Re: [Talk-GB] UK addresses

[Lester Caine]

On 13/08/14 17:06, Derick Rethans wrote:
>> On 13/08/14 12:38, SK53 wrote:
>>> > > Postcodes simply do not solve address issues.
>> > 
>> > I'm not saying they do ...
>> > 
>> > Only that there is no point adding 'University of Nottingham, 
>> > University Park, NOTTINGHAM' to every single location on the campus 
>> > when 'NG7 2RD' provides the same information?
> Postal street name != Real street name
> Postal town != Real town
> 
> So no, it doesn't.

On the rare occasions where they are different then one would need new
tags to identify the different names, but addr: should always be the
correct postal address ...

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK addresses

[David Woolley]

On 13/08/14 11:36, Will Phillips wrote:

2. I don't agree that tagging only postcode and 'addressable object' is
a good idea. To convert that into a full address requires access to a
closed database. Surely the whole point about OSM is creating useful



It's also a database which is incomplete; it doesn't include things like 
sub-stations, or "garages at the back of", which are contained in the 
National Land and Property Gazetteer 
.  This is what defines the 
unique identifiers actually used by councils and the emergency services.


This is another database that is being "monetized".

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK addresses

[Derick Rethans]

On Wed, 13 Aug 2014, Lester Caine wrote:

> On 13/08/14 12:38, SK53 wrote:
> > Postcodes simply do not solve address issues.
> 
> I'm not saying they do ...
> 
> Only that there is no point adding 'University of Nottingham, 
> University Park, NOTTINGHAM' to every single location on the campus 
> when 'NG7 2RD' provides the same information?

Postal street name != Real street name
Postal town != Real town

So no, it doesn't.

cheers,
Derick

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK addresses

[Lester Caine]

On 13/08/14 12:38, SK53 wrote:
> Postcodes simply do not solve address issues.

I'm not saying they do ...

Only that there is no point adding 'University of Nottingham, University
Park, NOTTINGHAM' to every single location on the campus when 'NG7 2RD'
provides the same information? That there are also inconsistencies is
probably to be expected since it's human beings that create the original
data :) In which case THEN the attached data on the object is used as a
higher priority to the linked versions. As I said, a street's identity
in NSG has nothing to do with it's postcode and hopefully some time soon
we will have open access to that information to mess things up again.
The problem is that using this much more consistent id is not something
humans will be comfortable with :(


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Re: [Talk-GB] UK addresses

[SK53]

Postcodes simply do not solve address issues.

They may mean that we can somehow handle any place where the Royal Mail
delivers post (given privatisation & possible Scottish independence, this
could conceivable be rather fewer places than it is now).

However, addresses have other purposes than mere postal delivery. There are
large numbers of places - notably university, hospital and industrial
campuses - which will have a single postcode and a single postal address,
but large numbers of addressable locations. The two obvious uses are
finding a place in person (whether using a map or a routing engine), and
cadastral data.

In addition there are many addresses where the postal street name is
different from the street name where the property is located.

One of the big advantages we have the Nottingham area address data is that
we have surveyed enough addresses on the ground to have be in the position
to identify the type and extent of exceptions to the typical urban address:
see slide 5 in my presentation
 at the Open Addresses
Symposium for some examples. Similar data is available from OSM for
Cambridge, Tendring and Birmingham.

Jerry




On 13 August 2014 12:12, Lester Caine  wrote:

> On 13/08/14 11:36, Will Phillips wrote:
> > 2. I don't agree that tagging only postcode and 'addressable object' is
> > a good idea. To convert that into a full address requires access to a
> > closed database. Surely the whole point about OSM is creating useful
> > data that is open? At the moment we don't even have sufficient open data
> > available to add an accurate postcode to every address. I hope more
> > address data will be made available under an open licence in the future,
> > but at the moment we have to work with what we have got.
>
> But the point here is if postcode is made a standard part of tagging
> addresses then the open data holes will naturally be filled. Currently
> there are a number of third party sources which could be pressed into
> use to fill the gap, but it's making them normal use on the ground that
> will solve the problem ...
>
> We do have a lot of postcode data already available but it's perhaps
> surprising that many objects that have their own postcode are not
> currently included when that information is available in the original
> sources. I've just added Ragley Hall postcode but a number of the
> locations I look at Monday it was missing.
>
> --
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK addresses

