Re: Mail to all address book entries

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Saturday, September 18, 1999, 7:30:18 PM (-5 GMT), TBUDL scribbled:

LG> Hmmm, You might try this. Save your addressbook to a temp
LG> file. Open the temp file as your addressbook. Move all of the
LG> names into one group, create your message and address it to
LG> the group. No real elegant, but it will probably serve your
LG> needs.

LG> For the future however, you might want to go to
LG> http://www.netforward.com and get an e-mail address with them. It's a
LG> forwarding address (meaning any mail sent to it will be forwarded to
LG> whatever e-mail address you specify.) For example, my e-mail address
LG> of [EMAIL PROTECTED] is a permanent one. When I move or change
LG> ISPs, I don't have to notify anyone! All I need to do is go to
LG> Netforward's homepage and change the forwarded to e-mail address
LG> there.

LG> So how much does this service cost? Nothing, it's free. They used to
LG> append a two line string of text thanking you for using
LG> netforward.com, but I haven't seen it in any of my messages for a
LG> couple of months.

I keep all my personal addresses in a master list and then split
them up into groups so that I may mail to groups. I mail to a
group by simply opening the address book, selecting the group
which I wish to send mail to all it's members and then hitting
the create a message button. You may create group specific
templates as well. Really fancy stuff here. :)

If I wish to inform everyone of a change of address, I select the
master list and hit the 'create message' button.

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Re: Subject Macro, was: Re[3]: (No Subject)

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Thursday, September 09, 1999, 1:03:29 AM (-5 GMT), Steve scribbled:

SL> #4, for me, would be that it is just plain bad
SL> netiquette.  I wish I could C&P the link for proper email
SL> netiquette.

If the moderators don't mind and for everyone who hasn't read
netiquette guidelines which may come in very handy in this list,
here's a link (as Steve wished he could give):

   http://www.albion.com/netiquette/corerules.html

This is a link to the core rules page but it's all there via
links. OTH's


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Re: Inserting Cookies

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Monday, September 20, 1999, 1:57:00 AM (-5 GMT), Marck scribbled:

QS>>   Is the "No Cookie" one of the options for random cookies from a
QS>>   cookie file?

MDP> No. It may be that you have some blank lines at the end of the cookie
MDP> file.

When using cookies from a remote file, I would at times get the
path to the cookie file inserted in some messages as a cookie.
Anyone else experienced that?

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Re: Filters

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Wednesday, September 22, 1999, 2:13:14 PM (-5 GMT), Claude scribbled:

> I want to send an auto reply to the senders of the posts I
> receive in a particular account.

> Some people wants not to get the auto reply.

> So I made the following filter :
> Source : Inbox
> Destination : Inbox\AutoReplyDone

> Strings Location  Yes/no
> String1 Text  No
> String2 Text  No

> Logically, IF ( (NO String1) AND (NO String2) ) is the same than
> IF (String1 OR String2)

> In fact, it doesn't work, in one case : if there is just one of the
> strings *and* if this string is in the first line of the text.

> Did I mess a point ?

It appear that you wish here for TB to filter when string 1 or
string 2 is not present.  For this to occur place string2 in the
alternatives section.

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Re: List Administration Note

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Wednesday, September 22, 1999, 10:46:11 AM (-5 GMT), Marck scribbled:

> We have now added a new dimension to TBUDL and TBBETA that will,
> hopefully, add to its' usefulness. The TBUDL and TBBETA discussion
> lists are now being archived in a public archive resource at
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] We have also provided
> a simplified alias for each address and convenient shortcuts to the
> archive in the list traffic footer text.

I visited the site and find it most appealing. I however have a problem
with it and it's that my e-mail address is exposed for everyone to see
and therefor, sets the stage for spamming. Distressing indeed. If I
remove my e-mail address from my signature, I guess that this will help,
but what of the messages that are already there? I don't wish to be
disruptive but I do hate spam.

If there is any reassurance to give in this regard apart from the fact
that I should get acquainted with spam filters, I'd really appreciate
this.

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Re: Filters

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Wednesday, September 22, 1999, 6:14:13 PM (-5 GMT), Claude scribbled:

AM>> It appear that you wish here for TB to filter when string 1 or
AM>> string 2 is not present.  For this to occur place string2 in the
AM>> alternatives section.


> Thanx, but does it work when there is just one of the strings and it
> is in the first line ? What I've done works well in all the other
> cases, but it seems to be a bug related to the test of the first line
> :)

I'm not sure what you're getting at.

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Re: List Administration Note

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Thursday, September 23, 1999, 9:32:30 AM (-5 GMT), Marck scribbled:

AM>> I visited the site and find it most appealing. I however have a problem
AM>> with it and it's that my e-mail address is exposed for everyone to see
AM>> and therefor, sets the stage for spamming. Distressing indeed. If I
AM>> remove my e-mail address from my signature, I guess that this will help,
AM>> but what of the messages that are already there? I don't wish to be
AM>> disruptive but I do hate spam.

AM>> If there is any reassurance to give in this regard apart from the fact
AM>> that I should get acquainted with spam filters, I'd really appreciate
AM>> this.

> I've discussed this with Syafril and we don't really see it as a huge
> issue. IMHO address harvesting is more prevalent on UseNet than Web
> and spam filtering is not too hard really.

Talk about feeling utterly helpless. I guess I have to go with these
SPAM filters which invariably, inadvertently filter legitimate mail
accidentally. I've tried them and since then stopped.

> If anyone on the list has any other views to express, I would be
> pleased to hear from you. If it's just a 'Me too', you can send that
> privately.

> FYI, there was a topic of discussion a while back about replying to
> sender instead of Reply-To. I do this very simply by using the
> following method:

> 1) Reply to All
> 2) Quickly Remove Reply-To: address from CC:

Thanks for that tip.

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Re: Anti-spam filters (was:Re[5]: List Administration Note)

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Thursday, September 23, 1999, 1:19:01 PM (-5 GMT), Marck scribbled:


> As  Steve  Lamb  pointed out in his reply, it is fairly academic since
> spammers  are  very briefly lived members of the community. However, I
> personally manually drag an offending message to the Anit-Spam account
> and  hit  reply. Even with a web presence and membership of many other
> lists,  I  see  very  little  spam  traffic and usually follow up each
> offence - reporting to the abused host and getting the culprit ousted.
> The Anti-Spam bounce *has* worked for me a couple of times though.

Aren't discussion lists private as TBUDL and TBBETA are? Public posting
of archives is a different thing isn't it. Be that as it may, I'm just
now enjoying some relative piece from spam since unsubscribing from a
couple usenet groups.

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Re: Anti-spam filters (was:Re[5]: List Administration Note)

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Friday, September 24, 1999, 8:18:56 AM (-5 GMT), Ron scribbled:

> Yes, I'm getting a lot more spam addressed to me individually
> recently.  I'd say that half is now addressed to me directly.  My
> guess is that some spammers have found that people (or
> ISPs) are filtering out messages not addressed directly to individuals,
> so they are doing this to get around that (even if it increases their
> overhead).

That puts subscribed to announcements type mail and user discussion list
type mail at risk since all these types of mail are not addressed
directly to anyone.  These would get filtered out.

Virtually all the spam that I get is not addressed directly to me.

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Re: Wrapping text

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Friday, September 24, 1999, 8:43:20 PM (-5 GMT), Claude scribbled:

AM>>  Whenever one gets mail that is not properly formatted and therefore has
AM>>  lines which exceed the width of the message view window, is there no
AM>>  method to wrap the text and if not, wouldn't this be a desirable
AM>>  feature to have?

> I use the following method :

> While (NOT(EOT)) {
>   1 : put the cursor at the beginning of the last readable word of the
>   first too long line ;
>   2 : press "Carriage Return" ;
> }

I usually just maximize the window to full screen and that does it. Most
other editors readers achieve the same effect by selecting word wrap in
a menu or similar area. Whenever mail with text lines longer that the
view window width is being read, the text is wrapped manually in a
transparent fashion.

> As this is a very funny way to spend my time, why the hell do you want
> such a feature ?

> ;-)

Isn't it obvious

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Re: SOT: Public Archives (Was: Re; Anti-spam filters)

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Friday, September 24, 1999, 11:00:27 PM (-5 GMT), Paula scribbled:

> It seems to me the best and surest thing to do if you are concerned
> about exposing your email address is not include it. It's very simple
> for someone on the list to email you directly by either (1) copying your
> email address from the display thing or (2) revealing the kludge and
> doing a right-click "write message to address" or (3) hitting Reply All
> then deleting the list address.

The problem with this, though I've already done this is that I can't
remove the address from previous posts that are archived and already on
the server. :)

> As for the second option, which I have on a list I administer, it may
> help, but it's a fairly simple matter for anyone to subscribe to a list
> and get at the archives.

True.

> I personally can't get too agitated about spam. I'm all over the
> internet in newsgroups and mailing lists and on the Web, yet I get maybe
> an average of 3 spams a day. I get alot more junk mail of the snail
> variety and a whole lot more time-wasting email from things I actually
> signed up for. :)

I joined *one* newsgroup . *one* . and in a short time I was
getting up to 10 spam messages per day. Now you can see where I'm coming
from. It took about four months after removing my e-mail address for the
spam to slow down to an average of 2-3 per day. You're ISP is probably
assisting you there.

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Re: Wrapping text

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Saturday, September 25, 1999, 6:41:55 AM (-5 GMT), Oleg scribbled:

AM>> Whenever  one  gets  mail  that  is  not  properly  formatted  and
AM>> therefore  has  lines  which  exceed the width of the message view
AM>> window,  is  there no method to wrap the text and if not, wouldn't
AM>> this be a desirable feature to have?

> Doesn't  Preferences - Auto-wrap help?

No it doesn't. I'm not speaking about message composing. I'm speaking
about merely reading messages that appear in the mailbox. I not too
uncommonly receive mail with very long lines that I have to scroll
sideways to read. In Agent I have the autowrap feature enabled which
will wrap the text to fit any window size that I choose.

> Only one thing to remember: you should switch from letter to another
> and back to make change take effect.

I don't understand that.


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Re: Anti-spam filters (was:Re[5]: List Administration Note)

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Saturday, September 25, 1999, 7:06:42 AM (-5 GMT), Steve scribbled:

> Regardless of your personal experience, that is not how the majority of
> the spammers operate.  By replying and stating "Well, I don't see that" you
> cast doubt on my position and damage people's perceptions of the most accurate
> way to handle the situation.

I applied your way of dealing with spam and it works beautifully for me.
Nothing has gotten through so far. That's my anecdotal experience. :)


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Re: SOT: Public Archives (Was: Re; Anti-spam filters)

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Saturday, September 25, 1999, 11:27:43 AM (-5 GMT), Paula scribbled:

>> The problem with this, though I've already done this is that I can't
>> remove the address from previous posts that are archived and already on
>> the server. :)

> Well, I wouldn't worry about it too much. There are only a few messages
> up there which will quickly become diluted by the torrent of messages to
> the list.

I would hope so. What saved my ass with the newsgroup spammmers is that
the posts are eventually deleted from the server after a time so
spammers looking for e-mail addresses to spam no longer find mine.

Since putting Steve's antispam suggestion into effect, I see no spam in
my Inbox which does make me less concerned. I guess that in return for
using the internet and being a member of a discussion list is to expect
some spam.

>> Now you can see where I'm coming from. It took about four months after
>> removing my e-mail address for the spam to slow down to an average of
>> 2-3 per day. You're ISP is probably assisting you there.

> No, they're not. Spam does tend to be generated from certain types of
> NGs more than some others.

This is admittedly true and I clearly chose a bad one.

Thanks for the reassuring words.

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Re: SOT: Gravity and TB

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Saturday, September 25, 1999, 11:09:56 AM (-5 GMT), Paula scribbled:

>> Please go to:

>> View | Global Options | URL Hotlinks -> Internet Mail | Use
>> registry association

>> This should work if you made TB your default email client.

> I don't have a registry association for TB or email of any type. What is
> the association supposed to be in the file types?

I made TB my default mailer using IE's internet options and going to the
'Programs' tab. You may then select TB! there.

Another thing, IIRC, doesn't TB! as when you first start it after
installing if it should be made the default e-mail client? I know this
will not help you at this stage Paula but I'm asking anyway.


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Re: Anti-spam filters (was:Re[5]: List Administration Note)

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Saturday, September 25, 1999, 6:29:17 PM (-5 GMT), Steve scribbled:

> Other filtering involves methods that produce a high amount of
> false-positives.

