Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

2020-12-01 Thread Jeremy Harris 

On 01/12/2020 09:32, Ken Kilfedder wrote:

1.  Is there an overpass syntax that would let me download (to JOSM) - all ways 
with addr:housenumber added or changed via a changeset with a certain source 
tag?  (and not updated by something else later)
2. Could I then wipe all such addr:housenumbers and re-upload?
3. Could I keep a JOSM session file around to reupload the addr:housenumbers 
once the scanner's copyright has elapsed?



I got as far as this, which will display the recent stuff
I did (you'll need to change the "user" value to yourself) :-

https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/10JY

Obviously this is only a minor step in the above...
--
Cheers,
  Jeremy

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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

2020-12-01 Thread Russ Garrett 
On Tue, 1 Dec 2020 at 10:53, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)
 wrote:
> Looking at https://maps.nls.uk/copyright.html#exceptions am I right in
> thinking that the non-commercial contract restriction also applies to
> some other NLS layers (e.g. OS 1:25k and 7th series scans) which have
> been available (and being used) in popular OSM editors for some time
> now? Do we have some specific permission to use those layers, and if
> so does that permission apply to the new house number layer as well?

The wiki appears to imply that specific permission has been granted in
some cases, although the wording is a bit vague and could probably do
with being clarified:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/National_Library_of_Scotland

-- 
Russ Garrett
r...@garrett.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

2020-12-01 Thread Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) 
On Tue, 1 Dec 2020 at 09:53, Ken Kilfedder  wrote:
> IpswichMapper forwarded me this note, apparently received from NLS via an 
> enquiry made by Rob-from-OSMF:
>
> > “I wish I could give you better news on the 1940s OS maps of south-east 
> > England.
> > Unfortunately, you’re right, they were scanned by a third-party commercial 
> > company
> > who have placed commercial re-use restrictions on this layer – there are 
> > further
> > details under our Copyright Exceptions list at
> > https://maps.nls.uk/copyright.html#exceptions. These restrictions will last 
> > for
> > another couple of years – until the end of 2022 – which I know might seem a 
> > long
> > way off, but hopefully will pass quickly. Then we’ll be happily able to 
> > share
> > them with the OSM community, along with the rest of England and Wales
> > National Grid 1940s-1960s mapping, that will be of interest too.”

Looking at https://maps.nls.uk/copyright.html#exceptions am I right in
thinking that the non-commercial contract restriction also applies to
some other NLS layers (e.g. OS 1:25k and 7th series scans) which have
been available (and being used) in popular OSM editors for some time
now? Do we have some specific permission to use those layers, and if
so does that permission apply to the new house number layer as well?

Robert.

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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

2020-12-01 Thread David Woolley 

On 01/12/2020 10:11, Tom Hughes via Talk-GB wrote:

Of course it's only claiming they do have a copyright that they
can make such a license necessary.


Not necessarily.  If you can establish a contract at every stage in the 
chain, you may be able to impose restrictions that go beyond copyright.


More interesting here is whether it is actually copyright or database 
rights that are at stake.  I think scanning only creates a new copyright 
on the typographical arrangement, and doesn't affect the database 
rights.  However, because there may be contractual restrictions, and 
because it might put OS into a bad position with their supplier, I would 
suggest that one obeys the restrictions that OS are imposing.



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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

2020-12-01 Thread Tom Hughes via Talk-GB 

So that can't possibly be when the copyright expires, rather it's
a question of contractual provisions in a license agreement between
them and NLS not copyright as such.

Of course it's only claiming they do have a copyright that they
can make such a license necessary.

Tom

On 01/12/2020 09:49, Ken Kilfedder wrote:

Hi Tom,

IpswichMapper forwarded me this note, apparently received from NLS via an 
enquiry made by Rob-from-OSMF:


“I wish I could give you better news on the 1940s OS maps of south-east England.
Unfortunately, you’re right, they were scanned by a third-party commercial 
company
who have placed commercial re-use restrictions on this layer – there are further
details under our Copyright Exceptions list at
https://maps.nls.uk/copyright.html#exceptions. These restrictions will last for
another couple of years – until the end of 2022 – which I know might seem a long
way off, but hopefully will pass quickly. Then we’ll be happily able to share
them with the OSM community, along with the rest of England and Wales
National Grid 1940s-1960s mapping, that will be of interest too.”




