Re: [Talk-us] Medians and reverts
On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 05:58:10PM -0800, Alan Mintz wrote: At 2011-12-21 12:59, Paul Johnson wrote: On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 01:51:37PM -0500, Richard Weait wrote: On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: I'm looking through a situation that is clearly frustrating data consumers Are these consumers entering HOV lanes without direction from the nav system then expecting the nav system to tell them how to get out of the HOV lane? In some cases, yes. In others, being directed to take ramps only available from the HOV lane. All of which are good reasons to draw HOV lanes as separate ways. I've also sometimes drawn the HOV parts of onramps separately, since it is the cleanest way to tag different access restrictions, number of lanes, traffic control devices, etc. I agree with this. There seems to be this ability to say that this is wrong, but without constructive critisism that produces a viable alternative, I'm at a loss on how to handle it any other way. What is the alternative? Some kind of tagging scheme that refers to individual lanes within a single way? That's already kind of annoying when trying to accurately map bike lanes (because they don't exactly follow the car lanes physically or schematically). That's kind of where I'm at. In the example changeset I gave in the head of the thread, what replaced the individual ways was hov=lane (the closest hov= tag would be designated, given that it's an access tag), which obviously doesn't work because we don't have access=lane, not to mention any individual tag misses the routing nuance. So, that completely misses all birds with any number of stones... It's not ideal, surely, but given that we already have routable ways sharing the same pavement area using multiple ways when routing isn't straightforward or intuitive outside of these lines (ex: LAX's tarmac, given runways, taxiways and the passenger apron all share the same giant concrete slab; parking_aisles in parking lots), I was rather surprised that the Ronald Reagan Freeway got crushed like it did. Lacking a viable alternative that routes properly, I plan on going back to my initial intuition sometime within the week assuming a better way doesn't come along between now and then. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Medians and reverts
At 2011-12-21 12:59, Paul Johnson wrote: On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 01:51:37PM -0500, Richard Weait wrote: On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: I'm looking through a situation that is clearly frustrating data consumers Are these consumers entering HOV lanes without direction from the nav system then expecting the nav system to tell them how to get out of the HOV lane? In some cases, yes. In others, being directed to take ramps only available from the HOV lane. All of which are good reasons to draw HOV lanes as separate ways. I've also sometimes drawn the HOV parts of onramps separately, since it is the cleanest way to tag different access restrictions, number of lanes, traffic control devices, etc. What is the alternative? Some kind of tagging scheme that refers to individual lanes within a single way? That's already kind of annoying when trying to accurately map bike lanes (because they don't exactly follow the car lanes physically or schematically). -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Medians and reverts
[Richard] Clearly these evil paint-separated commuter lanes are a gateway way to one-area-per-lane micro-mapping. [...] [Paul] I'm not seeing how the slippery slope argument applies [...] Nor am I. Choosing to model distinct, disparate, and incompatible traffic flows as a single flow when they are separated by paint, but as discrete flows when they are separated by anything other than paint, strikes me as an inconsistency for a traffic flow model. I'd also like to defend the concept of a single-way-per-lane model as a noble goal rather than a pedantic endeavor. There are useful concepts that I'd like to convey that I cannot, due to the current multiple-lanes-per-way model. While acknowledging the cost (in time and effort) of implementing it, I'd submit that a single-way-per-lane model is the penultimate model of traffic flow. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Medians and reverts
On Wed, 2011-12-21 at 15:39 -0600, Toby Murray wrote: On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 01:51:37PM -0500, Richard Weait wrote: On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: I'm looking through a situation that is clearly frustrating data consumers Are these consumers entering HOV lanes without direction from the nav system then expecting the nav system to tell them how to get out of the HOV lane? I would expect this. A nav system won't know if there are multiple people in the car so it can't tell the driver to get in the HOV lane although it could suggest it I guess. But if the driver chooses to enter it, the nav system should ideally detect this (GPS accuracy permitting) and instruct them when to exit it. OK, since it seems to be a pretty even split with no consensus, if I fix it so it routes properly, are we going to have problems with folks self-righteously and unilaterally destroying it again? signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Medians and reverts