This is exactly why I wasn't using spam filters initially. Jokes from
friends would get 'nuked' and promotional male from software vendors
with whom I have registered software. Too many false positives. I have
to agree here.

>   When you (sex) get a lot of (erotic) mail in your spam
> folder (make money fast) that it gets more mail than your ($$$) inbox, then
> you have a problem, don't you?

LOL

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Re: Anti-spam filters (was:Re[5]: List Administration Note)

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Sunday, September 26, 1999, 12:44:43 AM (-5 GMT), Steve scribbled:

>> You missed the point. My point was that someone has a real problem,
>> which is off the norm, and you refuse to discuss it. Well then, don't.
>> But don't tell the author of that post, or the list, that this
>> shouldn't be discussed.

> You have missed the point.  He wasn't looking for discussion.  He was
> refuting advice I had given.  There is a difference.

But Steve, if your method doesn't work in his particular case, what
other recourse does he have but to put up his hand and say that it won't
work? I'd have done the same.

Do you have any advice for him at this juncture. I think that you've
succeeded in getting the point across that his situation is not the norm
and that his method of dealing with spam shouldn't be generally adopted.

I wish to hear how you'd deal with his peculiar situation of having to
deal with spammers who seem to stupidly believe in quality and not
quantity.

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Re: Wrapping text

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Monday, September 27, 1999, 10:01:15 AM (-5 GMT), Oleg scribbled:

> I  see.  The  fact is that Auto-wrap option takes effect both when you
> read  received  messages  (any messages in base in fact, no matter how
> did they have been added) and when you compose message in editor.

> So  to  make text lines wrapped when you read received mail you should
> turn  on  'Auto-wrap'.  But. You will see no changes immediately after
> you  change  this option. You should switch to another message to make
> this change to take effect.

OK, I looked carefully into the situation and realize what the problem
is. I find that I have the problem with messages written in in HTML
format and a sent with a plain text version.

The Bat does rewrap the long lines of text but what happens is that the
viewer space taken up by the attachments viewer isn't compensated for
and the text wrapping exceeds the viewers limit. Closing the attachments
viewer makes me see the full text.

My problem is that if The Bat chooses to display it's attachments the
way it does, it shouldn't do this to the detriment of how the text is
displayed. It shouldn't push the text off the viewer screen. My
complaint is a bit 'anal' but I'm a perfectionist with this sort of
thing. The text should be wrapped taking the space that the attachment
viewer occupies into consideration. I have to be either resizing my
window or switching off the attachments view in order to read these
messages easily.

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Re: Wrapping text

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Monday, September 27, 1999, 9:49:28 AM (-5 GMT), Nick scribbled:

AM>> My problem is that if The Bat chooses to display it's attachments the
AM>> way it does, it shouldn't do this to the detriment of how the text is
AM>> displayed. It shouldn't push the text off the viewer screen. My
AM>> complaint is a bit 'anal' but I'm a perfectionist with this sort of
AM>> thing. The text should be wrapped taking the space that the attachment
AM>> viewer occupies into consideration. I have to be either resizing my
AM>> window or switching off the attachments view in order to read these
AM>> messages easily.

>   Is there perhaps an undocumented keyboard shortcut to toggle the
> auto attachment view like there is with the auto mail ticker deal?
> That would be a rather easy solution, or at least work around.

Yes, I could live with that 'work around'. :)

I used to like the way TB! shows it's attachments until I now realise
that it does so to the detriment of the message text body viewing.

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Re: Is there a bug in the cookies?

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Monday, September 27, 1999, 12:21:34 PM (-5 GMT), Claude scribbled:

> It seems to me that the first cooky line is never chosen by the
> randomizer. I ran around that putting a first blank line. Does anybody
> got the same problem?

Why not place a blank line as the first entry in your cookies file. This
should solve your problem. :)

> btw : It seems too (no stats) that the lines in the middle of the file
> are chosen more often than the top and bottom lines. If this is not a
> cognitive bias, it may come from the use of a bell shaped
> randomization curve, instead of a constant one.

Now this I can't speak for. :)


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Re: Quote prefixing rehash

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Monday, September 27, 1999, 10:01:12 PM (-5 GMT), Mark scribbled:

> It's easy to get spoiled by Agent.:-)I agree that this is one of
> many Agent features that would greatly enhance the usability of TB.
> Agent is not a bloated app, and I think that many of it's features
> could be rolled into TB without making it a bloated app. Sure it's
> going to be larger than if the features weren't rolled in, but where
> do you draw the line?

Well, IMHO, what is it that we most commonly do when managing e-mail?

We download mail and compose new mail or reply to mail. A good message
editor with great features will make or break the app and this is
especially so if you've experienced good quality where that is
concerned.

I consider Agent to be far from bloated. It's the most stable app that
I've used and it really does nothing more than what it was designed to
do. It does it without the usual bells and whistles. It reminds me lot
of TB! in this regard. No unnecessary HTML support and other feature
support that may be provided by external apps that are usually installed
on a users system. A Great MIME types applet setup is provided for this.
It's URL management configurations applet is really nice so you could
use whatever browser you wish.

It's editor has a WYSIWYG word wrapping engine as well, with some really
neat options which hardly constitute bloat but instead offers not
infrequently desired flexibility in how one composes messages. I would
love to see TB! with a couple.

1) Support for customizable quote prefixing using other symbols apart from
 ">".
Many correspondents of mine use quote prefixes other than ">" and the
color differentiation is lost. Of course, in Agent, you simply include the
symbol in the list of symbols that should be treated as a quote prefix
and you're cooking. :)

2) The aforementioned feature discussed above.

You can call me 'anal' but this is all IMHO. :-)

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Re: Quote prefixing rehash

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Tuesday, September 28, 1999, 1:42:26 AM (-5 GMT), Thomas scribbled:

> Two different things, Allie: your earlier proposal was that the quotes
> should show the original sender's initial's; what you describe Agent
> is doing, is giving you the option to choose a fixed set of characters
> as a quote mark, regardless of who the sender is. I don't use Agent;
> kindly correct me if I'm mistaken.

My original proposal was that if one uses initials in his/her quote
prefixes, TB! should change the quote prefix used in 'quote as text'
option to the initialed type especially when quoting text from the
message being replied to.

A good example of the inconsistency is illustrated in this way:

Enable initialed quote prefixing and hit reply to this message. The
quote prefixing is fine.

Now, another way to reply to my message would be to remove the %Quotes
template macro and manually copy/paste what you need from my message. If
you do it this way, initialed quote prefixes are not generated. I would
have expected that the initialed quote prefixes would have been
generated either way. This is an understandable situation because I
don't know how TB! would be able to differentiate clipboard items taken
from TB! mail as opposed to a remote file, so it would be best to use
the default ">" prefix.

Some users actually happy the way things are but in looking at Agent, I
see a very workable solution. Agent has, not only a 'paste as quote'
option which pastes text with the default quote prefix, but also a
'paste as quote custom.." option which allows you to define whatever
quote prefix you like.

> And yes, I think it would be nice to be able to change the quote mark
> from the standard "greater than" to any character or string you like.

That's my number 2 request. Not only to be able to change it but also to
be able to define symbols to be sensed as quote prefixes. In Agent I
have things set so that "|", ">" and ":" are sensed as quote prefixes.
These are the most commonly used ones or combinations thereof. I
therefore get the appropriate color differentiation with correspondents
 mail not using a ">" as their quote prefix.

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Re: Quote prefixing rehash

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Tuesday, September 28, 1999, 1:59:05 AM (-5 GMT), Thomas scribbled:

MW>> I agree with you 100%.  I could name five or six features of Agent
MW>> that I would like to see rolled into TB without even having to think
MW>> about it.

> Let's hear them. ;-)

I mentioned two already.

3) More efficient and easy to use, most commonly used keyboard
shortcuts. The ones that really makes Agent a pleasure to use are
highlighting the message body view pane and :

simply the arrow buttons for true scrolling ;;; TB uses alt+arrow
buttons. Because of this I avoid using them. It's too cumbersome. I
settle for the space bar and just barely. Sometimes I just use the mouse
and scroll bar.

N for next unread message  The Bat! uses CTRL+]

R for reply ; The Bat! uses CTRL+F5 !!!

The latter two aren't so bad but the first is really a bummer for me.
I'll live though. :)

4)Being able to define a browser other than the default to be used for
URL's.

5)Ability to define own MIME types.

6) Customisable toolbars. I understand that this will be included in the
upcoming version.

I could go on but I'll stop hear. :)

These are all usability options which I think, IMHO, are important.

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Re: Quote prefixing rehash

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Tuesday, September 28, 1999, 6:00:10 AM (-5 GMT), Thomas scribbled:

> The "reply" function will be a TB specific module anyway, as opposed
> to a Windows function available to all Windows programmers. Thus, the
> wheel was not re-invented.

Exactly. This is why I conceded that making the copy/paste quote
prefixing was the best as it could be. An 'intelligent' quote prefixing
system that could tell the dfference between text copied from TB mail
from text copied remotely would be impractical. :)

AM>> Agent has, not only a 'paste as quote' option which pastes text
AM>> with the default quote prefix, but also a 'paste as quote custom.."
AM>> option which allows you to define whatever quote prefix you like.

> Does it allow you to use variables, like "initials of the sender of
> the origianal post", or does it allow you to user-define a fixed string
> of characters to replace the "greater than"? If it allow you to use
> variables that are sensitive to where this quote was copied/pasted
> from, then I'm wrong.

Perhaps these two examples using Agent will clear things up for you. I
have defined my own quote prefixes.

 Does it allow you to use variables, like "initials of the sender of
 the origianal post", or does it allow you to user-define a fixed
 string of characters to replace the "greater than"?  If it allow you
 to use variables that are sensitive to where this quote was
 copied/pasted from, then I'm wrong.

or

^%>|  Does it allow you to use variables, like "initials of the sender of
^%>|  the origianal post", or does it allow you to user-define a fixed
^%>|  string of characters to replace the "greater than"?  If it allow you
^%>|  to use variables that are sensitive to where this quote was
^%>|  copied/pasted from, then I'm wrong.

You see, you may define anything you like. :

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Re: Quote prefixing rehash

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Tuesday, September 28, 1999, 6:26:30 AM (-5 GMT), Thomas scribbled:

^%>>>|  Does it allow you to use variables, like "initials of the sender of

AM>> You see, you may define anything you like. :

> Nice, I like it ;-) However, it is a fixed string, not an
> "intelligent" option. So, using the initials (or any other information
> from the original text file) would not be possible. Or can you make
> Agent prefixing my message with "TF:-)" if you use the copy/paste
> function? And, automatically, your own messages with "AM :^)"  - I
> didn't think so.

It will not automatically place the appropriate signatures but it's
surely better than not being able to manipulate the copy/paste quote
prefix at all.

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Re: Quote prefixing rehash

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Tuesday, September 28, 1999, 10:34:58 AM (-5 GMT), Steve scribbled:

> This would be bad since it would break many other clients.  TB, for
> example, uses that character as a signal to color the quote line differently.
> Other applications to the same thing.  TB also knows that lines that have > in
> the first few characters are quotes and will wrap them correctly.  Other
> applications do this as well.  Allowing the user to choose a quote character
> willy-nilly breaks that de-facto standard across the board.

Ooops. Well, TB! has already broken this de facto standard by including
initials etc. in the quote prefixes so I think that I had better stop
trying to make matters worse. Funny, this is why I ditched using the
quote prefixes. No client which supports colour differentiation seems to
get it right with the initials in the quote prefix. Not even Gravity.:)

By the way, I thought that the quote prefix was used mainly to
differentiate quotes from non-quotes? This color coding that you speak
of seems to be confined to only a limited number if clients and it's
quite impressive to watch Gravity pull off getting the color coding
right when you throw different quote prefixes at it. In Agent you define
the strings which should be treated as a quote prefix. They certainly
also support the de facto standard quote prefix for formal situations
such as this UDL.

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Re: Quote prefixing rehash

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Tuesday, September 28, 1999, 11:45:48 AM (-5 GMT), Steve scribbled:

> Nope, initials are allowed.  Generally if you have the quote prefix within
> the first, uhmmm, I think it is 5 characters it is ok.

For TB!, it's 20 characters. Is this 5 character limit a de facto
standard which TB! could potentially breach when using first names in
the quote prefix?

