Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Ben Abelshausen]

On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 10:31 AM, Andy Townsend  wrote:
>
> It's a building that is a closed way, but only just.  How can I offer to
> help that mapper do what they are trying to do better?  All the changeset
> comment says is "#MissingMaps #hotosm-project-1254 Lubumbashi, Congo (DRC)
> #100mapathons #OSMGeoWeek " - to me the only useful information in there is
> "Lubumbashi, Congo (DRC)", which I already know since that is exactly where
> this edit is.
>

That's why I suggested to put more of a description in the comment.

What I mean is that, compared to most of the changesets out there, this is
pretty good but that things can always be better and there is room for
improvement without changing too much the way this works now.


> More importantly, how do I contact the person who told this new mapper
> that "#MissingMaps #hotosm-project-1254 Lubumbashi, Congo (DRC)
> #100mapathons #OSMGeoWeek" was a suitable changeset comment, to explain to
> them what we use changeset comments for and what makes a good one?  If I
> can talk to them, I can probably help them help other new users too, and
> not just with stuff about changeset comments - as an OSM mapper think of
> all the "how to interpret imagery" latent knowledge that you have simply by
> being able to compare a place you visited with the imagery of that place.
>

We could even add the url of the task as a changeset tag. And yes the
tasking manager won't be online forever but changesets also become less
usefull the older they get.

Met vriendelijke groeten,
Best regards,

Ben Abelshausen
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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Michael Reichert]

Hi,



Am 19. November 2015 01:52:40 MEZ, schrieb john whelan :
> HOT and OSM are slightly different, HOT maps on OSM but uses a simpler
> more
> standardized approach.  

HOT uses the OSM database/platform and therefore it has to adapt and follow 
OSM's rules. Nobody forces you to use OSM. Why don't you do something like 
OpenHistoricalMap and use your own database basrd on OSM software?

> HOT tends to map in areas that do not have a great deal of OSM mapping
> already in place so I don't see that it really matters if they use
> preset
> comments from the tile system.  The HOT comment gives you the task and
> tile
> number so you can look up on the tile system where it is and also what
> has
> been asked for.

A mapper should be able to get an idea what has been edited at a given 
changeset without decrypting the changeset comment using an external service 
(HOT tasking manager in this case). Who guarantees that HOT tasking manager 
will still be online in 5 or 10 years?

Best regards

Michael
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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Jóhannes Birgir Jensson]

HOT uses the OSM database/platform and therefore it has to adapt and
follow OSM's rules. Nobody forces you to use OSM. Why don't you do
something like OpenHistoricalMap and use your own database basrd on
OSM software?


There are no rules for changeset comments. They are an optional feature, 
the number of empty comments each day is substantial yet I don't see 
them being advocated for removal.



A mapper should be able to get an idea what has been edited at a given
changeset without decrypting the changeset comment using an external
service (HOT tasking manager in this case). Who guarantees that HOT
tasking manager will still be online in 5 or 10 years?


This feature already exists on the OSM website, looking at changesets.

I have no problem with an entry in ANY language. Wolf, French etc etc. 
I probably won't understand it directly ... but I can use a web based 
translator.


No you probably will not be able to use a web based translator for the 
majority of languages. Setswana is the primary language of around 6 
million people in South Africa and Botswana (official language) and 
secondary of maybe 8 million more. There is no online translator for it. 
Those that have gotten used to Google Translate will be shocked to find 
out the number and size of many languages missing from it, nevermind the 
quality of automatic translations.


The number of hashtags in the comment might be getting a bit too much 
though!




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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Christoph Hormann]

On Thursday 19 November 2015, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>
> #MissingMaps #hotosm-project-12345 Lubumbashi, Congo (DRC)
> #100mapathons #OSMGeoWeek
>
> This is *not* useful.

But to be fair this is not only the fault of the mappers but also of the 
HOT project managers since they specifically instruct mappers to use 
such changeset comments.  

Generally the HOT project mapping instructions contain a lot of things 
that are questionable from the viewpoint of the OSM community.  IMO HOT 
needs to make sure these comply with the OSM conventions, for example 
by sourcing these instructions from the OSM wiki and allowing the OSM 
community to provide input and fixes this way.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[ueliw0]

Hi

On 19/11/15 09:18, Michael Reichert wrote:

Hi,



Am 19. November 2015 01:52:40 MEZ, schrieb john whelan :

HOT and OSM are slightly different, HOT maps on OSM but uses a simpler
more
standardized approach.

HOT uses the OSM database/platform and therefore it has to adapt and follow 
OSM's rules. Nobody forces you to use OSM. Why don't you do something like 
OpenHistoricalMap and use your own database basrd on OSM software?
Because contrary to the OpenHistoricalMap project, HOT contributors 
typically map the same features that "regular" OSM mappers and users too 
are interested in having in the main database (currently existing roads, 
buildings, rivers, medical facilities, ...). Therefore using a separate 
database would mean  a lot more (duplicate) work for both projects (and 
probably less complete and lower quality maps), so please keep the two 
projects together.


Cheers Ueli

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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-11-19 4:57 GMT+01:00 Kate Chapman :

> I fail to see how machine readable hashtags are "not useful". They allow
> statistical analysis which can be used to inform future recruitment and
> other activities.



they are not very useful for other mappers who try to understand what was
done in a changeset. They aren't descriptions of what was done, hence
shouldn't go into the "description" changeset tag. As the amount and kind
of changeset tags are unlimited like the tags on map objects, there really
isn't a good reason to put these "project-hashtags" into the same category
as the human readable explanations by the mappers about their work in a
particular set of changes. Actually, using a distinct tag might even be
easier to do evaluations.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Christian Pietzsch]

>
>
> Worse, I see many HOT changesets that have source=Bing in the
> changeset comment instead of a separate tag.
>
> Although... Does iD allow setting changeset tags?


The ID Editor doesn't seem to support other changeset tags.
JOSM supports as much changeset tags as you like, but you have to know that
this is possible. I only noticed the other tabs in the upload dialog
recently. I always was focused on the "settings" tab where you just can
input the comment and the source.

I like the usage of hashtags. It enables you to do better analytics but
also has the potential to find the root of errors. We use hashtags in our
German "Wochenaufgabe"(weekly task). If a lot of people start to map things
in an uncommon way because of the weekly task it would be more easy to know
where this idea came from.
One problem I see is if you use to many hashtags and if they aren't
searchable. I hoped to find the HOT task when searching for the hastag but
it did show up int he first search entries. I think this may be fixiable.
But I agree that hashtags would find a better place in an extra tag, but
the editors have to support it and make it easily accessible.

Christian

2015-11-19 4:21 GMT+01:00 Nicolás Alvarez :

> 2015-11-18 21:11 GMT-03:00 Frederik Ramm :
> > This is *not* useful. First of all, we're not Twitter; we don't evaluate
> > these hashtags. I don't know if there are some downstream services that
> > do, but if so, please switch to using a secondary tag (remember,
> > changesets, like other OSM objects, can have any number of tags).
>
> Worse, I see many HOT changesets that have source=Bing in the
> changeset comment instead of a separate tag.
>
> Although... Does iD allow setting changeset tags?
>
> --
> Nicolás
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Paul Johnson]

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 6:52 PM, john whelan  wrote:

> Or are we now asking that all mappers on OSM have to be able to read and
> write in English since that is the normal language for communication in OSM
> or is one of the local African languages sufficient.  If it is then I
> assure you I won't be able to understand what it says.


Personally, I'd be satisified with an intelligible changeset comment in any
language, so even if I can't tell what they were thinking, and Google
Translate can't throw me a bone, presumably someone who does have an idea
of the language in question would be able to have some insight.
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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Nicolás Alvarez]

El 19 nov 2015, a las 06:54, Christian Pietzsch  
escribió:

>> 
>> Worse, I see many HOT changesets that have source=Bing in the
>> changeset comment instead of a separate tag.
>> 
>> Although... Does iD allow setting changeset tags?
> 
> The ID Editor doesn't seem to support other changeset tags.
> JOSM supports as much changeset tags as you like, but you have to know that 
> this is possible. I only noticed the other tabs in the upload dialog 
> recently. I always was focused on the "settings" tab where you just can input 
> the comment and the source.

I don't think iD even has a 'source' text field.

> I like the usage of hashtags. It enables you to do better analytics but also 
> has the potential to find the root of errors. We use hashtags in our German 
> "Wochenaufgabe"(weekly task). If a lot of people start to map things in an 
> uncommon way because of the weekly task it would be more easy to know where 
> this idea came from.

Yeah, I wish the massive amount of school-adding newbies in Argentina, whose 
changesets are wrong more often than not, included a hashtag so that we could 
easily find them and clean the mess. They are coming from some sort of course 
that was never discussed with the OSM community. But considering how they can't 
communicate with us or get the students to do the basic things right 
(educational level in level=, own username in operator=, only name= but no 
amenity=school, adding school node that already existed, nodes added in a 
different continent... we have seen it all), I don't think they can get them to 
add a hashtag...

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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Ben Abelshausen]

These changesets are way more useful than most.

You can go the tasking manager and see exactly what the goal of the mapping
activity was, who is the admin that created the task and who validates,
what mappers contributed and so on.

That doesn't mean things couldn't be better. Maybe moving some information
to the changeset tags may be a solution, the id of the task for example,
and the tile or some description in the comment.

