Re: [OSM-talk-be] Some maxspeed mapping questions

[Ben Laenen]

On Friday 11 November 2011 14:01:05 Gerard Vanderveken wrote:
> When the node is not part of the highway, its position left or right
> from the highway is enough to determine the apllicable direction of the
> way.

Many traffic signs are placed on the left side of the street, and not all of 
them are just a repeater of the sign on the right...

Furthermore there's the problem at junctions, bridges, multiple roads right 
next to each other, etc...


> But I would always tag nodes of the highway itself, for not having
> the confusion where a node belongs to.
> Apart from indication of the exact position, I don't see any good
> reasons to put signs outside the highway or to map them as sign in the
> first place.

It's exactly what our Flemish agency is doing with their 
"Verkeersbordendatabank" 
http://www.mobielvlaanderen.be/verkeersbordendatabank/index.php

Ben


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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Some maxspeed mapping questions

[Gerard Vanderveken]

Jo wrote:


While starting to change a mini_roundabout which wasn't actually a
mini_roundabout, I went a little overboard and this is the result:

It is a 'verhoogd kruispunt', so I tagged all the elevated ways with:

traffic_calming=table

And the places where the bumps are 'felt' with:

traffic_calming=bump

This is double marking, the end of the roadsegment of a table is by 
nature always a "bump".

But the real bump for traffic_calming is in fact something else
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:traffic_calming%3Dbump
So, traffic_calming=bump is not realy applicable here.



I added the cycleways and cycleway tags and then I had to change the
rcn and rwn relations

The rcn had this, which I have been removing everywhere, since it's a
Dutch word:

nettype=knoop

I left these tags:
rit=x

Although I don't know what they stand for and where they come from.
Should they stay? Are they useful for anyone? I don't think rit is an
English term and there are maybe 100-150 out of 5000 routes which have
this tag.


It could be translated as lap
Maybe it is a route number.
Did you try to contact the user that inserted the tagr?
If it is something personal,  it should be deleted.



Concerning the nettype. While editing a bit in Germany (and in the
border area Hohes Venn), my script ran in trouble when trying to
detect new rcn routes, because the Germans use rcn for many different
kinds of cycle routes. In the mean time I found that normally I can
distinguish between the cycle node networks because we don't use ref
tags and they do on the other networks.
While 'complaining' about the mess, they suggested I add an additional
tag to the cycle node network rcn relations, since those were the
exception worldwide. So, does it make sense to add something like:

network:type = numbered_nodes
nettype = numbered_nodes

to our rcn networks?


I would propose to add on these relation for  node networks something like
numbered_nodes=yes
or simply
nodes=yes



Sorry for rambling on and on... those are questions that I've been
wondering about for a while and which all surfaced now during the
editing of a simple junction...

Jo

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Some maxspeed mapping questions

[Gerard Vanderveken]

Ben Laenen wrote:


On Friday 11 November 2011 09:50:16 Gerard Vanderveken wrote:
 


Ben Laenen wrote:
   


This is an unsolved question... Some may use directions like N/E/S/W for
north/east/south/west. But then you also need to be able to attach the
node to the proper way (bridges and dual carriageways make this a
difficult problem).
 


I would rather use the left / right suffixes in stead of directions, as
they define the position always clear
(eventually  forward / backward, but it seems somewhat deprecated)
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/right_left
   



But this doesn't work for single nodes not connected to a way. 
Left/right/forward/backward become pretty meaningless on single nodes :-)


Ben
 

When the node is not part of the highway, its position left or right 
from the highway is enough to determine the apllicable direction of the way.
But I would always tag nodes of the highway itself, for not having the 
confusion where a node belongs to.
Apart from indication of the exact position, I don't see any good 
reasons to put signs outside the highway or to map them as sign in the 
first place.
Their consequences are applicable to the highway segments an that's what 
and where it should be tagged.


Gerard
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Some maxspeed mapping questions

[Jo]

Oops, forgot to add a link to the former mini_roundabout in question.

