Re: Re[2]: Threading?

[Allie]

Hi Stefan,
  On 18/05/2005 12:01 AM +0300, you wrote:
Because TB! doesn't yet observe all the rules of the IMAP protocol
and just ignores many of the commands issued by the server.
Interesting enough. Do you have any concrete examples handy?
Early in my Mulberry days, I had a problem with Mulberry not 
recognizing some signed messages as such. However, TB! had no such 
problems. It turned out that Mulberry followed the IMAP protocol to the 
letter and retrieves only that much message header information 
required. If the IMAP server was not buggy it would send the 
information about whether or not the message was signed. I reported 
this to MDaemon support and a fix was soon implemented.

Tony's issue is just another example of how Mulberry depends on the 
IMAP server for parsing headers. This is part of the protocol. OTOH, 
TB! doesn't take advantage of this IMAP capability and doesn't fall 
victim to the servers buggy header parsing.

--
Cheers,
  -= Allie M. =-
Eat Healthy, Exercise, and Die Anyway ...

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Re: Re[4]: Threading?

[Allie Martin]

Hi Stefan,
  On 18/05/2005 09:44 AM +0300, you wrote:
Actually, TB! does take advantage of IMAP protocol on signed messages:
when TB! is downloading structure of a message, it checks whether a
message is signed and downloads signed messages entirely even when
message textual part only is required (as in header+text sync or
message preview) :-)
Of course, I can never really claim it takes no advantage of the 
protocol. This would be untrue.

--
 Allie Martin
System specs: http://www.ac-martin.com/sysspecs.htm
-=-=-
Oxymoron: Reinvent.

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Re: Re[6]: Threading?

[Tony Boom]

Hello Stefan.

--On 18 May 2005 17:52 +0300 you wrote about Re[6]: Threading?:


> I could not understand this part then:

What Allie means is, Mulberry follows the IMAP protocol right down to the
very last bit of every byte. The Bat skips most of it out and completely
ignores the parts it don't understand.

Which is why I had a problem with threading. My server has a bug somewhere
in it and Mulberry was affected by it because it wasn't getting the correct
response. The Bat wasn't affected because it just ignored what it was being
told by the server.

At least that's the way it was explained to me anyway. 

-- 

Tony.

M.

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Re: Re[6]: Threading?

[Allie Martin]

Hi Stefan,
   On 18/05/2005 05:52 PM +0300, you wrote:

> I could not understand this part then:
> 
> ===8<==cut=here==
> =
> 
> Tony's issue is just another example of how Mulberry depends on the
> IMAP server for parsing headers. This is part of the protocol. OTOH, 
> TB! doesn't take advantage of this IMAP capability and doesn't fall 
> victim to the servers buggy header parsing.
> 
> ===8<==cut=here==
> =

My bad English. We sometimes say things with loose generalisations in
the mix.

Mulberry doesn't parse headers locally for IMAP mailboxes. It just uses
the parsing the server does. TB! doesn't do that. I was referring to
this specific issue. The same goes for that particular issue with
detecting PGP signatures. Again, Mulberry depends on the server
providing specific information about the message to detect the presence
of the signature. If the server doesn't, then Mulberry is in trouble.
TB! isn't in both situations.

OTOH, there are many examples that can be sited where TB! does take
advantage of IMAP capability where selective retrieval is concerned or
where it depends on the server to provide specific data about messages
in mailboxes.

Additionally, it's difficult for me to give specifics since I don't
know the specifics. I do see what the Mulberry developers are trying to
say when the issues are cured by transferring the messages to a local
folder where Mulberry no longer has to depend on the server.

-- 
  Allie Martin
System specs: http://www.ac-martin.com/sysspecs.htm
-=-=-
Trust me, I'm a lawyer..



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Re: Re[8]: Threading?

[Allie Martin]

Hi Stefan,
   On 18/05/2005 07:19 PM +0300, you wrote:

> Not true - this is what I tried to say. The Bat! recognises signed
> messages using IMAP features when it synchronises or downloads
> messages for preview (when the option to download text only is set).
> It also recognises presence of attachments and signed messages if it
> downloads message structures together with message headers. The
> reason why TB! recognises signatures is because it uses IMAP features
> AND parses messages locally (when messages are loaded into the
> viewer), not because it is ignoring IMAP advantages :-)

Of course, I can't comment here. Too ignorant!!! :)

Cyrus Daboo is far better at this techochat than I am. I don't know
remotely as much. It would be interesting to see you both discuss this
sort of stuff. :)

-- 
  Allie Martin
System specs: http://www.ac-martin.com/sysspecs.htm
-=-=-
Oxymoron: Still Life.



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Re: Re[8]: Threading?

[Allie Martin]

Hi Stefan,
   On 18/05/2005 07:28 PM +0300, you wrote:

>> The Bat wasn't affected because it just ignored what it was being
>> told by the server.
> 
> No, see my message to Allie - TB! just asked more questions to IMAP
> :-)

Right!

-- 
  Allie Martin
System specs: http://www.ac-martin.com/sysspecs.htm
-=-=-
Oxymoron: Still Life.



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Re: Re[10]: Threading?

[Allie Martin]

Hi Stefan,
   On 18/05/2005 07:43 PM +0300, you wrote:

> Well, for some reason, I was disconnected from the IMAP mailing list.
> I've been there for quite a while, but in silent mode, so there was a
> chance to start a discussion with him there, I just didn't use it.
> :-) Maybe, I'll be back there when I have more time.

hehe. Pity I'll not be there to 'listen'. :)

-- 
  Allie Martin
System specs: http://www.ac-martin.com/sysspecs.htm
-=-=-
Friendship is one soul in two bodies. -Frost



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Re: Re[8]: Threading?

[Tony Boom]

Hello Stefan.

--On 18 May 2005 19:28 +0300 you wrote about Re[8]: Threading?:


> Hmm. Good motto for IMAP client developers - if anything goes wrong, blame
> the server! Just a joke,

Not such a joke, I said exactly the same thing to Allie and Gary, in fact
my exact words were and I quote directly from my message to Allie...

> And his final verdict... To pass the buck. I can't see it myself because
> if it was my server stripping the headers then it would also happen when I
> used The Bat! surely?

However, the evidence that was presented to me was overwhelming and I had
to eat my words and concede defeat.


> Well, to maintain political correctness, I would give no comment on this
> :-)
 
I think I'll have to agree with you there, your a very proficient
programmer, I just have to rely on what I'm told by those better versed in
the subject so I'll shut up as well.


-- 

Tony.

M.

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Re: Re[2]: 3.5.0.14

[Tony Boom]

Hello Julien.

--On 24 May 2005 19:55 +0200 you wrote about Re[2]: 3.5.0.14:


> Confirmed here too.

Is it worth me bothering?

-- 

Tony.

M.

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Re: Re[2]: 3.5.0.14

[Tony Boom]

Hello Maxim.

--On 24 May 2005 22:10 +0300 you wrote about Re[2]: 3.5.0.14:


> Could you please send a screenshot of the network errors?

Pleasure.

-- 

Tony.

M.<>

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Re: Re[2]: 3.5.0.16

[Tony Boom]

Hello Maxim.

--On 25 May 2005 11:02 +0300 you wrote about Re[2]: 3.5.0.16:


> Does 3.5.0.16 work OK?

Not for me it doesn't. See my previous. I was just getting my confidence
back as well :(

-- 

Tony.

M.

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Re: Re[2]: 3.5.0.16

[Tony Boom]

Hello Maxim.

--On 25 May 2005 12:43 +0300 you wrote about Re[2]: 3.5.0.16:


> I've also got this on F4 :-(

I am so pleased I'm not alone. 

-- 

Tony.

M.

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Re: Re[2]: 3.5.0.14

[Clive Taylor]

--On 25 May 2005 16:30 +0200 Marek Mikus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


if You open archived plugin in TC, it will be automatically installed
into it, this is easiest way :-)


I KNEW that, but Tony obviously has too much time on his hands. I wanted to 
slow down his posting rate here :)


--
Clive Taylor




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Re: Re[2]: 3.5.0.14

[Tony Boom]

Hello Clive.

--On 25 May 2005 15:35 +0100 you wrote about Re: Re[2]: 3.5.0.14:


> I KNEW that, but Tony obviously has too much time on his hands. I wanted
> to slow down his posting rate here :)

If The Bat! worked with IMAP or if Mulberry worked with PGP I could perhaps
forget about both of them and go get a life. Check my email once a day or
every 4 or 5 hours or so, safe in the knowledge that all the mail sent to
me is in the right folder, safe in the knowledge that signatures verify and
no  ones been tampering with my mail.

But alas, both seem a VERY long way off and the only sane option is to dump
email altogether. So I'm off, I've had enough it's been really nice knowing
all of you, a crap experience but still nice knowing you all.

Bonvoyemail to you all... (A single tear rolls down the cheek followed by a
big snotty sniff.)

-- 

Tony.

M.

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Re: Re[2]: 3.5.0.17

[Manuel Breitfeld]

Hi Maxim,
   --<> 25.05.2005 22:35 +0300:


I attached a screenshot. Any hints and/or ideas?

I couldn't understand what's wrong by looking to the screenshot. Could
you please expain by words?


Can't you see the black bars at the left and right? Don't say this is 
default. ;)


--
Manuel, http://www.manuel-breitfeld.de


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Re: Re[2]: 3.5.0.17

[Tony Boom]

Hello Maxim.

--On 26 May 2005 21:36 +0300 you wrote about Re[2]: 3.5.0.17:

To:  Roelof Otten 
> I have this too :-( I'll fix it when I know how to fix it.

To: Mary Bull
> Yes, we'll make .18 briefly.

To: Alexander S. Kunz about a spelling mistake!
> OK, we'll fix this.

Don't suppose you've read any of my messages no?

