Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
> A brilliant idea. Close inspection of a changeset should also be able to > better find out whether the changeset actually applies to a certain area > or whether it just has a huge bounding box. Currently, we have "ID, Saved at, Comment, Area" fields in the changeset list, so perhaps adding columns with number of ways, nodes and relations changed/added/deleted would make it easier to guess the nature of a changeset. Unusually high number of moved nodes (in relation to other edits in changeset suggest thatr someone may have moved something, perhaps accidentally). Unusually high number of deletion suggest possible vandalism (though it can be case that something big got just bolldozed in reality, but it is worth checking), etc .. Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
Hi, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: >> On 16 Jul 2009, at 13:48, Sam Vekemans wrote: >> Umm.. Not everyone is that friendly and we need more powerful medicine for >> those occasions. > > +1 > >> 1) A way to view quickly determine the nature of any change-set - did the >> change set add any new ways/nodes? did it add tags to ways/nodes? change >> values in tags? delete ways/node? delete tags? - that sort of stuff. I >> would like to see all the changes textually and also as a map and be able to >> see the history of each feature with similar information available. > > +1 > yes, it would be really helpful to get in the object history a map not > just of the current state but on demand of the other (previous) ones > as well (could maybe be rendered locally?). By this you would have an > easy and in many times sufficient way to judge the nature of an edit. A brilliant idea. Close inspection of a changeset should also be able to better find out whether the changeset actually applies to a certain area or whether it just has a huge bounding box. This is by the way, just to re-iterate my mantra, not something that for whatever strategical reason needs to be done on the main server(s). It can be done by anyone running a current mirror. We could even have multiple tools like these, which could shine a light on different aspects of editing and employ (and try out) various algorithms of highlighting changes. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
2009/7/20 Peter Miller : > On 16 Jul 2009, at 13:48, Sam Vekemans wrote: > Umm.. Not everyone is that friendly and we need more powerful medicine for > those occasions. +1 > 1) A way to view quickly determine the nature of any change-set - did the > change set add any new ways/nodes? did it add tags to ways/nodes? change > values in tags? delete ways/node? delete tags? - that sort of stuff. I > would like to see all the changes textually and also as a map and be able to > see the history of each feature with similar information available. +1 yes, it would be really helpful to get in the object history a map not just of the current state but on demand of the other (previous) ones as well (could maybe be rendered locally?). By this you would have an easy and in many times sufficient way to judge the nature of an edit. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
On 16 Jul 2009, at 13:48, Sam Vekemans wrote: Hi all, +1 for having a revert button only for your own (personal) changsets. With no button requesting a change revert. .. just message that person, in a friendly way. Most of the time it's a newbie who is just learning. :-) Umm.. Not everyone is that friendly and we need more powerful medicine for those occasions. We have a persistent and very destructive mapper in the UK. We have reverted most of his edits from June by hand. I messaged him politely in June without a response. He reappeared in July and is now breaking roads, rivers and railways and adding stray bits of visible rubbish most days. All of this stuff is majorly destructive:- http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/liam123/edits I think we need a number of things pretty fast. 1) A way to view quickly determine the nature of any change-set - did the change set add any new ways/nodes? did it add tags to ways/nodes? change values in tags? delete ways/node? delete tags? - that sort of stuff. I would like to see all the changes textually and also as a map and be able to see the history of each feature with similar information available. 2) A way to for people to patrol for edits by new contributors in an area on a real-time basis and a way for experienced mappers to indicate that a newbie's changesets has been checked and are ok or not. 3) An RSS feed to monitor a users edits to watch for new activity. Got it, we have that one - thanks 4) A way to revert a change-sets quickly before people put stuff on top or try to repair (I would also like to opportunities to complete the revert even if work has subsequently been done on some of the touched features) 5) A way to see which change-sets have been reverted recently within an area and by whom 6) A way to revert the revert etc 7) A way for people spot revert wars (ie users doing many reverts or areas with many reverts) 8) Community guidelines on only using revert for