Re: [OSM-talk] bus stops signs in the usa.
On 02/09/2019 21:03, 80hnhtv4agou--- via talk wrote: if the number is on the sign, and there is no tag for route # is that not the name which will show on the map ? Different maps show different information on bus stops. As an example, here's how OSM's Transport Map displays two bus stops in Nottingham: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/502375294#map=19/52.96490/-1.17252=TN (the two form one stop area, and that stop area is shown) Here's another* map: https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=21=52.9649694=-1.1726692 That doesn't show the stop area but does show some information about the reference number of the bus stop from a field that's valid for most bus stops in OSM in the UK (but not elsewhere). Other maps will show different things again. As long as you make sure that you use valid tags in OSM (e.g. don't misuse the "name" field on a bus stop for something which is not the name) everything will be OK. Best Regards, Andy * disclaimer - that's one I created. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] bus stops signs in the usa.
you are taling about the bus stop id. Às 21:03 de 02/09/2019, 80hnhtv4agou--- via talk escreveu: if the number is on the sign, and there is no tag for route # is that not the name which will show on the map ? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
On 24 Apr 2008, at 03:40, Peter Miller wrote: Comments in line -Original Message- From: Shaun McDonald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 24 April 2008 00:22 To: Peter Miller Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops On 23 Apr 2008, at 17:45, Peter Miller wrote: The EU standard Transmodel defines a Stop Point as 'A POINT where passengers can board or alight from vehicles'. For bus stops this means a single pole, shelter etc and for a place where there are three poles for different services close together then there would be three entries. There are also places where buses stop where there is no physical infrastructure but where buses stop which also need Stop Points. In rural areas there might be a pole on one side of the road but buses stop in both directions, or in some places there is not infrastructure on either side of the road. For there are a number of Stop Points close to each other then these can be grouped into Stop Areas that are 'A group of STOP POINTs close to each other'. I suggest that we achieve this with a relationship call a 'Stop Area' is people are keen to model it. I know that Google models the bus stops as being on either side of the road. Personally, I believe that it is better to have one node per bus stop, even if they are close together in each direction. To be clear, are you saying that Google say that in the case of two bus stops nearly opposite each other on either sides of the road then these should be encoded as two separate entities? If so they are equivalent to a Transmodel Stop Point. Personally I didn't find Google's description too clear on the matter and I suspect that there may be some data suppliers who interpret the GT stop concept as a Stop Point (two separate entities) and other data suppliers who will interpret it as a Stop Area (one entity). http://code.google.com/transit/spec/transit_feed_specification.html There are debates on the GT email group at the moment about how to code station entrances and stop Points that are distant from the road etc so their data model is still evolving and is probably not as good a reference for us as the EU standards which worked this out 10 years ago. Here's an example: http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8ll=55.934719,-3.316272spn=0.002921,0.010042z=17 It used to display the number of the various bus routes and the companies that run them in a balloon. There is also a hailer zone, where there are no bus stops specifically. The driver just stops where it is safe to do so and passengers need to get on and off. Sure, it would make sense to define a Hail and Ride section as being part of a length of road as an attribute of the road, although one would need to allow for the case where it was only buses in one direction that stopped. Hail and Ride is always the delinquent 'awkward' child in the mix, and will require special attention. In the UK standards there would be one notional Stop Point for each direction for a hail-and-ride section. Hail and ride sections often have stops in the middle of them which are used as reference stops. Though it isn't always safe for the bus to stop at them, so they just stop elsewhere. For railway stations it can get more complicated as a platform can be made up of sub platforms (long trains stop at platform 4 and two short ones can stop at 4A and 4B etc). In this case I believe there should be a Stop Point for 4, 4A and 4B. http://www.transmodel.org/en/transmodel/gloss/s.htm Train platforms are so long that I think that they should be modeled as a way parallel to the railway line as rail=platform. I have done this for Stirling Station, and Edinburgh Park in West Edinburgh, if I remember correctly. This also means that you can model how you get on to and from the station platforms. It's all very well seeing a station there as a dot, but at high zoom you need to know how to get there from the surrounding roads. Agreed. In the EU model there is a distinction between the logical 'Stop Point' (a point feature) and the physical platform (an area) and the track (a line). There would be a logical Stop Points that would be used within the schedules (relating to platform 4, 4A and 4B in my example), and this will separately be associated with a physical bit of the world (a platform). One platform can of course also serve two separate 'tracks'. There may also be one or more Boarding Points associated with the platform associated with where to stand to enter the train through a particular door for one's booked seat. As I mentioned in an earlier post the physical design of the station is described in the IFOPT standard. Incidentally platforms are called Quays for ferry services and are similar to Gates in airports. In the EU standard they are all of these are called Quays. http://www.naptan.org.uk/ifopt/ I am interesting in the idea of how OSM might model larger transport
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