TB! is the first windows based e-mail client that I've used that uses
text before the quote prefix ">". Anyone know of any others?

> Quite a few do from my perspective.  Of course, that perspective is the
> Unix world, not the Windows world.

I guess Unix has been around longer than windows and a lot of these
de-facto standards stem from it's userbase so we should adhere to them.
:-/ The windows clients should then support it. Those initials, break
the color coding on windows-based clients pretty much across the board.
Even the venerable Pegasus Mail. The paragon of standards eh Alexander?
:^)

>> By the way, I thought that the quote prefix was used mainly to differentiate
>> quotes from non-quotes?

>  Yes.  The defacto standard is >.  Software, knowing this, uses that to
> color the quotes to make it stand out even more.  Some will even color
> different levels of quotes with different colors.

That's true. I've seen that once.

>> This color coding that you speak of seems to be confined to only a limited
>> number if clients

> Again, from your perspective maybe.  From mine it is common fair.  It is
> actually uncommon for me to see clients that don't do coloring of that nature
> any more.

Interesting.

Thanks for the info Steve. I do learn a bit from you but after reading
your previous post I had better read very carefully and not piss you
off. >> Not a computer nerd; merely a techno-weenie. <<<
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Re: Quote prefixing rehash

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Tuesday, September 28, 1999, 10:33:25 PM (-5 GMT), Thomas scribbled:

SL>> This would be bad since it would break many other clients.  TB, for
SL>> example, uses that character as a signal to color the quote line differently.
SL>> Other applications to the same thing.  TB also knows that lines that have > in
SL>> the first few characters are quotes and will wrap them correctly.  Other
SL>> applications do this as well.  Allowing the user to choose a quote character
SL>> willy-nilly breaks that de-facto standard across the board.

> I wasn't aware of the de-facto standard, but now that you mention
> it... -  there is actually nothing wrong with the ">".

Actually I wasn't planning to use another quote prefix apart from the
standard. I suggested the feature because I get a lot of messages
without the standard ">" quote prefix which messes up the color coding.
I notice that clients that offer a customizable quote prefix don't run
into problems with color coding when dealing with messages with unusual
quote prefixes. As I said anyway the overwhelming majority use these
others :, |, or combinations thereof.

The paste as quote custom would be handy though. I could insert
appropriately insert initials manually when pasting a quote from
someone's mail message. :-)


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 -=Ali=-   

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Re: Quote prefixing rehash

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Wednesday, September 29, 1999, 3:54:53 AM (-5 GMT), Claude scribbled:

> What about this new one : a line is quoted if there is a '>' in it
> *and* there is no space char ' ' before the '>'. Seems to work well?

They couldn't do that and maintain their 'full name' before ">" option.
There is a space between the two names, remember? Or are you proposing
that they remove the fullname as an option . not a bad one because I
mean, who uses it anyway? The few times I've seen it used, it's usually
followed by polite requests to switch it off because the text lines are
too long or the sender posting a message afterwards asking not so
politely how to switch the damn thing off.  I'd, personally, only
use it in specific situations when copying and pasting from various
messages for the sake of clarity, but hey, it doesn't work with copying
and pasting either. :)

I really like your proposal. I just hope it isn't breaking anyone's
working environment.

MDP>> That would
MDP>> b*gg*r up the coloration a tad.
> ??? Well, I think "b*gg*r" is something like "f*ck *ff", isn't it? For
> my education, as I don't know a lot of bad words in English, what are
> your '*'? (mine are 'uo')
> :))

Why would you want to improve that area of your English vocab??? ;-b

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Re: Orange folders color

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Thursday, September 30, 1999, 7:54:39 AM (-5 GMT), Alex scribbled:

OZ>> What  the  difference  between  'new'  and  'unread'?  How  TB! should
OZ>> distinguish between them?

> After getting of mail  all received messages become "new".
> After  next session all unread messages from previous session still be
> "unread", but "new" will be only messages, received in this session.

> Got it? ;-))

Well, we need a definition of what a session is.

Has a session ended when you close TB! and a new session starts when you
restart it?

Is a session ended and a new session started when new mail arrives?

Does a new session start with each check for new messages?

Does a session end when you declare it ended by hitting a switch or
something?

You see, you have to be more specific. Not everyone is on your
wavelength esp. with such an obscure wish.

Maybe you need a color codes for messages intended for reading but not
just yet and one could then add a switch in the context menus.

 Mark read  /Mark all messages read
 Mark not read but for future reading   /Mark all unread messages not read but etc.
 Mark unread/Mark all messages unread.

Your proposal is more likely to cause confusion for others. It should be
a fully manual marker because of the dilemma with what exactly a session
is.

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Re: Orange folders color

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Thursday, September 30, 1999, 2:38:22 PM (-5 GMT), Claude scribbled:

C>>> The colors would work like that:
C>>> 1- If there is at least a "new" post in the folder: red. end.
C>>> 2- If there is at least a "seen" post in the folder: orange. end.
C>>> 3- brown. end.

WK>> That seems to make sense. I support this proposal.

Could only be implemented manually though since there are
variable reasons for calling a message seen.

What event exactly would make unread messages automatically be declared
seen and given the color orange?

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Re: Orange folders color

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Thursday, September 30, 1999, 6:38:22 PM (-5 GMT), Claude scribbled:

AM>> What event exactly would make unread messages automatically be declared
AM>> seen and given the color orange?

> Openingthefolderwhere   they   are   during  a few seconds
> (time chosen as an option).

> Exactly like  opening  an "unread" during a few seconds makes the post
> automaticallydeclared   "read".   (you   chose   thetimein
> account_properties / options).

A time. Wouldn't that time vary depending on how many messages you have
in that particular folder. I see a lot of potential problems there. I
still think that your feature is worthwhile but only workable through a
manual toggle switch or through filters.


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Re: Orange folders color

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Friday, October 01, 1999, 3:43:12 AM (-5 GMT), Claude scribbled:

AM>> A time. Wouldn't that time vary depending on how many messages you have
AM>> in that particular folder. I see a lot of potential problems there. I
AM>> still think that your feature is worthwhile but only workable through a
AM>> manual toggle switch or through filters.

> The  time  you  need  to  read a post vary, too, depending on how many
> lines  you  have  in it. But, after a time you've defined, it's marked
> "unread".  Did  you  have  any  problem with that? I had, from time to
> time: what I do is to hit ctrl+U and mark it unread.

Exactly, but that is one message per incident.

Suppose you get 30 messages in a folder and you are picking out the
interesting ones to read and some are long. You reach message 15 of the
new messages, while there are some twenty seen messages for later.
Suddenly there's a timeout and all the new messages are changed to
'seen.' I say, Aw shucks and have to look for the new ones to continue
reading. Wouldn't it be better if you read what you wanted to and then
at the end hit a keyboard shortcut which would label all unread messages
'seen' and not 'new' and then you move on?

Automaticity has it's problems and esp. so with your type of proposal.

> If  you  want  a  manual toggle, It may be this one, as it is a better
> priorities  management to spend time, hand working, with urgent posts,
> than to spend it with all the non-urgents.

Sure.

> In this case:
> Red (new posts in): I open the folder.
> A  time  (user  defined):  All  "new"  posts  in it are marked "seen".
>Orange.
> (If I want, for any reason, to keep one "new")
> I press ctrl+something: This particular post is marked "new". Red.

> Agreed?

Yes.

> Please notice two thing.

> 1- People who don't like this option may just act as if red and orange
>were the same color and don't make *any* change in their habits.

No, they just can't act. Multicolored folders get in the way unless they
have some useful meaning to the user.

> 2- When  I  open a red folder, I *know* that it's going to be orange.
>So, I go and see all the "new" posts.

Yes, you don't need to explain any further from your POV. I'm simply
explaining problems that may arise and annoy another user. One way of
doing this is to make it manual. This way anyone not interested in this
facility will not see any orange folders while using TB!. :)

> If  you really *hate*  this  auto  change (why not), and want a manual
> toggle,  for me I *don't* want to hand work and waste time with *each*
> non-urgent  posts.  So,  I can live with a manual toggle which changes
> *all*  the  "new"  posts  to "seen" with only *one* mouse click. Could
> you?

Sure. You read what you wish to read and then use the keyboard shortcut
that labels all unread messages 'seen'. You then move on. No need to hit
the shortcut for each message. Do you always have non-urgent messages in
each folder?

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Re: Orange folders color

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Friday, October 01, 1999, 6:41:12 AM (-5 GMT), Oleg scribbled:

OZ>>> I do not spend any time doing this sorting job. TB! does it. When
OZ>>> I   want   to  answer  some  message,  but  later  I  just  press
OZ>>> Ctrl-F5,Alt-F2  and  go on reading. After that I go to Outbox and
OZ>>> select answers to write and send.
C>> So, for *each* *non-urgent* post, you press ctrl-F5, etc.
> For *each* message I press Ctrl-F5 if I want to reply to it, sooner or
> later.  The  major difference in our mail working policies is that you
> have  in  one folder both urgent and non-urgent messages. I do not. My
> messages  are  filtered  by TB! by formal rules to the folders which I
> divided  into  2  classes:  for  urgent  messages  and  for not urgent
> messages.  First  are shown in mailticker, second are not. So, first I
> read  urgent  messages  and  reply to them if needed, and only when no
> more urgent messages left (mailticker gone) I begin to read non-urgent
> messages.  Sometimes  it  happens  that I have to answer a message but
> have  no  information  available  or smth alike, then I don't write an
> answer, but just press Alt-F2 to not to forget to answer it later.

That's a nice way of using features already present to achieve the same
effect Claude.

> So  I just do not open folders with non-urgent messages -- that what I
> mean by time saving.



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Re: Orange folders color

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Friday, October 01, 1999, 5:48:20 AM (-5 GMT), Syafril scribbled:

SH>>> Yes, Shift-Ctrl-F help me a much.

C>> I don't know this shortcut, what does it do?

> Create new filter :-).

Do you realise that it's the keyboard shortcut for toggling the
autoformat feature as well? :)


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Re: TB Message Scrolling feature suggestion

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Saturday, October 02, 1999, 12:38:11 PM (-5 GMT), Claude scribbled:

> What about a "reverse space barring" (I like this feature), with for
> example, Shift+Space (may be Alt or Ctrl, too)?

I don't get it?

> It seems simpler than toggling the "scroll" to use the arrows.
> I feel the space bar more ergonomic, even if this is not its normal
> use, than the arrows, even if this is their regular job.

The scrollbar moves you from page to page but tell me which you prefer:

Open a long html message and scroll through it, or scroll through a
webpage on your browser using the arrow keys, or rptd'ly hit the
page-down button. Which method makes you read the text more smoothly?

I'd say the arrow key method. The page down method isn't as nice at all.

Or are you proposing that the spacebar be used for scrolling? If so then
that's a no no. The arrow keys are for that.

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Re: TB Message Scrolling feature suggestion

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Saturday, October 02, 1999, 5:25:22 PM (-5 GMT), Claude scribbled:

AM>> I don't get it?
> Sorry, I don't understand what you mean :-(

Open a long message. Scroll with the arrow keys alone and it's the
cursor that takes you through the message. Scroll with the alt+arrow
keys and the scrolling is cursor independent which is much better. You
see it's superiority when you wish to scroll backwards. If you scroll
with only the arrow keys, the cursor has to work it's way from the
bottom to the top of the message window before scrolling actually
starts. Scroll backwards with the alt+arrow keys and the scrolling
starts right away.

>>> It seems simpler than toggling the "scroll" to use the arrows.
>>> I feel the space bar more ergonomic, even if this is not its normal
>>> use, than the arrows, even if this is their regular job.

AM>> The scrollbar moves you from page to page but tell me which you prefer:

AM>> Open a long html message and scroll through it, or scroll through a
AM>> webpage on your browser using the arrow keys, or rptd'ly hit the
AM>> page-down button. Which method makes you read the text more smoothly?
> Well, I use a mouse scroll wheel :)))

I don't have a scroll-wheel. Alt+arrows produces the same scrolling
effect that I am referring to but for such a commonly used keyboard
shortcut, it's too cumbersome. Just the arrows alone should work.

This is a high level usability discussion here because most e-mail
clients don't provide smooth scrolling capabilities *at all*, but TB
does through the alt+arrow keys. Agent is the only client that I know
which supports cursor independent scrolling using only the arrow keys in
the message view window, while the scroll-lock key switches it to the
cursor mode.

> ... but I think you're true.

AM>> I'd say the arrow key method. The page down method isn't as nice at all.

