[OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap 20th anniversary party

[Steve Coast]

Can anyone believe it’s been 20 years?

Join your fellow mappers and let’s celebrate the 20th anniversary of 
OpenStreetMap:

Where:
Doggett's Coat & Badge, London, SE1 9UD, England
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/77739560
https://osm.org/go/euu4oeybs?m=
Approx: 51.50841 -0.10481
///press.leaned.caked

When:
12pm onwards, August 10th, 2024

Please feel free to forward this, add it to the wiki, post it on social media…

See you there!

Best

Steve
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[OSM-talk] Trying to find Russian user Usm78

[Steve Coast]

If anyone’s able to connect me…

   https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Usm78

Last edited around 2015.

thanks…

Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] SOTM Africa

[Steve Coast]

I’m confused why you think all board members are volunteers? That feels like a 
convenient fiction.

Best

Steve

From: Jorden Verwer 
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2019 11:52:00 PM
To: Steve Coast 
Cc: talk@openstreetmap org Talk ; 
osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: Re: [Osmf-talk] SOTM Africa

Hello Steve,

It's good to hear that you had a nice time in Ivory Coast and that SOTM
Africa appears to have been a success. For me, as a passive OSMF member
who only attended SOTM once and rarely participates in discussions
outside of the AGM, I can only respect people who spend way more time on
OSM than I do - and that obviously includes you. I also think it's
generally a good idea for as many board members as possible to attend
SOTM conferences.

What I'm not so sure I agree with you on is your proposal to make
attendance of at least one OSMF board member mandatory. The board
consists of volunteers, and for any board member there can be very valid
reasons why they can't or won't attend. As a consequence, this may apply
to all board members simultaneously in some situations. What would the
effect of your proposal be in such a situation? Can the planned SOTM
conference not take place then and there? Will the board be penalized?
Neither option seems to be all that desirable, so instead I'd propose
that OSMF board member attendance be highly recommended, but not
required.

Oh, and I should probably not get involved in this, so against my better
judgment I'll quote the page Christoph linked to:
"We expect this to be the official election campaign process. We won't
restrict members to continue to talk on our members' mailing list nor
will we restrict candidates to continue discussions, but we don't
encourage them to do so. The official answers and questions thereof
should be what voters use to judge."

Regards,

Jorden
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[OSM-talk] SOTM Africa

[Steve Coast]

Today I attended SOTM Africa in Grand-Bassam, Cote d’Ivoire.

It was a genuinely wonderful experience both for me personally and for OSM. It 
was organized by both locals and many francophones. People attended from a 
diverse set of African countries and beyond, and they’re doing an enormous 
amount of work to make the map in Africa better. The conference had multiple 
tracks and many great talks and people. I want to thank them for what I saw.

One of the tangential things that grabbed me was http://africabees.com/ - using 
drones to map places in a distributed way. Not to distract from 
https://www.opendronemap.org/ which was also represented and awesome.

Every SOTM should have at least one board member present. I’ve already sent my 
board 2019 questions in, but, I think sending board members to all the SOTM 
conferences is an obvious thing and I’d push for if elected. It’s something 
that should be required. I’m very happy to be wrong but I didn’t meet or see 
any OSMF board members who attended. It’s confusing, what is more important 
than attending SOTMs for the board? We can do better.

In any case, please consider attending remote SOTMs, even if it’s a long 
journey. The positivity and energy was wonderful to experience and it comes on 
top of a wonderfully different culture.

Best

Steve
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[OSM-talk] Addressing SIG

[Steve Coast]

Hello

Maps have three basic components: Display (does it look nice?), Routing (Can I 
get from a to b?) and Geocoding (Where is this address?).

OSM is extremely good at the first one, and pretty good at the second one. But 
it’s pretty deficient in the third area: address data.

The question is, how can we fix this? Addresses are a big, big problem in terms 
of how much data we need to go collect. There are a few ways forward with 
outside commercial or government data, but they tend to be difficult because 
the data is patchy or licensed in ways that aren’t very compatible with OSM.

It seems like it would be a good idea to think about this from the bottom up in 
a community way, and this doesn’t really exist in OSM right now. It seems like 
we need better feedback loops to:


  1.  Community can see where the address data is (and isn’t), because it’s not 
very obvious today when using osm.org
  2.  Make the tools to add address data better so that it’s easier to fix.

To that end, here’s a tile server that highlights address data:

   
http://ec2-52-50-19-165.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/#10/39.7561/-104.9574

It shows roads with address data normally and kind-of hides other roads, to 
make it obvious that “something is wrong with this map”. We could have a tag 
(maybe it exists already) that says “this road doesn’t have addresses” and/or a 
tag that says “this road is complete”. (right now it’s just got Colorado and 
Utah in it).

When OSM started, the map looked very broken and incomplete because there was 
missing data all over the place. This created a large incentive to go fix the 
map. The idea with this tileserver is to do the same thing and make the map 
look broken to create a large incentive to fix it. If we, one day, switched the 
main osm.org site to using this rendering then it would create an urgent need 
to find all the addresses in the places where they exist. It could also be done 
on a temporary basis for a few weeks, or on a per-country basis or some other 
slow introduction to see if it worked. It’s just an idea.

On the tools side, there’s much that can be done to make collecting and 
entering addresses easier. I’ve been collecting UI/UX changes to tools (e.g. iD 
or Go Map!) that would make addresses better:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Address_SIG

It also seems worthwhile to create a group of people interested in addressing 
in OSM (an address special interest group or working group) to push these ideas 
forward so that we can “finish” OSM by getting all the addresses done.

What do you think?

Best

Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] Mapzen is shutting down

[Steve Coast]

A few of us are working on this -

https://www.maphaven.com

Map services with the profits going to open mapping.

Steve


On Jan 7, 2018, at 4:04 PM, Tobias Zwick 
mailto:o...@westnordost.de>> wrote:

Hey guys

Some of you already read it on weekly, Mapzen is shutting down. This is
very sad news for the new year, as they were working on many promising
open-source services around OpenStreetMap.
I don't have the best overview, but their main product was the vector
map, so amongst the most important projects were

+ tangram and tangram ES (GL vector maps for web, embedded, mobile etc)
 https://github.com/tangrams

+ vector-datasource (Vector tile service)
 https://github.com/tilezen

+ Valhalla (routing engine)
 https://github.com/valhalla

+ Pelias (geocoder)
 https://github.com/pelias/pelias/

(did I forget anything?)

With the company being in dissolution and the developers forced to find
other jobs, all the work done in the last few years might be for the
birds if these repositories will no longer maintained.

I read we do not have to worry about the Valhalla team and project, they
found a new home at MapBox.

Also, I read today that the maintainers of Pelias announced this week,
that they will not shut it down. Full statement here:
https://github.com/pelias/pelias/tree/master/announcements/2018-01-02-pelias-update

But the future of Mapzen's main product, both the vector tile server and
tangram is what I am worried for. With Mapzen's tile services shutting
down along with everything else, the demos [1] will not work anymore and
people who want to use tangram will need to set up an own tileserver for
that, which is something the fewest would do with the easy alternative,
MapBox (and others? Or are there no more other competitors?).

Perhaps some people from the team/company are on this list and can share
their view on how or if these projects can continue and maybe how we as
a community could help.

Greetings
Tobias

P.S: Not sure if I should post this also on the dev mailinglist?

[1] http://tangrams.github.io/tangram/

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Stats site kickstarter

[Steve Coast]

The technical work to open source it is not huge (which is part of the reason 
why it’s only a $1k kickstarter) but it involves cleaning up the code, moving 
the repo, clicking some buttons on GitHub. The work to fix the code and the 
hosting is where most of the cash goes.

The social work *to actually get it running* as an open project means finding 
developers, finding sysadmins and servers to do all the data processing (which 
isn’t trivial, there’s a fair chunk of processing there that happens every 
week) would mean far more time than the technical work. Note – I’m not 
proposing to do any of this if the kickstarter is successful. This is what 
you’d have to do if it *isn’t* successful. Since I don’t want to do this, I’ll 
just press delete.

I don’t really see the point of the former without the latter. If I can’t raise 
a tiny amount like $1k to do this, then that’s a clear indication that the 
universe doesn’t care, and it would also be unlikely for volunteers to 
magically do all this work.

To me, it’s really an experiment in micro-funding. There are lots of little 
projects that use OSM that are built and run by volunteers using free or cheap 
resources. And that’s great. Is there also space for tiny things to get funded 
enough? I don’t know, let’s see. Because if that space does exist then you 
maybe can do things like hire other skills (like interaction designers or 
whatever) to make the thing ten times better.

What I’d like to do is put all my work through kickstarter to either fund or 
kill the variety of little sites I have. It seems like an efficient way to do 
it, but maybe I’m wrong.

Best

Steve



On 4/12/17, 10:57 AM, "Hakuch"  wrote:

On 12.04.2017 18:45, Steve Coast wrote:
> Ten years ago, I’d probably do the work for free to open it etc, but 
don’t have the time now.

Just to understand: whats the problem/work of just opening it? Is it
because of libs which are not open source? I just feel a little
blackmailed at the moment and Iam interested to understand the
circumstances.



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[OSM-talk] OSM Stats site kickstarter

[Steve Coast]

I’m attempting to raise $1k in a week via Kickstarter [1] to fix the 
OpenStreetMap Stats site[2] I built last year.

The site lets you explore OSM data by country, time and data type:

Sadly, it’s suffered bit rot and some countries are broken and not updating. 
The $1k goes toward fixing, open sourcing and hosting it for a year or two. 
Else, it gets canned.

So far, it’s raised $174 with 6 days to go.

Steve

[1] - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/237731198/openstreetmap-stats-2017
[2] - https://osmstats.stevecoast.com/
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Re: [OSM-talk] Slack

[Steve Coast]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slack_(software) 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slack_(software)>

> On Mar 27, 2016, at 12:02 AM, Maarten Deen  wrote:
> 
> On 2016-03-26 20:59, Steve Coast wrote:
>> Ok so look, Slack took over the world. And it turns out it’s pretty
>> good and useful. Let’s have an official OSM slack.
> 
> Maybe I'm living under a rock, but I only know Slack as a short for 
> Slackware, a Linux distribution.
> 
> What is this and why do I need this? Maybe a little explanation?
> 
> Regards,
> Maarten

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Re: [OSM-talk] Slack

[Steve Coast]

I’d love to. I have been looking and found the basic xmpp gateway, I’d 
appreciate help if you’re interested?

I also love what tmcw did with the bot too.

Best

Steve

> On Mar 26, 2016, at 5:14 PM, Toby Murray  wrote:
> 
> I believe there are slack bots that can connect slack and IRC. Not
> sure how well they work when there is a lot of traffic on both sides.
> But is it something we would want to look at?
> 
> Toby
> 
> On Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 6:51 PM, Steve Coast  wrote:
>> Thanks I added it to the wiki.
>> 
>> Steve
>> 
>> On Mar 26, 2016, at 2:07 PM, althio  wrote:
>> 
>> Created a few days ago for SotM-WG:
>> https://osmfoundation.slack.com/
>> 
>> - althio
>> On mobile, please excuse brevity.
>> 
>> On Mar 26, 2016 9:05 PM, "Steve Coast"  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Ok so look, Slack took over the world. And it turns out it’s pretty good
>>> and useful. Let’s have an official OSM slack.
>>> 
>>> —
>>> 
>>> Due Diligence:
>>> 
>>> https://www.google.com/#q=slack+site:wiki.openstreetmap.org
>>> https://www.google.com/#q=slack+site:lists.openstreetmap.org
>>> 
>>> I’ve found two OSM-related slacks. Someone owns openstreetmap.slack.com
>>> and there is also osmus-slack.herokuapp.com as a front door to the US slack.
>>> The former I can’t find a lot about. The latter is mentioned here:
>>> 
>>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Maryland
>>> 
>>> And it has a neat thing to throw out invites to people. There’s also a
>>> neat bot that it looks like tmcw wrote:
>>> 
>>> https://github.com/osmlab/osm-slackbot
>>> 
>>> —
>>> 
>>> I’m proposing that a) we have a global slack and b) it be ‘official’
>>> whatever that means. Having not been able to find this, I invite everyone
>>> over to:
>>> 
>>> https://awesomestreetmap.slack.com
>>> 
>>> So unless there is a secret slack somewhere that I missed, or something, I
>>> need help:
>>> 
>>> * Come join this slack, send me an email for an invite
>>> * Can someone please add the osmbot to this slack?
>>> * Can someone please make the magic “send me an invite thing” for this
>>> slack?
>>> * Please help edit http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Slack and also make
>>> slack a prominent part of other methods of communication
>>> * Please announce this on your favorite existing mailing list, forum or
>>> IRC channel
>>> 
>>> I realize that I’m inviting a discussion about how slack is an evil
>>> company or that we should all just use IRC, and those are fine arguments I
>>> don’t have the energy for.
>>> 
>>> Best
>>> 
>>> Steve
>>> 
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>> 
>> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Slack

[Steve Coast]

Thanks I added it to the wiki.

Steve

> On Mar 26, 2016, at 2:07 PM, althio  wrote:
> 
> Created a few days ago for SotM-WG:
> https://osmfoundation.slack.com/ <https://osmfoundation.slack.com/>
> - althio
> On mobile, please excuse brevity.
> 
> On Mar 26, 2016 9:05 PM, "Steve Coast"  <mailto:st...@asklater.com>> wrote:
> Ok so look, Slack took over the world. And it turns out it’s pretty good and 
> useful. Let’s have an official OSM slack.
> 
> —
> 
> Due Diligence:
> 
> https://www.google.com/#q=slack+site:wiki.openstreetmap.org 
> <https://www.google.com/#q=slack+site:wiki.openstreetmap.org>
> https://www.google.com/#q=slack+site:lists.openstreetmap.org 
> <https://www.google.com/#q=slack+site:lists.openstreetmap.org>
> 
> I’ve found two OSM-related slacks. Someone owns openstreetmap.slack.com 
> <http://openstreetmap.slack.com/> and there is also osmus-slack.herokuapp.com 
> <http://osmus-slack.herokuapp.com/> as a front door to the US slack. The 
> former I can’t find a lot about. The latter is mentioned here:
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Maryland 
> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Maryland>
> 
> And it has a neat thing to throw out invites to people. There’s also a neat 
> bot that it looks like tmcw wrote:
> 
> https://github.com/osmlab/osm-slackbot 
> <https://github.com/osmlab/osm-slackbot>
> 
> —
> 
> I’m proposing that a) we have a global slack and b) it be ‘official’ whatever 
> that means. Having not been able to find this, I invite everyone over to:
> 
>   https://awesomestreetmap.slack.com <https://awesomestreetmap.slack.com/>
> 
> So unless there is a secret slack somewhere that I missed, or something, I 
> need help:
> 
> * Come join this slack, send me an email for an invite
> * Can someone please add the osmbot to this slack?
> * Can someone please make the magic “send me an invite thing” for this slack?
> * Please help edit http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Slack 
> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Slack> and also make slack a prominent 
> part of other methods of communication
> * Please announce this on your favorite existing mailing list, forum or IRC 
> channel
> 
> I realize that I’m inviting a discussion about how slack is an evil company 
> or that we should all just use IRC, and those are fine arguments I don’t have 
> the energy for.
> 
> Best
> 
> Steve
> 
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[OSM-talk] Slack

[Steve Coast]

Ok so look, Slack took over the world. And it turns out it’s pretty good and 
useful. Let’s have an official OSM slack.

