Re: [OSM-talk-be] It was only a matter of time ...

[Jo]

2015-01-14 21:22 GMT+01:00 Glenn Plas :

>
> > Perhaps I should try it out, I only tried out what it produces, so
> it's
> > frustrating.  I have the feeling from looking at the data that it
> > doesn't take the existing data into account, when someone marks a
> > speed_camera, it's usually not connected to the way, but right on
> top of
> > it however (not taking into account the missing relations that
> should be
> > created for enforcements).
> >
> >
> > I don't think speed_cams should be nodes on the way. They should be next
> > to the way at the exact position where they are. Sometimes to the right,
> > sometimes to the left  one the 'middenberm'.
>
> Indeed, but ID users want them on the road, that is the intention anyway
> looking at the data.  A speedcamera isn't any good without the
> enforcement relation anyways.
>

I've been ranting about this on this ML a few months ago. Back then I also
located each and every one of them (with Overpass API) and dragged them off
the highways. I think it was OsmAnd that expected them as nodes on the way,
but that has since then been resolved on their side.

>
> >
> > > What happens after that, is entirely up to us. Personally, I'm not
> > > actively monitoring the edits in my neighbourhood. Maybe I should,
> but
> > > I'm already spending too much time on OSM, as it is.
> >
> > It's quite easy actually, I use an RSS feed to warn me about it. Just
> > mark a bounding box:
> >
> > http://zverik.osm.rambler.ru/whodidit/
> >
> > My bounding box would comprise all of Belgium...
>
> You can do that but split it up in area's, it would probably be 10 RSS
> feeds to capture belgium.  I have 3 area's  I monitor.
>

I don't know when I'd have time to check, and especially respond to them. I
think I'll have to choose my 'battles' and I'm concentrating on keeping the
route relations correct and up-to-date. That's something which can be
achieved nation wide, I think. Once I start doing the same for cycle and
walking routes, it should highlight problems caused by newly arriving
mappers at that level. Hopefully it will also lead to finding people with
an interest in these various route relations and with a willingness to help
maintain them.

The history viewer is great. Thanks for letting me know about it. It will
come in handy, I'm sure.
I looked at an edit of myself, realigning the entire bus station of
Aarschot on a grid, (which is probably exaggerated, but it makes the
rendering look really nice, while stil adhering to what's actually present).
Unfortunately I can't zoom in far enough for the differences to show up in
a meaningful way.

Jo
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] It was only a matter of time ...

[Glenn Plas]

> Perhaps I should try it out, I only tried out what it produces, so it's
> frustrating.  I have the feeling from looking at the data that it
> doesn't take the existing data into account, when someone marks a
> speed_camera, it's usually not connected to the way, but right on top of
> it however (not taking into account the missing relations that should be
> created for enforcements).
> 
> 
> I don't think speed_cams should be nodes on the way. They should be next
> to the way at the exact position where they are. Sometimes to the right,
> sometimes to the left  one the 'middenberm'.

Indeed, but ID users want them on the road, that is the intention anyway
looking at the data.  A speedcamera isn't any good without the
enforcement relation anyways.

> 
> > What happens after that, is entirely up to us. Personally, I'm not
> > actively monitoring the edits in my neighbourhood. Maybe I should, but
> > I'm already spending too much time on OSM, as it is.
> 
> It's quite easy actually, I use an RSS feed to warn me about it. Just
> mark a bounding box:
> 
> http://zverik.osm.rambler.ru/whodidit/
> 
> My bounding box would comprise all of Belgium...

You can do that but split it up in area's, it would probably be 10 RSS
feeds to capture belgium.  I have 3 area's  I monitor.


>  
> 
> When I see something that catches my attention, I analyse the changeset
> here:
> 
> http://osmhv.openstreetmap.de
> 
> I'll have to try that one. I wasn't aware of it. Thanks>  

Also not patented :)




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Re: [OSM-talk-be] It was only a matter of time ...

