area.



Though I suspect that rendering map (raster tiles with Mapnik, client-side 
rendered vector tiles,
rendering on client side from raw OSM data etc) will be better than fetching 
raster tiles and modifying
them


I agree that modifying a raster image, whether from a tile or any other, 
would give very poor results, especially when zoomed in. But I'm not 
planning to fetch or modify any raster tiles.


The downloaded PDF files are vector files which can be zoomed to any 
level without pixelating, and can have the internal records modified as 
required.


cheers,

Martin.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Heresy - pure discussion

[Hartmut Holzgraefe]

On 25.07.20 00:16, Alexandre Oliveira wrote:

Having said that the main advantage of SQL is
it is a standard so you should be able to connect practically anything to
it.

That's not entirely true. SQL is a language but every database
implements its own dialect, i.e., some query keywords implemented in
MSSQL might not be available in MySQL/MariaDB and vice-versa.




SQL is a "standard" only in so far as developers are somewhat
interchangeable between products.

There is nothing that prevents RDBMS implementations from adding
features on top of the standard, and most of the standard features
are optional anyway.

E.g. the actual ISO SQL standard for stored procedures is only really 
implemented by IBM/DB2, MySQL and MariaDB, while all other RDBMS 
products implement their own procedure languages (and I can't even

blame them, as the ISO SQL standard syntax feels as if it got
stuck in the old BASIC days).

The key question though would be: is MS SQL Server GIS support
on par with PostGIS?

My impression so far was that it provides just a little bit more
than what the OGC 1.1 standard requires.

That would put it in the same league as MySQL and MariaDB, maybe
slightly ahead, but very far below what PostGIS provides.

(Disclaimer: I'm working for MariaDB as a support engineer, and
have been working for MySQL before, so I may a little bit biased.
But even I would always recommend the PostgreSQL / PostGIS combo
over MariaDB for all but the most basic GIS applications)

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Re: [Talk-GB] Using OSM as a base for my own fictional map?

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB]

Jul 25, 2020, 00:06 by mar...@templot.com:

> I need to work out how to do the attribution and any copyright issues. I can 
> easily add the usual © OpenStreetMap Contributors caption on the corner of 
> each tile. But is it permitted to modify and re-use the standard OSM map 
> image in this way? 
>
Copyright is not a problem. But note 
"OpenStreetMap data is free for everyone to use. Our tile servers are not."

See https://operations.osmfoundation.org/policies/tiles/ for more

"In particular, downloading an area of over 250 tiles at zoom level 13
or higher for offline or later usage is forbidden."

is the most limiting part

>
> What indication is required that it has been modified? The project will be 
> free and open-source, there is no financial gain involved.
>
Not a lawyer, but clear attribution and explanation that railway lines are 100% 
fantasy
should be OK. And it will make you a better data consumer than a typical 
corporation
using OSM data.

There is no trap here, do not worry about it (as long as you properly 
attribute, no one
sane will even complain)

Note that it is perfectly fine to use OSM data for commercial purposes, just 
remember
about attribution (as usual).

Note that if you will draw this fantasy railways based on other OSM data you 
will create
derivative work that will be (AFAIK, not a lawyer) also ODBL licensed.

I skipped technical parts - I have no experience here and there is plenty of 
ways to achieve that.
Though I suspect that rendering map (raster tiles with Mapnik, client-side 
rendered vector tiles,
rendering on client side from raw OSM data etc) will be better than fetching 
raster tiles and modifying
them
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Re: [OSM-talk] Heresy - pure discussion

[Alexandre Oliveira]

I think it's stupid to even think about switching to MSSQL. OSM is
free and open data built on top of free and open source technologies.
Switching to MSSQL would be a dumb move, and as mentioned before, it
would require the refactor of several tools built to work with
PostgreSQL, which is pretty much the standard database nowadays for
geospatial data, and IMO it would make OSM non free and open.

> Having said that the main advantage of SQL is
> it is a standard so you should be able to connect practically anything to
> it.

That's not entirely true. SQL is a language but every database
implements its own dialect, i.e., some query keywords implemented in
MSSQL might not be available in MySQL/MariaDB and vice-versa.


> For development Microsoft visual studio is normally recognised as the gold
> standard for development environments and remember Github is now owned by
> Microsoft.

Gold standard for Microsoft owned products and languages. Would you
use Visual Studio to develop a Python app? Of course not, there are
much better IDEs out there. Visual Studio is widely used for Microsoft
stuff only - C#, F#, Microsoft SQL Server, and others.


I think switching to MSSQL is dumb. For the reasons mentioned above,
and what would we get from it? Microsoft support and an increase in
expenses by both users and OSM "employees" because we now need to pay
Microsoft to use their stuff? Is it really worth the hassle? Besides,
there's the side effect that many tech-savvy people would just abandon
OSM if they had to adapt their stuff to Microsoft's standards.


On 7/24/20, john whelan  wrote:
> You need to define the requirements and if having open source software is a
> top priority that's fine.
>
> If reliability and security are critical then you have to start balancing
> things out.
>
> In general UNIX based solutions do not have the same tools available in
> Windows but with a skilled administrator they can be made reasonably
> reliable and secure but a higher level of skill is required in the UNIX
> environment.  Skilled administrator time from volunteers is not expensive
> having said that we should be asking them to do more work than we could?
>
> The 300 users and 600 accounts was actually on a Microsoft SQL server where
> each database user was given their own account and password.   No record of
> who was given which account was kept and over the years people came and
> left.  I agree the admins were at fault but over the years there had been a
> number of admins some had more expertise than others and to an outsider
> knowing which knew what they were doing and which were basically bluffing
> is not always easy.  We had probably fifty database administrators besides
> my team all doing their own thing.  On the Microsoft SQL databases where we
> used Windows operating system groups if someone left they were removed from
> the group and we could check with their admin if they were part of the
> section or not.
>
> Microsoft SQL Server Express is a free limited version of SQL server that
> may well do for many users.  Having said that the main advantage of SQL is
> it is a standard so you should be able to connect practically anything to
> it.
>
> For development Microsoft visual studio is normally recognised as the gold
> standard for development environments and remember Github is now owned by
> Microsoft.
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On Fri, Jul 24, 2020, 17:03 Yves  wrote:
>
>> But face it, philosophy is now also part of the discussion. And that's
>> important.
>> Yves
>>
>> Le 24 juillet 2020 20:50:22 GMT+02:00, john whelan
>> 
>> a écrit :
>>>
>>> If the database was smaller and less infrastructure was reliant on it
>>> working I would agree with you that philosophically open source software
>>> makes a lot of sense.
>>>
>>> However your argument is philosophical rather than logical.
>>>
>>> Note I'm merely requesting that the idea be examined.  I am not saying I
>>> know what is best and all the things that need to be considered.
>>>
>>> Cheerio John
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 24, 2020, 14:35 Yves  wrote:
>>>
 You're probably have some very good points when it comes to database
 management, but running an open map on open source software makes a lot
 of
 sense.

 Yves

 Le 24 juillet 2020 20:11:46 GMT+02:00, john whelan <
 jwhelan0...@gmail.com> a écrit :
>
> All this talk about databases and servers and sysadmins makes me
> wonder
> if we should reconsider our choice of operating systems and databases.
>
> At one time in the past I ran a Database support group that covered
> Sybase, Oracle, Microsoft SQL server, ingres and half a dozen other
> database systems.
>
> The UNIX side, some twenty or so servers ran software that in theory
> monitored the databases.  In practise it never really was upto date.
> Microsoft also had a very nice monitoring tool that monitored and
> suggested
> solutions.  I've dropped an example report 

Re: [Talk-GB] Using OSM as a base for my own fictional map?

[Martin Wynne]

Many thanks for the suggestions and links. A lot to take in there.

Zooming the tiles far enough to see the track detail is essential, so 
I'm wondering if I'm looking at doing this the wrong way.


It's not intended that the tiles would be viewed on a slippy map in a 
web browser. I'm writing a Windows executable to fetch them from the 
server and display them.


I have discovered that from the standard OSM map it is possible to 
download a vector file as a PDF of a selected area.


An EMF metafile would be preferable, but the PDF format is essentially a 
wrapper for metafiles, so it's not too difficult to convert PDF to EMF.


Which means I can programmatically remove the railway tracks by 
searching the metafile records for the relevant line styles and colours.


And then programmatically draw in the required new railway track.

From the modified EMF I can generate the image tiles and upload them to 
my server.


