Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
2013/2/23 Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com: I agree that there is a need for this, and I am happy with the simplicity of using junction=yes and name=*. If you don't submit a trac request, I will, but the link to trac is not working for me: trac.openstreetmap.org/query?component=mapnikorder=iddesc=1 I'd prefer junction!=no instead of junction=yes as this will be more compatible with what there already is in the db (e.g. junction=roundabout). cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/2/23 Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com: I agree that there is a need for this, and I am happy with the simplicity of using junction=yes and name=*. If you don't submit a trac request, I will, but the link to trac is not working for me: trac.openstreetmap.org/query?component=mapnikorder=iddesc=1 I'd prefer junction!=no instead of junction=yes as this will be more compatible with what there already is in the db (e.g. junction=roundabout). cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk When would junction=no be used? When one way passes over another on a viaduct without actually connecting? -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
2013/2/23 John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com: When would junction=no be used? When one way passes over another on a viaduct without actually connecting? yes, I also never used junction=no, this was a just in case-idea, practically you can also read it as junction=*. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
Hello, I just wondered if there is something productive in the making concerning the crossroad names, or did it somehow end without anything? How can I participate? Thanks. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 05:54:16 Hans Schmidt wrote: Hello, I just wondered if there is something productive in the making concerning the crossroad names, or did it somehow end without anything? How can I participate? Thanks. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk If you want OSM Mapnik to render something differently you need to submit a trac ticket. The instructions are here (3rd paragraph): http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mapnik I agree that there is a need for this, and I am happy with the simplicity of using junction=yes and name=*. If you don't submit a trac request, I will, but the link to trac is not working for me: trac.openstreetmap.org/query?component=mapnikorder=iddesc=1 Best wishes, Andrew ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
2013/2/15 Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com So, what I want is for Mapnik to render a label at a node if the there is a junction=yes tag (and name=* tag) present. This has been stated in the wiki for a long time. Or better, if there is a junction=* and name=*. Except when junction=no. What about when a junction is a roundabout? Should that be rendered the Japanese way (a box with letters in the middle of the roundabout) or the European way (words going along the street)? Or are we going to have different rendering in different parts of world? Janko ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
Am 15.02.2013 00:24, schrieb Andrew Errington: junction=crossroads would be fine, but it doesn't add any information. -1 Following the general approach to handle *=yes as kind of a fallback for cases where more detailled information is missing junction=crossroads in fact would add information. Sure: There's not much reason to tag junction=yes anywhere as a fallback as these kinds of junctions are derived out of the fact of three or more streets (to distinct from the OSM way type) joining at a common node, but on the other hand one could (!) interpret that as the untagged default here. junction=yes is therefore IMHO worse than junction=crossroads or junction=intersection. junction=yield is no good because it does not specify which direction of approach should yield. junction=stop is also no good, for the same reason. +0.5 junction=yield/stop is not enough, but better than nothing, and it would allow to search for nearby stop signs to determine that missing information perhaps. Is there a good approach yet how to match stop signs to the intersection they belong to? And if I'm at the street that has the right of way the software would have to look around at every intersection if there are stop or yield signs, as it's not obvious that there's a right of way (and not right before left or vice versa, which usually should be the default (at least in traffic, not necessarily in OSM), I think). junction=stop/yield on the opposite would say: hey, here you definitively have to look about right of way signs around. So, what I want is for Mapnik to render a label at a node if the there is a junction=yes tag (and name=* tag) present. This has been stated in the wiki for a long time. agreed (while I would prefer tagging junction=intersection nevertheless). regards Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 9:28 AM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: Or better, if there is a junction=* and name=*. Except when junction=no. +1 Like the dozen building or bridge values. The wiki says junction=yes which is the easiest. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