blatant vandalism rather than just because you preferred it as is was - (assume food intentions and build if in doubt) 9) A way to request a block on the IP address for a short period if vandalism is coming from unique static IP address 10) I would also like a publicly available talk page for a user where people can leave public messages for the user and for other people to read. This would need to be a wiki page so problems could be removed, but it would allow a place to talk in semi-public about issues which is sometimes useful. I think all of the above is the what we need to have to make it work from a community perspective as well as from a technical perspective. Do be aware that a vandal is very unlikely to sign the new license so at present it is important that we remove the edits rather than repair on top of edits. Regards, Peter Miller (If we had a "revert" button next to a changeset, and I agree with the cautious voices who said that this is quite unlikely to work once a few hours or days have passed, then I would probably enable that button only for the user who committed the original change, and anyone else who clicks the button would just send a message to that user saying "please revert your change".) Bye Frederik From my experience, the user who did the upload. .. ie, if i uploaded something that i realize that more nodes were added than needed. Having an easy way for me to fix that is helpful. I found that once i notified users of what was done, they (themselves) would probably appreciate the ability for them to revert their mistake (since now becoming aware of it). ie. in the case of copyright maps. For example, im now fixing up some of the stuff i added for my sample area. My changesets are in a logical order. So i'd like the ability to be able to 'undo', something i did last week. So if other edits where made ontop of some of the changes, a list can be made available of those conflicts. But all the other stuff (breadcrumbs) can be reverted. (some of my polygons might have extra nodes, that i dont know of yet) Cheers, Sam ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
Hi all, +1 for having a revert button only for your own (personal) changsets. With no button requesting a change revert. .. just message that person, in a friendly way. Most of the time it's a newbie who is just learning. :-) (If we had a "revert" button next to a changeset, and I agree with the > cautious voices who said that this is quite unlikely to work once a few > hours or days have passed, then I would probably enable that button only > for the user who committed the original change, and anyone else who > clicks the button would just send a message to that user saying "please > revert your change".) > > Bye > Frederik >From my experience, the user who did the upload. .. ie, if i uploaded something that i realize that more nodes were added than needed. Having an easy way for me to fix that is helpful. I found that once i notified users of what was done, they (themselves) would probably appreciate the ability for them to revert their mistake (since now becoming aware of it). ie. in the case of copyright maps. For example, im now fixing up some of the stuff i added for my sample area. My changesets are in a logical order. So i'd like the ability to be able to 'undo', something i did last week. So if other edits where made ontop of some of the changes, a list can be made available of those conflicts. But all the other stuff (breadcrumbs) can be reverted. (some of my polygons might have extra nodes, that i dont know of yet) Cheers, Sam ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
On Wednesday 15 July 2009 16:36:36 Russ Nelson wrote:
> On Jul 15, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Yann Coupin wrote:
> >> I completely agree with Pieren here. Unless you're part of the happy
> >> fews, if case of vandalism/error, you're forced to painstakingly
> >> repair by hand the problems
> >
> > That is true, but we also have to look at the potential for problems.
> >
> > ("If everyone had a gun, it would be much easier for everyone to
> > defend
> > themselves, and the streets would thus become much safer for
> > everyone."
> > - Can you spot the problem?)
>
> No, in fact, I can't, because you're using the wrong analogy. Try this
> one: "If only police and criminals have guns, it is much easier for
> everyone to defend themselves, because when a criminal is threatening
> you with his gun, you just call a policeman, wait for him to arrive,
> and he uses his gun."
The gun analogy is a very bad one whichever way you use it. In the real world
there is no undo/revert. Philosophical nitpicking aside we can undo/revert
things in the data so there is no real risk involved unlike the physical
world. Having very powerful tools on either side will do more good than bad.
>
> > If we make these things too easy, then they will get abused.
>
> Do you realize that you're also making this argument:
> "If we make map editing too easy, then abusers will edit the map, thus
> we must put horrible user interfaces in place to make it harder to
> edit." One might argue that this has already happened. :) (just
> teasing!)