—

Due Diligence:

https://www.google.com/#q=slack+site:wiki.openstreetmap.org 

https://www.google.com/#q=slack+site:lists.openstreetmap.org 


I’ve found two OSM-related slacks. Someone owns openstreetmap.slack.com 
 and there is also osmus-slack.herokuapp.com 
 as a front door to the US slack. The former 
I can’t find a lot about. The latter is mentioned here:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Maryland 


And it has a neat thing to throw out invites to people. There’s also a neat bot 
that it looks like tmcw wrote:

https://github.com/osmlab/osm-slackbot 

—

I’m proposing that a) we have a global slack and b) it be ‘official’ whatever 
that means. Having not been able to find this, I invite everyone over to:

https://awesomestreetmap.slack.com 

So unless there is a secret slack somewhere that I missed, or something, I need 
help:

* Come join this slack, send me an email for an invite
* Can someone please add the osmbot to this slack?
* Can someone please make the magic “send me an invite thing” for this slack?
* Please help edit http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Slack 
 and also make slack a prominent part 
of other methods of communication
* Please announce this on your favorite existing mailing list, forum or IRC 
channel

I realize that I’m inviting a discussion about how slack is an evil company or 
that we should all just use IRC, and those are fine arguments I don’t have the 
energy for.

Best

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Law clinic

[Steve Coast]

Thanks Ian
Could you please share with the community the full briefing document, since OSM 
US is the client?
Best
Steve




On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 7:08 PM -0800, "Ian Dees"  wrote:










On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 7:24 PM, Steve Coast  wrote:
...
Hi Steve,
OpenStreetMap US did speak with a law clinic this past week. For now, we are 
acting as the point of contact and have been (and will continue to be) in 
contact with the Licensing Working Group and OSMF. As we understand more how 
this process works we'll be sure to get feedback from as much of the community 
as we can. My hope is that this is a first step in a long and helpful 
relationship between the OpenStreetMap community and a wider array of law 
professionals.
-Ian





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[OSM-talk] license changes

[Steve Coast]

Any license change process, or anything remotely close to it, should be open 
and transparent. It should involve the community from the start and any company 
that wants to participate too.

This is painful, and it takes a long time to do. But it’s the right way to do 
it. And it’s what we did when we switched from CC to ODbL.

...

Recently a few people came up with a proposal to engage some various academic 
law students to provide analysis around the ODbL. This by itself is useful and 
interesting and to be applauded.

Unfortunately this had to be done in only a couple of days and thus the LWG 
didn’t get a chance to analyze it. It was presented to the OSMF instead as the 
law students need a client for whom to work, and they needed a client quickly 
as term is starting. It was hoped the OSMF would be that client. There was a 
briefing document on what the students should work on - the questions they 
would like them to answer. The document wasn’t written by the LWG or OSMF.

I and others were against this for a number of reasons: It was rushed. Few 
people were involved. The community were absent as were a broad set of 
companies. The briefing document appeared focused around companies customers 
and changing the license around geocoding rather than broader issues. It 
mentioned forking OSM and building scenarios around that. OSMF decided against 
it.

This legal work is apparently going forward now with the OSMF-US as the client.

…

It’s fair that within the OSMF or LWG or any group there might be differences 
of opinion, and those opinions not plastered over the internet. And it’s fair 
that they may need to consider some things, some times, in secret. That’s why I 
asked all those involved if there was a problem making this public (nobody 
objected), and it’s why there are no names named.

Here’s what I’m worried about: In a few weeks or months someone might be able 
to wave around a headline saying “{Famous University} law students and OSMF-US 
say ODbL needs changing to allow X, Y or Z”. Or. "{Famous University} law 
students say we can fork OSM and change the license”.

That would be possible if they’ve specifically been asked that and been 
presented a very specific viewpoint, perhaps from one commercial point of view.

I ask that this whole process be opened up to both the community and other 
companies with an interest in OSM so that it is fair, balanced and not subject 
to any real or perceived biases. Most of all, it shouldn’t happen secretly away 
from the community and then just the results presented as a fait accompli. We 
should actively recruit people to be part of this kind of work instead of 
keeping it quiet.

My understanding is that the ship has sailed and the students have started 
working with the scenarios they have been given. Hopefully I’m wrong, but if 
this is the case and the work has started, then I ask that OSMF-US throw out 
the results since the LWG, the community and other companies have not been 
involved at all in what the students are to be asked.

The OSMF-US and/or those involved are creating some communication channels for 
the work that is happening. It is a question for next months meeting whether 
the community will be allowed in to those channels or if there will be an 
announcement. It makes me and others uncomfortable that this is a question at 
all, as does waiting another month, or weeks, or whatever the timeframe is and 
then being presented with the results on how to change the license. You should 
know this work is happening, what has been asked and why, otherwise this isn’t 
a very open project.

Lastly, please come help with the LWG. More people involved in what’s happening 
can only strengthen OSM and help us do more.

Steve
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[OSM-talk] Community Conference

[Steve Coast]

I’ve heard from a few people thinking of organizing an OpenStreetMap conference 
focused on the community, very different from what SOTM has become.

I’m curious what people here think of the idea?

Best

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] Portal for end users

[Steve Coast]

> On Sep 15, 2015, at 1:21 AM, Simon Poole  wrote:
> Over the years the expectation has been that somebody would take OSM
> data and create such an end user portal, but as we know, that has never
> happened outside a couple of aborted or zombie projects (three that come
> to mind are MapQuest, bing and skobbler, but I'm sure there have been more).
> 
> I once asked around what the original vision was for OSM, but nobody
> seemed to be sure if originally the intention was to cater for
> end-users, it definitely hasn't been the case for the majority of the
> roughly 10 years the project has been around.

It was. Why that didn’t happen is a long story.

As for the rest of the email - a kickstarter project would probably work, but 
not by committee.

> In any case the main problem is that it is not possible to build a sane
> commercial business plan around providing such a portal and that
> providing maps is just one (now days small, thanks to OSM) part of what
> a viable map portal/app would need to offer as Frederik has already
> pointed out (note this is not limited to OSM, one of the reasons for the
> rapid dispatching of Here/Navteq by Nokia was the failed attempt to
> provide exactly such a end-user service).
> 
> Naturally the main competitor for an audience is google which is likely
> sinking billions into google maps with nearly no direct income from the
> service (google doesn't actually disclose any specific numbers, what is
> however known is their advertising revenue vs. other sources). I think
> it is clear that competing on a commercial footing is just completely
> out of the question and -not- going to happen, so Frederik is being a
> bit misleading if he points to that as a realistic possibility.
> 
> What is largely unexplored is a non-commercial operation at the level
> that would be necessary to provide the missing bits and pieces. Given
> the intolerance of the masses for a less than google like perfection
> (see the issues Strava is having and that with an audience that
> historically has been sympathetic to OSM) and the problem that you have
> at least one viable commercial operator in the market, obtaining
> sufficient funding is likely to be -very- difficult.
> 
> Simon
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Etsy

[Steve Coast]

Thank you!

Steve




On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 11:42 AM -0700, "Etsy Legal"  wrote:












Hi Steve,I'm sorry for any delay in response. OSM attribution is live to 
everyone now. The only exception we've just found about are maps in very old 
versions of the apps for certain push notifications, however we will be 
removing those next Monday.Please let me know if you have any further questions.


Regards,
Danny
Etsy Legal
https://www.etsy.com/help


―――


This message is a private conversation between you and Etsy. Please respect 
this confidentiality and refrain from distributing this communication without 
permission from Etsy. If you feel this message was sent to you in error, please 
delete it and let us know. Thank you.


    On June 25, 2015, Steve Coast  wrote: 

No I don’t think so - it’s standard mapbox 
maps.

Apparently the bug forum isn’t where you submit bugs, so copying etsy support.

Etsy support, please attribute our maps:

https://www.etsy.com/teams/7720/bugs/discuss/16484376/

Best

Steve




On Jun 24, 2015, at 4:43 PM, Mike Thompson  wrote:

Steve,
Anyway we can see the map without making a purchase?

Mike

On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 9:21 PM, Steve Coast  wrote:
https://www.etsy.com/teams/7720/bugs/discuss/16484376/

Attribution missing, doesn’t even appear in the popup.

Best

Steve


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Re: [OSM-talk] Etsy

[Steve Coast]

No I don’t think so - it’s standard mapbox maps.

Apparently the bug forum isn’t where you submit bugs, so copying etsy support.

Etsy support, please attribute our maps:

> https://www.etsy.com/teams/7720/bugs/discuss/16484376/ 
> <https://www.etsy.com/teams/7720/bugs/discuss/16484376/>

Best

Steve




> On Jun 24, 2015, at 4:43 PM, Mike Thompson  wrote:
> 
> Steve,
> 
> Anyway we can see the map without making a purchase?
> 
> Mike
> 
> On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 9:21 PM, Steve Coast  <mailto:st...@asklater.com>> wrote:
> https://www.etsy.com/teams/7720/bugs/discuss/16484376/ 
> <https://www.etsy.com/teams/7720/bugs/discuss/16484376/>
> 
> Attribution missing, doesn’t even appear in the popup.
> 
> Best
> 
> Steve
> 
> ___
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[OSM-talk] Etsy

[Steve Coast]

https://www.etsy.com/teams/7720/bugs/discuss/16484376/ 


Attribution missing, doesn’t even appear in the popup.

Best

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

[Steve Coast]

Fair point, I meant in the context of the list, as I thought others did too.

Steve




On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 6:07 PM -0700, "Eugene Alvin Villar"  
wrote:










On 6/3/15, Steve Coast  wrote:
>
>> On Jun 2, 2015, at 6:22 PM, Eugene Alvin Villar  wrote:
>> On Jun 3, 2015 8:06 AM, "pmailkeey ." > > wrote:
>> > OSM's k=v design is completely a serious and unnecessary flaw. [...] OSM
>> > is 90% argument, 5% dead-end discussions and 5% progress. The whole is
>> > not a marketable product; it's not fit to be rated as 'beta'. Is this a
>> > significant cause of ex-mappers ? It's a flipping brilliant project but
>> > sadly lacking a great leader.
>>
>> It seems you are deeply unsatisfied with how OSM works. And your broad
>> assertions such as that OSM is "not fit" or is "90% argument" are
>> completely unfounded.
>>
>
> I don’t know; there are a bunch of fairly key and active OSM people who
> unsubscribed from the lists precisely because they felt it was mostly
> circular argument.

Yes, people leave mailing lists because of the endless arguments and
constant bike-shedding. But that does not constitute 90% of OSM. I am
willing to bet that majority if not 90% of OSM activity is of mappers
actually mapping. Mailing list discussions is a really small slice of
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM is a right mess (was: Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue)

[Steve Coast]

> On Jun 2, 2015, at 6:22 PM, Eugene Alvin Villar  wrote:
> On Jun 3, 2015 8:06 AM, "pmailkeey ."  > wrote:
> > OSM's k=v design is completely a serious and unnecessary flaw. [...] OSM is 
> > 90% argument, 5% dead-end discussions and 5% progress. The whole is not a 
> > marketable product; it's not fit to be rated as 'beta'. Is this a 
> > significant cause of ex-mappers ? It's a flipping brilliant project but 
> > sadly lacking a great leader.
> 
> It seems you are deeply unsatisfied with how OSM works. And your broad 
> assertions such as that OSM is "not fit" or is "90% argument" are completely 
> unfounded. 
> 

I don’t know; there are a bunch of fairly key and active OSM people who 
unsubscribed from the lists precisely because they felt it was mostly circular 
argument.

Maybe it’s like San Francisco - everything was built decades ago and now it’s 
illegal to build things, so we just argue over whether the golden gate should 
have a suicide-proof railing or if rich people should be allowed to live in the 
mission or not.

Best

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Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM 250 is online

[Steve Coast]

Congratulations on 250!

> On May 8, 2015, at 9:53 AM, Manfred A. Reiter  wrote:
> 
> The weekly round-up of OSM news, issue # 250, is now available online in 
> English, giving as always a summary of all things happening in the 
> openstreetmap world: http://www.weeklyosm.eu 
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> -- 
> ## Manfred Reiter - -
> ## www.weeklyOSM.eu 
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Re: [OSM-talk] GeoHipster comment on OSM

[Steve Coast]

> On May 1, 2015, at 7:09 AM, Tom MacWright  wrote:
> 
> Perhaps TeleNav or Bing's lawyers are brave enough to say ODbL is not a 
> problem, or they guess that those entities could absorb the lawsuit. They are 
> the only lawyers who take this stance, and they haven't tested it - neither 
> company provides permanent OSM-derived geocoding.

Maybe. Either way, if somebody’s product strategy is driven by legal then 
something is wrong.

Imagine a startup environment: huge risks with capital and everything else 
anyway, why wouldn’t legal be another risk?

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] GeoHipster comment on OSM

[Steve Coast]

I love Gary - I think it’s great that OSM is getting to the point that people 
will write 100 page critiques of it. We must be doing something right. :-)

I actually tried on the single point of contact issue, I think it’d be a great 
idea for OSM to have a 1-800 (or similar) number. Even manned by volunteers. 
But at the time, "companies are evil" and all that so it didn’t go anywhere.

ODbL critique is the usual thing; people want to take OSM and merge it with 
other people’s datasets without giving back, perhaps for good reasons. That’s 
not an ambiguity, it’s the whole point. There are edge cases and complexities 
like geocoding, but as far as I can see some lawyers can work with it, cautious 
lawyers tend to make it a big issue. It’s a shame some organizations are 
trapped by cautious advice like that - I’ve worked in organizations with more 
positive advice around OSM and it means you can go a lot further.

Best

Steve


> On Apr 30, 2015, at 6:29 PM, Nicholas G Lawrence 
>  wrote:
> 
> http://geohipster.com/2015/04/27/gary-gale-dear-osm-its-time-to-get-your-finger-out/
>  
> 
>  
> Anyone read this blog piece by Gary Gale?
> Is it worth commenting on?
>  
> “To my mind there’s two barriers to greater and more widespread adoption, 
> both of which can be overcome if there’s sufficient will to overcome them 
> within the OSM community as a whole. These barriers are, in no particular 
> order … licensing, and OSM not being seen as (more) conducive to working with 
> business.”
>  
> 1) Gary criticises OSM for not having a single point of contact for business 
> to liaise with.
>  
> Exactly why this is necessary is a mystery to me. If business wants to make 
> use of OSM data, they can download the planet file just like anyone else. If 
> business wants to contribute data, or donate equipment or sponsor events, 
> those things are also possible.
>  
> 2) Gary criticises the ODbL for ambiguities in the share-alike clause.
>  
> Maybe this needs clarification, but personally I think the share-alike clause 
> is a good thing.
>  
> Fundamentally though, Gary seems to be under the impression that OSM has a 
> driving need to “compete” with other providers of geospatial data, and that 
> if OSM hasn’t “won the race” then it is failing somehow. Which I think 
> reveals a vast ignorance of the motivations of the majority of OSM volunteers.
>  
> Anyway, I wondered if anyone else had seen the post.
>  
> Cheers,
> Nick
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Re: [OSM-talk] Routing on osm.org

[Steve Coast]

+1 this is awesome

Steve

> On Feb 16, 2015, at 12:10 PM, Michael Kugelmann  wrote:
> 
>> Am 16.02.2015 um 20:20 schrieb Rob Nickerson:
>> Congratulations to all those who were involved in getting directions/routing 
>> on openstreetmap.org :-)
> +1!
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael.
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM services

[Steve Coast]

Mapwarper is fun.