Some people advocate nodes off to the side of the way to represent the location of the pole or shelter in relation to the road. Near where I live (Korea) there is often a shelter on one side of the road for buses going both directions. In that case I'm guessing I would put a shelter node on one side of the road and a node that is not a shelter on the other side. How do I relate these nodes to the way? I don't like the idea of short segments perpendicular to the way. On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 1:45 AM, Peter Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The EU standard Transmodel defines a Stop Point as 'A POINT where passengers can board or alight from vehicles'. For bus stops this means a single pole, shelter etc and for a place where there are three poles for different services close together then there would be three entries. There are also places where buses stop where there is no physical infrastructure but where buses stop which also need Stop Points. In rural areas there might be a pole on one side of the road but buses stop in both directions, or in some places there is not infrastructure on either side of the road. For there are a number of Stop Points close to each other then these can be grouped into Stop Areas that are 'A group of STOP POINTs close to each other'. I suggest that we achieve this with a relationship call a 'Stop Area' is people are keen to model it. For railway stations it can get more complicated as a platform can be made up of sub platforms (long trains stop at platform 4 and two short ones can stop at 4A and 4B etc). In this case I believe there should be a Stop Point for 4, 4A and 4B. http://www.transmodel.org/en/transmodel/gloss/s.htm This interpretation is now being discussed as ISO level so is probably the one to go with. Are we agreed that this is the appropriate interpretation for the feature going forward. In which case shall I add this clarification and interpretation to the relevant OSM tag page? Btw, Someone might like to ask the DfT in the UK at some point for a copy of the DB they have with the location of over 350,000 bus stops with their names and the name of the associated street. I know the people but it might be better if it came from someone else, possibly from the foundation? Regards, Peter Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 20:03:14 +0900 From: Jeffrey Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops To: Mike Collinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 How am I supposed to do bus stops? If two bus stops are on opposite sides of the road then I think maybe they can share a node? I found in some email that you can make little short service links. I don't like that. The bus pulls over to the side of the road where I'm at. Sometimes they aren't exactly across the street from each other. Where I'm at there are lots of wood and concrete bus shelters. On Sun, Aug 12, 2007 at 12:07 AM, Mike Collinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Excellent background information for basing our models. Thank you Peter. Mike At 07:21 AM 11/08/2007, Peter Miller wrote: The conventional way of handling Bus Stops in the public transport industry is to have a node for each individual point at which one can get on a vehicle, so if there are two bus stops on opposite sides of the road then they are represented as two nodes. If there are three bays in a row on one side of the road then they are represented a 3 nodes in a row. Every Bus Stop in the UK has a unique code, and this is sometimes printed on the bus stop itself. In the EU standards they are called 'Stop Points' (rather than Bus Stops) so they can cover buses, tram, rail, ferry planes etc. In railway stations there is a Stop Point for each Platform (and each bay in a bus station, each Gate for an Airport and each quay in a Ferry terminal). Groups of local Stop Points (as they are called) are then arranged into Stop Areas where they are very close to each other. These Stop Points are not within the road layer because Stop Points are a distinct dataset managed separately; they are then associated with a street, sometimes using the Street Name and sometimes based on proximity. I recommend that we use 'Bus Stop' and 'Stop Point' for this low-level purpose and construct entities as we need them. The database of all these points in the UK is called 'NaPTAN' (standing for 'National Public Transport Access Nodes'), there are about 350,000 of them, and keen people can find additional information here: http://www.naptan.org.uk/ A new CEN standard is in the process of being ratified, called IFOPT which can be used for describe much more complex transport interchanges, such as major airports and railways stations
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
Jeffrey Martin wrote: Sent: 24 April 2008 9:06 AM To: Peter Miller Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops Some people advocate nodes off to the side of the way to represent the location of the pole or shelter in relation to the road. Near where I live (Korea) there is often a shelter on one side of the road for buses going both directions. In that case I'm guessing I would put a shelter node on one side of the road and a node that is not a shelter on the other side. How do I relate these nodes to the way? I don't like the idea of short segments perpendicular to the way. Because a bus stop is a highway feature it really in my view should be part of it. And because we map what we see on the ground then logically if there are two bus stops not quite opposite each other then I place two nodes, one for each and tag them appropriately. Placing short links from a bus stop node placed off the highway to the highway itself is I guess fine if those links are tagged as highway=footway, but personally I think that's a lot of unnecessary effort and complexity in the map. The remaining issue revolves around the direction of the bus at a particular node. I didn't have an answer to this until I looked at what the signage was on my local bust stops. Now I find it easy to tag because each one tells me in which direction the bus is travelling (eg towards Birmingham). So I add a towards= tag and jobs a good un. I'm not going to worry at the moment about how I might use this tag to make bus route information, the important aspect is that the data that's needed to work that out later is in the database. For those interested, my Birmingham orientated bus stop mapping consists of the following tags placed on highway nodes (one for each physical stop). highway=bus_stop route_ref=12|255|904|905 location=Lichfield Road, Bakers Lane towards=Shenstone shelter=true ref=053460 (This is the numbered reference of that bus stop. each one has a different number, even when there are two opposite each other at the same point along the highway) Cheers Andy On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 1:45 AM, Peter Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The EU standard Transmodel defines a Stop Point as 'A POINT where passengers can board or alight from vehicles'. For bus stops this means a single pole, shelter etc and for a place where there are three poles for different services close together then there would be three entries. There are also places where buses stop where there is no physical infrastructure but where buses stop which also need Stop Points. In rural areas there might be a pole on one side of the road but buses stop in both directions, or in some places there is not infrastructure on either side of the road. For there are a number of Stop Points close to each other then these can be grouped into Stop Areas that are 'A group of STOP POINTs close to each other'. I suggest that we achieve this with a relationship call a 'Stop Area' is people are keen to model it. For railway stations it can get more complicated as a platform can be made up of sub platforms (long trains stop at platform 4 and two short ones can stop at 4A and 4B etc). In this case I believe there should be a Stop Point for 4, 4A and 4B. http://www.transmodel.org/en/transmodel/gloss/s.htm This interpretation is now being discussed as ISO level so is probably the one to