Here's a quick test of that idea, showing the platforms and footbridge 
at the north end of Bewdley station on the SVR, with the OSM tracks 
replaced with detailed track:


 https://85a.uk/bewdley_osm_test.png

Here's the OSM map from which it was derived:

 https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/52.37590/-2.30719=N

I need to work out how to do the attribution and any copyright issues. I 
can easily add the usual © OpenStreetMap Contributors caption on the 
corner of each tile. But is it permitted to modify and re-use the 
standard OSM map image in this way? What indication is required that it 
has been modified? The project will be free and open-source, there is no 
financial gain involved.


cheers,

Martin.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Heresy - pure discussion

[john whelan]

You need to define the requirements and if having open source software is a
top priority that's fine.

If reliability and security are critical then you have to start balancing
things out.

In general UNIX based solutions do not have the same tools available in
Windows but with a skilled administrator they can be made reasonably
reliable and secure but a higher level of skill is required in the UNIX
environment.  Skilled administrator time from volunteers is not expensive
having said that we should be asking them to do more work than we could?

The 300 users and 600 accounts was actually on a Microsoft SQL server where
each database user was given their own account and password.   No record of
who was given which account was kept and over the years people came and
left.  I agree the admins were at fault but over the years there had been a
number of admins some had more expertise than others and to an outsider
knowing which knew what they were doing and which were basically bluffing
is not always easy.  We had probably fifty database administrators besides
my team all doing their own thing.  On the Microsoft SQL databases where we
used Windows operating system groups if someone left they were removed from
the group and we could check with their admin if they were part of the
section or not.

Microsoft SQL Server Express is a free limited version of SQL server that
may well do for many users.  Having said that the main advantage of SQL is
it is a standard so you should be able to connect practically anything to
it.

For development Microsoft visual studio is normally recognised as the gold
standard for development environments and remember Github is now owned by
Microsoft.

Cheerio John

On Fri, Jul 24, 2020, 17:03 Yves  wrote:

> But face it, philosophy is now also part of the discussion. And that's
> important.
> Yves
>
> Le 24 juillet 2020 20:50:22 GMT+02:00, john whelan 
> a écrit :
>>
>> If the database was smaller and less infrastructure was reliant on it
>> working I would agree with you that philosophically open source software
>> makes a lot of sense.
>>
>> However your argument is philosophical rather than logical.
>>
>> Note I'm merely requesting that the idea be examined.  I am not saying I
>> know what is best and all the things that need to be considered.
>>
>> Cheerio John
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 24, 2020, 14:35 Yves  wrote:
>>
>>> You're probably have some very good points when it comes to database
>>> management, but running an open map on open source software makes a lot of
>>> sense.
>>>
>>> Yves
>>>
>>> Le 24 juillet 2020 20:11:46 GMT+02:00, john whelan <
>>> jwhelan0...@gmail.com> a écrit :

 All this talk about databases and servers and sysadmins makes me wonder
 if we should reconsider our choice of operating systems and databases.

 At one time in the past I ran a Database support group that covered
 Sybase, Oracle, Microsoft SQL server, ingres and half a dozen other
 database systems.

 The UNIX side, some twenty or so servers ran software that in theory
 monitored the databases.  In practise it never really was upto date.
 Microsoft also had a very nice monitoring tool that monitored and suggested
 solutions.  I've dropped an example report below.

 We ran probably fifty SQL server database servers and I spent quite a
 lot of time maxing the memory on a server then consolidating servers.
 Towards the end we had far more data running on SQL server than we did on
 the UNIX side.  The servers were cheaper for the same performance for a
 start.

 Many of the UNIX based servers had default passwords set which made
 security a problem.  Fortunately they were protected by an air gap from the
 Internet.

 We had an IBM mainframe in the mix with an old database on it.  The
 programmers gradually retired.  I was lucky and identified another
 government department that was switching away from it and we managed to
 grab a handful of programmers etc from them.  Then a couple of years later
 that DBA retired.  You need to think of the future.  Will I be able to get
 knowledgeable staff if I need to?  We had to pay the company to run a
 special course in Ottawa and that was not cheap by the time we put the
 trainer up in a hotel and paid his airfare from the states.

 Initially the Microsoft side suffered from lack of security but they
 hardened the operating system and SQL server to a point where it was the
 most secure combination.  Microsoft SQL server was originally Sybase but
 got completely rewritten over time.

 On the support side my staff found that once we had set the permissions
 to an operating system group we just had to add people to the group.  For
 other databases each person had to be given permissions individually which
 made for finger problems.  The classic was one secure database that was
 supposed to be accessed 

Re: [OSM-talk] Heresy - pure discussion

[Yves]

But face it, philosophy is now also part of the discussion. And that's 
important.
Yves 

Le 24 juillet 2020 20:50:22 GMT+02:00, john whelan  a 
écrit :
>If the database was smaller and less infrastructure was reliant on it
>working I would agree with you that philosophically open source software
>makes a lot of sense.
>
>However your argument is philosophical rather than logical.
>
>Note I'm merely requesting that the idea be examined.  I am not saying I
>know what is best and all the things that need to be considered.
>
>Cheerio John
>
>On Fri, Jul 24, 2020, 14:35 Yves  wrote:
>
>> You're probably have some very good points when it comes to database
>> management, but running an open map on open source software makes a lot of
>> sense.
>>
>> Yves
>>
>> Le 24 juillet 2020 20:11:46 GMT+02:00, john whelan 
>> a écrit :
>>>
>>> All this talk about databases and servers and sysadmins makes me wonder
>>> if we should reconsider our choice of operating systems and databases.
>>>
>>> At one time in the past I ran a Database support group that covered
>>> Sybase, Oracle, Microsoft SQL server, ingres and half a dozen other
>>> database systems.
>>>
>>> The UNIX side, some twenty or so servers ran software that in theory
>>> monitored the databases.  In practise it never really was upto date.
>>> Microsoft also had a very nice monitoring tool that monitored and suggested
>>> solutions.  I've dropped an example report below.
>>>
>>> We ran probably fifty SQL server database servers and I spent quite a lot
>>> of time maxing the memory on a server then consolidating servers.  Towards
>>> the end we had far more data running on SQL server than we did on the UNIX
>>> side.  The servers were cheaper for the same performance for a start.
>>>
>>> Many of the UNIX based servers had default passwords set which made
>>> security a problem.  Fortunately they were protected by an air gap from the
>>> Internet.
>>>
>>> We had an IBM mainframe in the mix with an old database on it.  The
>>> programmers gradually retired.  I was lucky and identified another
>>> government department that was switching away from it and we managed to
>>> grab a handful of programmers etc from them.  Then a couple of years later
>>> that DBA retired.  You need to think of the future.  Will I be able to get
>>> knowledgeable staff if I need to?  We had to pay the company to run a
>>> special course in Ottawa and that was not cheap by the time we put the
>>> trainer up in a hotel and paid his airfare from the states.
>>>
>>> Initially the Microsoft side suffered from lack of security but they
>>> hardened the operating system and SQL server to a point where it was the
>>> most secure combination.  Microsoft SQL server was originally Sybase but
>>> got completely rewritten over time.
>>>
>>> On the support side my staff found that once we had set the permissions
>>> to an operating system group we just had to add people to the group.  For
>>> other databases each person had to be given permissions individually which
>>> made for finger problems.  The classic was one secure database that was
>>> supposed to be accessed operationally by 300 people. The problem was there
>>> were 600 accounts and no one knew which ones were needed or which could be
>>> deleted to reduce the surface area for attack.
>>>
>>> The integrated Microsoft monitoring system made reliability much better.
>>> There were far fewer problems on the Microsoft SQL side than on the UNIX /
>>> other database side and they were easier to fix.  One of my less expert
>>> database admins was shocked by the ease of which he caught the problem and
>>> corrected it by himself after an alert.  It gave him a bit of confidence as
>>> well.
>>>
>>> We changed to PostgreSQL in 2009.  The size of the database was much
>>> smaller then.
>>>
>>> One thing we noticed was on the database tuning side.  SQL server worked
>>> better if you just left it alone and didn't try to tune it.  It would check
>>> what was in memory rather than go out to the disk drives and that made a
>>> big difference to performance.  We measure disk access in milliseconds and
>>> memory access in nanoseconds.  One is ten thousand times smaller than the
>>> other.
>>>
>>> On the reliability side there is a set of guidelines that are basically
>>> common sense.  I forget the formal (ISO?) name but many organisations have
>>> seen considerable savings in money and in reliability by using them.  I met
>>> the English guy who originated them at a Microsoft presentation.  They can
>>> be applied to any environment.
>>>
>>> I think we either run the largest PostgreSQL database there is or it is
>>> close to it.  From a reliability point of view my professional hat says
>>> this is not where you want to be. You want to be more mainstream with
>>> someone else being on the bleeding edge.
>>>
>>> So the heresy would be look at the implications of changing to Microsoft
>>> SQL server in the cloud.  There is lots of documentation and given 

[Talk-es] Edit war about names in Basque speaking regions

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

one user has changed several street names from the Spanish form to a
combined "Basque / Spanish" form. This has angered another user and
there have been fights about how these streets should be named.