I'm adding it to this thread, because it all started with a bus stop
Marc wanted to add there :-)

Jo

2011/11/11 Jo :
> While starting to change a mini_roundabout which wasn't actually a
> mini_roundabout, I went a little overboard and this is the result:
>
> It is a 'verhoogd kruispunt', so I tagged all the elevated ways with:
>
> traffic_calming=table
>
> And the places where the bumps are 'felt' with:
>
> traffic_calming=bump
>
> I added the cycleways and cycleway tags and then I had to change the
> rcn and rwn relations
>
> The rcn had this, which I have been removing everywhere, since it's a
> Dutch word:
>
> nettype=knoop
>
> I left these tags:
> rit=x
>
> Although I don't know what they stand for and where they come from.
> Should they stay? Are they useful for anyone? I don't think rit is an
> English term and there are maybe 100-150 out of 5000 routes which have
> this tag.
>
> Concerning the nettype. While editing a bit in Germany (and in the
> border area Hohes Venn), my script ran in trouble when trying to
> detect new rcn routes, because the Germans use rcn for many different
> kinds of cycle routes. In the mean time I found that normally I can
> distinguish between the cycle node networks because we don't use ref
> tags and they do on the other networks.
> While 'complaining' about the mess, they suggested I add an additional
> tag to the cycle node network rcn relations, since those were the
> exception worldwide. So, does it make sense to add something like:
>
> network:type = numbered_nodes
> nettype = numbered_nodes
>
> to our rcn networks?
>
> Sorry for rambling on and on... those are questions that I've been
> wondering about for a while and which all surfaced now during the
> editing of a simple junction...
>
> Jo
>

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Some maxspeed mapping questions

[Ben Laenen]

On Friday 11 November 2011 11:34:21 Sander Deryckere wrote:
> The page on maxspeed is this one:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:maxspeed
> 
> The page you gave is a page that explains the possibilities to tag the
> source of the maxspeed (a sign, or a missing sign). In general, sources are
> only useful to help other mappers or yourself. So if you have the correct
> maxspeed tag on the roads, there's not really a need to tag the source.

On the contrary, if you tag a street without a traffic sign with maxspeed=90, 
and our government suddenly decides that 70 ought to be enough for streets 
outside built-up areas (the Flemish government wants to do that) it would be 
easier to know which roads should be retagged and on which roads there are 
actually signs with "90" if we know the reason why it's tagged with that 
maxspeed.

Greetings
Ben

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Some maxspeed mapping questions

[Ben Laenen]

On Friday 11 November 2011 09:50:16 Gerard Vanderveken wrote:
> Ben Laenen wrote:
> >This is an unsolved question... Some may use directions like N/E/S/W for
> >north/east/south/west. But then you also need to be able to attach the
> >node to the proper way (bridges and dual carriageways make this a
> >difficult problem).
> 
> I would rather use the left / right suffixes in stead of directions, as
> they define the position always clear
> (eventually  forward / backward, but it seems somewhat deprecated)
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/right_left

But this doesn't work for single nodes not connected to a way. 
Left/right/forward/backward become pretty meaningless on single nodes :-)

Ben

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Some maxspeed mapping questions

[Sander Deryckere]

The page on maxspeed is this one:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:maxspeed

The page you gave is a page that explains the possibilities to tag the
source of the maxspeed (a sign, or a missing sign). In general, sources are
only useful to help other mappers or yourself. So if you have the correct
maxspeed tag on the roads, there's not really a need to tag the source.

Regards,
Sander

2011/11/11 Marc Gemis 

> Here is the page on maxspeed.
>
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source:maxspeed
>
> this is the section on the signs that left me with the questions
>
> Tagging sign positions
>
> Practice has shown that it is generally useful to *additionally* map the
> positions of maxspeed signs. It is suggested to put a node at the actual
> sign position and tag it with
>
>- traffic_sign =
>
> maxspeed
>- maxspeed =50 for a
>limit of 50 km/h
>
> This procedure is really helpful for other mappers and for yourself, as it
> is almost impossible to not overlook a sign while mapping an area the first
> time. It is suggested to also map repeated maxspeed signs. *Please note
> that this procedure is an additional help for mappers and still requires to
> map the maxspeed limits on the way as well!*
> *
> *
> *
> *
> There is also a section on the source, which I did not apply before, I
> used to only put a maxspeed tag on the way
>
> examples
>
> e.g.
>
>- maxspeed =50 and *
>source:maxspeed*=IT:urban
>- maxspeed =100 and *
>source:maxspeed*=DE:rural
>- maxspeed =130 and *
>source:maxspeed*=IT:motorway
>- maxspeed =50 and *
>source:maxspeed*=sign
>-
>- maxspeed =30 and *
>source:maxspeed*=DE:zone - Proposed by a majority on the mailing list
>- maxspeed =30 and *
>source:maxspeed*=DE:zone30 - Most used value
>- maxspeed =30 and *
>source:maxspeed*=DE:zone:30 - Second most used value
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Some maxspeed mapping questions

[Marc Gemis]

Here is the page on maxspeed.


