Re: [OSM-talk] Revival: Multilingual Country-List
In Switzerland we tried for a substantial amount of time to avoid using the name tag on the Swiss country node (since any single value would be wrong). Unluckily we could not stop our colleagues from a larger country in the north wanting to fiddle around with it and last year we decided to give in and set it to a multi-lingual value. Besides that we do have have true bilingual municipalities for example Bienne were we have resorted to the same solution (name = Biel/Bienne). Assuming that there is single correct language there, or basing a language selection on geographic regions would clearly be incorrect. Simon ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Revival: Multilingual Country-List
Frank Steggink stegg...@steggink.org wrote: However, I have the impression that a couple of countries is missing. For example, Guernsey is included, but Jersey is not. Shouldn't we stick to a list like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states Most of it is already there. Or would this be a too sensitive subject? Hi Frank, the suggestions for the translations come from the interlanguage links which you can find on the left side of every Wikipedia article. Thus Peters tool can only work for these 285 languages-versions of Wikipedia which support that interlanguage links. Further I guess Wikipedia has a lot more language specialists compared to OSM because of the related articles. This helps us a lot. We do not have to do the work twice that has been done by Wikipedia during the last 11 years. The reason why we have to confirm is that we do not want unsupported data in OSM. There are already too much imports nobody cares about and noones eyes have seen ever. And thus nobody knows whether this stuff is correct or not. As a second disadvantage only a small amount of users joins OSM in countries with imported data. Thus nobody cares there. Thus more and more mappers come to the conclusion that unsupported imports are not really helpful for the project. That means: If nobody cares about translations we do not want them. The possibly complete translations of all country-names should be a first starter when the Multilinguale Map of OSM comes online. Test it here: http://mlm.jochentopf.com/ Thus at least one object per country - its name - will be found at its best translated at least in the Wikipedia languages. Of course everybody can add the names for the non included languages and countries. But a suggestion taken from Wikipedia is simply not possible. In order to come back to your initial question you have to answer a difficult counterquestion: Make a list (No 1) of all 285 languages from these list http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias with support of interlanguage-links (who knows?). Make a list (No 2) of all official languages of all these states: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states Which language from list No 1 is not included in list No 2? If you find one, then it could theoreticly added to the existing translation list. The question is, if you will find a worthwhile amount of translations confirmated by a more than tiny community in the local Wikipedia. Incidentally, the list of Peter does not support local dialect Wikipedia-languages. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Revival: Multilingual Country-List
On Sat, 2013-02-23 at 15:50 +0100, Frank Steggink wrote: On 20-2-2013 10:47, Peter Körner wrote: Hi I revived the Multilingual Country-List tool. Now with Overpass-API as source, it's a useful tool again. If you find the time, head over to http://toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/ and look for your favorite language. If you find a low completeness (100%), check out the list of the country names. If they are translated well, click the mark ok link and your progress rises. If the translation is bad, use the josm link to update load up the respective node and add a name:XX tag with the correct translation. Less then 10 minutes later, the update should arrive in the list and you can mark the now fixed translation as OK. Have fun! Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk Hi Peter, Great idea :) However, I have the impression that a couple of countries is missing. For example, Guernsey is included, but Jersey is not. Shouldn't we stick to a list like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states Most of it is already there. Or would this be a too sensitive subject? Jersey and Guernsey are Crown Dependencies, they are not sovereign states. Phil (trigpoint) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Revival: Multilingual Country-List
On 20 February 2013 11:47, Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de wrote: Hi I revived the Multilingual Country-List tool. Now with Overpass-API as source, it's a useful tool again. If you find the time, head over to http://toolserver.org/~**mazder/multilingual-country-**list/http://toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/ and look for your favorite language. If you find a low completeness (100%), check out the list of the country names. If they are translated well, click the mark ok link and your progress rises. I noticed that in some cases lines without translation were marked as OK. I would suggest to add a safeguard to this, e.g. when respective name:xx is absent, it is not possible to mark it as OK. Eugene ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Revival: Multilingual Country-List
2013/2/23 Tom Taylor tom.taylor.s...@gmail.com: In fact, here in Ottawa, Canada, we do name= for the English and then name:fr= for the French version, for all streets. Across the river in Gatineau, Quebec, the practice is to do name=a name in French and not bother with the English. I have no idea if software trying to process our region is aware of the difference. you might think of adding name:fr and name:en to all objects (where reasonable / where a name exists in both languages) and add additional (for downwards compatibility) a name-tag in the locally used language. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Revival: Multilingual Country-List
