Re: [OSM-talk] iD influencing tagging

[yves]

The iD editor team has made a tremendous job so far, and it's probably 
because some people working together tightly have come up with good 
ideas, and this is good.
However, when such an idea become controversial, it would be good 
practice  to reach out openly with the wider community and other editors 
developers, and take the time to do so. But in the end, it's up to them. 
I don't see an 'Editor software rules working group' be a big success.


On another side, and when it comes to tagging (because it also comes to 
that), I do understand that somebody wanting to have things done feel 
irritated by the too few people discussing the matter at length on the 
tagging list and the wiki. However, these are  communication channels we 
have, and the people dedicated to it. For a maintainer of iD, to despise 
these channel for advice or discussion is not helping to gain trust in 
the development team, a very good way to make these channels worse, and 
everybody's frustration high.


Yves


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Re: [OSM-talk] iD influencing tagging

[Yuri Astrakhan]

Martin, thanks for explanation, but my point still stands -- in tags, we
treat words not at their own meaning, but as IDs that represent some agreed
concepts.  The German wiki page has a warning about "evangelical", so it is
likely not all German-speaking mappers are aware of the distinction, or
know English well enough to know this.  The same applies to highways -
"highway" the word has different meaning in different regions, whereas
"highway" the OSM tag should have just a single meaning that's clear to
every mapper and every consumer.

On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 3:50 AM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 7. Apr 2019, at 22:23, Yuri Astrakhan 
> wrote:
> >
> > A good example is "denomination=evangelical" -- German speakers should
> not use it for "evangelisch" which stands for denomination=protestant. The
> word may be the same, but we treat "evangelical" as an ID for a specific
> meaning, rather than reflect local language customs.
>
>
> actually “evangelical” translates in German to “evangelikal”, which
> doesn’t seem to be very confusing. Someone thinking it means “evangelisch”
> is likely mapping in a domain s/he isn’t acquainted with.
>
> Cheers, Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] iD influencing tagging

[Simon Poole]

Am 07.04.2019 um 18:12 schrieb Clifford Snow:
>  The original post on talk-de really seemed to be complaining that the
> development staff is paid. Maybe what we should be asking is "Should
> OSMF fund development of tools?" 

I think that isn't really a correct interpretation of the original
concern raised.

It was more (paraphrasing so I apologize if I'm mangling things too
much): the default editor on osm.org is in a privileged position and
gives who ever is in control of it has substantial power over the
project, this has always been the case and isn't something new (as
Richard has pointed out). The concern raised was that there are no real
checks and balances (not even the need to finance a living by a day job
as Richard had to do) wrt that power.

Tagging decision are what the following discussion jumped on, but I
don't really think that is so critical, there was a phase when there was
a couple of weird decisions, but in general these have always (just as
with JOSM) tended to affect low use tags. In the grand scheme of things
not really a big deal.

I would be more concerned about things being added to iD's functionality
that look like "good ideas" but haven't gone through a proper critical
(non-technical) review as in "do we actually want this feature and what
are the consequences of adding it". Two particularly problematic
"recent" additions: recording the last position in the walk through and
recording the number of warnings that have been ignored in changesets.
It doesn't really matter if this was a requests by the unknown entities
holding the purse strings, or if Bryan and Quincy simply thought them up
over a beer or similar, they still should have been discussed in a wider
(aka not just the OSM-US bubble) audience before the first line of code
was written.

Simon





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Re: [OSM-talk] iD influencing tagging

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 7. Apr 2019, at 22:23, Yuri Astrakhan  wrote:
> 
> A good example is "denomination=evangelical" -- German speakers should not 
> use it for "evangelisch" which stands for denomination=protestant. The word 
> may be the same, but we treat "evangelical" as an ID for a specific meaning, 
> rather than reflect local language customs.


actually “evangelical” translates in German to “evangelikal”, which doesn’t 
seem to be very confusing. Someone thinking it means “evangelisch” is likely 
mapping in a domain s/he isn’t acquainted with.

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Re: [OSM-talk] iD influencing tagging

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 7. Apr 2019, at 21:08, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:
> 
> Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>> Now while everybody is free to use any tag she likes, I would not 
>> expect the OpenStreetMap-Foundation standard editor to 
>> introduce new tags through presets. 
> 
> It's been happening since Potlatch 1 came online in 2007, so you should have
> had a few years to get used to it by now...