Not to worry, I suppose security flaws are not as important as a spelling
mistake in a version number.

-- 

Tony.

M.


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Re: Re[4]: 3.5.0.17

[Tony Boom]

Hello Maxim.

--On 26 May 2005 22:11 +0300 you wrote about Re[4]: 3.5.0.17:


> No, I didn't, yet.

Didn't think so.

It's not as important as a missing icons or a spelling mistake but if you
get a spare minute I'd like to be able to delete unwanted mail when I
switch folders if at all possible please. Instead of having to fire
Mulberry up to delete them properly.

-- 

Tony.

M.


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Re: Re[6]: 3.5.0.17

[Allie Martin]

Hi Maxim,
   On 26/05/2005 10:22 PM +0300, you wrote:

> BTW, we are using WU IMAP Server by Mark Crispin and BatPost Server by
> Ritlabs, and finally since version .14, I have no problems with IMAP.

What does this mean then? No problems to duplicate and hence unable to
fix current problems still experienced by others using other servers
than Batpost? 

-- 
  Allie Martin
System specs: http://www.ac-martin.com/sysspecs.htm
-=-=-
'Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.



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Re: Re[2]: 3.5.25

[Tony Boom]

Hello Maxim.

--On 01 June 2005 13:55 +0300 you wrote about Re[2]: 3.5.25:


> We will let you know when we get back to IMAP.

Oh dear, I thought you already said IMAP was going to have priority during
this beta cycle?  Perhaps I read it wrong and you said the next beta cycle
or maybe the one after that. 

-- 

Tony.

M.

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Re: Re[2]: 3.5.26

[Avi Yashar]

On 6/7/05, Maxim Masiutin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >>Maxim, I am glad to see that the 3.5x beta series is continuing. I am
> >>very sorry to report that the Conncection Centre still opens in the
> >>background.
> 
> It's just a fix for the "OTFE" bug.

Okay, Maxim, I can understand that. But what about the Connection
Centre bug that I have been reporting since RC5. Is it really that
difficult to fix? I mean, we're not talking about IMAP here! :-)

> >>I am also sorry to report that I still have no automated way to
> >>upgrade or change my settings to OTFE.
> 
> We don't plan it currently.

I think that is a pity, but I could almost live with that - I might
even go through the backup+clean-install - if you would just fix that
Connection Centre issue - the CC opening in the background when I
select an account from the dropdown (popup) menu off the toolbar.

-- 
Avi Yashar
Windows XP Pro SP2 and The Bat! Pro 3.5.26


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Re: Re[2]: PGP

[Tony Boom]

--On Wednesday, June 08, 2005 12:15:29 -0500 Michael Acklin 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



I just did as you said and it works like a charm.


It's not 100% in as much as TB menu entries for PGP Keys etc don't work but 
at least it signs.


Glad to be of help.

--
Tony.

LM


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Re: Re[2]: 3.5.27

[Avi Yashar]

On 6/17/05, Maxim Masiutin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >>But then I think I said all of this already with my one short question
> >>to Maxim. I therefore apologize to everyone for repeating myself at
> >>such length.
> We are now doing such fixes like IMAP, Exchange and Unicode, they may take 
> weeks to be fixed, there may be no betas during that period or just minor 
> fixes like double clicks, please don't get bothered by them. If this fix 
> gives no particular value to you, you may skip downloading this version, this 
> is all too easy.

Thanks for small roadmap, Maxim. This is a large part of what I've
wanted to know for the last month. However, I hope that in your list
of "small fixes" you include the Connection Centre bug reports (like
mine, which no one at RL has yet acknowledged) and also work out why
the Message Finder hangs interminably for me when I install OTFE (and
restore from backup) along with other people's reports of the Message
Finder being slow or hanging.

-- 
Avi Yashar
Windows XP Pro SP2 and The Bat! Pro (No OTFE) 3.5.26


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Re: Re[2]: 3.5.27

[Kevin Menard]

Hi Paul,

On 6/16/05, Paul Van Noord <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> AY> of us on this forum are not just disappointed but angry.
> Speak for yourself. I haven't given you permission

You're not my father, and I don't need your permission!

See how foolish it is when you quote things out of context?  Avi,
clearly said "many", not "all", but you cut that part out.  Now, the
definition of "many" is subjective, but you can safely exclude
yourself from it.

Apologies to everyone else.  I tried hard to refrain from responding,
but this list is getting ridiculous with the attitudes people throw
around on it these days.  Everything from bickering over spelling and
grammar to arguing about "irony" versus "sarcasm" to wanting to ban
people over a matter of threading.  That's not to say I expect
everyone to see eye-to-eye on everything, but respectfully disagree
and have a little tact.

-- 
Kevin


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Re: Re[4]: 3.5.27

[Avi Yashar]

On 6/17/05, Maxim Masiutin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >>However, I hope that in your list
> >>of "small fixes" you include the Connection Centre bug reports (like
> >>mine, which no one at RL has yet acknowledged) and also work out why
> >>the Message Finder hangs interminably for me when I install OTFE (and
> >>restore from backup) along with other people's reports of the Message
> >>Finder being slow or hanging.

> As soon as these bugs are at https://www.ritlabs.com/bt we will fix them.

Maxim, with all due respect, the Connection Centre bug that I am
talking about has been on bt for well over a month and has not yet
been assigned to anyone for fixing. Indeed, it seems that you are
still unaware of the report, despite my repeated mention of it on this
forum and confirmation of its existence by everyone who actually
managed to reproduce the simple conditions. Please have a look at:

https://www.ritlabs.com/bt/view.php?id=4612

Regarding the OTFE bug, to be quite honest, the way in which my bug
report on the Connection Centre has been ignored by RL has not
encouraged me to file a report on BugTraq. Nevertheless, as a show of
good faith, I have now filed a bug report on the OTFE issue as well.
You can find it at:

https://www.ritlabs.com/bt/view.php?id=4778

-- 
Avi Yashar
Windows XP Pro SP2 and The Bat! Pro (No OTFE) 3.5.26


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Re: Re[2]: 3.5.27

[Tony Boom]

Hello Maxim.

--On 17 June 2005 01:26 +0300 you wrote about Re[2]: 3.5.27:


> We are now doing such fixes like IMAP,


> -- 
> Best regards,
> Maxim Masiutinmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]


Printed out, pinned to the wall as evidence :)

-- 
Tony.

M

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Re: Re[2]: 3.5.27

[Tony Boom]

Hello Paul.

--On 20 June 2005 06:20 -0400 you wrote about Re[2]: 3.5.27:


> I agree! It seems three members of this forum get their recreation
> from this type of stuff

I can't speak for the other two (perhaps if my name was Peter Fjelsten I
could) but The Bat is 100% unusable for me and NOTHING is being done about
it.

Had TB been free I'd have no complaints but I paid for it and it doesn't
work... Would you just sit back and be ripped off? I doubt it!

-- 
Tony.

M

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Re: Re[4]: 3.5.27

[Tony Boom]

Hello Paul.

--On 20 June 2005 11:34 -0400 you wrote about Re[4]: 3.5.27:


> Sorry, your name isn't one of the three!

That's OK. apology accepted.

> Have you asked for a refund?

No, I don't want one. Despite what I've said I still think TB is THE best
email client and I want to use it. I just don't like being invited to
become a beta tester and to then be totally ignored and blanked when I
report something not working in favour of trivia.

If RIT was to just own up and say "We don't know what's wrong and we're not
capable of fixing it" then that would be different. But they just keep
blanking me and denying all knowledge of my requests. A simple explanation
one way or the other would at least stop me living in anticipation of every
new build, the anticipation that maybe there will be something for me
rather than just another spelling mistake fix or pretty icon change.

-- 
Tony.

M

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Re: Re[2]: NML?

[Gary]

Hi Allie,

--On Monday, June 20, 2005 1:49 PM -0500 you wrote in part:

Step 1


- I opened my Inbox and their were 15 messages there. I moved 2 of
them and nothing happened. 


Step 2


I selected the task at the top and hit the 'Delete Task' button. All
tasks disappeared and the connection was dropped.


Step 3


Anyway, when I reconnected, the messages were moved and some of the
messages remarked unread. I then went on and nothing strange has
happened since.


Is this necessary in a client? If you ask it to move mail, it should be 
done without the unnecessary hassles. In your case, a 3 step process.


1 I have to jump through more hoops just to read my mail for the first 
time... as message bodies will not load. Oh, I can read a few at first, 
then maybe the second one in a different thread, on down, I can't read... 
then several emails in different threads, I cannot read. I then have to 
click on another mail folder, then back again, and hope I can read the mail 
that would not load, that is after I find it again. Or, I can compress the 
INBOX, and hope I can read the mail, again, after I find it/they in the 
thread, in several 100 other emails. Or, I can log off the account, log 
back on, and see if I can read mail, or those emails that would not load 
for me previously, if I can find those threads, the first one or two in 
that thread, then right in the middle of it, I can't continue reading the 
thread, but must go through the gyrations above *again and again*, when the 
thread which had my interest, has been lost.


It is as if I start reading an article, have the next page missing, try to 
find it, read part of it, start over, then lose another page, or a page 
from a different article... TB! makes reading IMAP email not pleasurable, 
and is very time consuming.


In short, this is totally ridiculous to go through these processes in order 
to read email. If I can't read my mail, the client does not perform its 
basic function, and I can't read a thread cleanly.



So TB! IMAP is temperamental but useable now.


:) It is absolutely unusable to me. I will not go through these gyrations 
in order to read email.


--
Gary



Current beta is 3.5.30 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
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Re: Re[2]: NML?

[Tony Boom]

Hello Gary.

--On 20 June 2005 14:20 -0500 you wrote about Re: Re[2]: NML?:


> :) It is absolutely unusable to me.