On 20-2-2013 10:47, Peter Körner wrote: Hi I revived the Multilingual Country-List tool. Now with Overpass-API as source, it's a useful tool again. If you find the time, head over to http://toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/ and look for your favorite language. If you find a low completeness (100%), check out the list of the country names. If they are translated well, click the mark ok link and your progress rises. If the translation is bad, use the josm link to update load up the respective node and add a name:XX tag with the correct translation. Less then 10 minutes later, the update should arrive in the list and you can mark the now fixed translation as OK. Have fun! Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk Hi Peter, Great idea :) However, I have the impression that a couple of countries is missing. For example, Guernsey is included, but Jersey is not. Shouldn't we stick to a list like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states Most of it is already there. Or would this be a too sensitive subject? Frank ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Revival: Multilingual Country-List
On 22 February 2013 15:25, Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de wrote: If you enforce - by an editing bot or by raising error messages - For the record, I'm not suggesting using a bot. I just know that it's technically not too hard and that if any editing can be automated, somebody will try to at some stage. I certainly won't be encouraging it however. I'm also shying away from the term enforce which is too strong. The JOSM validator has multiple severity levels; I think that the check we are talking about should be a notice. Perhaps a warning but certainly not an error. at least one localized name to be equal to the name attribute, mappers will either be offended and leave the project or they will find a solution, imagine name:communityagreement=Bruxelles - Brussel - just to make sure the name the community want's to see in the name tag and rendered on the most prominent maps. Clearly we don't want that. But I was suggesting to improve the heuristic to deal with this usecase. Show a warning if : * There is a name:XX but no name or * There is at least one name:XX and a name and - The name doesn't match any name:XX and - The name looks like it can be split (with a dash, a slash, a paren, etc) and one of the subname doesn't match any name:XX Hopefully that heuristic would work with all naming conventions that we have in the db. Is there another naming convention that I'm unaware of and that wouldn't work with this algorythm ? I assume that if a weird naming convention is widespread, the algorythm will be fixed quickly. If the algorythm can be relatively free of false-positives, I think it should be implemented. It's just a handy hint to help mappers remember an agreed-uppon convention. It's not enforcing a tagging scheme, as that would be a silly thing to attempt in OSM. Concerning the agreed-uppon in my previous sentence, I still think the alternate proposal of defining a default language per region is (on top of not being implemented by any current renderer AFAIK) not a workable solution. Nice to have a a fallback from a renderer's point of view, but not something that mappers should depend on. No disagreement here, I hope ? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Revival: Multilingual Country-List
On 23/02/2013 19:28, moltonel 3x Combo wrote: On 22 February 2013 15:25, Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de wrote: at least one localized name to be equal to the name attribute, mappers will either be offended and leave the project or they will find a solution, imagine name:communityagreement=Bruxelles - Brussel - just to make sure the name the community want's to see in the name tag and rendered on the most prominent maps. Clearly we don't want that. But I was suggesting to improve the heuristic to deal with this usecase. Show a warning if : * There is a name:XX but no name or * There is at least one name:XX and a name and - The name doesn't match any name:XX and - The name looks like it can be split (with a dash, a slash, a paren, etc) and one of the subname doesn't match any name:XX Keep Right can do some of this, with the Language unknown warning. http://keepright.ipax.at/ It will warn if there is at least one name:XX tag, and the name tag doesn't match any of them. Note this is just a warning, it is not necessarily an error. I don't think it handles multiple names in the name tag, separated by dashes/slashes etc, these will still be highlighted with a warning. I'm sure suggested improvements or patches would be welcome. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Revival: Multilingual Country-List
On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 22:22:52 moltonel 3x Combo wrote: On 22 February 2013 09:51, Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de wrote: Am 21.02.2013 17:47, schrieb moltonel 3x Combo: [...] Besides, I actually think that adding the redundant name:XX tag is actually simpler than modifying the code of many renderers to take something completely new into account. On the other hand, it should be very easy to check that if a place has at least one name:xx tag, it should also have one that matches the name tag either inside the editor or via a bot. Not sure about that. Up to know (as far as I know) some areas of the world decided to use a combination of two languages or name transcriptions in the name tag, like Japan [1] or Brussels [2]. A bot would contradict a working local community decision here, why I would oppose to automatically enforce that by a bot or to show that as en error by default. You're right, that's a false-positive right there. It could be fixed by improving the heuristic, but I'm not sure it's worth the trouble. JOSM users are used to ignore some types of validator warnings, and I dare hope that any bot admin wouldn't let it run without carefull checking. This might change as soon as the most prominent/important osm maps like our mapnik rendering support setting the language like in Jochens Multilingual Map project, but up to then it's IMHO a bad idea to enforce tag wars in multilanguage areas due to bugs raised by some bot that tries to enforce a name:xx being equal to name. Looking forward to that, but it'll probably be a while before we have it ? But even if all renderers become multilingual, as long as there is a plain name tag, there'll be arguments about which language to put in it. I have been thinking about this for a long time. I mostly map in Korea, where we have adopted the format name=Korean (English) together with the separate parts in name:ko=* and name:en=*. In some places there are official signs with Chinese, Japanese and other languages too, which can be added in name:xx=*. Sometimes I think