On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 03:39:06PM -0600, Toby Murray wrote: On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 01:51:37PM -0500, Richard Weait wrote: On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: I'm looking through a situation that is clearly frustrating data consumers Are these consumers entering HOV lanes without direction from the nav system then expecting the nav system to tell them how to get out of the HOV lane? I would expect this. A nav system won't know if there are multiple people in the car so it can't tell the driver to get in the HOV lane although it could suggest it I guess. But if the driver chooses to enter it, the nav system should ideally detect this (GPS accuracy permitting) and instruct them when to exit it. So, guys...yes? No? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Medians and reverts
On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 2:09 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: So, guys...yes? No? My mapping style is No. I don't use a separate way for turning lanes indicated only by paint either. Clearly these evil paint-separated commuter lanes are a gateway way to one-area-per-lane micro-mapping. Just say no. :-) ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Medians and reverts
On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 02:26:50PM -0500, Richard Weait wrote: On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 2:09 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: So, guys...yes? ?No? My mapping style is No. I don't use a separate way for turning lanes indicated only by paint either. Clearly these evil paint-separated commuter lanes are a gateway way to one-area-per-lane micro-mapping. Just say no. I'm not seeing how the slippery slope argument applies when routing is adversely affected by not having these mapped seperately when they function as seperate roads. Care to share? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Medians and reverts
What to model as discrete ways has always struck me as a gray area in the OSM model. I'm of the opinion that,at locations where traffic maynot or cannottransfer from one linear flow to another, the flows should be modelled as discrete ways. Thereason for the inability to transfer between flows should not be a determining factor in deciding what to model as separate ways.If I can't transfer between flows, I want to know that; whether the reason for being unable to transfer is stripes of paint or a 10 foot tall concrete barrier or a median of weeds and dirt is not germane. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Medians and reverts
Am 22.12.2011 17:36, schrieb Craig Hinners: What to model as discrete ways has always struck me as a gray area in the OSM model. I'm of the opinion that, at locations where traffic /may/ not or /can/ not transfer from one linear flow to another, the flows should be modelled as discrete ways. The reason for the inability to transfer between flows should not be a determining factor in deciding what to model as separate ways. If I can't transfer between flows, I want to know that; whether the reason for being unable to transfer is stripes of paint or a 10 foot tall concrete barrier or a median of weeds and dirt is not germane. In the italian mailing list, the same question came up. There, one user pointed out that e.g. an ambulance car could switch tracks over stripes of paint, but not if there's a concrete wall. This way, routing software would not show a possibility for the ambulance car to switch to a certain track because it thinks it's physically impossible, -- cheers, Alex ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Medians and reverts
Paul Norman penor...@mac.com I would not separate a road with a double-yellow in the middle into two separate ways And millions of miles of two-lane roads with opposing flows have been modeled in OSM as single ways. But why? I'd submit that it's because the current de facto usage of ways is to model contiguous areas of improved driving surfaces, not traffic flows. To prove my point, if I milled out a one-foot wide swath of asphalt where the double yellow lines are to create a median consisting of nothing other than dirt, but changed absolutely nothing else in regards to the traffic flows, I'd suddenly be expected to model this in OSM as two discrete ways. All I've done is replaced paint with dirt. I've changed nothing in regards to the legality of transferring between the flows (paint or median, I still am not allowed to transfer between the flows). I've changed nothing about the physical ability to transfer between them (I can drive over a patch of dirt as easily as I can drive over a stripe of paint). Yet I've changed how I model them. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Medians and reverts