Am 15.02.2013 09:28, schrieb Janko Mihelić: What about when a junction is a roundabout? Should that be rendered the Japanese way (a box with letters in the middle of the roundabout) or the European way (words going along the street)? Or are we going to have different rendering in different parts of world? Well, first the question is if there are any roundabouts in Japan (I’ve never seen any, but that doesn’t mean that there are none). Second, for some other problems it would also be nice to go with a rendering according to region, meaning that the crossroads maybe are only displayed in Japan. If we had something like that (Country specific rendering), we could tackle some other problems (the ugly fonts in Japan, for example). Well, but this is now just something which came to my mind right now. @Topic: I would also vote for junction=yes and name=* This seems to be the easiest. Basically, what we need is that the renderer understands that the name should be displayed in the box, right? So why not just go with junction=yes? This basically just does the job, right? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 3:02 PM, Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.comwrote: I don't think that's an appropriate way to name it. It's not a locality, nor is it really a place. It's a junction, with a name. I think junction=yes and name=* is the best way to record it, the next step would be to get it rendered. Where would you place this node if it is a more complex crossing? Like a crossing of 2 roads with dual carriage ways? Greets, Floris ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
2013/2/14 Floris Looijesteijn o...@floris.nu: On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 3:02 PM, Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think that's an appropriate way to name it. It's not a locality, nor is it really a place. It's a junction, with a name. I think junction=yes and name=* is the best way to record it, the next step would be to get it rendered. Where would you place this node if it is a more complex crossing? Like a crossing of 2 roads with dual carriage ways? you could draw a polygon around the crossing with junction=*, name=* and area=yes cheers Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
Where would you place this node if it is a more complex crossing? Like a crossing of 2 roads with dual carriage ways? I just saw one such case in Tokyo yesterday : http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/254367454 Here the two nodes with traffic_signals tags carry the name (I suppose it's the name of this crossing but I don't read japanese...) you could draw a polygon around the crossing with junction=*, name=* and area=yes Ok, seems right for me. cheers Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 17:46:45 Floris Looijesteijn wrote: On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 3:02 PM, Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.comwrote: I don't think that's an appropriate way to name it. It's not a locality, nor is it really a place. It's a junction, with a name. I think junction=yes and name=* is the best way to record it, the next step would be to get it rendered. Where would you place this node if it is a more complex crossing? Like a crossing of 2 roads with dual carriage ways? That is a very good question. If we have a normal crossroads junction (or T) then there is a single node at the point where the two ways cross (or meet). If we have a crossroads with dual carriageways then there are four nodes where the roads cross. In Korea we also have named junctions at overpasses, so the junction name is where the two roads cross (or meet) but they physically don't join because one road is on a bridge over the other, and there are sliproads to move between them. The first case is very easy. The single node is tagged junction=yes, and name=* The second case we could tag all four nodes. Or put a single node in the middle, but then it's not obviously related to the junction. Or put all four nodes in a relation. Or draw a closed way (area) covering the junction. In the third case we could tag the four nodes at the beginning of each slip road. Or put the nodes in a relation. Or draw a big area covering the entire junction. Obviously the same applies T-junctions but there are only three nodes. I could post this question on the talk-ko list and ask what Korean users would expect to see. Unfortunately, I don't think anyone is using the data, so it's hard to know exactly what to do until someone uses it and says 'yes, this is great', or 'no, this won't do'. Most of the junctions in Korea /are/ named as free-standing name nodes that were brought in in a big import a while ago. When I am mapping I usually cross-reference the name node with a photo of the sign from the junction and then merge the name node into the physical junction node. Having written this, I think that a combination of single nodes where two ways cross, and relations where dual-carriageways cross or there is a bridge and slip roads would work well. Best wishes, Andrew ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
On 2013-02-14 11:59, Andrew Errington wrote: In Korea we also have named junctions at overpasses, so the junction name is where the two roads cross (or meet) but they physically don't join because one road is on a bridge over the other, and there are sliproads to move between them. In the third case we could tag the four nodes at the beginning of each slip road. Or put the nodes in a relation. Or draw a big area covering the entire junction. Junction names on exits or junctions of motorways is common practise: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.3934lon=6.12683zoom=15layers=M (Knooppunt Zaarderheiken is the name tag, e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/42529258) I could post this question on the talk-ko list and ask what Korean users would expect to see. And talk-jp for Japan. I see little use in discussing how we would like to do it. openstreetmap.jp has a map, but it looks to be the standard slippy map. Has noone there seen this as a big enough problem to make their own rendering and start mapping the junctions? Regards, Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