>
> > Also, it is quite a challenge technically as well. A good revert
> > system
> > would have to visualise what it is about to revert,
>
> Fair enough! Perhaps a revert should be couched in terms of a .OSM
> file which you load into JOSM, and then preview? If you like what you
> see fixed, then you hit the upload button. If there are conflicts,
> well, then there are conflicts and you deal with them as any other
> edit conflict.
Agreed.
Ordinary mappers like me need an easy way to download the deleted objects so
they show up in Josm (or other).
Lambert Carsten
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Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
On Jul 15, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Yann Coupin wrote:
>> I completely agree with Pieren here. Unless you're part of the happy
>> fews, if case of vandalism/error, you're forced to painstakingly
>> repair by hand the problems
>
> That is true, but we also have to look at the potential for problems.
>
> ("If everyone had a gun, it would be much easier for everyone to
> defend
> themselves, and the streets would thus become much safer for
> everyone."
> - Can you spot the problem?)
No, in fact, I can't, because you're using the wrong analogy. Try this
one: "If only police and criminals have guns, it is much easier for
everyone to defend themselves, because when a criminal is threatening
you with his gun, you just call a policeman, wait for him to arrive,
and he uses his gun."
> If we make these things too easy, then they will get abused.
Do you realize that you're also making this argument:
"If we make map editing too easy, then abusers will edit the map, thus
we must put horrible user interfaces in place to make it harder to
edit." One might argue that this has already happened. :) (just
teasing!)
> Also, it is quite a challenge technically as well. A good revert
> system
> would have to visualise what it is about to revert,
Fair enough! Perhaps a revert should be couched in terms of a .OSM
file which you load into JOSM, and then preview? If you like what you
see fixed, then you hit the upload button. If there are conflicts,
well, then there are conflicts and you deal with them as any other
edit conflict.
--
Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog -
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson
r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM -
http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson
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Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 03:37:35PM +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Pieren wrote: > > It is a technical discussion because everybody can revert changes anyway. > > True. Everyone can delete all of London anyway. This doesn't mean that > we have a button on the web page that says: "Delete all of London". That’s quite an exaggeration over reverting the edits made in a changeset, committing in a new changeset, which itself can be reverted. If somebody did delete all of London using the mechanism above, I would welcome the option to revert that all the more. > (If we had a "revert" button next to a changeset […] then I would > probably enable that button only for the user who committed the > original change, and anyone else who clicks the button would just send > a message to that user saying "please revert your change".) That breaks down if the user fails to respond, and it’s back to the admins to evaluate the situation and revert, or potentially spending a lot of effort manually reverting the change. For a crowd‐sourcing project that thrives on a low(ish) barrier to contributing, making tasks unnecessarily difficult seems to be going entirely in the wrong direction. Of course, it’s polite to let someone know if you’d like their change to be reverted, but you can still do that if a revert button exists next to a changeset. There are links to the user page at the moment, but messaging can be encouraged by providing a direct “message this user” link too. Leaving the option of reverting a changeset (if possible without conflicts) to the users is much more open than leaving it to a privileged few. Simon -- A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works.—John Gall signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
On Jul 15, 2009, at 6:51 AM, Pieren wrote: > On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Frederik Ramm > wrote: >> True. Everyone can delete all of London anyway. This doesn't mean >> that we >> have a button on the web page that says: "Delete all of London". As Pieren says, a revert is just another edit. Perhaps this is a good solution: o When somebody hits the "revert" button (and is asked for a changeset comment), that sends email to the original submittor of the changeset notifying them that their changeset was reverted. o Revert everything that can be reverted. o When there are editing conflicts, include a link to Potlatch with a bbox for the conflict. -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
Hi,
Yann Coupin wrote:
> I completely agree with Pieren here. Unless you're part of the happy
> fews, if case of vandalism/error, you're forced to painstakingly
> repair by hand the problems
That is true, but we also have to look at the potential for problems.