Richard, you have great merit in the OSM ecosystem, and all my respect for your 
notable contribution to OSM, but you really can’t compare 2007 (a bunch of 
mappers having to develop yet tags for almost everything) with 2019 (a complex 
tagging scheme for many things is already established).



> 
> I don't follow that iD has any particular status because of its default
> location on the edit tab: JOSM arguably has more "heft" because its bulk
> editing abilities allow people to impose new tags by force of number, not to
> mention you 'orrible lot forever bombarding the poor newbie to use JOSM or
> else. ;)


most new mappers use iD, I don’t think you can argue about this, and most 
mappers aren’t subscribed to any channel where they would get such advice to 
use JOSM ;-)


Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] iD influencing tagging

[john whelan]

This is good we have a quality control mechanism even if it is a blunt
instrument, and we think the risk is low on the TRA side.

Thank you for your input.

Cheerio John

On Sun, 7 Apr 2019 at 19:07, Andy Townsend  wrote:

> On 07/04/2019 23:37, john whelan wrote:
>
> > Developing an editor requires making decisions and having opinions on
> OSM tagging. This in turn means getting it wrong sometimes.
>
> ...
> With something like iD spoon feeding new mappers with suggested presets
> the impact is much greater if something isn't quite right or the
> "directions" are not crystal clear and let's face it not all mapper's first
> language is English and reading through instructions is not fashionable in
> some quarters.
>
> That's not borne out by what I see with a DWG hat on - we get to see quite
> a lot of complaints about problems caused by new mappers, and complaints
> about mistagging due to an editor preset in iD is pretty rare.  New mappers
> making faux pas due to misunderstanding JOSM, on the other hand, is pretty
> common.  That doesn't mean that one editor is inherently "good" and the
> other "bad" - they're different tools for different jobs.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] iD influencing tagging

[Andy Townsend]

On 07/04/2019 23:37, john whelan wrote:
> Developing an editor requires making decisions and having opinions 
on OSM tagging. This in turn means getting it wrong sometimes.


...
With something like iD spoon feeding new mappers with suggested 
presets the impact is much greater if something isn't quite right or 
the "directions" are not crystal clear and let's face it not all 
mapper's first language is English and reading through instructions is 
not fashionable in some quarters.


That's not borne out by what I see with a DWG hat on - we get to see 
quite a lot of complaints about problems caused by new mappers, and 
complaints about mistagging due to an editor preset in iD is pretty 
rare.  New mappers making faux pas due to misunderstanding JOSM, on the 
other hand, is pretty common.  That doesn't mean that one editor is 
inherently "good" and the other "bad" - they're different tools for 
different jobs.


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] iD influencing tagging

[john whelan]

> Developing an editor requires making decisions and having opinions on OSM
tagging. This in turn means getting it wrong sometimes.

There is a concept of Threat Risk Assessment which more or less says to
manage risk you take into account the impact if it goes wrong.  If we have
individual mappers making decisions on tags then if they get one wrong no
big deal the impact on the overall map is small.

With something like iD spoon feeding new mappers with suggested presets the
impact is much greater if something isn't quite right or the "directions"
are not crystal clear and let's face it not all mapper's first language is
English and reading through instructions is not fashionable in some
quarters.

I have two thoughts one is simply we have discussed the matter and accepted
that the TRA is acceptable, the other comes back to your point about
decisions being made.  Should there be a reviewing committee before
implementation? This is a more formal approach than OSM has traditionally
taken but we have grown in size and perhaps it is time to be more formal
for somethings these days.

Cheerio John

On Sun, 7 Apr 2019 at 18:23, Paul Norman  wrote:

> JOSM has also done the same, and gone farther with creating new tags on
> its issue tracker.
>
> Developing an editor requires making decisions and having opinions on OSM
> tagging. This in turn means getting it wrong sometimes.
>
> On Apr 7, 2019 5:43 AM, John Whelan  wrote:
>
> I note that the matter has been raised in talk-de and mentioned in osm
> weekly.
>
> Tagging is not always easy, but I do have concerns when iD is so commonly
> used but the recommended tags do not align with OpenStreetMap I'll say
> normals.
>
> Specifically one of my concerns is a semi-detached house is not recognised
> in iD only the more general tag house.
>
> JOSM I think is much more open than iD but given the way OpenStreetMap
> functions I suspect ID is a much more closed environment.
>
> For example JOSM has the buildings_tool plugin, Africa has a large number
> of odd shaped buildings mapped in iD.
>
> Thoughts ladies and gentlemen?
>
> Thanks John
>
>
> --
> Sent from Postbox
> 
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] iD influencing tagging