Met vriendelijke groeten,
Best regards,

Ben Abelshausen
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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Robert Banick]

HOT eases people into OSM and gives them an easily understood purpose to begin 
mapping. Some HOTties go on to be power OSMers outside of HOT; some never step 
away from HOT. Both reflect individual preferences, not any isolating tendency 
by HOT. HOT tries to build communities and encourages interaction with OSM 
within the framework of its mission. There’s a lot to improve (with limited 
resources) but we fully intend to build up OSM through our work. Mikel’s use of 
this discussion to launch a helpful github issue ticket is a good example.




As for how the humanitarian sector understands OSM: until HOT came along the 
humanitarian sector didn’t understand OSM, period. The conversations I had in 
2010-2011 and the conversations I have now with fellow humanitarians about OSM 
are light years apart in terms of technical depth and understanding of OSM’s 
workings.








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On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 10:52 PM, Simon Poole  wrote:

> Am 19.11.2015 um 15:53 schrieb Blake Girardot:
>> 
>> It is a ridiculous statement on its face; obviously HOT does not
>> succeed if OSM does not succeed.
> I think we fully agree and if you recheck you will see that I said
> essentially the same.
>>
>> As to the original issue Ramm raised:
>>
>> Most HOT folks who commented agreed the example changeset comments,
>> while useful, could benefit from improvement (as could the vast
>> majority changeset comments in OSM). Mikel has already opened an issue
>> in github to improve them and the issue has already been brought to
>> the people who manage HOT OSM Tasking Manager projects, how is that
>> not working with and being responsive to the larger OSM community?
> Again if you go back you will see that I couldn't quite believe that a
> shism was really being declared because it doesn't make any sense.
> On the other hand you can't deny that HOT is in some ways self defeating
> since it isolates lots of people from the whole of OSM and the nitty
> grity parts. Intentionally naturally, but it doesn't necessarily
> actually help the humanitarian sectors understanding of what OSM is and
> how it works.
>>
>> I think HOT's history demonstrates an eagerness (and outright need) to
>> work with the OSM community at every opportunity (not mistake free of
>> course).  But I can also personally point to at least 1 example where
>> HOT has reached out to OSMF and the License WG and literally been
>> ignored after repeated attempts to even discuss an issue.
> I would be interested in a reference to that. We get a large number of
> enquiries, ~ 200 this year to date, and occasionally stuff gets pushed
> back, particularly if there is no good answer (naturally you would get
> an answer pointing that out).
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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Andy Robinson]

Jolly good show Fairhurst. Second that motion.
Chinner.

-Original Message-
From: Richard Fairhurst [mailto:rich...@systemed.net] 
Sent: 19 November 2015 15:02
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about 
Changeset Comments

Blake Girardot wrote:
> As to the original issue Ramm raised:

Frederik's first name is Frederik. It's not that uncommon. :) Please can we 
avoid this becoming _really_ unnecessarily confrontational by calling people by 
their surnames in a sort of English public school style ("go it, molesworth, 
show them wot yore made of").

Richard




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http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/A-message-to-our-friends-at-HOT-Peace-Corps-etc-about-Changeset-Comments-tp5860424p5860507.html
Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Serge Wroclawski]

Indeed, and bringing this back from a meta-discussion to the practical
matters at hand- there are extremely good reasons for human readable
changeset comments, and good (and easy) ways to approach encouraging
them.

The reasons for them are clear- to facilitate the meta-mapping
operation- the idea that OSM is not merely a static collection of
data, but an ongoing dialog.

Activity related hashtags are great ways of capturing motivation for
editing, but do not capture intent.

So encouraging comments through examples (such as the wording in the
save dialog box) or by moving hashtags to their own tag seems like a
nice way of meeting that needs.


As for inclusivity- I agree entirely, and to be inclusive, I subscribe
to the "rising tide floats all boats" model. That is by focusing on
education and examples, by providing a positive community that
encourages good behavior as much as it discourages bad behavior, we
can get the change we need- if every OSM instruction includes a bit
about the importance of changeset comments, for example.

- Serge


On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 12:35 PM, Mikel Maron  wrote:
> While it's factually correct to say that you don't have to take part in the
> community to work with OSM, I seldom see that in practice. Missing Maps and
> HOT are deeply involved in the OSM community. When we do see this gap
> between the data and community anywhere in OSM, it's a great action to take
> on, to find ways to make our community welcoming and understandable to more
> mappers. We also need to recognize that OSM is a collection of communities,
> especially along linguistic lines, and that we need to work more to
> integrate in positive ways.
>
> -Mikel
>
> * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron
>
>
>
> On Thursday, November 19, 2015 11:44 AM, Simon Poole  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Am 19.11.2015 um 15:17 schrieb Paul Johnson:
>
> On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 7:54 AM, Simon Poole  wrote:
>
> This seems a bit of an odd time to announce a schism and I'm sure you didn't
> intend for your statement to come across as it just did.
>
> While rabid anti-OSMers are gaining more power and influence in HOT and MM,
>
>
> Not sure what MM is, but how can you be anti-OSM and be on the Humanitarian
> OSM Team?  Seems rather self-defeatist.
>
>
> MM == missingmaps, sorry.
>
> The point is that you can use OSM, the infrastructure and tools, as a
> convenient and free service for mapping without buying in to OSM the
> collaborative, community driven mapping project, the only thing which is
> really required is that you have to live with the licence as determined by
> the contributors. In the end not much different than if you were to buy such
> a service from ESRI.
>
> Now we don't really require buy in to OSM the project when people sign up,
> historically this has mainly caused issues with individuals and some times
> companies that have gone off on a tangent. But there is no doubt that a lot
> of things about OSM are "different", the rules, the structures (or rather
> the absence of them), how we technically do things and in the end getting
> community buy in to whatever you are doing, that are considered pesky
> annoyances and particularly a hindrance when you are on a mission to save
> the world.
>
> Simon
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Mikel Maron]

"On the other hand you can't deny that HOT is in some ways self defeatingsince 
it isolates lots of people from the whole of OSM and the nitty
grity parts."
Fully denied. There are many facets to OSM, we are all, I hope, working to 
provide ways to integrate them. 
 * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron 


On Thursday, November 19, 2015 12:10 PM, Simon Poole  wrote:
 
 

 
Am 19.11.2015 um 15:53 schrieb Blake Girardot:
> 
> It is a ridiculous statement on its face; obviously HOT does not
> succeed if OSM does not succeed.

I think we fully agree and if you recheck you will see that I said
essentially the same.

>
> As to the original issue Ramm raised:
>
> Most HOT folks who commented agreed the example changeset comments,
> while useful, could benefit from improvement (as could the vast
> majority changeset comments in OSM). Mikel has already opened an issue
> in github to improve them and the issue has already been brought to
> the people who manage HOT OSM Tasking Manager projects, how is that
> not working with and being responsive to the larger OSM community?

Again if you go back you will see that I couldn't quite believe that a
shism was really being declared because it doesn't make any sense.

On the other hand you can't deny that HOT is in some ways self defeating
since it isolates lots of people from the whole of OSM and the nitty
grity parts. Intentionally naturally, but it doesn't necessarily
actually help the humanitarian sectors understanding of what OSM is and
how it works.

>
> I think HOT's history demonstrates an eagerness (and outright need) to
> work with the OSM community at every opportunity (not mistake free of
> course).  But I can also personally point to at least 1 example where
> HOT has reached out to OSMF and the License WG and literally been
> ignored after repeated attempts to even discuss an issue.

I would be interested in a reference to that. We get a large number of
enquiries, ~ 200 this year to date, and occasionally stuff gets pushed
back, particularly if there is no good answer (naturally you would get
an answer pointing that out).

Simon

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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Nicolás Alvarez]

2015-11-19 7:54 GMT-03:00 Mikel Maron :
> ps For the Argentinian case, has anyone asked the local community there to
> reach out? I'm sure they would be able to help them get on the right track.

I am in the local community. It took us months to track down where
this flood of new users making single changes was coming from. We are
now making some progress in contacting the right people.

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Mikel Maron]

Hi friends
I'm mining a few actionable nuggets from this discussion.
* Document (or link to documentation) on how the OSMTM works in the wiki, 
including structure of changeset comments.* Update guidance to encourage 
mappers to add their own insights in changeset comments* Share more the 
downstream analysis of changeset comments, like http://osmgeoweek.org/metrics* 
Make the point person for an OSMTM visible and contactable for feedback.* 
Investigate potential use of other tags in the changeset
Created a GitHub ticket for working through ideas 
https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues/703
Mikel
ps For the Argentinian case, has anyone asked the local community there to 
reach out? I'm sure they would be able to help them get on the right track. * 
Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron 


On Thursday, November 19, 2015 3:43 AM, Michael Reichert  
wrote:
 
 

 Hi,



Am 19. November 2015 01:52:40 MEZ, schrieb john whelan :
> HOT and OSM are slightly different, HOT maps on OSM but uses a simpler
> more
> standardized approach.  

HOT uses the OSM database/platform and therefore it has to adapt and follow 
OSM's rules. Nobody forces you to use OSM. Why don't you do something like 
OpenHistoricalMap and use your own database basrd on OSM software?

