Re: [OSM-talk] Involving Cyclists in OSM

[Andy Mabbett]

On 9 December 2015 at 09:02, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:

> Strava

There have been recent news stories that Stravia's (optional, but
default) route-logging may pose a security risk:


http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/12/22/it_manager_loses_bikes_after_cycling_app_pinpoints_home/

> CycleStreets

+! to that; it's superb - I particularly like that it lets you choose
between fast and quiet routes, or an intermediate grade.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Involving Cyclists in OSM

[Clifford Snow]

I want to thank everyone for there input. Our meeting with one of the
directors of Cascade Bicycle Club this week certainly exceeded our
expectations. From our discussions we hope to be able to present at their
annual meeting at the State Capitol in Olympia, WA this spring. By then the
Cascade Bicycle Club will have merged with the Washington Bikes giving us
an even larger audience.

Clifford

On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 3:48 AM, Paul Johnson  wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 2:58 AM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>
>>
>> OSM maps for cycling navigation with routing:
>>
>>- OSM maps for Garmin navigation devices:
>>- velomap/MTBmap,
>>   - openfietsmap (www.openfietsmap.nl/)
>>- OSM maps as native maps on navigation devices for cyclists:
>>   - Garmin edge Touring and edge 1000
>>   - Mio cyclo (
>>   http://www.mio.com/product-Bike-Navigation-Overview.htm)
>>   - teasi (http://www.teasi.eu)
>>
>>
> You missed Osmand as well; it does bicycle navigation.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Involving Cyclists in OSM

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Tue, 8 Dec 2015 19:39:05 -0800
Clifford Snow  wrote:

> >
> > - Useful for cycling advocacy, as it presents a more accurate less
> > car-focused set of data, and the open tools around OSM make it
> > easier to draw potential options
> >
> 
> Can you help me understand this better? Maybe an example.
> 
>

(1) I started mapping using OSM because I wanted to create map of
bicycle infrastructure in my city. OSM data part is done in large part
(including mapping surface of all cycleways), now I am working on tool
that given OSM data will produce website describing bicycle
infrastructure in a given region - including listing of problems and
issues.

(2) I am using Github issue tracker to track issues reported to local
government (potholes, traffic signal bugs etc) and I am using OSM map
links to save locations - it is typically something like "invalid B-2
sign at
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=50.0818=19.9160#map=16/50.0818/19.9160;.

This allows me to produce map with locations where I may check whatever
issue reported some time ago was fixed as it was supposed to happen (I
will not make a special trip to check whatever pothole was fixed - but
I may remember to check it during drive to church) (OSM used is as
basemap - see http://i.imgur.com/YckBQ2e.jpg ).

This is probably doable also with other map providers but
with OSM it is easier to do* and it is possible to fix problems with
used map - for example Polish government has high quality maps but it
is either illegal and complicated or highly expensive to use them in
this way and in case of Google I failed at step "produce link with
marker at wanted location" - before even considering problems caused by
using Google service.

*at least for me

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Re: [OSM-talk] Involving Cyclists in OSM

[Paul Johnson]

On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 2:58 AM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:

>
> OSM maps for cycling navigation with routing:
>
>- OSM maps for Garmin navigation devices:
>- velomap/MTBmap,
>   - openfietsmap (www.openfietsmap.nl/)
>- OSM maps as native maps on navigation devices for cyclists:
>   - Garmin edge Touring and edge 1000
>   - Mio cyclo (http://www.mio.com/product-Bike-Navigation-Overview.htm)
>
>   - teasi (http://www.teasi.eu)
>
>
You missed Osmand as well; it does bicycle navigation.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Involving Cyclists in OSM

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Wed, 9 Dec 2015 10:24:54 +0100
Simon Poole  wrote:

> road works (ok we don't have that)

Depends on region. Some mappers in Poland map construction works
lasting for longer period (switch to highway=construction during time
when road is inaccessible).

See for example http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/50.06364/19.93235

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Re: [OSM-talk] Involving Cyclists in OSM

[Simon Poole]

That is not PL specific, but naturally is rather limited in helpfulness.