Glad you said that too, people don't believe me. 

> I will not go through these gyrations
> in order to read email.

Me neither, have you tried Mulberry? :)

-- 
Tony.

M

pgpNVfpQ2UENQ.pgp
Description: PGP signature

 Current beta is 3.5.30 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
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Re: Re[2]: NML?

[Gary]

Hi Tony,

--On Monday, June 20, 2005 8:52 PM +0100 you wrote in part:


:) It is absolutely unusable to me.


Glad you said that too, people don't believe me.



I will not go through these gyrations in order to read email.



Me neither, have you tried Mulberry? :)


:rofl:  (really hard)... on occasion...

--
Gary



Current beta is 3.5.30 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
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IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first -
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Re: Re[4]: NML?

[Gary]

Hi Allie,

--On Monday, June 20, 2005 3:23 PM -0500 you wrote in part:


:) It is absolutely unusable to me. I will not go through these gyrations
in order to read email.


For me, the 'gyrations' have now become occasional. I can now use TB! at
work. I've used it without problems 2 days in a row. A first, and I
think using FastMail IMAP has something to do with it.


This is truly amazing, as witness to the problems you and I have had. I 
think I will wait until farther into the next beta cycle to see what 
happens. I just can't spend so much time, perhaps double, triple or more, 
reading email, or have the frustration that I have with it now. Every 
morning, I fire up TB!, first unread message body (usually within the first 
5 emails)... I shut it down and use something that works every time.



I think this may have to do with my mailboxes not being particularly
large  YET!. :)


LOL... probably  Also, what seems to trigger this (at least for me) is 
the addition of any new mail arriving while reading existing new email in 
the INBOX.


--
Gary



Current beta is 3.5.30 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
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Re: Re[6]: NML?

[Gary]

Hi Allie,

--On Monday, June 20, 2005 4:30 PM -0500 you wrote in part:


Right. I think this is the critical difference between our usage
pattern, as I mentioned in a reply to M. Bull.


I think you put it perfectly (as usual)  :)

--
Gary

Have you had your Haldol today?





Current beta is 3.5.30 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
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Re: Re[2]: NML?

[Tony Boom]

Hello Tony.

Just a test, nothing I send seems to be getting to TBBETA when sent from 
the Mac?




--
Tony.

M


pgpqmGWA4GrjK.pgp
Description: PGP signature

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Re: Re[2]: NML?

[Tony Boom]

--On Tuesday, June 21, 2005 2:57 pm +0100 Tony Boom 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Just a test, nothing I send seems to be getting to TBBETA when sent from
the Mac?


Oooops, a spelling mistake in the From: address. See if this one works?

--
Tony

iMac


Current beta is 3.5.30 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
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Re: Re[2]: NML?

[Allie]

Hi Allie,
   On 20/06/2005 04:24 PM -0500, you wrote:

> Things have definitely changed in this area since I'm not seeing
> messages loading just fine when message counts, flagging, moving
> operations have otherwise frozen. Earlier, I again, just experienced
> my TBBETA folder new message count being at 6 with no new messages on
> hitting N to go to the next unread message. I exited the folder and
> went back to it. Same thing. I could load other messages just fine,
> including message bodies not before retrieved. I disconnected and
> reconnected to the server. Only then did TB! undo the problem and
> reasserted itself. I actually had 3 unread messages and they had
> already been read even though they were somehow marked unread again.

The University network seems busy so the Internet feed is slower than
usual. I had to switch back to using Mulberry with that. I have to wait
for too long for a message body to load.

The message body requests are very much stuck in the queue and have to
wait their turn. If the connection is slow, this can be agony.

-- 
Cheers,
   -= Allie M. =-

Everyone hates me because I'm paranoid



 Current beta is 3.5.30 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
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Re: Re[2]: 3.5.30

[Avi Yashar]

On 6/22/05, Maxim Masiutin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >>Appearance of Connection Center: https://www.ritlabs.com/bt/view.php?id=4804

> We've just fixed the above bugs. But one of the bugs was a duplicate.

Hallelujah!

-- 
Avi Yashar
Windows XP Pro SP2 and The Bat! Pro (No OTFE) 3.5.30


 Current beta is 3.5.30 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
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Re: Re[2]: 3.5.30

[Tony Boom]

--On Wednesday, June 22, 2005 10:35 am +0200 Cees <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


sounds just like my love-life ...:rofl2:


Your's too eh?

--
Tony

iMac


Current beta is 3.5.30 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
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Re: Re[2]: 3.5.30

[Avi Yashar]

On 6/22/05, Marek Mikus wrote:
> what parts You are searching? Are You combining more conditions for
> searching?

A simple, one-word text search. For example, "test", "text", "whatever".

-- 
Avi Yashar
Windows XP Pro SP2 and The Bat! Pro (No OTFE) 3.5.30


 Current beta is 3.5.30 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
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Re: Re[2]: 3.5.36

[Clive Taylor]

--On 3/07/2005 20:50 +0100 Goncalo wrote:

I  didn't saw any major complaint though IMAP and EXCHANGE support are
still broken.


Isn't that enough to complain about?

--
Clive Taylor


Current beta is 3.5.36 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
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Re: Re[4]: 3.5.36

[Clive Taylor]

--On 4/07/2005 07:22 +0100 Goncalo wrote:

I don't think so because b30, which is the official release, has those
problems too


So you are saying that since a feature is broken in a previous version and 
not rectified in a newer one, then the problem doesn't matter?


--
Clive Taylor


Current beta is 3.5.36 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
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Re: Re[4]: 3.5.36

[Tony Boom]

--On 4 July 2005 07:22:30 +0100 Goncalo Farias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:



At least this seems more stable and bug free.


I'll have one of whatever you've been drinking.

--

Tony.

i.


Current beta is 3.5.36 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
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Re: Re[6]: 3.5.36

[Clive Taylor]

--On 4/07/2005 21:33 +0100 Goncalo wrote:

You must agree that it has improved over B30, right?


I see no improvements whatsoever in IMAP performance over 3.5.30's 
performance. It is still unusable day-to-day for all the reasons discussed 
in this group.


--
Clive Taylor


Current beta is 3.5.36 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
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Re: Re[6]: 3.5.36

[Clive Taylor]

--On 4/07/2005 21:30 +0100 Goncalo wrote:

I'm  saying the b36 is better than b30 though
still having annoying bugs.


I'm not so concerned about unresolved minor bugs (although others may not 
agree) but in the programme's core performance with IMAP. It still does not 
work satisfactorily enough to use as my main mailer.


--
Clive Taylor


Current beta is 3.5.36 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
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Re: Re[8]: 3.5.36

[Tony Boom]

--On 5 July 2005 07:16:58 +0100 Goncalo Farias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:



But this beta isn't just IMAP fixes, is it?


It was supposed to be yes, at least that was the "promise" made by RL at 
the end of the last beta cycle.


--

Tony.

i.


Current beta is 3.5.36 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
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Re: Re[2]: 3.5.36

[Tony Boom]

--On 5 July 2005 10:09:00 -0400 Vili <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


The word you were looking for is: invention :) So, if it is
different, it can be good or bad...


I've read and reread what I wrote and nowhere can I substitute any word I 
wrote for the word "invention" so you've either lost me or my Klingon 
dictionary is broke!


--

Tony.

i.


Current beta is 3.5.36 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
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Re: Re[2]: 3.5.36

[Tony Boom]

On 5 Jul 2005, at 16:54, Allie Martin wrote:


Ah. I mistook you for being serious. My apologies.


I was being serious. You told me TB caches all it's IMAP mail and  
needs the cache constantly clearing whereas Berry and Mail for  
example don't use a cache.


Or words to that effect?

--

Tony.
M2




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Re: Re[2]: 3.51

[Avi Yashar]

On 7/6/05, Cees <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Het was op woensdag 6 juli 2005 om 15:40 uur dat jij iets schreef over '3.51' 
> :
> AY> My only reservation is about your numbering system. To go from 3.5.36
> AY> to 3.51 is a jump of about 46 version numbers for no obvious reason.
> AY> It seems more logical for this to be a 3.6, which would be 45 version
> AY> numbers less than 3.51.
> 
>  I think you should read it as 3.51.00

That is exactly how I am reading it, Cees. The previous version was a
3.5 derivative. This version is the beginning of a 3.51 series. 3.5
does not mean 3 and a half. It only means that this is a major update
of the 3.x release. There may or may not have been 4 previous major
updates of the 3.x series, because software companies often jump
numbers when a lot of features are added.

But what happens when you reach 3.9? Does that mean that you cannot
have any more major updates of the 3.x release? Does that mean that RL
is obliged to come out with the 4.x series? The answer is no. 3.9 can
be followed by 3.10 and onwards for as long as needed. This is not
mathematics. It is just a versioning system.

As nobody declared the 3.5 release to be 3.50, there is no reason that
I can see to come out with 3.51.

But having said all that, let's face the facts. There are many
different systems of version numbering. The problem with the RL system
is that there is no clear system. The version numbers streak from one
direction to the next, like a bat out of h**l.

-- 
Avi Yashar
Windows XP Pro SP2 and The Bat! Pro (No OTFE) 3.51


 Current beta is 3.5.36 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
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Re: Re[4]: 3.51

[Tony Boom]

--On 6 July 2005 12:47:57 -0400 Vili <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


User  clicks  on  a  mail,  download  it.  Dont use the local cache...
Problem solved.


Here, here. I think they should ditch the spooling method as well, I think 
that's where most of the problem lies, but then again, who am I to say.


--

Tony.

i.