I have blocked the user "Hartz Beltza" in
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/3807 and requested that they
discuss the matter with the Spanish community before they continue. (I
have also requested from user H2Ox2 that he use better changeset comments.)

In OpenStreetMap it is very rare that we use dual languages in the
"name" tag but it *does* happen, for example in the bilingual
(Italian/German speaking) region of South Tyrol. There, both languages
are actually shown on the street signs. I don't know how this is in the
Basque regions. I am not saying you cannot do it but it required a broad
consensus that it is the right thing to do.

It is a decision that the Spanish community should be making, and the
DWG will then help enforce it.

Please continue this discussion in Spanish. I am providing an automated
translation of my message below.

Bye
Frederik
(DWG Ticket #202007241145)

Un usuario ha cambiado varios nombres de calles del formulario en
español a un formulario combinado "euskara / español". Esto ha enojado a
otro usuario y ha habido peleas sobre cómo se deben nombrar estas calles.

Bloqueé al usuario "Hartz Beltza" en
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/3807 y solicité que
discutieran el asunto con la comunidad española antes de continuar.
(También solicité al usuario H2Ox2 que utilice mejores comentarios de
conjunto de cambios).

En OpenStreetMap es muy raro que usemos dos idiomas en la etiqueta
"nombre", pero * sucede *, por ejemplo, en la región bilingüe (italiano
/ alemán) del Provincia autónoma de Bolzano. Allí, ambos idiomas se
muestran en las señales de tráfico. No sé cómo es esto en las regiones
vascas. No digo que no pueda hacerlo, pero requirió un amplio consenso
de que es lo correcto.

Es una decisión que debe tomar la comunidad española, y el DWG ayudará a
hacerla cumplir.

Por favor continúe esta discusión en español.

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Heresy - pure discussion

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Note: I am not a sysadmin. But overall I am missing any decent reasons to make 
such move.
Maybe there is some reason for that, but nothing from what you presented 
appears to be
a good reason.

Frankly, if company had major problem with production severs using default 
passwords,
uncontrolled accounts on a critical database, and "RAM is faster that hard 
drive" was a 
discovery and Munin installation was too hard then I suspect that UNIX was not 
root cause
of the problems.

Jul 24, 2020, 20:50 by jwhelan0...@gmail.com:

> If the database was smaller and less infrastructure was reliant on it working 
> I would agree with you that philosophically open source software makes a lot 
> of sense.
>
And why it is supposed to not make sense just because scale is bigger?

> However your argument is philosophical rather than logical.
>
And? I consider running OSM infrastructure on open source software as a good 
thing
in itself.

>
> Note I'm merely requesting that the idea be examined.  I am not saying I know 
> what is best and all the things that need to be considered.
>
Given that you mention things such as 
"Many of the UNIX based servers had default passwords set which made security a 
problem."
as a problem, I am dubious about quality of this advise.

I am pretty sure that we have no problems of this kind, and even if we would 
have, how 
switching to Windows would help?

"You need to think of the future.  Will I be able to get knowledgeable staff if 
I need to?" 
Are you claiming that there is serious risks that UNIX sysadmins will be 
unavailable and
Windows ones will be available?

"I think we either run the largest PostgreSQL database there is or it is close 
to it."
I am pretty sure that we are far from largest PostgreSQL, full history 
compressed
is just 86GB, uncompressed is just 139 GB ( 
https://planet.osm.org/planet/full-history/ )



> Cheerio John
>
> On Fri, Jul 24, 2020, 14:35 Yves <> y...@mailbox.org> > wrote:
>
>> You're probably have some very good points when it comes to database 
>> management, but running an open map on open source software makes a lot of 
>> sense.
>>
>> Yves 
>>
>> Le 24 juillet 2020 20:11:46 GMT+02:00, john whelan <>> 
>> jwhelan0...@gmail.com>> > a écrit :
>>
>>> All this talk about databases and servers and sysadmins makes me wonder if 
>>> we should reconsider our choice of operating systems and databases.
>>>
>>> At one time in the past I ran a Database support group that covered Sybase, 
>>> Oracle, Microsoft SQL server, ingres and half a dozen other database 
>>> systems.
>>>
>>> The UNIX side, some twenty or so servers ran software that in theory 
>>> monitored the databases.  In practise it never really was upto date.  
>>> Microsoft also had a very nice monitoring tool that monitored and suggested 
>>> solutions.  I've dropped an example report below.
>>>
>>> We ran probably fifty SQL server database servers and I spent quite a lot 
>>> of time maxing the memory on a server then consolidating servers.  Towards 
>>> the end we had far more data running on SQL server than we did on the UNIX 
>>> side.  The servers were cheaper for the same performance for a start.
>>>
>>> Many of the UNIX based servers had default passwords set which made 
>>> security a problem.  Fortunately they were protected by an air gap from the 
>>> Internet.
>>>
>>> We had an IBM mainframe in the mix with an old database on it.  The 
>>> programmers gradually retired.  I was lucky and identified another 
>>> government department that was switching away from it and we managed to 
>>> grab a handful of programmers etc from them.  Then a couple of years later 
>>> that DBA retired.  You need to think of the future.  Will I be able to get 
>>> knowledgeable staff if I need to?  We had to pay the company to run a 
>>> special course in Ottawa and that was not cheap by the time we put the 
>>> trainer up in a hotel and paid his airfare from the states.
>>>
>>> Initially the Microsoft side suffered from lack of security but they 
>>> hardened the operating system and SQL server to a point where it was the 
>>> most secure combination.  Microsoft SQL server was originally Sybase but 
>>> got completely rewritten over time.
>>>
>>> On the support side my staff found that once we had set the permissions to 
>>> an operating system group we just had to add people to the group.  For 
>>> other databases each person had to be given permissions individually which 
>>> made for finger problems.  The classic was one secure database that was 
>>> supposed to be accessed operationally by 300 people. The problem was there 
>>> were 600 accounts and no one knew which ones were needed or which could be 
>>> deleted to reduce the surface area for attack.
>>>
>>>
>>> The integrated Microsoft monitoring system made reliability much better.  
>>> There were far fewer problems on the Microsoft SQL side than on the UNIX / 
>>> other database side and they were easier to fix.  One of my less expert 
>>> database 

Re: [OSM-talk] Heresy - pure discussion

[Tomas Straupis]

2020-07-24, pn, 21:14 john whelan rašė:
> I think we either run the largest PostgreSQL database there is or it is close 
> to it.

  Why do you think so? To my knowledge there are mch larger
PostgreSQL databases going into petabytes.

  Can you be more specific as to what exactly was better in MSSQL
compared to PostgreSQL and in which year that was the case?

  If the database was better off with people not touching it, it gives
my doubts about admins as machine will never know the full context of
its operation (closed system theory), only people can know that,
therefore only people can make final decisions, machines can only help
them to do so by pin-pointing some problems and offering solutions.

  According to my discussions with other IT managers quite a number
are considering ditching Microsoft (and Oracle) for much more
customisable/adaptable options of using PostgreSQL.

  Also you would have to understand that switching to MSSQL would not
only mean rewriting quite a number of tools, but it would also mean
everybody who would like to run OSM server on their own hardware would
have to pay Microsoft. I highly doubt that it would be smart in
today's world.

-- 
Tomas

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[Talk-us] Fall Virtual Event Poll

[Maggie Cawley]

OSM US is planning a fall virtual event and we'd love your feedback! Please
take a minute to complete this poll
https://osmus.wufoo.com/forms/osm-us-virtual-event-poll/

Interested in sponsoring or joining the planning committee? Reach out. Note
that this event will NOT replace SOTMUS!


*Maggie Cawley*
Executive Director
OpenStreetMap US
www.openstreetmap.us
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Re: [OSM-talk] Heresy - pure discussion

[john whelan]

If the database was smaller and less infrastructure was reliant on it
working I would agree with you that philosophically open source software
makes a lot of sense.

However your argument is philosophical rather than logical.

Note I'm merely requesting that the idea be examined.  I am not saying I
know what is best and all the things that need to be considered.