go with. Are we agreed that this is the appropriate interpretation for the feature going forward. In which case shall I add this clarification and interpretation to the relevant OSM tag page? Btw, Someone might like to ask the DfT in the UK at some point for a copy of the DB they have with the location of over 350,000 bus stops with their names and the name of the associated street. I know the people but it might be better if it came from someone else, possibly from the foundation? Regards, Peter Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 20:03:14 +0900 From: Jeffrey Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops To: Mike Collinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 How am I supposed to do bus stops? If two bus stops are on opposite sides of the road then I think maybe they can share a node? I found in some email that you can make little short service links. I don't like that. The bus pulls over to the side of the road where I'm at. Sometimes they aren't exactly across the street from each other. Where I'm at there are lots of wood and concrete bus shelters. On Sun, Aug 12, 2007 at 12:07 AM, Mike Collinson [EMAIL
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 9:28 AM, Andy Robinson (blackadder) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeffrey Martin wrote: Sent: 24 April 2008 9:06 AM To: Peter Miller Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops Some people advocate nodes off to the side of the way to represent the location of the pole or shelter in relation to the road. Near where I live (Korea) there is often a shelter on one side of the road for buses going both directions. In that case I'm guessing I would put a shelter node on one side of the road and a node that is not a shelter on the other side. How do I relate these nodes to the way? I don't like the idea of short segments perpendicular to the way. Because a bus stop is a highway feature it really in my view should be part of it. And because we map what we see on the ground then logically if there are two bus stops not quite opposite each other then I place two nodes, one for each and tag them appropriately. Placing short links from a bus stop node placed off the highway to the highway itself is I guess fine if those links are tagged as highway=footway, but personally I think that's a lot of unnecessary effort and complexity in the map. Where as I think of bus stops as a pavement feature -- I really don't care which road it's on, that's the bus driver's problem ;-) I get the feeling we should be tagging both (if you can be bothered) and linking the two -- but I'd prefer this didn't happen with short footways... they come across to me as a bit fake. It's a virtual link, so just keep it virtual: bus_stops=here or something. Alternatively get out the relation box of tricks, but that might be unnecessarily complicated. It's certainly the better option than hacking someone's nice bus stops into your own preferred style, even if you aren't going to do it that way for new mapping. The remaining issue revolves around the direction of the bus at a particular node. I didn't have an answer to this until I looked at what the signage was on my local bust stops. Now I find it easy to tag because each one tells me in which direction the bus is travelling (eg towards Birmingham). So I add a towards= tag and jobs a good un. This works! I generally find I need the help of a timetable to figure out if I'm at the right stop as it's quite normal for the bus to be heading in the wrong direction for the place stated if it's trying to catch another stop on the way, but given the whole route information you should be able to figure it out. I'm not going to worry at the moment about how I might use this tag to make bus route information, the important aspect is that the data that's needed to work that out later is in the database And lets face it, the moment someone actually starts using this data we'll probably decide to do something completely different anyway :-) Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
I've made a decision for what I am going to do. If I wait until there is some standard way it will be a hassle to find all these stops later instead of putting them in now with all the other data, and I might loose my little scraps of paper. Here's my plan of action. I'm going to put a node on the exact location of each bus stop offset from the way. I don't want to loose that location data until I'm sure we want to throw it out. Putting a node on the way instead would essentially erase the location of the stops and shelters. If someone wants to come along later and put a node on the way or make some kind of association they can do that. On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 6:37 PM, Dave Stubbs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 9:28 AM, Andy Robinson (blackadder) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeffrey Martin wrote: Sent: 24 April 2008 9:06 AM To: Peter Miller Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops Some people advocate nodes off to the side of the way to represent the location of the pole or shelter in relation to the road. Near where I live (Korea) there is often a shelter on one side of the road for buses going both directions. In that case I'm guessing I would put a shelter node on one side of the road and a node that is not a shelter on the other side. How do I relate these nodes to the way? I don't like the idea of short segments perpendicular to the way. Because a bus stop is a highway feature it really in my view should be part of it. And because we map what we see on the ground then logically if there are two bus stops not quite opposite each other then I place two nodes, one for each and tag them appropriately. Placing short links from a bus stop node placed off the highway to the highway itself is I guess fine if those links are tagged as highway=footway, but personally I think that's a lot of unnecessary effort and complexity in the map. Where as I think of bus stops as a pavement feature -- I really don't care which road it's on, that's the bus driver's problem ;-) I get the feeling we should be tagging both (if you can be bothered) and linking the two -- but I'd prefer this didn't happen with short footways... they come across to me as a bit fake. It's a virtual link, so just keep it virtual: bus_stops=here or something. Alternatively get out the relation box of tricks, but that might be unnecessarily complicated. It's certainly the better option than hacking someone's nice bus stops into your own preferred style, even if you aren't going to do it that way for new mapping. The remaining issue revolves around the direction of the bus at a particular node. I didn't have an answer to this until I looked at what the signage was on my local bust stops. Now I find it easy to tag because each one tells me in which direction the bus is travelling (eg towards Birmingham). So I add a towards= tag and jobs a good un. This works! I generally find I need the help of a timetable to figure out if I'm at the right stop as it's quite normal for the bus to be heading in the wrong direction for the place stated if it's trying to catch another stop on the way, but given the whole route information you should be able to figure it out. I'm not going to worry at the moment about how I might use this tag to make bus route information, the important aspect is that the data that's needed to work that out later is in the database And lets face it, the moment someone actually starts using this data we'll probably decide to do something completely different anyway :-) Dave -- http://bowlad.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