---
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On Tue, 1 Dec 2020, at 9:41 AM, Tom Hughes wrote:

If we assume that a new copyright is created by the scanning (which is
a complicated question) then there is no way it expires next year.

What exactly do you think the term is for this copyright and when do
you think it starts from?

I don't think it's relevant anyway as I thought NLS had given us
permission to use their scans?

Tom

On 01/12/2020 09:32, Ken Kilfedder wrote:

SO,

It turns out - we cannot use these images until the scanner's copyright expires 
at the end of next year.  Happily, it seems like there will be GB-wide coverage 
available at that point, not just the London-Southend-Brighton area.

However, I have been happily using these images for a bit less than a year now, 
so I'm looking for advice on How to redact. I've tagged all the relevant 
changesets with the name of the TMS, so it should be possible.

1.  Is there an overpass syntax that would let me download (to JOSM) - all ways 
with addr:housenumber added or changed via a changeset with a certain source 
tag?  (and not updated by something else later)
2. Could I then wipe all such addr:housenumbers and re-upload?
3. Could I keep a JOSM session file around to reupload the addr:housenumbers 
once the scanner's copyright has elapsed?



This has come to light thanks to IpswitchMapper's tireless efforts to set up a 
tasking manager for adding housenumber, and thank to Rob-from-OSMF's 
communications with NLS.

---
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spiregrain_...@ksglp.org.uk

On Mon, 16 Nov 2020, at 10:55 AM, Ken Kilfedder wrote:

Hi Mark,

If there is absolute confidence in that, can it be added to the wiki page here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/National_Library_of_Scotland

And can it be added to the default set of old maps in JOSM?

If it is available for use, not point in keeping it a secret.

---
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spiregrain_...@ksglp.org.uk

On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, at 6:47 PM, Mark Goodge wrote:



On 30/10/2020 18:37, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB wrote:




Oct 30, 2020, 16:28 by talk-gb@openstreetmap.org:

  It has come to my attention that the "Town Plan" map from 1944-1967
  in NLS is available freely.

What are its licensing terms?

"available freely" does not mean "compatible with OSM license"


It's out of copyright, so there aren't any licensing issues in deriving
data from it.

I would, though, be a little reluctant to use it as a basis for
wholesale numbering without any supporting local knowledge or survey.
House numbers can, and sometimes do, change, particularly when streets
are renamed or rebuilt. So you can't be 100% certain that a house number
in the 1950s is the same number it is now, even if the building is still
the same.

Mark

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--
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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

2020-12-01 Thread Stephen Colebourne 
As a side note to the legal aspect, the house numbers can be horribly
inaccurate. I compared Oxted to a ground survey, and the old map
simply numbered the houses consecutively, which isn't reality on the
ground. One possible explanation is that brand new estates (1940s)
were done this way, as the final house number hadn't yet been chosen.
Anyway, be careful when trusting these maps.

Stephen


On Tue, 1 Dec 2020 at 09:33, Ken Kilfedder  wrote:
>
> SO,
>
> It turns out - we cannot use these images until the scanner's copyright 
> expires at the end of next year.  Happily, it seems like there will be 
> GB-wide coverage available at that point, not just the 
> London-Southend-Brighton area.
>
> However, I have been happily using these images for a bit less than a year 
> now, so I'm looking for advice on How to redact. I've tagged all the relevant 
> changesets with the name of the TMS, so it should be possible.
>
> 1.  Is there an overpass syntax that would let me download (to JOSM) - all 
> ways with addr:housenumber added or changed via a changeset with a certain 
> source tag?  (and not updated by something else later)
> 2. Could I then wipe all such addr:housenumbers and re-upload?
> 3. Could I keep a JOSM session file around to reupload the addr:housenumbers 
> once the scanner's copyright has elapsed?
>
>
>
> This has come to light thanks to IpswitchMapper's tireless efforts to set up 
> a tasking manager for adding housenumber, and thank to Rob-from-OSMF's 
> communications with NLS.
>
> ---
> https://hdyc.neis-one.org/?spiregrain
> spiregrain_...@ksglp.org.uk
>
> On Mon, 16 Nov 2020, at 10:55 AM, Ken Kilfedder wrote:
> > Hi Mark,
> >
> > If there is absolute confidence in that, can it be added to the wiki page 
> > here:
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/National_Library_of_Scotland
> >
> > And can it be added to the default set of old maps in JOSM?
> >
> > If it is available for use, not point in keeping it a secret.
> >
> > ---
> > https://hdyc.neis-one.org/?spiregrain
> > spiregrain_...@ksglp.org.uk
> >
> > On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, at 6:47 PM, Mark Goodge wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On 30/10/2020 18:37, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Oct 30, 2020, 16:28 by talk-gb@openstreetmap.org:
> > > >
> > > > It has come to my attention that the "Town Plan" map from 1944-1967
> > > > in NLS is available freely.
> > > >
> > > > What are its licensing terms?
> > > >
> > > > "available freely" does not mean "compatible with OSM license"
> > >
> > > It's out of copyright, so there aren't any licensing issues in deriving
> > > data from it.
> > >
> > > I would, though, be a little reluctant to use it as a basis for
> > > wholesale numbering without any supporting local knowledge or survey.
> > > House numbers can, and sometimes do, change, particularly when streets
> > > are renamed or rebuilt. So you can't be 100% certain that a house number
> > > in the 1950s is the same number it is now, even if the building is still
> > > the same.
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Talk-GB mailing list
> > > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> > >
> >
> > ___
> > Talk-GB mailing list
> > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> >
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