Am 10.12.2015 um 12:23 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny:
> On Wed, 9 Dec 2015 10:24:54 +0100
> Simon Poole  wrote:
>
>> road works (ok we don't have that)
> Depends on region. Some mappers in Poland map construction works
> lasting for longer period (switch to highway=construction during time
> when road is inaccessible).
>
> See for example http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/50.06364/19.93235




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Re: [OSM-talk] Involving Cyclists in OSM

[Richard Fairhurst]

Clifford Snow wrote:
> I want to make sure I cover the salient points that would interest 
> cyclists. If you know of any websites that use bike routes or 
> otherwise make use of OSM data that would really be great.

Where do I start...? :)

Cycling and OSM have long been bedfellows. In Europe generally, and the UK
in particular, cyclists were the interest group that took to OSM first. Part
of the reason for this is economic (traditional geodata providers
concentrate on cars because there's more money there) but partly also
cultural, I think - cyclists have a culture of help-yourself and direct
action, and that chimes very well with OSM. Historically cycle maps have
been pretty poor, and OSM is the first chance to fix that, worldwide.



Cycle mapping in OSM really started in earnest in 2006, when we started
mapping the National Cycle Network in the UK:
  
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=WikiProject_United_Kingdom_National_Cycle_Network=3142

and in 2007 Andy Allan released the first version of what is now
OpenCycleMap to show this:
   https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2007-July/016012.html

(The National Cycle Network is run by Sustrans, a UK charity, and as it
happens a bunch of UK OSMers are or have been Sustrans volunteers.)



The other significant development at this time was mkgmap, which turns OSM
data into a map you can use on a handheld (or handlebar-mounted) Garmin GPS.
I put together perhaps the first OSM Garmin bike map in 2008:
  
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=OSM_Map_On_Garmin/Cycle_map=71511

and since then others have done amazing work building more and more complex
Garmin maps - Openfietsmap and Velomap are probably the two best known.



So, routing. Routing is particularly important to cyclists because road
systems and signage are generally designed for cars, funneling them onto
more and more major arteries - and that's the absolute opposite of what
cyclists want. If you're in London and simply follow the signs for Oxford it
will take you along motorways built for cars and closed to bikes. You know
all this.

OSM is the first worldwide routable dataset that offers the potential for
decent bike routing. Google has a go, and in many (mostly urban) areas
Google bike routing comes up with good results, but it can also take you
onto downright dangerous roads or impassable muddy tracks. If you ask Google
for a route from Land's End to John O'Groats, the iconic end-to-end
challenge in the UK (pretty much our equivalent of your Coast-to-Coast), it
suggests the infamously dangerous main highway through Cornwall:
   https://goo.gl/maps/nwrbcAxgFRm

and barely cyclable rural canal paths like this:
   http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/599319

OSM has richer data and can do better. And with the advances in routing
tools recently, particularly OSRM and Graphhopper, I think you could say
that OSM bike routing is now the best in the world.

There are lots of sites, but with no disrespect to the others who are doing
good stuff (MapMyRide, Komoot...) there are three I'd single out. Mikel has
already mentioned Strava, the favourite of road cyclists. Strava supplements
OSM mapping with their own massive tracklog database from their users'
rides, so it's not just sending you down roads that look good for cycling
algorithmically, but those where cyclists actually ride. The big proviso
with Strava is that it's a self-selecting userbase - they describe
themselves as "a global community of athletes", and if, like me, your
cycling isn't about being an "athlete" you'll find it takes you down the
routes favoured by speedsters rather than the quiet lanes you might prefer.
But it's the world's biggest bike routes site and they're doing a lot of
really interesting stuff with OSM.

CycleStreets (http://www.cyclestreets.net/), launched in 2009, was pretty
much the pioneer in OSM bike routing. It's essentially UK-only other than an
occasional outlier. It was the first site where you could ask for an A-B
route and pretty much guarantee you'd get something good back. It looks at
the full gamut of OSM tags to find a route, and is entirely custom-written
code. It was spun out of the Cambridge Cycling Campaign and really makes the
best of all their cycling knowledge.

And at the risk of blowing my own trumpet, there's cycle.travel
(http://cycle.travel/map), which I built. cycle.travel aims to give routes
as good as an OSM specialist like CycleStreets, but with the speed and
ease-of-use of Google's routeplanner - which means fully draggable routes, a
custom map showing relevant bike stuff, and ridiculous amounts of
preprocessing to get the OSM data just right.