Jeffrey Martin wrote: I've made a decision for what I am going to do. If I wait until there is some standard way it will be a hassle to find all these stops later instead of putting them in now with all the other data, and I might loose my little scraps of paper. Here's my plan of action. I'm going to put a node on the exact location of each bus stop offset from the way. I don't want to loose that location data until I'm sure we want to throw it out. Putting a node on the way instead would essentially erase the location of the stops and shelters. If someone wants to come along later and put a node on the way or make some kind of association they can do that. That does seem to be the sensible way of doing it, in the absence of any other guidelines. What of cause is missing is some means of relating it easily to the way that then are actually linked to ? A nice 'is_in' link to the 'unique_id' of the way so that one can actually find all the bus stops on a route ;) Looking at the way things have developed, is there any reason we can't set a tag for is_in, and then select a way, so that the key becomes is_in=# ? I don't think Relations has the necessary structure yet to be useful here? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
Comments in line -Original Message- From: Ben Laenen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 24 April 2008 12:30 To: talk@openstreetmap.org Cc: Andy Robinson (blackadder); 'Jeffrey Martin'; 'Peter Miller' Subject: [Spam] Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops On Thursday 24 April 2008, Andy Robinson (blackadder) wrote: Because a bus stop is a highway feature it really in my view should be part of it. And because we map what we see on the ground then logically if there are two bus stops not quite opposite each other then I place two nodes, one for each and tag them appropriately. Placing short links from a bus stop node placed off the highway to the highway itself is I guess fine if those links are tagged as highway=footway, but personally I think that's a lot of unnecessary effort and complexity in the map. I'd like to compare tagging bus stops with tram stops here. While I think it's common (at least from what I've seen) to use nodes on the ways representing the tram lines, -- like we do for train stations -- for some reason it isn't for bus stops. Even though tram stops have the exact same issue: it's not always a stop in both direction The EU standards make a distinction between a station, and a Stop. Technically there should often be two Stop Points (or platforms) for the tram, or either side of the track and a 'station' for the group. In some cases there may indeed be one platform in the middle of the tram service with tracks on either side in which case only one stop point would be defined. Similarly an metro station may have one 'station' but multiple platforms. It would make sense to rationalise bus stops, tram stops, metro platforms, ferry quays into the same structures as the standards do. The remaining issue revolves around the direction of the bus at a particular node. I didn't have an answer to this until I looked at what the signage was on my local bust stops. Now I find it easy to tag because each one tells me in which direction the bus is travelling (eg towards Birmingham). So I add a towards= tag and jobs a good un. I'm not going to worry at the moment about how I might use this tag to make bus route information, the important aspect is that the data that's needed to work that out later is in the database. That can be done for bus stops with only one line, but not when there are ten bus lines stopping which go to ten different destinations. Agreed, I think we should avoid overloading bus stops with service information, although ;'towards Birmingham' might be an appropriate way of indicating the direction that all buses much take from that spot, as opposed to ';way from Birmingham' on the other side of the road. But that is to do with the road system not today's bus service patterns. In a beautiful world we could just add the bus stops to the bus route relations, but we'd need to define good roles to make it obvious what direction a bus goes to there. But if that is worked out, there'll be no ambiguity left to put bus stop nodes on the highways anymore. We could talk about modelling bus services, but lets not for now. Lets sort out fixed infrastructure and then revisit timetable. Peter Greetings Ben ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
Ben Laenen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sent: 24 April 2008 12:30 PM To: talk@openstreetmap.org Cc: Andy Robinson (blackadder); 'Jeffrey Martin'; 'Peter Miller' Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops On Thursday 24 April 2008, Andy Robinson (blackadder) wrote: Because a bus stop is a highway feature it really in my view should be part of it. And because we map what we see on the ground then logically if there are two bus stops not quite opposite each other then I place two nodes, one for each and tag them appropriately. Placing short links from a bus stop node placed off the highway to the highway itself is I guess fine if those links are tagged as highway=footway, but personally I think that's a lot of unnecessary effort and complexity in the map. I'd like to compare tagging bus stops with tram stops here. While I think it's common (at least from what I've seen) to use nodes on the ways representing the tram lines, -- like we do for train stations -- for some reason it isn't for bus stops. Even though tram stops have the exact same issue: it's not always a stop in both direction The remaining issue revolves around the direction of the bus at a particular node. I didn't have an answer to this until I looked at what the signage was on my local bust stops. Now I find it easy to tag because each one tells me in which direction the bus is travelling (eg towards Birmingham). So I add a towards= tag and jobs a good un. I'm not going to worry at the moment about how I might use this tag to make bus route information, the important aspect is that the data that's needed to work that out later is in the database. That can be done for bus stops with only one line, but not when there are ten bus lines stopping which go to ten different destinations. In Birmingham the towards label on the bus stop gives the general direction and is usually the next logical placename on the general route, often not very far away. It's not the final destination of the route, that's associated with the route reference number and the timetable. Where the location of the stop has many different routes running through it with wildly varying destinations they tend here to place two or more shelters adjacent to each other. I know of some pleases where there is a row of at least 5 stops