AM>> Or are you proposing that the spacebar be used for scrolling? If so then
AM>> that's a no no. The arrow keys are for that.

> No, I thought you wanted to *replace* the spacebar by the arrows, for
> doing the same thing.

No, that's not what I mean.

> For that, I prefer the space. But now, I understand you want to have a
> *smooth* scrolling, what is an other thing. For people who don't like
> mice, yes, this may be a comfortable feature.

Your assuming that those who like mice have mice with scroll-wheels on
them. IMHO, anyway, it's really nice when you can go through your
messages using the keyboard alone. In fact I don't use the mouse at all
with Agent. I however find that I use the mouse with TB! to scroll
through messages using the scroll-bar. Yuk, but the least of all the
other yukky ways. :-))

>  So, even if *I* will go on with the mouse, why not ?

> For me, a kind of "reverse space bar", acting like PgUp, would be more
> useful.

But the PgUp button is already there and works.

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Re: TB Message Scrolling feature suggestion

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Saturday, October 02, 1999, 7:03:34 PM (-5 GMT), Claude scribbled:

> Well, a scroll-wheeled mouse is less than 10 $, so I think that near
> anybody could get one. But I think, too, that each one as the right to
> prefer using kbd than mouse wheel, and to ask for an improvement of
> its functionality in TB!

Well, everyone has a keyboard while many don't have a scroll-wheel mouse
whether or not it's cheap. In fact some would refuse a scroll-wheel
mouse if you handed one over to them free of charge. :)

Attention to keyboard usability with respect to apps such as e-mail
clients are therefore well appreciated. Simply having a keyboard
shortcut available is not enough but the most commonly used ones should
be the simplest to use.

AM>> But the PgUp button is already there and works.

> A time more, you're true :)))
> But, for me, the use of the space bar is far more ergonomic, and I
> would like to have the possibility of a reverse move, shift+sp, may,
> for me, be the best combination.

Interesting that I'm pushing for desisting from keyboard combo's. Key
combo's shortcuts are used as a last resort, when the intended function
will clash with another. The pgUp button is a single key to achieve an
effect. I find it interesting that you prefer a key combo to a single
key.

> You would notice, too, that the PgUp don't skip to the message before
> when at the top of the post so, when I hit sp one time too much and go
> to the message after, it's a long maneuver to go back.

That's another thing with this space bar method of reading. You hit it
to go one page down and need to go back up you have to reach for the up
button. The arrow buttons are right there together however but
unfortunately one has to use them with the alt button.

> For me, as I prefer the mouse for smooth scrolling, the reverse "space
> barring" would be the interesting feature. But I support your idea, as
> it seems to be very convenient for kbd using people.

> btw: what is this "agent" you're talking about ?

It's Forte' Agent, a newsreader primarily but which may also be used as
an e-mail client. I was using it as my e-mail client before changing to
TB! and I still use it for newsgroups. It's keyboard shortcuts are well
thought out. Another app with well thought out keyboard shortcuts is
Opera. Very nice. Most common browsing functions are single key and are
placed on the keyboard in a fashion that makes them nicely accessible
for the given task. Opposing functions are mapped side by side and
different single keys are used instead of key combos which are in turn
reserved for less commonly done tasks.

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Re: TB Message Scrolling feature suggestion

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Sunday, October 03, 1999, 2:17:13 AM (-5 GMT), Thomas scribbled:

> PgUp doesn't seem to work here. I have the focus on the message list,
> with the message opreview pane open. I read the messages with the
> space bar. As clause pointed out, if you hit the sp one time too many,
> and you want to go back up in the same message, you have scroll up
> with the mouse.

> I jsut tried using the PgUp key. It work when your focus is in the
> message, alright. But once you get past the end of the message and
> into the next (using the space bar), the focus switches into the
> message list. PgUp will take you into a completely different message
> one page up in the message list, not one page up in your current
> message.

> What Clause is looking for, is a key (or combo) to undo the spacebar
> hit, or to reverse it. I second that wish.

I see what you mean. You should be able to do it all maneuvers with
either the message list in focus or the message preview pane in focus.

This seems to even strengthen the need for a solution to something.
There needs to be an easy way to read these messages. It is visually
better to scroll than to jump from one page to another since you have to
locate where you left off in the previous page. I guess one gets used to
anything. :-)))

A mouse scroll-wheel seems to be the best solution. You simply scroll
back and forth with a finger. The keyboard OTOH, uses this combo, that
if not used correctly can lead to totally different responses. For
instance, if you are focused on the message list, move to the next
message with the arrow down button and then read with the alt+arrow down
button. A lapse in holding down the alt button leads to being moved
inadvertently to the next message.

If I go through the message list with the message preview pane focused,
this mishap is prevented but, I'll have to navigate the message list
with the ctrl+arrow combo rather than just the arrow buttons. Reading
and selecting messages are therefore done with keyboard combos rather
than single keys. Grrr.

All this ranting in the quest for perfection. :-

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Re: TB Message Scrolling feature suggestion

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Sunday, October 03, 1999, 6:53:50 AM (-5 GMT), Claude scribbled:

AM>> Attention to keyboard usability with respect to apps such as e-mail
AM>> clients are therefore well appreciated. Simply having a keyboard
AM>> shortcut available is not enough but the most commonly used ones should
AM>> be the simplest to use.

> Obvious, I think?

I don't think so. The single key shortcuts were largely sacrificed to
facilitate the quick search facility which uses these keys. My question
is, how often does the average user, use the quick search facility? I
don't know. I don't use it at all. :) How often does one wish to
navigate the message list and reply to messages? All the time. :)
Ironically, it's easier to start the quick search facility. Just start
typing and the quick search window is invoked. :(  I'd have thought it
would have been more appropriate to invoke the quick search facility
with a keyboard combo or even a specific single key in order to free up
all those lettered keys for making single key shortcuts.

> Yes, I prefer it because it would be shift+sp, I don't have to look at
> the kbd to hit them. This is very different with PgUp/PgDw.
> Some would refuse a scroll-wheeled mouse free of charge, I would
> refuse a one year typist training, even free of charge :

Exactly. The hallmark of great usability involves ease of use with
whichever input device you prefer to use. :) The mouse-man as yourself
flourishes with TB because consistency is far easier to achieve, but the
keyboard user gets a bit frustrated and often wonders why things aren't
made a little more easy.

> Even with 'alt', they can't be used to go to next or previous post.
> The sp bar ability to scroll posts and to go to the next one is, for
> me, very convenient. I would like to have the possibility of making
> same thing in the reverse direction.

I agree. Space bar for page reading. Shift+spacebar for the reverse.
That would make the feature complete, consistent and intuitive. I see
with your concern. :)

AM>> It's Forte' Agent, a newsreader primarily but which may also be used as
AM>> an e-mail client. I was using it as my e-mail client before changing to
AM>> TB! and I still use it for newsgroups.

> So, I think it's a nice product. May I download it from anywhere?

You may visit the homepage and download it there at:
www.forteinc.com

AM>> It's keyboard shortcuts are well
AM>> thought out. Another app with well thought out keyboard shortcuts is
AM>> Opera. Very nice. Most common browsing functions are single key and are
AM>> placed on the keyboard in a fashion that makes them nicely accessible
AM>> for the given task. Opposing functions are mapped side by side and
AM>> different single keys are used instead of key combos which are in turn
AM>> reserved for less commonly done tasks.

> You seem to be a shortcut lover :)))

 If you don't mind my saying so, it would help if you
separated your statements from mine with an empty line . It makes for
much easier reading and nicer presentation. 

Yes, I am a keyboard shortcut lover. I use them over the mouse if I can.
When going through mail I find it to be more efficient than using the
mouse once you have the shortcuts mastered. I have the shortcuts sorted
out but they are just, generally, relatively cumbersome, especially
those for the most commonly used functions.

> For me, I prefer to use a mouse and keep the shortcuts for very often
> used actions. In TB!, I think I use Ctrl+U and that's all!

In contrast, I use the mouse only when making configuration changes or
doing tasks that I uncommonly do and the keyboard shortcuts aren't at my
finger tips. I also use the mouse at times for scrolling when I get
tired of the alt+arrow combo, ie, when I wish to use one hand to read.

> I don't really think that the arrows, or the "scrolling sp bar" are
> shortcuts. I would rather call them navigation keys. Like my "reverse
> scrolling Shift+Sp ;-)))

Whatever. :-))) On technical terms I agree but they are usually all
lumped together and called keyboard shortcuts.

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Re: Quotingproblem

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Sunday, October 03, 1999, 4:48:20 PM (-5 GMT), Claude scribbled:

>>> BTW, Werner, I just realized that we are dicussing this in the wrong
>>> list; we should move to TBUDL.

> :)

> btw, this point was discussed a few days ago: see the "Quote
> prefixing rehash" thread...

No Claude. This is a different matter. The point is that if someone were
to innocently write to you and place '>' signs for whatever reason in
the body of their text problems may arise. If the '>' appears within the
first twenty characters of the line it is treated as a quote prefix and
the reply quote prefix placed inappropriately in front of it.

Hit the reply button and look at the text below:

Go to Account -> Properties.
then templates -> reply and disable/deselect initials. Look where the
quote prefixes, '>', end up. Not a good thing is it?

I think that you had already alluded to this. On the list we don't have
this problem since we can add a space before starting the line but what
about incoming mail where the user of another client is not aware of the
problem? You'll be faced with a paragraph of quote prefixes
inappropriately placed when you hit the reply button as illustrated
above

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Re: TB Message Scrolling feature suggestion

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Sunday, October 03, 1999, 4:43:48 PM (-5 GMT), Claude scribbled:

> I meant that you saying was obvious, not that it was already
> implemented :)))

> A bit like Christobal Colomb egg :)

OK. I understand now.

AM>> I agree. Space bar for page reading. Shift+spacebar for the reverse.
AM>> That would make the feature complete, consistent and intuitive. I see
AM>> with your concern. :)

> So, I agree with you arrows wish, you agree with my Shift+SpBar: let's
> go lobbying :)))

I think that I've said enough and membership and TB developers looking
in have read enough of my blathering. :-/

> btw: I'm using new shortcuts in TB!: Alt+0, 1, 2... (view... thread...
> by...) is really too long with a mouse :)

Personally I've discontinued viewing by threads because when some of the
threads become particularly long and you hit the 'go to next unread
message' which happens to be a the end of a long thread, it's not
displayed properly. You end up seeing only the received time and size
columns which are actually way over to the right. I have to scroll the
message list sideways to see the first and second columns which have the
name of the sender and subject. 

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Re: Quotingproblem

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Sunday, October 03, 1999, 6:02:26 PM (-5 GMT), Claude scribbled:

AM>> The point is that if someone were
AM>> to innocently write to you and place '>' signs for whatever reason in
AM>> the body of their text problems may arise. If the '>' appears within the
AM>> first twenty characters of the line it is treated as a quote prefix and
AM>> the reply quote prefix placed inappropriately in front of it.

> Wouldn't this pb be solved with the same idea I had within the thread
> I related?
> It was to change the actual rule "If there is a '>' in the beginning
> of the line AND the first char is not a sp, quote" to "If there is a
>  '>' in the line AND no sp before it, quote".


Yes it would!


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Re: Quotingproblem

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Monday, October 04, 1999, 9:07:46 AM (-5 GMT), Thomas scribbled:

> If everybody used TB! (wouldn't that be a nice world ), everybody
> would know who wrote what. Yes, especially in business it is indeed
> *very* useful.

The problem is that most people *do not* use TB!. Most people who use
other mailers other than TB will not use initials and it will create
difficulties, hence my turning it off. I don't use initials on TBUDL as
I'd like to because the quote prefix settings can't be achieved on a per
folder basis.

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Re: TB Message Scrolling feature suggestion

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Wednesday, October 06, 1999, 3:05:17 PM (-5 GMT), Roel scribbled:

> I enclosed a list I got earlier, but I don't know from who anymore...
> It was on this list, but I lost nearly all my files last week...

I can't seem to save the attached list remotely. I don't have the
problem with other attachments. H

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Re: More on Keyboard Navigation

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Thursday, October 07, 1999, 1:39:55 PM (-5 GMT), Keith scribbled:

>   The space bar only seems to work if the folder is sorted in time
>   DESCENDING order. If I sort in ascending order, when I finish
>   reading a message, the space bar takes me to a message I've already
>   read.

Yet another reason why I stay away from the spacebar.