[Jo]

2015-01-14 20:15 GMT+01:00 Glenn Plas :

> On 14-01-15 19:30, Jo wrote:
> > iD has many flaws, but one thing can't be beat about it. It provides
> > (new) users with an easy way to enter into our world.
>
> Perhaps I should try it out, I only tried out what it produces, so it's
> frustrating.  I have the feeling from looking at the data that it
> doesn't take the existing data into account, when someone marks a
> speed_camera, it's usually not connected to the way, but right on top of
> it however (not taking into account the missing relations that should be
> created for enforcements).
>

I don't think speed_cams should be nodes on the way. They should be next to
the way at the exact position where they are. Sometimes to the right,
sometimes to the left  one the 'middenberm'.

>
> > What happens after that, is entirely up to us. Personally, I'm not
> > actively monitoring the edits in my neighbourhood. Maybe I should, but
> > I'm already spending too much time on OSM, as it is.
>
> It's quite easy actually, I use an RSS feed to warn me about it. Just
> mark a bounding box:
>
> http://zverik.osm.rambler.ru/whodidit/
>
> My bounding box would comprise all of Belgium...


> When I see something that catches my attention, I analyse the changeset
> here:
>
> http://osmhv.openstreetmap.de
>
> I'll have to try that one. I wasn't aware of it. Thanks


> You can quickly glance over the tags and/or see the visual changes done.
>  Quite the tool, wish it was an easier thing to get it running myself,
> there is a waiting queue from time to time.  It's a java based so not my
> favorite setup.  JOSM is about the only java tool I think works excellent.
>
> >
> > Talking to people in Namur is a good idea, but I think many of the
> > people going there are already 'converted' or already part of the
> community.
>
> It is my impression that is not the case in fact, remember, OSM is only
> talked about for a good hour or so.  It is the ideal harvesting grounds
> however as the visitors there have the Open Data mindset.  But it is far
> bigger than just OSM.  I'll ask the question in my presentation and
> thank them ;-)
>
> Sounds good.


> > It's those new and occasional mappers we should welcome with open arms
> > and introduce gently.
>
> As long as they start small, I'm fine. I started out with tiny edits
> before growing into it.  the IT background does help.
>
> > Another good initiative would be to go and talk to people in
> > hiking/walking clubs or maybe even those places where 65+ learn about
> > working with computers. But I don't have time to do that either.
>
> Perhaps I should talk to the local chapter here, there are many people
> occupying themselves with the 'trage wegen' / 'kerkwegjes' etc.  I know
> a few of them -a bit-, good idea!
>

And I didn't even patent it :-)

Jo
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] It was only a matter of time ...

[Glenn Plas]

On 14-01-15 19:30, Jo wrote:
> iD has many flaws, but one thing can't be beat about it. It provides
> (new) users with an easy way to enter into our world.

Perhaps I should try it out, I only tried out what it produces, so it's
frustrating.  I have the feeling from looking at the data that it
doesn't take the existing data into account, when someone marks a
speed_camera, it's usually not connected to the way, but right on top of
it however (not taking into account the missing relations that should be
created for enforcements).

> What happens after that, is entirely up to us. Personally, I'm not
> actively monitoring the edits in my neighbourhood. Maybe I should, but
> I'm already spending too much time on OSM, as it is.

It's quite easy actually, I use an RSS feed to warn me about it. Just
mark a bounding box:

http://zverik.osm.rambler.ru/whodidit/

When I see something that catches my attention, I analyse the changeset
here:

http://osmhv.openstreetmap.de

You can quickly glance over the tags and/or see the visual changes done.
 Quite the tool, wish it was an easier thing to get it running myself,
there is a waiting queue from time to time.  It's a java based so not my
favorite setup.  JOSM is about the only java tool I think works excellent.

>
> Talking to people in Namur is a good idea, but I think many of the
> people going there are already 'converted' or already part of the
community.

It is my impression that is not the case in fact, remember, OSM is only
talked about for a good hour or so.  It is the ideal harvesting grounds
however as the visitors there have the Open Data mindset.  But it is far
bigger that just OSM.  I'll ask the question in my presentation and
thank them

> It's those new and occasional mappers we should welcome with open arms
> and introduce gently.