On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 04:11:09PM -0600, John F. Eldredge wrote: Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/21/2011 12:45 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: In California, carpool lanes are seperated by a painted median. This is what's in dispute. Is the following a median or simply a lane separator? http://www.scvresources.com/highways/118_hov_lane.jpg Are the HOV restrictions in effect at all times, or only for part of the day? The HOV restrictions on inbound highways in Nashville, TN are only in effect for certain morning hours on weekdays (inbound rush hour), and those on outbound highways are only in effect for certain late-afternoon hours on weekdays (evening rush hour). The rest of the time, the HOV lanes are treated as normal lanes. If the HOV lane restrictions are not 24/7, I would class those as lane separators, not medians. Also, if a vehicle with enough passengers is allowed to move into/out of the HOV lanes at any point, I would not classify the markings as a median, but only as a lane separator. In California, most are 24/7. When they're not, they're either closed to all traffic and treated as dead space, or PSV-only outside HOV hours. All traffic is prohibited from making lane changes in areas where the white-orange-orange lines are present, with the general access lanes functionally being the right shoulder for HOV traffic, and the HOV area treated as the left shoulder for general access traffic. Every 1-3 miles where lane changes are permitted, lane changes in and out of the HOV area is permitted for traffic allowed in that lane, no other locations. These restrictions are strictly enforced, as the difference in speed between the HOV lane and general access is frequently in excess of 60 MPH during peak traffic periods in sections where the HOV lane is isolated. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Medians and reverts
On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 03:39:06PM -0600, Toby Murray wrote: On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 01:51:37PM -0500, Richard Weait wrote: On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: I'm looking through a situation that is clearly frustrating data consumers Are these consumers entering HOV lanes without direction from the nav system then expecting the nav system to tell them how to get out of the HOV lane? I would expect this. A nav system won't know if there are multiple people in the car so it can't tell the driver to get in the HOV lane although it could suggest it I guess. But if the driver chooses to enter it, the nav system should ideally detect this (GPS accuracy permitting) and instruct them when to exit it. Exactly. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Medians and reverts
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 09:36:41AM -0700, Craig Hinners wrote: The reason for the inability to transfer between flows should not be a determining factor in deciding what to model as separate ways. If I can't transfer between flows, I want to know that; whether the reason for being unable to transfer is stripes of paint or a 10 foot tall concrete barrier or a median of weeds and dirt is not germane. This was my rationale as well. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Medians and reverts
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 06:14:28PM +0100, Alexander Roalter wrote: This way, routing software would not show a possibility for the ambulance car to switch to a certain track because it thinks it's physically impossible, Seems like a seperate enclosed area=yes would handle the edge case scenario you describe. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Medians and reverts
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 12:53 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: the difference in speed between the HOV lane and general access is frequently in excess of 60 MPH during peak traffic periods in sections where the HOV lane is isolated. Which brings up another point that the speed *limit* may be different too as well as other attributes of the road. Tagging all this on a single way (maxspeed:hov, surface:hov, etc ?) seems like a nightmare. If there are enough distinguishing characteristics between it and the main road I would say make it its own way. And FYI I have already seen proposals to map individual lanes within a single road as areas. Now that's just crazy talk in my opinion but I guess the Germans have to do something to keep from getting bored. Toby ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Medians and reverts
On Dec 22, 2011, at 10:53 AM, Paul Johnson wrote: On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 04:11:09PM -0600, John F. Eldredge wrote: Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/21/2011 12:45 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: In California, carpool lanes are seperated by a painted median. This is what's in dispute. Is the following a median or simply a lane separator? http://www.scvresources.com/highways/118_hov_lane.jpg Are the HOV restrictions in effect at all times, or only for part of the day? The HOV restrictions on inbound highways in Nashville, TN are only in effect for certain morning hours on weekdays (inbound rush hour), and those on outbound highways are only in effect for certain late-afternoon hours on weekdays (evening rush hour). The rest of the time, the HOV lanes are treated as normal lanes. If the HOV lane restrictions are not 24/7, I would class those as lane separators, not medians. Also, if a vehicle with enough passengers is allowed to move into/out of the HOV lanes at any point, I would not classify the markings as a median, but only as a lane separator. In California, most are 24/7. When they're not, they're either closed to all traffic and treated as dead space, or PSV-only outside HOV hours. All traffic is prohibited from making lane changes in areas where the white-orange-orange lines are present, with the general access lanes functionally being the right shoulder for HOV traffic, and