Would be great if the interface was a little more streamlined (flip through 
maps quickly) and allowed me to pick points between images as well as image <-> 
ground.

Steve


> On Jan 25, 2015, at 8:46 AM, Tim Waters  wrote:
> 
> cheers! 
> 
> Glad that mapwarper proved a little bit useful, it was built for OSM.
> 
> Tim


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[OSM-talk] OSM services

[Steve Coast]

Today I ran a mapping party and everything worked. GPS upload, editing, 
rendering and even the third party map warper.

Thanks to everyone who made that possible, it’s awesome.

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Balance of power (was: Re: How to vote to match your view)

[Steve Coast]

We can agree to disagree that taking access away to a resource like Twitter is 
okay. It doesn't feel ok in an open project, and the solution of emailing a 
committee to send a tweet feels cumbersome. The actual solution of grouptweet 
feels like it works for everyone, including giving the accountability you 
wanted. Still sad you left over it.

Steve

> On Dec 6, 2014, at 8:35 AM, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:
> 
> [Apologies to talk@ readers for this follow-up to a post on osmf-talk@. I'm 
> not an OSMF member and therefore can't post to osmf-talk@, but as I'm being 
> spoken about over there, I'd appreciate the opportunity to respond.]
> 
> Steve Coast wrote:
>> See, there was no group that "mobbed" Richard out the board. The CWG
>> took away Twitter access from everyone without any consultation,
>> thinking Ivan's tweet was mine. I asked for it back, used every
>> channel as I outlined. Richard sadly quit feeling CWG was being
>> overpowered by the board but that's not what happened. The CWG took
>> Twitter away from the people using it without talking to anyone, then
>> was surprised this wasn't okay.
> 
> For the record:
> 
> Communications Working Group didn't think Ivan's tweet was yours. We 
> genuinely didn't know who had sent it. (From what I remember of the content 
> of the tweet, it didn't appear to be from a native English speaker, and at 
> first I thought it might have been Emilie.)
> 
> At the time, CWG was aiming for a step change in our communications. In 
> particular, we were aiming to follow up our very successful switch2osm 
> campaign, and were in the early stages of planning a second campaign aimed at 
> recruiting new mappers.
> 
> A large part of that was professionalising our message - bringing sharper 
> focus to OSM's outbound communications, to consistently push the message that 
> mapping was accessible, enjoyable, and made a difference. Basic marketing and 
> not the sort of thing that should come as a surprise to anyone.
> 
> To get this focused message across, we needed to ensure that everything going 
> out on our Twitter, Facebook and Google+ accounts was in line. In an ideal 
> world we would like to have drawn up simple house style and messaging 
> guidelines (again, marketing 101) for those with access.
> 
> However, our hand was forced by this badly phrased tweet, from persons 
> unknown, endorsing a map which failed to attribute OSM (years later, I can't 
> even remember what map it was!). Changing the Twitter password and asking 
> those who wanted a message to go out to contact us, which is what we did, 
> seemed the easiest and most sensible short-term measure.
> 
> Unfortunately you decided to take this as a personal affront, when no such 
> affront was intended, and to campaign volubly for CWG's work to be overruled 
> because of this.
> 
> There is absolutely no personal animus in this. Sure, I disagree with you on 
> many things, but you're an engaging guy to chat to over a pint and I have no 
> doubt we'll do so again some time. But let me make it clear that I did not 
> quit because "CWG was being overpowered by the board". I quit because it was 
> clear that there was no likelihood of improving OSM through the Foundation, 
> in any fashion, when well-intentioned, industrious, and skilled volunteer 
> work could be overturned by emotive say-so.
> 
> I see no sign that this has changed, and that is why I have no intention of 
> rejoining the Foundation.
> 
> As a postscript, I believe switch2osm was the last substantial marketing 
> effort that OSMF has done. All the good publicity for OSM since then has been 
> from third parties, particularly Mapbox. Progress in OSM happens despite the 
> Foundation, not because of it.
> 
> Richard
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Unelected OSMF "advisers"

[Steve Coast]

The only advice to the board I offered was to ask Fred to limit the quantity 
and length of his essays as we couldn't keep up. But that's not new or unique 
advice.

I think Mike's been pretty helpful personally.

I'd stay away from the elected/unelected thing, since almost all of the 
important roles in osm are unelected?

Steve

> On Nov 17, 2014, at 7:41 AM, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:
> 
> I am a little concerned that the (already overwhelming) task of fixing OSMF, 
> which has been entrusted to a board of seven good people, is being made still 
> harder by people in mysterious unelected roles offering their advice.
> 
> I know of at least two: Mike Collinson is chair of the (AIUI moribund) 
> 'Management Team'. Steve Coast is 'chairman emeritus' - I'm not sure whether 
> Simon Poole has also been offered this title. I believe (but don't know) 
> there may be others who receive copies of, and can send, management emails 
> but aren't elected in any way.
> 
> Two requests:
> 
> First, for the sake of openness, it would be good to see these relationships 
> documented on the OSMF website.
> 
> Second, while the new board decides on its direction, a period of 
> self-imposed silence by these people would be considerate. Frederik, Kathleen 
> and Paul have been newly elected to do a difficult job. Their work will be 
> made all the more difficult by a cacophony of advice from those without a 
> mandate.
> 
> This isn't personal - I like Mike very much, while I think it's fairly 
> comprehensively documented that Steve and I don't get on - but it seems, to 
> me, common decency that if you ask someone to do a job, you give them the 
> time and space to do it.
> 
> Richard
> 
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Steve's better map

[Steve Coast]

I think it's sad that someone with the talent and skills that Simon has, spends 
their precious time on this.

It's flattering, and as Nassim Taleb said the difference between love and hate 
is very very small. But, imagine what Simon could achieve by spending that time 
and energy on making the world better.

Steve

> On Oct 31, 2014, at 2:44 PM, Michael Kugelmann  wrote:
> 
> Am 31.10.2014 12:56, schrieb Simon Poole:
>> I commented on the better map vision here
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/SimonPoole/diary/25975 .
> I really recomend to read this blog, very clear words. Thanks Simon!
> 
> And I also advocate to read the newest blog from Simon:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/SimonPoole/diary/25977
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> Michael.
> 
> 
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[OSM-talk] A Better Map

[Steve Coast]

Why are we here on these mailing lists? Why do we spend so much time making 
maps? I think ultimately because it’s fun. It’s a neat hobby and we’re making 
the world a slightly better place.

You need the right environment for things to be fun. Someone has to install the 
toys in the playground. Someone needs to pay for the slides and install the 
swings so that the kids can run around. Then someone else needs to fix them 
when they fail and make sure you don’t break your neck unexpectedly.

In the past I’ve tried hard to make OSM a fun playground, by doing things like 
taking all the warning labels off and letting people do whatever they like. 
Things like open tagging or letting anyone edit, which were crazy ideas in 
2004. I’ve also at times been responsible for it not being fun. Partly because 
I was a kid learning the hard way and partly because sometimes you need to make 
decisions.

I agree that in some ways OSM isn’t a fun playground right now. But that 
doesn’t mean it can’t be again.

We had a lot of fun with our swings and our slides. But now there are a lot 
more people to join the fun from far away places and we’re older. Maybe we now 
prefer bumper cars and video games to the old swings and slides.

We should keep the swings and the slides. People new to the playground will 
still enjoy them. But we should also build a bumper car arena and maybe a video 
game arcade. Sometimes we might go back and play on the slide too. We need some 
new skills to build these new toys.

Together, we need a mission and then a couple of course corrections to make it 
happen.

I think addressing should be our mission. We built the worlds best display map 
already. We won. If you print out any OSM map of practically anywhere, it’s the 
best. But we can’t find anything on it without comprehensive and global 
addressing information. It’s the hidden data behind the map we now need to go 
after. All the other things we need to do are also good things. Diversity in 
all it’s forms, faster servers, better tools, easier documentation and more.

A clear mission provides a framework and guidance for achieving those things. 
“Map more stuff” got us very, very far. But now, we should focus on what’s 
stopping us replacing proprietary maps. And that is addressing.

How would we go achieve that?

There are two basic fixes. Make the board functional and give the board 
bandwidth.

The board is too big. It grew for good reasons but now it’s just hard to 
achieve anything. Seven people mean that if everyone speaks for five minutes in 
a conversation on some issue, you use over half an hour. In an hour-long 
meeting that means you can barely discuss two things. Ignoring all the other 
issues, just the pure mechanics shows you how hard it is to talk through 
something let alone achieve a consensus. The board needs to be 3 people. 5 at 
maximum.

Being on the board is a difficult job, especially as a volunteer. Most people 
aren’t used to such roles. They may think like I did that they need to please 
everybody all the time. They aren’t able to attend meetings because they have a 
day job and other life commitments. The board needs to meet in person regularly 
with a facilitator and also have guidance about what it means to be on a board. 
We can’t expect volunteers to naturally figure all this stuff out by themselves 
and then also devote the time to also achieve goals.

The board needs paid staff. There are a variety of things those paid staff can 
do which the board can decide. It’s clear that there are things that volunteers 
don’t have fun doing and therefore they don’t happen at all, but are still very 
important for a functioning organization. Having paid staff isn’t about 
deprecating volunteer involvement, it’s about plugging the gaps. It’s not a 
perfect solution but the alternative is to rely on companies to do many of 
these things, and that really isn’t perfect either.

In terms of the mechanics,

1. Change the mission statement of OSM to be something like “The world’s best 
addressable map”
2. The board figures out how to voluntarily shrink to 3-5 people, and, meets in 
person 2-4 times a year
3. Consulting with the community on exact roles and remit, hire 1-3 people [*]

Together, we could do this in 6-12 months and finish addressing in 1-3 years. 
At that point we wouldn’t have just made the world slightly better, we would 
have put a big dent in the universe. Nobody would use a closed map ever again, 
and it would be people like you that made it happen.

So why don’t we go do that?

—

A digression.

In Peter Thiel’s book “Zero-to-One” he catalogs the fate of HP’s board. HP used 
to be a very innovative place and then it wasn’t any more. Thiel posits that 
there were two board factions at a critical time. On the one hand there were 
people who wanted to chart out things to build and then go build them. On the 
other hand there was a group who felt the board wasn’t competent to do that, 
and they should focus on mak

Re: [OSM-talk] No new information on the SOTM since January 2014

[Steve Coast]

Matt

Why don’t we focus on the substance raised, rather than framing everything as 
Steve sitting around sending volumes of flak your way which let’s face it isn’t 
very accurate.

The board doesn’t do nearly as much as it used to, some members of it are 
disengaged to say the least, and there are a number of reflections on that, 
some already raised. Is this a good or bad thing? What metrics are good metrics 
to judge the board? If we look at those same metrics for OSMF US, where do they 
sit?

If the board doesn’t push to run great conferences and secedes that, doesn’t 
meet face to face and has email discussions about telephony options or whether 
meetings are even possible… what *does* it do? Why should we keep it around?

Steve



On Apr 5, 2014, at 12:01 PM, Matt Amos  wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 5, 2014 at 3:11 PM, Kathleen Danielson
>  wrote:
>> 
>> On Apr 5, 2014 9:15 AM, "Matt Amos"  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 10:32 PM, Steve Coast  wrote:
>>>> SOTM EU and US, combined with the OSMF focus on being more of a
>>>> theoretical body have reduced the profit and motivation in doing a SOTM to
>>>> approximately zero. I hope it still happens, but I'd be surprised.
>>> 
>>> it wasn't so long ago [1] that people were writing they'd heard
>>> comments that OSM "had been devised by Steve as a way to make a heap
>>> of money from other peoples' effort", and there was recurring
>>> criticism that he was behaving in some sort of sinister way. so it's
>>> saddening, and not a little hypocritical, for steve to come out with
>>> the same sorts of "evil board" conspiracy theories now.
>> 
>> Matt,
>> 
>> Steve was merely expressing his doubt that the conference would come
>> together. He cast no aspersions on the Board that I could see and just
>> described the landscape of conferences as he sees it.
> 
> okay. i read it very differently, where "OSMF focus on being more of a
> theoretical body" is very much an aspersion, although an oblique one.
> 
> in follow-up emails, i definitely take "the OSMF has decided to not do
> anything this year" and "... while the OSMF board decides which open
> source telephony solution is ideal" as aspersions, as in [1], where
> Steve seems to be trivialising the OSMF board, or falsely representing
> the views of its members.
> 
>> Suggesting that this
>> is somehow a "conspiracy theory" is a stretch, and seems like you're just
>> looking for an excuse to dump on Steve.
> 
> i'm sorry it seems that way. perhaps a bit more background would have
> been in order, but i was trying to keep the length of the email under
> 'essay' length.
> 
> i remember very well when Steve himself was the target of such
> aspersions, as i was trying to point out, and as in [2]. therefore it
> is saddening to me that the difficult experiences he had, both before
> the OSMF board and on it, don't appear to prevent him from creating
> difficult experiences for the current board.
> 
>> Feel free to respectfully disagree with Steve, me, or anyone on these
>> threads,  but calling someone "hypocritical" is unkind and unproductive.
> 
> i apologise profoundly for any offence that i caused Steve. i was
> trying to find a word to adequately express the dichotomy between
> rightly criticising those who are seem to be negative towards the
> board while in office and seeming to be negative towards the board
> when not. in any case, it is the action, not the person, that i was
> trying to call out.
> 
> as to being productive - i think is important to say that getting
> involved in OSMF is the most productive way to effect change. casting
> oblique aspersions is not only negative, but likely to attract more
> negative responses. perhaps i should have heeded Steve's advice to
> prospective board members:
> 
> "... the main thing you should be prepared for isn't so much the time
> commitment but the fact that it's a thankless task. You will have to
> make choices between two equally bad options and take the flak for
> it." [3]
> 
> i just didn't think, when i was discussing my candidacy with him
> before the 2011 AGM, that so much of the "flak" would be coming from
> him.
> 
> cheers,
> 
> matt
> 
> [1] 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2012-October/001858.html
> [2] NOTE: i include this because it emphatically demonstrates the
> level of frustration which can be experienced when one is confronted
> by people being negative, or downplaying one's efforts:
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2007-July/015267.html
> [3] 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2011-August/001214.html
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] No new information on the SOTM since January 2014

[Steve Coast]

I hasten to add - I’m not sure by “decision” this was a minuted formal 
resolution to scale everything back, but it’s certainly the observable result 
of the new opinions on the board.