having multiple languages in name=* is a Good Thing, sometimes not. And if I was going to recommend something I think it has to have a simple and obvious rule. I now think it *is* a Good Thing, and here's why. I recently travelled to Laos. Laos has its own language (Lao), but for a time it was a French protectorate, and these days English is not uncommon. Many of the road signs in the capital, Vientiene, are written in Lao script and French. In another town I visited, Luang Prabang, they are written in Lao and English. Similarly, businesses are often signed in Lao and French or English. From the point of view of a visitor, it would be very useful to me if OSM's Mapnik map was labelled with whatever is printed on the sign. Then, as I walk around, I can read the signs and see the same thing on my map. Even if I don't speak the language I can match the symbols. As a mapper, I can do this by setting name=* to whatever is on the sign (which may be Lao only, or Lao and another language). I can also tag name:lo and name:fr or name:en with the separate parts of the name taken from the sign. So, if I had to suggest an easy-to-follow set of rules for multilingual tagging I'd suggest the following: 1: name=* Whatever is written on the sign (with several languages if present) 2: name:xx=*Whatever is written on the sign in a single language. 3: name:xx=*can be added for any language even if it's not on the sign. I'd also add that it's okay to have redundant tags, i.e. in England the names are generally in English only, so name=* == name:en=*, but that it's also okay to omit this, i.e. renderer requests name:en=*, but it's not available, so name=* is returned. In Laos, I picked up a Japanese version of the Vientiene tourist map. Everything was labelled in katakana (a phonetic Japanese script). I wish we could just import it... Best wishes, Andrew PS I just wanted to add that I am using OSM exclusively now for all my local tourist activities. I use a guide book (or WikiVoyage) to tell me what's fun and interesting to do, and OSM to help me find it. If OSM is not good enough then I add more detail when I get there. Actually, I'd like to thank the Munich contributors for helping me find things in the city and get around very easily last time I was there. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Revival: Multilingual Country-List
Am 21.02.2013 13:01, schrieb Hans Schmidt: Am 21.02.2013 12:36, schrieb Peter Wendorff: Well... if there's no localized name tag, then you may omit the name:xx tag for that language, as there's no alternative. On the other hand name:de might be useful even then, as it's possible to translate programmatically if the software knows about the language. The German suffixes -straße, -weg, -platz could be automatically transcoded to street, way and square, the afaik swedish -gatan is street again, väg is way and so on. But if you try to translate something to another language this way where you don't know the source language, it's much more difficult. Why would you want to translate the street names? Do you want to translate Paris' “Avenue des Champs-Élysées” to “Allee der Champs-Élysées”? Nobody would know what it is anymore. Also, nobody wants to translate a “Lindenallee” in some minor german town to “Linden avenue”. Also, automatic translation would be error prone. For complete names you may be right, but for Natural Language Generation used in tools based on osm data parts of names might be useful to translate. For the Lindenallee this might translate to Go down the alley... where alley might not be a given classification by tags, but due to the name only. So a recommendation might be to - always tag name - if you translate name into different languages, always add name:originalLanguageCode with the same content - if you want, add that even if you don't translate it to different languages. Yes, that's redundant - but it's easy to cut out for software (cut out every language attribute that equals the plain name), if wanted; and it's less error prone than a tag like language=de or like the lists of default language areas you propose above. Sure: These list are helpful for all cases where only name is given, and that's a necessity for great software dealing with that, but that's the way defaults in OSM work: there should be a few defaults for mappers, where they should decide to not add a tag, but more defaults for data consumers, who could/should be able to have a best guess where data is missing. You say that there should be few defaults for mappers. But what you propose is exactly the opposite: You'd have a default, meaning that you would need to create a name:originallanguage even if there is a name present. I would bet that nobody does this. And if you don’t do it like that, chaos will occur if you decide to display the name. Wait... I agree: even in the long term the majority of objects for sure will not have a name:originallanguage in addition to the only plain name tag. This is part of the incompleteness we have everywhere in osm. I disagree, that this would lead to chaos for itself. Imagine a text based application that could be read aloud by software. To do that properly names should be spoken with the pronunciation of the language they are from. Let's consider a screenreader for browsers and a browser based application as an example. The output of Dies ist der Times Square in New York (this is the Times Square in New York) is simple to do, but a screen reader based only on German as a language would speak it out roughly like (not sure if I get it comparable for English speakers here): Dees ist der Teames Square in Nu Johk, because nobody could know that Times Square and New York are names based on the English language. In a website, additional markup could ideally solve that (given that the screenreader supports english language as well in the users setup): p lang=deDies ist der span lang=enTimes Square/span in span lang=enNew York/span/p. But to generate markup like this the software has to know about the language. Sure: this may be done by approximation based on the area in the world, and yes, developers have to use something like that for the usual case where the languages is still unknown, but in the text-to-speech area this would produce many wrong results by accident. In contrast, if you do it based on region, it would simplify things much more: 1. You take the nodes/relation for Canada, add language=en. 2. You take the nodes/relation for Québec: language=fr Then everybody would just continue using name=British Columbia and name=Montréal, and no problem. The multilingual renderer would then show, in case the user wants to see French names, name=Montréal and name:fr=Colombie-Britannique. If the user is English, he would show name:en=Montreal and name:British Columbia. I completely agree, as long as it's only about displaying. I completely agree that this is a valid fallback, but as I showed above that is not able to solve all problems. Even for rendering I'm not sure if that's really an optimal solution for languages written right-to-left or downwards. Here you have to know at least this characteristics of the language to decide about label sizes and placements - not sure if that's really given in the unicode characters
