Re: [OSM-talk-be] opendata.antwerpen.be
2012/11/11 wannes > Will contact them. > thanks -- Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc - gsm : 0496 24 55 01 - wiki.rmll.be - wiki.wlsm.be RMLL - World libre software and culture meeting - WLSM Soutenez la candidature de Bruxelles, 6 => 11/7/2013. Liste orga sur http://lc.cx/Zia Support Brussels as candidate, July 6 to 11, 2013 - Orga list on http://lc.cx/Zia Lepacte.be - « promouvoir les libertés numériques en Belgique » - hetpact.be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] opendata.antwerpen.be
Will contact them. Op 11 nov. 2012 13:39 schreef "Jan-willem De Bleser" het volgende: > On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 12:27 PM, Ben Laenen wrote: > > On Thursday 08 November 2012 23:38:18 Jan-willem De Bleser wrote: > >> I have only one issue. The license says they retain all their IP > >> rights, so is this compatible with the contributor terms of OSM? Or, > >> are we maybe creating a derivative work when we map based on their > >> data? > > > > Every mapper keeps the IP rights over the data he contributed to OSM. > But we > > license our work (with the contributor terms) to the OSM project so they > can > > use our work. That's why they needed everyone's agreement when they > moved to > > ODbL. > > > > If you really want you can always take your own contributed data and > sell it > > for example. You own it so you can do what you want with it. > > That's kind of my point. If we just import the data as-is, then > obviously it's Antwerp who is the IP holder. However, I assume we're > not just going to import the data as is, but rather merge it into the > existing data, check for errors, tag it and such, which I assume would > then make it a derivative work owned by whomever does the integration. > > It's probably best if we just contact them, rather than trying to > guess and second-guess the license here :) > > - Jw > > ___ > Talk-be mailing list > Talk-be@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be > ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] opendata.antwerpen.be
On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 12:27 PM, Ben Laenen wrote: > On Thursday 08 November 2012 23:38:18 Jan-willem De Bleser wrote: >> I have only one issue. The license says they retain all their IP >> rights, so is this compatible with the contributor terms of OSM? Or, >> are we maybe creating a derivative work when we map based on their >> data? > > Every mapper keeps the IP rights over the data he contributed to OSM. But we > license our work (with the contributor terms) to the OSM project so they can > use our work. That's why they needed everyone's agreement when they moved to > ODbL. > > If you really want you can always take your own contributed data and sell it > for example. You own it so you can do what you want with it. That's kind of my point. If we just import the data as-is, then obviously it's Antwerp who is the IP holder. However, I assume we're not just going to import the data as is, but rather merge it into the existing data, check for errors, tag it and such, which I assume would then make it a derivative work owned by whomever does the integration. It's probably best if we just contact them, rather than trying to guess and second-guess the license here :) - Jw ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] opendata.antwerpen.be
On Thursday 08 November 2012 23:38:18 Jan-willem De Bleser wrote: > I have only one issue. The license says they retain all their IP > rights, so is this compatible with the contributor terms of OSM? Or, > are we maybe creating a derivative work when we map based on their > data? Every mapper keeps the IP rights over the data he contributed to OSM. But we license our work (with the contributor terms) to the OSM project so they can use our work. That's why they needed everyone's agreement when they moved to ODbL. If you really want you can always take your own contributed data and sell it for example. You own it so you can do what you want with it. Ben ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] opendata.antwerpen.be
On Sunday 11 November 2012 11:26:59 Jan-willem De Bleser wrote: > Unless that by mapping based on their data, rather than importing > *their* data we instead create a derivative work. There aren't any > restrictions on derivative works, right? Wouldn't importing the data directly into OSM already make a derivative work? Ben ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] opendata.antwerpen.be