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Re: Re[4]: 3.51

[Avi Yashar]

On 7/6/05, Allie Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 06, 2005, at 09:18 AM, Avi Yashar wrote:
> 
> > But what happens when you reach 3.9? Does that mean that you cannot
> > have any more major updates of the 3.x release? Does that mean that
> > RL is obliged to come out with the 4.x series? The answer is no. 3.9
> > can be followed by 3.10 and onwards for as long as needed. This is
> > not mathematics. It is just a versioning system.
> 
> 3.1 cannot follow 3.9.

Allie, I said 3.10, not 3.1. Please see Alexander Kunz's explanation.
I believe he said it better than I did.

The point is that version numbers are not purely mathematical. Indeed,
some times they include a combination of numeric and alphabetic
characters. For example, 3.5b1 would be 3.5 Beta 1 and 3.5c1 would be
3.5 Release Candidate 1. When beta testing is complete, the FCS (or
production-level release) would be 3.5. You aren't going backwards by
dropping those extra numbers (as would be the case mathematically) -
it is just that those extra characters define a stage of development.

So my point was only that 3.5 is not at all the same as 3.50. That is
true in mathematics, but it is not necessarily so with respect to
software versioning.

> 3.9 is a larger number than 3.1. I hope you meant, 3.9.1 ...3.9.2 etc.
> or 3.91 .. 3.92 .. 3.92.01 ... 3.92.05 ... 3.93 etc.

No, I meant what I said. See above.

> > As nobody declared the 3.5 release to be 3.50, there is no reason that
> > I can see to come out with 3.51.
> 
> LOL.

For once, no humor intended. :-(

> 3.5 = 3.50 = 3.500 = 3.5000 = 3.5000
> 
> Usually, we drop the zeros since they don't provide any added meaning
> as such and after-all, they're the same.

Again, this is not pure mathematics.

> This is as semantic a criticism as they come. You've just defined the
> meaning of semantic.

I don't think so. I am arguing for a logical and consistent system of
version numbering with TB.
 
> > But having said all that, let's face the facts. There are many
> > different systems of version numbering. The problem with the RL
> > system is that there is no clear system. The version numbers streak
> > from one direction to the next, like a bat out of h**l.
> 
> LOL!!!

At last, we are on the same page! :-)

-- 
Avi Yashar
Windows XP Pro SP2 and The Bat! Pro (No OTFE) 3.51


 Current beta is 3.51 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
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Re: Re[2]: 3.51

[Tony Boom]

--On 6 July 2005 12:11:08 -0500 Allie Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


In the IMAP fine tune, there's an option to test the IMAP connection.
What happens when you run the test? The test button is beside the
connection number setting.


It starts counting down from 30 to 1, tells me everything is OK and then 
self destructs.



Additionally, I have my number of connections set to 4. I note it not
to be any different from 2. Why have yours at 10? Have you tried 2
connections?


It always was 2, I changed it to 10 earlier today to see what would happen.

I've given up on it now totally. It works but it's just *so much effort* 
trying to keep on top of it, keeping up with it and trying to understand 
what it's doing is just too tiring. It's now telling me half my mailboxes 
don't exist even though it has them in the folder tree complete with the 
correct message count. It tells me I have 80 unread messages when there are 
only 7 in the folder, it tell me it can't flag messages when all I want to 
do is read the message, never said anything about flagging the bloody 
things.


I'm not sure if you have the Malibu advert over there, it's about a melon 
stall in Jamaica, I won't go into all the details but buying a melon 
becomes a big ordeal and the poor 90 year old chap on the bike sums it all 
up by saying "I just want to buy a melon". Well...


I just want to read email !!

I think that advert sums up the whole Bat experience for me. Anyone in 
England who has seen the advert will know exactly what I mean. If I could 
capture it as an MPEG or AVI file I'd put it up for you.


--

Tony.

i.


Current beta is 3.51 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
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Re: Re[6]: 3.51

[Tony Boom]

--On 6 July 2005 14:02:36 -0400 Vili <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


The  method  RL  would  like  to walk is a more painful one, but if it
works, it should be faster. Once, I wrote a software, it made a search
in  a  protein  database  in 1.5 sec. I managed to optimize the method
(through  many  painful  bugs),  and  now  it  makes it in 0.0 sec :))
Something  like  20  msec.  It  was  worth it because we moved to more
complicated searches and the ca. 100x lower search time made enable to
look for more chemical changes on the proteins using the same search
time we had before with the non-optimized search.



Wow!

I have absolutely no idea what you just said :)

--

Tony.

i.


Current beta is 3.51 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
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Re: Re[6]: 3.51

[Tony Boom]

--On 6 July 2005 13:28:12 -0500 Allie Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


3.10 is less than 3.9

3.1 is less than 3.9


So if the bus comes at 3.10 and you get to the bus stop at 3.9 how many 
oranges will be left in the basket after you ate 1?


--

Tony.

i.


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Re: Re[6]: 3.51

[Avi Yashar]

On 7/6/05, Allie Martin wrote:
> With all the sudden jumps or changes in TB! version numbering that's
> intended and not a typo, there has always been a mathematical increase
> in the numbers.

That is not exactly correct. If you recall, 3.5.30 was followed by
3.5.0.31 (or something like that). And it was not the first time this
has happened. So I am only proposing that a clear and consistent
system be adopted.

Quite frankly, I was not expecting that 3.5 would be followed by 3.51.
This took me by surprise. My point is that if RL considers this to be
just a minor improvement, then they should change the numbering in the
third set of digits. Nothing is stopping RL from releasing 3.5.38. Why
must RL go from 3.5 to 3.51? It makes no sense to me. Like I said,
this is not mathematics. Either change the third group of digits or go
from 3.5 to 3.6.

> If you've installed the latest MSI, open the readme file in the
> installation directory and follow the version numbering from TB!'s
> earliest versions. There has always been a mathematical progression in
> version numbering.

Yes and no. Take for example the series: 1.1 to 1.101 to 1.14 to 1.15.
Now that might be mathematical, but surely you can see that the 1.101
stands out and is confusing. Why couldn't it have been 1.11 or 1.12 or
1.13?

> Proposing that 3.10 follow 3.9 would certainly take them way off
> course with how they've been doing their numbering.

I don't think so. It is just a different way of looking at that
numbering. Perhaps the main exception would be the peculiar 1.101 that
I mentioned above. But, looking at the readme file, I see several
styles of version numbering:
   1.xx.xx
   1.xx Build
   1.xx Preview
   
> > The point is that version numbers are not purely mathematical.
> 
> This may indeed be the case for only a few apps. However, TB!'s
> version numbering has always followed a mathematical progression.

Like I said, that is just one way of looking at things - and not
really the most significant way of looking at things, in my opinion.
But there need not be a conflict here. The simple solution would have
been to number this release as 3.5.38 or 3.6. That would have
satisfied both of us.

> Again, I'm speaking of TB!'s version numbering since its first release
> and not for apps in general. So, with their system, they can follow
> 3.5.36 with 3.51.

Again, what system? The system of numbering has changed many times.

> > So my point was only that 3.5 is not at all the same as 3.50. That is
> > true in mathematics, but it is not necessarily so with respect to
> > software versioning.
> 
> With regards to TB!'s versioning system, it could indeed mean the
> same.

Allie, you see a system where I see a hodgepodge. I think you give too
much importance to this weak mathematical thread (that RL has not been
consistent in following anyway... as you well know... 3.5.0.31 being a
recent example).

> > I don't think so. I am arguing for a logical and consistent system of
> > version numbering with TB.
> 
> ... and then propose that *for TB!*, 3.10 could follow 3.9?

Yes... but do you really think it will get that far before RL hits us
up for another donation? ;-)

-- 
Avi Yashar
Windows XP Pro SP2 and The Bat! Pro (No OTFE) 3.51


 Current beta is 3.51 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
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IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first -
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Re: Re[4]: 3.51

[Tony Boom]

--On 6 July 2005 13:53:26 -0500 Allie Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Your problems certainly make for food for thought. The question is how
to debug the problem. Your debug logs are likely where the questions
will be answered.


Well 9Val has had them for the past month. He might still be correcting the 
spelling mistakes though :)


--

Tony.

i.


Current beta is 3.51 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
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Re: Re[2]: 3.51

[Avi Yashar]

On 7/6/05, Allie Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 06, 2005, at 01:48 PM, Manuel Breitfeld
> wrote:
> 
> > Without having read the whole thread, I just want to point out, that it's 
> > not
> > always that mathematical and therefore logical as you did point out.
> > CVS's numbering system for instance goes like this 1.1 ... 1.9  1.10 
> > 
> > 1.19  1.20.
> > That's the "opposite" of the way you described.
> 
> I've been referring to TB!'s version numbering and not version
> numbering in general.
> 
> TB!'s version numbering has never really followed the CVS numbering
> method. It has always been a mathematical progression.

Again, Allie, that is not entirely true. 3.5.0.31 does not
mathematically follow 3.5.30. And it really makes little sense to
suggest that TB has had any kind of consistent versioning system. So,
when TB is often quick to champion ISO, why not accept - or at least
adhere to - one simple and consistent versioning system such as the
CVS numbering system? Sometimes you just have to reevaluate and change
your system. After redoing the GUI, why not adopt a clear and
comprehensible versioning system? Is anyone or anything stopping RL?
Will it cause their sales to decrease? Will it cause people to lose
faith in the program? Sorry, Allie, but I just don't follow why you
are so dogmatic on this point.

-- 
Avi Yashar
Windows XP Pro SP2 and The Bat! Pro (No OTFE) 3.51


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Re: Re[8]: 3.51

[Tony Boom]

--On 6 July 2005 21:00:34 +0200 Cees <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


 Shhh don't say anything, I know that one!

 
 ONE CHICKEN!
 

 :)


No, wrong. It's a trick question, the bus doesn't actually come until 3.15, 
so the answer can't possibly be a chicken.

--

Tony.

i.