On 02/13/2013 08:03 PM, Paul Norman wrote: How would it work when the intersection also has traffic lights? I know that there will always be some cases where there are tag key collisions but it seems that they will be *very* common in this case between highway=junction and highway=traffic_signals That is one more argument in favour of tagging traffic signals at the position of each traffic signal's stop line instead of abstracting their existence into on single tag at the junction. So let's make good use of the perfectly good highway=junction and let's put highway=traffic_signals where they belong ! ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 20:08:11 Maarten Deen wrote: On 2013-02-14 11:59, Andrew Errington wrote: In Korea we also have named junctions at overpasses, so the junction name is where the two roads cross (or meet) but they physically don't join because one road is on a bridge over the other, and there are sliproads to move between them. In the third case we could tag the four nodes at the beginning of each slip road. Or put the nodes in a relation. Or draw a big area covering the entire junction. Junction names on exits or junctions of motorways is common practise: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.3934lon=6.12683zoom=15layers=M (Knooppunt Zaarderheiken is the name tag, e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/42529258) I could post this question on the talk-ko list and ask what Korean users would expect to see. And talk-jp for Japan. I see little use in discussing how we would like to do it. openstreetmap.jp has a map, but it looks to be the standard slippy map. Has noone there seen this as a big enough problem to make their own rendering and start mapping the junctions? Ah, yes, I already do put the name of the junction on the motorway exit, but I have not noticed if this would apply to other named junctions (they are signed differently but conceptually they might be the same). It would be simple enough to adopt this for lower classes of road. One of the problems we have in Japan and Korea is that they already have awesome free maps online. Much better than Google, with lots of features and resources, and everyone can use them to full effect on their smartphones. That in conjunction with satnavs in every car means that OSM has no purpose other than a pleasant hobby here, which I am very happy to continue. One day someone will make use of it and release a killer app that everyone will want to use. Best wishes, Andrew ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
2013/2/14 Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org: On 02/13/2013 08:03 PM, Paul Norman wrote: How would it work when the intersection also has traffic lights? I know that there will always be some cases where there are tag key collisions but it seems that they will be *very* common in this case between highway=junction and highway=traffic_signals That is one more argument in favour of tagging traffic signals at the position of each traffic signal's stop line instead of abstracting their existence into on single tag at the junction. So let's make good use of the perfectly good highway=junction and let's put highway=traffic_signals where they belong ! sorry, I think I missed the argument why highway=junction is better than the established junction=* ? Please keep in mind that the only established value for highway seems to be motorway_junction, while highway=junction is currently used a poor 123 times. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
On 02/14/2013 12:53 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2013/2/14 Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org: On 02/13/2013 08:03 PM, Paul Norman wrote: How would it work when the intersection also has traffic lights? I know that there will always be some cases where there are tag key collisions but it seems that they will be *very* common in this case between highway=junction and highway=traffic_signals That is one more argument in favour of tagging traffic signals at the position of each traffic signal's stop line instead of abstracting their existence into on single tag at the junction. So let's make good use of the perfectly good highway=junction and let's put highway=traffic_signals where they belong ! sorry, I think I missed the argument why highway=junction is better than the established junction=* ? Please keep in mind that the only established value for highway seems to be motorway_junction, while highway=junction is currently used a poor 123 times. Actually, I was fixated on highway=traffic_signals and got carried away in sort of hijacking the thread to mention its proper positioning while losing the point of the discussion... My position in regards to highway=junction vs. junction=* is neutral - though I consider the everything=yes trend as namespace pollution. So : - junction=* if there is enough diversity to justify that namespace - highway=junction if junction=yes is going to represent most of the junction=* space ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 9:37 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/2/14 Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org: though I consider the everything=yes trend as namespace pollution. So : - junction=* if there is enough diversity to justify that namespace - highway=junction if junction=yes is going to represent most of the junction=* space there is no risk that yes would be the most used value, currently more than 95% (or 266000) of the values are roundabout. http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/junction#values junction=crossroads perhaps? Toby ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