It started UK-only, then Western Europe, and now does the US and Canada too.
The US routing is actually the most complex of the three, in its efforts to
keep you off busy roads but also to avoid the TIGER residential trap - the
last thing you want is to be routed along a "quiet rural residential road"
that actually turns 

Re: [OSM-talk] Involving Cyclists in OSM

[Simon Poole]

IMHO it really depends on what the concrete  "cycling club" actually is,
very rough triage:

- cycling advocacy group - will be interested in cycling infrastructure
(as in cycleways, quiet routes etc), route planning, multi-mode
transportation

- sporty cycling enthusiasts group - documenting their "standard" rides,
ancillary infrastructure (sources of compressed air, bicycle shops,
publicly available tools, road works (ok we don't have that)), lots of
overlap with Strava customers (in the US)

Simon

Am 09.12.2015 um 01:40 schrieb Clifford Snow:
> I am meeting with one of the key players in Seattle's cycling clubs to
> pitch doing a presentation to their membership. I'm interested in
> hearing from cyclists on why and how OSM is useful to them. I have no
> problem talking about the open data concept and incorporating slippy
> maps, but I want to make sure I cover the salient points that would
> interest cyclists. If you know of any websites that use bike routes or
> otherwise make use of OSM data that would really be great. 
>
> Thanks,
> Clifford
>
> -- 
> @osm_seattle
> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us 
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>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Involving Cyclists in OSM

[Simon Poole]

Am 09.12.2015 um 09:58 schrieb Volker Schmidt:
>
> Routing for cyclists:
> Several sites offer offline routing for cyclists, for example:
>
>   * graphhopper maps (https://graphhopper.com/maps/)
>   * bikemap.net  (www.bikemap.net/en/
> )
>   * Naviki (https://www.naviki.org>)
>   * cyclestreets (UK only - http://www.cyclestreets.net/)
>   * http://bikehike.co.uk/
>   * bikeroutetoaster.com 
>
>

Naturally Richard Fairhursts site and routing should be included in the
above http://cycle.travel/ (which is clearly one of the most polished
sites in OSMspace).

Simon


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Re: [OSM-talk] Involving Cyclists in OSM

[Maarten Deen]

On 2015-12-09 09:58, Volker Schmidt wrote:

A few suggestions.

On-line maps for cyclists:

* Opencyclemap (Opencyclmap.org) shows both infrastructure for
bicycles as means of transportation (cycle paths etc.) and
infrastructure for cycle tourism (cycle routes)
* http://cycling.waymarkedtrails.org shows cycle routes
* http://hikebikemap.org/ (EU only) shows hiking and biking routes


With Richard's comments about dangerous main roads in mind I want to 
mention http://brouter.de/brouter-web/ as a very versatile router where 
you can change the routing profile and give more or less penalty to 
certain road types.
It is a very easy method to steer the routing. I'm sure it is used by 
most, if not all, routing engines, but this is the only one I know of 
where you can manually change the routing profile to that level of 
detail yourself.


Regards,
Maarten

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Re: [OSM-talk] Involving Cyclists in OSM

[Mishari Muqbil]

I would like to +1 brouter which is IMO the best bicycle routing system
out there. As it's a bit geeky, I also wrote a short Quickstart guide
for laymen at https://www.mishari.net/2015/09/brouter-quickstart-guide/

On 9/12/15 16:20, Maarten Deen wrote:
> On 2015-12-09 09:58, Volker Schmidt wrote:
>> A few suggestions.
>>
>> On-line maps for cyclists:
>>
>> * Opencyclemap (Opencyclmap.org) shows both infrastructure for
>> bicycles as means of transportation (cycle paths etc.) and
>> infrastructure for cycle tourism (cycle routes)
>> * http://cycling.waymarkedtrails.org shows cycle routes
>> * http://hikebikemap.org/ (EU only) shows hiking and biking routes
>
> With Richard's comments about dangerous main roads in mind I want to
> mention http://brouter.de/brouter-web/ as a very versatile router
> where you can change the routing profile and give more or less penalty
> to certain road types.
> It is a very easy method to steer the routing. I'm sure it is used by
> most, if not all, routing engines, but this is the only one I know of
> where you can manually change the routing profile to that level of
> detail yourself.
>
> Regards,
> Maarten
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Involving Cyclists in OSM

[Sylvain Maillard]