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Re: Re[2]: 3.51

[Avi Yashar]

On 7/6/05, Allie Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 06, 2005, at 02:02 PM, Manuel Breitfeld
> wrote:
> 
> > The effect that I would recommend the following numbering system doesn't
> > change anything, however I just want to write it down. ;) I would recommend
> > to have a major number and two minor numbers separated by a dot.
> v3.50 ->> v3.51 -> ... -> v3.60 -> ... -> v4.00 -> v4.01
> 
> This would be for release versions, right.
> 
> The beta's could follow the old 3.60 beta/xx numbering or the more
> recent v3.51.xx numbering.
> 
> However, if there's a quick fix release version to this v3.51, then
> this would force RIT to release 3.51.01 or something similar as a full
> release version.

That works for me. My only point is that the system should be
coherent. The current approach is largely haphazard. Maybe there is a
mathematical link in the numbering system, but why should users have
to struggle to figure it out? Let's make it clear and hence friendly.

-- 
Avi Yashar
Windows XP Pro SP2 and The Bat! Pro (No OTFE) 3.51


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Re: Re[4]: 3.51

[Avi Yashar]

On 7/6/05, Allie Martin wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 06, 2005, at 02:15 PM, Avi Yashar wrote:
> 
> > Again, Allie, that is not entirely true. 3.5.0.31 does not
> > mathematically follow 3.5.30.
> 
> That's a famous mistake that was admitted as such. This is why I said,
> barring the typos and admitted errors, TB!'s versioning has followed a
> mathematical progression.

Famous or not, it wasn't the first time that it happened.

> Have you checked the read me file

Yes, I did. If you remember, in an earlier message, I gave you a
progression of versions that had a very odd number in the middle. That
came from the readme file.

-- 
Avi Yashar
Windows XP Pro SP2 and The Bat! Pro (No OTFE) 3.51


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Re: Re[4]: 3.51

[Avi Yashar]

On 7/6/05, Allie Martin wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 06, 2005, at 02:15 PM, Avi Yashar wrote:
> 
> > Sorry, Allie, but I just don't follow why you
> > are so dogmatic on this point.
> 
> BTW, where did this come from??
> 
> You were the one making the semantic comment. I have to counter it
> with similar semantic commentary.

Allie, you are not obliged to "counter" everything I say. That concept
is not just dogmatic but also contrary.

There is a saying in the Vedas that I like:

Yuktiyuktamupa'deyam vacanam'ba'laka'dapi
Anyam' trn'amiva tyajyamapuktam' padmajanmana'

"The rational words spoken by a child should be given importance, but
the irrational utterrings of even the Creator, Brahma Himself, should
be rejected as a straw."

-- 
Avi Yashar
Windows XP Pro SP2 and The Bat! Pro (No OTFE) 3.51


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Re: Re[6]: 3.51

[Tony Boom]

--On 6 July 2005 14:20:45 -0500 Allie Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Don't forget to zip it!!!


You zip it, I'll talk all I want :)

I'll send them to you... Er, what is it I have to do again?

--

Tony.

i.


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Re: Re[4]: 3.51

[Tony Boom]

--On 6 July 2005 14:26:07 -0500 Allie Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


You were the one making the semantic comment. I have to counter it
with similar semantic commentary.


There you go see. If you was to use a Mac you wouldn't need a virus scanner 
at all.


--

Tony.

i.


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Re: Re[2]: 3.51

[Tony Boom]

--On 6 July 2005 22:32:54 +0300 Maxim Masiutin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


That's because you already have The Bat! on your hard disk,


Why won't you answer me? I've asked a few very on topic, very relevant 
questions and I get no answer at all.


No need to answer that, I already know why.

--

Tony.

i.


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Re: Re[8]: 3.51

[Tony Boom]

--On 6 July 2005 14:50:03 -0500 Allie Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


In the file put:


I'll have a go tomorrow, it's getting late now.

--

Tony.

i.


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Re: Re[8]: 3.51

[Avi Yashar]

On 7/6/05, Allie Martin wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 06, 2005, at 02:01 PM, Avi Yashar wrote:
> > Yes... but do you really think it will get that far before RL hits
> > us up for another donation? ;-)
> 
> So is that where you're coming from??

Allie, if that were where I was coming from, would I be arguing for RL
to increase it version number to 3.6 instead of 3.51... knowing that
RL might well be stuck in the same mathematical mud as you? I think
not. Believe it or not, my only interest in raising this point is to
make TB a better and more friendly product.

-- 
Avi Yashar
Windows XP Pro SP2 and The Bat! Pro (No OTFE) 3.51


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Re: Re[2]: Part.ATT???

[Jay Walker]

On 8/4/05, Vili wrote:
> Could you export and send me in private the mail that has this
> part.att problem?

Not this time, Vili. I don't share personal email on principle. Think
of it as a Catholic priest sort of thing. But if I get something less
sensitive, I'll pass it on.

-- 
jaywalker
Windows XP Pro SP2 and The Bat! Pro (No OTFE) 3.51.10


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Re: Re-Threading fails

[Roelof Otten]

Hallo Alexander,

On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 12:46:52 +0200GMT (24-9-2005, 12:46 +0200, where I
live), you wrote:

ASK> has anyone else occasional problems with the re-threading? I seem to be
ASK> unable to "attach" a reply to a message that has no message ID. Maybe other
ASK> factors apply, I don't know.

Never had any, but my server inserts a Message-ID when it's missing.
So I tested it.
I exported a message to .msg
deleted the msg-id with a text editor
imported it in tbbeta
tried to re-thread your message to it and it didn't work

re-threaded your message to another message (that went fine),
tried to re-thread your message afterwards to the one without msg-id
and your message surfaced without a thread


Then I copied the same message, but with msg-id to tbbeta
and the threading went just fine,
so I guess the problem is the msg-id.


ASK> (Outlook 2003, when sending directly via SMTP and not over Exchange server,
ASK> creates no message ID)

Never noticed that, but now you mention it, it does so indeed.

-- 
Groetjes, Roelof

That was then, this is now.

The Bat! 3.61.07 Echo (Beta)
Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2
1 pop3 account, server on LAN
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Re: Re-Threading fails

[Alexander S. Kunz]

Hello Roelof Otten & everyone else,

on 24-Sep-2005 at 23:46 you (Roelof Otten) wrote:

> Then I copied the same message, but with msg-id to tbbeta
> and the threading went just fine,
> so I guess the problem is the msg-id.

Thank you for your tests.

IIRC correct the message-ID isn't absolutely mandatory, but on the other
hand, it is of course vital for threading. But then again, the re-threading
was implemented for messages that fail normal threading. I wonder what to
do now :-) ...report it as a bug, or curse at Microsoft?

-- 
Best regards,
 Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de - ICQ 238153981)

Military justice is to justice what military music is to music. --
Groucho Marx



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Re: Re-Threading fails

[Roelof Otten]

Hallo Alexander,

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 00:09:44 +0200GMT (25-9-2005, 0:09 +0200, where I
live), you wrote:

ASK> Thank you for your tests.

You're welcome.

ASK> IIRC correct the message-ID isn't absolutely mandatory,

RFC2822 says that it should be inserted by the mta when the mua
doesn't do so. That's rather mandatory, isn't it?

ASK> but on the other hand, it is of course vital for threading. But
ASK> then again, the re-threading was implemented for messages that
ASK> fail normal threading. I wonder what to do now :-) ...

That's easy.

ASK> report it as a bug, or curse at Microsoft?

Both. And complain with your ISP that their smtp server doesn't
include a message-id.

-- 
Groetjes, Roelof

Blessed our young they will inherit our national debt.

The Bat! 3.61.07 Echo (Beta)
Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2
1 pop3 account, server on LAN
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Re: Re-Threading fails

[Alexander S. Kunz]

Hello Roelof Otten & everyone else,

on 25-Sep-2005 at 00:29 you (Roelof Otten) wrote:

ASK>> IIRC correct the message-ID isn't absolutely mandatory,

> RFC2822 says that it should be inserted by the mta when the mua
> doesn't do so. That's rather mandatory, isn't it?

OK, I see.


ASK>> report it as a bug, or curse at Microsoft?

> Both.

:)

> And complain with your ISP that their smtp server doesn't include a
> message-id.

If I understand this correctly, any mta that finds a message that does not
contain a msg-id should add one. The problematic message I found went from
a friends computer with Outlook2003 thru the smtp of his freemail provider,
to a listmailer, then to my inbox. That makes three mta's that did not add
the msg-id. Looks like a lot of work. :-)

-- 
Best regards,
 Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de - ICQ 238153981)

The first thing every child learns is that he is not the entire
universe. -- Robert Silverberg



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Re: Re-Threading fails

[Alexander S. Kunz]

Hello Roelof Otten & everyone else,

on 25-Sep-2005 at 00:29 you (Roelof Otten) wrote:

ASK>> IIRC correct the message-ID isn't absolutely mandatory,

> RFC2822 says that it should be inserted by the mta when the mua
> doesn't do so. That's rather mandatory, isn't it?

Another day, another message...

What I find in RFC 2822 is:

.-
| Though optional, every message SHOULD have a "Message-ID:" field.
|Furthermore, reply messages SHOULD have "In-Reply-To:" and
|"References:" fields as appropriate, as described below.
`-

Can you point me to the exact location of your findings about this? I have
a similar topic open in the support forum of my domain/mail provider, would
be nice to point them to the article. :-)

I furthermore wonder how TB should behave when replying to messages without
msg-id, especially if the message without msg-id already IS a reply, and
does contain an "in-reply-to" header (thats what Outlook 2003 does, can you
believe it?).

As it is now, TB's picks the "in-reply-to" header and adds the content to
the "references" header list - but it can't set a new "in-reply-to" header,
because there's no msg-id to refer to. So, the threading information of the
"references" list is broken, and viewing threads by references leads to a
wrongly sorted message tree. Shouldn't it be omitted altogether?