[Lester Caine]

On 13/08/14 11:36, Will Phillips wrote:
> 2. I don't agree that tagging only postcode and 'addressable object' is
> a good idea. To convert that into a full address requires access to a
> closed database. Surely the whole point about OSM is creating useful
> data that is open? At the moment we don't even have sufficient open data
> available to add an accurate postcode to every address. I hope more
> address data will be made available under an open licence in the future,
> but at the moment we have to work with what we have got.

But the point here is if postcode is made a standard part of tagging
addresses then the open data holes will naturally be filled. Currently
there are a number of third party sources which could be pressed into
use to fill the gap, but it's making them normal use on the ground that
will solve the problem ...

We do have a lot of postcode data already available but it's perhaps
surprising that many objects that have their own postcode are not
currently included when that information is available in the original
sources. I've just added Ragley Hall postcode but a number of the
locations I look at Monday it was missing.

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK addresses

[Will Phillips]

I use addr:flats regularly. I've recently been mapping high density 
areas around the city centre where a high proportion of the residential 
addresses are flats, often in converted factories. Here it seems 
worthwhile to add flat numbers when they are displayed outside the building.


Here's an example of a street where 12 buildings/entrances have been 
tagged with addresses, but that expands to 191 addresses if the flats 
are listed separately: 
http://osm-nottingham.org.uk/?z=18&lon=-1.14193&lat=52.95324&bgl=OSM,1,17&s=%22Woolpack%20Lane%22&st=AddressSearchJson


I use addr:unit as well. I use that for retail/commercial/industrial 
units rather than residential. If I tag addr:flats=1-10 then I'd assume 
that refers to 10 separate addresses, whereas I would assume 
addr:unit=1-3 is a single address. That's undocumented and others may 
disagree.


Cheers,
Will

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK addresses

[Will Phillips]

On 13/08/2014 09:11, Lester Caine wrote:

On 13/08/14 08:58, David Woolley wrote:

On 13/08/14 08:29, Lester Caine wrote:

rest can be cloned from the postcode - or some other unique ID for the
related object.

Only if you have purchased access to the PAF or National Gazeteer.
Capture of the former, on OSM, is patchy, and of the latter is
non-existent, or virtually so.

That data will be available, but it does not stop using the method to
add it to the OSM data currently. If you are adding 50 house numbers you
end up using the copy function to add a vast amount of data where one
only needs a small subset of that in practice! A lot of postcodes are
currently missing and it would be nice simply to import the raw missing
stuff, but it does not prevent good practice generally?

1. OSM data should be structured so that it is friendly for the people 
who go out and survey it. Having address tags on every object is 
inefficient, but it's also easy for everyone to understand. The option 
of using associatedStreet relations exists if you want to do it more 
efficiently. Personally I have stopped using them for now, because I 
have found inexperienced mappers don't know they are there and just add 
the data again on the individual objects.


2. I don't agree that tagging only postcode and 'addressable object' is 
a good idea. To convert that into a full address requires access to a 
closed database. Surely the whole point about OSM is creating useful 
data that is open? At the moment we don't even have sufficient open data 
available to add an accurate postcode to every address. I hope more 
address data will be made available under an open licence in the future, 
but at the moment we have to work with what we have got.


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Re: [Talk-GB] UK addresses

[Lester Caine]

On 13/08/14 08:58, David Woolley wrote:
> On 13/08/14 08:29, Lester Caine wrote:
>> rest can be cloned from the postcode - or some other unique ID for the
>> related object.
> 
> Only if you have purchased access to the PAF or National Gazeteer.
> Capture of the former, on OSM, is patchy, and of the latter is
> non-existent, or virtually so.

That data will be available, but it does not stop using the method to
add it to the OSM data currently. If you are adding 50 house numbers you
end up using the copy function to add a vast amount of data where one
only needs a small subset of that in practice! A lot of postcodes are
currently missing and it would be nice simply to import the raw missing
stuff, but it does not prevent good practice generally?