("If everyone had a gun, it would be much easier for everyone to defend
themselves, and the streets would thus become much safer for everyone."
- Can you spot the problem?)
Often it is not one evil vandal against the poor mapper who repairs
things. It is something like this: User A thinks that all cycleways
should be highway=path,cycle=designated, and changes them all in his
village. User B dislikes the idea and reverts the change (along with a
small number of more usefule edits that A did and that were in the same
changeset). User A reverts the revert. User B becomes angry and reverts
not only the reversion of the revert, but all other edits that A did in
the last week. User A asks his friend C for help, and C reverts
everything that B ever did. B finds out that C is from Corse and deletes
the whole island... etc. etc.
If we make these things too easy, then they will get abused. While it is
true that the above scenario could happen today, it would require much
more effort on the part of all parties, and this is a certain hurdle.
I am all for for giving more power to everyone but we have to think
about how we can do this the right way.
Also, it is quite a challenge technically as well. A good revert system
would have to visualise what it is about to revert, and would have to
check in advance whether there are going to be any follow-on problems. A
good revert system could even alert the user whose change is about to be
reverted, and the user would have a chance to complain. It is surely
something that we must think about, and surely not a matter of simply
putting a button there that says "revert".
Bye
Frederik
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Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: > True. Everyone can delete all of London anyway. This doesn't mean that we > have a button on the web page that says: "Delete all of London". > I agree that the button shouldn't be in front page where someone could click on it by accident. It could be in the changset history for instance. I also agree that it might fail if we have conflicts because it took too long time between the vandalism and its detection. But at least, it would give a chance to revert if we react fast enough. If I compare with Wikipedia, it would be like that anyone is allowed to delete or modify a complete wiki page but other contributors (not the last editor) are just allowed to restore the page line by line or word by word... Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
hi I called it an "undo *request* button. If I see a problem in the changelog I'm not able to revert it. There is no defined way to report the problem. The real problem starts if people start to repair manually. What about a button that opens a dialog where people can describe the problem. The problem description including changeset id could be sent to a special (ninja mapper) mailing list, or to an RSS file, or to some special users,... In some cases the revert could be done without human review. Example: o user wants to revert the own edits o "power user" (mapper since 2 years) reverts changes of new user o ... Once the reporting UI is done it can start with manual reverts and can be improved doing automatic reverts. Bernhard > You are confusing what is technically possible with what is socially > acceptable. Frederik's point was that when you are doing a revert you > should consider whether (socially speaking) it is appropriate. > > So, to use his examples, if somebody mails him saying "I just made a > mistake, can you revert my edit" then that is obviously fine; but if > somebody on the other side of the world emails him saying "X keeps > making bad edits, can you revert them" then he will decline as he has no > way of knowing the background to the situation or who is right. > > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
Hi, Pieren wrote: > It is a technical discussion because everybody can revert changes anyway. True. Everyone can delete all of London anyway. This doesn't mean that we have a button on the web page that says: "Delete all of London". (If we had a "revert" button next to a changeset, and I agree with the cautious voices who said that this is quite unlikely to work once a few hours or days have passed, then I would probably enable that button only for the user who committed the original change, and anyone else who clicks the button would just send a message to that user saying "please revert your change".) Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