all next to one other (mainly found in the city centre), all with separate shelters or sign posts. You similarly get the same sort of thing at a bus station of course. Like I said, it's easy for me to forget the difficulty and just enter the data as it's displayed on the bus stop sign. I'm sure I'll work out a way of making use of the data logically a lot later when all the Birmingham bus stops are in the database. Maybe then I'll find I could/should have placed and tagged a little differently, but somehow I suspect what I have got will be good enough. Its working on the ground, so why not via the OSM database. Cheers Andy In a beautiful world we could just add the bus stops to the bus route relations, but we'd need to define good roles to make it obvious what direction a bus goes to there. But if that is worked out, there'll be no ambiguity left to put bus stop nodes on the highways anymore. Greetings Ben ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 11:08 AM, Jeffrey Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've made a decision for what I am going to do. If I wait until there is some standard way it will be a hassle to find all these stops later instead of putting them in now with all the other data, and I might loose my little scraps of paper. Here's my plan of action. I'm going to put a node on the exact location of each bus stop offset from the way. I don't want to loose that location data until I'm sure we want to throw it out. Putting a node on the way instead would essentially erase the location of the stops and shelters. If someone wants to come along later and put a node on the way or make some kind of association they can do that. That sounds like an excellent plan. There's rarely any point in waiting to add stuff if you've got the data already, it can always be changed later if necessary. Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
Ben Laenen wrote: On Thursday 24 April 2008, Andy Robinson (blackadder) wrote: Because a bus stop is a highway feature it really in my view should be part of it. And because we map what we see on the ground then logically if there are two bus stops not quite opposite each other then I place two nodes, one for each and tag them appropriately. Placing short links from a bus stop node placed off the highway to the highway itself is I guess fine if those links are tagged as highway=footway, but personally I think that's a lot of unnecessary effort and complexity in the map. I'd like to compare tagging bus stops with tram stops here. While I think it's common (at least from what I've seen) to use nodes on the ways representing the tram lines, -- like we do for train stations -- for some reason it isn't for bus stops. Even though tram stops have the exact same issue: it's not always a stop in both direction It is the same problem where the tram way and the road share the same way, but isn't it more normal to find that there is a way for the tram track in the same way as the separate carriage ways of a two carriage way road? Certainly at some point that would make senses especially with discussions on including details like 'platform' and access to those from footpaths on the railway information. Trams are just less protected railway lines, and a complete map of their tracks with the correct related platforms and stops makes sense? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
On Thursday 24 April 2008, Lester Caine wrote: It is the same problem where the tram way and the road share the same way, but isn't it more normal to find that there is a way for the tram track in the same way as the separate carriage ways of a two carriage way road? I've certainly been tagging two tram tracks as one way (it's also the Belgian consensus to tag two railway tracks next to each other as one way). It makes more sense if the tracks are next to each other to tag them as one way, and you can then make use of the same nodes as the way from the highway it's on for the tram way, and especially when the underlying highway is single carriage. Greetings Ben ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:22 PM, Lester Caine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeffrey Martin wrote: I've made a decision for what I am going to do. If I wait until there is some standard way it will be a hassle to find all these stops later instead of putting them in now with all the other data, and I might loose my little scraps of paper. Here's my plan of action. I'm going to put a node on the exact location of each bus stop offset from the way. I don't want to loose that location data until I'm sure we want to throw it out. Putting a node on the way instead would essentially erase the location of the stops and shelters. If someone wants to come along later and put a node on the way or make some kind of association they can do that. That does seem to be the sensible way of doing it, in the absence of any other guidelines. What of cause is missing is some means of relating it easily to the way that then are actually linked to ? A nice 'is_in' link to the 'unique_id' of the way so that one can actually find all the bus stops on a route ;) Looking at the way things have developed, is there any reason we can't set a tag for is_in, and then select a way, so that the key becomes is_in=# ? I don't think Relations has the necessary structure yet to be useful here? If you want to link two nodes together, then the easiest most obvious way of doing it is to use a way. A way is an object that links two or more nodes afterall. If you want to link a node and a way, the a relation is your tool. This is exactly what relations do, they link and relate objects -- the advantage over putting IDs in tags is that any editor that supports relations in general will know about the connection as will the API, and the DB can maintain referential integrity so you don't end up with hanging links. You can do nice things with the API such as http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.5/way/way_id/relations -- which tells you what relations the way belongs to. Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
Ben Laenen wrote: We could talk about modelling bus services, but lets not for now. Lets sort out fixed infrastructure and then revisit timetable. Modelling bus lines isn't difficult, just enter some route relations and many people have done it before (time tables are really out of the question right now, I guess no-one wants to enter time table data for each bus stop separately yet, as it would take an hour for one stop I think). What hasn't been done yet is associating bus stops with those routes. Having producing Customer Information Systems for trains and buses for far too long ( Windows 3.1 systems were running until recently ) I think I can vouch that none of this is rocket science. We had reached a point where a default route timetable could be created based on the times between stops and OSM 15 years ago would have been the obvious next step for showing movements. All we need is a list of 'stops' be they bus,tram,train or boat, and then you have the route. We could manually create a full timetable from the 'schedule' in a couple of hours - given the right basic tools ;) -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