2020-12-01 Thread Ken Kilfedder 
Hi Tom,

IpswichMapper forwarded me this note, apparently received from NLS via an 
enquiry made by Rob-from-OSMF:

> “I wish I could give you better news on the 1940s OS maps of south-east 
> England. 
> Unfortunately, you’re right, they were scanned by a third-party commercial 
> company 
> who have placed commercial re-use restrictions on this layer – there are 
> further 
> details under our Copyright Exceptions list at 
> https://maps.nls.uk/copyright.html#exceptions. These restrictions will last 
> for 
> another couple of years – until the end of 2022 – which I know might seem a 
> long 
> way off, but hopefully will pass quickly. Then we’ll be happily able to share 
> them with the OSM community, along with the rest of England and Wales 
> National Grid 1940s-1960s mapping, that will be of interest too.”



---
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spiregrain_...@ksglp.org.uk

On Tue, 1 Dec 2020, at 9:41 AM, Tom Hughes wrote:
> If we assume that a new copyright is created by the scanning (which is
> a complicated question) then there is no way it expires next year.
> 
> What exactly do you think the term is for this copyright and when do
> you think it starts from?
> 
> I don't think it's relevant anyway as I thought NLS had given us
> permission to use their scans?
> 
> Tom
> 
> On 01/12/2020 09:32, Ken Kilfedder wrote:
> > SO,
> > 
> > It turns out - we cannot use these images until the scanner's copyright 
> > expires at the end of next year.  Happily, it seems like there will be 
> > GB-wide coverage available at that point, not just the 
> > London-Southend-Brighton area.
> > 
> > However, I have been happily using these images for a bit less than a year 
> > now, so I'm looking for advice on How to redact. I've tagged all the 
> > relevant changesets with the name of the TMS, so it should be possible.
> > 
> > 1.  Is there an overpass syntax that would let me download (to JOSM) - all 
> > ways with addr:housenumber added or changed via a changeset with a certain 
> > source tag?  (and not updated by something else later)
> > 2. Could I then wipe all such addr:housenumbers and re-upload?
> > 3. Could I keep a JOSM session file around to reupload the 
> > addr:housenumbers once the scanner's copyright has elapsed?
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > This has come to light thanks to IpswitchMapper's tireless efforts to set 
> > up a tasking manager for adding housenumber, and thank to Rob-from-OSMF's 
> > communications with NLS.
> > 
> > ---
> > https://hdyc.neis-one.org/?spiregrain
> > spiregrain_...@ksglp.org.uk
> > 
> > On Mon, 16 Nov 2020, at 10:55 AM, Ken Kilfedder wrote:
> >> Hi Mark,
> >>
> >> If there is absolute confidence in that, can it be added to the wiki page 
> >> here:
> >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/National_Library_of_Scotland
> >>
> >> And can it be added to the default set of old maps in JOSM?
> >>
> >> If it is available for use, not point in keeping it a secret.
> >>
> >> ---
> >> https://hdyc.neis-one.org/?spiregrain
> >> spiregrain_...@ksglp.org.uk
> >>
> >> On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, at 6:47 PM, Mark Goodge wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 30/10/2020 18:37, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>  Oct 30, 2020, 16:28 by talk-gb@openstreetmap.org:
> 
>   It has come to my attention that the "Town Plan" map from 1944-1967
>   in NLS is available freely.
> 
>  What are its licensing terms?
> 
>  "available freely" does not mean "compatible with OSM license"
> >>>
> >>> It's out of copyright, so there aren't any licensing issues in deriving
> >>> data from it.
> >>>
> >>> I would, though, be a little reluctant to use it as a basis for
> >>> wholesale numbering without any supporting local knowledge or survey.
> >>> House numbers can, and sometimes do, change, particularly when streets
> >>> are renamed or rebuilt. So you can't be 100% certain that a house number
> >>> in the 1950s is the same number it is now, even if the building is still
> >>> the same.
> >>>
> >>> Mark
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> Talk-GB mailing list
> >>> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> >>>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Talk-GB mailing list
> >> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> >>
> > 
> > ___
> > Talk-GB mailing list
> > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> > 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
> http://compton.nu/
>

