Re: [Talk-it] Fwd: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam
Bitkoin: questa derivazione cos'è? http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/36016287 per il momento mi sono limitato a modificare il tag note = Please don't create new venues unless they have physical presence on ground - -- cascafico.altervista.org twitter.com/cascafico -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Fwd-OSM-talk-Bitcoin-Spam-tp5788483p5799245.html Sent from the Italy General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam
On 12/6/13 7:00 AM, Martin wrote 2013/12/5 Paul Norman penor...@mac.com Generally they?re not offices but mailboxes in post offices that are the problem. They get tagged, but if you go there, all that?s there is a private post office. because you checked this personally? How would you know that these are mailboxes and not offices? of course they haven't all been checked personally, but it's not uncommon for these types of mail order and/or online only businesses to have a mailbox at a private business that specializes in mailboxes and mailing services. i've been a participant in the anti-spam community for, well, since there's been spam, and this is pretty common with spammers, so it's a very familiar pattern to me (which is not to say that bitcoin merchants operating from mailboxes are equivalent, just that it's a very economical model for someone working from home in their pajamas). so no, it hasn't been checked, but it's very likely. there's a distinction to be drawn here, i think, between individual merchants taking bitcoin and the folks entering data from lists. the former may need a little education, the latter may need a lot of education and based on Serge's comments, they may not be interested in being educated. we should not be permitting the latter to blow off the rules and requirements of our community if that is what they are doing. richard signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam
Generally they’re not offices but mailboxes in post offices that are the problem. They get tagged, but if you go there, all that’s there is a private post office. From: Martin Koppenhoefer [mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 7:39 AM To: Ed Loach Cc: osm Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam 2013/12/4 Ed Loach edlo...@gmail.com If I'm following correctly the problem is that they have no physical presence as a shop, but are online only businesses. With no physical presence mapping them becomes somewhat difficult. The one I mentioned earlier is one Discogs user tagging their home as a shop with a link to their user page on the site. Would you want every eBay seller to do similar? this is not at all comparable to an ebay-seller, because these weren't coords of their clients but (supposedly) of their office, hence this is like saying we don't want ebay's office because they are not a shop and you cannot go there to buy something. I do agree, if there is _nothing_ (not the seat of the company, no office) than it is spam, but if there is an office it doesn't matter if this is open to the public or how big it is, my requirement would be that it is tagged as what it is. The whole world of office-tags is about places which aren't shops. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam
2013/12/5 Paul Norman penor...@mac.com Generally they’re not offices but mailboxes in post offices that are the problem. They get tagged, but if you go there, all that’s there is a private post office. because you checked this personally? How would you know that these are mailboxes and not offices? I agree that there are quite probably some mailbox-only businesses in the short list Frederik has posted (i.e. they have been inserted at their legally registered address and not form their operating base), but discriminating them solely based on the fact that they didn't use an explicit shop tag or office tag and that they accept bitcoin payments doesn't look right neither. I have checked the second example of Freds list (via Streetview) and it looks as if there is a computer repair shop (or some related office): https://maps.google.it/maps?q=Noosphere+Limitedhl=dell=41.417178,-81.693306spn=0.013452,0.027788cid=4977184682897610927gl=ITt=mz=16layer=ccbll=41.417948,-81.694777panoid=ONU6tFeKPE5-KyYoBq-1fgcbp=12,18.93,,1,0.76 I think this POI is incomplete, but not spam: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2523904649 Also this one: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2537387222 (webhost poland) is consistent (address and position in OSM): http://www.webhost.pl/kontakt cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam
Yes, I have checked a number of them. I can sometimes find the website of the private post office with their mailboxes, sometimes I can find sites listing 100 businesses at the same address when location is clearly a small location within a strip mall. From: Martin Koppenhoefer [mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 4:24 AM To: Paul Norman Cc: Ed Loach; osm Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam 2013/12/5 Paul Norman penor...@mac.com Generally they’re not offices but mailboxes in post offices that are the problem. They get tagged, but if you go there, all that’s there is a private post office. because you checked this personally? How would you know that these are mailboxes and not offices? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam
Hello! The guy behind CoinMap here. I was invited by mgehling to join the discussion, thanks! Like it was said, it's correct that I don't want entities on map, that don't have brick-and-mortar presence. Sadly lots of people think of CoinMap/OSM as a cheap way how to advertise their e-shop/online presence. I was and still I am removing such entries, but the interest in the service has gone exponential and it's simply too much effort for just me. Fortunately more people have stepped up and are doing the same thing now. What would probably be a good thing is to come up with a separate subpage of CoinMap that will explain more precisely how to add a new POI, that one has to fill in required geo-data as well and that not BM stuff is not wanted on CoinMap/OSM. Also probably replace the video with sets of screenshots, because they are easier to edit in the future. Do you want to help with the wording and/or screenshot tutorial? If yes, what would be a preferred platform for shared editing of document? PiratePad/GoogleDocs? Thanks! -- Best Regards / S pozdravom, Pavol Rusnak st...@gk2.sk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam
Hi Pavol, probably to part of prevent this issue you could allow your users to add their non-brick-and-mortar businesses to a separate database you manage. You could list them in the search, but not show them on the map. Probably it's possible to work out a solution where these businesses could define their operation area (e.g. by defining the city, country or setting it to global). I guess e-businesses have a legitime interest in being found on a bitcoin accepting businesses directory, but not necessarily on being shown on a bitcoin map. Nevertheless these are near to each other, so perhaps you could think about that as well. regards Peter Am 04.12.2013 11:44, schrieb Pavol Rusnak: Hello! The guy behind CoinMap here. I was invited by mgehling to join the discussion, thanks! Like it was said, it's correct that I don't want entities on map, that don't have brick-and-mortar presence. Sadly lots of people think of CoinMap/OSM as a cheap way how to advertise their e-shop/online presence. I was and still I am removing such entries, but the interest in the service has gone exponential and it's simply too much effort for just me. Fortunately more people have stepped up and are doing the same thing now. What would probably be a good thing is to come up with a separate subpage of CoinMap that will explain more precisely how to add a new POI, that one has to fill in required geo-data as well and that not BM stuff is not wanted on CoinMap/OSM. Also probably replace the video with sets of screenshots, because they are easier to edit in the future. Do you want to help with the wording and/or screenshot tutorial? If yes, what would be a preferred platform for shared editing of document? PiratePad/GoogleDocs? Thanks! ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam
I guess e-businesses have a legitime interest in being found on a bitcoin accepting businesses directory, but not necessarily on being shown on a bitcoin map. One I edited recently (probably - is there any way of telling for sure if the edit has come via coinmap) was a user at Discogs who had linked to his user page there. I've left his address on the node. Ah, and the user has edited again since: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2564289615/history I'll leave it this time though as I don't want to get in an edit war. Ed ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam
Ed Loach wrote: I guess e-businesses have a legitime interest in being found on a bitcoin accepting businesses directory, but not necessarily on being shown on a bitcoin map. One I edited recently (probably - is there any way of telling for sure if the edit has come via coinmap) was a user at Discogs who had linked to his user page there. I've left his address on the node. Ah, and the user has edited again since: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2564289615/history I'll leave it this time though as I don't want to get in an edit war. This is where a fixed list of 'shop' designations would help. That one will never show up as a shop anyway? But the question is probably what should be in the name field? The original entries were obviously wrong, and the current tags are better ... except for name? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam
Peter Wendorff wrote: but they are no shops, and they should not be tagged as being shops. You cannot go to the corresponding address and do something - as a usual client. access=email_only :) The address is not a problem since we want them detailed, it is only the extra tags? But I like the idea of 'office' rather than shop, that makes more sense? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam
2013/12/4 Ed Loach edlo...@gmail.com If I'm following correctly the problem is that they have no physical presence as a shop, but are online only businesses. With no physical presence mapping them becomes somewhat difficult. The one I mentioned earlier is one Discogs user tagging their home as a shop with a link to their user page on the site. Would you want every eBay seller to do similar? this is not at all comparable to an ebay-seller, because these weren't coords of their clients but (supposedly) of their office, hence this is like saying we don't want ebay's office because they are not a shop and you cannot go there to buy something. I do agree, if there is _nothing_ (not the seat of the company, no office) than it is spam, but if there is an office it doesn't matter if this is open to the public or how big it is, my requirement would be that it is tagged as what it is. The whole world of office-tags is about places which aren't shops. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam
On 03.12.2013 23:10, Frederik Ramm wrote: For two of your examples¹ I have to confess that I sometimes also map only the name or the name and the address plus a describing note if it is too difficult to find a matching tag for a shop, craft or similar. So I wouldn't consider these POI as SPAM just because they came in a wave of bitcoin-tagging Regards Thomas ¹ A few examples: node id=252007 version=1 timestamp=2013-11-04T17:56:44Z uid=1795331 user=The Tobacco Seed Company changeset=18716456 lat=51.5442768 lon=0.7236584 tag k=name v=The Tobacco Seed Company/ tag k=payment:bitcoin v=yes/ tag k=website v=http://www.tobaccoseed.co.uk/ /node This is blatant advertising for a web site. It doesn't even say what kind of shop this is supposed to be. [...] node id=2540057545 version=1 timestamp=2013-11-19T18:09:14Z uid=1651798 user=oldenburg69 changeset=18998877 lat=36.2026532 lon=-115.0597195 tag k=addr:city v=Las Vegas/ tag k=addr:housenumber v=5216/ tag k=addr:postcode v=89156/ tag k=addr:street v=Glendale Ave./ tag k=name v=Hannig Fab Works/ tag k=note v=Hannig Fab Works LLC is a custom metal fabrication shop specializing in creating high quality metal fixtures, custom fabrication and metal art to customers in the Southern Nevada and abroad via the internet./ tag k=payment:bitcoin v=yes/ tag k=website v=http://www.hannigfabworks.com// /node Tagging is ok as far as the address node is concerned, but without a shop tag the rest is kind of useless, and the note tag is not for your marketing tagline. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[Talk-it] Fwd: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam
Dato che si è parlato di bitcoin e di Coinmap anche su questa lista, segnalo questo thread nella lista internazionale. Si parla di alcuni negozi che hanno una sede legale ma non un vero e proprio negozio fisico, ma solo on-line. Ciao, Cristian -- Forwarded message -- From: Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org Date: 2013/12/3 Subject: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam To: Talk Openstreetmap t...@openstreetmap.org Hi, we're seeing a rising number of new ways and nodes which seem to be added by people who create an account for just one purpose, namely adding a business to the map. This could be great - if every business were to add themselves to the map, we'd have a nice collection of POIs. However, in the case at hand, it seems that the interest is not to improve OSM but instead we're just a vehicle for people to show up on the coinmap, a business directory for bitcoin-accepting businesses. It seems that a name and payment:bitcoin=yes is sufficient for that site, with an optional advertising slug in the note tag. But for us, not so much. First of all because advertising has no room in OSM; second because many of these businesses seem to be not really on the ground (but just a mail-order place that wants to have some marker somewhere), third because they often don't contain even minimal information that would make them useful to us. I've collected these objects created in the past couple of days here http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/bitcoin.osc A few examples: node id=252007 version=1 timestamp=2013-11-04T17:56:44Z uid=1795331 user=The Tobacco Seed Company changeset=18716456 lat=51.5442768 lon=0.7236584 tag k=name v=The Tobacco Seed Company/ tag k=payment:bitcoin v=yes/ tag k=website v=http://www.tobaccoseed.co.uk/ /node This is blatant advertising for a web site. It doesn't even say what kind of shop this is supposed to be. node id=2523904649 version=1 timestamp=2013-11-08T04:46:05Z uid=1798995 user=mkondratov changeset=18776505 lat=41.4183069 lon=-81.694649 tag k=name v=Noosphere Ltd, Computer Repair/ tag k=note v=Computer Repair Services/ tag k=payment:bitcoin v=yes/ tag k=phone v=1-216-459-1994/ tag k=website v=http://www.noospherecomputers.com/ /node This, too, is little more than a name on our map. We don't usually include the field of business in the name - this should have been expressed through a proper shop tag. node id=2526590372 version=1 timestamp=2013-11-10T15:46:58Z uid=1801179 user=79s VOF changeset=18818705 lat=52.372218 lon=4.8653634 tag k=name v=79s VOF/ tag k=payment:bitcoin v=yes/ tag k=website v=https://store.79s.co/ /node Spam. node id=2537387222 version=1 timestamp=2013-11-18T01:07:54Z uid=1809524 user=webhostpl changeset=18964238 lat=50.0727563 lon=19.8938861 tag k=domeny v=/ tag k=hosting v=/ tag k=name v=Webhost.pl/ tag k=payment:bitcoin v=yes/ tag k=strony internetowe v=/ tag k=website v=http://www.webhost.pl/ /node Broken tagging (quite frequent). node id=2540057545 version=1 timestamp=2013-11-19T18:09:14Z uid=1651798 user=oldenburg69 changeset=18998877 lat=36.2026532 lon=-115.0597195 tag k=addr:city v=Las Vegas/ tag k=addr:housenumber v=5216/ tag k=addr:postcode v=89156/ tag k=addr:street v=Glendale Ave./ tag k=name v=Hannig Fab Works/ tag k=note v=Hannig Fab Works LLC is a custom metal fabrication shop specializing in creating high quality metal fixtures, custom fabrication and metal art to customers in the Southern Nevada and abroad via the internet./ tag