Ben Laenen wrote: On Thursday 24 April 2008, Lester Caine wrote: It is the same problem where the tram way and the road share the same way, but isn't it more normal to find that there is a way for the tram track in the same way as the separate carriage ways of a two carriage way road? I've certainly been tagging two tram tracks as one way (it's also the Belgian consensus to tag two railway tracks next to each other as one way). It makes more sense if the tracks are next to each other to tag them as one way, and you can then make use of the same nodes as the way from the highway it's on for the tram way, and especially when the underlying highway is single carriage. It depends how fine a level of detail people want at the end of the day, the micro-mapping camp will need to work out how to pull a single way apart to display two tracks and the associated roadway. An on-going discussion I know, but simple changes to the way things are mapped now may make life easier in the future. Converting a roadway to provide two separated ways indicating the footpaths on either side and then showing where footpaths are not available makes a lot of sense when also linked to the actual cycleways and other detail at a micro level. Once the step is taken to indicate either side of a road, adding simple things like bus stop in the right place is easy? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
Dave Stubbs wrote: A nice 'is_in' link to the 'unique_id' of the way so that one can actually find all the bus stops on a route ;) Looking at the way things have developed, is there any reason we can't set a tag for is_in, and then select a way, so that the key becomes is_in=# ? I don't think Relations has the necessary structure yet to be useful here? If you want to link two nodes together, then the easiest most obvious way of doing it is to use a way. A way is an object that links two or more nodes afterall. But you do not want to link isolated 'bus stop' nodes that way. If you want to link a node and a way, the a relation is your tool. This is exactly what relations do, they link and relate objects -- the advantage over putting IDs in tags is that any editor that supports relations in general will know about the connection as will the API, and the DB can maintain referential integrity so you don't end up with hanging links. You can do nice things with the API such as http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.5/way/way_id/relations -- which tells you what relations the way belongs to. I just look at the Relations page and see lots of 'Proposed' ... At the end of the day 'is_in' IS a relation so we are probably actually talking about the same thing, but there is a lot of 'talk' but no practical examples of actually using 'Relations' - at least none I have found yet? There needs to be a style guide to direct us as to how it is INTENDED that Relations should be used, and how a 'bus route' for example could be created from relationships between the way and possible nodes that relate to it. The current discussion is addressing small parts of the whole and not providing a blanket plan to go forward with? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
On Thursday 24 April 2008, Lester Caine wrote: I just look at the Relations page and see lots of 'Proposed' ... At the end of the day 'is_in' IS a relation so we are probably actually talking about the same thing, but there is a lot of 'talk' but no practical examples of actually using 'Relations' - at least none I have found yet? Relations are quite abundant already, the cycle routes are probably the most advanced by now. I've started the page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/WikiProject_Belgium/Conventions/Bus_and_tram_lines for Belgian tram and bus lines to give the tags and thought about this tagging scheme for halts: (note that terminus is the word we use for the turning point of buses or trams, I don't know the proper English word) * Give one terminus a role in the relation like terminus_1, the other terminus on the other side of the line is terminus_2 * The halts along the way get roles like halt_to_1 or halt_to_2 depending on which terminus they go to * Halts in both directions just get a halt role Obviously, it's not perfect yet, I guess somewhere in the world there will be some circular lines for example, with no terminus. Anyway, just brainstorming here to finally come up with a proper solution. Anyone with other ideas? Ben ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 9:19 PM, Dave Stubbs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:22 PM, Lester Caine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeffrey Martin wrote: I've made a decision for what I am going to do. If I wait until there is some standard way it will be a hassle to find all these stops later instead of putting them in now with all the other data, and I might loose my little scraps of paper. Here's my plan of action. I'm going to put a node on the exact location of each bus stop offset from the way. I don't want to loose that location data until I'm sure we want to throw it out. Putting a node on the way instead would essentially erase the location of the stops and shelters. If someone wants to come along later and put a node on the way or make some kind of association they can do that. That does seem to be the sensible way of doing it, in the absence of any other guidelines. What of cause is missing is some means of relating it easily to the way that then are actually linked to ? A nice 'is_in' link to the 'unique_id' of the way so that one can actually find all the bus stops on a route ;) Looking at the way things have developed, is there any reason we can't set a tag for is_in, and then select a way, so that the key becomes is_in=# ? I don't think Relations has the necessary structure yet to be useful here? If you want to link two nodes together, then the easiest most obvious way of doing it is to use a way. A way is an object that links two or more nodes afterall. If you want to link a node and a way, the a relation is your tool. This is exactly what relations do, they link and relate objects -- the advantage over putting IDs in tags is that any editor that supports relations in general will know about the connection as will the API, and the DB can maintain referential integrity so you don't end up with hanging links. You can do nice things with the API such as http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.5/way/way_id/relations -- which tells you what relations the way belongs to. Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk Short perpendicular ways leading to a bus shelter seems wrong to me. I'll read up on relations, but could you elaborate on how it might be used with bus shelters and stops? -- http://bowlad.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