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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

2020-12-01 Thread Tom Hughes via Talk-GB 

If we assume that a new copyright is created by the scanning (which is
a complicated question) then there is no way it expires next year.

What exactly do you think the term is for this copyright and when do
you think it starts from?

I don't think it's relevant anyway as I thought NLS had given us
permission to use their scans?

Tom

On 01/12/2020 09:32, Ken Kilfedder wrote:

SO,

It turns out - we cannot use these images until the scanner's copyright expires 
at the end of next year.  Happily, it seems like there will be GB-wide coverage 
available at that point, not just the London-Southend-Brighton area.

However, I have been happily using these images for a bit less than a year now, 
so I'm looking for advice on How to redact. I've tagged all the relevant 
changesets with the name of the TMS, so it should be possible.

1.  Is there an overpass syntax that would let me download (to JOSM) - all ways 
with addr:housenumber added or changed via a changeset with a certain source 
tag?  (and not updated by something else later)
2. Could I then wipe all such addr:housenumbers and re-upload?
3. Could I keep a JOSM session file around to reupload the addr:housenumbers 
once the scanner's copyright has elapsed?



This has come to light thanks to IpswitchMapper's tireless efforts to set up a 
tasking manager for adding housenumber, and thank to Rob-from-OSMF's 
communications with NLS.

---
https://hdyc.neis-one.org/?spiregrain
spiregrain_...@ksglp.org.uk

On Mon, 16 Nov 2020, at 10:55 AM, Ken Kilfedder wrote:

Hi Mark,

If there is absolute confidence in that, can it be added to the wiki page here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/National_Library_of_Scotland

And can it be added to the default set of old maps in JOSM?

If it is available for use, not point in keeping it a secret.

---
https://hdyc.neis-one.org/?spiregrain
spiregrain_...@ksglp.org.uk

On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, at 6:47 PM, Mark Goodge wrote:



On 30/10/2020 18:37, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB wrote:




Oct 30, 2020, 16:28 by talk-gb@openstreetmap.org:

 It has come to my attention that the "Town Plan" map from 1944-1967
 in NLS is available freely.

What are its licensing terms?

"available freely" does not mean "compatible with OSM license"


It's out of copyright, so there aren't any licensing issues in deriving
data from it.

I would, though, be a little reluctant to use it as a basis for
wholesale numbering without any supporting local knowledge or survey.
House numbers can, and sometimes do, change, particularly when streets
are renamed or rebuilt. So you can't be 100% certain that a house number
in the 1950s is the same number it is now, even if the building is still
the same.

Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

2020-12-01 Thread Ken Kilfedder 
SO,

It turns out - we cannot use these images until the scanner's copyright expires 
at the end of next year.  Happily, it seems like there will be GB-wide coverage 
available at that point, not just the London-Southend-Brighton area.

However, I have been happily using these images for a bit less than a year now, 
so I'm looking for advice on How to redact. I've tagged all the relevant 
changesets with the name of the TMS, so it should be possible.

1.  Is there an overpass syntax that would let me download (to JOSM) - all ways 
with addr:housenumber added or changed via a changeset with a certain source 
tag?  (and not updated by something else later)
2. Could I then wipe all such addr:housenumbers and re-upload?
3. Could I keep a JOSM session file around to reupload the addr:housenumbers 
once the scanner's copyright has elapsed?



This has come to light thanks to IpswitchMapper's tireless efforts to set up a 
tasking manager for adding housenumber, and thank to Rob-from-OSMF's 
communications with NLS.