k=payment:bitcoin v=yes/ tag k=website v=http://www.hannigfabworks.com// /node Tagging is ok as far as the address node is concerned, but without a shop tag the rest is kind of useless, and the note tag is not for your marketing tagline. node id=2548748273 version=1 timestamp=2013-11-24T14:38:32Z uid=1817212 user=l337 PLace changeset=19091714 lat=60.1491622 lon=24.6551426 tag k=addr:city v=Espoo/ tag k=addr:housename v=1337Place/ tag k=addr:housenumber v=4/ tag k=addr:postcode v=02320/ tag k=addr:street v=Espoonlahdenkatu/ tag k=name v=1337place.com (Logistics only)/ tag k=note v=Quality products shipping worldwide starting @5EUR. BeagleBone Black and much more. U can pay with Bitcoin! #BTC #Bitcoin/ tag k=payment:bitcoin v=yes/ tag k=phone v=+358466401678/ tag k=website v=http://www.1337place.com/ /node Whatever BeagleBone Black is, this house is certeinly not called 1337Place... node id=2563617422 visible=true version=1 changeset=19261838 timestamp=2013-12-03T21:42:21Z user=EcoBox uid=1828695 lat=29.4561384 lon=-98.4193203 tag k=moving boxes v=moving boxes/ tag k=name v=EcoBox//node /node What shall I say. The changeset comment contained something about accepting bitcoin. This is all rather undesirable - people
Re: [Talk-it] Fwd: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam
2013/12/4 Cristian Consonni kikkocrist...@gmail.com Dato che si è parlato di bitcoin e di Coinmap anche su questa lista, segnalo questo thread nella lista internazionale. Si parla di alcuni negozi che hanno una sede legale ma non un vero e proprio negozio fisico, ma solo on-line. segnalo un tag office=political_party per l'ufficio di un partito politico. Penso che potrebbe interessare nel contesto italiano (appena scoperto per caso il tag, mi sono sempre chiesto come inserirli). ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
Re: [Talk-it] Fwd: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam
Niente da eccepire: sono perfettamente d'accordo con Frederik. Nei mesi scorsi ho cercato di tenere pulito il più possibile il database, facendo non so quante centinaia di correzioni, ma ultimamente, un po' per mancanza di tempo, un po' perché i nuovi inserimenti sono una quantità abnorme, non riesco proprio a starci dietro. Mi limito a tenere d'occhio l'Italia, ma anche qui tra un po' non ce la farò più. La cosa che più mi dà fastidio è vedere usato impropriamente la chiave note. Perché cavolo usano quella invece di description, il cui valore tra l'altro viene mostrato da CoinMap??? Quelle sono le mie correzioni più frequenti. Ogni aiuto è ben accetto! Carlo ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
Re: [Talk-it] Fwd: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam
la stragrande maggiorana dei nodi del genere sono creati da utenti registrati ad hoc per quell'inserimento. io direi che potrebbe essere comodo listare tutti i nodi creati da utenti con una singola modifica e magari tra questi filtrare solo gli elementi con nomi troppo lunghi o tag note presenteuna cosa del genere in uno strumento come il Quality Assurance Tools script permetterebbe di verificare centinaia di elementi in poco tempo...bisongnerebbe trovare un meccanismo per evitare che i controllori non siano anche i controllati ;) - Ciao, Aury -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Fwd-OSM-talk-Bitcoin-Spam-tp5788483p5788520.html Sent from the Italy General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
Re: [Talk-it] Fwd: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam
2013/12/4 Carlo Stemberger carlo.stember...@gmail.com Niente da eccepire: sono perfettamente d'accordo con Frederik. per me alcuni non erano proprio spam, solo inseriti incompletamente. Se si trova un ufficio lì anche se non è un negozio comunque va bene inserirlo. Per me spam sono solo gli oggetti senza alcun riferimento al luogo (posizione casuale e website per esempio). Invece se diventasse moda per chi opera un esercizio commerciale di inserirlo in OSM (potenzialmente anche con un indirizzo preciso) abbiamo vinto :) ciao, Martin ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
[OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam
Hi, we're seeing a rising number of new ways and nodes which seem to be added by people who create an account for just one purpose, namely adding a business to the map. This could be great - if every business were to add themselves to the map, we'd have a nice collection of POIs. However, in the case at hand, it seems that the interest is not to improve OSM but instead we're just a vehicle for people to show up on the coinmap, a business directory for bitcoin-accepting businesses. It seems that a name and payment:bitcoin=yes is sufficient for that site, with an optional advertising slug in the note tag. But for us, not so much. First of all because advertising has no room in OSM; second because many of these businesses seem to be not really on the ground (but just a mail-order place that wants to have some marker somewhere), third because they often don't contain even minimal information that would make them useful to us. I've collected these objects created in the past couple of days here http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/bitcoin.osc A few examples: node id=252007 version=1 timestamp=2013-11-04T17:56:44Z uid=1795331 user=The Tobacco Seed Company changeset=18716456 lat=51.5442768 lon=0.7236584 tag k=name v=The Tobacco Seed Company/ tag k=payment:bitcoin v=yes/ tag k=website