-- 
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK addresses

[Lester Caine]

On 13/08/14 08:54, Ed Loach wrote:
> Dan wrote:
> 
>>> addr:flats = 1-5;The Garden Flat;The Penthouse
>>
>> This one is news to me. It seems a bit quirky to use
> "addr:flats=3" to
>> represent "Flat 3" but if it's used then I'll use it. Do yall use
> it?
>>
>> (I think I've used addr:unit before, but never been sure)
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key%3Aaddr%3Aflats
> shows it is used almost 25000 times globally.
> 
> The addr:unit wiki description seems to be more about blocks inside
> a building rather than specific flat numbers.

This is where having different tags for 'housenumber', 'housename' and
the like gets confusing?  An office unit within a block on a street
needs the primary element 'unit number' and secondary element 'unit
name' in much the same way as houses on a parade adjacent to the street
and flats in a block.

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK addresses

[David Woolley]

On 13/08/14 08:29, Lester Caine wrote:

rest can be cloned from the postcode - or some other unique ID for the
related object.


Only if you have purchased access to the PAF or National Gazeteer. 
Capture of the former, on OSM, is patchy, and of the latter is 
non-existent, or virtually so.


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Re: [Talk-GB] UK addresses

[Ed Loach]

Dan wrote:

> > addr:flats = 1-5;The Garden Flat;The Penthouse
> 
> This one is news to me. It seems a bit quirky to use
"addr:flats=3" to
> represent "Flat 3" but if it's used then I'll use it. Do yall use
it?
> 
> (I think I've used addr:unit before, but never been sure)

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key%3Aaddr%3Aflats
shows it is used almost 25000 times globally.

The addr:unit wiki description seems to be more about blocks inside
a building rather than specific flat numbers.

Ed


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Re: [Talk-GB] UK addresses

[Dan S]

2014-08-12 23:18 GMT+01:00 Will Phillips :
> On 12/08/2014 22:46, Derick Rethans wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, Tom Hughes wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/08/14 20:18, Rob Nickerson wrote:
>>>
 Example 1

 Flat 2
 8 Something Road,
 Town,
 ...
>>>
>>> addr:flatnumber=2
>>
>> I actually have used addr:flat here before (and addr:unit for slightly
>> related things in like parades).
>>
>> cheers,
>> Derick
>
>
> I have occasionally used addr:flat when tagging the entrance to a single
> flat, but usually use addr:flats. I did use addr:flatnumber originally but
> changed to addr:flats as that seems  to have become more widely accepted.
>
> For what it's worth, there is a wiki page for addr:flats at
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr:flats
> The information there seems correct to me, although I might add that flat
> numbers can sometimes be letters or even names. I have tagged real examples
> like:
> addr:flats = 1-5;The Garden Flat;The Penthouse

This one is news to me. It seems a bit quirky to use "addr:flats=3" to
represent "Flat 3" but if it's used then I'll use it. Do yall use it?

(I think I've used addr:unit before, but never been sure)

Dan

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK addresses

[Lester Caine]

On 12/08/14 20:18, Rob Nickerson wrote:
> So... how do people tag UK addresses?
> 
> The standard for representing addresses in Britain is BS7666, which
> comprises:
> 
> * Primary addressable object name (PAON),
> * Secondary addressable object name (SAON),
> * street,
> * postcode,
> * locality (if available),
> * town,
> * county
> 
> This combination of PAON and SAON allows them to do easily capture
> addresses such as:

It STILL irritates me that in some places every building gets the full
list of entries. In which ever country of the world. In the UK the
'addressable object' data + postcode is all that is required since the
rest can be cloned from the postcode - or some other unique ID for the
related object. The structure should support this method of working and
then editors could pull up matching data where necessary.

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK addresses

[David Woolley]

On 12/08/14 23:08, Rob Nickerson wrote:

6, The Hollies,
Birmingham Road,
Town,


Cases I've seen are maisonettes and parades of shops.

I've used:

housenumber: 5
street: The Hollies, Birmingham Road

but that is more to ensure the data is captured than because it really 
seems right to me.