-- 
Best regards,
 Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de - ICQ 238153981)

If you see a man approaching you with the obvious intention of doing
you good, you should run for your life.



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Re: Re-Threading fails

[Alexander S. Kunz]

Hello,

this is a pretty old thread but I stumbled across the problem just now
again...

on 24-Sep-2005 at 11:46 I wrote:

> has anyone else occasional problems with the re-threading? I seem to be
> unable to "attach" a reply to a message that has no message ID. Maybe other
> factors apply, I don't know.

I've filed a bug report: https://www.ritlabs.com/bt/view.php?id=5294

Thanks for looking. :)

-- 
Best regards,
 Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de - ICQ 238153981)

All you need in life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is
sure. -- Mark Twain



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Re: Re[2]: IMAP

[Curtis]

--On Friday, November 25, 2005 10:25 AM -0600 Mike Rourke
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I am beginning to have serious doubts about the future of IMAP on
> TB!, I really don't think it will happen... ever. Every IMAP client I
> can think of (that works) had IMAP built-in from the beginning. The
> IMAP clients that don't work too hot (TB!, Poco, Courier, Pegasus,
> Eudora), all started life as a POP client, IMAP was added later and
> it's broke in some way or another.

I find this new release encouraging. I think they're close.

I've now using Becky! at home and Mulberry at work. I've tried
Thunderbird, MozillaMail, Poco Mail, Pegasus Mail, Eudora, Gemini and
OperaMail and:

..if TB!'s IMAP functionality were to remain as is, and this
functionality made to work *reliably* and quickly, they'd have the best
IMAP client being developed now. Mulberry still is the best, but it's
no longer being developed. Even if TB! were to be reliable and fast,
Mulberry would be the technically better IMAP client because of more
extensive protocol support. However, most, including myself, do not
need all the IMAP protocol support to be getting along nicely. So TB!
would become my hands down choice if it were to just work well without
the many glitches that occur. So many glitches that make you wonder
what is happening. Is it the server? Is it TB!? Is it the connection??
Is it a problem with my system? Is it a problem with my message base
cache? Is it a problem with my TB! configuration? I was getting tired
of this.

When using Becky! and/or Mulberry, if I'm having trouble, it's either
the connection or the servers... simple. That actually makes the
problems very few then and much easier to trouble shoot. I can just do
my stuff without the headaches of wondering what could be wrong when
something isn't right.

-- 
 -=Curtis=-
 PGPKey: http://rsakey.aimlink.name
 -=-=-
Show me a sane man. I'll cure him for you.


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Re: Re[2]: Review

[Kevin J. Menard, Jr.]

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:22:31 -0400, Ethan J. Mings
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> A stability period does not mean that development and work stops.  It
> simply means that there is a definite period of time before a new beta
> series starts.  My experience here is as soon as a "release version is
> out" the beta is hot the heals.  I just think a stability period would
> help.

I don't follow you here.  No one is forcing you to use the betas.  If
you don't care for the frequency of the cycles (once again, I don't
follow your rationale here), then you can just use the release
version.

> For example, one month for everyone to really catch their breath, plan
> the next beta series and let people know the purpose and objectives.

Generally, this has been the case.  Whenever 9Val releases the first
beta in a series, he indicates what the beta series is aiming for.  I
suspect the planning for the next beta series is coincidental with the
development of the current beta series.  They don't need to be
mutually exclusive things.

-- 
Kevin


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Re: Re[2]: gmail

[Kevin J. Menard, Jr.]

I have 6 invites I'm not doing anything with, and I believe my
girlfriend has 6 shes not doing anything with.  So, if anyone wants
one, just reply to me in private.

-- 
Kevin


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Re: Re[4]: 1.53l

[Michael Teichmann]

Hi Leslie,

LC> They're not necessarily bad, but HTML written emails have been known for
LC> their security risks... :(
security issues arise from scripts (JavaScript, VBScript) embedded in HTML
mails, not from HTML itself nor CSS.

The RIT guys haven't put scripting support into their HTML engine for
exactly that reason and I hope they won't change their minds.

Regards
Michael

-- 
The Bat! 1.53d
Windows NT 4.0 Build 1381 Service Pack 5

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Re: Re-direct Behavior

[Richard M. Newman]

Hello Frank,

On Saturday, March 09, 2002, 6:02:34 PM, you wrote:
F> Look at the From: when Forwarding and when Re-directing. See the
F> difference?
   Yep. It seems to perform the way I thought it should. I can't
   reproduce it "incorrect" performance again.
-- 
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 Richard

 Richard M. Newman
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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under Windows 98 4 Build   A 
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-
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Re: Re-direct Behavior

[Richard M. Newman]

Hello Frank,

On Saturday, March 09, 2002, 6:02:34 PM, you wrote:
>> Re-direct seems to be nothing more than a forward without the notation
>> of "FWD:" in the subject. It seems to me that redirect should behave
>> like "Bounce" in PocoMail.
F> Look at the From: when Forwarding and when Re-directing. See the
F> difference?
   BUT . . . the reply to becomes "my" address and not the original
   senders address.

   To me that is strange behavior when a want to redirect it so the
   person to whom I redirected can reply directly to the original
   sender.

   Is that a bug, or just strange (by my standards) behavior?
-- 
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 Richard

 Richard M. Newman
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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-
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Re: Re-direct Behavior

[Ottar Grimstad]

Hello Richard,

Monday, March 11, 2002, 7:06:05 PM, you wrote to TBBETA:

RMN>  To me that is strange behavior when a want to redirect it so the
RMN>  person to whom I redirected can reply directly to the original
RMN>  sender.

RMN>Is that a bug, or just strange (by my standards) behavior?

I agree with this. I was very confused the first time I found out that
redirect includes a Reply-To: to my address, not the person the
original message originated from. Now I have made the Reply-To header
always visible so I can correct this manually, as I have fount no
template or meny choice for changing this behaviour permanently.

-- 
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  Ottar Grimstad, Norway
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://home.online.no/~ottgrims
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Re: Re-direct Behavior

[Günther Eisele]

Hei,

Richard M. Newman wrote:

>BUT . . . the reply to becomes "my" address and not the original
>senders address.

>To me that is strange behavior when a want to redirect it so the
>person to whom I redirected can reply directly to the original
>sender.

>Is that a bug, or just strange (by my standards) behavior?

This is of course a bug. I reported this bug (#107) and I thought it
was fixed - I can't reproduce it at the moment.

Can someone confirm it?

-- 
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Automatic virus scanning with F-PROT, ROT13 and a list of changes in 1.54:
http://www.guenther-eisele.de/bat/index_e.htm
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Re: Re-direct Behavior

[Ottar Grimstad]

Hello Peter,

Monday, March 11, 2002, 8:52:07 PM, you wrote to TBBETA:

PP> May the ones with having REply-To set to their address have a look
PP> if there's a Reply-To given in their account settings? Mine are
PP> empty and this is 'Reply-To' too when redirecting. In the few
PP> cases it was non-empty the original 'Reply-To' was taken.

Yes I had a ReplyTo in the account settings, and have now removed it.
Still I do not think that TheBat! should use this ReplyTo when
redirecting.

-- 
Best regards,
  Ottar Grimstad, Norway
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://home.online.no/~ottgrims
Using The Bat! 1.54 Beta/45 on Windows 98 version 4,10


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Re: Re-direct Behavior

[Richard M. Newman]

Hello Ottar,

On Monday, March 11, 2002, 4:11:12 PM, you wrote:
O> Still I do not think that TheBat! should use this ReplyTo when
O> redirecting.
   Of course it should not use your ReplyTo.
-- 
Best,
 Richard

 Richard M. Newman
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Re-direct Behavior

[Peter Palmreuther]

Hello Richard,

On Tuesday, March 12, 2002 at 12:40:53 AM you wrote in
msgid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (at least in part):

O>> Still I do not think that TheBat! should use this ReplyTo when
O>> redirecting.

RMN>Of course it should not use your ReplyTo.

That's a philosophical question :-)

I do in fact understand your both POV, nevertheless I don't know if
this can be answered this easy.
You explicitly told TB! to use a 'Reply-To' address by entering it
into account properties. And 'Redirect' is not a 'fake e-mail and
pretend this is coming from somebody else' function, it's an easy way
to forward an e-mail to a third party leaving it at most intact.
If there is an original 'Reply-To' header it will be taken, so message
will not be altered in this matter.

So you see: there are other points of view and they are not false 'by
default' ... Which behavior is the correct one I don't want to decide,
there are too much consequences to have an eye on :-)

BTW: having set a 'Reply-To' identical to the 'From' does not make
sense at all, regardless if you're redirecting or 'normal sending', so
in most cases it ain't necessary to even fill this field out. And I'd
prefer if RIT would not automatically fill it out if I enter or change
some data in 'From' :-/
-- 
Regards
Peter Palmreuthermailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(The Bat! v1.54 Beta/47 on Windows 2000 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 2)

As Will Rogers would have said, "There is no such things as a free variable."


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Re: Re-direct Behavior

[Günther Eisele]

Hei,

Richard M. Newman wrote:

>Of course it should not use your ReplyTo.

[x] you're right. And Peter not (sorry for that ;-)). IMHO. Of course.

-- 
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Re: Re-direct Behavior

[Günther Eisele]

Hei,

Richard M. Newman wrote:

>Of course it should not use your ReplyTo.