v=http://www.tobaccoseed.co.uk/ /node This is blatant advertising for a web site. It doesn't even say what kind of shop this is supposed to be. node id=2523904649 version=1 timestamp=2013-11-08T04:46:05Z uid=1798995 user=mkondratov changeset=18776505 lat=41.4183069 lon=-81.694649 tag k=name v=Noosphere Ltd, Computer Repair/ tag k=note v=Computer Repair Services/ tag k=payment:bitcoin v=yes/ tag k=phone v=1-216-459-1994/ tag k=website v=http://www.noospherecomputers.com/ /node This, too, is little more than a name on our map. We don't usually include the field of business in the name - this should have been expressed through a proper shop tag. node id=2526590372 version=1 timestamp=2013-11-10T15:46:58Z uid=1801179 user=79s VOF changeset=18818705 lat=52.372218 lon=4.8653634 tag k=name v=79s VOF/ tag k=payment:bitcoin v=yes/ tag k=website v=https://store.79s.co/ /node Spam. node id=2537387222 version=1 timestamp=2013-11-18T01:07:54Z uid=1809524 user=webhostpl changeset=18964238 lat=50.0727563 lon=19.8938861 tag k=domeny v=/ tag k=hosting v=/ tag k=name v=Webhost.pl/ tag k=payment:bitcoin v=yes/ tag k=strony internetowe v=/ tag k=website v=http://www.webhost.pl/ /node Broken tagging (quite frequent). node id=2540057545 version=1 timestamp=2013-11-19T18:09:14Z uid=1651798 user=oldenburg69 changeset=18998877 lat=36.2026532 lon=-115.0597195 tag k=addr:city v=Las Vegas/ tag k=addr:housenumber v=5216/ tag k=addr:postcode v=89156/ tag k=addr:street v=Glendale Ave./ tag k=name v=Hannig Fab Works/ tag k=note v=Hannig Fab Works LLC is a custom metal fabrication shop specializing in creating high quality metal fixtures, custom fabrication and metal art to customers in the Southern Nevada and abroad via the internet./ tag k=payment:bitcoin v=yes/ tag k=website v=http://www.hannigfabworks.com// /node Tagging is ok as far as the address node is concerned, but without a shop tag the rest is kind of useless, and the note tag is not for your marketing tagline. node id=2548748273 version=1 timestamp=2013-11-24T14:38:32Z uid=1817212 user=l337 PLace changeset=19091714 lat=60.1491622 lon=24.6551426 tag k=addr:city v=Espoo/ tag k=addr:housename v=1337Place/ tag k=addr:housenumber v=4/ tag k=addr:postcode v=02320/ tag k=addr:street v=Espoonlahdenkatu/ tag k=name v=1337place.com (Logistics only)/ tag k=note v=Quality products shipping worldwide starting @5EUR. BeagleBone Black and much more. U can pay with Bitcoin! #BTC #Bitcoin/ tag k=payment:bitcoin v=yes/ tag k=phone v=+358466401678/ tag k=website v=http://www.1337place.com/ /node Whatever BeagleBone Black is, this house is certeinly not called 1337Place... node id=2563617422 visible=true version=1 changeset=19261838 timestamp=2013-12-03T21:42:21Z user=EcoBox uid=1828695 lat=29.4561384 lon=-98.4193203 tag k=moving boxes v=moving boxes/ tag k=name v=EcoBox//node /node What shall I say. The changeset comment contained something about accepting bitcoin. This is all rather undesirable - people adding their business to OSM would be great, but advertising isn't, and we'd prefer if they actually used tagging that is used in OSM, rather than simply rushing in a name tag and a location because that's enough to get listed on some third party web site. I delete the ones I encounter when they're outright spam but I'm shying away from suggesting some kind of automated cleaning job because I'm not clear on what the minimum
Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam
Frederik Ramm wrote: I delete the ones I encounter when they're outright spam but I'm shying away from suggesting some kind of automated cleaning job because I'm not clear on what the minimum tagging should be on any node. We don't currently have any such rules but seeing people dumping things into our database that we can't use just so they're shown on coinmap seems a bit strange. A request to 'coinmap' that any information added here must include the type of premise, address and postcode? Otherwise they will be deleted as having no physical existence? And if they don't oblige then block the bitcoin tag ;) -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam
Hi, This is a good problem to have. The http://coinmap.org/ web site has a video on how to had POI to OSM. We should ask them to update the video. Thanks Jason. On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 5:10 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, we're seeing a rising number of new ways and nodes which seem to be added by people who create an account for just one purpose, namely adding a business to the map. This could be great - if every business were to add themselves to the map, we'd have a nice collection of POIs. However, in the case at hand, it seems that the interest is not to improve OSM but instead we're just a vehicle for people to show up on the coinmap, a business directory for bitcoin-accepting businesses. It seems that a name and payment:bitcoin=yes is sufficient for that site, with an optional advertising slug in the note tag. But for us, not so much. First of all because advertising has no room in OSM; second because many of these businesses seem to be not really on the ground (but just a mail-order place that wants to have some marker somewhere), third because they often don't contain even minimal information that would make them useful to us. I've collected these objects created in the past couple of days here http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/bitcoin.osc A few examples: node