Steve


On Apr 5, 2014, at 8:19 AM, Steve Coast  wrote:

> Exactly, thanks Kathleen.
> 
> The OSMF has decided to not do anything this year; it hasn’t even met face to 
> face like we did every other year to thrash through issues and plan things. 
> I’m not entirely sure if this is good or bad. My gut feeling is that pushing 
> everything possible down to working groups etc is a mistake, but maybe I’m 
> wrong.
> 
> What I see is what the more functional OSMF US is able to achieve with fewer 
> resources. Those guys are inspirational and should be a model for us. I get 
> to see it a little more up close since I work with Martijn than perhaps most 
> people do; they manage to organize regular meetings and build things while 
> the OSMF board decides which open source telephony solution is ideal.
> 
> Steve
> 
> PS I’m not lumping in sysadmin or development with the OSMF here, they’ve 
> always run their own show or been ad-hoc, and it appears work with the 
> occasional massive outside investment (e.g. iD)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Apr 5, 2014, at 7:11 AM, Kathleen Danielson  
> wrote:
>> On Apr 5, 2014 9:15 AM, "Matt Amos"  wrote:
>> >
>> > On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 10:32 PM, Steve Coast  wrote:
>> > > SOTM EU and US, combined with the OSMF focus on being more of a 
>> > > theoretical body have reduced the profit and motivation in doing a SOTM 
>> > > to approximately zero. I hope it still happens, but I'd be surprised.
>> >
>> > it wasn't so long ago [1] that people were writing they'd heard
>> > comments that OSM "had been devised by Steve as a way to make a heap
>> > of money from other peoples' effort", and there was recurring
>> > criticism that he was behaving in some sort of sinister way. so it's
>> > saddening, and not a little hypocritical, for steve to come out with
>> > the same sorts of "evil board" conspiracy theories now.
>> 
>> Matt,
>> 
>> Steve was merely expressing his doubt that the conference would come 
>> together. He cast no aspersions on the Board that I could see and just 
>> described the landscape of conferences as he sees it. Suggesting that this 
>> is somehow a "conspiracy theory" is a stretch, and seems like you're just 
>> looking for an excuse to dump on Steve.
>> 
>> Feel free to respectfully disagree with Steve, me, or anyone on these 
>> threads,  but calling someone "hypocritical" is unkind and unproductive.
>> 
>> Everyone-- please keep all comments on these mailing lists respectful of all 
>> of your fellow community members. They are one of our main communication 
>> channels and if they aren't a safe space for collaboration and discussion 
>> then we're depriving ourselves of our greatest asset: each other.
>> 
>> Kathleen
>> 
>> >
>> > the truth, as always, is more prosaic: back in September 2013, the
>> > SOTM working group reported "The time of one state of the map (and
>> > therefore all the sponsors) is over, so we need to think about the
>> > role in the conference(s) in funding the operations of the OSMF and
>> > server system. Previously it has been our main annual source of
>> > income." [2]. as a result, other funding options were explored, and
>> > the board minuted "The OSMF funding model for 2014 and beyond is based
>> > on a combined model  OSMF organised conferences (State Of The Map)
>> > should continue to be at least self-financing." [3] in response.
>> >
>> > the suggestion that the SOTM working group members are not motivated
>> > is a new one to me. the last report from SOTM working group itself [4]
>> > did not say anything of the sort. if any of them are reading this and
>> > are feeling unable to continue, then - please! - let us know. i'm sure
>> > alternative plans can be made, and i understand how hard it is to push
>> > through to finishing something which has sapped all of your energy
>> > (see the license change saga).
>> >
>> > so, did OSMF reduce the profitability of SOTM - no. did OSMF reduce
>> > the motivation of SOTM organisers - no. i, also, hope that SOTM
>> > happens, and i hope it is very successful.
>> >
>> > OSMF working groups are made up of members of the community - like
>> > yourself - and if you feel str

Re: [OSM-talk] No new information on the SOTM since January 2014

[Steve Coast]

Exactly, thanks Kathleen.

The OSMF has decided to not do anything this year; it hasn’t even met face to 
face like we did every other year to thrash through issues and plan things. I’m 
not entirely sure if this is good or bad. My gut feeling is that pushing 
everything possible down to working groups etc is a mistake, but maybe I’m 
wrong.

What I see is what the more functional OSMF US is able to achieve with fewer 
resources. Those guys are inspirational and should be a model for us. I get to 
see it a little more up close since I work with Martijn than perhaps most 
people do; they manage to organize regular meetings and build things while the 
OSMF board decides which open source telephony solution is ideal.

Steve

PS I’m not lumping in sysadmin or development with the OSMF here, they’ve 
always run their own show or been ad-hoc, and it appears work with the 
occasional massive outside investment (e.g. iD)




On Apr 5, 2014, at 7:11 AM, Kathleen Danielson  
wrote:
> On Apr 5, 2014 9:15 AM, "Matt Amos"  wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 10:32 PM, Steve Coast  wrote:
> > > SOTM EU and US, combined with the OSMF focus on being more of a 
> > > theoretical body have reduced the profit and motivation in doing a SOTM 
> > > to approximately zero. I hope it still happens, but I'd be surprised.
> >
> > it wasn't so long ago [1] that people were writing they'd heard
> > comments that OSM "had been devised by Steve as a way to make a heap
> > of money from other peoples' effort", and there was recurring
> > criticism that he was behaving in some sort of sinister way. so it's
> > saddening, and not a little hypocritical, for steve to come out with
> > the same sorts of "evil board" conspiracy theories now.
> 
> Matt,
> 
> Steve was merely expressing his doubt that the conference would come 
> together. He cast no aspersions on the Board that I could see and just 
> described the landscape of conferences as he sees it. Suggesting that this is 
> somehow a "conspiracy theory" is a stretch, and seems like you're just 
> looking for an excuse to dump on Steve.
> 
> Feel free to respectfully disagree with Steve, me, or anyone on these 
> threads,  but calling someone "hypocritical" is unkind and unproductive.
> 
> Everyone-- please keep all comments on these mailing lists respectful of all 
> of your fellow community members. They are one of our main communication 
> channels and if they aren't a safe space for collaboration and discussion 
> then we're depriving ourselves of our greatest asset: each other.
> 
> Kathleen
> 
> >
> > the truth, as always, is more prosaic: back in September 2013, the
> > SOTM working group reported "The time of one state of the map (and
> > therefore all the sponsors) is over, so we need to think about the
> > role in the conference(s) in funding the operations of the OSMF and
> > server system. Previously it has been our main annual source of
> > income." [2]. as a result, other funding options were explored, and
> > the board minuted "The OSMF funding model for 2014 and beyond is based
> > on a combined model  OSMF organised conferences (State Of The Map)
> > should continue to be at least self-financing." [3] in response.
> >
> > the suggestion that the SOTM working group members are not motivated
> > is a new one to me. the last report from SOTM working group itself [4]
> > did not say anything of the sort. if any of them are reading this and
> > are feeling unable to continue, then - please! - let us know. i'm sure
> > alternative plans can be made, and i understand how hard it is to push
> > through to finishing something which has sapped all of your energy
> > (see the license change saga).
> >
> > so, did OSMF reduce the profitability of SOTM - no. did OSMF reduce
> > the motivation of SOTM organisers - no. i, also, hope that SOTM
> > happens, and i hope it is very successful.
> >
> > OSMF working groups are made up of members of the community - like
> > yourself - and if you feel strongly about some issues then i urge you
> > to offer your assistance to a working group, or join one. the OSMF
> > board is democratically elected and, although it's a lot of work, you
> > might consider running at the next AGM (iirc, at SOTM14).
> >
> > cheers,
> >
> > matt
> >
> > (opinions above are solely my own except for quotations drawn from the
> > sources below)
> >
> > [1] 
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2007-March/000217.html
> > [2] 
> > https://docs.goo

Re: [OSM-talk] No new information on the SOTM since January 2014

[Steve Coast]

SOTM EU and US, combined with the OSMF focus on being more of a theoretical 
body have reduced the profit and motivation in doing a SOTM to approximately 
zero. I hope it still happens, but I’d be surprised.

It might be better to run a SOTM South America, or something.

Steve



On Apr 4, 2014, at 2:06 PM, wn reader  wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> since the release there is no new information. There are no application 
> forms, only slightly from last year. Did I consider great if there really 
> will be a SOTM. The arrival is causing great cost, so a rejection in the next 
> few months would be very detrimental to all.
> 
> But I would appreciate more if the organizations could allay my concerns.
> 
> Marc
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] iD usability study: Looking for test persons

[Steve Coast]

Hi Jan

It would be interesting to see relative use cases too, e.g. the same tasks in 
different editors, and their relative usability. Potlatch appears to still win 
in some areas, and it would be nice to have data to back that up either way.

Steve


On Mar 22, 2014, at 6:15 AM, Jan B  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I want to inform you of a usability study of the iD editor that I'm
> currently planning to execute for my Master's thesis in cartography at
> TU Vienna.
> 
> The goal is to test the usability of iD by having volunteer test persons
> complete a number of beginner tasks on it. From the tests I will draw
> conclusions that will hopefully help improving the usability of iD.
> 
> I'm looking for test persons who are not familiar with editing with iD
> yet. The test is supposed to take place in or around Hamburg, Germany.
> So if you'll happen to be around Hamburg in April by any chance, you are
> invited to take part in the test.
> 
> If you're interested, please take a look at the pre-test online survey,
> in which I ask you a few questions and in which the procedure is
> explained in more detail, too.
> http://cartography.tuwien.ac.at/limesurvey/index.php/216311/lang-en
> 
> Of course I will make the results available to the community as soon as
> the research is completed.
> 
> Feel free to ask me any questions you have; looking forward to exciting
> test sessions.
> 
> Cheers
> jan
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] OpenStreetMap Isn't All That Open, Let's Change That and Drop Share-Alike

[Steve Coast]

I disagree. This is about money; my personal belief is that CloudMade would 
have made more dollars without having to ShareAlike. More business models open 
up, and it wouldn’t have had to deal with the community. Indeed I imagine this 
was a topic of continual discussion.

The ODbL requires only two things and my understanding is that MapBox disagree 
with both of them, or at least Alex does. This shouldn’t be surprising, they 
hinder making money, like it did for CM.

But in those cases, we’re talking about competition in the market via data sets.

My personal belief, not speaking for them, is that Telenav has a different 
focus, in that free-to-the-consumer turn-by-turn navigation doesn’t have these 
impediments. Therefore it would in theory not be an issue in our case to 
attribute and ShareAlike. Like in my original slides about OSM from years ago - 
it’s about moving up the stack and competing at a higher level, not competing 
over data itself (where attribution and ShareAlike are relevant). Instead, 
going all-in on OSM and focusing on the product and user experience. Remember, 
these problems only occur if you don’t want to use OSM, but want to use it with 
other datasetsets that you don’t want to contribute back.

As for legal opinions on the ODbL you should understand that weaker (or, 
really, any) lawyers don’t like new things. New un-tested things have the 
potential to blow up in your face and throw you in court. Therefore the 
calculus is different when you are small and court is a scary place, compared 
to if you’re a big company say like Microsoft and you’re in court all the time. 
In my time I’ve met plenty of lawyers who’re fine with the ODbL and it 
shouldn’t be characterized that all lawyers everywhere somehow have major 
problems with it. The community norms (and the new ones the LWG is apparently 
putting together I heard) help very much here, and of course there are always 
issues with any license.

Whether the ODbL is good or bad for OSM is a different question. The ODbL was a 
very fun multi-year process that I happen to have been deeply involved in. It 
would be nice if there was data to suggest that one license is measurably 
better than another (for OSM). Instead, we have a large collections of 
anecdotes (not data) like “nobody uses OpenBSD because of the license” or 
“Linux wins because of the license”.

We’ve had beliefs like that in the past. For example “lots more people would 
edit with nicer tools”. This is a belief I shared. So, multiple times, we’ve 
built nicer tools. And it’s turned out that there is some small grain of truth 
to that but it’s not really comparable to the effort involved. I was wrong.

Alex makes a bunch of these statements like that, I’ll pick three that jump out:

1) "the assumption that share-alike encourages contribution is a myth”
2) "The reality is that OpenStreetMap is only used extensively in situations 
where the share-alike license does not apply, for instance, map rendering."
3) "OpenStreetMap's current licensing is stunting our growth"

And respond:

1) Data would be useful either way
2) I’d say that’s because OSM doesn’t contain a lot of address or navigation 
data (which, as it happens, is where the money is), not because of the license.
3) My personal belief is it might stunt CloudMade or MapBox, but not Telenav or 
MapQuest, and, http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stats doesn’t show a lot of 
evidence of being stunted.

&ct.

I’ll sum by saying that when you’re picking licenses you’re really picking 
business models. We should be very careful when considering license changes and 
make sure any choice is backed by the best data we can get, not anecdotes or 
nice sounding stories. The ODbL has got us this far, and all the graphs are 
up-and-to-the-right. Exponential curves are powerful. Lastly, consider the 
weight of effort thousands of people put in to mapping before you to get us 
here, and what terms they did it under.

Steve





On Mar 14, 2014, at 1:18 AM, Russ Nelson  wrote:
> Alex Barth writes:
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/lxbarth/diary/21221
> 
> Another aspect of where the ODbL hurts us: Because we are using a
> restrictive license, we cannot argue against other parties that use a
> restrictive license. Look at New York State's GIS
> Clearinghouse. Individuals not welcome. For-profit corporations not
> welcome. OpenStreetMap users  not welcome. NY government entities?
> Welcome! Non-profits? Welcome!
> 
> We can't argue against that on principle because we're just as bad.
> 
> -- 
> --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
> Crynwr supports open source software
> 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815
> Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog   
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Go Map!! is in the Apple app store

[Steve Coast]

yes;

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Go_Map



On Jan 25, 2013, at 9:34 AM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:

> Cool, getting my iPhone next week, so can't wait to try it out!
> 
> Is it listed on the OSM wiki yet?
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 10:07 PM, Jeff Meyer  wrote:
> I'd like to highly recommend a brand-new, native, and free* iOS OSM editor: 
> Go Map!!
> 
> https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewSoftware?id=592990211&mt=8
> 
> The author is a member of the Seattle OSM community, so I'm biased, but I 
> think it rocks.
> 
> Regards, 
> Jeff
> 
> * as in free beer!
> 
> -- 
> Jeff Meyer
> Global World History Atlas
> www.gwhat.org
> j...@gwhat.org
> 206-676-2347
>  osm: Historical OSM / my OSM user page
>  t: @GWHAThistory
>  f: GWHAThistory
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Martijn van Exel
> http://oegeo.wordpress.com/
> http://openstreetmap.us/
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Re: [OSM-talk] Google: pay for map and API

[Steve Coast]

You're just missing the point of press releases. It's not necessarily to make a 
logical point, it's to get press and therefore more users. Something that just 
says "people should switch to OSM" in the context of this kind of news will get 
press if executed well.

Steve


On Oct 28, 2011, at 4:55 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote:

> I don't know what point we would make. GMaps users are not only paying
> for the map data they're using - which they can of course get for free
> at OSM - but also for a full-featured, well-documented, integrated API
> with routing, geocoding, vector overlays and what have you, allowing
> anyone who can find the pointy brackets on their keyboard to slap an
> interactive map on their website.
> This is something OSM does not offer, or claim to.
> 
> On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 4:34 PM, malenki  wrote:
>> Google demands (with several exceptions payment for using map and API:
>> http://code.google.com/intl/uk-UK/apis/maps/faq.html#tos_pricing
>> 
>> A press release from OSM would be a good idea.
>> 
>> Thomas
>> aka malenki
>> 
>> 
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> martijn van exel
> geospatial omnivore
> 1109 1st ave #2
> salt lake city, ut 84103
> 801-550-5815
> http://oegeo.wordpress.com
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Roundabouts and routing

[Steve Coast]

+1

Steve
From: Tom Hughes
Sent: 9/8/2011 1:27 PM
To: Thomas Davie
Cc: OSM Talk
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Roundabouts and routing
On 08/09/11 19:48, Thomas Davie wrote:

> 1) Don't tag sliproads onto roundabouts as junction=roundabout, instead
> use some other tagging scheme. Not greatly desirable because it involves
> a *whole* lot of retagging.