the HOV area treated as the left shoulder for general access traffic. Every 1-3 miles where lane changes are permitted, lane changes in and out of the HOV area is permitted for traffic allowed in that lane, no other locations. These restrictions are strictly enforced, as the difference in speed between the HOV lane and general access is frequently in excess of 60 MPH during peak traffic periods in sections where the HOV lane is isolated. Not at all. California is large and isn't consistent across different counties. I know only a single place where it's like that in northern California. And this is a new and special testing area it's not only a normal HOV lane it's a pay per use at rush hours and free to use otherwise. Cost varies based on traffic. Not exactly a HOV lane where use is allowed for cars with a minimum of 2 or 3 passengers or fuel efficient cars. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Medians and reverts
In California, most are 24/7. When they're not, they're either closed to all traffic and treated as dead space, or PSV-only outside HOV hours. This is not true in northern California on 280, 101, 880, or any of the other major roads. All traffic is prohibited from making lane changes in areas where the white-orange-orange lines are present, with the general access lanes functionally being the right shoulder for HOV traffic, and the HOV area treated as the left shoulder for general access traffic. Every 1-3 miles where lane changes are permitted, lane changes in and out of the HOV area is permitted for traffic allowed in that lane, no other locations. This is also not true in Northern California. You can enter and exit the lanes at any point. These restrictions are strictly enforced, as the difference in speed between the HOV lane and general access is frequently in excess of 60 MPH during peak traffic periods in sections where the HOV lane is isolated. Even enforcement in Northern California is sporadic. -David ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Medians and reverts
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 11:45:36AM -0800, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: Not at all. California is large and isn't consistent across different counties. I know only a single place where it's like that in northern California. And this is a new and special testing area it's not only a normal HOV lane it's a pay per use at rush hours and free to use otherwise. Cost varies based on traffic. Not exactly a HOV lane where use is allowed for cars with a minimum of 2 or 3 passengers or fuel efficient cars. That doesn't really change the nature of what I was saying at all; it's still a restricted lane 24 hours. Some close at night, some allow single-occupant tolls, others go bus only at night. But, that doesn't change the ultimate point, which is we have a limited-access lane that functionally has a median between it and the rest of traffic in most locations. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Medians and reverts
Greetings, On Dec 22, 2011, at 1:57 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 11:45:36AM -0800, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: Not at all. California is large and isn't consistent across different counties. I know only a single place where it's like that in northern California. And this is a new and special testing area it's not only a normal HOV lane it's a pay per use at rush hours and free to use otherwise. Cost varies based on traffic. Not exactly a HOV lane where use is allowed for cars with a minimum of 2 or 3 passengers or fuel efficient cars. That doesn't really change the nature of what I was saying at all; it's still a restricted lane 24 hours. Some close at night, some allow single-occupant tolls, others go bus only at night. But, that doesn't change the ultimate point, which is we have a limited-access lane that functionally has a median between it and the rest of traffic in most locations. But in Northern California there is not a median between it and the rest of traffic. You are extrapolating from your own experiences for an entire, very large, state and it isn't valid. -David ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Medians and reverts
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 02:07:53PM -0600, David Kovar wrote: But in Northern California there is not a median between it and the rest of traffic. You are extrapolating from your own experiences for an entire, very large, state and it isn't valid. Let there be no mistake, I'm not referring to locations where the restricted lane is seperated from the rest of the pavement in the same direction by a standard lane delineator indicating a lane restriction is in place as indicated by signage (single solid double-width line). The discussion at hand are hard medians seperating two roadways sharing the same physical band of pavement, movement across which is always prohibited, regardless of restrictions. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Medians and reverts
On 12/21/2011 5:11 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote: Also, if a vehicle with enough passengers is allowed to move into/out of the HOV lanes at any point, I would not classify the markings as a median, but only as a lane separator. The line can only be crossed at certain points, much like a double yellow in the middle of a two-way road. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