As long as they start small, I'm fine. I started out with tiny edits
before growing into it.  the IT background does help.

> Another good initiative would be to go and talk to people in
> hiking/walking clubs or maybe even those places where 65+ learn about
> working with computers. But I don't have time to do that either.

Perhaps I should talk to the local chapter here, there are many people
occupying themselves with the 'trage wegen' / 'kerkwegjes' etc.  I know
a few of them -a bit-, good idea!


Glenn


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Re: [OSM-talk-be] It was only a matter of time ...

[Glenn Plas]

For a first time user, his edit wasn't actually _that_ bad.  The shape
of the buildings was far better than mine, so I kept that.

We have to seize the opportunity on the OpenData conference in Namur to
get fresh blood in and warn about ID editor, promoting JOSM.

I only used the reverter plugin less than 5 times in all those years,
this one wasn't one of them.  I tried to keep the good work, correcting
the bad.

I always try to invite these users to the mailing list and point them to
the documentation on housenumbers Sander wrote.

Glenn

On 14-01-15 19:03, Jo wrote:
> This mapper just registered today. Even though he managed to 'destroy'
> some data during his first attempts at editing the map, I believe our
> first priority should be to welcome him in our midst. The second step is
> show him the light and explain what JOSM is and how it's far superior to
> iD, LOL.
> 
> If the data is terribly disrupted, it's relatively easy to revert the
> edit for really serious cases, especially when no further edits have
> occurred yet.
> 
> Losing/alienating 'fresh mapper blood' is a much bigger problem. So it's
> important we're as constructive as possible. It's a community project
> and we desperately need that community to grow bigger.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Jo
> 
> 2015-01-14 18:14 GMT+01:00 Glenn Plas  >:
> 
> On 14-01-15 18:04, Sander Deryckere wrote:
> > It's quite likely he doesn't know what a multipolygon is. iD creates
> > those for the user when they "merge" areas. That merging is meant to
> > make holes in areas.
> 
> Ok, great to know this, tx I didn't realise.  ID also doesn't seem to
> validate as the original buildings (parts of) where still there it
> seems.
> 
> >
> > So I guess he merges some form with another form, and iD creates a
> > multipolygon without the user knowing it.
> >
> > The realigning of course is his fault, and I hope in the near future we
> > can just point them to use MapBox (which will use Agiv imagery). Since
> > copy-pasting a TMS url to iD for every session is a bit tedious.
> 
> Indeed, I think the biggest problem is realising there is a better
> source and also skills to understand that some sat photo's aren't
> looking at the earth in a 90 degree angle.  I'm sure you'll find houses
> like that from my hand as well before AGIV came along.
> 
> >
> > (btw, I reached 95% completeness on my town, 8840, the remaining ~165
> > are mostly unclear addresses and some plain mistakes that need to be
> > reported to Agiv, so that will be a slow 5%. Most of the reports I made
> > were solved rather quickly so far.)
> 
> 
> I pretty much completed all I could, the remaining issues are usually
> borderline problems, only a few mistakes or a place where the node is
> way off (usually centralised in the middle of the property) but where
> the house is way off.  I never use the meters option in the tool, I keep
> the default behavior there.
> 
> But like this person made a second changeset where he popped number 110
> into a row clearly in the 80's.  It's way off, he mentions the source
> which is the website of Century 21 and funny enough, that site has got
> the number wrong, hence they introduce errors.
> 
> I wish there was a way to let a mapper know the area has been
> housenumbered against trusty sources.
> 
> Glenn
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] It was only a matter of time ...

[Jo]

This mapper just registered today. Even though he managed to 'destroy' some
data during his first attempts at editing the map, I believe our first
priority should be to welcome him in our midst. The second step is show him
the light and explain what JOSM is and how it's far superior to iD, LOL.

If the data is terribly disrupted, it's relatively easy to revert the edit
for really serious cases, especially when no further edits have occurred
yet.