That link is broken. Try: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Relations and http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/OSM_Protocol_Version_0.5 On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 9:19 PM, Dave Stubbs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:22 PM, Lester Caine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeffrey Martin wrote: I've made a decision for what I am going to do. If I wait until there is some standard way it will be a hassle to find all these stops later instead of putting them in now with all the other data, and I might loose my little scraps of paper. Here's my plan of action. I'm going to put a node on the exact location of each bus stop offset from the way. I don't want to loose that location data until I'm sure we want to throw it out. Putting a node on the way instead would essentially erase the location of the stops and shelters. If someone wants to come along later and put a node on the way or make some kind of association they can do that. That does seem to be the sensible way of doing it, in the absence of any other guidelines. What of cause is missing is some means of relating it easily to the way that then are actually linked to ? A nice 'is_in' link to the 'unique_id' of the way so that one can actually find all the bus stops on a route ;) Looking at the way things have developed, is there any reason we can't set a tag for is_in, and then select a way, so that the key becomes is_in=# ? I don't think Relations has the necessary structure yet to be useful here? If you want to link two nodes together, then the easiest most obvious way of doing it is to use a way. A way is an object that links two or more nodes afterall. If you want to link a node and a way, the a relation is your tool. This is exactly what relations do, they link and relate objects -- the advantage over putting IDs in tags is that any editor that supports relations in general will know about the connection as will the API, and the DB can maintain referential integrity so you don't end up with hanging links. You can do nice things with the API such as http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.5/way/way_id/relations -- which tells you what relations the way belongs to. Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk -- http://bowlad.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
How am I supposed to do bus stops? If two bus stops are on opposite sides of the road then I think maybe they can share a node? I found in some email that you can make little short service links. I don't like that. The bus pulls over to the side of the road where I'm at. Sometimes they aren't exactly across the street from each other. Where I'm at there are lots of wood and concrete bus shelters. On Sun, Aug 12, 2007 at 12:07 AM, Mike Collinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Excellent background information for basing our models. Thank you Peter. Mike At 07:21 AM 11/08/2007, Peter Miller wrote: The conventional way of handling Bus Stops in the public transport industry is to have a node for each individual point at which one can get on a vehicle, so if there are two bus stops on opposite sides of the road then they are represented as two nodes. If there are three bays in a row on one side of the road then they are represented a 3 nodes in a row. Every Bus Stop in the UK has a unique code, and this is sometimes printed on the bus stop itself. In the EU standards they are called 'Stop Points' (rather than Bus Stops) so they can cover buses, tram, rail, ferry planes etc. In railway stations there is a Stop Point for each Platform (and each bay in a bus station, each Gate for an Airport and each quay in a Ferry terminal). Groups of local Stop Points (as they are called) are then arranged into Stop Areas where they are very close to each other. These Stop Points are not within the road layer because Stop Points are a distinct dataset managed separately; they are then associated with a street, sometimes using the Street Name and sometimes based on proximity. I recommend that we use 'Bus Stop' and 'Stop Point' for this low-level purpose and construct entities as we need them. The database of all these points in the UK is called 'NaPTAN' (standing for 'National Public Transport Access Nodes'), there are about 350,000 of them, and keen people can find additional information here: http://www.naptan.org.uk/ A new CEN standard is in the process of being ratified, called IFOPT which can be used for describe much more complex transport interchanges, such as major airports and railways stations, detailing every corridor, lift, check-in desk escalator etc. CEN standards are used throughout the EU and beyond. http://www.naptan.org.uk/ifopt/ There is also a modelling standard for public transport in general published by CEN called transmodel which covers the modelling in general and is used behind most professional transport products used in Europe. www.transmodel.org Of course, I am not proposing that we 'implement' all of the above, but where we choose modelling approaches and terms for entities it would be sensible to choose the same names. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk -- http://bowlad.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
On 23 Apr 2008, at 17:45, Peter Miller wrote: The EU standard Transmodel defines a Stop Point as 'A POINT where passengers can board or alight from vehicles'. For bus stops this means a single pole, shelter etc and for a place where there are three poles for different services close together then there would be three entries. There are also places where buses stop where there is no physical infrastructure but where buses stop which also need Stop Points. In rural areas there might be a pole on one side of the road but buses stop in both directions, or in some places there is not infrastructure on either side of the road. For there are a number of Stop Points close to each other then these can be grouped into Stop Areas that are 'A group of STOP POINTs close to each other'. I suggest that we achieve this with a relationship call a 'Stop Area' is people are keen to model it. I know that Google models the bus stops as being on either side of the road. Personally, I believe that it is better to have one node per bus stop, even if they are close together in each direction. There is also a hailer zone, where there are no bus stops specifically. The driver just stops where it is safe to do so and passengers need to get on and off. For railway stations it can get more complicated as a platform can be made up of sub platforms (long trains stop at platform 4 and two short ones can stop at 4A and 4B etc). In this case I believe there should be a Stop Point for 4, 4A and 4B. http://www.transmodel.org/en/transmodel/gloss/s.htm Train platforms are so long that I think that they should be modeled as a way parallel to the railway line as rail=platform. I have done this for Stirling Station, and Edinburgh Park in West Edinburgh, if I remember correctly. This also means that you can model how you get on to and from the station platforms. It's all very well seeing a station there as a dot, but at high zoom you need to know how to get there from the surrounding roads. This interpretation is now being discussed as ISO level so is probably the one to go with. Are we agreed that this is the appropriate interpretation for the feature going forward. In which case shall I add this clarification and interpretation to the relevant OSM tag page? Btw, Someone might like to ask the DfT in the UK at some point for a copy of the DB they have with the location of over 350,000 