On 02/14/2013 05:12 PM, Toby Murray wrote: On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 9:37 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/2/14 Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org: though I consider the everything=yes trend as namespace pollution. So : - junction=* if there is enough diversity to justify that namespace - highway=junction if junction=yes is going to represent most of the junction=* space there is no risk that yes would be the most used value, currently more than 95% (or 266000) of the values are roundabout. http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/junction#values junction=crossroads perhaps? Seems reasonable. So we would have at least... - junction=roundabout - junction=crossroads (unspecified crossroads) And a few more candidates... - junction=yield (to signify an uncontrolled crossroads where the lack of traffic signals in Openstreetmap is not mere neglect) - junction=stop (stop-controlled crossroads - which could be part of a relation linking the junction node with the positions of the actual stop signs) - junction=traffic_signals (which could be part of a relation linking the junction node with the positions of the actual traffic signals) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 02:23:08 Jean-Marc Liotier wrote: On 02/14/2013 05:12 PM, Toby Murray wrote: On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 9:37 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/2/14 Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org: though I consider the everything=yes trend as namespace pollution. So : - junction=* if there is enough diversity to justify that namespace - highway=junction if junction=yes is going to represent most of the junction=* space there is no risk that yes would be the most used value, currently more than 95% (or 266000) of the values are roundabout. http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/junction#values junction=crossroads perhaps? Seems reasonable. So we would have at least... - junction=roundabout - junction=crossroads (unspecified crossroads) And a few more candidates... - junction=yield (to signify an uncontrolled crossroads where the lack of traffic signals in Openstreetmap is not mere neglect) - junction=stop (stop-controlled crossroads - which could be part of a relation linking the junction node with the positions of the actual stop signs) - junction=traffic_signals (which could be part of a relation linking the junction node with the positions of the actual traffic signals) I disagree. This is too complicated. The problem is to specify that a junction has a name, and to disambiguate these from any other junction. Right now we have a mechanism for this when the junction is a roundabout: junction=roundabout name=* In the wiki is was stated that named junctions can be marked with: junction=yes name=* However, Mapnik does not render a label for this. I'm not sure if any other renderer does. Mapnik *does* render a label for a named roundabout. To add a junction name we could just add a name=* tag to the junction node, but then there is no hint about what the name means. So, by adding junction=yes it indicates that this *is* a junction, and the name is the name of the junction. It's simple and obvious. junction=crossroads would be fine, but it doesn't add any information. junction=yield is no good because it does not specify which direction of approach should yield. junction=stop is also no good, for the same reason. So, what I want is for Mapnik to render a label at a node if the there is a junction=yes tag (and name=* tag) present. This has been stated in the wiki for a long time. Thank you, Andrew ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 21:57:56 Hans Schmidt wrote: Hello, Is there some way to display the names of crossroads on the OSM map? This adress scheme is more important than street names in Japan, but currently, OSM does not display it. In consequence, it is very hard to locate something on the OSM map in Japan. There are almost no street names, and because the names of the crossroads are not displayed, you don’t have any idea where you are. I would also like this, for Korea. Obviously it's a rendering issue, but it would be nice if the map on osm.org would have this. I tried adding a junction=yes tag to a named junction as described in the wiki[1], but it would not render a label for me. In Korea most junctions have large signs with their names. I showed the osm.org map to a Korean friend who was looking very hard for a named junction to orient themselves with the map, so it's quite important for Korean map users. Best wishes, Andrew [1]http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:junction ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