On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 11:25 PM, Kurt Roeckx wrote: > > It also says: > "De gebruiker mag deze licentie alleen overdragen aan een derde > partij met de schriftelijke toestemming van de licentiegever" > > It think that basicly prevents us from using it, it basicly says > we can't distribute it to other people without their written > permission. So if we ask them something, we should have it > in writing. And I guess it would make sense to them if we > were an organisation like a vzm/asbl. > > Also note that the license of osm doesn't have the same > requirements as theirs, and users of osm would not be > aware of that. I think this might also create a legal > problem. Unless that by mapping based on their data, rather than importing *their* data we instead create a derivative work. There aren't any restrictions on derivative works, right? ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] opendata.antwerpen.be
On Thu, Nov 08, 2012 at 11:38:18PM +0100, Jan-willem De Bleser wrote: > Another relevant point in the license: > > "De toegekende rechten hebben betrekking op: ... De samenstelling van > collaboratieve databases - Het maken van tijdelijke of permanente, en > geheel of gedeeltelijke reproducties met om het even welk middel en in > om het even welke vorm, met inbegrip van afgeleide databases of als > geheel van collaboratieve databases - Het geheel of gedeeltelijk > verspreiden, mededelen, bekendmaken, verhuren, ter beschikking stellen > of publiek verspreiden van de informatie, met om het even welk middel > en in om het even welke vorm, met inbegrip van afgeleide databases of > als deel aan een collaboratieve database" > > They're talking to us here, I believe. They've obviously foreseen that > groups like OSM and companies like, say, Foursquare, will want to use > this data. > > I have only one issue. The license says they retain all their IP > rights, so is this compatible with the contributor terms of OSM? Or, > are we maybe creating a derivative work when we map based on their > data? It also says: "De gebruiker mag deze licentie alleen overdragen aan een derde partij met de schriftelijke toestemming van de licentiegever" It think that basicly prevents us from using it, it basicly says we can't distribute it to other people without their written permission. So if we ask them something, we should have it in writing. And I guess it would make sense to them if we were an organisation like a vzm/asbl. Also note that the license of osm doesn't have the same requirements as theirs, and users of osm would not be aware of that. I think this might also create a legal problem. Kurt ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] opendata.antwerpen.be
I'm rather optimistic too. Altough I am not at all into the licensing things, I can try and contact the Antwerp administration. I'll contact the people working on the website asking for the direct contact of the people responsible for the licence. On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 7:05 AM, Nicolas Pettiaux wrote: > I have not read the licences and I am rather an optimistic too. > > I think we, the osm community, should take this opportunity to explain > to the Antwerp administration the fifficulties we may run into and the > fact that we *want* to collaborate, and fully respect their IP but at > the same time make sure our work gets into OSM that we trust in the > long term, and which values we like. > > What do you think ? > > Who could / would like to get in touch with the Antwerp administration ? > > Regards, > > Nicolas > -- > Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc - gsm : 0496 24 55 01 - wiki.rmll.be - > wiki.wlsm.be > RMLL - World libre software and culture meeting - WLSM > Soutenez la candidature de Bruxelles, 6 => 11/7/2013. Liste orga sur > http://lc.cx/Zia > Support Brussels as candidate, July 6 to 11, 2013 - Orga list on > http://lc.cx/Zia > Lepacte.be - « promouvoir les libertés numériques en Belgique » - > hetpact.be > > ___ > Talk-be mailing list > Talk-be@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be > -- wannes ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] opendata.antwerpen.be
I have not read the licences and I am rather an optimistic too. I think we, the osm community, should take this opportunity to explain to the Antwerp administration the fifficulties we may run into and the fact that we *want* to collaborate, and fully respect their IP but at the same time make sure our work gets into OSM that we trust in the long term, and which values we like. What do you think ? Who could / would like to get in touch with the Antwerp administration ? Regards, Nicolas -- Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc - gsm : 0496 24 55 01 - wiki.rmll.be - wiki.wlsm.be RMLL - World libre software and culture meeting - WLSM Soutenez la candidature de Bruxelles, 6 => 11/7/2013. Liste orga sur http://lc.cx/Zia Support Brussels as candidate, July 6 to 11, 2013 - Orga list on http://lc.cx/Zia Lepacte.be - « promouvoir les libertés numériques en Belgique » - hetpact.be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] opendata.antwerpen.be