[Paul Norman via talk]

JOSM has also done the same, and gone farther with creating new tags on its issue tracker.Developing an editor requires making decisions and having opinions on OSM tagging. This in turn means getting it wrong sometimes.On Apr 7, 2019 5:43 AM, John Whelan  wrote:
I note that the 
matter has been raised in talk-de and mentioned in osm weekly.Tagging
 is not always easy, but I do have concerns when iD is so commonly used 
but the recommended tags do not align with OpenStreetMap I'll say 
normals.  Specifically one of my concerns is a semi-detached 
house is not recognised in iD only the more general tag house.JOSM
 I think is much more open than iD but given the way OpenStreetMap 
functions I suspect ID is a much more closed environment.  For 
example JOSM has the buildings_tool plugin, Africa has a large number of
 odd shaped buildings mapped in iD.Thoughts ladies and 
gentlemen?Thanks John-- 
Sent from Postbox

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Re: [OSM-talk] iD influencing tagging

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Apr 7, 2019, 2:43 PM by jwhelan0...@gmail.com :

> I suspect ID is a much more closed environment.  
>
(...)

>
> Thoughts ladies and gentlemen?
>
Have you tried opening issue on iD bugtracker?

See https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD 

Complaining on mailing list should be never done before exhausting more 
productive
methods for solving problems.
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Re: [OSM-talk] iD influencing tagging

[Yuri Astrakhan]

On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 1:48 PM john whelan  wrote:

> Tagging is not always easy, highways in Africa are an example.  See a dirt
> track in Europe and its probably a highway=track.  In Africa it probably
> isn't.
>

A "road is a highway" is confusing because the word "highway" has a
different meaning depending on the region. Yet, tagging should not be
ambiguous -- the whole idea about tagging is so that I (the consumer) can
understand what you (the mapper) meant in the most precise way.  A good
example is "denomination=evangelical" -- German speakers should not use it
for "evangelisch" which stands for denomination=protestant. The word may be
the same, but we treat "evangelical" as an ID for a specific meaning,
rather than reflect local language customs.
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Re: [OSM-talk] iD influencing tagging

[Richard Fairhurst]

Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> Now while everybody is free to use any tag she likes, I would not 
> expect the OpenStreetMap-Foundation standard editor to 
> introduce new tags through presets. 

It's been happening since Potlatch 1 came online in 2007, so you should have
had a few years to get used to it by now...

Writing software is an art, not a mechanical Turk where results of endless
consultations are fed robotically into a Javascript editor. The iD
developers are remarkably responsive to concerns raised about mapping
standards, much more than I ever was as P1/P2 maintainer and, dare I say it,
more than JOSM's maintainers have historically been. That they don't
mindlessly follow bad tagging practices, but think about the impact and
consistency of tagging, is all to their credit.

I don't follow that iD has any particular status because of its default
location on the edit tab: JOSM arguably has more "heft" because its bulk
editing abilities allow people to impose new tags by force of number, not to
mention you 'orrible lot forever bombarding the poor newbie to use JOSM or
else. ;)

cheers
Richard



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Re: [OSM-talk] iD influencing tagging

[john whelan]

and I think this is precisely my concern.

Tagging is not always easy, highways in Africa are an example.  See a dirt
track in Europe and its probably a highway=track.  In Africa it probably
isn't.

Cheerio John

On Sun, 7 Apr 2019 at 11:51, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 7. Apr 2019, at 16:44, Bryce Jasmer  wrote:
> >
> > Can you give some examples of what the OSM normals are and how iD
> differs from them?
>
>
> from time to time the iD developers don’t like the established tagging and
> prefer to make iD tagging presets for new tags which they believe are
> better.
> Now while everybody is free to use any tag she likes, I would not expect
> the OpenStreetMap-Foundation standard editor to introduce new tags through
> presets. Good practice for default presets (e.g. in JOSM) is to use tags
> that are already well established. Generally we want our tags to be
> standing on a broad basis, we encourage discussion prior to using them. The
> development team of an editor is typically too restricted to be considered
> a broad basis. Tagging discussions in Github are also defacto excluding
> Jane Mapper from participating (because she doesn’t get aware of it).
>
> Cheers, Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] iD influencing tagging

[john whelan]

>John - did you look at Github issue 2776 [1] that discussed
Semi-Detached?  I've never tagged a semi-detached house, but iD offers it
as a preset.