Cheerio John

On Fri, Jul 24, 2020, 14:35 Yves  wrote:

> You're probably have some very good points when it comes to database
> management, but running an open map on open source software makes a lot of
> sense.
>
> Yves
>
> Le 24 juillet 2020 20:11:46 GMT+02:00, john whelan 
> a écrit :
>>
>> All this talk about databases and servers and sysadmins makes me wonder
>> if we should reconsider our choice of operating systems and databases.
>>
>> At one time in the past I ran a Database support group that covered
>> Sybase, Oracle, Microsoft SQL server, ingres and half a dozen other
>> database systems.
>>
>> The UNIX side, some twenty or so servers ran software that in theory
>> monitored the databases.  In practise it never really was upto date.
>> Microsoft also had a very nice monitoring tool that monitored and suggested
>> solutions.  I've dropped an example report below.
>>
>> We ran probably fifty SQL server database servers and I spent quite a lot
>> of time maxing the memory on a server then consolidating servers.  Towards
>> the end we had far more data running on SQL server than we did on the UNIX
>> side.  The servers were cheaper for the same performance for a start.
>>
>> Many of the UNIX based servers had default passwords set which made
>> security a problem.  Fortunately they were protected by an air gap from the
>> Internet.
>>
>> We had an IBM mainframe in the mix with an old database on it.  The
>> programmers gradually retired.  I was lucky and identified another
>> government department that was switching away from it and we managed to
>> grab a handful of programmers etc from them.  Then a couple of years later
>> that DBA retired.  You need to think of the future.  Will I be able to get
>> knowledgeable staff if I need to?  We had to pay the company to run a
>> special course in Ottawa and that was not cheap by the time we put the
>> trainer up in a hotel and paid his airfare from the states.
>>
>> Initially the Microsoft side suffered from lack of security but they
>> hardened the operating system and SQL server to a point where it was the
>> most secure combination.  Microsoft SQL server was originally Sybase but
>> got completely rewritten over time.
>>
>> On the support side my staff found that once we had set the permissions
>> to an operating system group we just had to add people to the group.  For
>> other databases each person had to be given permissions individually which
>> made for finger problems.  The classic was one secure database that was
>> supposed to be accessed operationally by 300 people. The problem was there
>> were 600 accounts and no one knew which ones were needed or which could be
>> deleted to reduce the surface area for attack.
>>
>> The integrated Microsoft monitoring system made reliability much better.
>> There were far fewer problems on the Microsoft SQL side than on the UNIX /
>> other database side and they were easier to fix.  One of my less expert
>> database admins was shocked by the ease of which he caught the problem and
>> corrected it by himself after an alert.  It gave him a bit of confidence as
>> well.
>>
>> We changed to PostgreSQL in 2009.  The size of the database was much
>> smaller then.
>>
>> One thing we noticed was on the database tuning side.  SQL server worked
>> better if you just left it alone and didn't try to tune it.  It would check
>> what was in memory rather than go out to the disk drives and that made a
>> big difference to performance.  We measure disk access in milliseconds and
>> memory access in nanoseconds.  One is ten thousand times smaller than the
>> other.
>>
>> On the reliability side there is a set of guidelines that are basically
>> common sense.  I forget the formal (ISO?) name but many organisations have
>> seen considerable savings in money and in reliability by using them.  I met
>> the English guy who originated them at a Microsoft presentation.  They can
>> be applied to any environment.
>>
>> I think we either run the largest PostgreSQL database there is or it is
>> close to it.  From a reliability point of view my professional hat says
>> this is not where you want to be. You want to be more mainstream with
>> someone else being on the bleeding edge.
>>
>> So the heresy would be look at the implications of changing to Microsoft
>> SQL server in the cloud.  There is lots of documentation and given that
>> Microsoft has worked closely with us in the past the cost might not be too
>> bad.  I do understand that we have a large investment in our current set up
>> both as an organisation and personally and many will consider this as
>> heresy but 

Re: [OSM-talk] Heresy - pure discussion

[Yves]

You're probably have some very good points when it comes to database 
management, but running an open map on open source software makes a lot of 
sense.

Yves 

Le 24 juillet 2020 20:11:46 GMT+02:00, john whelan  a 
écrit :
>All this talk about databases and servers and sysadmins makes me wonder if
>we should reconsider our choice of operating systems and databases.
>
>At one time in the past I ran a Database support group that covered Sybase,
>Oracle, Microsoft SQL server, ingres and half a dozen other database
>systems.
>
>The UNIX side, some twenty or so servers ran software that in theory
>monitored the databases.  In practise it never really was upto date.
>Microsoft also had a very nice monitoring tool that monitored and suggested
>solutions.  I've dropped an example report below.
>
>We ran probably fifty SQL server database servers and I spent quite a lot
>of time maxing the memory on a server then consolidating servers.  Towards
>the end we had far more data running on SQL server than we did on the UNIX
>side.  The servers were cheaper for the same performance for a start.
>
>Many of the UNIX based servers had default passwords set which made
>security a problem.  Fortunately they were protected by an air gap from the
>Internet.
>
>We had an IBM mainframe in the mix with an old database on it.  The
>programmers gradually retired.  I was lucky and identified another
>government department that was switching away from it and we managed to
>grab a handful of programmers etc from them.  Then a couple of years later
>that DBA retired.  You need to think of the future.  Will I be able to get
>knowledgeable staff if I need to?  We had to pay the company to run a
>special course in Ottawa and that was not cheap by the time we put the
>trainer up in a hotel and paid his airfare from the states.
>
>Initially the Microsoft side suffered from lack of security but they
>hardened the operating system and SQL server to a point where it was the
>most secure combination.  Microsoft SQL server was originally Sybase but
>got completely rewritten over time.
>
>On the support side my staff found that once we had set the permissions to
>an operating system group we just had to add people to the group.  For
>other databases each person had to be given permissions individually which
>made for finger problems.  The classic was one secure database that was
>supposed to be accessed operationally by 300 people. The problem was there
>were 600 accounts and no one knew which ones were needed or which could be
>deleted to reduce the surface area for attack.
>
>The integrated Microsoft monitoring system made reliability much better.
>There were far fewer problems on the Microsoft SQL side than on the UNIX /
>other database side and they were easier to fix.  One of my less expert
>database admins was shocked by the ease of which he caught the problem and
>corrected it by himself after an alert.  It gave him a bit of confidence as
>well.
>
>We changed to PostgreSQL in 2009.  The size of the database was much
>smaller then.
>
>One thing we noticed was on the database tuning side.  SQL server worked
>better if you just left it alone and didn't try to tune it.  It would check
>what was in memory rather than go out to the disk drives and that made a
>big difference to performance.  We measure disk access in milliseconds and
>memory access in nanoseconds.  One is ten thousand times smaller than the
>other.
>
>On the reliability side there is a set of guidelines that are basically
>common sense.  I forget the formal (ISO?) name but many organisations have
>seen considerable savings in money and in reliability by using them.  I met
>the English guy who originated them at a Microsoft presentation.  They can
>be applied to any environment.
>
>I think we either run the largest PostgreSQL database there is or it is
>close to it.  From a reliability point of view my professional hat says
>this is not where you want to be. You want to be more mainstream with
>someone else being on the bleeding edge.
>
>So the heresy would be look at the implications of changing to Microsoft
>SQL server in the cloud.  There is lots of documentation and given that
>Microsoft has worked closely with us in the past the cost might not be too
>bad.  I do understand that we have a large investment in our current set up
>both as an organisation and personally and many will consider this as
>heresy but now is probably the time to think about it.
>
>Cheerio John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Your message to rolland.desroc...@motioncares.ca couldn't be delivered.
>Rolland.desrocher wasn't found at motioncares.ca.
>jwhelan0112 Office 365 Rolland.desrocher
>*Action Required*
>Recipient
>
>
>
>
>
>Unknown To address
>
>
>How to Fix It
>The address may be misspelled or may not exist. Try one or more of the
>following:
>
>   - Send the message again following these steps: In Outlook, open this
>   non-delivery report (NDR) and choose *Send Again* from the Report
>   ribbon. In Outlook 

[OSM-talk] Heresy - pure discussion

[john whelan]

All this talk about databases and servers and sysadmins makes me wonder if
we should reconsider our choice of operating systems and databases.

At one time in the past I ran a Database support group that covered Sybase,
Oracle, Microsoft SQL server, ingres and half a dozen other database
systems.

The UNIX side, some twenty or so servers ran software that in theory
monitored the databases.  In practise it never really was upto date.
Microsoft also had a very nice monitoring tool that monitored and suggested
solutions.  I've dropped an example report below.