It's normal they keep their IP rights. It means that they still have to right to give the data to selected people under another license (like a license that doesn't require source mentioning). All people do this, also open-source software writers. Apart from that, I agree they are talking to us, and want us to use the data. So even if it's not completely legan (in other words, a lawyer might find a hole), we can use it. And if there are complaints, we can still figure out what to do. Regards, Sander Op 8 november 2012 23:38 schreef Jan-willem De Bleser het volgende: > Another relevant point in the license: > > "De toegekende rechten hebben betrekking op: ... De samenstelling van > collaboratieve databases - Het maken van tijdelijke of permanente, en > geheel of gedeeltelijke reproducties met om het even welk middel en in > om het even welke vorm, met inbegrip van afgeleide databases of als > geheel van collaboratieve databases - Het geheel of gedeeltelijk > verspreiden, mededelen, bekendmaken, verhuren, ter beschikking stellen > of publiek verspreiden van de informatie, met om het even welk middel > en in om het even welke vorm, met inbegrip van afgeleide databases of > als deel aan een collaboratieve database" > > They're talking to us here, I believe. They've obviously foreseen that > groups like OSM and companies like, say, Foursquare, will want to use > this data. > > I have only one issue. The license says they retain all their IP > rights, so is this compatible with the contributor terms of OSM? Or, > are we maybe creating a derivative work when we map based on their > data? > > - Jw > > ___ > Talk-be mailing list > Talk-be@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be > ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] opendata.antwerpen.be
Maybe User A can set up a way to compare what is in the dataset and what is in OSM every once in a while? Jo 2012/11/8 Ben Laenen > On Thursday 08 November 2012 23:21:17 Sander Deryckere wrote: > > I do have some problems with the phrase "De gebruiker verbindt zich ertoe > > de licentiegever op de hoogte te stellen van ontbrekende of onregelmatige > > gegevens die hij in de datasets ontdekt." I wonder if "op de hoogte > > stellen" means notifying or publicating here. It's technically almost > > impossible to notify them, but of course, we always publicate the data, > so > > they can check at all times if something has changed. > > I think sending them an e-mail is sufficient. But that rule is basically > impossible to enforce... > > If user A adds a dataset, and user B (maybe not even aware of the import) > adds > a missing item that was omitted in the dataset, does user B also have the > obligation to notify them? User A won't probably even be aware of it. User > B > isn't aware of a dataset. And what if user B knows fixes an error in the > dataset but doesn't know about the obligation to inform them? And if the > obligation is only there for user A, how does he know someone else changed > something? > > Ben > > ___ > Talk-be mailing list > Talk-be@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be > ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] opendata.antwerpen.be
Another relevant point in the license: "De toegekende rechten hebben betrekking op: ... De samenstelling van collaboratieve databases - Het maken van tijdelijke of permanente, en geheel of gedeeltelijke reproducties met om het even welk middel en in om het even welke vorm, met inbegrip van afgeleide databases of als geheel van collaboratieve databases - Het geheel of gedeeltelijk verspreiden, mededelen, bekendmaken, verhuren, ter beschikking stellen of publiek verspreiden van de informatie, met om het even welk middel en in om het even welke vorm, met inbegrip van afgeleide databases of als deel aan een collaboratieve database" They're talking to us here, I believe. They've obviously foreseen that groups like OSM and companies like, say, Foursquare, will want to use this data. I have only one issue. The license says they retain all their IP rights, so is this compatible with the contributor terms of OSM? Or, are we maybe creating a derivative work when we map based on their data? - Jw ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] opendata.antwerpen.be