---
https://hdyc.neis-one.org/?spiregrain
spiregrain_...@ksglp.org.uk

On Mon, 16 Nov 2020, at 10:55 AM, Ken Kilfedder wrote:
> Hi Mark,
> 
> If there is absolute confidence in that, can it be added to the wiki page 
> here:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/National_Library_of_Scotland
> 
> And can it be added to the default set of old maps in JOSM?
> 
> If it is available for use, not point in keeping it a secret.
> 
> ---
> https://hdyc.neis-one.org/?spiregrain
> spiregrain_...@ksglp.org.uk
> 
> On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, at 6:47 PM, Mark Goodge wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > On 30/10/2020 18:37, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Oct 30, 2020, 16:28 by talk-gb@openstreetmap.org:
> > > 
> > > It has come to my attention that the "Town Plan" map from 1944-1967
> > > in NLS is available freely.
> > > 
> > > What are its licensing terms?
> > > 
> > > "available freely" does not mean "compatible with OSM license"
> > 
> > It's out of copyright, so there aren't any licensing issues in deriving 
> > data from it.
> > 
> > I would, though, be a little reluctant to use it as a basis for 
> > wholesale numbering without any supporting local knowledge or survey. 
> > House numbers can, and sometimes do, change, particularly when streets 
> > are renamed or rebuilt. So you can't be 100% certain that a house number 
> > in the 1950s is the same number it is now, even if the building is still 
> > the same.
> > 
> > Mark
> > 
> > ___
> > Talk-GB mailing list
> > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> >
> 
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>

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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

2020-11-16 Thread Ken Kilfedder 
Hi Mark,

If there is absolute confidence in that, can it be added to the wiki page here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/National_Library_of_Scotland

And can it be added to the default set of old maps in JOSM?

If it is available for use, not point in keeping it a secret.

---
https://hdyc.neis-one.org/?spiregrain
spiregrain_...@ksglp.org.uk

On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, at 6:47 PM, Mark Goodge wrote:
> 
> 
> On 30/10/2020 18:37, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Oct 30, 2020, 16:28 by talk-gb@openstreetmap.org:
> > 
> > It has come to my attention that the "Town Plan" map from 1944-1967
> > in NLS is available freely.
> > 
> > What are its licensing terms?
> > 
> > "available freely" does not mean "compatible with OSM license"
> 
> It's out of copyright, so there aren't any licensing issues in deriving 
> data from it.
> 
> I would, though, be a little reluctant to use it as a basis for 
> wholesale numbering without any supporting local knowledge or survey. 
> House numbers can, and sometimes do, change, particularly when streets 
> are renamed or rebuilt. So you can't be 100% certain that a house number 
> in the 1950s is the same number it is now, even if the building is still 
> the same.
> 
> Mark
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

2020-10-30 Thread ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB 
Oh yes, private streets are always a problem. In fact, I feel uncomfortable 
even walking down  dead end roads to survey, and so I avoid them. Usually I 
just record the first number, then guess the rest of the numbers on dead end 
streets.

NLS definately would be better.

That being said, who should be contacted to create a tasking manager for this?
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30 Oct 2020, 22:09 by scolebou...@joda.org:

> Having surveyed thousands of addresses in SW London, I've done a quick
> compare and it looks pretty good to me. Sure there are the odd case
> here and there where buildings have changed, but for the many parts of
> London with Victorian to 1930s housing stock, this will be mostly
> accurate. Just comparing the general order from low to high odds/evens
> is useful. Plus for hard to access private streets its great. As a
> warning though, it does not align perfectly with the Bing offset I'm
> using.
>
> Is there anyone with "authority" that can state this is OK to use, and
> what source tag to use?
>
> Stephen
>
>
> On Fri, 30 Oct 2020 at 18:48, Mark Goodge  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 30/10/2020 18:37, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Oct 30, 2020, 16:28 by talk-gb@openstreetmap.org:
>> >
>> > It has come to my attention that the "Town Plan" map from 1944-1967
>> > in NLS is available freely.
>> >
>> > What are its licensing terms?
>> >
>> > "available freely" does not mean "compatible with OSM license"
>>
>> It's out of copyright, so there aren't any licensing issues in deriving
>> data from it.
>>
>> I would, though, be a little reluctant to use it as a basis for
>> wholesale numbering without any supporting local knowledge or survey.
>> House numbers can, and sometimes do, change, particularly when streets
>> are renamed or rebuilt. So you can't be 100% certain that a house number
>> in the 1950s is the same number it is now, even if the building is still
>> the same.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
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>
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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