We ran probably fifty SQL server database servers and I spent quite a lot
of time maxing the memory on a server then consolidating servers.  Towards
the end we had far more data running on SQL server than we did on the UNIX
side.  The servers were cheaper for the same performance for a start.

Many of the UNIX based servers had default passwords set which made
security a problem.  Fortunately they were protected by an air gap from the
Internet.

We had an IBM mainframe in the mix with an old database on it.  The
programmers gradually retired.  I was lucky and identified another
government department that was switching away from it and we managed to
grab a handful of programmers etc from them.  Then a couple of years later
that DBA retired.  You need to think of the future.  Will I be able to get
knowledgeable staff if I need to?  We had to pay the company to run a
special course in Ottawa and that was not cheap by the time we put the
trainer up in a hotel and paid his airfare from the states.

Initially the Microsoft side suffered from lack of security but they
hardened the operating system and SQL server to a point where it was the
most secure combination.  Microsoft SQL server was originally Sybase but
got completely rewritten over time.

On the support side my staff found that once we had set the permissions to
an operating system group we just had to add people to the group.  For
other databases each person had to be given permissions individually which
made for finger problems.  The classic was one secure database that was
supposed to be accessed operationally by 300 people. The problem was there
were 600 accounts and no one knew which ones were needed or which could be
deleted to reduce the surface area for attack.

The integrated Microsoft monitoring system made reliability much better.
There were far fewer problems on the Microsoft SQL side than on the UNIX /
other database side and they were easier to fix.  One of my less expert
database admins was shocked by the ease of which he caught the problem and
corrected it by himself after an alert.  It gave him a bit of confidence as
well.

We changed to PostgreSQL in 2009.  The size of the database was much
smaller then.

One thing we noticed was on the database tuning side.  SQL server worked
better if you just left it alone and didn't try to tune it.  It would check
what was in memory rather than go out to the disk drives and that made a
big difference to performance.  We measure disk access in milliseconds and
memory access in nanoseconds.  One is ten thousand times smaller than the
other.

On the reliability side there is a set of guidelines that are basically
common sense.  I forget the formal (ISO?) name but many organisations have
seen considerable savings in money and in reliability by using them.  I met
the English guy who originated them at a Microsoft presentation.  They can
be applied to any environment.

I think we either run the largest PostgreSQL database there is or it is
close to it.  From a reliability point of view my professional hat says
this is not where you want to be. You want to be more mainstream with
someone else being on the bleeding edge.

So the heresy would be look at the implications of changing to Microsoft
SQL server in the cloud.  There is lots of documentation and given that
Microsoft has worked closely with us in the past the cost might not be too
bad.  I do understand that we have a large investment in our current set up
both as an organisation and personally and many will consider this as
heresy but now is probably the time to think about it.

Cheerio John









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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Comment qualifier un Chaussidou

[Nicolas Dumoulin]

Ok, merci pour la réponse. J'avais parcouru la page mais manqué cette mention.
Bon tant pis pour le tag spécifique, la combinaison est peut-être en effet 
suffisamment explicite.
Bon weekend
Nicolas

Le 23 juillet 2020 17:46:35 GMT+02:00, PanierAvide  a 
écrit :
>Bonjour,
>
>Voir ici, le cas L3 : 
>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FR:Bicycle#Bandes_cyclables
>
>Les tags : highway=* + cycleway=lane + lanes=1 + oneway=no
>
>Cordialement,
>
>Adrien P.
>
>Le 23/07/2020 à 17:42, Nicolas Dumoulin a écrit :
>> Salut :-)
>>
>> Je me demande comment qualifier un chaussidou, aussi appelé "Chaussée
>
>> à Voie Centrale Banalisée" (CVCB) décrite ici par exemple : 
>> https://www.cc37.org/chaussee-a-voie-centrale-banalisee-chaucidou/
>>
>> Une recherche de "chaussidou" sur taginfo ne me renvoie rien à part 
>> des mentions en attribut "note". Ça me semblerait intéressant de 
>> qualifier ce genre d'aménagement pour être plus précis et permettre 
>> une vue générale de la présence de cet aménagement.
>>
>> Ça ne semble bien sûr pas opportun d'utiliser un highway=* spécifique
>
>> ni d'omettre les tags "cycleway=*" mais d'ajouter un complément genre
>
>> highway:chaussidou=yes ou bien zone:chaussidou=yes. Pour rappel, ce 
>> type d'aménagement n'est pas spécifiquement Français, donc pas de
>"FR:".
>>
>> Qu'en pensez-vous ?
>>
>> P.S. : Ça faisait longtemps que je n'étais pas passé sur cette liste,
>
>> j'espère que vous allez bien. En tout cas, je constate qu'OSM
>continue 
>> à se faire sa place, quelle réjouissance pour un projet libre. 
>> Portez-vous bien.
>>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Using OSM as a base for my own fictional map?

[Chris Hill]

On 24/07/2020 16:59, Martin Wynne wrote:

I'm looking for some pointers.

I have a dedicated server (located in Ohio, I'm in UK) with full 
controls. I'm fairly confident with web sites and javascript (and 
geometry), but I'm entirely new to online mapping (apart from editing 
OSM in the iD editor).


What I want to do is use OSM as a base map for small areas of the UK, 
but remove entirely all the OSM-derived railway tracks, and replace 
them with my own data. This data would be essentially fictional, not 
based on or derived from anything which is there now. I want to be 
able to create tiles zoomed in far enough to see individual rails and 
sleepers, with each rail as two separate rail edges.


Where would I start to do that? How would I deal with attribution, 
warning unsuspecting users that everything is derived from OSM (and 
can be relied on to the same extent, if any, as any other OSM) EXCEPT 
the railway tracks, which can't?


Many thanks for any help/ideas/suggestions.


I have done this a few times for my own maps. For a small area I 
download the area into JOSM (so you need to setup and learn JOSM). This 
allows you to save an area as an .osm file on your local PC. I then 
remove, change and add anything I need and save it to the .osm file 
again. The crucial thing is to avoid uploading the edited data to the 
OSM server, so I disable my credentials in JOSM so that uploads won't 
work. You can load, edit and save many times of course to get what you want.


When the map data is how I want it I load the .osm file into a local 
database with osm2pgsql (the normal process for making local map tiles) 
and go through a rendering process. I still use TileMill, but there are 
various other options.


This allows you to invent or subvert any tagging regime you want. You 
can use any existing OSM data but also remove (or ignore in the render) 
anything you don't want. You can add anything else that suits you.


The map tiles that result from the rendering process can be uploaded to 
the usual map tile directory structure on your web-facing server and 
then you will need a web page with map code on it to display the tiles. 
I always use Leafletjs which is powerful and easy to use if you know 
your way around Javascript.


You need to credit OSM in the normal way for any published map - 
Leafletjs helps you add a suitable credit on a web page.


Making a map that lets you zoom in so far to be able to see rails and 
sleepers on a track is a tall order - I think Leafletjs handles up to 
Zoom level 22, but I'm not sure that will show enough detail. At that 
level renders of even small areas starts to make very large numbers of 
tiles.


I have used this (or very similar) techniques to make map for temporary 
events such as fairs, fêtes and festivals as well as a planned scheme of 
flood defences and a mock up of a tidal barrier.


HTH

cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)


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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed changes in rendering of diplomatic offices

[Christoph Hormann]

On Friday 24 July 2020, Daniel Koc4� wrote:
>
> My concern is that such change would invite automated mass edits,
> because half of these objects still carry the old tag, which is a lot
> for such common and well known feature IMO:

Small clarification here:  There are currently 6152 features with tag 
amenity=embassy - 1541 of which already have an office=diplomatic tag 
in addition.  That leaves 4611 features that only have the old style 
tagging.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Talk-es] Farmacias de guardia

[Nicolás Vieites Sueiro]

Buenas tardes,

Desconozco si tenemos permiso para eso que pretendes hacer, no me suena ninguna 
autorización por parte de ningún colegio oficial. ¿Estás seguro de que esos 
datos podemos utilizarlos (es decir, que tenemos permiso o que son 
completamente abiertos)?

Get Outlook for Android


From: Angel 
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2020 6:26:00 PM
To: talk-es@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: [Talk-es] Farmacias de guardia

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512


Hola.

Estoy intentando completar las farmacias de la población donde vivo:
teléfono, horarios, email cuando lo tienen, insertando farmacias que no
están, todo con la lista de farmacias del colegio oficial.