> HOT tends to map in areas that do not have a great deal of OSM mapping
> already in place so I don't see that it really matters if they use
> preset
> comments from the tile system.  The HOT comment gives you the task and
> tile
> number so you can look up on the tile system where it is and also what
> has
> been asked for.

A mapper should be able to get an idea what has been edited at a given 
changeset without decrypting the changeset comment using an external service 
(HOT tasking manager in this case). Who guarantees that HOT tasking manager 
will still be online in 5 or 10 years?

Best regards

Michael
-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 11/19/2015 11:16 AM, Ben Abelshausen wrote:
> You can go the tasking manager and see exactly what the goal of the
> mapping activity was, who is the admin that created the task and who
> validates, what mappers contributed and so on.

I doubt that most OSMers would even know which tasking manager to go to
without first googling for it. And will the same tasking manager and the
same task ID still be there in a few years' time? Are the operators of
the tasking manager giving a promise to keep an archive about their
completed tasks available for as long as OSM exists so that people can
later find out what the mapping activity was supposed to be?

> That doesn't mean things couldn't be better. Maybe moving some
> information to the changeset tags may be a solution, the id of the task
> for example, and the tile or some description in the comment.

I'd certainly say so. Maybe this is not something that can be done
tomorrow as some processes, software, or even teaching material would
have to be adapted, but I'd certainly prefer a changeset description
that does not depend on external resources for resolving.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Wed, 18 Nov 2015 19:52:40 -0500
john whelan  wrote:

> HOT and OSM are slightly different, HOT maps on OSM but uses a
> simpler more standardized approach.  Many of their volunteers often
> do not know enough English to write a meaningful change set comment.

In that case somebody is editing OSM. Doing it for HOT related-purposes
does not mean that it has special rights.

In that case "HOT and OSM are slightly different" is meaningless and
not relevant - it is OSM.

> HOT tends to map in areas that do not have a great deal of OSM mapping
> already in place so I don't see that it really matters if they use
> preset comments from the tile system.

Again - it is edit in OSM. Imports, remote mapping, including remote
mapping for HOT purposes have no special rights. If anything armchair
and automated mapping must be more careful.

Claiming that empty/useless changeset comments are OK is absurd and
arrogant.

> Or are we now asking that all mappers on OSM have to be able to read
> and write in English since that is the normal language for
> communication in OSM or is one of the local African languages
> sufficient.

In that case complaint was clearly about content - or to be more
precise lack of it. Using local language is perfectly OK.

> On 18 November 2015 at 19:11, Frederik Ramm 
> wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> >I would like to draw everyone's attention to a long-standing
> > community recommendation:
> >
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_changeset_comments
> >
> > It explains why you should use sensible changeset comments that
> > describe what you (think you) have been doing.
> >
> > I don't know exactly who encourages this, but I am seeing lots of
> > changesets with comments like this:
> >
> > #MissingMaps #hotosm-project-12345 Lubumbashi, Congo (DRC)
> > #100mapathons #OSMGeoWeek
> >
> > This is *not* useful. First of all, we're not Twitter; we don't
> > evaluate these hashtags. I don't know if there are some downstream
> > services that do, but if so, please switch to using a secondary tag
> > (remember, changesets, like other OSM objects, can have any number
> > of tags).
> >
> > As a reader of the edit history of a place, I am interested in
> > someone writing that they have traced buildings or drawn roads or
> > done whatever. I'm not so much interested in (what I perceive as)
> > vanity hashtags, they don't help me understand what the person did.
> >
> > I mean look at this:
> >
> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/history#map=6/8.418/43.923
> >
> > It's really a caricature of what changeset comments were meant to
> > be.
> >
> > Can it be fixed somehow, or have we permanently moved from changeset
> > comments being aimed at your fellow human mappers to changeset
> > comments being auto-generated for consumption by some software that
> > makes sense of them?
> >
> > Bye
> > Frederik
> >
> > --
> > Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09"
> > E008°23'33"
> >
> > ___
> > talk mailing list
> > talk@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >


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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Andy Townsend]

On 19/11/2015 10:16, Ben Abelshausen wrote:


You can go the tasking manager and see exactly what the goal of the 
mapping activity was, who is the admin that created the task and who 
validates, what mappers contributed and so on.


Can you please explain where any of that is documented within 
OpenStreetMap?  As an example, I recently came across this:


https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/381043577

It's a building that is a closed way, but only just.  How can I offer to 
help that mapper do what they are trying to do better?  All the 
changeset comment says is "#MissingMaps #hotosm-project-1254 Lubumbashi, 
Congo (DRC) #100mapathons #OSMGeoWeek " - to me the only useful 
information in there is "Lubumbashi, Congo (DRC)", which I already know 
since that is exactly where this edit is.


More importantly, how do I contact the person who told this new mapper 
that "#MissingMaps #hotosm-project-1254 Lubumbashi, Congo (DRC) 
#100mapathons #OSMGeoWeek" was a suitable changeset comment, to explain 
to them what we use changeset comments for and what makes a good one?  
If I can talk to them, I can probably help them help other new users 
too, and not just with stuff about changeset comments - as an OSM mapper 
think of all the "how to interpret imagery" latent knowledge that you 
have simply by being able to compare a place you visited with the 
imagery of that place.


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Nicolás Alvarez]

> El 19 nov 2015, a las 07:16, Ben Abelshausen  
> escribió:
> 
> These changesets are way more useful than most.
> 
> You can go the tasking manager and see exactly what the goal of the mapping 
> activity was, who is the admin that created the task and who validates, what 
> mappers contributed and so on.
> 
> That doesn't mean things couldn't be better. Maybe moving some information to 
> the changeset tags may be a solution, the id of the task for example, and the 
> tile or some description in the comment.

That is very useful information to have **in addition** to a normal changeset 
comment. 

Did you trace roads from imagery, or improve the geometry of an existing road 
and fix the highway= classification as a tile validation step? Did you add 
houses and schools? Is there anything you added where you aren't confident you 
interpreted the satellite imagery right, and someone doing validation should 
pay special attention to?

Here is one of mine from a HOT task: "Finish tracing road, add classification 
to it and some others nearby, trace storage tanks."

In fact, while I usually write descriptive changeset comments, I just took a 
look at my change history and came out thinking I should be (and should have 
been) even *more* verbose. Maybe it's because lately I have been working more 
on software code, where you can sometimes see a three-paragraph commit message 
explaining a 2-line code change...

-- 
Nicolás
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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[malenki]

On Wed, 18 Nov 2015 19:52:40 -0500,
john whelan wrote:

> HOT and OSM are slightly different, HOT maps on OSM but uses a
> simpler more standardized approach.  

fwiw: HOT means Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team.
For me this sounds a lot like "very close to OSM".

> Many of their volunteers ofte  do not know enough English to write a
> meaningful change set comment.

So let them do it in their native language. Ideally, in the future
there will be more local mappers which should speak the same language

> HOT tends to map in areas that do not have a great deal of OSM mapping
> already in place so I don't see that it really matters if they use
> preset comments from the tile system.

What does it matter if there is already a lot or little of data to
changeset comments? As I said above: individual comments should help
individual mappers later on.

> Or are we now asking that all mappers on OSM have to be able to read
> and write in English since that is the normal language for
> communication in OSM or is one of the local African languages
> sufficient. 

Any language is sufficient, preferredly one spoken in the region where
the mapping occurs.

> If it is then I assure you I won't be able to understand
> what it says.

As it was pointed out: there are online translating tools.
Additionally: do you need to understand all changeset comments in OSM?
In China, Japan and Russia, too? :)

> I think one thing I like about HOT is the validation process, an
> experienced mapper goes over the mapping and tries to eliminate as
> many errors or mis-tags as possible and ensure that everything
> visible in the image is mapped,

Well, when I think of the HOT data I often look at it seems mostly I am
the (only) one doing the bug fixing and validating if I have some time
I can spend on it.
An example:
Lately in Afghanistan HOT didn't ask for waterways being mapped which
resulted in various issues:
Bridges weren't mapped because they are hard to distinguish in that
region when you don't look for waterways too – and bridges are prone to
collapse during earth quakes.
Fords aren't mapped for the same reason.
Quite some of the intermittent waterways get incorrectly mapped as
highways. Sure, there /are/ waterways being used as highways, but not
the ones I reviewed.

Because of this and some more issues (tons of highway=road, highways
connected to residential areas, a bad import from ~2010) I decided to
skip assigning to tasks but instead first map complete waterways and
afterwards all waterway/highway intersections. I also fixed the other
issues mentioned.
Well, I got a bit offtopic.

Two of the problems are that there is
a) a lack of enough manpower to map (e.g. there is still a lot missing
in HOT's Afghanistan Tasks)
b) a lack of enough manpower to review

An other example was a training of mappers in Albania.
The result was partly quite messy: a bunch of ways being not
rectangular nor having tags on them (well, some with area=yes).
There was no cleanup several weeks after editing stopped. I wonder what
the training effect is when the data gets left in this state
I had problems finding the person responsible for this task. Regarding
his OSM edits history he seemed not more experienced in mapping than his
pupils.

> and yes I understand armchair mappers are looked down on by many
> mappers

Is that so?
I do map both ways a lot and being a good "armchair mapper" needs
skills which need to be trained, too.
By the way, 99% my mapping (!= collecting data/surveying) is done in
an armchair. :)

> but the work they do is valuable in many areas.

Of course.