I completely agree with Pieren here. Unless you're part of the happy fews, if case of vandalism/error, you're forced to painstakingly repair by hand the problems (and that's if you're lucky and potlatch succeed at restoring all that's necessary). This is a problem I've personally encountered when a new user damaged a lot of stuff near where I live. Hopefully I could spot it quickly (thanks to itoworlds' graphical diff), but it was long to repair and I may very well have left some crumbs behind me as being thorough is hard when reverting way by way, node by node... We really need an easy way to revert changes, and eventually combine that with local comities of "power users". Being open doesn't mean we have to remain all equals (esp. since, in fact, we're not). Yann Le 15 juil. 09 à 15:06, Pieren a écrit : > It is a technical discussion because everybody can revert changes > anyway. > The point is that anyone can delete 1000 buildings in your city in > three clicks on JOSM but only few privileged people can revert this > vandalism quickly (the ones how know the appropriate script). The > others have to repair it manually 1000 times. It is a way to create a > special category of "privileged contributors allowed to revert > changesets" without saying it. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Tom Hughes wrote: > You are confusing what is technically possible with what is socially > acceptable. Frederik's point was that when you are doing a revert you > should consider whether (socially speaking) it is appropriate. > > So, to use his examples, if somebody mails him saying "I just made a > mistake, can you revert my edit" then that is obviously fine; but if > somebody on the other side of the world emails him saying "X keeps > making bad edits, can you revert them" then he will decline as he has no > way of knowing the background to the situation or who is right. > > Tom It is a technical discussion because everybody can revert changes anyway. The point is that anyone can delete 1000 buildings in your city in three clicks on JOSM but only few privileged people can revert this vandalism quickly (the ones how know the appropriate script). The others have to repair it manually 1000 times. It is a way to create a special category of "privileged contributors allowed to revert changesets" without saying it. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
On 15/07/09 13:13, marcus.wolsc...@googlemail.com wrote: > On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 08:49:11 +0100, Tom Hughes wrote: > >> Anyway, to draw on Frederik's workshop at SOTM the actual revert is in >> many ways the easy part - the hard thing is establishing the authority >> to do the revert. In other words the question of who gets to decide that >> an edit is "bad" and should be reverted. > > A revert is itself just a new changeset. > It is not a deletion of an existing changeset. > So any user has the rights to do a revert > if and only of that user has the right to > make an edit. You are confusing what is technically possible with what is socially acceptable. Frederik's point was that when you are doing a revert you should consider whether (socially speaking) it is appropriate. So, to use his examples, if somebody mails him saying "I just made a mistake, can you revert my edit" then that is obviously fine; but if somebody on the other side of the world emails him saying "X keeps making bad edits, can you revert them" then he will decline as he has no way of knowing the background to the situation or who is right. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 08:49:11 +0100, Tom Hughes wrote: > Anyway, to draw on Frederik's workshop at SOTM the actual revert is in > many ways the easy part - the hard thing is establishing the authority > to do the revert. In other words the question of who gets to decide that > an edit is "bad" and should be reverted. A revert is itself just a new changeset. It is not a deletion of an existing changeset. So any user has the rights to do a revert if and only of that user has the right to make an edit. Same semantics as a revert in Wikpedia (as long as a complete revert is technically possible). Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
What would also be convenient would be a way to display older version in the browse history page. Take this way for instance: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/23820548/history The map on the top right overlays the current version on top of the tiles. But what if I want to see how it looked as version 4. I can click changeset 1793367 but it won't help, it would be great if the version was a link that changed the map to display the previous version. I understand that it would require to also get the nodes as they were at the time the changeset was created, but that would be a step in the right direction. Also sometimes reverting a full changeset is more than needed, reverting a single object is all you want, and while it's possible by downloading an older version and modifying the XML by hand, it's certainly time consuming, and like others have said, reverting change should not take a lot more time than creating change. Yann Le 14 juil. 09 à 20:52, MP a écrit : I think the worst case to revert is mass deletion - only Potlatch have some facilities to find deleted lines given a BBOX, and only lines, not POIs or relations. Such deletion is quite hard to spot. As for reverting changesets - there is list of nodes/ways/relations that was either added, changed or deleted in the changeset XML, so for changed stuff, you can retrieve the previous version from history (using the version from changeset as the "id of old version"), for new stuff, you add action="delete" into the XML and for deleted stuff, you recreate the last version (could be a bit tricky for deleted ways with nodes, as you'll have to mangle the ID's a bit ...) It shouldn't be probably hard to write such a thing ... perhaps some of existing tools can be just a little adapted to produce this. Load this into JOSM, use the conflict resolution in there to sort things out (if someone tries to fix the thing manually) and upload . changeset effectively reverted. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