[x] you're right. And Peter not (sorry for that ;-)). IMHO. Of course.

 this is forwarded by me (Peter) I wonder if you can see on
 it (F9) the reply to:  tbbeta@etc

-- 
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Re: Re-direct Behavior

[Günther Eisele]

Hei,

Peter "address forger" Palmreuther wrote:

>  this is forwarded by me (Peter) I wonder if you can see on
>  it (F9) the reply to:  tbbeta@etc

Of course. To test this, it is not necessary to write a text in a mail
which has my from address. Can I assume that this is the first and last
time you did this? Furthermore, I don't see why this test is necessary.
The list mails contain a reply-to header. TB! obviously just produces
wrong replyto headers when it is not set by the user.

-- 
Regards, Günther ¤I$¤£¤
Automatic virus scanning with F-PROT, ROT13 and a list of changes in 1.54:
http://www.guenther-eisele.de/bat/index_e.htm
TheBat! 1.54 Beta/47, Windows 2000 5.0


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Re: [real] Re: Search...

[Quin Selman]

Hello Martin,

Wednesday, August 27, 2003, 11:28:02 AM, you wrote:

>> I want a "search all accounts"-button... What was wrong with the old
>> search?

> CTRL-Click will help...

> But see whole thread starting with
  mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

I don't have much experience using the id numbers. I've only found the
messages they refer to when I've previously saved them on my local
drive. But I don't save many messages. Unless I think I'll have to
refer to them, I delete them after they are read. Is there
somewhere else, some archive, where I can find the message and thread
you refer to or am I just out of luck?


-- 
Best regards,
 Quin



 Current beta is 2.0b4 | "Using TBBETA" information:
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Re: [real] Re: Search...

[Greg Strong]

Hello Quin,

> I don't have much experience using the id numbers.

Well if you did save them, then clicking on a ID # preceded by 'mid:'
would take you to the message.

> Is there somewhere else, some archive, where I can find the message
> and thread you refer to or am I just out of luck?

Just follow the URL on the bottom of every list message.

-- 
Best regards,

Greg Strong

Using The Bat! v2.0 Beta/5 on Windows XP 5.1 Build  2600
Service Pack 1



 Current beta is 2.0b4 | "Using TBBETA" information:
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Re: Suggestion re. plugins:

[Allen]

FG> Hello tbbeta

FG>   Having spent some time now with Outlook and their Bayesian anti-spam
FG>   plug-in I've come to appreciate just how useful it is to have a
FG>   column in the message list labelled "%Spam"

FG>   I can see no way of adding an equivalent indicator in TB!. The
FG>   BayesIT! plugin has to resort to a complex log file to give the user
FG>   any feedback on the learning / ranking process. Messy (and doesn't
FG>   currently work!)

FG>   As a suggestion, I'd like to see (at some future date) the
FG>   possibility of plug-in writers being able to add "user defined"
FG>   property, which would be displayable in the message list columns. I
FG>   guess it could be mapped to a X-header appended to the message by
FG>   the filter??..

FG>   .. but lets not get distracted by an implementation detail. Do
FG>   others like the idea?

I like the idea.  I just use popfile, as I haven't had the time to try
to  figure  out  the  bayes  plugin, and have color groups assigned to
different  message classifications.  Having the plugin able to express
itself directly through TB would, indeed, be handy.

Allen



  


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  |
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   --



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Re: Re[2]: OT Couth Mary [Re: 3.5.30 MSI]

[Avi Yashar]

On 6/26/05, Ben Allen wrote:
> Friday, June 24, 2005, 5:21:51 AM, Avi wrotened:
> 
> AY> So, if we are going to be consistent here, then maybe the New
> AY> Testament should be a banned book so far as this forum is concerned,
> AY> because there is so much
> AY> "dirty language" in it.
> 
> Please I dislike reading racist and sexist Literature.

I feel the same. The language is "bad" and the philosophy is... well,
let's just say dangerous... But I don't want to offend anyone's
religious sentiment. My point was simply that it is absurd to suggest
that only words like "hell" and "damn" are to be banned on this forum
and then tolerate words like "schmuck" and expressions like "get your
finger out" and "Oh, f..k" or repeated postings that serve no
constructive purpose but only flame another list member. It's not good
enough to include the line "please don't feel singled out" in a
moderator message when in fact the moderator is clearly singling
someone out.

-- 
Avi Yashar
Windows XP Pro SP2 and The Bat! Pro (No OTFE) 3.5.31


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Re: Re[4]: OT Couth Mary [Re: 3.5.30 MSI]

[Avi Yashar]

On 6/26/05, Ben Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> AY> On 6/26/05, Ben Allen wrote:
> >> Friday, June 24, 2005, 5:21:51 AM, Avi wrotened:
> >>
> >> AY> So, if we are going to be consistent here, then maybe the New
> >> AY> Testament should be a banned book so far as this forum is concerned,
> >> AY> because there is so much
> >> AY> "dirty language" in it.
> >>
> >> Please I dislike reading racist and sexist Literature.
> 
> AY> I feel the same. The language is "bad" and the philosophy is... well,
> AY> let's just say dangerous... But I don't want to offend anyone's
> AY> religious sentiment.
> 
> I was simply expressing my belief that the book has flaws, not wishing
> to attack either religion that has been based on the book as a whole.

Agreed.

> AY>  My  point was simply that it is absurd to suggest that only words
> AY> like  "hell"  and  "damn"  are to be banned on this forum and then
> AY> tolerate  words  like  "schmuck"  and  expressions  like "get your
> AY> finger  out"  and  "Oh..."  or  repeated  postings  that  serve no
> AY> constructive purpose but only flame another list member.
> 
> The  way I was always taught is that you have to resort to a so called
> curse  word  in  any  situation  it  is  a  flaw in your own reasoning
> process.  Plus  there  is  the  context  which  is usually taken in to
> account.  If  someone is directing these words against someone then it
> is wrong and offensive. It is also a matter for personal taste.

Agreed.

> AY> It's not good
> AY> enough to include the line "please don't feel singled out" in a
> AY> moderator message when in fact the moderator is clearly singling
> AY> someone out.
> 
> If  that  person has broken the list rules then they require reminding
> of  said  rules  but the mods are usually remind the whole list of the
> rules  in order to stop repeated breaking of the rules by other people
> apart from those who are being trouted. So normally it is not just the
> person that the trout is being flung at that is being told.

Agreed with reservation. I think this can only work if the moderators
are unbiased in respect to whom they single out as whipping boys.

-- 
Avi Yashar
Windows XP Pro SP2 and The Bat! Pro (No OTFE) 3.5.31


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Re: Re[6]: OT Couth Mary [Re: 3.5.30 MSI]

[Avi Yashar]

On 6/27/05, hggdh wrote:
> > Agreed with reservation. I think this can only work if the moderators
> > are unbiased in respect to whom they single out as whipping boys.
> ...
> Depending on one's upbringing, some words will be either rude or
> blatantly offensive, while a different culture may consider the same
> words nothing special. This makes moderating an international list
> extremely complex, and almost impossible to be completely fair. This
> is probably where we can plug this un-natural thing called courtesy...
> and the knowledge that upbringing does not need to be coherent.
> 
> In other words, fairness in  moderation is a lost cause :-)
>
> Any one doing moderation will eventually find it so, or has already
> found it so. All we need is time.

Hggdh, courtesy is fine, but I disagree that it is impossible to be
fair. Yes, it is difficult to moderate international lists like
tbbeta. I know that for a fact, because I also happen to moderate at
least 5 international lists (pardon me, but I lose count).

Okay, every situation is different, and tbbeta is indeed quite
complex. But that does not diminish my point. I know that mistakes are
made. And I know that everyone has different likes and dislikes,
including likes and dislikes regarding people. But a good moderator
must be like a judge - either s/he sets aside personal likes and
dislikes or s/he must recuse herself/himself. And, even then, should a
mistake occur (as is eventually somewhat inevitable), then a moderator
must realize that s/he is just a human being. At that time s/he must
come down off her/his elevated seat and humbly apologize. An apology
at such times actually enhances her/his prestige rather than
diminishes it.

> But, let's move on to bias. Every moderator is biased. This is no big
> deal -- we are *all* biased, one way or another --, see above. The
> difference is understanding that one is biased, and trying to find out
> if the inbred/developed bias is acceptable (to one's ethical being).
> 
> So, yes, Marck is biased. So are you. So am I. Yet I do not find
> Marck's bias selective on whom gets the whip. He is doing what he is
> tasked to and, as far as I can see, doing it as correctly as possible,
> even if I do not completely agree with it. And... the fact that I do
> not agree with it does not bring any demerit to his moderation.

Hggdh, being biased and acting on the basis of that bias are not
necessarily the same thing. In addition, there seems to be some
contradiction in your argument. I don't see how you can say that you
disagree with what someone is doing and then express the opinion that
it is being done "as correctly as possible".

Look, Hggdh, there is an old and oft-cited legal maxim that justice
must not only be done but also seen to be done. The use of scapegoats
might be appropriate in some administrative situations, but it is not
an effective way to moderate an international forum. I believe that I
have already given a clear example of this, but let me make it
clearer.

We all know how diligent the moderators are about calling people to
task for top-posting and neglecting the use of a sig delimiter. But
when it comes to the area of "bad language" or "swearing", a huge
amount of it just gets ignored. Okay, I can live with that. But to
call me down for "swearing" and use of "bad language" when by no
stretch of my imagination at least was that the case (rather, I was
objecting to the use of "bad language") - and at the same time ignore
much more blatant examples - well, I just refuse to accept that. I
think this is not a case of justice being done, and I also do not
believe that any fair-minded and informed person would have seen it to
be done either.

> And, at the end of the day, I find I still can live with you, Marck,
> and everybody else here.

Well, I could probably live with you and Marck... and definitely Allie
and Mary and Natasha... and perhaps even Tony :-)... but there are one
or two people here that I definitely tune out and prefer to keep at a
distance (and I would not mind if they were to take the same approach
with respect to me). :-)

-- 
Avi Yashar
Windows XP Pro SP2 and The Bat! Pro (No OTFE) 3.5.31


 Current beta is 3.5.31 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
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Re: Fwd: Re: Re[2]: Priority Level - TOTEM TECHNOLOGY???