Re: [OSM-talk] Revival: Multilingual Country-List
Am 21.02.2013 17:47, schrieb moltonel 3x Combo: [...] Besides, I actually think that adding the redundant name:XX tag is actually simpler than modifying the code of many renderers to take something completely new into account. On the other hand, it should be very easy to check that if a place has at least one name:xx tag, it should also have one that matches the name tag either inside the editor or via a bot. Not sure about that. Up to know (as far as I know) some areas of the world decided to use a combination of two languages or name transcriptions in the name tag, like Japan [1] or Brussels [2]. A bot would contradict a working local community decision here, why I would oppose to automatically enforce that by a bot or to show that as en error by default. This might change as soon as the most prominent/important osm maps like our mapnik rendering support setting the language like in Jochens Multilingual Map project, but up to then it's IMHO a bad idea to enforce tag wars in multilanguage areas due to bugs raised by some bot that tries to enforce a name:xx being equal to name. regards Peter [1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=36.009lon=139.057zoom=10layers=M [2] http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=50.84654lon=4.351686zoom=18layers=M ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Revival: Multilingual Country-List
Am 21.02.2013 19:50, schrieb Miloš Komarčević: +1 This is why we (well, all credit goes to user mpele) started with our own transliteration plugin (Serbian Cyrillic - Serbian Latin) [1], based on the tag editor plugin: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Plugins/TagEditor It could be a nice idea to extend this to a more general purpose multilingual editor, with e.g. copy source lang to dest lang option, more transliteration filters, etc. M [1]http://svn.mpele.iz.rs/SerbianTransliterator/ This would be really great. Actually, if you are already doing something like this, your plugin would be the best starting point, I guess. I guess all languages with non-latin script would need a similar approach like Serbia (Actually, every language: A russian person would prefers to read American cities in Cyrillic): A fast method to translate a huge number of tags without wasting any time with selecting nodes, opening dialog windows, closing them etc. A tabular approach is really the only feasible method, in my opinion. I don’t know if the Serbian transliteration can be done automatically, but in other languages, a manual approach is often necessary. Still, the plugin could then be amended by some automatic plugins (Japanese-reading, Cyrillic-Latin etc). My imagination of this plugin is the following: 1. Well, as my screenshot described it 2. You can select certain groups, and then only they will be displayed: all cities, all towns, all streets etc. This is easier because it is likely that you don’t want to translate _everything_ at once, but rather in a systematic way. 3. You can select a node in the table if you don’t know what it is, and then return to the map where it is highlighted. And, as I said, easy integration of the Overpass API in JOSM, so that you can download a group of nodes for an entire country, without having to download the entire country. Well, this can be done in the web browser right now, but it would be more user friendly in JOSM. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Revival: Multilingual Country-List
Am 21.02.2013 11:43, schrieb moltonel 3x Combo: Consider this usecase : * I prefer to read French but can also read English, so I set may language priority to name:fr - name:en - name. * I now take a look at a country like Central African Republic whose local name is a French one. * If the name:fr tag is present I get to see the French name. * If the name:fr is removed, I get to see the English name, which is acceptable but suboptimal. So instead of saying that one may delete the name:xx tag if it is identical to the name tag (to reduce bloat, presumably), the multilingual-country-list should encourage to add the name:xx tag in all cases. Yes, I see that problem. I removed the offending paragraph and the orange coloring. Redundancy is not bad in this case. Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Revival: Multilingual Country-List
On 22 February 2013 09:42, Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de wrote: So: - Yes: Software developers should support guessing the natural languages (where that's necessary) - No: Mappers should NOT delete localized name tags even if these are equal to the local one out of the assumption of redundancy. - No: Mappers should NOT be told to never add localized tags where only one single name tag exists. Amen to that. I'd even encourage mappers to add the identical name:XX if any name:YY is present, but I know it's a tougher sell. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Revival: Multilingual Country-List