2020-10-30 Thread Stephen Colebourne 
Having surveyed thousands of addresses in SW London, I've done a quick
compare and it looks pretty good to me. Sure there are the odd case
here and there where buildings have changed, but for the many parts of
London with Victorian to 1930s housing stock, this will be mostly
accurate. Just comparing the general order from low to high odds/evens
is useful. Plus for hard to access private streets its great. As a
warning though, it does not align perfectly with the Bing offset I'm
using.

Is there anyone with "authority" that can state this is OK to use, and
what source tag to use?

Stephen


On Fri, 30 Oct 2020 at 18:48, Mark Goodge  wrote:
>
>
>
> On 30/10/2020 18:37, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Oct 30, 2020, 16:28 by talk-gb@openstreetmap.org:
> >
> > It has come to my attention that the "Town Plan" map from 1944-1967
> > in NLS is available freely.
> >
> > What are its licensing terms?
> >
> > "available freely" does not mean "compatible with OSM license"
>
> It's out of copyright, so there aren't any licensing issues in deriving
> data from it.
>
> I would, though, be a little reluctant to use it as a basis for
> wholesale numbering without any supporting local knowledge or survey.
> House numbers can, and sometimes do, change, particularly when streets
> are renamed or rebuilt. So you can't be 100% certain that a house number
> in the 1950s is the same number it is now, even if the building is still
> the same.
>
> Mark
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

2020-10-30 Thread ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB 
How do you reply to an email that wasn't sent to your inbox and still keep the 
thread structure?
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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

2020-10-30 Thread Mark Goodge 



On 30/10/2020 20:10, ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB wrote:

Also, the messages by "Mark Goodge" and "Ken Kilfedder" (spiregrain) 
didn't show up in my email. Why is this? (Is it because their "reply 
all" didn't include my address by mistake?) I'm still getting used to 
mailing lists.


I didn't do a "reply all". I did a "reply list". That's how lists are 
supposed to work! You'll see my reply as part of the normal list 
traffic, not as a direct reply to you.


The https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/ website sorts the mails 
into "threads". How does it which email goes under which thread? 
Currently, when I hit "reply all" it shows in the archive my email 
underneath the right thread. I am assuming it know based on who I sent 
the email to. However, if the same person were to reply twice to my 
email, and then I replied to one of their emails, how would the 
archiving system know which email I replied to?


The archives will include anything that has the address 
'talk-gb@openstreetmap.org' in the To or CC lines (not sure about Bcc, 
and I can't be bothered to check!). But all list messages should, as a 
general rule, be replied to on-list - that is, by sending your reply to 
the list address, not the address of the sender. You should only reply 
directly to the sender if you need to contact them off-list.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

2020-10-30 Thread ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB 
Ok, it seems like this one didn't show up under the right thread. I moved the 
talk-gb@openstreetmap.org to the CC section and emailed m...@good-stuff.co.uk 
directly, but it didn't show up under that thread. The way I originally did it 
is by clicking on the email in the archive, which loads a mailto link, however 
it only loads talk-gb@openstreetmap.org . How do you respond to threads that 
you haven't been emailed properly?

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30 Oct 2020, 20:17 by ipswichmap...@tutanota.com:

> This is why I think that a tasking manager is good. Firstly, it is not 
> exactly "wholesale" in the sense that a lot of data with little checking. 
> Every square is mapped and then validated as well. 
>
> Secondly, this is why it is imperative to check if the buildings still exist 
> on Bing. If they do, almost certainly the housenumbers haven't changed. (As 
> mentioned by spiregrain). If the buildings have changed, then you can mark a 
> square as "bad imagery", making the tasking manager even more useful (so that 
> you can discern where the imagery is accurate and where it isn't).
>
> 
>
> Mark wrote:
>
> It's out of copyright, so there aren't any licensing issues in deriving data 
> from it.I would, though, be a little reluctant to use it as a basis for 
> wholesale numbering without any supporting local knowledge or survey. House 
> numbers can, and sometimes do, change, particularly when streets are renamed 
> or rebuilt. So you can't be 100% certain that a house number in the 1950s is 
> the same number it is now, even if the building is still the same.
>
> Mark 
>

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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

2020-10-30 Thread ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB 
This is why I think that a tasking manager is good. Firstly, it is not exactly 
"wholesale" in the sense that a lot of data with little checking. Every square 
is mapped and then validated as well. 