>   Is there any way around this?

Get with the program and sort your messages in descending order.
Uhgm, sorry, just joking. :-))
There's no work around it AFAIK.

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Re: More on Keyboard Navigation

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Thursday, October 07, 1999, 4:54:43 PM (-5 GMT), Keith scribbled:

>> Yet another reason why I stay away from the spacebar.

> Guess I'll need to start experimenting with the arrows!

Whenever I feel energetic, which unfortunately is not that common since
I leave the energy for work and relax over e-mail, the alt-arrow keys
for scrolling through messages, the Ctrl+] to move to the next unread
message works OK. ;/

>> There's no work around it AFAIK.

> Too bad... I don't suppose there's a list of features planned for 2.0
> anywhere, is there?

I have no idea. But all I can do is hope. One thing TB! developers do is
listen to their customers  within reason of course. I think the
issue with the keyboard shortcuts is a reasonable one except that to
change them would be a bit disruptive since some may have gotten used to
them. Some inconsistent shortcuts have been changed since I've been
using TB! however, so don't give up hope. :)))

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Re: TBUDL install and information on macros

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Saturday, October 09, 1999, 1:17:43 PM (-5 GMT), Keith scribbled:

> Allie, there were two files at the ftp site: the_bat.exe and
> thebat.exe. I wanted to make sure I got the right one, so I downloaded
> both and tried running them. As you discovered, thebat.exe is simply
> the The Bat! executable. However, the_bat.exe is the installation
> executable. Both gave me 1.6; I'm assuming that what you did should
> work just fine, but I'm not sure.

Thanks. I thought as much. :)

I *did* download only the executable which was all that I needed anyway.

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Re: Attach folder

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Saturday, October 09, 1999, 6:15:03 PM (-5 GMT), Jack scribbled:

>   Can I safely delete everything in each account's *ATTACH* folder?
>   I've already SAVEDTO those attachments I wish to keep. Also, if I
>   delete them, what happens to the still kept messages they came from?

Nothing happens to the messages. I understand that there used to be
problems exporting messages with attachments deleted in such a fashion
but that was many versions ago and this problem may have been fixed.

If, like me, you have no plans to export messages then you should be OK,
irrespective of the exporting issue.

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 -=Ali=-   

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Re: Forwarded messages

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Saturday, October 09, 1999, 6:13:05 PM (-5 GMT), Jack scribbled:

> What's the deal with forwarded messages appearing as attachments? I
> sometimes have to click *NUMEROUS* times on an attachment because each
> click brings up a new attachment with a blank page. I assume it's
> because my lazy friends receive forwarded messages from others and
> simply forward them to me. Is there any way to make this work more
> efficiently or even differently?

What's happening is that the message is MIME forwarded and then the
message containing the MIME forwarded message is in turn MIME forwarded
and so on.

Jokes are sent to me and I have to open up to eight windows to *finally*
get to the joke. I don't think that it's laziness that causes the
problem but more ignorance.

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Re: Auto-formatting a bit jumpy

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Sunday, October 10, 1999, 3:23:44 PM (-5 GMT), Tomasz scribbled:

> Doesn't  it  seem  to  you  guys  &  gals that the way autoformatting is
> implemented  in  the  new Bat 1.36 is a bit jumpy? I mean, the paragraph
> reformatting takes place after every single keypress and when you:
> * are using the justified format
> * are writing in the middle of a paragraph
> * are  a  touch  typist  and  looking  at the screen rather than at  the
> keyboard when writing
> Then  the  words jump all over the screen and it's hard to keep track of
> what you are writing.

> IMHO a better way would be to reformat only after whitespace keypresses,
> like Agent does.

Agreed, hence my going back to the old manual alt+l. I have more
control that way. :)

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Re: Some questions about 1.36

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Monday, October 11, 1999, 2:23:46 AM (-5 GMT), Oleg scribbled:

OS>> 1) What do I do with %REGEXPTEXT & %REGEXPQUOTES macros ?
> I  do  suspect  that  these  macros  should change the quoting prefix,
> although I didn't check it myself.

I tried them and can't seem to get them to do change the quote prefix.
Probably they're for some other mysterious purpose but I'd sure like to
know since I may find use for them.


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Re: Confirmation of bug

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Monday, October 11, 1999, 2:48:17 AM (-5 GMT), Steve scribbled:

> Just looking for confirmation of this bug.  It appears that 1.36 is not
> honoring the deferred delivery option in the account settings.  Un/True?

True.


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Re: Some questions about 1.36

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Monday, October 11, 1999, 3:07:04 AM (-5 GMT), Steve scribbled:

>> I tried them and can't seem to get them to do change the quote prefix.
>> Probably they're for some other mysterious purpose but I'd sure like to
>> know since I may find use for them.
> 
> The answer is in the changes log.  They have added Perl style regular
> expressions to certain areas of TB!.  Regular expressions (regexp) are
> patterns that match against text and allow for the inclusion or exclusion of
> said text in a very powerful manner.  Anyone who has done any work on unix
> with either grep, perl or sed will know what regexps do and will most likely
> be doing the jig next to their keyboard when they find out they are in TB!.
> 
> BTW, it is something that I've been trying to get into PMMail for years.

Well, I don't expect any details from you but the lack of
documentation by Ritlabs would indicate to me that they wish to leave
the 'jigging' to those who already are familiar with regexp and how to
use them.

Should I take it to mean then that only those who are already familiar
with it would have use for it?

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Re: Some questions about 1.36

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Monday, October 11, 1999, 4:22:37 AM (-5 GMT), Steve scribbled:

> Well, no.  Regexps are one of those features where you don't know you'd
> use it until you learn it and use it.  Once you do then whenever you find
> yourself in a situation that would be solved nicely and neatly with them and
> they are not present it is like missing a limb.  Sure, you can get the job
> done another way but it takes a while to do it.  ;)

 well done explanation

> Again, that is but a simplistic example of what regexps could do.  I guess
> what I'm trying to say in my long-winded style is that regexps are an
> excellent tool for manipulating text and email, being a text-based medium, is
> an application exceptionally suited for their use.

Thanks very much Steve for spending the time to sensitize me to this
whole thing. After writing that reply to your initial message I
decided to type 'regexp' into a 'google' search and did come up with
quite a bit of info and as you said, it is complex. But it's indeed
interesting and I'll continue looking at it and familiarizing myself
with it. Thanks again. :)


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Re: The Bat! - bug report links in square brackets

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Monday, October 11, 1999, 6:38:25 AM (-5 GMT), Andrew scribbled:

>   The bug description:

>   Links in square brackets are not distinguished by TB.

>   Steps to reproduce the bug:
> [http://www.ru/]

It's not really a bug. Just place spaces between the brackets like
this: [ http://ww.ru/ ].

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> Borrow money from pessimists--they don't expect it back.  <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
*---*

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Re: History list

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Monday, October 11, 1999, 5:13:39 PM (-5 GMT), John scribbled:

> I know this is probably an easy or dumb question, but how do I remove
> names and addresses from the drop down history list on the editor.
> Thanks.
  
Open the dropdown menu list.

Tap the down and up arrow keys to navigate to the address you wish to
delete. When the address is highlighted simply hit 'delete'.

HTH.


-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> Know God...know peace. No God...no peace. <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
*---*

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Re: Suggestion: Warn if no subject entered

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Tuesday, October 12, 1999, 3:10:15 PM (-5 GMT), Kevin scribbled:

>> Personally, I find those "idiot light" type warnings irritating as all
>> heck. I'm always thinking "If I wanted a damn subject I would have put a
>> damn subject" as I press the OK button. Just add a default to your
>> template and then change it if needed, at least you'll have something
>> there. Like - "This would be different if I didn't forget to change it".

> Except that a subject is something that you almost never want to leave
> blank and a default subject is no better than no subject.  If you never
> forget to enter a subject then you never see the 'idiot light' that us
> idiots seem to need.  :-)

That's true. It's good netiquette to always include a subject header.
If a pop-up message comes up if you don't have a subject on sending as
it does when you don't have an address entered then that would be
appropriate.

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> PCMCIA: People Can't Memorize Computer Industry Acronyms <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
*---*

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Re: Suggestion: Warn if no subject entered

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Tuesday, October 12, 1999, 3:12:09 PM (-5 GMT), Steve scribbled:

> Operative term is almost.  Quick notes to my relatives, however, I rarely
> put subjects on.

Bad netiquette. :)

> Software isn't there to prevent the user from making mistakes.
> Assumptions like that only decrease software's usability, not
> increases it. I'd rather make the mistakes than have to confirm
> everything.

> Look at it another way, deleting files in Windows is impossible now
> without having at least one and possibly up to 3 different
> confirmation boxes. I find that inexcusable.

I totally agree with you on this one but I find the subject thing a
bit different.

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> My software never has bugs. It just develops random features. <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
*---*

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Re: Suggestion: Warn if no subject entered

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Tuesday, October 12, 1999, 6:08:06 PM (-5 GMT), Steve scribbled:

> For the record, no, you cannot.

> If you have files going into the trash and don't turn off the
> confirmation.  You have to confirm when you press delete, confirm on programs,
> confirm when emptying trash.

> If you turn that confirmation off you still need to confirm on programs
> and confirm when emptying trash.

> If you turn off files going into the trash you have to confirm when you
> press delete and there is no way to turn off that confirmation.  Of course,
> you also have to confirm if they are programs.

It's all damn irritating but it saved my ass a couple times and I was
so grateful that I've kept my mouth partially shut about it.

I tend to move around with the mouse pretty quickly and I have
inadvertently selected folders for deletion and realize this just as I
hit Shift+Del and then am able to cancel the deletion at the time of
the query. It therefore, ironically makes me not have to be too
meticulous and therefore a lot quicker since the mistakes are rare but
do occur with speedy GUI use. :) Just playing devils advocate but it
does help me in this ironic sense.

-- 
Regards,
 -=Ali=-   

   >>> "Young men are apt to think themselves wise enough, 
   as drunken men are to think themselves sober enough." - Earl of Chesterfield <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
*---*

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Re: Suggestion: Warn if no subject entered

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Tuesday, October 12, 1999, 6:13:11 PM (-5 GMT), Steve scribbled:


>> I'd rather have more options than I'll ever use than to be frustrated
>> because I have none at all.

> Then why are you using Windows?

Now that's a good one. I like that.

My response is that other OS's that offer great flexibility do so
through excessive complexity, obscurity, and obfuscation that makes it
not really worth taking the time to learn unless your livelihood
depends on such flexibility as it is in the case of computing
professionals.

Is there such a thing as a flexible, yet easy to use app or OS?

The Bat! is the closest thing that I've seen that fits the bill.

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> Oxymoron: Work Party. <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
*---*

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Re: Suggestion: Warn if no subject entered

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Tuesday, October 12, 1999, 9:02:21 PM (-5 GMT), Steve scribbled:

> People who say that Unix (Esp. Linux) is hard have never used it and don't
> really grasp how hard Windows/Mac are nor the difference between "hard" and
> "different."

Could we take this off TBUDL's bandwidth? I think the readership may
be getting bored here.

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> Half of the people in the world are below average. <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
*---*

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Re: Internal picture viewer

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Wednesday, October 13, 1999, 4:17:50 AM (-5 GMT), Oleg scribbled:

> Just  checked.  I  can't  say  it  doesn't  work  anymore  at all, but
> sometimes  it  doesn't  show  a  picture,  I  haven't found a law yet.
> sometimes  it  seems  to help if you leave messages and switch back to
> it, but sometimes it doesn't help.

It displays .gif images OK but doesn't display .jpgs.

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> PARANOID:Paying MORE for Surge-Protectors than Computers <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
*---*

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Re: Internal picture viewer

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Wednesday, October 13, 1999, 3:40:19 PM (-5 GMT), Stan scribbled:

AM>> It displays .gif images OK but doesn't display .jpgs.

> Just found interesting thing:
>  It  shows  jpegs when the message is in the Inbox, but once it is
>  moved to a different folder it doesn't show up anymore!

I just moved a message with multiple .jpg images to the inbox and
still they aren't displayed. Funny the tabs are appropriately
displayed to signify that it's an attachment that is viewable by TB
internally.

I have no problems with .gif files.

The problem is with .jpg and .jpeg images (they're the same but I was
wondering if the file extensions would make a difference so I checked
and they don't.