bus stops with their names and the name of the associated street. I know the people but it might be better if it came from someone else, possibly from the foundation? Go ahead and ask. Watch though as the data might be tainted, as it may be derived from ordanance survey data. Regards, Peter Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 20:03:14 +0900 From: Jeffrey Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops To: Mike Collinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 How am I supposed to do bus stops? If two bus stops are on opposite sides of the road then I think maybe they can share a node? I found in some email that you can make little short service links. I don't like that. The bus pulls over to the side of the road where I'm at. Sometimes they aren't exactly across the street from each other. Where I'm at there are lots of wood and concrete bus shelters. On Sun, Aug 12, 2007 at 12:07 AM, Mike Collinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Excellent background information for basing our models. Thank you Peter. Mike At 07:21 AM 11/08/2007, Peter Miller wrote: The conventional way of handling Bus Stops in the public transport industry is to have a node for each individual point at which one can get on a vehicle, so if there are two bus stops on opposite sides of the road then they are represented as two nodes. If there are three bays in a row on one side of the road then they are represented a 3 nodes in a row. Every Bus Stop in the UK has a unique code, and this is sometimes printed on the bus stop itself. In the EU standards they are called 'Stop Points' (rather than Bus Stops) so they can cover buses, tram, rail, ferry planes etc. In railway stations there is a Stop Point for each Platform (and each bay in a bus station, each Gate for an Airport and each quay in a Ferry terminal). Groups of local Stop Points (as they are called) are then arranged into Stop Areas where they are very close to each other. These Stop Points are not within the road layer because Stop Points are a distinct dataset managed separately; they are then associated with a street, sometimes using the Street Name and sometimes based on proximity. I recommend that we use 'Bus Stop' and 'Stop Point' for this low- level purpose and construct entities as we need them. The database of all these points in the UK is called
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
Comments in line -Original Message- From: Shaun McDonald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 24 April 2008 00:22 To: Peter Miller Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops On 23 Apr 2008, at 17:45, Peter Miller wrote: The EU standard Transmodel defines a Stop Point as 'A POINT where passengers can board or alight from vehicles'. For bus stops this means a single pole, shelter etc and for a place where there are three poles for different services close together then there would be three entries. There are also places where buses stop where there is no physical infrastructure but where buses stop which also need Stop Points. In rural areas there might be a pole on one side of the road but buses stop in both directions, or in some places there is not infrastructure on either side of the road. For there are a number of Stop Points close to each other then these can be grouped into Stop Areas that are 'A group of STOP POINTs close to each other'. I suggest that we achieve this with a relationship call a 'Stop Area' is people are keen to model it. I know that Google models the bus stops as being on either side of the road. Personally, I believe that it is better to have one node per bus stop, even if they are close together in each direction. To be clear, are you saying that Google say that in the case of two bus stops nearly opposite each other on either sides of the road then these should be encoded as two separate entities? If so they are equivalent to a Transmodel Stop Point. Personally I didn't find Google's description too clear on the matter and I suspect that there may be some data suppliers who interpret the GT stop concept as a Stop Point (two separate entities) and other data suppliers who will interpret it as a Stop Area (one entity). http://code.google.com/transit/spec/transit_feed_specification.html There are debates on the GT email group at the moment about how to code station entrances and stop Points that are distant from the road etc so their data model is still evolving and is probably not as good a reference for us as the EU standards which worked this out 10 years ago. There is also a hailer zone, where there are no bus stops specifically. The driver just stops where it is safe to do so and passengers need to get on and off. Sure, it would make sense to define a Hail and Ride section as being part of a length of road as an attribute of the road, although one would need to allow for the case where it was only buses in one direction that stopped. Hail and Ride is always the delinquent 'awkward' child in the mix, and will require special attention. In the UK standards there would be one notional Stop Point for each direction for a hail-and-ride section. For railway stations it can get more complicated as a platform can be made up of sub platforms (long trains stop at platform 4 and two short ones can stop at 4A and 4B etc). In this case I believe there should be a Stop Point for 4, 4A and 4B. http://www.transmodel.org/en/transmodel/gloss/s.htm Train platforms are so long that I think that they should be modeled as a way parallel to the railway line as rail=platform. I have done this for Stirling Station, and Edinburgh Park in West Edinburgh, if I remember correctly. This also means that you can model how you get on to and from the station platforms. It's all very well seeing a station there as a dot, but at high zoom you need to know how to get there from the surrounding roads. Agreed. In the EU model there is a distinction between the logical 'Stop Point' (a point feature) and the physical platform (an area) and the track (a line). There would be a logical Stop Points that would be used within the schedules (relating to platform 4, 4A and 4B in my example), and this will separately be associated with a physical bit of the world (a platform). One platform can of course also serve two separate 'tracks'. There may also be one or more Boarding Points associated with the platform associated with where to stand to enter the train through a particular door for one's booked seat. As I mentioned in an earlier post the physical design of the station is described in the IFOPT standard. Incidentally platforms are called Quays for ferry services and are similar to Gates in airports. In the EU standard they are all of these are called Quays. http://www.naptan.org.uk/ifopt/ I am interesting in the idea of how OSM might model larger transport interchanges, although I think walking round Kings Cross Station going systematically up and down all the escalators making notes and taking photos might get one escorted off the premises! This interpretation is now being discussed as ISO level so is probably the one to go with. Are we agreed that this is the appropriate interpretation for the feature going forward. In which case shall I add this clarification