I'm an optimist, not a lawyer, so I read that they explicitly allow that the data gets added to a collaborative database. In another paragraph it says we are not allowed to transfer that license to somebody else, but since everybody can use the data on the same terms, there would never be a need to transfer the license. They do ask the source is mentioned and they want to get feedback if we find errors in their dataset. I wish the data of De Lijn, MIVB/STIB and TEC would one day become available under such a license! Jo 2012/11/8 wannes > The city of Antwerp is opening some data it has (boundaries, playgrounds, > ...) in order to have some smartphone-apps developed. > > Can we (and may we!) use some of the datasets? > > http://opendata.antwerpen.be/datasets > http://opendata.antwerpen.be/licentie > > I'm not good at reading licences, so I'd rather ask here before importing > things. > > -- > wannes > > ___ > Talk-be mailing list > Talk-be@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be > > ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] opendata.antwerpen.be
On Thursday 08 November 2012 23:21:17 Sander Deryckere wrote: > I do have some problems with the phrase "De gebruiker verbindt zich ertoe > de licentiegever op de hoogte te stellen van ontbrekende of onregelmatige > gegevens die hij in de datasets ontdekt." I wonder if "op de hoogte > stellen" means notifying or publicating here. It's technically almost > impossible to notify them, but of course, we always publicate the data, so > they can check at all times if something has changed. I think sending them an e-mail is sufficient. But that rule is basically impossible to enforce... If user A adds a dataset, and user B (maybe not even aware of the import) adds a missing item that was omitted in the dataset, does user B also have the obligation to notify them? User A won't probably even be aware of it. User B isn't aware of a dataset. And what if user B knows fixes an error in the dataset but doesn't know about the obligation to inform them? And if the obligation is only there for user A, how does he know someone else changed something? Ben ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] opendata.antwerpen.be
Every user of OpenStreetMap should link to the copyright: http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright In the copyright, there's a link to the OSM contributors: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors If that list contains the opendata project from Antwerp, it's OK. As the sources are linked quite directly, even if data users filter out the source tags (which is not forbidden). A source tag can be useful to distinguish what features come from the project. But it isn't needed. I do have some problems with the phrase "De gebruiker verbindt zich ertoe de licentiegever op de hoogte te stellen van ontbrekende of onregelmatige gegevens die hij in de datasets ontdekt." I wonder if "op de hoogte stellen" means notifying or publicating here. It's technically almost impossible to notify them, but of course, we always publicate the data, so they can check at all times if something has changed. Regards, Sander 2012/11/8 Ben Laenen > On Thursday 08 November 2012 22:05:35 wannes wrote: > > The city of Antwerp is opening some data it has (boundaries, playgrounds, > > ...) in order to have some smartphone-apps developed. > > > > Can we (and may we!) use some of the datasets? > > > > http://opendata.antwerpen.be/datasets > > http://opendata.antwerpen.be/licentie > > > > I'm not good at reading licences, so I'd rather ask here before importing > > things. > > I guess it will all boil down to: > > "De gebruiker verbindt zich ertoe om bronvermelding te voorzien bij elk > hergebruik van de dataset, alsmede de vermelding dat de dataset wordt > hergebruikt met toestemming van de licentiegever." > > and the question whether adding a source=* tag would be sufficient... > Derivatives of OSM won't ever show this attribution. > > Maybe someone can ask them? > > btw, there's also a similar Belgian project: http://data.gov.be > > Ben > > ___ > Talk-be mailing list > Talk-be@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be > ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] opendata.antwerpen.be
On Thursday 08 November 2012 22:05:35 wannes wrote: > The city of Antwerp is opening some data it has (boundaries, playgrounds, > ...) in order to have some smartphone-apps developed. > > Can we (and may we!) use some of the datasets? > > http://opendata.antwerpen.be/datasets > http://opendata.antwerpen.be/licentie > > I'm not good at reading licences, so I'd rather ask here before importing > things. I guess it will all boil down to: "De gebruiker verbindt zich ertoe om bronvermelding te voorzien bij elk hergebruik van de dataset, alsmede de vermelding dat de dataset wordt hergebruikt met toestemming van de licentiegever." and the question whether adding a source=* tag would be sufficient... Derivatives of OSM won't ever show this attribution. Maybe someone can ask them? btw, there's also a similar Belgian project: http://data.gov.be Ben ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