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Re: [Talk-GB] UK addresses

[SK53]

Two things:

   - I was emphatically told by people who know that the BS enables
   describing much more than mere postal addresses. In other words PAON, SAON
   etc., are not merely for building number & flat number.
   - Some of the issues you raise were discussed at last Friday's Open
   Addresses Symposium (bulk of slides here
   
),
   and the great and the good of the UK addressing world seemed to be of a
   like mind regarding how the Royal Mail PAF encodes addresses (that any open
   address scheme should handle places (locality etc) in ways which are useful
   over and above how the post is delivered.

Cheers,

Jerry

PS. My own slides are up on Slideshare too.




On 12 August 2014 20:18, Rob Nickerson  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Following on from my previous email to the list, this is a classic example
> where the wiki page has become so long and complex I can't make head or
> tail of it.
>
> So... how do people tag UK addresses?
>
> The standard for representing addresses in Britain is BS7666, which
> comprises:
>
> * Primary addressable object name (PAON),
> * Secondary addressable object name (SAON),
> * street,
> * postcode,
> * locality (if available),
> * town,
> * county
>
> This combination of PAON and SAON allows them to do easily capture
> addresses such as:
>
> Example 1
>
> Flat 2
> 8 Something Road,
> Town,
> ...
>
> Example 2
>
> 6, The Hollies,
> Birmingham Road,
> Town,
> ...
>
> How would these map to OSM's tags?
>
> Finally how would you tag something like:
>
> Business Name,
> Building Name,
> Something Technology Park,
> Other thing Road,
> Town,
> ...
>
>
> Thanks,
> Rob
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK addresses

[Will Phillips]

On 12/08/2014 22:46, Derick Rethans wrote:

On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, Tom Hughes wrote:


On 12/08/14 20:18, Rob Nickerson wrote:


Example 1

Flat 2
8 Something Road,
Town,
...

addr:flatnumber=2

I actually have used addr:flat here before (and addr:unit for slightly
related things in like parades).

cheers,
Derick


I have occasionally used addr:flat when tagging the entrance to a single 
flat, but usually use addr:flats. I did use addr:flatnumber originally 
but changed to addr:flats as that seems  to have become more widely 
accepted.


For what it's worth, there is a wiki page for addr:flats at 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr:flats
The information there seems correct to me, although I might add that 
flat numbers can sometimes be letters or even names. I have tagged real 
examples like:

addr:flats = 1-5;The Garden Flat;The Penthouse

Cheers,
Will


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Re: [Talk-GB] UK addresses

[Rob Nickerson]

On 12 August 2014 21:43, Tom Hughes  wrote:

> On 12/08/14 20:18, Rob Nickerson wrote:
>
>> Example 2
>>
>> 6, The Hollies,
>> Birmingham Road,
>> Town,
>> ...
>>
>
> Hard to say without knowing what "The Hollies" is exactly, but this is
> probably a case that we don't have a good answer for at the moment.
>
>

I wasn't aware of the addr:flatnumber tag so thanks for that. In regards to
The Hollies, I didn't survey that one myself but gather it is a collection
of new houses on Birmingham Road (with a short stubby service road):

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=52.63901&mlon=-1.83537#map=19/52.63901/-1.83537&layers=N

Examples I've seen include modern gated "courtyard" community:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=52.21581&mlon=-1.87158#map=19/52.21581/-1.87158&layers=N

and a slightly older set of houses that must have been built after the
other houses on the street were removed:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=52.21740&mlon=-1.86922#map=19/52.21740/-1.86922&layers=N

So far I have been tagging these as addr:housenumber=6, The Hollies. Other
ideas welcome.

Rob
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Re: [Talk-GB] UK addresses

[Derick Rethans]

On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, Tom Hughes wrote:

> On 12/08/14 20:18, Rob Nickerson wrote:
> 
> > Example 1
> > 
> > Flat 2
> > 8 Something Road,
> > Town,
> > ...
> 
> addr:flatnumber=2

I actually have used addr:flat here before (and addr:unit for slightly 
related things in like parades).

cheers,
Derick

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK addresses

[Will Phillips]

Hi,

I think we could do with a wiki page dedicated to tagging UK addresses 
and covering how to tag the more complicated cases. The problem at the 
moment is that there has been little discussion and no consensus about 
certain situations such as tagging parent/subsidiary streets.