Well who on earth is doing that? and why?

I've certainly never tagged roads entering a roundabout in that way, nor
can I see any reason to do so.

Tom

-- 
Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
http://compton.nu/

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Re: [OSM-talk] twitter handling

[Steve Coast]

I don't think you're part of the twitter generation then Fred :-)

It turns out a lot of people use it, and Facebook, and there will be more. To 
ignore them is silly.

Steve

stevecoast.com

On Sep 8, 2011, at 1:40, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> On 09/08/11 01:20, SteveC wrote:
>> There are a bunch of people asking things on twitter about OSM that we
>> miss.
> 
> I don't think that we should encourage that. Call me old-fashioned but to me 
> this is as if you were saying: "There's a lot of people asking things in pubs 
> about OSM that we miss. I'm looking for a solution."
> 
> The solution is getting people to ask the questions they have not in the pub 
> but on the lists, in the forums, on IRC, or on help.osm.org, instead of 
> spreading our limited capacities even thinner.
> 
>> Or people saying nice things that we should be retweeting.
> 
> Why should we? "RT JoeRandomStudent: OSM rulez" - I don't see how this 
> should do anything but waste time.
> 
> Bye
> Frederik
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Id stability

[Steve Coast]

The stable ID question to me comes down to philosophy: It would be nice 
if the world was stable but it's not.


Asking for stable IDs is like asking for the world not to change. But it 
does, continuously. Any road changes over time in name, surface, 
connectivity and it's other attributes. Perhaps you could have 90% 
stability over some two year or so period but that's about it.


Therefore, it seems better to deal with the inherent messiness of the 
world than try to squeeze it in to a neat structure.


Steve

On 8/1/2011 12:21 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Hi,

Steve Bennett wrote:

3) Why people intentionally destroy ids, and whether there are better
ways of achieving their goals?

(I seem to recall someone explaining that sometimes objects are
deleted and recreated in order to discard the change history,
particularly for large relations.)


That was me. There are a number of other reasons why IDs could 
"break". One is the expansion of POI nodes into buildings that Toby 
mentioned. Another is the splitting of ways (old ID would then point 
to only half) or merging (old ID would become invalid in 50% of 
cases). Same with the re-structuring of relations or the re-mapping of 
stuff in the course of the license change.


Relying on numeric IDs is never going to work, and there is no way how 
this could be made to work in the future. IDs are OSM internal 
identifiers and if you use them for anything external then you're 
lost. It is even conceivable that, for whatever reason, IDs are 
changed on a grand scale - for example I expect API 0.7 to introduce 
some kind of area data type which will likely lead to lots of existing 
areas being changed in some way and that might include a new ID.


The generally accepted wisdom - although not fully implemented or 
extensively used - is that you need to make fuzzy links like "a node 
with amenity=pub and name=The Old Dog in this area". Tim Alder's 
"query to map" interface tried to implement that. In the long run 
there might be proper, external servers where you can set up a stored 
query like the above "Old Dog" and record a permanent ID for that 
query, and then reference that.


I don't think it should/will be a core API feature though, or at least 
that would be phase 2 after a number of competing schemes have been 
tried out by third parties and the best has been found.


(Two or three people have also started tagging OSM objects with UUID 
tags but I don't think that that's anything more than database bloat. 
I think that about 99.9% of UUID tags in the database come from a 
building import where somebody automatically assigned an UUID to every 
last garden shed. Not useful.)


Bye
Frederik



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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] A case for CT + CC-BY-SA

[Steve Coast]

Got it! :-)

On 7/25/2011 1:14 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Hi,

Steve Coast wrote:
I'm half surprised nobody has jumped on you about not releasing the 
full US position like they jumped on the LWG for example.


We're planning to let him work for 2 years and *then* jump on him, 
just like we did with LWG.


Bye
Frederik



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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] A case for CT + CC-BY-SA

[Steve Coast]

Hm. I posit that whatever Francis comes up with could (and probably will 
be) reasonably be accused of bias, and by asking for a recommendation 
for advice in the US propagates the same bias. To be clear, I'm saying 
accused and the bias could be in either direction merely by hanging 
around here. I'm happy as ever to be wrong, but we could minimise said 
accusation by picking a random big firm.


As Francis said in another thread:

"That it was drafted, carefully, by a lawyer I do not doubt. But lawyers 
draft things on instruction to achieve particular goals."


Therefore I think it's going to require you to release the full 
instructions too. I'm guessing it's an email thread?


That you're paying for this and taking the initiative to publish your 
efforts should be applauded, but lets try not to fall in to the same 
traps as the LWG? I'm half surprised nobody has jumped on you about not 
releasing the full US position like they jumped on the LWG for example.


Steve


On 7/25/2011 4:17 AM, Ed Avis wrote:

I haven't wanted to make too much noise before I get the results back,
though I have discussed this with the LWG.  In the UK I have asked
Francis Davey to do the work - he has often contributed to this list.
He recommended a US attorney, Cathy Gellis.  She in turn asked to
bring in Jon Rubens, and they are working together.  I am glad I was
able to follow a chain of recommendations in this way rather than
having to pick a law firm myself.

Briefly the two questions I've asked about are the extent to which OSM
map data is covered by copyright (and therefore, to which the
share-alike provisions of CC-BY-SA are enforceable); and whether the
additional contract-law provisions of the ODbL help enforceability.
Francis Davey is also going to report on European database right law.

I have made it quite clear that I am not involved in any legal action,
nor likely to be, and so I'm not concerned about the usual issues of
confidentiality and privilege.  Nonetheless the US law firms are a
little jumpy about producing something which will be posted publicly.
I will probably need to summarize or report their findings in my own
words, although I hope to share the full report with individuals who'd
like to see it.

Clearly, I have my own views on OSM licensing, but I have tried to put
the legal questions in neutral terms.  Sometimes I wasn't sure how
specific to make them: am I asking about copyrightability of geodata
in general, or OSM in particular?  The US attorneys raised several
interesting questions, such as what happens when contributors are from
different countries, but I have tried to narrow the scope by asking
them to assume all parties are in the USA.  Similarly, questions about
what exactly is a 'produced work' under the ODbL, or what exactly the
DbCL covers, are not something I have asked about.

I am paying for this work myself.  I will of course report the outcome
whether or not it supports my personal viewpoint.  I expect a few weeks
more of waiting.

--
Ed Avis


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[OSM-talk] GMM publicity

[Steve Coast]

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/columns/news_cut/archive/2011/07/google_map_maker_turns_average.shtml

"I just want to know where I'm going when I'm in Kazakhstan," Negoda 
said. "And I wanted to give something back to the country."




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Re: [OSM-talk] data reconciliation tools

[Steve Coast]

seems to work now, just a delay rendering :-)

would be nice to link this to something which tells me the usernames too 
in the bbox



On 7/20/2011 10:58 AM, Steve Coast wrote:

does it work outside of the EUish? Not getting any joy in Seattle.

On 7/20/2011 9:54 AM, Richard Weait wrote:

Color-coded map of ODbL status
http://osm.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/map/

list your favourites:

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Re: [OSM-talk] data reconciliation tools

[Steve Coast]

does it work outside of the EUish? Not getting any joy in Seattle.

On 7/20/2011 9:54 AM, Richard Weait wrote:

Color-coded map of ODbL status
http://osm.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/map/

list your favourites:

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Re: [OSM-talk] Sotm-EU11: thanks to the organisation committee

[Steve Coast]

SOTM-EU was a fantastically well organized conference, well done.

Steve




On Jul 18, 2011, at 5:42 AM, maning sambale wrote:

> Dear Norbert,
> 
> The videos are very useful for those of us who were not in the conf.
> However, it  gets painfully slow to enjoy. Is there a plan to host
> them in another site (i e. vimeo or youtube) or as a download?
> 
> Thanks again for making the videos available.
> 
> On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 8:25 PM, Norbert Wenzel
>  wrote:
>> On 18.07.2011 14:18, Michael Kugelmann wrote:
>>> 
>>> For all who could not join: conference proceedings and/or slides and/or
>>> recodings from allmost all talks are already available on the SOTM-EU
>>> website http://www.sotm-eu.org .
>> 
>> All videos should now be online. If there's still a video missing we do not
>> have the right to publish it or we have technical problems with the video
>> (Steves Keynote seems not to work. Andreas Trawöger is still working on this
>> together with the TU Teaching Support Center.)
>> 
>> kind regards,
>> Norbert
>> 
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> cheers,
> maning
> --
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> wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/
> blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/
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Re: [OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au

[Steve Coast]

On 7/13/2011 2:58 AM, Nic Roets wrote:

Steve has
made one post making a considered overview of an ugly situation and inviting
discussion ... a proper course of action for the founder of our project to
take.

Michael,

If you carefully read Steve's post, you will see that some people may
find it insulting. For example he is belittling Etienne's efforts.


Far from belittling, I've elevated his efforts to a direct threat to the 
project in my mind.



  He
expresses a dislike of pseudonyms which may bring into question his
motivation(s) for "resetting" the list.


I hadn't really thought about the pseudonym thing until a while ago when 
someone sent around the 'poisonous people' talk video done I think at 
google. One of their very first points is to note that trolls usually 
use pseudonyms and if you can stop that then things can get a lot better.


Personally I'm very libertarian and would otherwise support using 
pseudonyms. But sadly when it reaches the limit case where essentially 
every troll is a pseudonym it's hard to justify it anymore.





I personally hope you (David) will also calm down, withdraw unwarranted
personal insults and consider apologising.

+1

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[OSM-talk] Hitting reset on talk-au

[Steve Coast]

I'm speaking strictly personally here, posting to talk@ and opengeodata.

OSM often crosses bridges in it's growth. Mostly they're technical, like 
introducing color maps, rendering new things or speeding up the system. We have 
a much more ugly bridge to cross in front of us.

Would you want to be part of a community which includes people explicitly 
working to disrupt it, trolling it and breaking data? Would you want to be part 
of a community where people are literally scared for their jobs when thinking 
about helping run it?

Over the last few days there has been a bunch of discussion on talk-au which 
you can read in the archives, though for your own sanity you might want to skip 
it.

For the most part the posts revolve around the OSMF, the LWG and the license 
process. I considered my presence there over the last few days as both a last 
ditch attempt to salvage the data and more importantly the community that's 
there. As RichardF pointed out, their license acceptance rate is about half 
what most EU communities have achieved. I would say that the people on that 
list feel disaffected with the process and their representation in it.

Despite multiple attempts at trying to have a reasonable dialog over both what 
happened and what we can do about it, mostly I've been met with extreme 
animosity.

Most of that comes from people either banned from the main lists, been 
deleted/blocked from OSM or been moderated or who have publicly stated they're 
here to disrupt the project.

I've tried to get many people involved posting there in what I thought was a 
worthwhile effort, in effect to save that list. Almost everybody declined to do 
so. Only RichardF braved it and was met with a predictable response. Frederik 
has given up and from my reading of his email considers talk-au dead (I think 
you should make that email public). I find that understandable.

I've been trying to find someone to moderate the list along the Etiquette 
guidelines on the wiki. Mikel has given up, understandably, and he leads the 
main moderators. We found one native Australian to moderate but they backed out 
because they literally feared for their job safety, that the people who now 
inhabit the list would make life with their employer difficult. Thus, they 
declined to do so after initially accepting. I actually am convinced that was 
the right decision and the people on that list are capable of it.

I don't think anyone I know in OSM would want to be part of a community like 
that. I think it's a sad low point in what otherwise is a wonderful project to 
be involved in.

Let me be more clear, *I* don't want to be part of a community that accepts 
this. Who in their right mind would want to be a part of a community run by 
people explicitly out to disrupt, fork and troll?

In the best traditions of open projects our ideas and code are Free. It's not 
clear that our time and server resources should be. Unlike our ideas and code, 
they're finite and open to abuse. Make no mistake that our time and resources 
are being used explicitly to destabilize the very project which provides them. 
Used by mostly anonymous or pseudonymous people who as I say have been kicked, 
banned or explicitly stated they want to destabilize OSM.  

This is not about censorship. If you read the lists, you'll find we've made 
available repeatedly both the methods and the people to help resolve issues. 
These people are free to fork the project and the data, it's all available for 
download. They have their own mailing lists. Are there genuine questions about 
license, it's implementation and so on? Absolutely. But level-headed discussion 
is not welcome on talk-au for the most part. There are a few people who can 
discuss this stuff impersonally there but it's a small part of the list.

Now - why are we at this point?

The OSMF and the working groups, the apparatus of how a chunk of this project 
is set up, are unable to deal with direct threats like this, even if it's been 
going on for a year or more. One of the main forks of OSM (if you can call it 
main, it doesn't yet display a map) is run by an ex-board member. When you have 
someone like that working together with those who've explicitly declared they 
want to disrupt OSM, it's very hard for a young, open and democratic 
organization to deal with. For the most part we have no idea how many of these 
people are even real too, it's been suggested that a few of the pseudonyms are 
in fact just one person creating them on the fly.

We simply don't have the tools for it. Until last week we had no moderation at 
all, and that took many, many months (perhaps years) to set up. The board meets 
too infrequently to be able to respond to people explicitly working for its 
downfall, which perhaps is a little ironic. The working groups likewise I don't 
think have the bandwidth as they currently operate. Generally in an otherwise 
do-ocracy there is a lack of people who feel they have the authority to take on 

Re: [OSM-talk] Mailing list moderation

[Steve Coast]

The latter.

...Unless the list gets *really* bad :-)

On 7/8/2011 4:17 PM, Ben Laenen wrote:

Richard Weait wrote:

After careful consideration, effective immediately Mikel Maron, Andy
Robinson and Mike Collinson have access to the moderation system
across the main OSM mailing lists. They will use their best judgment
according to thehttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Etiquette#Mailing_Lists";>
moderation guidelines  and they enjoy the full support of the OSMF
Board.

http://blog.osmfoundation.org/2011/07/07/mailing-list-moderation/

The wiki page isn't really clear on this: Does this mean that each message to
the mailing list will have to be approved first before subscribers receive it,
or will they still automatically get through and will "punishment" happen
later?

Ben

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Re: [OSM-talk] offering adapted databases

[Steve Coast]

Lets say you make a map and someone wants the data.

First, are you acting in the spirit of the license? Let's assume yes. 
That gets you 99% of the way there, despite your technical detail analysis.


Next, you don't have to make the database available. You can make the db 
available, or the code.


Next, you could ship that with the work. So each paper map could carry a 
cd with the code, or something.


Next, you could just put a dump or code snippet up somewhere. Storage 
space is effectively free at this point, or dropping exponentially.



If linksys can distribute hundreds of millions of routers and maintain 
GPL by sharing the code, surely you can too?


Steve



On 7/8/2011 1:24 PM, Anthony wrote:

This is an except from a message I sent to Steve.  But hopefully
someone can answer these questions for me (and for everyone who wants
to comply with the ODbL):

"If you publicly use any adapted version of this database, or works
produced from an adapted database, you must also offer that adapted
database under the ODbL."