Regards,
Thomas



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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Blake Girardot]

On 11/19/2015 3:58 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:


Of course you are also right when you say that HOT instructions do
sometimes clash with our usual quality expectations (I remember a recent
discussion about tagging "village greens" so that these can be
interpreted as helicopter landing sites or so). I think we were mostly
ok with this at the time when Haiti disaster mappers used
leisure=camping_ground to make refugee camps appear on the standard map;
such "crypto tagging" must, of course, remain an emergency measure and
not something we do regularly because it is easier.


This is another example where HOT took this advice about leisure=commons 
as well as aeroway=helipad and immediately modified how it asked 
contributors to tag things, clarified what should be tagged 
leisure=commons and aeroway=helipad and went through and reviewed every 
item that was tagged that way in Nepal (the context of the discussion at 
the time) and either revised how it was tagged or removed what we agreed 
was probably questionably tagged.


We also actively avoid making claims of "emergency measures" for tagging 
(or anything mapping related really), local context for tagging meanings 
is different, but we have been making efforts to always make sure our 
tagging fits the spirit of OSM tags we use and where that is not 
possible, try and develop consistent useful tags that do meet our needs 
and are maintainable. Admittedly sometimes that is a bit ad hoc.


Anyway, as I have said, we always want to work with the OSM community to 
either use the tags in a way that everyone understands and accepts or 
develop tags for things that are appropriate for OSM. Can we do better? 
For sure. Are we trying to do better and have we improved? Also for sure.


Thank you for bringing these things up Frederik, it helps HOT and OSM.

cheers,
Blake



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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Blake Girardot]

On 11/19/2015 4:02 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

Blake Girardot wrote:

As to the original issue Ramm raised:


Frederik's first name is Frederik. It's not that uncommon. :) Please can we
avoid this becoming _really_ unnecessarily confrontational by calling people
by their surnames in a sort of English public school style ("go it,
molesworth, show them wot yore made of").

Richard


Thats true, I apologize. I was going to be formal and then couldn't 
decide if I should use Mr. or Herr and ended up using neither.


Either way, I apologize, I should have said Frederik.

Regards,
Blake




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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Christoph Hormann]

On Thursday 19 November 2015, Kate Chapman wrote:
> >
> > And if on http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/1300 i read:
> >
> > "Please draw one large area outline around groups of buildings and
> > tag them landuse=residential"
> >
> > that is in violation of one of the core principles of OSM, namely
> > to map reality, what's on the ground.  It instructs mappers to map
> > something that does not exist in reality based on abstract
> > geometric considerations and to give it a tag that is meant for
> > something different.
> >
> > Referring to
>
>  landuse=residential is a globally used tag, so you can hardly call
> out HOT for using it.

Is it really so difficult to understand that the cited instructions are 
wrong and lead to bogus mapping like here:

http://mc.bbbike.org/mc/?lon=70.356396=37.310341=14=2=mapbox-satellite=mapnik

This might look plausible to someone from Europe or North America but 
the truth is in terms of mapping reality this is not even inaccurate, 
it is pure garbage as far as landuse mapping is concerned.  The actual 
area that would truely qualify as landuse=residential is likely only 
about 5-10 percent of what is mapped here - if at all, in many cases 
the criterion 'predominantly residential' is likely not met and 
landuse=farmyard would be more accurate.

And to address Richard/Frederik: This is not the same as early mapping 
in Europe, here we have a settlement structure which is fundamentally 
different from that of rural Afghanistan.  You can not reliably 
identify any of these settlements on Landsat imagery.  The coarse 
landuse drawing is merely extrapolated from the presence of buildings 
and is not connected to actually observable landuse on any scale.

But there is no sense in getting lost in this particular example - it is 
just that, an example.  So i repeat my suggestion to improve QA of the 
mapping instructions and allowing the OSM community to effectively 
correct mistakes there.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-11-19 15:30 GMT+01:00 Kate Chapman :

>
>> "Please draw one large area outline around groups of buildings and tag
>> them landuse=residential"
>>
>> that is in violation of one of the core principles of OSM, namely to map
>> reality, what's on the ground.  It instructs mappers to map something
>> that does not exist in reality based on abstract geometric
>> considerations and to give it a tag that is meant for something
>> different.
>>
>> Referring to
>>
>
>  landuse=residential is a globally used tag, so you can hardly call out
> HOT for using it.
>
> http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/landuse=residential#map
>


it is not a tag for groups of buildings though, it is a tag for residential
landuse.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Tom Taylor]

On 19/11/2015 5:31 AM, Andy Townsend wrote:

On 19/11/2015 10:16, Ben Abelshausen wrote:


You can go the tasking manager and see exactly what the goal of the
mapping activity was, who is the admin that created the task and who
validates, what mappers contributed and so on.


Can you please explain where any of that is documented within
OpenStreetMap?  As an example, I recently came across this:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/381043577

It's a building that is a closed way, but only just.  How can I offer to
help that mapper do what they are trying to do better?  All the
changeset comment says is "#MissingMaps #hotosm-project-1254 Lubumbashi,
Congo (DRC) #100mapathons #OSMGeoWeek " - to me the only useful
information in there is "Lubumbashi, Congo (DRC)", which I already know
since that is exactly where this edit is.

More importantly, how do I contact the person who told this new mapper
that "#MissingMaps #hotosm-project-1254 Lubumbashi, Congo (DRC)
#100mapathons #OSMGeoWeek" was a suitable changeset comment, to explain
to them what we use changeset comments for and what makes a good one? If
I can talk to them, I can probably help them help other new users too,
and not just with stuff about changeset comments - as an OSM mapper
think of all the "how to interpret imagery" latent knowledge that you
have simply by being able to compare a place you visited with the
imagery of that place.

Cheers,

Andy


...
Blake Girardot has written a template for HOT coordinators to use when 
putting together the instructions for their project. Anyhing this 
community agrees on regarding changeset comments should go into that 
template document. I will note the issue at next Monday's HOT Training 
Working Group meeting.


BTW the HOT Training WGF has been tasked with updating LerarnOSM, for 
the general OSM community as well as HOT. The work is going a bit slowly 
-- a matter of personal circumstances of the people involved, but it is 
proceeding.


Tom Taylor
Chair, HOT Training WG

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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Richard Fairhurst]

Christoph Hormann wrote:
> And if on http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/1300 i read:
>
> "Please draw one large area outline around groups of buildings 
> and tag them landuse=residential"
>
> that is in violation of one of the core principles of OSM, namely 
> to map reality, what's on the ground.

The core principle you're looking for is that OSM is iterative. We iterate
towards completion. Start simple, become detailed.

Back in the day, we used big swathes of landuse= to mark residential areas,
and abutters= to indicate shops beside roads. You and I are fortunate enough
to live in OSM-rich countries where all the important stuff has now been
mapped and people can concentrate on unimportant fripperies like building
outlines and addresses. By definition, HOT activities aren't in such
countries.

It's absolutely reasonable to start with approximations and replace them
over time - that's what we were doing in the UK when the map was at a
similar state of development to these places. Call it a Minimum Viable Map.

Let's have a bit less judgement, and a bit more helping newbie mappers (and
their organisers, who may not have as long-standing an OSM background as
you) to do things well.

Richard




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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Kate Chapman]

Can you explain to me what a "rapid anti-OSMer" is? I can only assume that
is someone that prefers to use proprietary mapslikely a contributor to
Google Mapmaker. Anyone who takes the time to get a OSM user account,
contributes data, runs a mapping event or otherwise introduces people to
OSM can hardly be considered anti-OSM. I think sometimes Missing Maps and
HOT are singled out because it is easy to figure out what they are doing
since much of the conversation seen is in English. Plenty of communities
around the world have different views and ways of contributing to the
project. Those stories don't always come out though and those groups aren't
usually vocal on the osm-talk mailing list.

On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 5:54 AM, Simon Poole  wrote:

> This seems a bit of an odd time to announce a schism and I'm sure you
> didn't intend for your statement to come across as it just did.
>
> While rabid anti-OSMers are gaining more power and influence in HOT and
> MM, I do assume that the majority of the HOT and MM communities are not
> falling in to the trap of believing their own marketing copy and realize
> that they are a small minority in the larger OSM community and are
> dependent on the good will and support of the wider OSM community to make a
> difference.
>
> Simon
>
>
> Am 19.11.2015 um 14:28 schrieb Kate Chapman:
>
> Hi Christoph,
>
> The flaw with this logic is that people in HOT are not participating in
> the OSM community. Is the OSM community to remain static and "conventions"
> made years ago may never change? Do we not have the same goal of a free map
> of the entire world?
>
> -Kate
>
> On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 1:44 AM, Christoph Hormann <
> chris_horm...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday 19 November 2015, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>> >
>> > #MissingMaps #hotosm-project-12345 Lubumbashi, Congo (DRC)
>> > #100mapathons #OSMGeoWeek
>> >
>> > This is *not* useful.
>>
>> But to be fair this is not only the fault of the mappers but also of the
>> HOT project managers since they specifically instruct mappers to use
>> such changeset comments.
>>
>> Generally the HOT project mapping instructions contain a lot of things
>> that are questionable from the viewpoint of the OSM community.  IMO HOT
>> needs to make sure these comply with the OSM conventions, for example
>> by sourcing these instructions from the OSM wiki and allowing the OSM
>> community to provide input and fixes this way.
>>
>> --
>> Christoph Hormann
>> http://www.imagico.de/
>>
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>>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Blake Girardot]

On 11/19/2015 2:54 PM, Simon Poole wrote:

This seems a bit of an odd time to announce a schism and I'm sure you
didn't intend for your statement to come across as it just did.