Cuando hago consultas, puedo ver las que están abiertas o el horario de
apertura, pero claro a determinadas horas salen todas cerradas. Me
gustaría poder hacer una llamada a la web del colegio oficial para que
se puedan consultar las que están de guardia; bueno no es exacto decir
que me gustaría, si no que es lo que se me ha ocurrido, en cualquier
caso, no sé como hacerlo: un texto con el enlace añadido al horario, por
ejemplo, tampoco sé si funcionaría o incluso si hay ya algo establecido.

Saludos y gracias de antemano
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[OSM-talk] Proposed changes in rendering of diplomatic offices

[Daniel Koć]

Hi,

There is a proposition to change rendering of diplomatic offices on OSM
Carto style (which is used for generating default map layer on OSM.org).
On the one hand it introduces flag symbols for a new tagging, but on the
other it would immediately stop rendering old, deprecated tag
(amenity=embassy):

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/4168

My concern is that such change would invite automated mass edits,
because half of these objects still carry the old tag, which is a lot
for such common and well known feature IMO:

https://taghistory.raifer.tech/#***/amenity/embassy&***/office/diplomatic

I think it's better for example to wait until the old tagging will pass
much lower limit (I propose 2k - the lower amount we consider worth
rendering in most of the cases) or just add new icons without removing
rendering for the old tag (it sholud be removed when it drops to a low
level).

What solution would you propose there?


-- 
"Holy mother forking shirt balls!" [E. Shellstrop]


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[Talk-es] Farmacias de guardia

[Angel]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512


Hola.

Estoy intentando completar las farmacias de la población donde vivo:
teléfono, horarios, email cuando lo tienen, insertando farmacias que no
están, todo con la lista de farmacias del colegio oficial.

Cuando hago consultas, puedo ver las que están abiertas o el horario de
apertura, pero claro a determinadas horas salen todas cerradas. Me
gustaría poder hacer una llamada a la web del colegio oficial para que
se puedan consultar las que están de guardia; bueno no es exacto decir
que me gustaría, si no que es lo que se me ha ocurrido, en cualquier
caso, no sé como hacerlo: un texto con el enlace añadido al horario, por
ejemplo, tampoco sé si funcionaría o incluso si hay ya algo establecido.

Saludos y gracias de antemano
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Re: [Talk-GB] Using OSM as a base for my own fictional map?

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB]

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Ika-chan!/Fantasy_maps_with_OSM_software

looks useful despite disclaimer on top

 finds other usefully
looking materials

In general, main technical issues are
exactly the same as with rendering
unmodified OSM data

I would not worry too much about
people thinking that railway map
is representing real railways

You would still need to attribute
OpenStreetMap
and attribution location may be a good
place to note that tracks are fictional


24 Jul 2020, 17:59 by mar...@templot.com:

> I'm looking for some pointers.
>
> I have a dedicated server (located in Ohio, I'm in UK) with full controls. 
> I'm fairly confident with web sites and javascript (and geometry), but I'm 
> entirely new to online mapping (apart from editing OSM in the iD editor).
>
> What I want to do is use OSM as a base map for small areas of the UK, but 
> remove entirely all the OSM-derived railway tracks, and replace them with my 
> own data. This data would be essentially fictional, not based on or derived 
> from anything which is there now. I want to be able to create tiles zoomed in 
> far enough to see individual rails and sleepers, with each rail as two 
> separate rail edges.
>
> Where would I start to do that? How would I deal with attribution, warning 
> unsuspecting users that everything is derived from OSM (and can be relied on 
> to the same extent, if any, as any other OSM) EXCEPT the railway tracks, 
> which can't?
>
> Many thanks for any help/ideas/suggestions.
>
> cheers,
>
> Martin.
>
> ___
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>

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[Talk-es] Espacios municipales

[Angel]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Hola.

He visto que la junta de distrito donde vivo está todavía en su
anterior ubicación. Tengo más o menos claro como etiquetarla en la
ubicación vigente.

Pero en la anterior ubicación sigue existiendo un local municipal,
polivalente se llama, donde tienen sede algunas asociaciones, y ese si
que no sé como etiquetarlo. Prestan servicios municipales, pero son
asociaciones privadas sin ánimo de lucro.
Cerca de esas instalaciones hay otro espacio municipal que sí esta
denominado como centro cívico y tiene allí sede asociaciones que no
prestan servicios municipales: asociaciones deportivas, de vecinos y así
.

Saludos y gracias de antemano
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[Talk-GB] Using OSM as a base for my own fictional map?

[Martin Wynne]

I'm looking for some pointers.

I have a dedicated server (located in Ohio, I'm in UK) with full 
controls. I'm fairly confident with web sites and javascript (and 
geometry), but I'm entirely new to online mapping (apart from editing 
OSM in the iD editor).


What I want to do is use OSM as a base map for small areas of the UK, 
but remove entirely all the OSM-derived railway tracks, and replace them 
with my own data. This data would be essentially fictional, not based on 
or derived from anything which is there now. I want to be able to create 
tiles zoomed in far enough to see individual rails and sleepers, with 
each rail as two separate rail edges.


Where would I start to do that? How would I deal with attribution, 
warning unsuspecting users that everything is derived from OSM (and can 
be relied on to the same extent, if any, as any other OSM) EXCEPT the 
railway tracks, which can't?


Many thanks for any help/ideas/suggestions.

cheers,

Martin.

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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Segmentation des maisons

[Philippe Verdy]

Quand j'en vois, je réunit les polygones découpés arbitrairement (souvent
en diagonale créant des segments qui ne correspondent à rien en réalité.
Oui c'est sans doute un artefact de l'ancien découpage cadastral (avant que
les parcelles soient réunies et redécoupées différemment par un lotisseur,
ou encore des extensions de parcelles acquises chez un voisin ou sur une
ancienne voie publique afin d'agrandir ensuite, mais l'agrandissement ne
suit pas structurellement cet ancien découpage).
Dans OSM on ne fait pas un plan cadastral. Mais les traits de délimitation
du cadastre ont pu être confondus avec des bordures de bâtiments.
En revanche je laisse les délimitations sans murs (jaune pâle dans le
cadastre). Au passage j'essaye de réaligner avec l'imagerie, car le
placement est trop approximatif, et parfois l'orientation même du bâtiment
(ça sent le tracé à la louche sur une base indicative ou sur une mauvaise
lecture d'un plan de construction pour un permis de construire ou
d'aménager, ne tenant pas compte non plus des adaptations qui ont pu être
faites avec le terrain (présence de roches non déplaçables, demandes
d'éloignement par un voisin, présence d'arbres à conserver...)
Rarement mais parfois quand même, la surface réelle du bâtiment est très
loin de la réalité (sous-déclaration possible), ou le bâtiment n'est plus
là depuis longtemps, et il en manque souvent ça et là (notamment hors des
batiments les plus proches et les plus visibles depuis la voie publique.
Dans les fermes, nombre de batiments préfabriqués ou granges ne sont plus
là et ont été reconstruites à côté, l'ancien bâtiment ayant été mis à terre
(on en voit parfois encore la trace au sol).
si je peux j'essaye de remonter le temps dans l'imagerie pour confirmer les
doutes. Et je regarde la fraîcheur de l'imagerie (elle est presque toute le
temps plus récente que le cadastre et c'est presque toujours le cas avec
l'imagerie haute résolution).

De quoi se demander à quoi sert encore le cadastre, en tout cas peut-être
pour les parcelles, mais les bâtiments sont souvent assez douteux, et comme
tracés à la va-vite, comme si un adjoint au maire venait demander à un
secrétaire de mairie de lancer le logiciel SIG (peut-être ancien et mal
fichu et pas très convivial) et tracer à peu près ce qu'il a vu ou ce qu'on
lui a demandé, sans appui de la moindre imagerie ou sur la base estimée
d'un plan de permis de construire en guidant oralement au dessus de
l'épaule, sans outil réellement adapté:

"c'est bien là? un peu plus à droite? Oui ça rira..." (j'ai entendu ce
genre de conversation dans la mairie de ma commune en attendant que la
secrétaire de mairie soit libre, je n'ai pas regardé le logiciel utilisé
mais ça semblait assez lourd et difficile à utiliser, à voir comment la
secrétaire de mairie pestait contre son ordinateur et cherchait comment
faire une opération simple; allez dans une mairie demander une copie d'un
plan cadastral pour ensuite déposer une demande de permis de
construire/aménager/démolir, et voyez le temps que ça prend, au mieux on
vous dira de repasser plus tard car on voit bien que ça leur prend du
temps, ou on vous demandera de fournir une enveloppe timbrée pour recevoir
le plan par courrier une semaine ou quinze jours après, la personne
"qualifié" sachant utiliser le logiciel n'étant pas là...).