I think the worst case to revert is mass deletion - only Potlatch have some facilities to find deleted lines given a BBOX, and only lines, not POIs or relations. Such deletion is quite hard to spot. As for reverting changesets - there is list of nodes/ways/relations that was either added, changed or deleted in the changeset XML, so for changed stuff, you can retrieve the previous version from history (using the version from changeset as the "id of old version"), for new stuff, you add action="delete" into the XML and for deleted stuff, you recreate the last version (could be a bit tricky for deleted ways with nodes, as you'll have to mangle the ID's a bit ...) It shouldn't be probably hard to write such a thing ... perhaps some of existing tools can be just a little adapted to produce this. Load this into JOSM, use the conflict resolution in there to sort things out (if someone tries to fix the thing manually) and upload . changeset effectively reverted. Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
On 14 Jul 2009, at 18:13, John Smith wrote: --- On Tue, 14/7/09, Chris Hunter wrote: Take a look at the history for this stretch of I-75 near the TN/GA border, since I was unaware of the undo process, I ended up spending 6+ hours redrawing I-75 (admittedly the work needed to be done to fix TIGER, but still) because of a single-keystroke mistake that the CTRL-Z undo in Potlatch didn't allow me to undo. Know that feeling, I had a way with > 4000 points I was trying to split and at the time JOSM and potlatch only made a mess of it leaving all the nodes and no connecting way. Because I didn't know I could undo a changeset I spent hours reconnecting all the nodes by hand. In that case the revert wouldn't work, because you can't save any way with more than 2000 nodes (even if it is part of a revert). Shaun smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
--- On Tue, 14/7/09, Chris Hunter wrote: > Take a look at the history for this stretch of I-75 near > the TN/GA border, since I was unaware of the undo process, I > ended up spending 6+ hours redrawing I-75 (admittedly the > work needed to be done to fix TIGER, but still) because of a > single-keystroke mistake that the CTRL-Z undo in Potlatch > didn't allow me to undo. Know that feeling, I had a way with > 4000 points I was trying to split and at the time JOSM and potlatch only made a mess of it leaving all the nodes and no connecting way. Because I didn't know I could undo a changeset I spent hours reconnecting all the nodes by hand. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
Chris Hunter wrote: > Take a look at the history for this stretch of I-75 near the TN/GA > border, since I was unaware of the undo process, I ended up spending > 6+ hours redrawing I-75 (admittedly the work needed to be done > to fix TIGER, but still) because of a single-keystroke mistake > that the CTRL-Z undo in Potlatch didn't allow me to undo. a) what was the mistake? b) are you aware that Potlatch already has a history/revert function? cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Undo-request-button-for-changesets-tp24474935p24483893.html Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
For those of us who live in areas that are pretty sparse on mappers, I don't see this being a problem. Speaking from personal experience, just seeing an undo button on your user history would prevent a lot of conflicts from people trying to "fix" their mistakes. Take a look at the history for this stretch of I-75 near the TN/GA border, since I was unaware of the undo process, I ended up spending 6+ hours redrawing I-75 (admittedly the work needed to be done to fix TIGER, but still) because of a single-keystroke mistake that the CTRL-Z undo in Potlatch didn't allow me to undo. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?minlon=-85.6267052&minlat=34.8502047&maxlon=-84.2608284&maxlat=35.0374212&box=yes Chris On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 12:39 PM, wrote: > As soon as someone has edited anything in the changeset after the version > in the changeset, then you have a conflict and can't do a simple one click > revert. OpenStreetMap data is a *lot* more complex than the Wikipedia when > it comes to reverting due to the referential integrity. That is key to there > not being a simple revert system for whole changesets. > > >> If the edit can't be reverted because of conflicts, simply show a: >> "can't revert because of editing conflicts" message. >> >> I guess this would already solve 99.99% of all cases. >> > > Only in the seconds/hours after the edit was made (depending on how active > the mappers in the area are). The further back in time you go the more > conflicts you get and the harder it is. > > Shaun > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