While rabid anti-OSMers are gaining more power and influence in HOT and
MM, I do assume that the majority of the HOT and MM communities are not
falling in to the trap of believing their own marketing copy and realize
that they are a small minority in the larger OSM community and are
dependent on the good will and support of the wider OSM community to
make a difference.


Simon,

As I asked you yesterday in HOT's irc channel that you frequent, where, 
please any one example, where does HOT say it is anything other than a 
part of the world wide OSM community?


Also, I would love to see any evidence of "rabid anit-OSMers" in HOT. 
Please, again, you make these claims, I would love to see ANY evidence 
of it.


For the record, HOT typically promotes OSM, not HOT, but OSM at every 
opportunity because OSM is the amazing technology, ideology and 
community that make HOT's work possible. For that promotion I can 
provide evidence, because I have personally promoted _OSM_ to many 
international bodies and NGO's.


In addition, you will notice that we spend a great deal of time, money 
and effort building local _OSM_ communities around the world, _not_ HOT 
communities.


It is a ridiculous statement on its face; obviously HOT does not succeed 
if OSM does not succeed.


As to the original issue Ramm raised:

Most HOT folks who commented agreed the example changeset comments, 
while useful, could benefit from improvement (as could the vast majority 
changeset comments in OSM). Mikel has already opened an issue in github 
to improve them and the issue has already been brought to the people who 
manage HOT OSM Tasking Manager projects, how is that not working with 
and being responsive to the larger OSM community?


I think HOT's history demonstrates an eagerness (and outright need) to 
work with the OSM community at every opportunity (not mistake free of 
course).  But I can also personally point to at least 1 example where 
HOT has reached out to OSMF and the License WG and literally been 
ignored after repeated attempts to even discuss an issue.


I don't mind constructive criticism and dialog and really want a lot 
more of it, but what I do object to are baseless attacks and accusations 
(e.g., "rabid anti-OSMers"). If you have some examples of this or 
HOT/Missing Maps (MM) marketing hype that in any way is disparaging of 
OSM or says it is somehow better than or invented OSM, please come out 
with them or stop making these statements.


I will assume that Ramm's original goal of his email was to improve 
changeset comments and that is what is coming of it, seems like we 
should all be happy and could move on and maybe follow up on it after 
HOT has had a chance to address it.


Cheers,
Blake
VP HOT

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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Mikel Maron]

This is confusion. Kate was challenging that notion and was saying that HOT is 
definitely part of the OSM community, and OSM encompassed a lot of methods. No 
one I've seen in HOT or OSM is anti OSM, that's just wrong.
We're all hear to create the best open map ever. Maybe we can focus on how to 
do that.

Mikel * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron 


On Thursday, November 19, 2015 8:57 AM, Simon Poole  wrote:
 
 

  This seems a bit of an odd time to announce a schism and I'm sure you didn't 
intend for your statement to come across as it just did. 
 
 While rabid anti-OSMers are gaining more power and influence in HOT and MM, I 
do assume that the majority of the HOT and MM communities are not falling in to 
the trap of believing their own marketing copy and realize that they are a 
small minority in the larger OSM community and are dependent on the good will 
and support of the wider OSM community to make a difference.
 
 Simon
 
 Am 19.11.2015 um 14:28 schrieb Kate Chapman:
  
 Hi Christoph, 
  The flaw with this logic is that people in HOT are not participating in the 
OSM community. Is the OSM community to remain static and "conventions" made 
years ago may never change? Do we not have the same goal of a free map of the 
entire world? 
  -Kate  
 On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 1:44 AM, Christoph Hormann  
wrote:
 
On Thursday 19 November 2015, Frederik Ramm wrote:
 >
 > #MissingMaps #hotosm-project-12345 Lubumbashi, Congo (DRC)
 > #100mapathons #OSMGeoWeek
 >
 > This is *not* useful.
 
 But to be fair this is not only the fault of the mappers but also of the
 HOT project managers since they specifically instruct mappers to use
 such changeset comments.
 
 Generally the HOT project mapping instructions contain a lot of things
 that are questionable from the viewpoint of the OSM community.  IMO HOT
 needs to make sure these comply with the OSM conventions, for example
 by sourcing these instructions from the OSM wiki and allowing the OSM
 community to provide input and fixes this way.
 
 --
 Christoph Hormann
 http://www.imagico.de/
   
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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Frederik Ramm]

Christoph,

On 11/19/2015 03:14 PM, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> And if on http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/1300 i read:
> "Please draw one large area outline around groups of buildings and tag 
> them landuse=residential"

[...]

To be fair, that's exactly what *I* did in the early days when only
Landsat imagery was available ;)

I'm ok with cutting under-mapped areas some slack and not expecting them
to apply the same standards as countries that have been mapped for 10
years.

Of course you are also right when you say that HOT instructions do
sometimes clash with our usual quality expectations (I remember a recent
discussion about tagging "village greens" so that these can be
interpreted as helicopter landing sites or so). I think we were mostly
ok with this at the time when Haiti disaster mappers used
leisure=camping_ground to make refugee camps appear on the standard map;
such "crypto tagging" must, of course, remain an emergency measure and
not something we do regularly because it is easier.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Richard Fairhurst]

Blake Girardot wrote:
> As to the original issue Ramm raised:

Frederik's first name is Frederik. It's not that uncommon. :) Please can we
avoid this becoming _really_ unnecessarily confrontational by calling people
by their surnames in a sort of English public school style ("go it,
molesworth, show them wot yore made of").

Richard




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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Simon Poole]

Am 19.11.2015 um 15:17 schrieb Paul Johnson:
> On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 7:54 AM, Simon Poole  > wrote:
>
> This seems a bit of an odd time to announce a schism and I'm sure
> you didn't intend for your statement to come across as it just did.
>
> While rabid anti-OSMers are gaining more power and influence in
> HOT and MM,
>
>
> Not sure what MM is, but how can you be anti-OSM and be on the
> Humanitarian OSM Team?  Seems rather self-defeatist.

MM == missingmaps, sorry.

The point is that you can use OSM, the infrastructure and tools, as a
convenient and free service for mapping without buying in to OSM the
collaborative, community driven mapping project, the only thing which is
really required is that you have to live with the licence as determined
by the contributors. In the end not much different than if you were to
buy such a service from ESRI.

Now we don't really require buy in to OSM the project when people sign
up, historically this has mainly caused issues with individuals and some
times companies that have gone off on a tangent. But there is no doubt
that a lot of things about OSM are "different", the rules, the
structures (or rather the absence of them), how we technically do things
and in the end getting community buy in to whatever you are doing, that
are considered pesky annoyances and particularly a hindrance when you
are on a mission to save the world.

Simon




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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Mikel Maron]

While it's factually correct to say that you don't have to take part in the 
community to work with OSM, I seldom see that in practice. Missing Maps and HOT 
are deeply involved in the OSM community. When we do see this gap between the 
data and community anywhere in OSM, it's a great action to take on, to find 
ways to make our community welcoming and understandable to more mappers. We 
also need to recognize that OSM is a collection of communities, especially 
along linguistic lines, and that we need to work more to integrate in positive 
ways.
-Mikel * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron 


On Thursday, November 19, 2015 11:44 AM, Simon Poole  wrote:
 
 

  
 
 Am 19.11.2015 um 15:17 schrieb Paul Johnson:
  
   On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 7:54 AM, Simon Poole  wrote:
 
  This seems a bit of an odd time to announce a schism and I'm sure you didn't 
intend for your statement to come across as it just did.  
 
 While rabid anti-OSMers are gaining more power and influence in HOT and MM, 
 
  Not sure what MM is, but how can you be anti-OSM and be on the Humanitarian 
OSM Team?  Seems rather self-defeatist.
 
 MM == missingmaps, sorry.
 
 The point is that you can use OSM, the infrastructure and tools, as a 
convenient and free service for mapping without buying in to OSM the 
collaborative, community driven mapping project, the only thing which is really 
required is that you have to live with the licence as determined by the 
contributors. In the end not much different than if you were to buy such a 
service from ESRI. 
 
 Now we don't really require buy in to OSM the project when people sign up, 
historically this has mainly caused issues with individuals and some times 
companies that have gone off on a tangent. But there is no doubt that a lot of 
things about OSM are "different", the rules, the structures (or rather the 
absence of them), how we technically do things and in the end getting community 
buy in to whatever you are doing, that are considered pesky annoyances and 
particularly a hindrance when you are on a mission to save the world. 
 
 Simon 
 
 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Simon Poole]

Am 19.11.2015 um 15:53 schrieb Blake Girardot:
> 
> It is a ridiculous statement on its face; obviously HOT does not
> succeed if OSM does not succeed.

I think we fully agree and if you recheck you will see that I said
essentially the same.

>
> As to the original issue Ramm raised:
>
> Most HOT folks who commented agreed the example changeset comments,
> while useful, could benefit from improvement (as could the vast
> majority changeset comments in OSM). Mikel has already opened an issue
> in github to improve them and the issue has already been brought to
> the people who manage HOT OSM Tasking Manager projects, how is that
> not working with and being responsive to the larger OSM community?