On 22 February 2013 09:51, Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de wrote: Am 21.02.2013 17:47, schrieb moltonel 3x Combo: [...] Besides, I actually think that adding the redundant name:XX tag is actually simpler than modifying the code of many renderers to take something completely new into account. On the other hand, it should be very easy to check that if a place has at least one name:xx tag, it should also have one that matches the name tag either inside the editor or via a bot. Not sure about that. Up to know (as far as I know) some areas of the world decided to use a combination of two languages or name transcriptions in the name tag, like Japan [1] or Brussels [2]. A bot would contradict a working local community decision here, why I would oppose to automatically enforce that by a bot or to show that as en error by default. You're right, that's a false-positive right there. It could be fixed by improving the heuristic, but I'm not sure it's worth the trouble. JOSM users are used to ignore some types of validator warnings, and I dare hope that any bot admin wouldn't let it run without carefull checking. This might change as soon as the most prominent/important osm maps like our mapnik rendering support setting the language like in Jochens Multilingual Map project, but up to then it's IMHO a bad idea to enforce tag wars in multilanguage areas due to bugs raised by some bot that tries to enforce a name:xx being equal to name. Looking forward to that, but it'll probably be a while before we have it ? But even if all renderers become multilingual, as long as there is a plain name tag, there'll be arguments about which language to put in it. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Revival: Multilingual Country-List
Am 22.02.2013 14:22, schrieb moltonel 3x Combo: On 22 February 2013 09:51, Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de wrote: Am 21.02.2013 17:47, schrieb moltonel 3x Combo: [...] Besides, I actually think that adding the redundant name:XX tag is actually simpler than modifying the code of many renderers to take something completely new into account. On the other hand, it should be very easy to check that if a place has at least one name:xx tag, it should also have one that matches the name tag either inside the editor or via a bot. Not sure about that. Up to know (as far as I know) some areas of the world decided to use a combination of two languages or name transcriptions in the name tag, like Japan [1] or Brussels [2]. A bot would contradict a working local community decision here, why I would oppose to automatically enforce that by a bot or to show that as en error by default. You're right, that's a false-positive right there. It could be fixed by improving the heuristic, but I'm not sure it's worth the trouble. improving by enforcing these local agreements? well... that's an ugly solution, too IMHO. It would put logics about local community agreements into global code... JOSM users are used to ignore some types of validator warnings, and I dare hope that any bot admin wouldn't let it run without carefull checking. Right, but why changing automatically, if you could point the local mappers to these problems easy by hints. This might change as soon as the most prominent/important osm maps like our mapnik rendering support setting the language like in Jochens Multilingual Map project, but up to then it's IMHO a bad idea to enforce tag wars in multilanguage areas due to bugs raised by some bot that tries to enforce a name:xx being equal to name. Looking forward to that, but it'll probably be a while before we have it ? But even if all renderers become multilingual, as long as there is a plain name tag, there'll be arguments about which language to put in it. yes. That's why I guess there will be these combined-names in some areas for the next years if not forever, as long as the main renderers render name as the main fallback. If you enforce - by an editing bot or by raising error messages - at least one localized name to be equal to the name attribute, mappers will either be offended and leave the project or they will find a solution, imagine name:communityagreement=Bruxelles - Brussel - just to make sure the name the community want's to see in the name tag and rendered on the most prominent maps. We already have mappers like this, naming POIs by their category because then even that label would be rendered, if an icon is missing; tagging golf course bunker as beach because that's shown on mapnik, which surface=sand is not (or was not some time ago). regards Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Revival: Multilingual Country-List
In fact, here in Ottawa, Canada, we do name= for the English and then name:fr= for the French version, for all streets. Across the river in Gatineau, Quebec, the practice is to do name=a name in French and not bother with the English. I have no idea if software trying to process our region is aware of the difference. On 21/02/2013 7:01 AM, Hans Schmidt wrote: Am 21.02.2013 12:36, schrieb Peter Wendorff: Well... if there's no localized name tag, then you may omit the name:xx tag for that language, as there's no alternative. On the other hand name:de might be useful even then, as it's possible to translate programmatically if the software knows about the language. The German suffixes -straße, -weg, -platz could be automatically transcoded to street, way and square, the afaik swedish -gatan is street again, väg is way and so on. But if you try to translate something to another language this way where you don't know the source language, it's much more difficult. Why would you want to translate the street names? Do you want to translate Paris' “Avenue des Champs-Élysées” to “Allee der Champs-Élysées”? Nobody would know what it is anymore. Also, nobody wants to translate a “Lindenallee” in some minor german town to “Linden avenue”. Also, automatic translation would be error prone. So a recommendation might be to - always tag name - if you translate name into different languages, always add name:originalLanguageCode with the same content - if you want, add that even if you don't translate it to different languages. Yes, that's redundant - but it's easy to cut out for software (cut out every language attribute that equals the plain name), if wanted; and it's less error prone than a tag like language=de or like the lists of default language areas you propose above. Sure: These list are helpful for all cases where only name is given, and that's a necessity for great software dealing with that, but that's the way defaults in OSM work: there should be a few defaults for mappers, where they should decide to not add a tag, but more defaults for data consumers, who could/should be able to have a best guess where data is missing. You say that there should be few defaults for mappers. But what you propose is exactly the opposite: You'd have a default, meaning that you would need to create a name:originallanguage even if there is a name present. I would bet that nobody does this. And if you don’t do it like that, chaos will occur if you decide to display the name. In contrast, if you do it based on region, it would simplify things much more: 1. You take the nodes/relation for Canada, add language=en. 2. You take the nodes/relation for Québec: language=fr Then everybody would just continue using name=British Columbia and name=Montréal, and no problem. The multilingual renderer would then show, in case the user wants to see French names, name=Montréal and name:fr=Colombie-Britannique. If the user is English, he would show name:en=Montreal and name:British Columbia. Tell me where this is not easier than adding a redundant name:en or name:fr for every town, bus stop and street in Canada. You would only have to change the multilangual renderer so that it would display it like that. This is no problem because I guess it is still in development – It could be done relatively easy (from a non-developer standpoint speaking). Plus, most of todays nodes only have a name=... tag, not a name:xyz=... one. You would not need to change anything. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Revival: Multilingual Country-List