Le mardi 14 juillet 2009 à 13:13, Francois Van Der Biest a écrit : > Therefore, I imagine we should show features which have been > created/updated/deleted in different colors (eg: green/blue/red) on > the changeset page. +1 That would be really cool. I've been missing such a feature since changeset have been introduced. -- Renaud Michel ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
Shaun McDonald schrieb: > > On 14 Jul 2009, at 09:50, Ulf Lamping wrote: > >> Tom Hughes schrieb: >> >>> because in general terms it won't work - reverting >>> will often need manual intervention to resolve conflicts. >> >> I've heard this argument many times before, but no prove that it is >> actually true. Why not do it the osm way, implement it the simplest >> possible way and see how far we get? > > People who have reverted stuff in the past have already come across the > conflicts. This is especially true when you have someone who has tried > to fix the problem manually before asking for help. True. But: IMHO we would probably have a lot less of those manual fixes, when there would be an easier way to "repair stuff" like a revert button. A normal mapper currently simply don't have a lot of other options to repair stuff than to try to do it manually :-) > As soon as someone has edited anything in the changeset after the > version in the changeset, then you have a conflict and can't do a simple > one click revert. OpenStreetMap data is a *lot* more complex than the > Wikipedia when it comes to reverting due to the referential integrity. > That is key to there not being a simple revert system for whole changesets. Yes, I'm aware of that. However, the question is how often will this actually happen if someone wants to revert stuff - IMO this is only rarely the case for the time period where a revert is really interesting. >> If the edit can't be reverted because of conflicts, simply show a: >> "can't revert because of editing conflicts" message. >> >> I guess this would already solve 99.99% of all cases. > > Only in the seconds/hours after the edit was made (depending on how > active the mappers in the area are). The further back in time you go the > more conflicts you get and the harder it is. Yes, the revert will probably only be possible in the few hours / days after the changeset was done. I don't expect a changeset done three months ago to be actually revertable - probably a good thing in that case ;-) Regards, ULFL ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
I agree with Pieren on this. Monitoring changesets should also be as easy as in Wikipedia. Therefore, I imagine we should show features which have been created/updated/deleted in different colors (eg: green/blue/red) on the changeset page. As this could result in a big vector load for the browser, I guess this would have to be a static raster tile, which could be loaded as an OpenLayers.Layer.Image in OpenLayers. F. On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 12:47 PM, Pieren wrote: > On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Chris Hill wrote: >> And when a vandal chooses to undo all the changesets you have added in the >> last few months how will you feel then? >> >> Cheers, Chris >> > > Then I will revert his changeset. And if it happens again, I will call > the community for some help. As wikipedian do every day in one click. > We cannot, in one way, make edition easy and quick (e.g. the online > editor) and in the other way, make reverting edits complicated and > long. This could work only if you give access to educated and trusted > contributors. > Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
On 14 Jul 2009, at 09:50, Ulf Lamping wrote: Tom Hughes schrieb: because in general terms it won't work - reverting will often need manual intervention to resolve conflicts. I've heard this argument many times before, but no prove that it is actually true. Why not do it the osm way, implement it the simplest possible way and see how far we get? People who have reverted stuff in the past have already come across the conflicts. This is especially true when you have someone who has tried to fix the problem manually before asking for help. As soon as someone has edited anything in the changeset after the version in the changeset, then you have a conflict and can't do a simple one click revert. OpenStreetMap data is a *lot* more complex than the Wikipedia when it comes to reverting due to the referential integrity. That is key to there not being a simple revert system for whole changesets. If the edit can't be reverted because of conflicts, simply show a: "can't revert because of editing conflicts" message. I guess this would already solve 99.99% of all cases. Only in the seconds/hours after the edit was made (depending on how active the mappers in the area are). The further back in time you go the more conflicts you get and the harder it is. Shaun smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Chris Hill wrote: > And when a vandal chooses to undo all the changesets you have added in the > last few months how will you feel then? > > Cheers, Chris > Then I will revert his changeset. And if it happens again, I will call the community for some help. As wikipedian do every day in one click. We cannot, in one way, make edition easy and quick (e.g. the online editor) and in the other way, make reverting edits complicated and long. This could work only if you give access to educated and trusted contributors. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