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> Ideas are not responsible for their followers! <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
*---*

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Re: Internal picture viewer

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Wednesday, October 13, 1999, 5:27:15 PM (-5 GMT), Alexander scribbled:

> Hey, might this be a problem with ordinary/progressive JPEGs? Maybe
> TB's internal viewer cannot display the latter type of the  format?

It could before.

>> I have no problems with .gif files.
>> 
>> The problem is with .jpg and .jpeg images (they're the same but I was
>> wondering if the file extensions would make a difference so I checked
>> and they don't.

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> Oxymoron: Spending Cuts. <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
*---*

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Re: Suggestion: Warn if no subject entered

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Wednesday, October 13, 1999, 3:23:17 PM (-5 GMT), Anne scribbled:

> just have a notice in the subject line in an evil red color "no
> subject" when so subject is entered.

> that shouldn't bother while composing (eyes concentrated on something
> else) and yet be seen when entering a recipient.

You'll get used to it, just as you have gotten used to the fact that
the subject box has this evil emptiness when no subject is entered
that already doesn't bother you while composing your message and yet
can be noted when entering the recipient. :)

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> The first step to making a dream come true is to wake up <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
*---*

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Re: Broken Thread (Was: Re: Internal picture viewer)

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Thursday, October 14, 1999, 1:54:50 PM (-5 GMT), Keith scribbled:

> OTOH, Stan's 'Re[2]' and MaXxX's 'Re[2]' both start new threads in
> Agent. I think The Bat! is the only email client that handles these.
> Are there others?

This is why %Singlere is such a handy template macro. ;-b

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> The irony of life is that no one gets out alive... <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
*---*

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Re: New graphics...

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Saturday, October 16, 1999, 2:32:43 PM (-5 GMT), Steve scribbled:

>> Hmmm...  I think left arrow for previous and right arrow for next is
>> pretty intuitive.  I personally like them...  :-)

> I would agree if prev/next were left and right of the current message.
> However, in the list view, they are up and down.

Yes, the change is less intuitive.

-- 
Regards,
 -=Ali=-   

   >>> GURU: One who knows more jargon than you. <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
*---*

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Re: CRTL-BS

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Sunday, October 17, 1999, 7:24:55 AM (-5 GMT), Thomas scribbled:

TF>>> When I reply to or forward a message, a little arrow attaches
TF>>> itself to the envelope icon in front of it in the message list. By
TF>>> focussing on this message and hitting crtl-backspace, I can
TF>>> follow-up, i.e. TB! will show me my reply.

TF>>> This works not always. I just had a case where the error message is
TF>>> "Reply was not found in most appropraite folders. Would you like to
TF>>> search through the whole message base Y/N?". Sometimes it does find
TF>>> the message then, sometimes not.

TF>>> So, under which circumstances will it find the reply?

AKL>> Found an old post of yours. It wasn't replied as far as I see... I
AKL>> suppose TB should find the reply as long as your reply stays in Outbox
AKL>> or Sent mail folder. If the reply is there and TB does not find it,
AKL>> it's surely a bug. Please, MIME-forward me such "causing bug" messages
AKL>> (original and your reply) for testing, if you can.

> I think the arrow comes up if you reply or forward, regardless. But
> ctrol-BackSpace will find it only if the message has been replied to,
> not if forwarded.

> Can anybody confirm this?

No, it will not work with forwarded messages.

The next thing that I've noticed is that if you are composing a reply
and decide to not bother with the reply (something that happens to me
quite commonly with this UDL :-}), TB! still registers the message as
being replied to by showing the little arrow on the envelope. When you
hit ctrl+backspace, you then, of course, get an error.

I have just now been noticing that if I hit Ctrl+backspace on
forwarded message, I can no longer interact with TB!'s main window. I
don't use the message autoview window at all by the way.

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> God I want patience, and I WANT IT NOW! <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
*---*

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Re: The Bat! - suggestions

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Sunday, October 17, 1999, 12:56:28 AM (-5 GMT), Keith scribbled:

>> May be a new button or a pull-down menu (as one under the Get mail
>> button) item would be a better way then a pop-up dialog every time the
>> user hits Reply?

> I hate to keep referring to other programs, but Agent and Becky! have
> SO many nice features that I hope TB would emulate

> Becky handles this one really nicely. On the bar separating the
> message list from the preview pane, there is an icon called "Check
> Addresses". If you click on this icon, it brings up the From, Sender,
> Reply-To, To, and Cc fields with their contents. Among other things,
> you can click on the addresses you want to reply to, then click on a
> "Reply to the Address" button, and you've accomplished what you
> wanted. It's very flexible.

> If you just want to reply to the Reply-To address, or Reply to All,
> there are icons for these; you don't have to use Check Addresses
> unless you want the added flexibility.

For the time being I use the reply to all option and delete the
address that I don't want to reply to. This works well for TBUDL since
it's the From and not the Sender address that is placed in the To:
field.

-- 
Regards,
 -=Ali=-   

   >>> Polls show that 9 out of 6 schizophrenics agree. <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
*---*

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Re: Bug detected with ctrl+backspace

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Sunday, October 17, 1999, 1:10:46 PM (-5 GMT), Andrew scribbled:

AM>>  OK, I've now detected the pattern.

AM>>  If you forward a message, a copy of the message sent is not placed in
AM>>  the "Sent" folder and this is why hitting Ctrl+backspace to find the
AM>>  forwarded message copy will not work.

> Here all forwarded messages are kept in Sent. May be you have some
> Sent mail filters? Or it depends on the method of forwarding? I don't
> use MIME forwarding here. Any other ideas?

I use MIME forwarding and maybe that's where the problem lies.

What about the hung main window with the Ctrl+backspace operation via
a View Folder window. Do you experience this?

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> Useless Invention: Lie detectors for politicians. <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
*---*

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Re: Bug detected with ctrl+backspace

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Sunday, October 17, 1999, 4:23:22 PM (-5 GMT), Andrew scribbled:

AM>> I use MIME forwarding and maybe that's where the problem lies.

> Just tested it. The sent mail (with the forwarded mail MIME attached)
> was put in Sent mail folder. But I use the standard template (with
> quoting the forwarded mail in the body of created message). What's
> your template? And, please, examine your Sent mail filters.

Err. You're right. I was testing by sending messages addressed to
myself. I'd forgotten that I had created an outgoing message filter to
delete messages addressed to myself.

AM>> What about the hung main window with the Ctrl+backspace operation via
AM>> a View Folder window. Do you experience this?

> Yes, I do. The main window does not respond to mouse, it's menu not
> working, though it responds to key shortcuts such as Alt+x (Exit), F5,
> etc.

OK, I'll send in an official bug report for the record. :)

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> A program is never finished until the programmer dies. <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
*---*

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Re: (No Subject)

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Sunday, October 17, 1999, 7:54:49 PM (-5 GMT), Jason scribbled:

> Is there anyway to get formating  into templates ? specifically into
> the print template .. e.g. Having a Bold 24 point Arial Font heading ?

No, AFAIK, templates do not support this function.

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> "I'm not smart enough to lie" - Ronald Reagan <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
*---*

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Re: jump to the next unread message - was - Re[2]: The Bat! - suggestions

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Sunday, October 17, 1999, 10:48:20 PM (-5 GMT), Thomas scribbled:

AKL>> Ctrl+[  - jump to the previous _unread_ (inside the current folder _only_)

> As for these "short" keys, somebody suggested to change these to N for
> Next Unread and so on, I think the suggestions were based on
> Agent - I think that would be a good idea. Ctrl-] is really awkward to
> use.

This will unfortunately break the operation of the quick search
utility.

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> Press any key to continue or any other key to quit... <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
*---*

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Re: Getting formatting into templates ?

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Monday, October 18, 1999, 1:03:51 AM (-5 GMT), Oleg scribbled:

   
> Hello, the Bat! list recipients,

> Monday, October 18, 1999, Jason Varney wrote about
> Getting formatting into templates ?:

JV>> Is there anyway to get formatting  into templates ? specifically into
JV>> the print template .. e.g. Having a Bold 24 point Arial Font heading ?
 ^^
 Oops. I didn't see this so disregard my negative remark on
 this. Must be tired or something. :)

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> Oxymoron: Random Order. <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
*---*

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Re: Message navigation bug detected.

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Tuesday, October 19, 1999, 12:06:42 AM (-5 GMT), Keith scribbled:

   
>>  In the view folder window, I use Ctrl+arrows to move from message to
>>  message. Shift+Ctrl+arrow is supposed to delete the displayed message
>>  and move to the next. This is not working as it should. The shortcuts
>>  work in the reverse fashion.

>>  Shift+Ctrl+Up arrow is supposed to delete displayed message and move
>>  up to previous message. It does the opposite.

>>  Shift+Ctrl+Down arrow is supposed to delete displayed message and
>>  move down to next message. It does the opposite.
  
> Similarly, the four icons on the right (excluding the trash can) don't
> seem to work right, either. Two are Next/Previous; the other two are
> Next/Previous with Deletion.

They work quite predictably if you realize that the left arrow takes
the place of the up arrow and right arrow takes the place of the down
arrow.

> In contrast to the keyboard shortcuts you mention, these don't seem to
> work opposite to what you'd expect. In fact, I haven't been able to
> figure out what they do do. (With time, I could probably figure it
> out, but)

That sounds a bit contradictory. How are you going to tell whether or
not they do the opposite of their intended purpose when you haven't
been able to figure out what they do in the first place?

Anyway, it's really a mess of consistency.

See if you can follow me:

In the last set of toolbars, an thick, red up arrow was the toolbar
shortcut to delete the displayed message and move up to the previous
message. Now look at the keyboard shortcut to achieve the same task
 Shift+Ctrl+down arrow. The arrows are in the opposite direction.
^^
Not very intuitive or consistent is it. They've changed the arrow
directions for the toolbar shortcuts now so at least they are no
longer poles apart. :)

Look at the keyboard shortcuts alone for that matter:

Follow previous .. Ctrl+Up
Delete and Follow previous ... Shift+Ctrl+Down (instead of Shift+Ctrl+Up)

Follow next .. Ctrl+Down
Delete and Follow Next ... Shift+Ctrl+Up (instead of Shift+Ctrl+Down)

The whole thing had me confused and I even reported it as a bug but I
see the shortcuts written in on the Navigation menu so it's clearly
intended to be this way. I can't see the logic behind it though.

>  P.S. I apologize if this has already been discussed here--but is your
>  name Allie or Ali? 8-)

Actually it's Allie but I find that Ali is less problematic on usenet
and discussion lists since most who proceed to assume my sex upon
seeing the name Allie, assumes the opposite of the truth, i.e., that
I'm female. I can't say I blame them either since Allie is usually a
shortened 'pet' version of a female name.:)

The spelling Ali, I've had to grow up with since my name is always
misspelled in this way. Ali is indisputably a male name. I therefore
tend to use it to avoid the confusion which often comes to light
surprisingly late with some of my internet acquaintances. This is my
way of minimizing confusion. Nothing else intended.

-- 
Regards,
 -=Ali=-   

   >>> Folks who think they know it all bug those of us who do <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
*---*

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Re: Message navigation bug detected.

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Tuesday, October 19, 1999, 11:02:35 AM (-5 GMT), Keith scribbled:

==8<===
> 3. What I observed was that the blue-arrow icons were NOT moving to
> the next message, either up OR down.

==8<===
> (Damn auto-format got me again! Sorry.) Yes, I understood what you
> were saying, but the versions that do NOT delete are not working that
> way for me. Here's a specific example. Anyone who still has these
> messages can test their results; you might not, if you're deleting

==8<===
> In other words, not only do the arrows move me in an unexpected
> direction, but they don't move me to an adjacent message!

OK, I see exactly what you're saying and realize what's happening to
you.

Do this:

Open a message in folder view by double-clicking on the message.

In the view folder window, go to the 'view' menu and select the
message list. A message list for the folder opened will appear. The
toolbar shortcuts to move to previous and next messages go by this
message listing which as you will realize works independently of the
main window message listing.

Again an unintuitive setup. What would help is if the message being view
in the view folder window would be correspondingly highlighted in the
the main TB window.

==8<===
> So...the direction of movement is always counter-intuitive, and
> furthermore, sometimes I am moved to an adjacent message, sometimes
> not.

> I hope this makes sense. This is all hard to put into words.

I am quite sure that your problem is as I just described. :)

Use the message list in the view folder window and check what I've
been saying and you'll see what I mean.