Hi I revived the Multilingual Country-List tool. Now with Overpass-API as source, it's a useful tool again. If you find the time, head over to http://toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/ and look for your favorite language. Nice :) I just wanted to point out a paragraph on the tool which IMHO is bad advice : Sometimes the name of a country in the selected language (the value of the name:xx-Tag) is identical to the name of this country in the native language of this country (which is stored in the name-Tag). Because the content of the name-Tag is the natural fallback for a missing name:xx-Tag, in such a case there should be no name:xx-Tag for this language. But if there's one anyway, this duplicate tag is highlighted in orange. You may delete those name:xx-Tags without changing anything in the effective Name. The recent multilingual map has demonstrated that it is actually *not* ok to leave out the name:xx tag if it is identical to the name tag. Consider this usecase : * I prefer to read French but can also read English, so I set may language priority to name:fr - name:en - name. * I now take a look at a country like Central African Republic whose local name is a French one. * If the name:fr tag is present I get to see the French name. * If the name:fr is removed, I get to see the English name, which is acceptable but suboptimal. So instead of saying that one may delete the name:xx tag if it is identical to the name tag (to reduce bloat, presumably), the multilingual-country-list should encourage to add the name:xx tag in all cases. -- Vincent de Phily PS: newly registered to mailing-list, sorry if threading is messed-up. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Revival: Multilingual Country-List
2013/2/21 moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com: Nice :) I just wanted to point out a paragraph on the tool which IMHO is bad advice : Sometimes the name of a country in the selected language (the value of the name:xx-Tag) is identical to the name of this country in the native language of this country You may delete those name:xx-Tags without changing anything in the effective Name. The recent multilingual map has demonstrated that it is actually *not* ok to leave out the name:xx tag if it is identical to the name tag. +1, at least as long as we don't store the default/official language(s) for a feature, the name:xx tag should not be removed, even if it is a duplicate of the name tag. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Revival: Multilingual Country-List
Am 21.02.2013 11:43, schrieb moltonel 3x Combo: So instead of saying that one may delete the name:xx tag if it is identical to the name tag (to reduce bloat, presumably), the multilingual-country-list should encourage to add the name:xx tag in all cases. I would rather vote for a solution which compares the name tag according to region. So, for Central African Republic the default language is set to french, meaning that name is automatically also becoming name:fr. Of course, you have some problems with multilingual countries, but most of them have one strongly dominant language (China, USA), or the languages are divided by region (Belgium, Switzerland). If there are some few leftovers which do pose problem (where there is no clearly defined language – e.g. Brussels), one can look for individual solutions for them. If you recommend to add a redundant name:xx tag, most people will not follow that advice. You would have to do that for every single road, every single shop, every single bus stop. This is not practical. It is much more practical to do it in the renderer. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Revival: Multilingual Country-List
Am 21.02.2013 12:20, schrieb Hans Schmidt: Am 21.02.2013 11:43, schrieb moltonel 3x Combo: So instead of saying that one may delete the name:xx tag if it is identical to the name tag (to reduce bloat, presumably), the multilingual-country-list should encourage to add the name:xx tag in all cases. I would rather vote for a solution which compares the name tag according to region. So, for Central African Republic the default language is set to french, meaning that name is automatically also becoming name:fr. Of course, you have some problems with multilingual countries, but most of them have one strongly dominant language (China, USA), or the languages are divided by region (Belgium, Switzerland). If there are some few leftovers which do pose problem (where there is no clearly defined language – e.g. Brussels), one can look for individual solutions for them. If you recommend to add a redundant name:xx tag, most people will not follow that advice. You would have to do that for every single road, every single shop, every single bus stop. This is not practical. It is much more practical to do it in the renderer. Well... if there's no localized name tag, then you may omit the name:xx tag for that language, as there's no alternative. On the other hand name:de might be useful even then, as it's possible to translate programmatically if the software knows about the language. The German suffixes -straße, -weg, -platz could be automatically transcoded to street, way and square, the afaik swedish -gatan is street again, väg is way and so on. But if you try to translate something to another language this way where you don't know the source language, it's much more difficult. So a recommendation might be to - always tag name - if you translate name into different languages, always add name:originalLanguageCode with the same content - if you want, add that even if you don't translate it to different languages. Yes, that's redundant - but it's easy to cut out for software (cut out every language attribute that equals the plain name), if wanted; and it's less error prone than a tag like language=de or like the lists of default language areas you propose above. Sure: These list are helpful for all cases where only name is given, and that's a necessity for great software dealing with that, but that's the way defaults in OSM work: there should be a few defaults for mappers, where they should decide to not add a tag, but more defaults for data consumers, who could/should be able to have a best guess where data is missing. regards Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Revival: Multilingual Country-List