Les plans des lotisseurs en revanche sont souvent mieux faits, ils font
appel à des géomètres qualifiés pour que les lots vendus soient ensuite
incontestables. Mais j'imagine qu'ils arrachent aussi les cheveux quand ils
vont voir que le plan cadastral initial ne correspond pas vraiment aux
parcelles qu'ils comptaient aménager et lotir et ça fera des allées et
venues en mairie pour faire corriger ou approuver les nouveaux relevés et
les faire admettre aussi aux exploitants d'infrastructures (assainissement,
réseaux...) pour que tout le monde s'entende et n'aille pas provoquer des
coupures chez les voisins. Parfois les exploitants sont eux-même incapables
de situer précisément leurs installations, ils font alors venir des
métreurs pour relever les points de passage réels et marquer les réseaux au
sol avec des bombes de peinture colorée (jaune=gaz, bleu=eau,
rouge=électricité, vert=télécommunications), histoire de savoir où et
comment ils vont creuser, et parer aux coupures en mettant en place des
contournements provisoires ou un mode de distribution alternatif, une
citerne mobile et une pompe pour les eaux usées si le chantier doit durer
plus que heures ou jours...

Ceci dit ces plans métrés de professionnels s'appuient sur la triangulation
générale existante de la commune, pas toujours très bien alignée. On voit
des distorsions importantes sur certains bâtiments à cheval sur
plusieurs communes (notamment des bâtiments industriels dans des ZAC
intercommunales, mais aussi les grands bâtiments des zones commerciales,
souvent préfabriqués, et qui évoluent souvent). Les communes peuvent exiger
de tels métrages, mais pas toujours, et même sur cette 

Re: [Talk-GB] Surveying rural buildings

[Andy Townsend]

On 24/07/2020 14:41, Mark Goodge wrote:



On 24/07/2020 13:20, Martin Wynne wrote:



Most of them go back to OS Explorer when they find UK public rights 
of way are not shown in different colours on the OSM standard map.



This is one of the reasons why it would be nice to have a UK-specific 
stylesheet for OSM. The data is there, so there's no reason why it 
cant be rendered


That's exactly what https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html * 
does.  Nick's already mentioned https://www.free-map.org.uk/ , so you've 
now got a couple of choices - it wouldn't surprise me if there are others!


Best Regards,

Andy

* yes, I look after that site and map style.  See the "about" link at 
the top for more info; and "changelog" for links to the source of all 
the components.




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Re: [Talk-GB] Surveying rural buildings

[Andy G Wood]

On Friday, 24 July 2020 14:41:08 BST Mark Goodge wrote:
> On 24/07/2020 13:20, Martin Wynne wrote:
> >   > but most people I know aren't aware of OSM.
> >
> > I've been trying to persuade country-walking groups to use OSM. There is
> > a lot of useful stuff there not shown on OS Explorer -- stiles, kissing
> > gates, benches, bus stops, all pubs, cafes, etc. It's a lot more
> > up-to-date, and if they find anything missing they can add it themselves
> > for the benefit of others.
> >
> > Most of them go back to OS Explorer when they find UK public rights of
> > way are not shown in different colours on the OSM standard map.
>
> Yes; this is an issue specifically for map users on foot. With roads,
> the question of legality is much less of an issue - almost all roads of
> any significance are public highways, and those that are not are usually
> clearly marked as such. But with footpaths and farm tracks in open
> countryside, there is often no obvious visual distinction, and yet the
> legality is a critical factor to users. This is an area in which OS maps
> are much more useful to walkers.

Not convinced that this is a significant web rendering issue.  For me, saving
battery by not being on-line all the time is a major driver when hiking.
Swapping to OsmAnd gives all the benefits of OSM maps and many path/footpath
rendering options.

Andy.



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Re: [Talk-GB] Surveying rural buildings

[Nick Whitelegg]

Re a "UK walking style" there is Freemap, my own (long-standing) project, which 
has gone through a number of ups and downs (mostly due to hosting difficulties 
and lack of time to work on it) but has had a number of style improvements this 
year due to having more time than expected to work on it. It's at 
https://www.free-map.org.uk.

It aims to distinguish between the different types of walking routes, in 
particular public rights of way and permissive paths.

It doesn't use the standard Mapnik approach, but kothic.js, which is a 
client-side rendering library which takes GeoJSON data and MapCSS compiled into 
JavaScript.

Nick


From: Mark Goodge 
Sent: 24 July 2020 14:41
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Surveying rural buildings



On 24/07/2020 13:20, Martin Wynne wrote:
>   > but most people I know aren't aware of OSM.
>
> I've been trying to persuade country-walking groups to use OSM. There is
> a lot of useful stuff there not shown on OS Explorer -- stiles, kissing
> gates, benches, bus stops, all pubs, cafes, etc. It's a lot more
> up-to-date, and if they find anything missing they can add it themselves
> for the benefit of others.
>
> Most of them go back to OS Explorer when they find UK public rights of
> way are not shown in different colours on the OSM standard map.

Yes; this is an issue specifically for map users on foot. With roads,
the question of legality is much less of an issue - almost all roads of
any significance are public highways, and those that are not are usually
clearly marked as such. But with footpaths and farm tracks in open
countryside, there is often no obvious visual distinction, and yet the
legality is a critical factor to users. This is an area in which OS maps
are much more useful to walkers.

On the other hand, one of the areas where OSM is better than OS is that
we map permissive paths, which OS tends not to unless they are big
enough to also be usable by vehicles (and even then, it doesn't have any
means of indicating permission).

This is one of the reasons why it would be nice to have a UK-specific
stylesheet for OSM. The data is there, so there's no reason why it cant
be rendered. Or, alternatively, a dedicated "outdoors" stylesheet which
focusses on hiking, biking, etc.

Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] Surveying rural buildings

[Mark Goodge]

On 24/07/2020 13:20, Martin Wynne wrote:

  > but most people I know aren't aware of OSM.

I've been trying to persuade country-walking groups to use OSM. There is 
a lot of useful stuff there not shown on OS Explorer -- stiles, kissing 
gates, benches, bus stops, all pubs, cafes, etc. It's a lot more 
up-to-date, and if they find anything missing they can add it themselves 
for the benefit of others.


Most of them go back to OS Explorer when they find UK public rights of 
way are not shown in different colours on the OSM standard map.


Yes; this is an issue specifically for map users on foot. With roads, 
the question of legality is much less of an issue - almost all roads of 
any significance are public highways, and those that are not are usually 
clearly marked as such. But with footpaths and farm tracks in open 
countryside, there is often no obvious visual distinction, and yet the 
legality is a critical factor to users. This is an area in which OS maps 
are much more useful to walkers.


On the other hand, one of the areas where OSM is better than OS is that 
we map permissive paths, which OS tends not to unless they are big 
enough to also be usable by vehicles (and even then, it doesn't have any 
means of indicating permission).


This is one of the reasons why it would be nice to have a UK-specific 
stylesheet for OSM. The data is there, so there's no reason why it cant 
be rendered. Or, alternatively, a dedicated "outdoors" stylesheet which 
focusses on hiking, biking, etc.


Mark

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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] sur-spécification ?

[osm . sanspourriel]

Le 22/07/2020 à 16:15, Philippe Verdy - ver...@gmail.com a écrit :


Le mer. 22 juil. 2020 à 11:32, Christian Quest
mailto:cqu...@openstreetmap.fr>> a écrit :

Le 22/07/2020 à 00:12, osm.sanspourr...@spamgourmet.com
 a écrit :
> Je vois des interdiction de faire demi-tour sur une
départementale en
> sortie de rond-point :
>
>
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/11332801#map=19/47.78898/-3.47998
>
> Stricto sensu ce n'est pas faux mais est-ce que ça a le moindre
intérêt ?


Il y a sûrement une ligne continue (pas visible vu que c'est un
nouveau
rond-point qui n'est pas visible sur l'ortho), donc c'est pas faux
du tout.


Alors la réponse est : encore plus crétin que ce que je ne pensais.

La bonne modélisation c'est overtaking=no et notamment en continu entre
3 des 4 ronds-points !

Et donc la personne met du détail correspondant au bon sens (on ne fait
pas demi-tour au niveau des haricots de sortie des rond-points -
d'entrée non plus^^) mais par contre n'ajoute pas des restrictions
importantes (un tourne-à-gauche est interdit via un ilot central en plus
de la ligne continue).

Car c'est un danger de la sur-spécification : on ne pense pas aller
regarder dans le détail à côté si la personne a mis une telle
"précision" à côté.

La semaine prochaine quand les moteurs seront à jour,  je verrais si
overtaking=no et le traffic_calming=island suffisent bien implicitement
le tourne-à-gauche : actuellement

on passe sur l’îlot central.