-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> A mainframe: The biggest PC peripheral available. <<<
*---*
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Re: About "create a new message" button

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Wednesday, October 20, 1999, 10:38:10 AM (-5 GMT), Patrice scribbled:

>   What is the role of the arrow near the "create a new message"
>   button in the toolbar.
>   It makes nothing when I click on.

>   Could you help me

If you open your address book where hopefully you'll have some
addresses entered by now, you'll see a column marked 'favourite' with
a little box for each message. If you tick any address as favorite by
clicking in the little box, it will show up in a drop down menu when
you click on that little arrow beside the 'create a new message'
button.

Hope that helps. :)

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> Locked coathanger in car. Good thing I had a key. <<<
*---*
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Re: (No Subject)

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Friday, October 22, 1999, 10:28:49 AM (-5 GMT), Steve scribbled:

   
> Friday, October 22, 1999, 2:25:49 AM, Marck wrote:
>> Message  times are internationally corrected and usually work fine for
>> sorting.  Individual  PC  system  clocks,  however,  are  a  law  unto
>> themselves ;-).

> 
> Always good to have a tool to reset your PC's clock to one of the tier 2
> servers.  Personally I have my server syncing with 3-4 tier 2 servers and all
> my other machines sync off it.  I generally don't see more than 1-2 seconds of
> drift on any of my machines.
> 

True. Horas is a nice little utility that does this for me. The
creation times for messages to this list are so helter skelter that I
sort by received time which does a better job. A whole bunch of
messages may have the same time but the order in which they're listed
reflects the order in which TBUDL server got the messages.

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> Make it as simple as possible, but no simpler. <<<
*---*
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Re: (No Subject)

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Friday, October 22, 1999, 11:18:44 AM (-5 GMT), Steve scribbled:

   
> Friday, October 22, 1999, 9:11:57 AM, Ali wrote:
>> messages may have the same time but the order in which they're listed
>> reflects the order in which TBUDL server got the messages.

> Well, in theory, yeah.  However, it is possible that, say, two messages
> come in and while the first one is stuck on some delivery for some reason the
> other zips through and so your server would get the 2nd message before the
> 1st.  The most accurate would be that sorting be the received time will
> reflect the order your ISPs server got the messages in.  :)

That's correct.

However, in reality, you're theory doesn't seem to occur that often
because I get a message listing that far more accurately reflects true
chronology of the messages than when using the message creation times.
Replies come after messages as they should etc. :)

Why aren't there more errors as there probably should be when using
the received time? Is it because the messages are all about the same
size leading to no significant holdups with one message as opposed to
another or is it that it's rare for two messages to arrive on the
TBUDL server at the same time.

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> Point not found. A)bort, R)eread, I)gnore. <<<
*---*
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Re: Clock syncing

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Friday, October 22, 1999, 10:19:07 PM (-5 GMT), Thomas scribbled:

==8<===

> Let me make myself look stupid: Where can I donwload such a
> clock-syncronizer? Is it freeware? And does it work for LAN's as well
> (Novell Netware)?

'Horas' which I use isn't freeware. It's available at:

  http://www.basta.com/ProdHoras.htm

  Costs $15.

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> Oxymoron: Sweet Pickle. <<<
*---*
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Re: Missing Attachments

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Friday, October 22, 1999, 10:13:06 PM (-5 GMT), Leif scribbled:

> Take another look at the massage in question. Do you see any tabs on
> the bottom of the message in preview mode? If so, click on the other
> tab(s) to see if it is there. If someone sends me an HTML message
> with an attachment, TB displays the HTML message, but I must click
> on the "1" tab to actually see the plain message with the
> attachments.

> Hopefully, this is the case, if not then I'm not sure what the problem
> is. Maybe you could post the headers to the list so we can try and see
> if something is wrong there.

Couldn't it be something as simple as the fact that he needs to toggle
the view attachments switch setting it to the correct choice.

 View/Attached Files/View Always
 View Automatically *
 Hide
-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> Oxymoron: Shooting blanks. <<<
*---*
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Re: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Friday, October 22, 1999, 10:34:09 PM (-5 GMT), Steve scribbled:

> Not to mention that with the common trend of trying to stuff
>everything into single applications people who *like* to use small,
>specialized applications are constantly switching as their current >
>favorites grow to "compete".

That's very true. ICQ is very bloated now, providing you with all
sorts of fandangles that are unnecessary because the functionality is
already provided with other applications that are on most users
systems. So is getright and I ignored zipmagics upgrade which is also
trying to do everything (they'll soon include a little antivirus
program for heavens sake.

>> For instance, here is my software use:
> For comparison here is my list for Linux then Windows.  ;)

>> Mail  TB
> L: Mutt
> W: TB!, PMMail

>> Usenet News   Agent
> L: SLRN
> W: nothing (would be, uhm, XNews, I think)
 ^
 That's a good one though it's an online
 newsreader. Not much offline reading
 functionality built in.


>> Browser   Opera
> L: Netscape, Lynx
> W: Opera

>> FTP   Cute FTP
> L: lftp
> W: LeechFTP

>> D/L Manager   Getright
> N/A (FTP everything possible)

>> Pic ViewerACDSee
> L: gtksee
> W: ACDSee

>> TelnetCRT 3.0
> L: telnet, ssh
> W: TeraTerm Pro w/TTSSH extentions

>> IM/chat   ICQ
> L: licq, micq
> W: ICQ

>> Chat  mIRC
> L: BitchX
> W: Xircon

>> Clipboard Clipmate
> N/A
I use clipcache here.

>> Text  Textpad 4
> L: vim
> W: vim
> (as an aside, vim is also my mail editor on Linux, I'd like it to be on TB! as
> TB!'s editor only has real-time spell checking going for it, and it is also my
> news editor and my programming editor.  IE, Windows forces me to use 4
> different editors with different keybindings and capabilities.  Unix lets me
> pick one editor that does it all and does it damned good.  *That* is a prime
> example of using specialized programs for the task at hand.

NoteTabPro and WinEdt are great.


> I'm sure mine differs as well.  I try to go with free software whenever
> possible.  That is why I use TeraTerm Pro instead of SecureCRT.  TTP with
> TTSSH extenstions has the same feature set that I need as SecureCRT and costs
> $99 less.  Aside from Opera, PMMail (which I no longer really use) & Quicken98
> there isn't much software on the Windows side that I've paid for and I don't
> think there is any in which I am violating the license.

There's a lot of functionality required to make newsreading effective.
It doesn't simply entail making TB support the NNTP protocol. Once
newsreading is included, TB developers would be busy trying to make
the newsreading functionality worthwhile and ignoring the refinement
of the e-mail manager which is what the app was originally designed to
do. Leave me out of that. I used Agent for my e-mail management before
TB! but stopped because it simply didn't manage my mail as effectively
as TB did. The Agent developers refused to create too much software
bloat and I appreciate them for that.

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> Oxymoron: Standard deviation. <<<
*---*
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Re: Date Presentation [was Re[2]: Clock syncing]

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Saturday, October 23, 1999, 1:34:03 AM (-5 GMT), Philippe scribbled:

>   I'd  like  to  have  the  possibility in a Reply to have the date
>   in reference to UTC (as we can find it in the Kludges).

>   See the exemple below (one of the last mails of Steve Lamb) :

>   The  real  date of the message of Steve Lamb is : "Date: Fri, 22 Oct
>   1999  22:47:02  -0700" which is transformed in Saturday, October 23,
>   1999, 7:47:02 AM in UTC +0200 (where I live).

>   Now, what is the real date of the message of Thomas 

>   Indeed  it is (from the kludges) :  "Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 11:19:07
>   +0800"

>   But if I do a reply to the message of Tomas, the date I obtain is :
>   "Saturday, October 23, 1999, 5:19:07 AM, Thomas Fernandez wrote:"

>   These  two  dates  are  quite differents from : "Friday, October 22,
>   1999, 8:19:07 PM"

>   How can I do ?

I don't like the way TB does it either. What it actually does is
transform the senders time to your time, correcting using the relative
GMT. That's reasonable for listing by creation time but the problem is
as you say. When you choose to reply to the message, it's your time
and not the senders that's placed in the intro line. This confused a
few of my correspondents when I first started using TB. They quite
rightly indicated that they didn't send the message at the stated time
and I had to be clarifying.

What, I've done is to place in my templates my GMT, and in so doing,
put the stated time in perspective. When the sender sees the GMT and
makes his corrections, then he'll see that the time is in fact
correct. I, however, dislike this since the message is a reply to the
sender and hence it's more appropriate to state the original message
creation time in his/her time zone.

-- 
Regards,
 -=Ali=-   

   >>> $$$ not found -- (A)bort (R)efinance (B)ankrupt <<<
*---*
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Re: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Saturday, October 23, 1999, 5:00:37 AM (-5 GMT), Steve scribbled:

>> COOPERATE with TheBat the Newsreader. The TWO SEPARATE PROGRAMS
>> would

> You mean like PMMail and PMINews?

Hey, I liked that combo in my OS/2 days. They were quite separate
products however. All they shared was an interface, very similar in
appearance to ease culture shock I guess.

>> Better than running two programs separately, IMHO.

> Why!?  While they share some technical specifications they are handled
> quite differently.

They work differently. They were similar only with respect to basic
customization features.

> There are plenty of combined applications out there.  If you
> really feel the need, please, use them.  Don't screw up this email
> client.  After having used 5 email clients extensively (IE, more
> than one continuos month at a shot) in my internet career (pine,
> pmmail/2, pmmail98, mutt, TB!) and evaluating damn near every other
> one I'd really like, just once, to have a client I like not have
> people push to have news in it.  Pine has it in it, mutt users have
> hacked it into it, PMMail/2 spawned PMInews (which flopped despite
> being a kick ass news reader)...

There's no doubt a tradeoff with the two in one combo and that's
functionality. I'm yet to meet the beast that does both as effectively
as two well developed specialized clients.

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> "Instant gratification takes too long." - Carrie Fisher <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
*---*

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Re: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Saturday, October 23, 1999, 8:32:53 AM (-5 GMT), Marck scribbled:

AM>> So is getright
> ...
 D/L Manager   Getright

> Just  out  of  interest  - I've just discovered a new one, having used
> both GoZilla (mostly) and GetRight (sometimes) for some time. This one
> is  called  NetVampire    and  works really
> well.  It's freeware and, a bonus for me, works perfectly for both FTP
> and HTTP D/Ls through WinGate. I haven't been able to persuade GoZilla
> to  do FTP nor GetRight to do HTTP via WinGate, but NetVampire handled
> both "straight out of the box".

Again. I'm happy with specialised apps for both. Getright handles my
browser invoked downloads and CuteFTP, I use for FTP uploading and
downloading from specific sites such as my Geocities account and
Ritlabs etc.

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> Oxymoron: Rising Deficits. <<<
*---*
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Re: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Saturday, October 23, 1999, 10:33:34 AM (-5 GMT), Marck scribbled:

AM>> Again. I'm happy with specialised apps for both. Getright handles
AM>> my browser invoked downloads and CuteFTP, I use for FTP uploading
AM>> and downloading from specific sites such as my Geocities account
AM>> and Ritlabs etc.

> You  misunderstand  - when D/L'ing from a browser, you *can* be hit by
> either  HTTP or FTP protocol these days - you never know .. apart from
> scrutinising  the  link  before  clicking  it.

I haven't had problems with Getright handling either ftp or http
downloads when invoked via a browser. What version were you using at
the time? Because you have to go out of your way at times to find out
whether or not it's http or ftp, Getright's fine since it deals with
both nicely.

When I know that I'll be dealing with ftp, I use CuteFTP. See what I
mean?

> I use WS_FTP for "real" FTP. :-)

OK.

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> Do not believe in miracles -- rely on them. <<<
*---*
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Re: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Saturday, October 23, 1999, 11:49:33 AM (-5 GMT), Thomas scribbled:

> I find it very usable but awfully slow. For larger FTP's (and with
> my baud rate, each new version of TB qualifies), I telnet into my
> own account, "get" the file via unix' ftp command onto the home
> directory on my ISP's server (high baud rate), and then use WS_FTP
> to get it from my local server onto my PC. Sounds complicated, but
> in the end is faster. ;-)

A most interesting undertaking. Don't you require special privileges
to do this, i.e., downloading files to your ISP's home directory?

Otherwise it sounds like a neat way of dealing with the connection
speed when downloading files.

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> Waiter, there's no fly in my soup! - Kermit <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
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Re: OT: GetRight et al (was Re[2]: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?)