Am 21.02.2013 12:36, schrieb Peter Wendorff: Well... if there's no localized name tag, then you may omit the name:xx tag for that language, as there's no alternative. On the other hand name:de might be useful even then, as it's possible to translate programmatically if the software knows about the language. The German suffixes -straße, -weg, -platz could be automatically transcoded to street, way and square, the afaik swedish -gatan is street again, väg is way and so on. But if you try to translate something to another language this way where you don't know the source language, it's much more difficult. Why would you want to translate the street names? Do you want to translate Paris' “Avenue des Champs-Élysées” to “Allee der Champs-Élysées”? Nobody would know what it is anymore. Also, nobody wants to translate a “Lindenallee” in some minor german town to “Linden avenue”. Also, automatic translation would be error prone. So a recommendation might be to - always tag name - if you translate name into different languages, always add name:originalLanguageCode with the same content - if you want, add that even if you don't translate it to different languages. Yes, that's redundant - but it's easy to cut out for software (cut out every language attribute that equals the plain name), if wanted; and it's less error prone than a tag like language=de or like the lists of default language areas you propose above. Sure: These list are helpful for all cases where only name is given, and that's a necessity for great software dealing with that, but that's the way defaults in OSM work: there should be a few defaults for mappers, where they should decide to not add a tag, but more defaults for data consumers, who could/should be able to have a best guess where data is missing. You say that there should be few defaults for mappers. But what you propose is exactly the opposite: You'd have a default, meaning that you would need to create a name:originallanguage even if there is a name present. I would bet that nobody does this. And if you don’t do it like that, chaos will occur if you decide to display the name. In contrast, if you do it based on region, it would simplify things much more: 1. You take the nodes/relation for Canada, add language=en. 2. You take the nodes/relation for Québec: language=fr Then everybody would just continue using name=British Columbia and name=Montréal, and no problem. The multilingual renderer would then show, in case the user wants to see French names, name=Montréal and name:fr=Colombie-Britannique. If the user is English, he would show name:en=Montreal and name:British Columbia. Tell me where this is not easier than adding a redundant name:en or name:fr for every town, bus stop and street in Canada. You would only have to change the multilangual renderer so that it would display it like that. This is no problem because I guess it is still in development – It could be done relatively easy (from a non-developer standpoint speaking). Plus, most of todays nodes only have a name=... tag, not a name:xyz=... one. You would not need to change anything. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Revival: Multilingual Country-List
2013/2/21 Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de: Well... if there's no localized name tag, then you may omit the name:xx tag for that language, as there's no alternative. as you point out yourself, then you won't know in which language this name is. We should tag something like lang=xx to set the default language (also lang=xx;yy;zz for multiple default/official languages). Actually what could be omitted then is the name-tag, but not the name:xx-tag. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Revival: Multilingual Country-List
Am 21.02.2013 13:07, schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer: Where do you set this *1 and with which tag? Currently it doesn't look as if for your example any default language is set: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/192790 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/432424956 but it looks as if there are 2 official languages, so putting the default to french looks like a potential offense to me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central%20African%20Republic?uselang=en Official languages: French Sango yes, I know that especially for African countries, this could get messy. There are many other examples where this would clearly give benefits, though. For problematic cases one could develop something special. Btw, for multilanguage stuff, I'd want a JOSM plugin somehow in this form: http://www.abload.de/img/josm92o58.jpg First, in JOSM you could select based with the Overpass API what you want to download: All nodes for Japanese prefectures (in my example), all cities in Germany etc. Then, JOSM would display these things in a tabular form, where it would first analyse which name:xy tags are present, and then display them like that. This would give the following advantages: 1. You could easily see where there are missing items 2. If there are two similar name tags (in my case, ja_kana and ja_hira), they could be merged. 3. The input is _much_ faster than opening every node on the map, adding a new name:xy tag etc, pressing ok, selecting the next one etc. 4. If you want to add a new translation, just add a new column. In my opinion, without some tabular based approach, the multilingual project cannot be successful, because the input is _way_ to cumbersome. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Revival: Multilingual Country-List