Jean-Yvon

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Re: [Talk-GB] Surveying rural buildings

[Martin Wynne]

 > but most people I know aren't aware of OSM.

I've been trying to persuade country-walking groups to use OSM. There is 
a lot of useful stuff there not shown on OS Explorer -- stiles, kissing 
gates, benches, bus stops, all pubs, cafes, etc. It's a lot more 
up-to-date, and if they find anything missing they can add it themselves 
for the benefit of others.


Most of them go back to OS Explorer when they find UK public rights of 
way are not shown in different colours on the OSM standard map.


Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Surveying rural buildings

[Jon Pennycook]

Traveline, a public transport website, use OSM for both presenting a map
and for routing, eg http://www.travelinesw.com/

They get confused by bus-only roads - access=no/motor_vehicle=no combined
with bus=yes/designated on a road leads to very strange routing (or did the
last time I tried to plan a route in Reading)!

Some delivery companies use OSM - there are several groups of professional
mappers who edit the map on their behalf.

As for direct use by the general public - I know people who use
OpenCycleMap.org, but most people I know aren't aware of OSM.

Jon


Message: 1
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 11:46:08 +0100
From: Robert Skedgell 
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Surveying rural buildings
Message-ID: <3bf3ed9c-b053-38f9-700c-bbe64e14e...@hubris.org.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

On 23/07/2020 10:55, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB wrote:
>
>
>
> Jul 23, 2020, 11:49 by for...@david-woolley.me.uk:
>
> On 23/07/2020 10:12, Nick wrote:
>
> Do we actually know what the general public use OSM for?
>
>
> My impression is that the target for a lot of the material in OSM is
> professional users of maps, rather than the general public.
>
> I would say that most of use by general public is indirect - from location
> maps in a bus, through maps on mapy.cz/Osmand/FB/Snapchat/Uber/Maps.me
> to indirectly benefiting from use of OSM data in various
> plans/analysis/scientific research.

I though Uber used Google, which would explain a couple of comical
misdirections to somewhere near-ish to my destination, which I could
replicate later on in Google.

>
> I would say that direct use by general public is going to be fairly
> rare, though still
> happening, like with nearly all resources.
>

There's also a lot of indirect use by the public in route planning sites
and apps, particularly for cyclists, e.g. Komoot, CycleStreets and
cycle.travel

It's also fairly heavily used by sport and activity tracking apps like
Strava and Training Peaks (both via Mapbox), VeloViewer, etc.

-- 
Robert Skedgell (rskedgell)
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Re: [Talk-GB] Surveying rural buildings

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB]

Jul 24, 2020, 12:46 by r...@hubris.org.uk:

> On 23/07/2020 10:55, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Jul 23, 2020, 11:49 by for...@david-woolley.me.uk:
>>
>>  On 23/07/2020 10:12, Nick wrote:
>>
>>  Do we actually know what the general public use OSM for?
>>
>>
>>  My impression is that the target for a lot of the material in OSM is
>>  professional users of maps, rather than the general public.
>>
>> I would say that most of use by general public is indirect - from location
>> maps in a bus, through maps on mapy.cz/Osmand/FB/Snapchat/Uber/Maps.me
>> to indirectly benefiting from use of OSM data in various
>> plans/analysis/scientific research.
>>
>
> I though Uber used Google, which would explain a couple of comical
> misdirections to somewhere near-ish to my destination, which I could
> replicate later on in Google.
>
I have seen reports that they changed map source in app
(I never used Uber) - it may be also Android vs iPhone or
deployed only for limited testing

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Re: [Talk-GB] Surveying rural buildings

[Robert Skedgell]

On 23/07/2020 10:55, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Jul 23, 2020, 11:49 by for...@david-woolley.me.uk:
> 
> On 23/07/2020 10:12, Nick wrote:
> 
> Do we actually know what the general public use OSM for?
> 
> 
> My impression is that the target for a lot of the material in OSM is
> professional users of maps, rather than the general public.
> 
> I would say that most of use by general public is indirect - from location
> maps in a bus, through maps on mapy.cz/Osmand/FB/Snapchat/Uber/Maps.me
> to indirectly benefiting from use of OSM data in various
> plans/analysis/scientific research.

I though Uber used Google, which would explain a couple of comical
misdirections to somewhere near-ish to my destination, which I could
replicate later on in Google.

> 
> I would say that direct use by general public is going to be fairly
> rare, though still
> happening, like with nearly all resources.
> 

There's also a lot of indirect use by the public in route planning sites
and apps, particularly for cyclists, e.g. Komoot, CycleStreets and
cycle.travel

It's also fairly heavily used by sport and activity tracking apps like
Strava and Training Peaks (both via Mapbox), VeloViewer, etc.

-- 
Robert Skedgell (rskedgell)

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Re: [Talk-GB] Surveying rural buildings

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB]

Jul 24, 2020, 11:38 by n...@foresters.org:

>
> My thanks to Mateusz and Dave for their comments, which I would  like to 
> try to summarise as I see it:
>
> the purpose of OSM mapping in the UK of rural buildings isprimarily 
> to provide a general location of properties i.e.accuracy and 
> precision are unnecessary.
>
I would say that extreme precision/accuracy is not necessary. 

Some minimal accuracy is necessary, 
"I will map square area and tag it as building no matter building shape"
is not OK.

Improving roughly mapped geometry by a better one is always welcomed.


> 'armchair' mapping therefore meets the needs, predominantlyusing 
> aerial photos or other tools/data
>
> If so, I guess I was missing the point as I kind of thought that  in the 
> future there might be the potential for collaboration with  Ordnance 
> Survey e.g. filling in the gaps with high quality  surveys, sharing 
> 'other' data (based on local knowledge) that is  not on OS maps etc.
>
>
It potentially would be nice, though official datasets (based on experience 
from Poland) may have
other quality issue like say dividing building in too many areas. My favorite 
case has every step 
in an outdoor staircase mapped as a separate area, that was blindly imported.

Or including only parts of buildings that are officially existing, without 
illegally constructed parts.

>
> I also thought that there might be scope for collaboration with  
> construction developers - after all they do detailed surveys of  their 
> building sites which could be added to OSM. For some  developers that 
> would mean they could have free plans  (site/location etc.) for their 
> planning applications. The data  in  turn could be of value to the Local 
> Authorities e.g. creating UPRN  and BLPU data - with a collaborative 
> approach OSM 'volunteers'  could also be checking data quality.
>
>
> Hmm..  the potential for real collaboration between OSM  'volunteers', OS 
> and other agencies strikes me as a possible  win-win?.. 
>
>
Yes, though topic is quite tricky due to legal issues and due to different 
priorities/approaches.

> but I suppose that is me going 'a step too far'
>
I would not say that is going too far.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Surveying rural buildings

[Nick]

My thanks to Mateusz and Dave for their comments, which I would like to 
try to summarise as I see it:


 * the purpose of OSM mapping in the UK of rural buildings is primarily
   to provide a general location of properties i.e. accuracy and
   precision are unnecessary.
 * 'armchair' mapping therefore meets the needs, predominantly using
   aerial photos or other tools/data

If so, I guess I was missing the point as I kind of thought that in the 
future there might be the potential for collaboration with Ordnance 
Survey e.g. filling in the gaps with high quality surveys, sharing 
'other' data (based on local knowledge) that is not on OS maps etc.


I also thought that there might be scope for collaboration with 
construction developers - after all they do detailed surveys of their 
building sites which could be added to OSM. For some developers that 
would mean they could have free plans (site/location etc.) for their 
planning applications. The data  in turn could be of value to the Local 
Authorities e.g. creating UPRN and BLPU data - with a collaborative 
approach OSM 'volunteers' could also be checking data quality.


Hmm..  the potential for real collaboration between OSM 'volunteers', OS 
and other agencies strikes me as a possible win-win?.. but I suppose 
that is me going 'a step too far'


On 23/07/2020 10:55, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB wrote:




Jul 23, 2020, 11:49 by for...@david-woolley.me.uk:

On 23/07/2020 10:12, Nick wrote:

Do we actually know what the general public use OSM for?


My impression is that the target for a lot of the material in OSM
is professional users of maps, rather than the general public.

I would say that most of use by general public is indirect - from 
location

maps in a bus, through maps on mapy.cz/Osmand/FB/Snapchat/Uber/Maps.me
to indirectly benefiting from use of OSM data in various 
plans/analysis/scientific research.


I would say that direct use by general public is going to be fairly 
rare, though still

happening, like with nearly all resources.

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