I don't normally use iD but you must explain to me where iD offers it as a
preset since I was unable to spot it. Stats Canada's project to map
buildings is where the concern arose.  The more precise the detail the more
valuable is the information.

Open / Closed environment simply that iD is very widely used which means I
think it should be held to a higher standard since its presets are
generally the ones used.  OSM has room for discussion I maybe mistaken but
I'm under the impression that the programmers here make the decisions.
Based on my programming background normally the technical authority is not
the programmer.

In JOSM using the buildings_tool to map a line of square buildings takes
two clicks per building and they are both square and correctly tagged.  iD
takes far more clicks.  Squaring after drawing introduces a level of
approximation.

Cheerio John

On Sun, 7 Apr 2019 at 12:12, Clifford Snow  wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 5:44 AM John Whelan  wrote:
>
>> I note that the matter has been raised in talk-de and mentioned in osm
>> weekly.
>>
>> Tagging is not always easy, but I do have concerns when iD is so commonly
>> used but the recommended tags do not align with OpenStreetMap I'll say
>> normals.
>>
>> Specifically one of my concerns is a semi-detached house is not
>> recognised in iD only the more general tag house.
>>
>> John - did you look at Github issue 2776 [1] that discussed
> Semi-Detached?  I've never tagged a semi-detached house, but iD offers it
> as a preset.
>
> JOSM I think is much more open than iD but given the way OpenStreetMap
>> functions I suspect ID is a much more closed environment.
>>
>
> Can you help me understand what you  mean by iD is a much more closed
> environment? Are you saying because it is a browser based application it is
> more closed or???  When I look at the number of people that have created
> issues and the current pull requests it seems like a number of people are
> involved.
>
>>
>> For example JOSM has the buildings_tool plugin, Africa has a large number
>> of odd shaped buildings mapped in iD.
>>
>
> It seems to me that building shapes are more of a newbie issue  than
> editor issue. I look at each new editor in my state. Squaring buildings is
> one of the most common tips I give new mappers. Had they started out in
> JOSM, I suspect I'd still be giving the same tip. Not because of the editor
> but they wouldn't know to install and use the building tool.
>
>
>> Thoughts ladies and gentlemen?
>>
>
> I believe iD has come a long way.  I'm using it more and more instead of
> JOSM. I applaud the speed at which Bryan and others respond to issues and
> have improved it. The original post on talk-de really seemed to be
> complaining that the development staff is paid. Maybe what we should be
> asking is "Should OSMF fund development of tools?"
>
> [1]  https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2776
>
> Best,
> Clifford
>
> --
> @osm_washington
> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] iD influencing tagging

[Tomas Straupis]

2019-04-07, sk, 19:06 Bryce Jasmer rašė:
> The wiki page for landuse=reservoir says:
> "Description: Ambiguous and better alternatives exist, see water=reservoir"
> So, is iD wrong to use this, or is the wiki incorrect?

  Wiki is incorrect. Even "creator" of "everything blue is
natural=water" agreed (in wiki discussion) that his scheme is in no
way superior to existing OSM water scheme and does not depreciate
established landuse=reservoir tag (and other tags like
waterway=riverbank etc.).
  And most importantly - mappers have "voted" with mapping more
landuse=reservoir (426 123) than water=reservoir (194 454) (even with
iD making it extremely hard for non experts to tag landuse=reservoir).

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Re: [OSM-talk] iD influencing tagging

[Clifford Snow]

On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 5:44 AM John Whelan  wrote:

> I note that the matter has been raised in talk-de and mentioned in osm
> weekly.
>
> Tagging is not always easy, but I do have concerns when iD is so commonly
> used but the recommended tags do not align with OpenStreetMap I'll say
> normals.
>
> Specifically one of my concerns is a semi-detached house is not recognised
> in iD only the more general tag house.
>
> John - did you look at Github issue 2776 [1] that discussed
Semi-Detached?  I've never tagged a semi-detached house, but iD offers it
as a preset.

JOSM I think is much more open than iD but given the way OpenStreetMap
> functions I suspect ID is a much more closed environment.
>

Can you help me understand what you  mean by iD is a much more closed
environment? Are you saying because it is a browser based application it is
more closed or???  When I look at the number of people that have created
issues and the current pull requests it seems like a number of people are
involved.