Hi,

you may check the work done by "La ville à vélo", a cycling club in France
: they did a great job mapping all the cycling infrastructure in the city
of Lyon.
The result is both a map (http://carte.lavilleavelo.org) and data of good
quality for routing engine (like http://geovelo.fr/#/lyon/)


Sylvain


2015-12-09 1:40 GMT+01:00 Clifford Snow :

> I am meeting with one of the key players in Seattle's cycling clubs to
> pitch doing a presentation to their membership. I'm interested in hearing
> from cyclists on why and how OSM is useful to them. I have no problem
> talking about the open data concept and incorporating slippy maps, but I
> want to make sure I cover the salient points that would interest cyclists.
> If you know of any websites that use bike routes or otherwise make use of
> OSM data that would really be great.
>
> Thanks,
> Clifford
>
> --
> @osm_seattle
> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Involving Cyclists in OSM

[Mikel Maron]

Strava uses OSM http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Strava * Mikel Maron * 
+14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron 


On Wednesday, December 9, 2015 6:13 AM, Clifford Snow 
 wrote:
 
 

 I am meeting with one of the key players in Seattle's cycling clubs to pitch 
doing a presentation to their membership. I'm interested in hearing from 
cyclists on why and how OSM is useful to them. I have no problem talking about 
the open data concept and incorporating slippy maps, but I want to make sure I 
cover the salient points that would interest cyclists. If you know of any 
websites that use bike routes or otherwise make use of OSM data that would 
really be great. 
Thanks,Clifford

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Re: [OSM-talk] Involving Cyclists in OSM

[Warin]

On 9/12/2015 11:40 AM, Clifford Snow wrote:
I am meeting with one of the key players in Seattle's cycling clubs to 
pitch doing a presentation to their membership. I'm interested in 
hearing from cyclists on why and how OSM is useful to them. I have no 
problem talking about the open data concept and incorporating slippy 
maps, but I want to make sure I cover the salient points that would 
interest cyclists. If you know of any websites that use bike routes or 
otherwise make use of OSM data that would really be great.


_Phone apps that display cycling specific information;_

OsmAnd (both android and Iphone) has a configuration for cyclists that 
brings to the fore cycling POIs - bicycle shops, water sources. Also 
brings up cycling routes - making them easily seen. Less well displayed 
are cycling lanes etc.
Mapsone (?) (Iphone only) has a good topographical display. Not played 
with this myself.


_Web based things _
http://cycling.lonvia.de/en/
http://opencyclemap.org/
http://www.cyclestreets.net/journey/


_Garmin GPS based things_
https://www.velomap.org/



There may be others.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Involving Cyclists in OSM

[john whelan]

To start OSMAND off line map with cycle selected for the routing, nice if
you have a GPS android device.  The difficulty with cycling is the rules
vary from place to place in Canada for example cycling on sidewalks is not
permitted but often cyclists will cycle ten yards on the sidewalk in order
to link up two nice bits of cycling route but you wouldn't suggest it on a
map.

There is a site that gives three types of cycling routes fast direct,
medium and back streets only for safety but unfortunately I can't recall
the name.

Maperitive can give you a cycle orientated map on a lap top.

Cheerio John

On 8 December 2015 at 19:40, Clifford Snow  wrote:

> I am meeting with one of the key players in Seattle's cycling clubs to
> pitch doing a presentation to their membership. I'm interested in hearing
> from cyclists on why and how OSM is useful to them. I have no problem
> talking about the open data concept and incorporating slippy maps, but I
> want to make sure I cover the salient points that would interest cyclists.
> If you know of any websites that use bike routes or otherwise make use of
> OSM data that would really be great.
>
> Thanks,
> Clifford
>
> --
> @osm_seattle
> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Involving Cyclists in OSM

[Paul Norman]

On 12/8/2015 4:40 PM, Clifford Snow wrote:
I am meeting with one of the key players in Seattle's cycling clubs to 
pitch doing a presentation to their membership. I'm interested in 
hearing from cyclists on why and how OSM is useful to them. I have no 
problem talking about the open data concept and incorporating slippy 
maps, but I want to make sure I cover the salient points that would 
interest cyclists. If you know of any websites that use bike routes or 
otherwise make use of OSM data that would really be great.