Again if you go back you will see that I couldn't quite believe that a
shism was really being declared because it doesn't make any sense.

On the other hand you can't deny that HOT is in some ways self defeating
since it isolates lots of people from the whole of OSM and the nitty
grity parts. Intentionally naturally, but it doesn't necessarily
actually help the humanitarian sectors understanding of what OSM is and
how it works.

>
> I think HOT's history demonstrates an eagerness (and outright need) to
> work with the OSM community at every opportunity (not mistake free of
> course).  But I can also personally point to at least 1 example where
> HOT has reached out to OSMF and the License WG and literally been
> ignored after repeated attempts to even discuss an issue.

I would be interested in a reference to that. We get a large number of
enquiries, ~ 200 this year to date, and occasionally stuff gets pushed
back, particularly if there is no good answer (naturally you would get
an answer pointing that out).

Simon



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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Kate Chapman]

Hi Christoph,

The flaw with this logic is that people in HOT are not participating in the
OSM community. Is the OSM community to remain static and "conventions" made
years ago may never change? Do we not have the same goal of a free map of
the entire world?

-Kate

On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 1:44 AM, Christoph Hormann 
wrote:

> On Thursday 19 November 2015, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> >
> > #MissingMaps #hotosm-project-12345 Lubumbashi, Congo (DRC)
> > #100mapathons #OSMGeoWeek
> >
> > This is *not* useful.
>
> But to be fair this is not only the fault of the mappers but also of the
> HOT project managers since they specifically instruct mappers to use
> such changeset comments.
>
> Generally the HOT project mapping instructions contain a lot of things
> that are questionable from the viewpoint of the OSM community.  IMO HOT
> needs to make sure these comply with the OSM conventions, for example
> by sourcing these instructions from the OSM wiki and allowing the OSM
> community to provide input and fixes this way.
>
> --
> Christoph Hormann
> http://www.imagico.de/
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 11/19/2015 02:28 PM, Kate Chapman wrote:
> The flaw with this logic is that people in HOT are not participating in
> the OSM community. 

Perhaps that is the bit that needs working on. One would certainly
assume that an organisation that derives a large part of its raison
d'etre (not to mention the name and the technology used) from OSM would
somehow be in touch and not live in a parallel universe?

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Simon Poole]

This seems a bit of an odd time to announce a schism and I'm sure you
didn't intend for your statement to come across as it just did.

While rabid anti-OSMers are gaining more power and influence in HOT and
MM, I do assume that the majority of the HOT and MM communities are not
falling in to the trap of believing their own marketing copy and realize
that they are a small minority in the larger OSM community and are
dependent on the good will and support of the wider OSM community to
make a difference.

Simon

Am 19.11.2015 um 14:28 schrieb Kate Chapman:
> Hi Christoph,
>
> The flaw with this logic is that people in HOT are not participating
> in the OSM community. Is the OSM community to remain static and
> "conventions" made years ago may never change? Do we not have the same
> goal of a free map of the entire world?
>
> -Kate
>
> On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 1:44 AM, Christoph Hormann
> > wrote:
>
> On Thursday 19 November 2015, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> >
> > #MissingMaps #hotosm-project-12345 Lubumbashi, Congo (DRC)
> > #100mapathons #OSMGeoWeek
> >
> > This is *not* useful.
>
> But to be fair this is not only the fault of the mappers but also
> of the
> HOT project managers since they specifically instruct mappers to use
> such changeset comments.
>
> Generally the HOT project mapping instructions contain a lot of things
> that are questionable from the viewpoint of the OSM community. 
> IMO HOT
> needs to make sure these comply with the OSM conventions, for example
> by sourcing these instructions from the OSM wiki and allowing the OSM
> community to provide input and fixes this way.
>
> --
> Christoph Hormann
> http://www.imagico.de/
>
> ___
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>
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Christoph Hormann]

On Thursday 19 November 2015, Kate Chapman wrote:
> Is the OSM community to remain static and
> "conventions" made years ago may never change?

No, but meaningful changeset comments as per 

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_changeset_comments

is certainly a convention broadly supported by the OSM community right 
now.  The fact that it has not changed much recently just means it is a 
successful principle with broad support as it is.

And if on http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/1300 i read:

"Please draw one large area outline around groups of buildings and tag 
them landuse=residential"

that is in violation of one of the core principles of OSM, namely to map 
reality, what's on the ground.  It instructs mappers to map something 
that does not exist in reality based on abstract geometric 
considerations and to give it a tag that is meant for something 
different.

Referring to 

> Do we not have the same goal of a free map of the entire world?

if instructions like the above indeed describe the aims of HOT for 
mapping its vision of a free map of the entire world is indeed very 
different from mine.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Paul Johnson]

On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 7:54 AM, Simon Poole  wrote:

> This seems a bit of an odd time to announce a schism and I'm sure you
> didn't intend for your statement to come across as it just did.
>
> While rabid anti-OSMers are gaining more power and influence in HOT and MM,
>

Not sure what MM is, but how can you be anti-OSM and be on the Humanitarian
OSM Team?  Seems rather self-defeatist.
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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

On 11/19/15, Simon Poole  wrote:
> While rabid anti-OSMers are gaining more power and influence in HOT and
> MM, [...]

This bit is new to me. Care to explain who these anti-OSMers are, what
their agenda is, and how they are using HOT and Missing Maps to
further their agenda? (I've talked with someone from the French OSM
community who says they're not enthusiastic about Missing Maps, but
I'm not sure if this is related to these alleged anti-OSMers.)

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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Kate Chapman]

On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 6:14 AM, Christoph Hormann 
wrote:

> On Thursday 19 November 2015, Kate Chapman wrote:
>
>
> And if on http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/1300 i read:
>
> "Please draw one large area outline around groups of buildings and tag
> them landuse=residential"
>
> that is in violation of one of the core principles of OSM, namely to map
> reality, what's on the ground.  It instructs mappers to map something
> that does not exist in reality based on abstract geometric
> considerations and to give it a tag that is meant for something
> different.
>
> Referring to
>

 landuse=residential is a globally used tag, so you can hardly call out HOT
for using it.

http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/landuse=residential#map



>
> > Do we not have the same goal of a free map of the entire world?
>
> if instructions like the above indeed describe the aims of HOT for
> mapping its vision of a free map of the entire world is indeed very
> different from mine.
>
> --
> Christoph Hormann
> http://www.imagico.de/
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Joseph Reeves]

Hi Frederik,

I have a more fundamental question based on the assumption that jobs in the
HOT Tasking Manager occupy a small part of the real physical world: Why
does it matter what the changeset comments in this area is? If everyone
mapping a city in Nigeria, such as in task
http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/1335, uses a comment to reflect this, how
does this bother people mapping outside that area?

If people, for some reason, map outside of this city using the same
changeset, you might notice it in your local area, but thanks to the
comment you'll be bale to understand what the problem was.

You say that you find these comments "not useful", but can you expand?
Could you please let me know what useful things I could be spending my time
on?

Thanks, Joseph




On 19 November 2015 at 00:11, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
>I would like to draw everyone's attention to a long-standing
> community recommendation:
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_changeset_comments
>
> It explains why you should use sensible changeset comments that describe
> what you (think you) have been doing.
>
> I don't know exactly who encourages this, but I am seeing lots of
> changesets with comments like this:
>
> #MissingMaps #hotosm-project-12345 Lubumbashi, Congo (DRC) #100mapathons
> #OSMGeoWeek
>
> This is *not* useful. First of all, we're not Twitter; we don't evaluate
> these hashtags. I don't know if there are some downstream services that
> do, but if so, please switch to using a secondary tag (remember,
> changesets, like other OSM objects, can have any number of tags).
>
> As a reader of the edit history of a place, I am interested in someone
> writing that they have traced buildings or drawn roads or done whatever.
> I'm not so much interested in (what I perceive as) vanity hashtags, they
> don't help me understand what the person did.
>
> I mean look at this:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/history#map=6/8.418/43.923
>
> It's really a caricature of what changeset comments were meant to be.
>
> Can it be fixed somehow, or have we permanently moved from changeset
> comments being aimed at your fellow human mappers to changeset comments
> being auto-generated for consumption by some software that makes sense
> of them?
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Jóhannes Birgir Jensson]

Þann 19.11.2015 14:14, Christoph Hormann reit:


And if on http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/1300 i read:

"Please draw one large area outline around groups of buildings and tag
them landuse=residential"

that is in violation of one of the core principles of OSM, namely to 
map

reality, what's on the ground.  It instructs mappers to map something
that does not exist in reality based on abstract geometric
considerations and to give it a tag that is meant for something
different.


What do you mean Cristoph? This is a long held convention to mark out 
residential areas. It also makes it easier to find areas which need more 
mapping at a later date. I've personally used this before in Botswana, 
unrelated to HOT.


HOT is a subset of contributors to OSM and are producing valueable data 
in areas which usually have nothing comparable. The antagonism visible 
here is astonishing.


The comments are still optional, they are not a rule as some have 
wrongfully declared. The most notable part in the antagonist comments 
were "I me myself and I" types, where YOU did not like to X and Y.


The contents of changesets can still be discerned, looking at one of the 
changesets whose comments Mr. Ramm was aghast over, the OSM website 
tells us what it contained:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35429575

Here we see ways added included a water and lots of roads, plus two 
relations which were wood. Nothing complicated used here to ascertain 
what the changeset did.