Can help me better understand the naming of junctions. Do junction names have a direction attribute? How are they used to give directions with no street names? On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 5:22 AM, Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 21:57:56 Hans Schmidt wrote: Hello, Is there some way to display the names of crossroads on the OSM map? This adress scheme is more important than street names in Japan, but currently, OSM does not display it. In consequence, it is very hard to locate something on the OSM map in Japan. There are almost no street names, and because the names of the crossroads are not displayed, you don’t have any idea where you are. I would also like this, for Korea. Obviously it's a rendering issue, but it would be nice if the map on osm.org would have this. I tried adding a junction=yes tag to a named junction as described in the wiki[1], but it would not render a label for me. In Korea most junctions have large signs with their names. I showed the osm.org map to a Korean friend who was looking very hard for a named junction to orient themselves with the map, so it's quite important for Korean map users. Best wishes, Andrew [1]http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:junction ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Clifford OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
Am 13.02.2013 14:22, schrieb Andrew Errington: I would also like this, for Korea. Obviously it's a rendering issue, but it would be nice if the map on osm.org would have this. I tried adding a junction=yes tag to a named junction as described in the wiki[1], but it would not render a label for me. In Korea most junctions have large signs with their names. I showed the osm.org map to a Korean friend who was looking very hard for a named junction to orient themselves with the map, so it's quite important for Korean map users. Best wishes, Andrew Yes. Generally I think that non-Western map styles are completely neglected in OSM, but I have no idea to change that. How can we get in touch with the people who define the rendering styles? Somehow it seems to me (from the perspective of an ordinary user) that they are some kind of “gods”, who choose abritarily what is done and what is not. Well, this time I try not to give up until this is done :) It must be very frustating for Korean and Japanese users to map, but seeing that their efforts are basically completely useless on OSM, because the map will not display anything which is needed for a usable map in these areas. Concerning tagging: I don’t think that there should be some special tag. The node which intersects both roads should just get a name property. JOSM displays the name there, and I think this is how it should be displayed on osm.org, too. Hans ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
Am 13.02.2013 14:34, schrieb Clifford Snow: Can help me better understand the naming of junctions. Do junction names have a direction attribute? How are they used to give directions with no street names? Take a look at this Google maps example from some small suburb of Tokyo: http://goo.gl/maps/4j6c8 somehow in the middle you will see a a crossroad labelled 西原自然公園前 (sorry, no English, this is read as “Nishihara Shizen Kōen Mae”). This is just it. The crossroad has a name which is displayed in the center of it. No direction or something like that. Hans ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
Hi there, My experience in Japan is that the junctions are named, but not oriented. You give directions by saying 'go down this street and turn left at NAME junction'. Or 'take the third right after NAME junction'. Or if you are looking at a map, some junction names are shown, which makes it possible to follow a route by looking up for signs, and carefully counting the streets you pass. The addressing system in Japan is not based on the crossroads name however. It's a block-based system. The block has a name, and sub-blocks are numbered, and entrances are numbered around the edge of the block (I'm skipping a lot of detail[1]). In Korea, again, junctions are not oriented. Just named. If you are driving, your satnav will announce the junction name that you are to take. If you look out, you will see a sign with the name. Again, with maps, the junction names are printed, which makes it easy to look around, see the signs, and locate yourself on the map. The Korean address system used to be block-based, but now uses named streets with odd/even numbered houses on opposite sides of the road. Best wishes, Andrew [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_addressing_system On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 22:34:00 Clifford Snow wrote: Can help me better understand the naming of junctions. Do junction names have a direction attribute? How are they used to give directions with no street names? On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 5:22 AM, Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.comwrote: On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 21:57:56 Hans Schmidt wrote: Hello, Is there some way to display the names of crossroads on the OSM map? This adress scheme is more important than street names in Japan, but currently, OSM does not display it. In consequence, it is very hard to locate something on the OSM map in Japan. There are almost no street names, and because the names of the crossroads are not displayed, you don’t have any idea where you are. I would also like this, for Korea. Obviously it's a rendering issue, but it would be nice if the map on osm.org would have this. I tried adding a junction=yes tag to a named junction as described in the wiki[1], but it would not render a label for me. In Korea most junctions have large signs with their names. I showed the osm.org map to a Korean friend who was looking very hard for a named junction to orient themselves with the map, so it's quite important for Korean map users. Best wishes, Andrew [1]http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:junction ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