[TOTEM TECHNOLOGY CO.,LTD.]

-- [ From: TOTEM TECHNOLOGY CO.,LTD. * EMC.Ver #3.1a INTERNATIONAL ] --

Dear  Phil:

your  messages  was  sent  to  a  wrong  place and  I really  don't  know
that  how come  of  my  name &  e-mail  list will be  included  in your 
mailing  list,  anyway,  please  remove  my  name &  e-mail  address from 
your  mailing  list  imme.  in  order  to  avoid  of  your  messages being 
seen  all  over   the  world.

anyway,  please  remove  my  name  &  e-mail  address  from your  mailing 
address.

thanks.

Jimmy  Tong

P.S.

we  are  the manufacture of  PC  Mother  Boards only  in  Taiwan.

 
 REPLY, Original message follows 

Date: Wednesday, 09-Feb-00 04:38 AM

From: phil \ Internet:([EMAIL PROTECTED])
To:   Allie Martin \ Internet:([EMAIL PROTECTED])

Subject: Re[2]: Priority Level

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1

AM> On Wed, 9 Feb 2000 07:48:16 +0900, Leif Gregory wrote:
>> Agreed, but I have been using TB as my daily planner from the
>> get-go. I've got a parked message in my outbox that I jot down
>> things to do, e-mail addresses, URLs etc. I use TB every single day,
>> so instead of wasting space by loading some PIM (or using some
>> bloatware app that has built in PIM), I see the to-do message every
>> time I open TB.
AM> hehehehe. A plain text file sitting on the desktop perhaps,
AM> instead of a parked message??
A really nice one of those is http://members.xoom.com/lsthemes/CrankPadv75.
zip
CrankPad is a fully-featured transparent notepad replacement for win9x/NT.
I particularly like the fact that you can see thru it to your browser.

It could be useful to *some* people.
- --
surf to http://members.xoom.com/zsysopz We are PROUD to Run The Bat! 1.41 /
Beta1

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 5.5.3i

iQA/AwUBOKFfqo+UEn6F/fguEQIagACgusx9RsJDuKqqXGiJg1Is+11D6VUAoIym
zBDx9fGQNzJsyAIFHwENfd78
=nc1L
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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 REPLY, End of original message 


===8<===End of original message text===


Anyone know what's up with this guy?
Rather odd he would ask me to unsubscribe.   Smells  funny to me.  ;o)

Who ever holds the MASTER list, perhaps should look into this.
I haven't replied to the guy.  It's not really my problem.

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 philmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Fwd: Re: Re[2]: Priority Level - TOTEM TECHNOLOGY???

[Syafril Hermansyah]

Hello tracer,

On Monday, February 14, 2000 at 23:09:09 GMT +0700 (which was 15/02/2000
23:09 GMT +0700 my Local Time) you told to the list:

>> OTOH- if you set a filter... ;o)

t> Phil, acc to my server I had a bad email and they killed it.
t> 1. however they are still coming in, all the same, and yes I know it
t> isnt you doing it or the mailing list.  id's are identical.

Look  after,  not only the message-ID but the "flow" of message, perhaps
one or more your relayer are "open relay".

t> 2. any ideas from anyone why I should get ONE email repeated all over
t> would be welcome so I can get rid of it.

If your server is OK, check the upstream.

t> 3. I havent seen any email on the betalist for 2 days, did I miss
t> something?
t> sorry, getting 60 - 100 times or more per day this same email is
t> damned frustrating! (g)

:-)))

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Name: Syafril Hermansyah | Company : Duta Integrasi Pratama 
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URL : www.dutaint.co.id  | FAX : (62) (21) 351-9241  


Using The Bat! 1.41 Beta/3 under Windows NT 5.0 Build 2195 

Created : Tuesday, February 15, 2000, 9:35:51

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Re: Fwd: Re: Re[2]: Priority Level - TOTEM TECHNOLOGY???

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello tracer,

On Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:09:09 +0700 GMT (15.02.2000, 00:09 +0800 GMT),
tracer wrote:

t> sorry, getting 60 - 100 times or more per day this same email is
t> damned frustrating! (g)

I have a problem sometimes (no pattern detected yet), when TB does not
delete messages received and I receive the same over and over. When
this happens, it happens only for one account, never for any other.
Despatch Mail on Server, and then deleting it, will not delete it.

My way out is to telnet into that account and delete the message(s)
using pine. I am not sure whether this is really a TB problem or that
particular ISP.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.41 Beta/3
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  
using a Celeron 366 MHz, 128MB RAM



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Re: Re[2]: Current version?

[Allie Martin]

Hi Cees,
  On 10/05/2005 02:46 PM +0200, you wrote:
 you are??
AM> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.0b2 (Win32)
AM> X-Rogue: :Allie:
 hmmm. :rofl2:
I'm currently testing TB! RC/5 at home ... at home. :)
I'm at work now. I don't use TB! at work.
Better now? ;)
--
 Allie Martin
System specs: http://www.ac-martin.com/sysspecs.htm
-=-=-
Don't Take Life Seriously, It Is Not Permanent.

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Re: Re[2]: First Impressions

[Tony Boom]

--On 15 May 2005 13:45 -0500 Stuart Cuddy wrote about...
Re[2]: First Impressions:

Funny  your  message threaded this time. I guess because at least part
of the References: had <>.
Can you tell me if this one gets threaded OK please?
--
Tony.
M.

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Re: Re[2]: First Impressions

[Avi Yashar]

On 5/15/05, Tony Boom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> --On 15 May 2005 13:45 -0500 Stuart Cuddy wrote about...
> Re[2]: First Impressions:
> 
> > Funny  your  message threaded this time. I guess because at least part
> > of the References: had <>.
> 
> Can you tell me if this one gets threaded OK please?

And just a few messages back someone was talking about well-worth-it,
stress-free reliability! ;-p Well, I know POP3, and I have not worried
about losing messages since I started storing everything on - gasp -
Gmail. I never worry about disk space, and I also don't worry about
crashes. I suppose a crash could happen, but then I would have
millions of people to share my misery if it did.

Anyway, as I mentioned in my original message, a stable IMAP was the
promise of TB2.x. TB3.xPro is supposed to provide OTFE, and I would
really like a way to get that without having to do a clean install.

-- 
Avi Yashar
Windows XP Pro SP2 and The Bat! Pro 3.5


 Current beta is (none) | 'Using TBBETA' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first -
http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/

Re: Re[2]: First Impressions

[Avi Yashar]

On 5/23/05, Gleason Pace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Unplanned things happen in the registry sometimes.  This causes
> programs to act broken.  Even Microsoft can have this problem.
> Applying MS Office Service packs comes to mind.  Visual Studio too.
> The normal thing that most of us see is that the new TB 3.5 installed
> without a hitch.  There is no way RIT can know what might be lurking
> in your registry.  It takes a human eye to sort things out like that
> sometimes.

Okay, Gleason, but still MS Office Packs install automatically. I
mean, what am I supposed to do if there is something "lurking" in my
registry? I probably would not know what to look for and would only
find it after the installation went awry anyway. I imagine this is the
case with at least 90% of the people who upgraded to 3.0Pro. So why
not give us the automatic script to set up OTFE and then provide
support in case something goes wrong after that?

-- 
Avi Yashar
Windows XP Pro SP2 and The Bat! Pro 3.5


 Current beta is (none) | 'Using TBBETA' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first -
http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/

Re: Re[4]: First Impressions

[Avi Yashar]

On 5/25/05, Gleason Pace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > Okay, Gleason, but still MS Office Packs install automatically.

> I'm saying that I have seen situations when they didn't.

Sorry, I meant to say Windows Updates. And, yes, I did encounter one
or two problematic updates that I had to manually work around. But on
those very rare occasions, the manual fix was not that big a detail...
relatively speaking.

> >I  mean, what am I supposed to do if there is something "lurking" in
> >my  registry? I probably would not know what to look for and would
> >only  find it after the installation went awry anyway.
> 
> Maybe not, but your chances are better.

Well, Gleason, first of all, when we end up talking about a situation
where "chances are better" with an installation of OTFE, I guess that
sums up why I have not done it yet.

Second, maybe your chances would be better with the manual process...
but I suspect for most people their chances would be better with an
automated process. Imagine how many TBs would be sold if Ritlabs
provided a bunch of files and lengthy but vague instructions on where
each file had to go and what you had to write into your registry just
to install the software!

Personally, I don't think that this case is significantly different.
Ritlabs is telling me that I can get a feature, but I have to do a
backup, uninstall the program so that I can do a clean install, and
then after my clean install try to import my old settings and
directories and templates and whatever else I had, keeping my fingers
crossed that not too much will go wrong in this process, which you
assure me will take only ten minutes, inshaallah.

Anyway, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. But despite the
fact that you think my chances would be better with that manual
approach, do you see any technical difficulty with Ritlabs providing
an automated script for the process, assuming someone (like me) would
feel more secure with the spoonfed process?

-- 
Avi Yashar
Windows XP Pro SP2 and The Bat! Pro 3.5


 Current beta is 3.5.0.16 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first -
http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/

Re: Re[6]: First Impressions

[Avi Yashar]

On 5/25/05, Gleason Pace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The fact
> that the installer works for us and not for you points to
> something amiss in your registry.

Gleason, there seems to be some miscommunication. The installer works
fine for me. My complaint is only that the installer does not go far
enough, because I don't have an option with the installer to set up
OTFE while upgrading an installation.

-- 
Avi Yashar
Windows XP Pro SP2 and The Bat! Pro 3.5


 Current beta is 3.5.0.17 | 'Using TBBETA' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first -
http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/