How long do I have to keep a copy of the adapted database in case
someone takes me up on my offer?  How much of the database do I need
to keep?  Is the offer valid to third parties?  If person A makes a
bunch of tiles from a database, and person B prints out a map from
those tiles and gives the map to person C, who offers person C the
copy of the adapted database?  (Person B likely doesn't have a copy,
but Person A would have to keep a ton of obsolete data indefinitely if
his offer is valid to third parties.)

As of right now I have produced hundreds of thousands of tiles from a
myriad of different versions of a myriad of different databases.  If
someone asked me to give them a copy of the adapted database, I
couldn't possibly comply.

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] license change effect on un-tagged nodes

[Steve Coast]

Awesome. Can you go run that project and leave us in peace then please?

Steve

On 7/7/2011 12:35 AM, 80n wrote:
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 7:58 AM, Frederik Ramm > wrote:


Simon,
Andreas,
all,

  when discussing these things with the person who goes by the
pseudonym of "John Smith", keep in mind that he is spending a lot
of time building/supporting an OpenStreetMap "fork".

The forkers, as I like to call them, are driven by all kinds of
motivations, the most benign probably being a sincere worry about
data loss - they believe that the license change is going to hurt
OSM so much that they must do all they can do retain a live copy
of the "old OSM", or even dissuade OSMF from changing altogether.


Frederik,
I'm sure you've been paying attention an know full well that the 
reason fosm.org  exists is because we have grave 
concerns about the new license.  The only thing we are forking is the 
license, we are not forking the tagging scheme or the community or 
even the objectives of OSM.


Data loss is your problem not ours.  I see people doing thought 
experiments about how they can get around the wishes of contributors 
who have, in good faith, provided their content under the CC license.  
Those people who have not agreed to the CT have not consented for 
their content to be used in any other way.  You should respect that.


A main objective of OSM was to create maps that were free enough to be 
used by everyone.  Anything that steps across the line will taint OSM 
with the impurity that we strived for so long to avoid.


There will forever be doubt about the provenance of OSM data.

80n


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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[Steve Coast]

On 6/22/2011 5:16 PM, David Murn wrote:

On Wed, 2011-06-22 at 16:25 -0700, Steve Coast wrote:

Well there's one other aspect which is there are chunks of data only
available to OpenStreetMap and nobody else.

Does the data exclusively available under the ODbL outweigh the data
exclusively available under CC?  Since not even OSM uses the ODbL yet, I
find it totally amazing that any other entity would be.


I think you need to think about the data that OSM derives from, like 
aerial imagery.



Also..

On Wed, 2011-06-22 at 16:35 -0700, Steve Coast wrote:

Why do you feel you have a liability?

Because I have used data from a source which cannot be relicenced.  Id
feel the same way if Id taken OSM data and put it into another external
project, which was then planning to change its licence and take the OSM
data along with it.

Personally, I dont have a liability as I was aware early enough that my
contributions couldnt be relicenced.  Unfortunately some people have
accepted the CTS without fully understanding that they didnt have the
rights to relicence the data.  The fact of having each individual user
accept contributor terms, means that effectively you have passed the
liability directly onto the user who contributed the 'offending' data
rather than the foundation who refuse to remove the data in the first
place.


Do you have any legal opinion to support this?

Steve



David


On 6/22/2011 4:22 PM, David Murn wrote:

On Wed, 2011-06-22 at 21:17 +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote:


I wonder what would happen if someone involved in running Google Map
Maker were to post a similar message. "Hey, don't like how things go in
OSM? Why not come to Google Map Maker where all license issues are solved!"

Except that

a) Map Maker never had any compatability with any version of OSM
b) Users who used OSM for the past few years dont necessarily want
licence issues 'solved' (especially if the only difference they see is a
degraded map)
c) fosm isnt a wholey different project in the same way MapMaker is.
fosm is a copy of OSM, and the two will parallel each other until the
time that OSM splits off with a new licence change.  If you think of
fosm as the continuation and OSM as the fork with 'all licence issues
solved', youre more on-track to the situation

The day after the changeover occurs, the world will look at OSM and fosm
and theyll see one is a small subset of the other, until the time that
the main OSM project can come close to making up for the data that has
had to be removed.  Joe user (especially Joe user who might use map
maker) doesnt give a rats about licence terms, all they care about is
seeing complete maps.

David


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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[Steve Coast]

Why do you feel you have a liability?

Steve

On 6/22/2011 4:29 PM, David Murn wrote:

On Wed, 2011-06-22 at 13:49 -0700, Steve Coast wrote:


Personally I hope as soon as possible. I suspect it will be nice to
give you 'no' guys some time to reconsider, as some already have.

Such a pity you dont extend the same feelings to those 'yes guys' who
wish to change their acceptance.  Except that changing from no to yes is
generally upto the mapper, those who wish to change the other way are
trying to protect themselves and the OSM project from liability.  Surely
with the whole purpose of the licence change being to purge any
non-compatible data, these requests should be taken seriously, not in
the way they generally have been, with refusal.

David




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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[Steve Coast]

Well there's one other aspect which is there are chunks of data only 
available to OpenStreetMap and nobody else.


On 6/22/2011 4:22 PM, David Murn wrote:

On Wed, 2011-06-22 at 21:17 +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote:


I wonder what would happen if someone involved in running Google Map
Maker were to post a similar message. "Hey, don't like how things go in
OSM? Why not come to Google Map Maker where all license issues are solved!"

Except that

a) Map Maker never had any compatability with any version of OSM
b) Users who used OSM for the past few years dont necessarily want
licence issues 'solved' (especially if the only difference they see is a
degraded map)
c) fosm isnt a wholey different project in the same way MapMaker is.
fosm is a copy of OSM, and the two will parallel each other until the
time that OSM splits off with a new licence change.  If you think of
fosm as the continuation and OSM as the fork with 'all licence issues
solved', youre more on-track to the situation

The day after the changeover occurs, the world will look at OSM and fosm
and theyll see one is a small subset of the other, until the time that
the main OSM project can come close to making up for the data that has
had to be removed.  Joe user (especially Joe user who might use map
maker) doesnt give a rats about licence terms, all they care about is
seeing complete maps.

David


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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[Steve Coast]

On 6/22/2011 1:46 PM, 80n wrote:
On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 9:38 PM, Steve Coast <mailto:st...@asklater.com>> wrote:




On 6/22/2011 1:26 PM, 80n wrote:

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 8:54 PM, Steve Coast mailto:st...@asklater.com>> wrote:

On 6/22/2011 12:51 PM, 80n wrote:

2. When will the license become incompatible?  The current
plan suggests it will be a long time yet.

Timing isn't relevant to the question. Sounds like you'll
have to stop using OSM then when it occurs.


Timing is very relevant.  Unless OSM gathers the courage to
delete all non-ODbL licensed content then it will be a very long
time before the final switchover.  What is the point of all this
nonsense if you don't ever actually get to do it?


Okay, I take this as you won't actually answer the question.


A: We will definitely stop using OSM as soon as OSM switches to ODbL 
for it's output.


Thanks


Q: Now when will that be?


Personally I hope as soon as possible. I suspect it will be nice to give 
you 'no' guys some time to reconsider, as some already have.


Steve




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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[Steve Coast]

On 6/22/2011 1:26 PM, 80n wrote:
On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 8:54 PM, Steve Coast <mailto:st...@asklater.com>> wrote:


On 6/22/2011 12:51 PM, 80n wrote:

2. When will the license become incompatible?  The current plan
suggests it will be a long time yet.

Timing isn't relevant to the question. Sounds like you'll have to
stop using OSM then when it occurs.


Timing is very relevant.  Unless OSM gathers the courage to delete all 
non-ODbL licensed content then it will be a very long time before the 
final switchover.  What is the point of all this nonsense if you don't 
ever actually get to do it?


Okay, I take this as you won't actually answer the question.
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Re: [OSM-talk] License/CT issues: Let's not punish the world's disadvantaged, pls.

[Steve Coast]

On 6/22/2011 12:51 PM, 80n wrote:
On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 7:31 PM, SteveC > wrote:


How will fosm (assuming it reaches the stage of being functional)
continue to sync with OSM when the licenses are incompatible?


1. fosm.org  is functional, you should try it.


I did. Perhaps we use different meanings for 'functional'. OSM shows you 
maps for example. Fosm has a link to 'maps' which 404s.


2. When will the license become incompatible?  The current plan 
suggests it will be a long time yet.


Timing isn't relevant to the question. Sounds like you'll have to stop 
using OSM then when it occurs.


Steve
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[OSM-talk] Fwd: [Talk-us] overwhelmed with responses on the imagery priorities

[Steve Coast]

whoops meant to go to talk...

 Original Message 
Subject:[Talk-us] overwhelmed with responses on the imagery priorities
Date:   Tue, 21 Jun 2011 11:26:16 -0700
From:   Steve Coast 
To: talk-us 



I had tons of emails in response to my request for ideas of where we
could prioritise imagery. This is not to be taken that we will
prioritise based on your input but that's my hope.

I've put the salient bits of every email in here:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bing/Priorities

If you can help me figure this in to a coherent page with some idea of
how to prioritise all the requests that would help me take this to the
next stage.

Thanks

Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] Join the OSMF !

[Steve Coast]

On 6/18/2011 12:54 PM, Russ Nelson wrote:

Erik Johansson writes:
  >  The Troll word is used so often around in this community that it's
  >  hard to speak about courtesy.

That's because SteveC uses it on people who don't agree with him.


Can you point to an example where I call someone a troll who was not 
characterized by the wikipedia definition? 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)



  It's
a form of brow-beating. Other people follow his lead.

Trolling is posting positions just to get a response, not to seek a
resolution. In fact, trolls actively avoid resolution, because they
would then have to find another topic to troll about.

Perhaps, better than accusing people of trolling (which is arguably
itself a method of trolling), is to ask people what problem they are
trying to solve with their writing. So, Dermot, why do you keep
claiming that people who accept the CT have "voted" for it?

For my part, the problem I'm trying to solve is that I don't want
anybody to think that just because I signed onto the relicensing
process, that I am in favor of it. I would be happier if suddenly
there was an earthquake, and the entire relicensing process
disappeared into the ground, never to be seen again. And that is
because I disagree with the problem statement of the
relicensing.

Ain't nobody going to benefit from taking a dead copy of the OSM data
away from us. Data is the corpse of action.  To misquote from "War
Games": The only way to win the game is to play it.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Pitiful proceedings - as usual

[Steve Coast]

I think the LWG is more than well aware that they are imperfect human 
beings volunteering in a horrible environment to make things better. 
They're well aware that people have little time to help on a 
week-to-week basis for multiple years. Which is what they've been doing.


There are indeed many resources in the community but they don't 
magically come together. You have to turn up at a workshop, to a meeting 
or a phone call. Everyone here is more than capable of that. You'd be 
welcomed and we would love your help in making things better.


That's not to say every critique has to be met with a demand you come 
volunteer to fix it, but that is the easiest and quickest way generally 
to do so.


I'd take a long look at how you have sucked up the LWGs time, Tim, 
before you make these kinds of statements.


Steve


On 6/20/2011 8:03 AM, TimSC wrote:

On 20/06/11 15:53, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

NopMap wrote:

Yeah, sure, I'll just burn some incense, look deep into my
crystal ball and guess what everybody has been doing.

Why do you need to do that? Why don't you e-mail LWG and say: "I think
you've been having difficulties with your communications. I'd like to
volunteer to be your communications officer. I'll sit in on your weekly
meetings, draw up a comms plan, and be responsible for carrying it 
through"?


cheers
Richard
It would be nice if the committee would be aware of this long standing 
problems and as for help from the community too. We have considerable 
human resources in the community and if people are over worked, 
perhaps they should delegate more?


Also, it can be that someone tried to do something they think 
constructive, they risk the ire of someone else who believes it should 
be done differently. Credo experto - believe me, i've tried.


TimSC


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[OSM-talk] Bing aerial imagery priorities

[Steve Coast]

Hi

I'm speaking personally and there are no guarantees here but I'd like to 
get input on what areas you would like Bing to prioritise for aerial 
and/or satellite imagery in the coming year. Please mail 
sco...@microsoft.com with the area in question (I'd love to accept 
bounding boxes but don't really have the time so cities/countries are 
the best).


I will pass this on to the right people and we may or may not be able to 
help.


Thanks

Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] Something between a changeset and a comment

[Steve Coast]

That's pretty.

Make things clickable? Like the username?

On 6/16/2011 2:07 PM, Richard Weait wrote:

Dear All,

Have you ever wondered about a changeset comment from a particular
mapper, but found that browsing through a changeset was a little more
involved than you had hoped?  Me too.  I've always wanted some kind of
a summary, of what is being done in a changeset, or various places.  I
still wonder.  But until somebody solves those problems, I've been
creating some daily summaries of mapping activity, by day and by
mapper.  Have a look.

http://rweait.dev.openstreetmap.org/daily

The results are in html files for browsing, and in csv if you want to
do something interesting with the raw numbers.  I thinkit would be
cool to see a bunch of histograms from this data.  Anybody want to try
that?

The html columns are sortable, but there is a known bug that means the
username column only sorts in a weird, non-sorty way.  Enjoy the other
columns.

Best regards,
Richard

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Contributor Terms

[Steve Coast]

I don't know... maybe someone on talk@ can help.

On 6/8/2011 1:20 AM, Renuka Phadnis wrote:

Hi Steve
I am a journalist at "The Hindu", a leading national newspaper in India.
I am interested in knowing if OpenStreetMap is coming any time to 
Mangalore (please note, 'M', not 'B') in Southern India.

Thanks
All wishes
Renuka Phadnis
Special Correspondent
"The Hindu"
Mangalore
Karnataka, India.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Duplicate messages

[Steve Coast]

maybe you are seeing the email to the list and the email to you too when 
someone replies


On 6/8/2011 11:37 AM, John F. Eldredge wrote:

Is anyone else seeing occasional duplicate messages on this list?  I am seeing 
some messages show up multiple times, received over a several-day period, but 
all showing the same sent date/time.  If not, this may be the fault of the new 
mail reader software I am using.


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[OSM-talk] Are you coming to London on Sunday?

[Steve Coast]

or saturday night

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/Board_Meeting_June_2011

Would be awesome to see you there

Steve

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[OSM-talk] Board meeting 10-12 June

[Steve Coast]

Dear all

The OSMF is holding a face to face meeting in London in a little over a 
week and we're opening up a day for people to come along and help the 
foundation brainstorm solutions to 2011's issues. There are also 
opportunities for socializing.


A draft agenda is here:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/Board_Meeting_June_2011

Please tell 500 of your best friends and come along, we'd love to see you.

Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] ODbL site taken over by spam

[Steve Coast]

I'm not discussing the ODbL but sure

On 5/31/2011 4:35 PM, David Murn wrote:

On Tue, 2011-05-31 at 16:12 -0700, Steve Coast wrote:

I think I know why - its because I'm coming from a microsoft.com domain!
It thinks I'm a bing crawler.

I can't be bothered to join a mailing list to do this. Maybe someone on
talk@ will care enough.

In before Frederik.. but shouldnt this discussion be taken to
talk-legal, like every other discussion of ODbL?

David




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Re: [OSM-talk] ODbL site taken over by spam

[Steve Coast]

I think I know why - its because I'm coming from a microsoft.com domain! 
It thinks I'm a bing crawler.


I can't be bothered to join a mailing list to do this. Maybe someone on 
talk@ will care enough.


tl;dr; the open data commons site has been hacked and is showing viagra 
adverts to people from certain domains.