On 13 Feb 2013 12:59, Hans Schmidt z0idb...@gmx.de wrote: Hello, Is there some way to display the names of crossroads on the OSM map? place=locality Kevin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 22:56:40 Kevin Peat wrote: On 13 Feb 2013 12:59, Hans Schmidt z0idb...@gmx.de wrote: Hello, Is there some way to display the names of crossroads on the OSM map? place=locality Kevin I don't think that's an appropriate way to name it. It's not a locality, nor is it really a place. It's a junction, with a name. I think junction=yes and name=* is the best way to record it, the next step would be to get it rendered. Best wishes, Andrew ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
place=locality Looks like tagging for the renderer to me, although I am not a resident of Japan or Korea. As it is the rendering that is not working as expected, a better resolution would be to change the renderer so that it displayed junction names. Joseph On 13 February 2013 13:56, Kevin Peat k...@k3v.eu wrote: On 13 Feb 2013 12:59, Hans Schmidt z0idb...@gmx.de wrote: Hello, Is there some way to display the names of crossroads on the OSM map? place=locality Kevin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 22:44:07 Hans Schmidt wrote: Am 13.02.2013 14:22, schrieb Andrew Errington: I would also like this, for Korea. Obviously it's a rendering issue, but it would be nice if the map on osm.org would have this. I tried adding a junction=yes tag to a named junction as described in the wiki[1], but it would not render a label for me. In Korea most junctions have large signs with their names. I showed the osm.org map to a Korean friend who was looking very hard for a named junction to orient themselves with the map, so it's quite important for Korean map users. Best wishes, Andrew Yes. Generally I think that non-Western map styles are completely neglected in OSM, but I have no idea to change that. How can we get in touch with the people who define the rendering styles? Somehow it seems to me (from the perspective of an ordinary user) that they are some kind of “gods”, who choose abritarily what is done and what is not. Well, this time I try not to give up until this is done :) It must be very frustating for Korean and Japanese users to map, but seeing that their efforts are basically completely useless on OSM, because the map will not display anything which is needed for a usable map in these areas. Concerning tagging: I don’t think that there should be some special tag. The node which intersects both roads should just get a name property. JOSM displays the name there, and I think this is how it should be displayed on osm.org, too. Hans ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk You could put a request in Trac: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mapnik (The instructions are in the third paragraph To report bugs or graphical suggestions...) Best wishes, Andrew ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
2013/2/13 Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com I don't think that's an appropriate way to name it. It's not a locality, nor is it really a place. It's a junction, with a name. I think junction=yes and name=* is the best way to record it, the next step would be to get it rendered. I agree, it's a name of the junction, not of the area around it. How is it best rendered? With a little rectangle around it like Google Maps? Is there a usual way of rendering that? Janko ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
2013/2/13 Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com: On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 22:56:40 Kevin Peat wrote: On 13 Feb 2013 12:59, Hans Schmidt z0idb...@gmx.de wrote: Hello, Is there some way to display the names of crossroads on the OSM map? place=locality Kevin I don't think that's an appropriate way to name it. It's not a locality, nor is it really a place. It's a junction, with a name. I think junction=yes and name=* is the best way to record it, the next step would be to get it rendered. +1 seems logical to use the junction-key for this together with name. Maybe evaluating just yes would not be sufficient though, I imagine there are also other (specific) types of junctions like junction=roundabout. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
2013/2/13 Joseph Reeves iknowjos...@gmail.com: place=locality Looks like tagging for the renderer to me, although I am not a resident of Japan or Korea. +1, place=locality is generally a generic placeholder, which should/could be substituted by the time we dig deeper into toponyms and develop more specific classes. (At the time we use place=locality for nearly every named place which isn't a settlement). cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 8:44 AM, Hans Schmidt z0idb...@gmx.de wrote: Yes. Generally I think that non-Western map styles are completely neglected in OSM, but I have no idea to change that. How can we get in touch with the people who define the rendering styles? Somehow it seems to me (from the perspective of an ordinary user) that they are some kind of “gods”, who choose abritarily what is done and what is not. The standard OSM.org map style is actually completely neglected, not just for non-Western users. Several people have converted the style to CartoCSS [1], which is much friendlier to edit. Before talking about getting Japanese/Korean style features rendered on the OSM.org standard map, someone should first demonstrate it is possible, but making sure an appropriate tagging system is in place and creating a map style. For this last part definitely look into TileMill, which can also load the openstreetmap-carto style. -Josh [1]: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