Secondly, this is why it is imperative to check if the buildings still exist on 
Bing. If they do, almost certainly the housenumbers haven't changed. (As 
mentioned by spiregrain). If the buildings have changed, then you can mark a 
square as "bad imagery", making the tasking manager even more useful (so that 
you can discern where the imagery is accurate and where it isn't).



Mark wrote:

It's out of copyright, so there aren't any licensing issues in deriving data 
from it.I would, though, be a little reluctant to use it as a basis for 
wholesale numbering without any supporting local knowledge or survey. House 
numbers can, and sometimes do, change, particularly when streets are renamed or 
rebuilt. So you can't be 100% certain that a house number in the 1950s is the 
same number it is now, even if the building is still the same.

Mark
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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

2020-10-30 Thread ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB 
I have already posted this on reddit, and people brought up this issue there 
too:

https://old.reddit.com/r/openstreetmap/comments/jk8gdr/high_quality_imagery_of_buildings_and/gahyzi
 


Also, the messages by "Mark Goodge" and "Ken Kilfedder" (spiregrain) didn't 
show up in my email. Why is this? (Is it because their "reply all" didn't 
include my address by mistake?) I'm still getting used to mailing lists.

The https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/ website sorts the mails into 
"threads". How does it which email goes under which thread? Currently, when I 
hit "reply all" it shows in the archive my email underneath the right thread. I 
am assuming it know based on who I sent the email to. However, if the same 
person were to reply twice to my email, and then I replied to one of their 
emails, how would the archiving system know which email I replied to?

30 Oct 2020, 18:37 by matkoni...@tutanota.com:

>
>
>
> Oct 30, 2020, 16:28 by > talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> :
>
>> It has come to my attention that the "Town Plan" map from 1944-1967 in NLS 
>> is available freely.
>>
> What are its licensing terms?
>
> "available freely" does not mean "compatible with OSM license"
>
>

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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

2020-10-30 Thread ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB 
Sorry, I think my last message didn't get through because I didn't "reply all". 
(So it didn't show up in the archives). I'm still getting using to this 
"mailing lists" system.

Here is the NLS map:

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=6=55.25673=-5.29584=170=1
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30 Oct 2020, 15:47 by davefoxfa...@btinternet.com:

>
>
> On 30/10/2020 15:28, ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>> It has come to my attention that the "Town Plan" map from 1944-1967 in NLS 
>> is available freely.
>>
>
> Link to this on NLS?
>
> DaveF
>

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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

2020-10-30 Thread Ken Kilfedder 
I've made extensive use of these tiles for numbering tasks in London E15 and 
E7.  But you are right that more up to date material is needed.  Bing gives me 
the more modern building outlines,  and I then do some spot checks of the 
NLS-sourced housenumbers when I survey the newer buildings.

But I don't recall any instances where NLS was 'wrong' for buildings that are 
still standing.  Maybe the odd 45 vs 45a etc.

---
https://hdyc.neis-one.org/?spiregrain
spiregrain_...@ksglp.org.uk

On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, at 6:47 PM, Mark Goodge wrote:
> 
> 
> On 30/10/2020 18:37, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Oct 30, 2020, 16:28 by talk-gb@openstreetmap.org:
> > 
> > It has come to my attention that the "Town Plan" map from 1944-1967
> > in NLS is available freely.
> > 
> > What are its licensing terms?
> > 
> > "available freely" does not mean "compatible with OSM license"
> 
> It's out of copyright, so there aren't any licensing issues in deriving 
> data from it.
> 
> I would, though, be a little reluctant to use it as a basis for 
> wholesale numbering without any supporting local knowledge or survey. 
> House numbers can, and sometimes do, change, particularly when streets 
> are renamed or rebuilt. So you can't be 100% certain that a house number 
> in the 1950s is the same number it is now, even if the building is still 
> the same.
> 
> Mark
> 
> ___
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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

2020-10-30 Thread Mark Goodge 



On 30/10/2020 18:37, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB wrote:




Oct 30, 2020, 16:28 by talk-gb@openstreetmap.org:

It has come to my attention that the "Town Plan" map from 1944-1967
in NLS is available freely.