On 21 February 2013 13:29, Hans Schmidt z0idb...@gmx.de wrote: yes, I know that especially for African countries, this could get messy. There are many other examples where this would clearly give benefits, though. For problematic cases one could develop something special. It gets messy in a lot of places in the world. To pick just one example that I know well : Ireland has both English and Irish names everywhere, but which one goes into the name tag can be very tricky to figure out. There are a few areas of Ireland where the Irish name is the dominant one, but the boundaries are fuzzy and osm doesn't have a relation for them. Some places use an Irish name in an English-dominated area, and vice-versa. There's even a town that uses English for its name, but Irish for the name of its train station. It's just too messy, I do not see how defining a default language for a region could deal with such cases. Remember that which language is selected for the name tag is sometimes very contentious, and that it gets sorted by the local mappers rather than by the sysadmin of some mapnik server. Besides, I actually think that adding the redundant name:XX tag is actually simpler than modifying the code of many renderers to take something completely new into account. On the other hand, it should be very easy to check that if a place has at least one name:xx tag, it should also have one that matches the name tag either inside the editor or via a bot. -- Vincent de Phily ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Revival: Multilingual Country-List
On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 12:29 PM, Hans Schmidt z0idb...@gmx.de wrote: Btw, for multilanguage stuff, I'd want a JOSM plugin somehow in this form: http://www.abload.de/img/josm92o58.jpg First, in JOSM you could select based with the Overpass API what you want to download: All nodes for Japanese prefectures (in my example), all cities in Germany etc. Then, JOSM would display these things in a tabular form, where it would first analyse which name:xy tags are present, and then display them like that. This would give the following advantages: 1. You could easily see where there are missing items 2. If there are two similar name tags (in my case, ja_kana and ja_hira), they could be merged. 3. The input is _much_ faster than opening every node on the map, adding a new name:xy tag etc, pressing ok, selecting the next one etc. 4. If you want to add a new translation, just add a new column. In my opinion, without some tabular based approach, the multilingual project cannot be successful, because the input is _way_ to cumbersome. +1 This is why we (well, all credit goes to user mpele) started with our own transliteration plugin (Serbian Cyrillic - Serbian Latin) [1], based on the tag editor plugin: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Plugins/TagEditor It could be a nice idea to extend this to a more general purpose multilingual editor, with e.g. copy source lang to dest lang option, more transliteration filters, etc. M [1] http://svn.mpele.iz.rs/SerbianTransliterator/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Revival: Multilingual Country-List
Hi I revived the Multilingual Country-List tool. Now with Overpass-API as source, it's a useful tool again. If you find the time, head over to http://toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/ and look for your favorite language. If you find a low completeness (100%), check out the list of the country names. If they are translated well, click the mark ok link and your progress rises. If the translation is bad, use the josm link to update load up the respective node and add a name:XX tag with the correct translation. Less then 10 minutes later, the update should arrive in the list and you can mark the now fixed translation as OK. Have fun! Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Revival: Multilingual Country-List
Hi Ooouch, didn't check for 64bit compatibility (the toolserver is 32bit userland), so I hat to modify the scripts. During this, an old dump needed to be inserted, so that all OK status from the ölast hours was lost. The translations are still therte, they just need to be marked as OK again. Sorry for the inconvenience. Peter Am 20.02.2013 10:47, schrieb Peter Körner: Hi I revived the Multilingual Country-List tool. Now with Overpass-API as source, it's a useful tool again. If you find the time, head over to http://toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/ and look for your favorite language. If you find a low completeness (100%), check out the list of the country names. If they are translated well, click the mark ok link and your progress rises. If the translation is bad, use the josm link to update load up the respective node and add a name:XX tag with the correct translation. Less then 10 minutes later, the update should arrive in the list and you can mark the now fixed translation as OK. Have fun! Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Revival: Multilingual Country-List
Hi yes, i'm very sorry I messed up things that bad :/ After restoring the bad database from a dump, i realized that the dump did not have proper utf-8 encoding, so a lot of data was lost. right now i have it all back up again and working. Regards Am 20.02.2013 15:33, schrieb Jean-Guilhem Cailton: Hi, Currently, there seems to be a problem with accented characters, where words are truncated. See eg: https://toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/?lang=fr (They were showing ok earlier today). Thanks for this tool. Best regards, Jean-Guilhem Le 20/02/2013 15:16, Peter Körner a écrit : Hi Ooouch, didn't check for 64bit compatibility (the toolserver is 32bit userland), so I hat to modify the scripts. During this, an old dump needed to be inserted, so that all OK status from the ölast hours was lost. The translations are still therte, they just need to be marked as OK again. Sorry for the inconvenience. Peter Am 20.02.2013 10:47, schrieb Peter Körner: Hi I revived the Multilingual Country-List tool. Now with Overpass-API as source, it's a useful tool again. If you find the time, head over to http://toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/ and look for your favorite language. If you find a low completeness (100%), check out the list of the country names. If they are translated well, click the mark ok link and your progress rises. If the translation is bad, use the josm link to update load up the respective node and add a name:XX tag with the correct translation. Less then 10 minutes later, the update should arrive in the list and you can mark the now fixed translation as OK. Have fun! Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