Losing/alienating 'fresh mapper blood' is a much bigger problem. So it's
important we're as constructive as possible. It's a community project and
we desperately need that community to grow bigger.

Cheers,

Jo

2015-01-14 18:14 GMT+01:00 Glenn Plas :

> On 14-01-15 18:04, Sander Deryckere wrote:
> > It's quite likely he doesn't know what a multipolygon is. iD creates
> > those for the user when they "merge" areas. That merging is meant to
> > make holes in areas.
>
> Ok, great to know this, tx I didn't realise.  ID also doesn't seem to
> validate as the original buildings (parts of) where still there it seems.
>
> >
> > So I guess he merges some form with another form, and iD creates a
> > multipolygon without the user knowing it.
> >
> > The realigning of course is his fault, and I hope in the near future we
> > can just point them to use MapBox (which will use Agiv imagery). Since
> > copy-pasting a TMS url to iD for every session is a bit tedious.
>
> Indeed, I think the biggest problem is realising there is a better
> source and also skills to understand that some sat photo's aren't
> looking at the earth in a 90 degree angle.  I'm sure you'll find houses
> like that from my hand as well before AGIV came along.
>
> >
> > (btw, I reached 95% completeness on my town, 8840, the remaining ~165
> > are mostly unclear addresses and some plain mistakes that need to be
> > reported to Agiv, so that will be a slow 5%. Most of the reports I made
> > were solved rather quickly so far.)
>
>
> I pretty much completed all I could, the remaining issues are usually
> borderline problems, only a few mistakes or a place where the node is
> way off (usually centralised in the middle of the property) but where
> the house is way off.  I never use the meters option in the tool, I keep
> the default behavior there.
>
> But like this person made a second changeset where he popped number 110
> into a row clearly in the 80's.  It's way off, he mentions the source
> which is the website of Century 21 and funny enough, that site has got
> the number wrong, hence they introduce errors.
>
> I wish there was a way to let a mapper know the area has been
> housenumbered against trusty sources.
>
> Glenn
>
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] It was only a matter of time ...

[Glenn Plas]

On 14-01-15 18:04, Sander Deryckere wrote:
> It's quite likely he doesn't know what a multipolygon is. iD creates
> those for the user when they "merge" areas. That merging is meant to
> make holes in areas.

Ok, great to know this, tx I didn't realise.  ID also doesn't seem to
validate as the original buildings (parts of) where still there it seems.

> 
> So I guess he merges some form with another form, and iD creates a
> multipolygon without the user knowing it.
> 
> The realigning of course is his fault, and I hope in the near future we
> can just point them to use MapBox (which will use Agiv imagery). Since
> copy-pasting a TMS url to iD for every session is a bit tedious.

Indeed, I think the biggest problem is realising there is a better
source and also skills to understand that some sat photo's aren't
looking at the earth in a 90 degree angle.  I'm sure you'll find houses
like that from my hand as well before AGIV came along.

> 
> (btw, I reached 95% completeness on my town, 8840, the remaining ~165
> are mostly unclear addresses and some plain mistakes that need to be
> reported to Agiv, so that will be a slow 5%. Most of the reports I made
> were solved rather quickly so far.)


I pretty much completed all I could, the remaining issues are usually
borderline problems, only a few mistakes or a place where the node is
way off (usually centralised in the middle of the property) but where
the house is way off.  I never use the meters option in the tool, I keep
the default behavior there.

But like this person made a second changeset where he popped number 110
into a row clearly in the 80's.  It's way off, he mentions the source
which is the website of Century 21 and funny enough, that site has got
the number wrong, hence they introduce errors.

I wish there was a way to let a mapper know the area has been
housenumbered against trusty sources.

Glenn

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] It was only a matter of time ...

[Sander Deryckere]

It's quite likely he doesn't know what a multipolygon is. iD creates those
for the user when they "merge" areas. That merging is meant to make holes
in areas.

So I guess he merges some form with another form, and iD creates a
multipolygon without the user knowing it.