On 13 Feb 2013 14:20, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote +1, place=locality is generally a generic placeholder, which should/could be substituted by the time we dig deeper into toponyms and develop more specific classes... Well a place is just a named geographical location and I believe this tag combination is in common usage for named junctions [it certainly is in my part of GB where almost every crossroads is named] which as usual with OSM trumps all those people trying to create their idealised tagging schemes. Be sure to let everyone know when you have developed your classes ;] Kevin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
The thing with the UK is that you get places named after junctions - Church Cross, or whatever. That may well be a locality, but it's not the same as naming the junction. That seems to be the difference with these Japan / Korea examples. Joseph On 13 February 2013 14:37, Kevin Peat k...@k3v.eu wrote: On 13 Feb 2013 14:20, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote +1, place=locality is generally a generic placeholder, which should/could be substituted by the time we dig deeper into toponyms and develop more specific classes... Well a place is just a named geographical location and I believe this tag combination is in common usage for named junctions [it certainly is in my part of GB where almost every crossroads is named] which as usual with OSM trumps all those people trying to create their idealised tagging schemes. Be sure to let everyone know when you have developed your classes ;] Kevin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 9:02 AM, Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.comwrote: I think junction=yes and name=* is the best way to record it, the next step would be to get it rendered. Let's not add to the everything=yes approach to tagging but go with an existing key - highway seems appropriate. In fact highway=junction seems to already be in use for this purpose with ~123 occurences. Overpass Turbo seach for highway=junction nodes: http://goo.gl/Za5oX -- AJ Ashton ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
I'm starting to wonder if something could be adapted from the cycleway node style network tagging. On Feb 13, 2013 8:41 AM, Joseph Reeves iknowjos...@gmail.com wrote: The thing with the UK is that you get places named after junctions - Church Cross, or whatever. That may well be a locality, but it's not the same as naming the junction. That seems to be the difference with these Japan / Korea examples. Joseph On 13 February 2013 14:37, Kevin Peat k...@k3v.eu wrote: On 13 Feb 2013 14:20, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote +1, place=locality is generally a generic placeholder, which should/could be substituted by the time we dig deeper into toponyms and develop more specific classes... Well a place is just a named geographical location and I believe this tag combination is in common usage for named junctions [it certainly is in my part of GB where almost every crossroads is named] which as usual with OSM trumps all those people trying to create their idealised tagging schemes. Be sure to let everyone know when you have developed your classes ;] Kevin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 9:56 AM, AJ Ashton aj.ash...@gmail.com wrote: Let's not add to the everything=yes approach to tagging but go with an existing key - highway seems appropriate. In fact highway=junction seems to already be in use for this purpose with ~123 occurences. Or nevermind, I guess junction already has a wider tagging scheme. Still I wonder what a better option than yes is. -- AJ Ashton ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
place=junction? That would emphasize that a named junction is commonly used as a place to indicate nearby locations. We already have place=farm, which is practically the same... just thinking aloud. Am 13.02.2013, 15:37 Uhr, schrieb Kevin Peat k...@k3v.eu: On 13 Feb 2013 14:20, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote +1, place=locality is generally a generic placeholder, which should/could be substituted by the time we dig deeper into toponyms and develop more specific classes... Well a place is just a named geographical location and I believe this tag combination is in common usage for named junctions [it certainly is in my part of GB where almost every crossroads is named] which as usual with OSM trumps all those people trying to create their idealised tagging schemes. Be sure to let everyone know when you have developed your classes ;] Kevin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
Andrew Errington writes: I think junction=yes and name=* is the best way to record it, the next step would be to get it rendered. This is the way I also tag it in Thailand. junction=yes and name=*. Stephan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