id=252007 version=1 timestamp=2013-11-04T17:56:44Z uid=1795331 user=The Tobacco Seed Company changeset=18716456 lat=51.5442768 lon=0.7236584 tag k=name v=The Tobacco Seed Company/ tag k=payment:bitcoin v=yes/ tag k=website v=http://www.tobaccoseed.co.uk/ /node This is blatant advertising for a web site. It doesn't even say what kind of shop this is supposed to be. node id=2523904649 version=1 timestamp=2013-11-08T04:46:05Z uid=1798995 user=mkondratov changeset=18776505 lat=41.4183069 lon=-81.694649 tag k=name v=Noosphere Ltd, Computer Repair/ tag k=note v=Computer Repair Services/ tag k=payment:bitcoin v=yes/ tag k=phone v=1-216-459-1994/ tag k=website v=http://www.noospherecomputers.com/ /node This, too, is little more than a name on our map. We don't usually include the field of business in the name - this should have been expressed through a proper shop tag. node id=2526590372 version=1 timestamp=2013-11-10T15:46:58Z uid=1801179 user=79s VOF changeset=18818705 lat=52.372218 lon=4.8653634 tag k=name v=79s VOF/ tag k=payment:bitcoin v=yes/ tag k=website v=https://store.79s.co/ /node Spam. node id=2537387222 version=1 timestamp=2013-11-18T01:07:54Z uid=1809524 user=webhostpl changeset=18964238 lat=50.0727563 lon=19.8938861 tag k=domeny v=/ tag k=hosting v=/ tag k=name v=Webhost.pl/ tag k=payment:bitcoin v=yes/ tag k=strony internetowe v=/ tag k=website v=http://www.webhost.pl/ /node Broken tagging (quite frequent). node id=2540057545 version=1 timestamp=2013-11-19T18:09:14Z uid=1651798 user=oldenburg69 changeset=18998877 lat=36.2026532 lon=-115.0597195 tag k=addr:city v=Las Vegas/ tag k=addr:housenumber v=5216/ tag k=addr:postcode v=89156/ tag k=addr:street v=Glendale Ave./ tag k=name v=Hannig Fab Works/ tag k=note v=Hannig Fab Works LLC is a custom metal fabrication shop specializing in creating high quality metal fixtures, custom fabrication and metal art to customers in the Southern Nevada and abroad via the internet./ tag k=payment:bitcoin v=yes/ tag k=website v=http://www.hannigfabworks.com// /node Tagging is ok as far as the address node is concerned, but without a shop tag the rest is kind of useless, and the note tag is not for your marketing tagline. node id=2548748273 version=1 timestamp=2013-11-24T14:38:32Z uid=1817212 user=l337 PLace changeset=19091714 lat=60.1491622 lon=24.6551426 tag k=addr:city v=Espoo/ tag k=addr:housename v=1337Place/ tag k=addr:housenumber v=4/ tag k=addr:postcode v=02320/ tag k=addr:street v=Espoonlahdenkatu/ tag k=name v=1337place.com (Logistics only)/ tag k=note v=Quality products shipping worldwide starting @5EUR. BeagleBone Black and much more. U can pay with Bitcoin! #BTC #Bitcoin/ tag k=payment:bitcoin v=yes/ tag k=phone v=+358466401678/ tag k=website v=http://www.1337place.com/ /node Whatever BeagleBone Black is, this house is certeinly not called 1337Place... node id=2563617422 visible=true version=1 changeset=19261838 timestamp=2013-12-03T21:42:21Z user=EcoBox uid=1828695 lat=29.4561384 lon=-98.4193203 tag k=moving boxes v=moving boxes/ tag k=name v=EcoBox//node /node What shall I say. The changeset comment contained something about accepting bitcoin. This is all rather undesirable - people adding their business to OSM would be great, but advertising isn't, and we'd prefer if
Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam
From: Frederik Ramm [mailto:frede...@remote.org] Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 2:11 PM To: Talk Openstreetmap Subject: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam Hi, we're seeing a rising number of new ways and nodes which seem to be added by people who create an account for just one purpose, namely adding a business to the map. This could be great - if every business were to add themselves to the map, we'd have a nice collection of POIs. However, in the case at hand, it seems that the interest is not to improve OSM but instead we're just a vehicle for people to show up on the coinmap, a business directory for bitcoin-accepting businesses. It seems that a name and payment:bitcoin=yes is sufficient for that site, with an optional advertising slug in the note tag. But for us, not so much. First of all because advertising has no room in OSM; second because many of these businesses seem to be not really on the ground (but just a mail-order place that wants to have some marker somewhere), third because they often don't contain even minimal information that would make them useful to us. Thanks to Frederik for putting the required time together to document what myself and others have been seeing, primarily from bitcoin edits. http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1G1 shows objects like this via overpass. Some of the places I've been seeing exist solely as a service within a private post office, where they may not even have a physical mailbox but instead have their mail scanned and emailed. OSM is great for a shop that has a physical presence (bricks and mortar) but we're not a general-purpose directory of online-only entities. This is inherent in the geo part of geodata. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam
Hi, I put on a comment on the u-tube video asking them to add instructions on how to enter addresses. The coinmap website uses OSM's other tags like shop/sport/etc for different icons. They are not encouraging tagless POI's. I suspect that the person running the coinmap website does not want entities on the map that don't have any geographics significance either. There is nothing more going on here other than normal new user stuff combined with a renderer that is prioritizing getting bitcoins tags into OSM. Jason. On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 5:10 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, we're seeing a rising number of new ways and nodes which seem to be added by people who create an account for just one purpose, namely adding a business to the map. This could be great - if every business were to add themselves to the map, we'd have a nice collection of POIs. However, in the case at hand, it seems that the interest is not to improve OSM but instead we're just a vehicle for people to show up on the coinmap, a business directory for bitcoin-accepting businesses. It seems that a name and payment:bitcoin=yes is sufficient for that site, with an optional advertising slug in the note tag. But for us, not so much. First of all because advertising has no room in OSM; second because many of these businesses seem to be not really on the ground (but just a mail-order place that wants to have some marker somewhere), third because they often don't contain even minimal information that would make them useful to us. I've collected these objects created in the past couple of days here http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/bitcoin.osc A few examples: node id=252007 version=1 timestamp=2013-11-04T17:56:44Z uid=1795331 user=The Tobacco Seed Company changeset=18716456 lat=51.5442768 lon=0.7236584 tag k=name v=The Tobacco Seed Company/ tag k=payment:bitcoin v=yes/ tag k=website v=http://www.tobaccoseed.co.uk/ /node This is blatant advertising for a web site. It doesn't even say what kind of shop this is supposed to be. node id=2523904649 version=1 timestamp=2013-11-08T04:46:05Z uid=1798995 user=mkondratov changeset=18776505 lat=41.4183069 lon=-81.694649 tag k=name v=Noosphere Ltd, Computer Repair/ tag k=note v=Computer Repair Services/ tag k=payment:bitcoin v=yes/ tag k=phone v=1-216-459-1994/ tag k=website v=http://www.noospherecomputers.com/ /node This, too, is little more than a name on our map. We don't usually include the field of business in the name - this should have been expressed through a proper shop tag. node id=2526590372 version=1 timestamp=2013-11-10T15:46:58Z uid=1801179 user=79s VOF changeset=18818705 lat=52.372218 lon=4.8653634 tag k=name v=79s VOF/ tag k=payment:bitcoin v=yes/ tag k=website v=https://store.79s.co/ /node Spam. node id=2537387222 version=1 timestamp=2013-11-18T01:07:54Z uid=1809524 user=webhostpl changeset=18964238 lat=50.0727563 lon=19.8938861 tag k=domeny v=/ tag k=hosting v=/ tag k=name v=Webhost.pl/ tag k=payment:bitcoin v=yes/ tag k=strony internetowe v=/ tag k=website v=http://www.webhost.pl/ /node Broken tagging (quite frequent). node id=2540057545 version=1 timestamp=2013-11-19T18:09:14Z uid=1651798 user=oldenburg69 changeset=18998877 lat=36.2026532 lon=-115.0597195 tag k=addr:city v=Las Vegas/ tag k=addr:housenumber v=5216/ tag k=addr:postcode v=89156/ tag k=addr:street v=Glendale Ave./ tag k=name v=Hannig Fab Works/ tag k=note v=Hannig Fab Works LLC is a custom metal fabrication shop specializing in creating high quality metal fixtures, custom fabrication and metal art to customers in the Southern Nevada and abroad via the internet./ tag k=payment:bitcoin v=yes/ tag k=website v=http://www.hannigfabworks.com// /node Tagging is ok as far as the address node is concerned, but without a shop tag the rest is kind of useless, and the note tag is not for your marketing tagline. node id=2548748273 version=1 timestamp=2013-11-24T14:38:32Z uid=1817212 user=l337 PLace changeset=19091714 lat=60.1491622 lon=24.6551426 tag k=addr:city v=Espoo/ tag k=addr:housename v=1337Place/ tag k=addr:housenumber v=4/ tag k=addr:postcode v=02320/ tag k=addr:street v=Espoonlahdenkatu/ tag k=name v=1337place.com (Logistics only)/ tag k=note v=Quality products shipping worldwide starting @5EUR. BeagleBone Black and much more. U can pay with Bitcoin! #BTC #Bitcoin/ tag k=payment:bitcoin v=yes/ tag k=phone v=+358466401678/ tag k=website v=http://www.1337place.com/ /node Whatever BeagleBone Black is, this house is certeinly not called 1337Place... node id=2563617422 visible=true version=1 changeset=19261838
Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam
On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: However, in the case at hand, it seems that the interest is not to improve OSM but instead we're just a vehicle for people to show up on the coinmap, a business directory for bitcoin-accepting businesses. I don't think we should worry about people's motivations. What's the problem here? That there are business POIs in OSM that are missing tags. It doesn't sound all that different to me from any other data quality problem. Either we fix the missing tags (if possible), or delete them as junk. And if the business in question doesn't deserve a mention in OSM (eg, a mail order place with no shop front), again, just delete it. No? Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam
On 12/03/2013 09:55 PM, Steve Bennett wrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: However, in the case at hand, it seems that the interest is not to improve OSM but instead we're just a vehicle for people to show up on the coinmap, a business directory for bitcoin-accepting businesses. I don't think we should worry about people's motivations. What's the problem here? That there are business POIs in OSM that are missing tags. It doesn't sound all that different to me from any other data quality problem. Either we fix the missing tags (if possible), or delete them as junk. And if the business in question doesn't deserve a mention in OSM (eg, a mail order place with no shop front), again, just delete it. No? Steve There seem to be people already interested in improving the data quality of these new POIs. For example, I noticed this user in my area http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Dafmaster/history -- new as of late last month, with ~100 edits adding addresses, phone numbers, websites, yelp links, and other tags as appropriate. I've seen other users doing quality control too--some new, some with thousands of OSM edits over 5+ years. And many of the nodes seem to be originally contributed by long-time mappers, and well-tagged to begin with. --Andrew ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam
Steve, You're right, in theory, but there's a bunch that Frederik has omitted. First, the coinmap people have not merely been documenting places, but doing whole copying from map to map. They even had a video on how to do it, but that's gone. Secondly, they don't verify the information they add. They are working off lists of places which they simply enter into OSM. Thirdly, the problem with this view on mapping Someone will fix it later is that it shift responsibility downward. OSM is predicated on doing the best you can do at the moment. It may not be perfect, but we've seen a number of import efforts (coinmap included) which use bad practices for finding and placing locations, or using bad tags. Put another way- this is an import that was done without the import process, and if it had gone through the process, we would have judged it technically lacking (and possibly not usable license-wise). - Serge On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 2:55 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: However, in the case at hand, it seems that the interest is not to improve OSM but instead we're just a vehicle for people to show up on the coinmap, a business directory for bitcoin-accepting businesses. I don't think we should worry about people's motivations. What's the problem here? That there are business POIs in OSM that are missing tags. It doesn't sound all that different to me from any other data quality problem. Either we fix the missing tags (if possible), or delete them as junk. And if the business in question doesn't deserve a mention in OSM (eg, a mail order place with no shop front), again, just delete it. No? Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam
So these are not even the shop owners themselves which are spamming us with useless information? Jo 2013/12/4 Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com Steve, You're right, in theory, but there's a bunch that Frederik has omitted. First, the coinmap people have not merely been documenting places, but doing whole copying from map to map. They even had a video on how to do it, but that's gone. Secondly, they don't verify the information they add. They are working off lists of places which they simply enter into OSM. Thirdly, the problem with this view on mapping Someone will fix it later is that it shift responsibility downward. OSM is predicated on doing the best you can do at the moment. It may not be perfect, but we've seen a number of import efforts (coinmap included) which use bad practices for finding and placing locations, or using bad tags. Put another way- this is an import that was done without the import process, and if it had gone through the process, we would have judged it technically lacking (and possibly not usable license-wise). - Serge On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 2:55 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.orgwrote: However, in the case at hand, it seems that the interest is not to improve OSM but instead we're just a vehicle for people to show up on the coinmap, a business directory for bitcoin-accepting businesses. I don't think we should worry about people's motivations. What's the problem here? That there are business POIs in OSM that are missing tags. It doesn't sound all that different to me from any other data quality problem. Either we fix the missing tags (if possible), or delete them as junk. And if the business in question doesn't deserve a mention in OSM (eg, a mail order place with no shop front), again, just delete it. No? Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bitcoin Spam
It depends on which contributors are which. We have a few contributors who are the shop owners and they make a single edit, adding their stores. But we also have people who have taken a list of stores and either: 1. Plugged the store into Google to find the location 2. Plugged the address into Nominatim to find the location The reason I know the first scenario is true is that there was a post about it on Reddit, with the poster putting it on the subreddit r/openstreetmap (which I moderate). I began to investigate the issue, but (frankly) became overwhelmed with the amount of data, and the hostility I received from some (not a majority of) coinmappers. I don't mind if a person comes in, makes an imperfect edit of their own store and then leaves, but working off a list is an import, and what they did was to circumvent the import process. - Serge ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