I have been active in mapping addresses around Nottingham for a while 
and do always try to record addresses as fully as possible. I have 
personal methods for handling almost all situations that I encounter, 
but these are sometimes not fully documented, which is obviously not ideal.


This is how I would tag Rob's examples:


Flat 2
8 Something Road,
Town,

addr:flats = 2
addr:housenumber = 8
addr:street = Something Road
addr:city = Town


6, The Hollies,
Birmingham Road,
Town,

If 'The Hollies' is a building I would use:
addr:flats = 6
addr:housename = The Hollies
addr:street = Birmingham Road
addr:city = Town

If 'The Hollies' is a subsidiary street I would use:
addr:housenumber = 6
addr:street = The Hollies
addr:parentstreet = Birmingham Road
addr:city = Town

Here the 'addr:parentstreet' tag is completely non-standard. I use it 
quite regularly in the interest of getting things done, but with the 
intention of changing it in future if consensus is reached regarding a 
standard way to do it.


I work on the assumption that addr:housenumber must refer to the 
addr:street tag (so it shouldn't be a flat number or refer to a 
different (parent or subsidiary) street.



Business Name,
Building Name,
Something Technology Park,
Other thing Road,
Town,

name = Business Name
addr:housename = Building Name
addr:place = Something Technology Park
addr:street = Other thing Road
addr:city = Town

This assumes that 'Something Technology Park' is not a physical street, 
but a named area that functions like a street for addressing purposes.


Localities:
I tend to use addr:suburb to record localities where they appear in the 
official address. I'm never sure which tag is best for village or hamlet 
names where addr:suburb seems wrong.


Cheers,
Will

On 12/08/2014 20:18, Rob Nickerson wrote:

Hi All,

Following on from my previous email to the list, this is a classic 
example where the wiki page has become so long and complex I can't 
make head or tail of it.


So... how do people tag UK addresses?

The standard for representing addresses in Britain is BS7666, which 
comprises:


* Primary addressable object name (PAON),
* Secondary addressable object name (SAON),
* street,
* postcode,
* locality (if available),
* town,
* county

This combination of PAON and SAON allows them to do easily capture 
addresses such as:


Example 1

Flat 2
8 Something Road,
Town,
...

Example 2

6, The Hollies,
Birmingham Road,
Town,
...

How would these map to OSM's tags?

Finally how would you tag something like:

Business Name,
Building Name,
Something Technology Park,
Other thing Road,
Town,
...


Thanks,
Rob


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Re: [Talk-GB] UK addresses

[Andy Mabbett]

On 12 August 2014 20:18, Rob Nickerson  wrote:

> The standard for representing addresses in Britain is BS7666

It's worth comparing that with the (international) vCard standard:

   http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc6350.txt

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VCard

used by address book software, etc.

> which comprises:
>
> * Primary addressable object name (PAON),

the extended address (e.g., apartment or suite number);

> * Secondary addressable object name (SAON),
> * street,

the street address;

> * postcode,

the postal code;

> * locality (if available),
> * town,

the locality (e.g., city);

> * county

 the region (e.g., state or province);

and of course also has the country name.

Standards, schmandards, eh?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] UK addresses

[Tom Hughes]

On 12/08/14 20:18, Rob Nickerson wrote:


Example 1

Flat 2
8 Something Road,
Town,
...


addr:flatnumber=2
addr:housenumber=8
addr:street=Something Road

(I don't normally tag anything beyond the street)


Example 2

6, The Hollies,
Birmingham Road,
Town,
...


Hard to say without knowing what "The Hollies" is exactly, but this is 
probably a case that we don't have a good answer for at the moment.



Finally how would you tag something like:

Business Name,
Building Name,
Something Technology Park,
Other thing Road,
Town,
...


name=Business Name
addr:housename=Building Name

and probably:

addr:street=Something Technology Park

assuming that the technology park is actually a road, or collection or 
roads, that comes off Other thing Road.


eg http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/123243789

Tom

--
Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
http://compton.nu/

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