What are its licensing terms?

"available freely" does not mean "compatible with OSM license"


It's out of copyright, so there aren't any licensing issues in deriving 
data from it.


I would, though, be a little reluctant to use it as a basis for 
wholesale numbering without any supporting local knowledge or survey. 
House numbers can, and sometimes do, change, particularly when streets 
are renamed or rebuilt. So you can't be 100% certain that a house number 
in the 1950s is the same number it is now, even if the building is still 
the same.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

2020-10-30 Thread Russ Garrett 
On Fri, 30 Oct 2020 at 18:38, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB
 wrote:
> What are its licensing terms?
>
> "available freely" does not mean "compatible with OSM license"

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/National_Library_of_Scotland

NLS maps (except for the ones where the copyright of the scans lies
with other parties, which does not seem to be the case in this
instance) are acceptable for use in OSM.

-- 
Russ Garrett
r...@garrett.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

2020-10-30 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB 



Oct 30, 2020, 16:28 by talk-gb@openstreetmap.org:

> It has come to my attention that the "Town Plan" map from 1944-1967 in NLS is 
> available freely.
>
What are its licensing terms?

"available freely" does not mean "compatible with OSM license"

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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

2020-10-30 Thread Russ Garrett 
On Fri, 30 Oct 2020 at 15:49, Dave F via Talk-GB
 wrote:
> Link to this on NLS?

I think it's the "OS 1:1,250/1:2500 1944-1969" layer:
https://maps.nls.uk/os/national-grid/

-- 
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r...@garrett.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

2020-10-30 Thread Dave F via Talk-GB 



On 30/10/2020 15:28, ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB wrote:

Hello,
It has come to my attention that the "Town Plan" map from 1944-1967 in 
NLS is available freely.


Link to this on NLS?

DaveF

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[Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

2020-10-30 Thread ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB 
Hello,

As anyone mapping in the UK knows, in most areas housenumber coverage is 
abysmal. For example, germany has 14 million housenumbers, USA has 10 million 
and the UK has about 1.6 million as of 2018.[1]


Therefore, an open data source of housenumbers would make it significantly 
easier to add housenumbers. The only other method is surveys, which is slow and 
tedious and can only really be done over a small area. The UK government refuse 
to make this commercial[1][2] data available openly.

It has come to my attention that the "Town Plan" map from 1944-1967 in NLS is 
available freely.

Here is the tms if you want to test it in JOSM:

tms:https://geo.nls.uk/mapdata3/os/ldn_tile/{zoom}/{x}/{y}.png

This is just the tms for london and south east england, I do not know the TMS 
for the Scotland map.

This imagery extends to Brighton and Southend, although it does not provide 
housenumbers in those areas, only buildings. (However, for some reason 
housenumbers are present in the districts west of Brighton, e.g Worthing).

Due to it being an old map, lots of construction and destruction has taken 
place since then, so in some areas of London, this map will not be useful. 
However, many buildings have remained the same since then, and if that case 
this map provides a far, far quicker way of mapping housenumbers compared to 
going out and surveying them yourself.

If you want to see an example of this imagery being used, "Stratford New Town" 
in London used this imagery to map housenumbers.[1] Housenumbers in Edinburgh 
were also mapped using this NLS imagery.[2][3]

This should be very useful to many London mappers, and it would be great if 
people would start entering this data right away. 

However, I think the best way of getting all this data into OSM is by using a 
tasking manager. 

As of current, I don't think there is a UK tasking manager, I think it is worth 
it create one just for this task. 

The other advantage of a tasking manager is that you can mark "bad imagery", in 
other words, you can mark tiles where construction has taken place, making the 
map useless. This will make it more efficient to co-operate.

If OSM UK can be contacted about implementing a tasking manager for this, that 
would be great.

If this can be pulled off properly (tasking manager, outreach etc.), that would 
mean housenumbers in most of London!! This would genuinely be incredible.

Thanks,
IpswichMapper

[1]: 
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/business-government/products/points-of-interest
[2]: 
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/business-government/products/addressbase-premium
[3]: https://qa.poole.ch/addresses/
[4]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1341723829#map=13/51.5507/0.0030
[5]: 
https://www.ed.ac.uk/history-classics-archaeology/research/research-projects/mapping-edinburgh-s-social-history
[6]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/55.9821/-3.2444

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