And when a vandal chooses to undo all the changesets you have added in the last few months how will you feel then? Cheers, Chris Pieren wrote: On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 10:50 AM, Ulf Lamping wrote: Why not? Wikipedia seems to be living pretty well with that approach (yes, I'm aware that there are differences to osm, as the revert button of a page only appears on that pages history, not on a "global revert list" as it would be in our case). I agree with Ulf. We should follow the wikipedia approach. Undoing mistakes/vandalism should be as easy as creating mistakes/vandalism. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 10:50 AM, Ulf Lamping wrote: > Why not? Wikipedia seems to be living pretty well with that approach > (yes, I'm aware that there are differences to osm, as the revert button > of a page only appears on that pages history, not on a "global revert > list" as it would be in our case). I agree with Ulf. We should follow the wikipedia approach. Undoing mistakes/vandalism should be as easy as creating mistakes/vandalism. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
--- On Tue, 14/7/09, Tom Hughes wrote: > If you're saying that it should mail some mythical team of > ninja mappers > who will spring into action and revert the changeset then > you're going > to need to establish the team of ninja mappers first before > we can add > the button. Why not start simpler, just have a changeset flagged and will then appear on a secondary list that people can watch. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
Tom Hughes schrieb: > On 14/07/09 08:30, Bernhard zwischenbrugger wrote: > >> Now we have the changesets like >> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/1815935 >> >> It's relative easy to identify bad edits. >> >> Is it possible to add an "undo request button" or "spam button" to this >> page? > > What are you expecting this button to do? > > If you want it to actually revert the change then the simple answer is > that such a button probably won't appear, both because we don't want to > make it too easy Why not? Wikipedia seems to be living pretty well with that approach (yes, I'm aware that there are differences to osm, as the revert button of a page only appears on that pages history, not on a "global revert list" as it would be in our case). > because in general terms it won't work - reverting > will often need manual intervention to resolve conflicts. I've heard this argument many times before, but no prove that it is actually true. Why not do it the osm way, implement it the simplest possible way and see how far we get? If the edit can't be reverted because of conflicts, simply show a: "can't revert because of editing conflicts" message. I guess this would already solve 99.99% of all cases. > If you're saying that it should mail some mythical team of ninja mappers > who will spring into action and revert the changeset then you're going > to need to establish the team of ninja mappers first before we can add > the button. Well, chicken and egg problem :-) > Anyway, to draw on Frederik's workshop at SOTM the actual revert is in > many ways the easy part - the hard thing is establishing the authority > to do the revert. In other words the question of who gets to decide that > an edit is "bad" and should be reverted. Yes, if we need to have those ninja mapper group, then this problem appears. Regards, ULFL ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Undo request button for changesets
On 14/07/09 08:30, Bernhard zwischenbrugger wrote: > Now we have the changesets like > http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/1815935 > > It's relative easy to identify bad edits. > > Is it possible to add an "undo request button" or "spam button" to this > page? What are you expecting this button to do? If you want it to actually revert the change then the simple answer is that such a button probably won't appear, both because we don't want to make it too easy and because in general terms it won't work - reverting will often need manual intervention to resolve conflicts. If you're saying that it should mail some mythical team of ninja mappers who will spring into action and revert the changeset then you're going to need to establish the team of ninja mappers first before we can add the button. Anyway, to draw on Frederik's workshop at SOTM the actual revert is in many ways the easy part - the hard thing is establishing the authority to do the revert. In other words the question of who gets to decide that an edit is "bad" and should be reverted. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