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source:maxspeed

this is the section on the signs that left me with the questions

Tagging sign positions

Practice has shown that it is generally useful to *additionally* map the
positions of maxspeed signs. It is suggested to put a node at the actual
sign position and tag it with

   - traffic_sign =
   
maxspeed
   - maxspeed =50 for a
   limit of 50 km/h

This procedure is really helpful for other mappers and for yourself, as it
is almost impossible to not overlook a sign while mapping an area the first
time. It is suggested to also map repeated maxspeed signs. *Please note
that this procedure is an additional help for mappers and still requires to
map the maxspeed limits on the way as well!*
*
*
*
*
There is also a section on the source, which I did not apply before, I used
to only put a maxspeed tag on the way

examples

e.g.

   - maxspeed =50 and *
   source:maxspeed*=IT:urban
   - maxspeed =100 and *
   source:maxspeed*=DE:rural
   - maxspeed =130 and *
   source:maxspeed*=IT:motorway
   - maxspeed =50 and *
   source:maxspeed*=sign
   -
   - maxspeed =30 and *
   source:maxspeed*=DE:zone - Proposed by a majority on the mailing list
   - maxspeed =30 and *
   source:maxspeed*=DE:zone30 - Most used value
   - maxspeed =30 and *
   source:maxspeed*=DE:zone:30 - Second most used value
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Some maxspeed mapping questions

[Jo]

While starting to change a mini_roundabout which wasn't actually a
mini_roundabout, I went a little overboard and this is the result:

It is a 'verhoogd kruispunt', so I tagged all the elevated ways with:

traffic_calming=table

And the places where the bumps are 'felt' with:

traffic_calming=bump

I added the cycleways and cycleway tags and then I had to change the
rcn and rwn relations

The rcn had this, which I have been removing everywhere, since it's a
Dutch word:

nettype=knoop

I left these tags:
rit=x

Although I don't know what they stand for and where they come from.
Should they stay? Are they useful for anyone? I don't think rit is an
English term and there are maybe 100-150 out of 5000 routes which have
this tag.

Concerning the nettype. While editing a bit in Germany (and in the
border area Hohes Venn), my script ran in trouble when trying to
detect new rcn routes, because the Germans use rcn for many different
kinds of cycle routes. In the mean time I found that normally I can
distinguish between the cycle node networks because we don't use ref
tags and they do on the other networks.
While 'complaining' about the mess, they suggested I add an additional
tag to the cycle node network rcn relations, since those were the
exception worldwide. So, does it make sense to add something like:

network:type = numbered_nodes
nettype = numbered_nodes

to our rcn networks?

Sorry for rambling on and on... those are questions that I've been
wondering about for a while and which all surfaced now during the
editing of a simple junction...

Jo

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Some maxspeed mapping questions

[Gerard Vanderveken]

Ben Laenen wrote:


On Thursday 10 November 2011 17:31:10 Marc Gemis wrote:
 


I've read the wikipage on maxspeed tagging, but I have the following
questions:

- How does one tag the end of a zone, I cannot find the number of that sign
? Start zone should be tagged with BE:F4a
   



Zone traffic signs don't have numbers (with the exception of a zone 30 which 
has a specific sign number). You could invent something like zone(C43[50]) for 
a zone 50.


 


- How do you tag different speeds for 'cars' and e.g. +5t ?
   



Doesn't really have an agreed way of tagging. I made an effort solving this by 
making http://mijndev.openstreetmap.nl/~eimai/verkeersborden/ (not finished, 
don't look at the highway tags; use Firefox, maybe Chrome works as well). 
Click the signs and the tags appear.


In this case it would be something like
maxspeed = 70
maxspeed[weight>5] = 50

It's sufficient that everyone understands it, the exact syntax doesn't matter 
too much for now, since there are no programs able to read it anyway for now.
 


See also
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Scope_for_access_tags

 


- In case I create individual nodes for the the traffic sign (as requested
on the wiki page), how do I indicate the direction for which the sign is
meant ?
   



This is an unsolved question... Some may use directions like N/E/S/W for 
north/east/south/west. But then you also need to be able to attach the node to 
the proper way (bridges and dual carriageways make this a difficult problem).


I would rather use the left / right suffixes in stead of directions, as 
they define the position always clear

(eventually  forward / backward, but it seems somewhat deprecated)
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/right_left

Regards,
Gerard



Greetings
Ben

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Some maxspeed mapping questions

[Sander Deryckere]

Op 10 nov. 2011 23:13 schreef "Ben Laenen"  het
volgende:
>
>
> Little note: even though heavy good vehicles are a vehicle class when it
comes
> to things like driver's licenses, they don't really exist at the level of
> traffic signs. The traffic sign with a truck on it applies to all goods
> vehicles, including small vans.
>
That's right, but I couldn't find a better syntax. Your syntax with square
brackets does look good.