The realigning of course is his fault, and I hope in the near future we can
just point them to use MapBox (which will use Agiv imagery). Since
copy-pasting a TMS url to iD for every session is a bit tedious.

(btw, I reached 95% completeness on my town, 8840, the remaining ~165 are
mostly unclear addresses and some plain mistakes that need to be reported
to Agiv, so that will be a slow 5%. Most of the reports I made were solved
rather quickly so far.)

Regards,
Sander

2015-01-14 17:56 GMT+01:00 Glenn Plas :

> I know, just figured this out myself, I didn't know, I'll correct it.
>
>  14-01-15 17:54, Marc Gemis wrote:
> > one small mistake from your side :-)
> > building=residential is allowed,
> > see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:building%3Dresidential
> > But if it was building=house (or another more specialised description)
> > before, it would be wrong to retag it of course.
> >
> > regards
> >
> > m
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 5:49 PM, Glenn Plas  > > wrote:
> >
> > I really start hating the ID editor + bing as a background.  I
> completed
> > all streetnames/buildings on postal codes 1980/1981/1982
> >
> > This changeset pretty much destroyed most of my work,  simple
> buildings
> > are turned into multipolygons,  building=residential.
> >
> > Realigning the buildings is piece of cake luckily. The worst part is
> > that he actually thinks he's corrected stuff.
> >
> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/28140575
> >
> > The common denominator is always ID + Bing.
> >
> > Glenn
> >
> > --
> > "Everything is going to be 200 OK."
> >
> > ___
> > Talk-be mailing list
> > Talk-be@openstreetmap.org 
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
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> >
>
>
> --
> "Everything is going to be 200 OK."
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] It was only a matter of time ...

[Glenn Plas]

I know, just figured this out myself, I didn't know, I'll correct it.

 14-01-15 17:54, Marc Gemis wrote:
> one small mistake from your side :-)
> building=residential is allowed,
> see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:building%3Dresidential
> But if it was building=house (or another more specialised description)
> before, it would be wrong to retag it of course.
> 
> regards
> 
> m
> 
> On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 5:49 PM, Glenn Plas  > wrote:
> 
> I really start hating the ID editor + bing as a background.  I completed
> all streetnames/buildings on postal codes 1980/1981/1982
> 
> This changeset pretty much destroyed most of my work,  simple buildings
> are turned into multipolygons,  building=residential.
> 
> Realigning the buildings is piece of cake luckily. The worst part is
> that he actually thinks he's corrected stuff.
> 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/28140575
> 
> The common denominator is always ID + Bing.
> 
> Glenn
> 
> --
> "Everything is going to be 200 OK."
> 
> ___
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> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] It was only a matter of time ...

[Marc Gemis]

one small mistake from your side :-)
building=residential is allowed, see
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:building%3Dresidential
But if it was building=house (or another more specialised description)
before, it would be wrong to retag it of course.

regards

m

On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 5:49 PM, Glenn Plas  wrote:

> I really start hating the ID editor + bing as a background.  I completed
> all streetnames/buildings on postal codes 1980/1981/1982
>
> This changeset pretty much destroyed most of my work,  simple buildings
> are turned into multipolygons,  building=residential.
>
> Realigning the buildings is piece of cake luckily. The worst part is
> that he actually thinks he's corrected stuff.
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/28140575
>
> The common denominator is always ID + Bing.
>
> Glenn
>
> --
> "Everything is going to be 200 OK."
>
> ___
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[OSM-talk-be] It was only a matter of time ...

[Glenn Plas]

I really start hating the ID editor + bing as a background.  I completed
all streetnames/buildings on postal codes 1980/1981/1982

This changeset pretty much destroyed most of my work,  simple buildings
are turned into multipolygons,  building=residential.

Realigning the buildings is piece of cake luckily. The worst part is
that he actually thinks he's corrected stuff.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/28140575

The common denominator is always ID + Bing.

Glenn

-- 
"Everything is going to be 200 OK."

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