AJ Ashton writes: On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 9:02 AM, Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.comwrote: Let's not add to the everything=yes approach to tagging but go with an existing key - highway seems appropriate. In fact highway=junction seems to already be in use for this purpose with ~123 occurences. junction=yes together with a name is there over 2000 times. I have not checked many, but all I checked seem to be named junctions: http://overpass-turbo.eu/?Q=node%5B%22junction%22%3D%22yes%22%5D%5B%22name%2 2%5D%3Bout%20qt%3B%0A Stephan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
On 13/02/2013 15:03, AJ Ashton wrote: On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 9:56 AM, AJ Ashton aj.ash...@gmail.com mailto:aj.ash...@gmail.com wrote: Let's not add to the everything=yes approach to tagging but go with an existing key - highway seems appropriate. In fact highway=junction seems to already be in use for this purpose with ~123 occurences. Or nevermind, I guess junction already has a wider tagging scheme. Still I wonder what a better option than yes is. You could use something like junction=crossroads or junction=t, to specify what sort of junction it is. Though this seems somewhat pointless, as the fact that its a crossroads or T-junction should be obvious from the geometry of the ways. highway=junction would conflict with other highway tags. eg many T-junctions or crossroads are also tagged with highway=traffic_signals. Craig ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
2013/2/13 Kevin Peat k...@k3v.eu: Be sure to let everyone know when you have developed your classes ;] we won't have to do this all at once (like always in OSM). One class that there could be is: junction cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
Named roundabouts is also ordinary : junction=roundabout + name=* So junction=yes + name=* looks a bit strange but it's by far better than a highway key on nodes and more consistent with other junctions tagging. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
Am 13.02.2013 14:44, schrieb Hans Schmidt: Concerning tagging: I don’t think that there should be some special tag. The node which intersects both roads should just get a name property. JOSM displays the name there, and I think this is how it should be displayed on osm.org, too. Agreed for no special name tag, but please use highway=junction + name=whatever in combination instead of the name tag alone. regards Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
From: Peter Wendorff [mailto:wendo...@uni-paderborn.de] Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 10:21 AM To: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads Am 13.02.2013 14:44, schrieb Hans Schmidt: Concerning tagging: I don’t think that there should be some special tag. The node which intersects both roads should just get a name property. JOSM displays the name there, and I think this is how it should be displayed on osm.org, too. Agreed for no special name tag, but please use highway=junction + name=whatever in combination instead of the name tag alone. How would it work when the intersection also has traffic lights? I know that there will always be some cases where there are tag key collisions but it seems that they will be *very* common in this case between highway=junction and highway=traffic_signals ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
Am 13.02.2013 19:21, schrieb Peter Wendorff: Agreed for no special name tag, but please use highway=junction + name=whatever in combination instead of the name tag alone. Yes, in retrospect, this is really better. Am 13.02.2013 15:10, schrieb Janko Mihelić: How is it best rendered? With a little rectangle around it like Google Maps? Is there a usual way of rendering that? I have another street atlas (an oldschool printed book with pages) which renders it as a blue rectangle box with the name in it. So I guess some kind of box would be nice. Bing Maps also has a box (there it is blue font in white rectangle). Am 13.02.2013 20:03, schrieb Paul Norman: How would it work when the intersection also has traffic lights? I know that there will always be some cases where there are tag key collisions but it seems that they will be*very* common in this case between highway=junction and highway=traffic_signals Yes, actually the crossroads I tagged before all have traffic lights (I would even presume this is the more common case, because only the major crossroads have names, and they tend to have traffic lights - there may be exceptions, though). Nice to see the discussion going on :) Let's hope that there is a change in rendering :) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads
Hi All, We also have many cross-road or T-junctions junctions in the United Kingdom that have names. Particularly in rural areas where early fingerpost signs still exist: Devon: I believe I am right in saying that the name on the column is the junction name. I seem to remember that I've been provided driving instructions such as turn left at xyz junction. Here's an example, but they're easy to find if you zoom in on Google StreetView in a more rural location you should stumble across them almost straight away. http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2857741 http://www.flickr.com/photos/tollhouses/5904146435/in/photostream/ Dorset: Seems to put the junction name in the roundel at the top: http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=File:Hell_Corner_-_Dorset_-_Coppermine_-_21506.jpg Rob p.s. junction=* and name=* seems suitable to me (as we do with roundabouts) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