This sort of pent up anger over nothing is self-defeating. I watch over 
changesets in 3 countries with daily activity (even if not thousands 
each day), if it is a new name mapping I will take a look at what was 
done. If it looks like a competent mapper I'll probably not bother more 
in overlooking their changesets. On occasions I do find mappers that are 
testing (a complete race track in the highlands of Iceland was a notable 
example), I fix the error introduced and friendly advice them on how to 
proceed.


Depending on changeset comments as a Vital Cog In Operation Of 
OpenStreetMap is futile when we have the actual data of what was done 
already visible and prominent. They are a nice feature, can be helpful 
but I will be checking a changeset from a new user regardless of the 
comment, that racetrack had a no comment or "added a road" on it if I 
recall.


Yes please use a good changeset comment if you can. No it is not a rule. 
Stop trying to make trouble because of a comment you don't like.


--Stalfur

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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Heather Leson]

Good day fellow OSMers,

I have read this thread with great interest. There are some productive
solutions such as training and technical changes. Thank you. Every day
someone joins OpenStreetMap. Every day someone tinkers and tries to learn.
This is a good thing. In open communities, there is a varied learning arch
from beginner to expert. And, in most open communities, there are a few
moments when the growth from early adopters changes to include a wider,
diverse and global (multi-lingual) community. This is also a good thing.

I am concerned that these discussions close the door for new community
members or quieter community members or people of different skills or
people with lower digital literary skills. To me we are responsible to be
good leaders - welcome new people and be thankful that the community and
OSM improves. Yes, there are processes to change. But the one thing that I
really want to make very clear is that some of the comments are very
elitist and potential limit OSM. I also think that the tone of some of the
notes does not bode well for a healthy space for all.

We are collectively so much better than this potential road. We need to be
kinder.

Thank you,

Heather
OSM Member
HOT, Board of Directors


Heather Leson
heatherle...@gmail.com
Twitter: HeatherLeson
Blog: textontechs.com

On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 8:06 PM, Simon Poole  wrote:

>
> Am 19.11.2015 um 15:53 schrieb Blake Girardot:
> > 
> > It is a ridiculous statement on its face; obviously HOT does not
> > succeed if OSM does not succeed.
>
> I think we fully agree and if you recheck you will see that I said
> essentially the same.
>
> >
> > As to the original issue Ramm raised:
> >
> > Most HOT folks who commented agreed the example changeset comments,
> > while useful, could benefit from improvement (as could the vast
> > majority changeset comments in OSM). Mikel has already opened an issue
> > in github to improve them and the issue has already been brought to
> > the people who manage HOT OSM Tasking Manager projects, how is that
> > not working with and being responsive to the larger OSM community?
>
> Again if you go back you will see that I couldn't quite believe that a
> shism was really being declared because it doesn't make any sense.
>
> On the other hand you can't deny that HOT is in some ways self defeating
> since it isolates lots of people from the whole of OSM and the nitty
> grity parts. Intentionally naturally, but it doesn't necessarily
> actually help the humanitarian sectors understanding of what OSM is and
> how it works.
>
> >
> > I think HOT's history demonstrates an eagerness (and outright need) to
> > work with the OSM community at every opportunity (not mistake free of
> > course).  But I can also personally point to at least 1 example where
> > HOT has reached out to OSMF and the License WG and literally been
> > ignored after repeated attempts to even discuss an issue.
>
> I would be interested in a reference to that. We get a large number of
> enquiries, ~ 200 this year to date, and occasionally stuff gets pushed
> back, particularly if there is no good answer (naturally you would get
> an answer pointing that out).
>
> Simon
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Mikel Maron]

While it's factually correct to say that you don't have to take part in the 
community to work with OSM, I seldom see that in practice. Missing Maps and HOT 
are deeply involved in the OSM community. When we do see this gap between the 
data and community anywhere in OSM, it's a great action to take on, to find 
ways to make our community welcoming and understandable to more mappers. We 
also need to recognize that OSM is a collection of communities, especially 
along linguistic lines, and that we need to work more to integrate in positive 
ways.
-Mikel * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron 


On Thursday, November 19, 2015 11:44 AM, Simon Poole  wrote:
 
 

  
 
 Am 19.11.2015 um 15:17 schrieb Paul Johnson:
  
   On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 7:54 AM, Simon Poole  wrote:
 
  This seems a bit of an odd time to announce a schism and I'm sure you didn't 
intend for your statement to come across as it just did.  
 
 While rabid anti-OSMers are gaining more power and influence in HOT and MM, 
 
  Not sure what MM is, but how can you be anti-OSM and be on the Humanitarian 
OSM Team?  Seems rather self-defeatist.
 
 MM == missingmaps, sorry.
 
 The point is that you can use OSM, the infrastructure and tools, as a 
convenient and free service for mapping without buying in to OSM the 
collaborative, community driven mapping project, the only thing which is really 
required is that you have to live with the licence as determined by the 
contributors. In the end not much different than if you were to buy such a 
service from ESRI. 
 
 Now we don't really require buy in to OSM the project when people sign up, 
historically this has mainly caused issues with individuals and some times 
companies that have gone off on a tangent. But there is no doubt that a lot of 
things about OSM are "different", the rules, the structures (or rather the 
absence of them), how we technically do things and in the end getting community 
buy in to whatever you are doing, that are considered pesky annoyances and 
particularly a hindrance when you are on a mission to save the world. 
 
 Simon 
 
 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Mikel Maron]

"On the other hand you can't deny that HOT is in some ways self defeatingsince 
it isolates lots of people from the whole of OSM and the nitty
grity parts."
Fully denied. There are many facets to OSM, we are all, I hope, working to 
provide ways to integrate them.  * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel 
s:mikelmaron 


On Thursday, November 19, 2015 12:10 PM, Simon Poole  wrote:
 
 

 
Am 19.11.2015 um 15:53 schrieb Blake Girardot:
> 
> It is a ridiculous statement on its face; obviously HOT does not
> succeed if OSM does not succeed.

I think we fully agree and if you recheck you will see that I said
essentially the same.

>
> As to the original issue Ramm raised:
>
> Most HOT folks who commented agreed the example changeset comments,
> while useful, could benefit from improvement (as could the vast
> majority changeset comments in OSM). Mikel has already opened an issue
> in github to improve them and the issue has already been brought to
> the people who manage HOT OSM Tasking Manager projects, how is that
> not working with and being responsive to the larger OSM community?

Again if you go back you will see that I couldn't quite believe that a
shism was really being declared because it doesn't make any sense.

On the other hand you can't deny that HOT is in some ways self defeating
since it isolates lots of people from the whole of OSM and the nitty
grity parts. Intentionally naturally, but it doesn't necessarily
actually help the humanitarian sectors understanding of what OSM is and
how it works.

>
> I think HOT's history demonstrates an eagerness (and outright need) to
> work with the OSM community at every opportunity (not mistake free of
> course).  But I can also personally point to at least 1 example where
> HOT has reached out to OSMF and the License WG and literally been
> ignored after repeated attempts to even discuss an issue.

I would be interested in a reference to that. We get a large number of
enquiries, ~ 200 this year to date, and occasionally stuff gets pushed
back, particularly if there is no good answer (naturally you would get
an answer pointing that out).

Simon

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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[john whelan]

HOT and OSM are slightly different, HOT maps on OSM but uses a simpler more
standardized approach.  Many of their volunteers often do not know enough
English to write a meaningful change set comment.

HOT tends to map in areas that do not have a great deal of OSM mapping
already in place so I don't see that it really matters if they use preset
comments from the tile system.  The HOT comment gives you the task and tile
number so you can look up on the tile system where it is and also what has
been asked for.

Or are we now asking that all mappers on OSM have to be able to read and
write in English since that is the normal language for communication in OSM
or is one of the local African languages sufficient.  If it is then I
assure you I won't be able to understand what it says.

I think one thing I like about HOT is the validation process, an
experienced mapper goes over the mapping and tries to eliminate as many
errors or mis-tags as possible and ensure that everything visible in the
image is mapped, and yes I understand armchair mappers are looked down on
by many mappers but the work they do is valuable in many areas.

Cheerio John

On 18 November 2015 at 19:11, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
>I would like to draw everyone's attention to a long-standing
> community recommendation:
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_changeset_comments
>
> It explains why you should use sensible changeset comments that describe
> what you (think you) have been doing.
>
> I don't know exactly who encourages this, but I am seeing lots of
> changesets with comments like this:
>
> #MissingMaps #hotosm-project-12345 Lubumbashi, Congo (DRC) #100mapathons
> #OSMGeoWeek
>
> This is *not* useful. First of all, we're not Twitter; we don't evaluate
> these hashtags. I don't know if there are some downstream services that
> do, but if so, please switch to using a secondary tag (remember,
> changesets, like other OSM objects, can have any number of tags).
>
> As a reader of the edit history of a place, I am interested in someone
> writing that they have traced buildings or drawn roads or done whatever.
> I'm not so much interested in (what I perceive as) vanity hashtags, they
> don't help me understand what the person did.
>
> I mean look at this:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/history#map=6/8.418/43.923
>
> It's really a caricature of what changeset comments were meant to be.
>
> Can it be fixed somehow, or have we permanently moved from changeset
> comments being aimed at your fellow human mappers to changeset comments
> being auto-generated for consumption by some software that makes sense
> of them?
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Warin]

On 19/11/2015 11:11 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Hi,

I would like to draw everyone's attention to a long-standing
community recommendation:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_changeset_comments

It explains why you should use sensible changeset comments that describe
what you (think you) have been doing.