>
> For example JOSM has the buildings_tool plugin, Africa has a large number
> of odd shaped buildings mapped in iD.
>

It seems to me that building shapes are more of a newbie issue  than editor
issue. I look at each new editor in my state. Squaring buildings is one of
the most common tips I give new mappers. Had they started out in JOSM, I
suspect I'd still be giving the same tip. Not because of the editor but
they wouldn't know to install and use the building tool.


> Thoughts ladies and gentlemen?
>

I believe iD has come a long way.  I'm using it more and more instead of
JOSM. I applaud the speed at which Bryan and others respond to issues and
have improved it. The original post on talk-de really seemed to be
complaining that the development staff is paid. Maybe what we should be
asking is "Should OSMF fund development of tools?"

[1]  https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2776

Best,
Clifford

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] iD influencing tagging

[Bryce Jasmer]

The wiki page for landuse=reservoir says:

"Description: Ambiguous and better alternatives exist, see water=reservoir"

So, is iD wrong to use this, or is the wiki incorrect?

On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 8:24 AM Tomas Straupis 
wrote:

> 2019-04-07, sk, 17:47 Bryce Jasmer rašė:
> > Can you give some examples of what the OSM normals are and how iD
> differs from them?
>
>   There is no way (other than writing tags directly) to tag reservoirs
> as landuse=reservoir (original and still wider used water tagging
> scheme), iD insists on natural=water+water=reservoir.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] iD influencing tagging

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 7. Apr 2019, at 16:44, Bryce Jasmer  wrote:
> 
> Can you give some examples of what the OSM normals are and how iD differs 
> from them?


from time to time the iD developers don’t like the established tagging and 
prefer to make iD tagging presets for new tags which they believe are better.
Now while everybody is free to use any tag she likes, I would not expect the 
OpenStreetMap-Foundation standard editor to introduce new tags through presets. 
Good practice for default presets (e.g. in JOSM) is to use tags that are 
already well established. Generally we want our tags to be standing on a broad 
basis, we encourage discussion prior to using them. The development team of an 
editor is typically too restricted to be considered a broad basis. Tagging 
discussions in Github are also defacto excluding Jane Mapper from participating 
(because she doesn’t get aware of it).

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] iD influencing tagging

[Tomas Straupis]

2019-04-07, sk, 17:47 Bryce Jasmer rašė:
> Can you give some examples of what the OSM normals are and how iD differs 
> from them?

  There is no way (other than writing tags directly) to tag reservoirs
as landuse=reservoir (original and still wider used water tagging
scheme), iD insists on natural=water+water=reservoir.

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Re: [OSM-talk] iD influencing tagging

[Bryce Jasmer]

Can you give some examples of what the OSM normals are and how iD differs
from them?

Is there a bug against iD not showing semi-detached house? Can you provide
the link(s) to the bug(s) so we can read what the discussion/rationale is
for not showing it?

As for a building tool, is there any evidence one would be rejected if
someone wrote and tested a feature and submitted a pull request?


On Sun, Apr 7, 2019, 5:44 AM John Whelan  wrote:

> I note that the matter has been raised in talk-de and mentioned in osm
> weekly.
>
> Tagging is not always easy, but I do have concerns when iD is so commonly
> used but the recommended tags do not align with OpenStreetMap I'll say
> normals.
>
> Specifically one of my concerns is a semi-detached house is not recognised
> in iD only the more general tag house.
>
> JOSM I think is much more open than iD but given the way OpenStreetMap
> functions I suspect ID is a much more closed environment.
>
> For example JOSM has the buildings_tool plugin, Africa has a large number
> of odd shaped buildings mapped in iD.
>
> Thoughts ladies and gentlemen?
>
> Thanks John
>
>
> --
> Sent from Postbox
> 
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[OSM-talk] iD influencing tagging

[John Whelan]

I note that the matter has been raised in talk-de and mentioned in osm 
weekly.


Tagging is not always easy, but I do have concerns when iD is so 
commonly used but the recommended tags do not align with OpenStreetMap 
I'll say normals.


Specifically one of my concerns is a semi-detached house is not 
recognised in iD only the more general tag house.


JOSM I think is much more open than iD but given the way OpenStreetMap 
functions I suspect ID is a much more closed environment.


For example JOSM has the buildings_tool plugin, Africa has a large 
number of odd shaped buildings mapped in iD.


Thoughts ladies and gentlemen?

Thanks John


--
Sent from Postbox 

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