On 5/31/2011 3:48 PM, Richard Weait wrote:

On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 6:41 PM, Henk Hoff  wrote:

That looks like some other license indeed. But  not in my browser  Even 
after several (shift) refreshes ...

Looks fine in firefox and konqueror on linux.  Page source looks fine
at a glance.

You could let them know here.
"odc-discuss"



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[OSM-talk] is it just me

[Steve Coast]

... or does this map look like an older Texas osmarender layer 
screenshot plus a tilt-shift blur added?


http://www.wm.com/contact-us.jsp


http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=29.75507&lon=-95.36237&zoom=17&layers=O


Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] Unlicensed use of the logo in iPhone app?

[Steve Coast]

Because trademark law is a different and parallel universe to copyright law.

I don't know, but I don't think we particularly want to restrict use in 
the strict sense. Trademark law is designed to do exactly what people 
here have mentioned and not let someone use our logo to confuse the 
public by, say, slapping it on a google maps app. So it's there if we 
want to use that power.


Steve


On 5/16/2011 12:40 PM, Josh Doe wrote:

Can someone explain to me how OSMF can restrict usage of the logo if
it's CC-BY-SA? Or rather, if the original logo had a more restrictive
license (and copyright was owned by OSMF), and this logo is clearly a
derivative work, then this new logo can't be CC-BY-SA, can it?

-Josh

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 2:28 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer
  wrote:

2011/5/16 Grant Slater:

On 16 May 2011 14:54, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

Is there an informal policy? If I am displaying an OSM based map, am I
generally entitled/allowed to use the logo ("OSM inside") in my
application / on my website?


Sounds ok to me, you are promoting OpenStreetMap. What would not be
cool is claiming (or misleading) that your app/website/etc _IS_
OpenStreetMap or endorsed by OpenStreetMap.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer and I do no represent OSMF.


Yes, also to me it "feels" OK, but I think the best would be to get an
official statement from OSMF when and how the logo can be used,
because I think that it is good to encourage the use of the logo, but
commercial users would not risk to use the logo if there is no formal
permit to do so.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Ipad and openstreetmap.org

[Steve Coast]

nobody has mentioned opentouchmap.org yet... so...

On 5/11/2011 6:38 AM, Martijn van Exel wrote:
While OpenLayers is not multitouch savvy, there's native apps that 
show you the map, with less or more frills tacked on.


route-me[1] (in spite of the name, this is 'just' a slippy map client 
library for iOS) is the basis for many native iOS map apps that don't 
use the built in MapKit framework (which works exclusively with Google 
Maps tiles).


An example of a nice route-me implementation (I think) is MapBox[2]. 
It can use on- and offline tiled map resources. For offline maps they 
developed an sqlite-based storage 'standard' called MBTiles.

And of course there's OffMaps[3].

[1] https://github.com/route-me/route-me
[2] http://mapbox.com/#/
[3] http://www.offmaps.com/

On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 2:06 PM, Floris Looijesteijn  
wrote:


Hey,

I was wondering if anyone is working on Ipad support for
openstreetmap.org ?
Otherwise I will start working on it myself...

At the moment you cannot scroll or zoom on our map.

From memory I think the behaviour on Android is about the same.

Greetings,
Floris Looijesteijn

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--
Martijn van Exel
http://about.me/mvexel


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[OSM-talk] advertising against google map maker

[Steve Coast]

I was curious about advertising for OSM against people searching for the 
chocolate factory maps. Hopefully those 206 clicks turned in to some 
real data but I don't want to continue to pay for the ads.


Results:

Account Overview:
206 Clicks
181,308 Impressions
0.11% Clickthrough Rate
UK£0.58 Average CPC
UK£119.52 Total Cost

Keywords with the Most Clicks:
map maker
google mapmaker
google map maker
mapmaker

Ad with the Most Clicks:
OpenStreetMap
The wikipedia of maps you can edit
Help a free, open map of the world!
openstreetmap.org


Display Sites with the Most Clicks
geology.com
maplandia.com
vpike.com
mail.google.com
ehow.com

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Re: [OSM-talk] Breaking up is hard to do (was New Logo in the Wiki)

[Steve Coast]

Oh and I missed the second half - what makes you think we appointed the 
sysadmins?


On 5/4/2011 10:23 AM, Steve Coast wrote:

So you're suggesting OSM is one of the worst project?

On 5/4/2011 10:21 AM, Nic Roets wrote:

On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Steve Coast  wrote:

... one of the best open source projects.


I rejected the CTs because I felt the OSMF* was out of touch with the
community. Your statement just reaffirms that.

*: I make no distinction between the board and the people they appoint
e.g. the sysadmins.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Breaking up is hard to do (was New Logo in the Wiki)

[Steve Coast]

So you're suggesting OSM is one of the worst project?

On 5/4/2011 10:21 AM, Nic Roets wrote:

On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 7:02 PM, Steve Coast  wrote:

... one of the best open source projects.


I rejected the CTs because I felt the OSMF* was out of touch with the
community. Your statement just reaffirms that.

*: I make no distinction between the board and the people they appoint
e.g. the sysadmins.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Breaking up is hard to do (was New Logo in the Wiki)

[Steve Coast]

I can't, but that wasn't clear to me. It's also dominant in air traffic 
control. It seems a little flimsy as a base reason to break up one of 
the best open source projects.



On 5/4/2011 10:01 AM, Nic Roets wrote:

On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 6:46 PM, Steve Coast  wrote:

I dispute point 1, if anything the project is German-centric if you look at
the depth and quantity of data?

Steve, he was talking about language, not geographical dominance. You
can't argue that English is dominant.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Breaking up is hard to do (was New Logo in the Wiki)

[Steve Coast]

I dispute point 1, if anything the project is German-centric if you look 
at the depth and quantity of data?




On 5/4/2011 9:41 AM, Serge Wroclawski wrote:

On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 2:07 AM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

Hi,

On 05/04/11 03:23, Serge Wroclawski wrote:

Dave, if you have a suggestion that would let us communicate in real
time (not over weeks via email) then please share this with the group.

The alternative to communicating in real-time is fundamentally changing your
organisational structure to reduce international decision-making to an
absolute bare minimum by devolution.

For example, move to a kind of distributed software/database architecture,
incorporate OpenStreetMap Australia, let them collect their own funds,
operate their own database, make their own decisions, have their own logo,
have their own project main page, have their own strategy working group,
have their own license, and so on.

I've thought about this myself; would it be better to have separate,
smaller instances of OSM, the way Wikipedia does.

In the end I concluded not, but I thought I'd lay out the argument,
just for discussion sake.

Arguments for Breaking OSM up:

1. Removes project language barrier

OSM is nearly entirely Anglo-centric. We have a large number of German
speakers, but the project, as its core, is English. This creates a
barrier to entry for many folks.

2. Allows for more adoption of local-centric tagging.

If one country has road classifications that make sense, it can use
them, and not need to adopt OSM standards.

3. It allows for local features

Some features only exist in certain places, and so it makes sense for
those local features to be in a local tagging set, but not another.

4. It eliminates part of the issue we have around times/timezones.

Unless you live in Russia, your country has a small number of
timezones, and so organizing meetings and events is not as
challenging.


Ultimately, though, I think this is the wrong approach, and here's why:

1. Translation software exists.

Tags don't need to be displayed to the end user unless they want to
see them, just as few people see raw column names when they edit a
form on a web site.

As editors become increasingly sophisticated, the issues around
translation will reduce over time.

2. OSM is its own de-faco standards body.

By needing to classifications from various countries, I find the OSM
{tax|folks}onomy to overall be very robust. Since we have to deal with
so many variations, we tend to create classifications that work at a
very granular level, but because we're human beings mapping on the
ground, the classifications tend to be useful for other human beings
in a way that's largely intuitive.

I don't think we'd have that kind of clean tagging across the board
unless we had the necessity.

3. Local features are interesting, and the discussions we have on
meaning is educational

I like to bring up this discussion when talking about OSM tagging to
strangers. Someone on the list wanted to create a tag for US "Notary
Publics", often just called "Notaries".

Someone in France spoke up and said "I agree, we should have a tag for
lawyers and notaries".

This brought up a very interesting discussion on the differences
between the legal systems of the US, France, the UK, and Australia.

Each of these countries had a slightly different meaning for the word
notary, along with a different role that a notary plays.

By discussing this difference up front, all of us received some
education on legal systems, but were also then forced to define our
terms, which bring us back to our robust tagging system.

5. If we don't unify the tags up front, we have to unify them later.

Our users have gotten used to maps that "just work" across the world.
If they get broken up, someone will later have to re-assemble them,
and they're bound to do it badly because of the lack of the robust
discussions that happen.

6. Wikipedia's break is not purely country-based

Let's not forget that Wikipedia needs to break itself up because of
linguistic issues, as well as some cultural ones.

We have done very well unifiying our datasets.

7. No turf wars

Right now, I'm as largely comfortable mapping wherever I am. With
separate instances, I could easily be setting myself up for all kinds
of issues, from the technical (getting a different set of credentials)
to tagging, to mores of "You aren't to map this area because our local
rules say it belongs to BigMeanUser."

8. OSM can be more robust than the nations themselves.

It's hard to realize sometimes, but in the last year, look at how much
political unrest has occurred in the Middle East. And I'm old enough
to remember all the new maps that needed to be created after the
Soviet Union fell. OSM may end up being more long lasting than the
nations it maps. So let's not tie ourselves to them.


Anyway it's just a thought exercise, and I'm fairly sure Frederik was
joking (I don't get German humor).

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Steve Coast]

Everything would be better if Dave F. was in charge. The trains would 
run on time, logos would go through his personal approval process and 
unicorns would frolic near a turquoise lake in the sun.


So, anyway, Grant was trying to be nice to you and offering to bring you 
in to the process that everyone else is happy with. Don't throw it back 
in his face.


Steve


On 5/3/2011 4:53 PM, Dave F. wrote:

On 02/05/2011 13:36, Grant Slater wrote:

OK, lets find a time that works better. World Time Server Meeting
planner: http://bit.ly/kBuc2L
1pm UTC seems like the best option to me or what do you think? Or
maybe we should alternate?


What part of "Don't use IRC" did you not comprehend?

Just because you've got used to having disturbed sleep cycles does not 
make it a universal useful discussion forum.


If you & OSMF & SWG (or whatever you call yourselves nowadays) insist 
on using IRC you'll have to put up with the dissenting calls of 
intentional exclusivity.


Dave F.


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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Steve Coast]

Very nice. My favorite is the twitter one.

On 4/30/2011 9:41 PM, Andreas Perstinger wrote:

On 2011-05-01 00:48, Robert Naylor wrote:

Quick animated gif of the change:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Oldtonew_logo.gif

Its not that much of a change - its still very much the OSM logo, as
is the numerous other version currently in use.


+1.

A quick Google search shows some examples of logo changes from well know
companies/organizations which didn't fail afterwards.

I would consider the current change more like an bigger edit on the map
or on the wiki. Much ado about nothing :-)

NFL: http://i.usatoday.net/sports/_photos/2007/08/30/shield3-large.jpg
Pepsi: http://web.mac.com/arnold_zwicky/pepsilogochange.gif
Days Inn:
http://www.namedevelopment.com/blog/archives/days_inn_logo_change_1.gif
Google: http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4061/4583055527_3849f4d8f0.jpg
Twitter:
http://www.brandflakesforbreakfast.com/uploaded_images/twitter-logo-change-709357.jpg 



Bye, Andreas

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Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Steve Coast]

Agreed.

On 4/30/2011 7:31 PM, Mikel Maron wrote:

David, this is complete nonsense. Please stop.
-Mikel



*From:* David Murn 
*To:* SteveC 
*Cc:* "talk@openstreetmap.org" 
*Sent:* Sat, April 30, 2011 6:15:08 PM
*Subject:* Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

On Sat, 2011-04-30 at 09:03 -0700, SteveC wrote:
> You will also find discussion of this list in that meeting. If I had
> posted the new logo idea here before doing anything there would have
> been a gigantic discussion on it and nothing would happen.

What a load of bollocks.  Has the OSMF ever changed its direction or
strategy after feedback from this list?  The various committees do what
they please when they please, that wont change.  It appears that the
announcement here HAS caused a gigantic discussion, and while a small
part has been about the logo change, a big part of the discussion is the
way that we as a community are treated.  If SWG and OSMF feel they have
the power to do what they want without consulting the community, then
those handful of mappers should be the ones mapping and not be using the
efforts of the community they refuse to consult with.  Maybe SWG needs
to comprehend what the O in OSM means, it doesnt mean you make major
decisions behind closed doors, document them with a 3 word note in the
minutes and refuse to discuss with the community because it might cause
a big discussion, even aware that once the community becomes aware of
their change, a big discussion will ensue anyway.

> Any progress at all in any direction now means at least 5 or 10 people
> on this list don't like it.

So, the OSM executive committee (which as some people like to keep
pointing out is a registered non-profit in some countries) doesnt like
seeking input from the community (of apparently 200k+ people) because
5-10 might dislike their idea?  Seriously, where did we find this
handful of people who cant handle a couple of people disliking their
ideas?  Apparently watching this discussion.

>From what Ive seen in the ensuing discussion, the feedback to the logo
itself was mostly positive, the displeasure has been with the process
used to change things.  Sadly this is pretty much on-par with what we're
starting to expect from those in power lately.

>  That makes it very hard for anyone to achieve anything without
>  treating this list as noise. We need to get away from that. Any ideas
>  appreciated.

My idea is that OSMF should treat the OSM community as the public they
serve, rather than a bunch of noise.  Exactly how strong does OSMF think
the project and data would be, if everyone who had an opinion (who wasnt
a financial member of some overseas non-profit) was banned?

David

> On Apr 30, 2011, at 7:23, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer 
mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com>> wrote:

>
> > 2011/4/30 Mikel Maron >:

> >> From: Simon Poole mailto:si...@poole.ch>>
> >>> While I don't quite understand why the SWG has turned in to the 
WDWG (Web

> >>> Design Working Group)
> >> SWG has taken this on because the usability of the site is a the 
primary way
> >> users, new and old, engage with OSM, there are definitely issues 
with it.

> >
> >
> > the logo is not an usability topic.
> >
> >
> >> Yet, in yesterday's meeting, we realized that actually doing 
anything would

> >> be a good start.
> >
> >
> > Yes, looking at the working group log, I realized that. Looks like
> > Steve posted this proposal [1] he found in the web (or someone sent
> > him), and one day later some logos are changed on the front page (some
> > still are old versions).
> >
> > There is two quotes I want to cite from the log:
> >
> > 1.
> > (12:38:15 PM) SteveC: TomH: how is rails 3 coming BTW?
> > (12:39:02 PM) TomH: oh it mostly works, but there's an issue with our
> > multi-part primary keys that is giving me grief
> > (12:39:11 PM) TomH: that's the only thing causing test failures 
now though

> >
> > 2.
> > "(12:42:31 PM) SteveC: wonderchook: and I have opinions on Fukushima
> > despite not being a nuclear engineer, but it's much better to have
> > people work on design who... know how to design and build things"
> >
> > It's not that I necessarily prefer the old logo above the one that is
> > there at the moment, it is the process I want to point at. Why, if
> > there are apparently no designers in the SWG, should there be such a
> > hurry (and why should they decide at all, maybe setting up a design
> > group would be a better alternative)? The logo change is a big deal,
> > it affects hundreds of sites (also of other people using OSM data and
> > show the logo), stickers, t-shirts, cups, flyers and other print
> > material and maps(!)...
> >
> > Usually changing the logo is not a oneliner, it is an iterative
> > process. Make some proposals, choose the aspects you like, recombine
> > them, ...
> >
> > Like software deployment requires testing (see irc-log above, 1.) the
> > same is valid (in

Re: [OSM-talk] New Logo in the Wiki

[Steve Coast]

Is there an SVG version or did I miss it?