I don't know exactly who encourages this, but I am seeing lots of
changesets with comments like this:

#MissingMaps #hotosm-project-12345 Lubumbashi, Congo (DRC) #100mapathons
#OSMGeoWeek

This is *not* useful. First of all, we're not Twitter; we don't evaluate
these hashtags. I don't know if there are some downstream services that
do, but if so, please switch to using a secondary tag (remember,
changesets, like other OSM objects, can have any number of tags).

As a reader of the edit history of a place, I am interested in someone
writing that they have traced buildings or drawn roads or done whatever.
I'm not so much interested in (what I perceive as) vanity hashtags, they
don't help me understand what the person did.

I mean look at this:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/history#map=6/8.418/43.923

It's really a caricature of what changeset comments were meant to be.

Can it be fixed somehow, or have we permanently moved from changeset
comments being aimed at your fellow human mappers to changeset comments
being auto-generated for consumption by some software that makes sense
of them?

Bye
Frederik



My changeset comments usually:

Start with the 'where' - country state and city/town ... if I range over 
some continents then I leave this out!


'What I did.' This could be 'housekeeping' - where I 'fix' validation 
errors and warnings. I now try to keep the 'housekeeping' as a separate 
chengeset from other things. General things like 'added sports details', 
'added road names' etc.


These things can be of use to me - keeping track of where I have been 
and what I did in general. Sometimes I miss all the things I did ... but 
I get most of them. Sometimes I miss changing the changeset comments!


---
I think the addition of the 'where' is usefull. So I 'like' that bit of 
the HOT changeset comment. But I too would like the human operator to 
add some detail.




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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Warin]

On 19/11/2015 11:52 AM, john whelan wrote:
HOT and OSM are slightly different, HOT maps on OSM but uses a simpler 
more standardized approach.  Many of their volunteers often do not 
know enough English to write a meaningful change set comment.


HOT tends to map in areas that do not have a great deal of OSM mapping 
already in place so I don't see that it really matters if they use 
preset comments from the tile system.  The HOT comment gives you the 
task and tile number so you can look up on the tile system where it is 
and also what has been asked for.


Then why cannot the task / tile number be expressed in English?? As the 
location is already given, what is so hard about a simple statement of 
the 'what' for the changeset?


Or are we now asking that all mappers on OSM have to be able to read 
and write in English since that is the normal language for 
communication in OSM or is one of the local African languages 
sufficient.  If it is then I assure you I won't be able to understand 
what it says.


I have no problem with an entry in ANY language. Wolf, French etc etc. I 
probably won't understand it directly ... but I can use a web based 
translator.


I think one thing I like about HOT is the validation process, an 
experienced mapper goes over the mapping and tries to eliminate as 
many errors or mis-tags as possible and ensure that everything visible 
in the image is mapped, and yes I understand armchair mappers are 
looked down on by many mappers but the work they do is valuable in 
many areas.


Cheerio John

On 18 November 2015 at 19:11, Frederik Ramm > wrote:


Hi,

   I would like to draw everyone's attention to a long-standing
community recommendation:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_changeset_comments

It explains why you should use sensible changeset comments that
describe
what you (think you) have been doing.

I don't know exactly who encourages this, but I am seeing lots of
changesets with comments like this:

#MissingMaps #hotosm-project-12345 Lubumbashi, Congo (DRC)
#100mapathons
#OSMGeoWeek

This is *not* useful. First of all, we're not Twitter; we don't
evaluate
these hashtags. I don't know if there are some downstream services
that
do, but if so, please switch to using a secondary tag (remember,
changesets, like other OSM objects, can have any number of tags).

As a reader of the edit history of a place, I am interested in someone
writing that they have traced buildings or drawn roads or done
whatever.
I'm not so much interested in (what I perceive as) vanity
hashtags, they
don't help me understand what the person did.

I mean look at this:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/history#map=6/8.418/43.923

It's really a caricature of what changeset comments were meant to be.

Can it be fixed somehow, or have we permanently moved from changeset
comments being aimed at your fellow human mappers to changeset
comments
being auto-generated for consumption by some software that makes sense
of them?

Bye
Frederik

--
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 ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Nicolás Alvarez]

2015-11-18 21:11 GMT-03:00 Frederik Ramm :
> This is *not* useful. First of all, we're not Twitter; we don't evaluate
> these hashtags. I don't know if there are some downstream services that
> do, but if so, please switch to using a secondary tag (remember,
> changesets, like other OSM objects, can have any number of tags).

Worse, I see many HOT changesets that have source=Bing in the
changeset comment instead of a separate tag.

Although... Does iD allow setting changeset tags?

-- 
Nicolás

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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Robert Banick]

Hi all,




Surely this is a case of “more is better”. As Kate suggests, the hashtags are a 
great tool for downstream analytics we can use to learn about and improve our 
work.




At mapathons I always instruct newcomers to add their personal comments to the 
pre-loaded tags from the tasking manager. If mapathon holders don’t instruct 
mappers to add their own comments then I would think that calls for the same 
patient back channel communications we give to mappers who tag features wrong 
or other well-meaning mistakes.




Robert








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On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 9:44 AM, Kate Chapman  wrote:

> Hi Frederik,
> I fail to see how machine readable hashtags are "not useful". They allow
> statistical analysis which can be used to inform future recruitment and
> other activities. Often we make assumptions about OSM contributors not
> backed by statistics this allows improvement in one corner of the OSM
> community. Perhaps some human readable text would also be useful, but I
> don't think of adding hashtag like comments as an issue.
> -Kate
> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 4:11 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>>I would like to draw everyone's attention to a long-standing
>> community recommendation:
>>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_changeset_comments
>>
>> It explains why you should use sensible changeset comments that describe
>> what you (think you) have been doing.
>>
>> I don't know exactly who encourages this, but I am seeing lots of
>> changesets with comments like this:
>>
>> #MissingMaps #hotosm-project-12345 Lubumbashi, Congo (DRC) #100mapathons
>> #OSMGeoWeek
>>
>> This is *not* useful. First of all, we're not Twitter; we don't evaluate
>> these hashtags. I don't know if there are some downstream services that
>> do, but if so, please switch to using a secondary tag (remember,
>> changesets, like other OSM objects, can have any number of tags).
>>
>> As a reader of the edit history of a place, I am interested in someone
>> writing that they have traced buildings or drawn roads or done whatever.
>> I'm not so much interested in (what I perceive as) vanity hashtags, they
>> don't help me understand what the person did.
>>
>> I mean look at this:
>>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/history#map=6/8.418/43.923
>>
>> It's really a caricature of what changeset comments were meant to be.
>>
>> Can it be fixed somehow, or have we permanently moved from changeset
>> comments being aimed at your fellow human mappers to changeset comments
>> being auto-generated for consumption by some software that makes sense
>> of them?
>>
>> Bye
>> Frederik
>>
>> --
>> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Kate Chapman]

Hi Frederik,

I fail to see how machine readable hashtags are "not useful". They allow
statistical analysis which can be used to inform future recruitment and
other activities. Often we make assumptions about OSM contributors not
backed by statistics this allows improvement in one corner of the OSM
community. Perhaps some human readable text would also be useful, but I
don't think of adding hashtag like comments as an issue.

-Kate

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 4:11 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
>I would like to draw everyone's attention to a long-standing
> community recommendation:
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_changeset_comments
>
> It explains why you should use sensible changeset comments that describe
> what you (think you) have been doing.
>
> I don't know exactly who encourages this, but I am seeing lots of
> changesets with comments like this:
>
> #MissingMaps #hotosm-project-12345 Lubumbashi, Congo (DRC) #100mapathons
> #OSMGeoWeek
>
> This is *not* useful. First of all, we're not Twitter; we don't evaluate
> these hashtags. I don't know if there are some downstream services that
> do, but if so, please switch to using a secondary tag (remember,
> changesets, like other OSM objects, can have any number of tags).
>
> As a reader of the edit history of a place, I am interested in someone
> writing that they have traced buildings or drawn roads or done whatever.
> I'm not so much interested in (what I perceive as) vanity hashtags, they
> don't help me understand what the person did.
>
> I mean look at this:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/history#map=6/8.418/43.923
>
> It's really a caricature of what changeset comments were meant to be.
>
> Can it be fixed somehow, or have we permanently moved from changeset
> comments being aimed at your fellow human mappers to changeset comments
> being auto-generated for consumption by some software that makes sense
> of them?
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Peter Barth]

Hi Kate,

Kate Chapman schrieb:
> I fail to see how machine readable hashtags are "not useful". They allow
> statistical analysis which can be used to inform future recruitment and
> other activities. 

but as Frederik suggested: Why do these hashtags have to be in the
changeset comment? Your statistical analysis wouldn't suffer if you'd
put it in any other tag in the changeset.

hot:project=12345
hot:reason=100mapathons
whatever else...

Then again the changeset comment has a defined semantics, which gets
perverted with such comments. The readability for anyone else except yor
analysis tool does suffer from these comments.

Peda


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