Cycling is an area where OSM is at its strongest, given the traditional 
focus on car navigation by other data sources. I've used the other data 
sources professionally, and they're improving, but not near OSM's 
completeness or detailed attributes.


Some bigger projects

http://www.cyclestreets.net/ (UK-only) has cycle-specific route planning

http://cycle.travel/ has similar features, and includes US coverage. It 
does a reasonable job of dealing with bad TIGER data in the rural US. 
This is probably less of an issue in Seattle since you'd be looking at 
more urban or mountain biking, not rural "roads".


http://www.opencyclemap.org/ is also worth a demo, being one of the most 
established bicycle-focused renderings


OpenTripPlanner can use OSM data and do multi-modal routing, which can 
be essential for data-based cycling advocacy


osm.org itself has bicycle routing from two engines

OSM maps on Garmin devices including cycle devices is a typical OSM 
strength. Depending on audience, they might be interested specifically 
in this.


For what points to pitch, I'd suggest

- A more complete data source for bicycles, walking, and anything other 
than car navigation


- Crowd-sourced, so they can edit themselves, meaning they can get fixed 
data in minutes to days, not quarters to years


- Useful for cycling advocacy, as it presents a more accurate less 
car-focused set of data, and the open tools around OSM make it easier to 
draw potential options


- I'd avoid "open data" as in the US that's often taken to mean working 
with government data.


- Areas like the North Shore in Vancouver have mountain paths which 
aren't in and will never be in "official" datasets, but are essential if 
you're cycling there. I'm not sure if there's analogous areas in the 
Seattle area.


What area does the club focus on? (e.g. mountain biking, commuter 
cycling, etc)


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Re: [OSM-talk] Involving Cyclists in OSM

[Clifford Snow]

On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 6:56 PM, Paul Norman  wrote:

> For what points to pitch, I'd suggest
>
> - Crowd-sourced, so they can edit themselves, meaning they can get fixed
> data in minutes to days, not quarters to years
>

This is my goal. More mappers. They can use other sources, but OSM is
really the only one that they can actually improve.


>
> - Useful for cycling advocacy, as it presents a more accurate less
> car-focused set of data, and the open tools around OSM make it easier to
> draw potential options
>

Can you help me understand this better? Maybe an example.


>
> - I'd avoid "open data" as in the US that's often taken to mean working
> with government data.
>

 I agree that getting into the cities "open data"  is a can of worms. I
plan to talk how they can use OSM's data in apps, maps, etc., just for the
cost of attribution.

>
> - Areas like the North Shore in Vancouver have mountain paths which aren't
> in and will never be in "official" datasets, but are essential if you're
> cycling there. I'm not sure if there's analogous areas in the Seattle area.
>

Got a link to the area? Be fun to show.

>
> What area does the club focus on? (e.g. mountain biking, commuter cycling,
> etc)
>

Basically it's an organization that supports cyclists. Check out their
wikipedia page at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascade_Bicycle_Club.




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Re: [OSM-talk] Involving Cyclists in OSM

[Paul Norman]

On 12/8/2015 7:39 PM, Clifford Snow wrote:


On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 6:56 PM, Paul Norman > wrote:


For what points to pitch, I'd suggest

- Crowd-sourced, so they can edit themselves, meaning they can get
fixed data in minutes to days, not quarters to years


This is my goal. More mappers. They can use other sources, but OSM is 
really the only one that they can actually improve.



- Useful for cycling advocacy, as it presents a more accurate less
car-focused set of data, and the open tools around OSM make it
easier to draw potential options


Can you help me understand this better? Maybe an example.


If you're trying to advocate for a cycle route you can do more useful 
stuff with OSM than with other tools, such as examine average travel 
times for improved cycle connection. OpenTripPlanner can be used for 
this. You can do stuff more sophisticated than using photoshop to draw 
in a line. People in the UK are using OSM in public right of way 
advocacy because you can add details like buildings, other paths, parks, 
and other features which make a proposal make more sense and generally 
be more attractive.



- Areas like the North Shore in Vancouver have mountain paths
which aren't in and will never be in "official" datasets, but are
essential if you're cycling there. I'm not sure if there's
analogous areas in the Seattle area.


Got a link to the area? Be fun to show.


http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/49.332/-122.984=C

As the paths are named by north shore bikers, they are not family safe.
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