On 4/30/2011 9:32 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote:

2011/4/30 Frederik Ramm:

I like the haphazard way in which things are done around here. And I'm not
saying this tongue-in-cheek, I really do. It gives me hope that we're not
yet in a situation where every improvement has to go through some sort of
complicated three-level approval process.


I also had a side thought on this, and I am glad you described this so
well, so the logical next step this way would be to fix the first
issue (perspective) by exchanging it with your fix:
http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/osmlogo.png

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] License graph

[Steve Coast]

...which is ignoring the 70% or so of all of those people who never 
edited and can be switched over without incident.


On 4/18/2011 11:49 AM, Toby Murray wrote:

As a side question: how many users still need to either accept or decline?

A lot. If you look at the two files that I am using to pull data from,
you will see the users_agreed.txt file has a header in it explaining
that there are 286,582 users that signed up before the new CT was put
into place for new users last year. Just under 11,000 have voted. So
3.8% of those who can vote have voted.

Toby

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Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box

[Steve Coast]

And there was me rushing to have it done by the 15th...


On 4/18/2011 11:35 AM, John F. Eldredge wrote:

This year, the deadline for filing the Federal income-tax return in the USA is 
April 18th, and some states have probably altered their schedules to match.

---Original Email---
Subject :Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box
 From  :mailto:st...@asklater.com
Date  :Mon Apr 18 13:29:00 America/Chicago 2011


Aren't you a few days late? :-)

On 4/18/2011 8:27 AM, Toby Murray wrote:

For what it's worth, I just legally "signed" my state tax return with
nothing but a checkbox on a web form...

Toby

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Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box

[Steve Coast]

Aren't you a few days late? :-)

On 4/18/2011 8:27 AM, Toby Murray wrote:

For what it's worth, I just legally "signed" my state tax return with
nothing but a checkbox on a web form...

Toby

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[OSM-talk] PD tick box

[Steve Coast]

Today I watched a few people sign up for OSM and they all ticked the PD 
box without even looking at it, it was very entertaining.


Steve

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[OSM-talk] Fwd: Fwd: Re: Hoping you can point me in the right direction.

[Steve Coast]

oops think I sent this to talk-IT too...

 Original Message 
Subject: 	[OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Hoping you can point me in the right 
direction.

Date:   Mon, 11 Apr 2011 17:58:25 -0700
From:   Steve Coast 
To: talk@openstreetmap.org





 Original Message 
Subject:Re: Hoping you can point me in the right direction.
Date:   Tue, 12 Apr 2011 11:00:51 +1000
From:   R Lynch 
To: Steve Coast 



Sorry yes thank you

Sent from my iPhone

On 12/04/2011, at 8:10 AM, Steve Coast <mailto:st...@asklater.com>> wrote:


you mailed the OSMF board which isn't set up or designed to help with 
what you want, we have mailing lists with people who can help you 
though, so I'm offering to connect you to them


On 4/11/2011 3:11 PM, R Lynch wrote:

Steve,

Sorry im lost, What do you mean mailing list?

Robert



Sent from my iPhone

On 12/04/2011, at 7:40 AM, Steve Coast <mailto:st...@asklater.com>> wrote:



Robert

Can I forward this to our mailing lists?

Steve

On 4/10/2011 7:44 PM, Robert Lynch wrote:


Hi Steve,

My name is Robert Lynch and I am the owner of a few small transport 
companies in Australia. Over the past 12 months I have been 
building a new transport, logistics and recruitment software to 
Launch in Australia. As part of this software we are looking for 
routing solutions and direct guidance for the drivers and a few 
other unique developments for this industry.


Currently there is nothing like this in the market place and can be 
quickly replicated for other areas around the world.


What i would like to do is speak with someone to see how we can 
partner up through a Joint venture or any other means.


I hope to hear from you soon

*_Robert F. Lynch_*

*Head office:   1300 400 450*

*Direct line:  (02) 8093-1207*

*Fax:(02) 8093-1243*

*Mobile:0403 753 371*



*/PART OF THE DYNAMIC GROUP OF COMPANIES/*

We now do Point-to-Point in Sydney:

*www.dynamicexpress.com.au;* <http://www.a-p-m.com.au/>

Formally All Purpose Messengers; Delivering Excellent since 1954*/__/*

This email and any attached files are confidential. They are 
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom 
they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, 
please notify the sender by return email, and delete the original.


All outgoing emails and attached files are virus scanned, but we do 
not represent that this email and any attached files are free from 
computer viruses or other defects. Further, we do not accept any 
liability for any damage caused by this email or attachments


   



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[OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Hoping you can point me in the right direction.

[Steve Coast]

 Original Message 
Subject:Re: Hoping you can point me in the right direction.
Date:   Tue, 12 Apr 2011 11:00:51 +1000
From:   R Lynch 
To: Steve Coast 



Sorry yes thank you

Sent from my iPhone

On 12/04/2011, at 8:10 AM, Steve Coast <mailto:st...@asklater.com>> wrote:


you mailed the OSMF board which isn't set up or designed to help with 
what you want, we have mailing lists with people who can help you 
though, so I'm offering to connect you to them


On 4/11/2011 3:11 PM, R Lynch wrote:

Steve,

Sorry im lost, What do you mean mailing list?

Robert



Sent from my iPhone

On 12/04/2011, at 7:40 AM, Steve Coast <mailto:st...@asklater.com>> wrote:



Robert

Can I forward this to our mailing lists?

Steve

On 4/10/2011 7:44 PM, Robert Lynch wrote:


Hi Steve,

My name is Robert Lynch and I am the owner of a few small transport 
companies in Australia. Over the past 12 months I have been 
building a new transport, logistics and recruitment software to 
Launch in Australia. As part of this software we are looking for 
routing solutions and direct guidance for the drivers and a few 
other unique developments for this industry.


Currently there is nothing like this in the market place and can be 
quickly replicated for other areas around the world.


What i would like to do is speak with someone to see how we can 
partner up through a Joint venture or any other means.


I hope to hear from you soon

*_Robert F. Lynch_*

*Head office:   1300 400 450*

*Direct line:  (02) 8093-1207*

*Fax:(02) 8093-1243*

*Mobile:0403 753 371*



*/PART OF THE DYNAMIC GROUP OF COMPANIES/*

We now do Point-to-Point in Sydney:

*www.dynamicexpress.com.au;* <http://www.a-p-m.com.au/>

Formally All Purpose Messengers; Delivering Excellent since 1954*/__/*

This email and any attached files are confidential. They are 
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom 
they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, 
please notify the sender by return email, and delete the original.


All outgoing emails and attached files are virus scanned, but we do 
not represent that this email and any attached files are free from 
computer viruses or other defects. Further, we do not accept any 
liability for any damage caused by this email or attachments


   



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Re: [OSM-talk] We Need to Stop Google's Exploitation of Open Communities

[Steve Coast]

I think 'sucking the life' is a bit of a strong term.

On 4/11/2011 11:49 AM, Serge Wroclawski wrote:

Mikel,

It's indeed a scary prospect to have Google sucking the life out of
our burgeoning community.

What suggestions do you have/actions are you taking[1] to help us
compete with Google?

- Serge

[1] Either as an individual or as part of the OSM Foundation board.

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[OSM-talk] Fwd: Fwd: Re: Possible fundraising channel for the OpenStreetMap project.

[Steve Coast]

 might be of interest...

 Original Message 
Subject:Re: Possible fundraising channel for the OpenStreetMap project.
Date:   Sat, 9 Apr 2011 01:50:57 +1000
From:   Leigh Hanney 
To: Steve Coast 



Hey Steve,

Yes, please do! If you have any questions, let me know.

Leigh

On Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 1:32 AM, Steve Coast <mailto:ste...@osmfoundation.org>> wrote:


   hi Leigh

   can I fwd this on to more people at OSM?


   On 4/6/2011 9:01 PM, Leigh Hanney wrote:

Hi Steve, Simone and Emilie

I hope this email finds you and OSM well.

I wanted to reach out to you as we have developed a crowdfunding
application that may be a fantastic addition to openstreetmap's
current fundraising efforts - http://fundry.com

The application is pretty self-explanatory but to
summarise, Fundry is designed around actual software related
projects, with the main focus being on helping developers get paid
for developing new features.

In addition we also enable your community to pledge money to get
the actual features they want which we believe is a lot more
effective than a simple 'donate' button.

Fundry can also be used to raise capital for hardware, hosting and
other management / maintenance costs. Endless possibilities!

That said though, as Fundry can also accept basic donations, it
could actually serve to replace your existing donations button,
with the added bonus of pledges, projects and features thrown in!

Sorry for the long email. Feel free to find out more about how it
works here: http://fundry.com/about , or just drop me an email
with any questions and I'd be happy to help.

Previous applications we've developed that you may have heard
about include retailmenot.com <http://retailmenot.com>,
bugmenot.com <http://bugmenot.com>, trendsmap.com
<http://trendsmap.com>, and CushyCMS.com




Sincerely


Leigh Hanney

Head of Marketing  |  Stateless Systems
+61 409 006 628 

Fundry.com
CushyCMS.com
Trendsmap.com
Droolr.com



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[OSM-talk] April fools that should have been

[Steve Coast]

* Replace OSM front page with google maps

* HOT announce zombie apocalypse response team

* OSM made official royal wedding map

Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] Okay, this is just cool (Lockport, NY)

[Steve Coast]

Ok I think it's shameful how bad the mapping was there so I added a 
bunch of trees, car parks, the park, some buildings...


Let's see how good we can make Lockport, NY ?

Steve

On 3/30/2011 2:53 PM, Russ Nelson wrote:

No, I have no idea why this is here, but I'll nominate it for the Image
of the Week.  43' 9" N / 78' 42" W is NOT this location.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=43.1789745390415&lon=-78.7073448300362&zoom=1



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Re: [OSM-talk] Interested in Assisting Newbies to Help Map Japan?

[Steve Coast]

how about pointing them at

http://irc.openstreemap.org/ ?

it's not perfect, but... better than nothing

On 3/15/2011 10:09 AM, Kate Chapman wrote:

Hey All,

CrisisCommons has a bunch of volunteers who would like to help map
Japan.  They have never mapped in OpenStreetMap before.

Is anyone interested in helping them along?  It was suggested making a
quick Youtube video (similar to what I did for Haiti:
http://www.youtube.com/wonderchook#p/a/u/2/D6pBBK1SHh0).  I just don't
have any bandwidth to take this on at the moment.

They were also hoping someone could answer some questions over Skype.

If anyone is interested let me know.

Thanks,

Kate
user:wonderchook

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Re: [OSM-talk] Zero tolerance on imports

[Steve Coast]

I prefer this idea:

mapnik etc could render only objects with version 2 or higher. Not only 
does that block out imports, but now we're at the point of completing 
various areas, it will make people go back and check them.


But they will just go and make tiny changes to increment the 
version without checking


yea yeah


On 2/19/2011 5:04 PM, Andrew Errington wrote:

On Sun, 20 Feb 2011 09:40:03 Frederik Ramm wrote:

Finally, all these warnings must sound hollow to someone who lives in a
place where 90% of data around him is imported. You will have a hard
time telling him that imports are bad.

I live in a place where 90% of the data is imported.  Imports are bad.  It's
bad because I discover errors and start to think 'How many more errors must
there be?'.  It's mainly bad for two reasons.  Firstly, the data is old, and
there has been a significant road-building program going on here for a while.
Secondly, things don't join up because the import processing didn't process
road junctions properly, so routing doesn't work (until mappers go around and
join them up).

IMHO imports should exist as 'ghost objects' or 'pencil lines'.  They should
never render on Mapnik etc. and never be used for routing, but a mapper with
local knowledge should be able to verify the objects and change them to a
real object (i.e. 'ink them in').

Of course, if we had one million mappers here they could all take a quick look
at their local area and fix the mistakes in a couple of days...

Best wishes,

Andrew

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[OSM-talk] Shutting down transiki & glider

[Steve Coast]

I'm offering anyone who wants to take over transiki or glider the chance 
to do so, and their domains will auto-expire otherwise. Changing jobs, 
continuing OSM work and lack of bandwidth is why.


Transiki.org, a transit wiki got initial buzz and followers on the list 
but I've just not had the time to finish it to the point where it was 
complete. There are even pending patches to check. It would probably 
take a few weeks of rails work and then a lot of iteration and fighting 
the GTFS crowd to make it fly.


Gliderhq.com was a ruby on rails presentation system where people could 
help by choosing which slides came next, comment on slides, chat about 
them and so on while a presentation was going on. It's been static since 
I built version 1.0


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Re: [OSM-talk] What the license change is going to do to the map

[Steve Coast]

+1

> -Original Message-
> From: Al Haraka [mailto:alhar...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 9:15 AM
> To: Talk Openstreetmap
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] What the license change is going to do to the map
> 
> On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 11:17 AM, Anthony  wrote:
> > http://www.sharedmap.org/bna.html
> > http://www.sharedmap.org/before.PNG
> > http://www.sharedmap.org/after.PNG
> 
> I enjoy a thread that is well on its way to a flame war as much as the
> next guy, but do you mind telling us the methodology used to achieve
> this result?  Last time it was discussed, there was a lot of debate on
> how to properly tag a node, way, or relation as license compatible or
> not because this is a multi-user system.  I am curious: how did you
> reach your conclusions?
> 
> >
> > ___
> > talk mailing list
> > talk@openstreetmap.org
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> 
> ___
> talk mailing list
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> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk



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[OSM-talk] magical road detector to play with

[Steve Coast]

http://www.bing.com/community/site_blogs/b/maps/archive/2011/02/03/automatic
ally-detect-roads-with-bing-aerial-imagery.aspx

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[OSM-talk] What phones do OSMers have?

[Steve Coast]

I'm curious. So here's a little survey, people like you take a second to
answer it;

 

http://bit.ly/ii3cKg

 

Specifically I'm wondering if everyone has androids because we're all open
source nuts or if it's more balanced? Only the data will show.

 

Steve

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] some interesting points from the bing license

[Steve Coast]

> Open initiatives from both MapQuest and Bing, built upon the work of
> countless OSM contributors and F/LOSS tools, combined in one place to help
> me make an improvement in OpenStreetMap?  I think that's nice to see.

Me too!


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Re: [OSM-talk] pub vs bar vs club

[Steve Coast]

On Jun 4, 2009, at 5:26 PM, Evans, David wrote:

> Is it just me or was that really painful?
>
> Have we really got to a stage where people need to be told how a  
> night out progresses from a pub to a nightclub? What are people  
> doing with their time?!

I for one welcome the day that we approach talk-de in our level of  
debate.

I'm told there were >180 messages to talk-it on whether to follow the  
national road classifications for primary, secondary etc or to bend  
the rules and denote something that looked primary but was officially  
secondary.

Best

Steve

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