>
> > I don't know what wiki page you read that suggests to tag the signs
instead
> > of the roads.
>
> IMHO, it's actually not a bad idea to tag the traffic signs as well, if
you
> also tag the roads themselves. There are many traffic signs that don't
> translate into tags.
>
It's not a bad idea, but I do wonder where the op read he should tag
maxspeeds with it.

Tagging the maxspeeds with this method is only good if all signs of that
area  get mapped and if the way also gets a speed tag.

Greetings,
Sander
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Some maxspeed mapping questions

[Ben Laenen]

On Thursday 10 November 2011 19:12:06 Sander Deryckere wrote:
> Normally, you should map the streets, not the signs. So that would mean you
> put the tag maxspeed=xx on the parts of the ways where you are allowed to
> drive xx km/h. If a way is too long, you need to split it.
> 
> For other vehicles, you can use a tag like maxspeed:vehicle=xx. As example:
> maxpeed:hgv=70 notes that heavy vehicles are only allowed to drive 70 km/h.

Little note: even though heavy good vehicles are a vehicle class when it comes 
to things like driver's licenses, they don't really exist at the level of 
traffic signs. The traffic sign with a truck on it applies to all goods 
vehicles, including small vans.


> I don't know what wiki page you read that suggests to tag the signs instead
> of the roads.

IMHO, it's actually not a bad idea to tag the traffic signs as well, if you 
also tag the roads themselves. There are many traffic signs that don't 
translate into tags.

Greetings,
Ben

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Some maxspeed mapping questions

[Ben Laenen]

On Thursday 10 November 2011 17:31:10 Marc Gemis wrote:
> I've read the wikipage on maxspeed tagging, but I have the following
> questions:
> 
> - How does one tag the end of a zone, I cannot find the number of that sign
> ? Start zone should be tagged with BE:F4a

Zone traffic signs don't have numbers (with the exception of a zone 30 which 
has a specific sign number). You could invent something like zone(C43[50]) for 
a zone 50.

> - How do you tag different speeds for 'cars' and e.g. +5t ?

Doesn't really have an agreed way of tagging. I made an effort solving this by 
making http://mijndev.openstreetmap.nl/~eimai/verkeersborden/ (not finished, 
don't look at the highway tags; use Firefox, maybe Chrome works as well). 
Click the signs and the tags appear.

In this case it would be something like
maxspeed = 70
maxspeed[weight>5] = 50

It's sufficient that everyone understands it, the exact syntax doesn't matter 
too much for now, since there are no programs able to read it anyway for now.

> - In case I create individual nodes for the the traffic sign (as requested
> on the wiki page), how do I indicate the direction for which the sign is
> meant ?

This is an unsolved question... Some may use directions like N/E/S/W for 
north/east/south/west. But then you also need to be able to attach the node to 
the proper way (bridges and dual carriageways make this a difficult problem).

Greetings
Ben

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Some maxspeed mapping questions

[Sander Deryckere]

Normally, you should map the streets, not the signs. So that would mean you
put the tag maxspeed=xx on the parts of the ways where you are allowed to
drive xx km/h. If a way is too long, you need to split it.

For other vehicles, you can use a tag like maxspeed:vehicle=xx. As example:
maxpeed:hgv=70 notes that heavy vehicles are only allowed to drive 70 km/h.

I don't know what wiki page you read that suggests to tag the signs instead
of the roads.

regards,
Sander

2011/11/10 Marc Gemis 

> I've read the wikipage on maxspeed tagging, but I have the following
> questions:
>
> - How does one tag the end of a zone, I cannot find the number of that
> sign ? Start zone should be tagged with BE:F4a
> - How do you tag different speeds for 'cars' and e.g. +5t ?
> - In case I create individual nodes for the the traffic sign (as requested
> on the wiki page), how do I indicate the direction for which the sign is
> meant ?
>
> m
>
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[OSM-talk-be] Some maxspeed mapping questions

[Marc Gemis]

I've read the wikipage on maxspeed tagging, but I have the following
questions:

- How does one tag the end of a zone, I cannot find the number of that sign
? Start zone should be tagged with BE:F4a
- How do you tag different speeds for 'cars' and e.g. +5t ?
- In case I create individual nodes for the the traffic sign (as requested
on the wiki page), how do I indicate the direction for which the sign is
meant ?

m
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