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Saturday, October 23, 1999, 12:36:04 PM (-5 GMT), Marck scribbled:

> Through  WinGate?  It won't for me - not with the configuration I
> have here.  But,  like  I  say, NetVampire seems to work well while
> neither GoZilla nor GetRight work properly *for me* through WinGate.

> On  a  direct  connection,  I know that GoZilla and GetRight both
work > well. I just don't have one available most times.

I see. :)

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> Data convinces the Pepsi machine that Coke is better! <<<
*---*
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Re: Date Presentation [was Re[2]: Clock syncing]

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Saturday, October 23, 1999, 12:41:33 PM (-5 GMT), Marck scribbled:

AM>>> What,  I've  done  is  to place in my templates my GMT, and in so
AM>>> doing,  put  the stated time in perspective. When the sender sees
AM>>> the  GMT  and makes his corrections, then he'll see that the time
AM>>> is in fact correct. I, however, dislike this since the message is
AM>>> a  reply  to  the sender and hence it's more appropriate to state
AM>>> the original message creation time in his/her time zone.

PG>> Thank for the idea : I've added (UTC +0200) to my template. I hope
PG>> I'll  think  about  changing  it when we will change of hour (this
PG>> night ?)

PG>> But,  of course, it doesn't resolve the 2nd level quoting, and I'd
PG>> like to have the option to stay completely in UTC

> Just  a thought ... couldn't %REGEXPTEXT be used in the reply template
> to  pick  out  the  Date:  header  and  show the date in its' original
> format?

Don't know but 

I'm all ears of course. :)))

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> Never accept a drink from a urologist. <<<
*---*
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Re: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Saturday, October 23, 1999, 7:31:39 PM (-5 GMT), Steve scribbled:

>>> W: nothing (would be, uhm, XNews, I think)
>>  ^
>>  That's a good one though it's an online
>>  newsreader. Not much offline reading
>>  functionality built in.

> The one I was looking at used SLRN style score files (a requirement) and
> did have nice offline capability.  So most likely, if you're right, it wasn't
> XNews.  It also was free.

I have a newsreader called X-News installed on machine my machine *at
present*. It is a free newsreader as you say. The author explicitly
states in the 'readme' file that X-News is not designed for offline
reading and for those who intended to do a lot of offline reading, he
recommended Agent of Gravity. You are able to save message bodies
between online sessions (though this is not a default setting) and can
first manually retrieve messages and then read them offline. You are
switch from on line to off line as you wish as well. This is unlike
Gravity and Agent where the functionality for allowing offline reading
are better.

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> Daddy, what does FORMATTING DRIVE C: mean? <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
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Re: The Bat! - bug report

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Sunday, October 24, 1999, 3:35:42 AM (-5 GMT), Marck scribbled:

==8<===

>   Steps to reproduce the bug:
> Use  auto-format  when  editing  a  reply.  You're  bound to hit it
> sometime! It's almost impossible not to. ;-)

> Seriously though, just reply with Auto-format on and try typing in
> a line above a quoted paragraph.

But Mark, many have mentioned this problem before and have been told
that it's a feature and not a bug. ;-) I don't like it at all, but it
would seem that the autoformat designates separate paragraphs by the
fact that they're separated by a blank line and nothing else. The fact
that one is a quoted paragraph and one isn't doesn't matter. If you
start typing just above a paragraph, the paragraph text gets rewrapped
into yours.

Interestingly, I have a text editor called Winedt, that's written in
Delphi. It can be setup to behave in the same fashion as TB's editor
autoformat feature. So, I have to agree that it's a most unusual
feature but one at that.

When you get caught, extricate yourself with the undo feature
(alt+backspace). If you try to delete what you typed and manually
rearrange, it often makes matters worse.

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> If your attack is going well, then it's an ambush.. <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
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Re: Keyboard shortcut

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Sunday, October 24, 1999, 2:49:16 AM (-5 GMT), Patrice scribbled:

==8<===

>   Is there a keyboard Shortcuts list somewhere on the web for TB!? I'm
>   searching to jump to next unread mail even threads are viewed by
>   reference in mailing list.

Here's one attached.


-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> I didn't write this; a very complex macro did. <<<
*---*
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 SHORTCUT2.zip

Re: Cant change my email address

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Monday, October 25, 1999, 10:37:30 AM (-5 GMT), Kevin scribbled:

> Has anyone reported this one, or does anyone else get this behavior
> from 1.36?

> 1) When I change my email address for an account in the account properties
>(both normal and return address) it doesn't change.  When I create a
>new email or reply and the old address is still showing up in the FROM,
>REPLYTO and other fields.  I even shut down The Bat! and started it up
>again and it is still remembering the old email address.

> 2) I know this worked in 1.35 but I can't seem to get it to work in 1.36. I
>have, for instance, a template with the following:

Sorry, but here, everything works as you say that it should.

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
*---*

Re: bug for new mails

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Monday, October 25, 1999, 10:57:59 AM (-5 GMT), Roel scribbled:

>   (this happens under 1.35, don't know about 1.36)

>   when you've got a folder-specific template for new mails, and in
>   that template you've specified a 'to'-adress (like my folder for
>   this list), when you double-click on an email-adress to send
>   somebody a mail, the folder-template kicks out the adress and
>   replaces it...

>   I consider this a bug, since I double-clicked on an email-adress, i
>   didn't click on 'new mail' in the toolbar...

When I do what you describe, the e-mail address that I double click on
is placed in the to: field as well as the to: address specified in the
templates.

If you generate a new message using the address book or the favorites
menu, then only the address book's/favorites menu's address appears in
the to: field. The specified address in the template is suppressed as
it really should be IMHO. I don't really know why this doesn't happen
when you invoke a new message when double-clicking on an e-mail
address in a message body. A bug? I would tend to think so since what
happens is inconsistent and inconsistent for no discernible reason.

-- 
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 -=Ali=-   

   >>> Hit any user to continue. <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
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Re: You're banned !

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Monday, October 25, 1999, 12:09:54 PM (-5 GMT), Steve scribbled:

>> We are sorry to inform you that your e-mail
>> ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) has been banned. This means that
>> everytime you try to send us e-mail - you will get this reply
>> AUTOMATICLY!

>Ooo, ooo, ban me too, ban me too!  M!!  BAN ME!!!

ROTFLMAO@$%!!!

PS// Let me wipe the tears.  

-- 
Regards,
 -=Ali=-   

   >>> Read what I mean, not what I write. <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
*---*

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Re: AB file format, part 2

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Monday, October 25, 1999, 12:42:08 PM (-5 GMT), Chris scribbled:

   
> OK.  I've APPARANTLY been successfully unsubscribed from this
> trash, but I still continue to receive this now spam.  Please remove
> me from this list ASAP as I no longer need any exposure to this now
> waste of disk space!  I'm setting up an auto-delete filter in my
> VERY functional mail program that is NOT The Bat.  Learn how to run
> a mailing list and create a useful functional program, then maybe
> i'll be interested.


Get lost.

We can do without your spam as well. Don't make matters worse.

Don't have a nice day. LOL


-- 
Regards,
 -=Ali=-   

   >>> STUPIDITY is NOT a HANDICAP! Park elsewhere! <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
*---*

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Re: You're banned !

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Monday, October 25, 1999, 1:04:16 PM (-5 GMT), Denis scribbled:

SL>>Ooo, ooo, ban me too, ban me too!  M!!  BAN ME!!!

>Could you please tell in a few words what does BAN mean?
>Are we in antispam lists again? Does it relate to spam issues at
>all?
   
To ban from the list means to disallow the user in question from being
allowed to post messages to the list. I think in this case it also
means that he'll not receive posted messages as well. It's an imposed
unsubscription authorized by the list providers. :)

-- 
Regards,
 -=Ali=-   

   >>> "One martini is alright, two is too many, three is not enough." 
   - James Thurber, American humorist (1894-1961) <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
*---*

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Re: You're banned !

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Monday, October 25, 1999, 1:04:16 PM (-5 GMT), Denis scribbled:

> To ban from the list means to disallow the user in question from being
> allowed to post messages to the list.  I think in this case it also
> means that he'll not receive posted messages as well.  It's an imposed
> unsubscription authorized by the list providers.  :)


Oh, and another thing .. this prohibitive action is *legal*, in
that the list controller has ultimate control over who the subscribers
are.

-- 
Regards,
 -=Ali=-   

   >>> "One martini is alright, two is too many, three is not enough." 
   - James Thurber, American humorist (1894-1961) <<<
*---*
 Using The Bat! 1.36 on Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 5)
*---*

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Re: THE BAT! Will it be a newsreader option ?

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,

On Monday, October 25, 1999, 1:22:47 PM (-5 GMT), Paula scribbled:

>> This is where I think you will find the most disagreement. The
>> majority of the list members ... Felt very strongly against
>> incorporating other functions like news reading, and even HTML into
>> TB.

> I think that the list members as a whole are probably not very
> representative of the general user community and those who post even
> less so. People who participate on mailing lists about software tend to
> be more computer-oriented than most people.

This is true in general. Although there are many who posts questions
here, the nature of which would indicate that they aren't as computer
oriented as you seem to imply.

> People who express a desire for integrated functionality are routinely
> hooted down on mailing lists and newsgroups, so that I suspect that even
> among those who might be participating, they might not be inclined to
> express their views.

Yes, I have to agree with this. I tend to send the suggestions which I
have no doubt about being of benefit to me and other users, straight
to Ritlabs. Others, I post here if it's not of any real consequence or
if it's of questionable benefit. I can certainly do without the
condescending 'hooting down' that some suggestions generate.
Suggestions are hardly ever pleasing to everyone and we should
respectfully keep this in mind.

>> Yes Outlook and Communicator package all that stuff together, but they
>> are both bloated pigs of software that don't do their jobs very well.
>> A certain phrase comes to mind when thinking about these two software
>> packages. "Jack of all trades, master of none."

>> I would much rather use separate pieces of software that are "masters"
>> than one kludged together bloated pig that can do a little bit of
>> everything.

> The other side of this argument is that the vast majority of users use,
> will use, and probably need only a fraction of the capability of a
> program. They don't need nor care about their software being master of
> anything. They also don't think or care about "bloat".

This again is true. I have tried to put this small point across to
certain techies but their general reaction is that the 'don't need and
don't care for technical functionality' mentality is borne of
ignorance and unwillingness to learn rather than of a genuine desire
or position, for that matter, based on rational reasoning.

A lot of this learning of another interface can be eased by
consistency, of which there's is indeed a lot of already, on a basic
level in TB, and is a direct issue to the basic user anyway. The
keyboard shortcuts leave a lot to be desired in terms of consistency
but this point has been brought up on numerous occasions.

Be that as it may, I don't see why The Bat! should be made to be like
all the other products out there, especially if it's gaining a
profitable userbase as is, with it's intended development roadmap as a
specialized e-mail only client. If one wishes for a news and e-mail
integrated app which is a master of neither or one, then there are
many solutions out there that fits the bill already.

I can understand users, who find TB great as is, feeling squirmy when
these sorts of suggestions crop up, because they feel that they've
managed to find an 'oasis' of an app that is not like so many of the
other monolithic, bloated, multifunctional types. They therefore tend
to get a bit forceful in dowsing these 'unwelcome' suggestions.

>> For instance, here is my software use: (15 programs)

> That's 15 programs with 15 different interfaces to learn and remember,
> often for tasks that are not performed that frequently. The commonality
> of interfaces and basic functions has benefits that can't be totally
> dismissed out of hand. In an office environment, this means less
> training costs, less support costs. I believe it was the desire for this
> intergration in a corporate setting that primarily motivated MS and
> Netscape to add and expand the news reader capabilities of their
> mailers. For home users, it's been my experience that many, maybe most,
> prefer integrated applications, because they don't want to have to deal
> with learning and maintaining many different applications. Plus there is
> the cost. When I got tired of NS crashing on me all the time and patched
> together my own suite of internet applications, it ended up costing me a
> couple hundred dollars total.

Agreed!!

> Exactly. It is a niche market that appreciates and wants these
> small, fast, highly specialized products.  I don't know how RIT Labs
> envisions the market for TB, but they seem to wish it to be used by
> businesses. If so, then a companion news reader might be a good
> idea, even if it does not have all the power of Agent or Gravity. I
> wouldn't use it myself, but I see where it would add to TB's
> competitiveness in a larger market.

I guess this is the crux of the matter and Ritlabs calls the shots.
It's a matter of which user types the