[Texascavers] RE: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!! - Bug fixes

[Minton, Mark]

Butch,

>It should work now, when I fixed the state problem on the register page, I 
>forgot to change something in the JavaScript validation and ended up with a 
>syntax error.

  Unfortunately, not completely.  Now I'm getting a state selection error 
again for Virginia.  VA shows up as my state, but I get an error that says 
"State Select: , State: VA".  Sigh.  A new error has also appeared.  Instead of 
Yes or No in the Display me on the Member list? option, it has my last name as 
my response.  However the registration did appear to go through when I 
submitted it the second time, so we'll see if I actually get approved and can 
edit my profile and see the Texas Caver.  Thanks for keeping on this.

Mark Minton

[Texascavers] UNTHAW

[Johnson, Russ (ATX)]

My likely futile attempt at changing the subject:
 
I cannot ravel the last 50 posts and remain unstupid, irregardless.
 
PRINT THESE 
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contronym
  
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_self-contradicting_words_in_English
 
Russ
Llano 

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Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :

[jerryatkin]

Interesting discussion.  Probably not to most readers, but educational 
nonetheless.

The number of postings and the rancor of the discussion lead to one very 
important point:  the membership considers this a rather important issue. While 
it's true that only a few vocal posters have lead this discussion, I believe 
that a lot of members have opinions one way or the other.  The issue of 
electronic vs hardcopy has been brought up several times before in the history 
of the TSA with decidedly heated results. It should have been no surprise to 
the TSA officers that it would be somewhat controversial to announce that the 
TxCvr was going electronic and not explain the details.  I read the minutes of 
the last meeting and they didn't even include the discussion of the issue. The 
minutes read:

"The TSA Needs Money – Alman suggested raising dues $5 per person and making it 
optional to receive the TEXAS CAVER only electronically (would save $5 per 
issue). Joe Ranzau brought up that it is a bad time to raise dues with the 
current economy. We have $7000 in the bank to cover another year in the red. 
Someone suggested printing less extra copies of the TEXAS CAVER to save costs. 
Alman says perhaps as an incentive the electronic copy could be longer than the 
hardcopy. Alman says in the next TEXAS CAVER he will propose the idea of 
offering it electronically instead of hardcopy for those interested, and see 
what the responses are. Alman will check with Butch on how it could be put 
on20the web site. It was agreed we do not need a vote on this."

As I read that, the issue was to be proposed and the responses tabulated. It 
seems we've come a bit further in the last 5 days than a simple proposal.  
Maybe the membership should have voted on the issue at the last meeting.

Several years ago, the general membership was balloted as to their preferences 
of electronic vs hardcopy for the Texas Caver and the results were 
approximately 50:50. Times change, but there are still quite a few people out 
there that love and cherish their paper copies. Their desires should not be 
lightly dismissed as old fashioned or silly.  They certainly should not be 
belittled.  ---  Your garandma might fight you if you try to take away her 
rocking chair.

Note to the TSA officers:  
1.) If you want to have more participation at TSA meetings, put together an 
agenda before the meeting and post it to  CaveTex (TexasCavers.com).
2.) Those that do not study the past are doomed to repeat it.  Read the old 
minutes from past meetings. It's your duty to know the history of your 
organization.
3.)  While it's always a good idea to promote savings and tout the great things 
that these savings might be better spent on, our collective TSA history has not 
supported this theory. It would be a better sell if the TSA did not have 
approximately $7000 in the bank, and could easily get back to a positive cash 
flow balance with a more prudent selection of printers and m
ailing options.  The TSA operated on a shoestring budget for almost 40 years 
(it once had a balance of $21 as I recall), and was a lot more robust and 
productive than today.  
4.)  Money is not the key challenge that the TSA has today.  It's what does the 
TSA want to become in order to better serve it's membership.
5.)  We actually lowered TSA dues in 2003 as theTexas Caver was not being 
printed on a regular basis.
6.)  The Secretary could expand a bit on some of the more important topics 
discussed at the TSA meetings when writing up the minutes.  e.g. In the 
Treasurer's Report, there was no mention of the actual balance in the TSA 
accounts, even though that was a central topic of the meeting.

Hang in there guys, there's nothing like on the job training.

Jerry.




-Original Message-
From: Charles Goldsmith 
To: Mixon Bill 
Cc: Cavers Texas 
Sent: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 7:09 pm
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] cost of Texas Caver



Bill, I won't speak to the costs, Mark A. will have to, he's been
oing the leg work.
However, Gill made an excellent point, aside from a very few that
on't have computers (and they are obviously not posting here), there
hould not be a hard copy printed and mailed at the cost of the TSA
rom the dues, that money should go elsewhere.
I would like to see 100% of our dues go to other things than
rinting/mailing our newsletter.
Charles
On Fri, Jan 16,
 2009 at 6:40 PM, Mixon Bill  wrote:
 I have gotten a quote from the printer I use for the Association for Mexican
 Cave Studies on an issue of the Texas Caver. For saddle-stitched in a cover
 printed both sides in full color and 24 inside b&w pages (_four more_ than
 are in the most recent TC), the quote for quantity between 150 and 249
 copies is $2.12 a copy plus $60 setup charges. The per-copy price changes by
 only about 5 cents for more or fewer. Assuming 200 copies, the setup charge
 comes to 30 cents a copy, for a printing cost of $2.42. Of course, this is
 in Kalamazoo, so you'd have to add maybe an

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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 20:18:09 -0600
Message-ID: <4be4573d0901161818h272b8f22n4ec6e34631eaa...@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] cost of Texas Caver
From: Charles Goldsmith 
To: Preston Forsythe 
Cc: "Mixon, Bill Mixon, Bill" 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

It doesn't appear so, the TSA membership voted othewise.

On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 7:43 PM, Preston Forsythe  wrote:
> Disagree.
>
> Many cavers prefer a hard copy. They want to read it as they do most
> magazines.
>
> Those printing and mailing costs seem very high to me. A 5 page 8.5 x 11
> newsletter with envelope can be mailed for 42 cents. The paper is cheap.

   - Message truncated -

Re: [Texascavers] cost of Texas Caver

[Charles Goldsmith]

It doesn't appear so, the TSA membership voted othewise.

On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 7:43 PM, Preston Forsythe  wrote:
> Disagree.
>
> Many cavers prefer a hard copy. They want to read it as they do most
> magazines.
>
> Those printing and mailing costs seem very high to me. A 5 page 8.5 x 11
> newsletter with envelope can be mailed for 42 cents. The paper is cheap.
>
> Preston
> =
> - Original Message - From: "Charles Goldsmith"
> 
> To: "Mixon Bill" 
> Cc: "Cavers Texas" 
> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] cost of Texas Caver
>
>
>> Bill, I won't speak to the costs, Mark A. will have to, he's been
>> doing the leg work.
>>
>> However, Gill made an excellent point, aside from a very few that
>> don't have computers (and they are obviously not posting here), there
>> should not be a hard copy printed and mailed at the cost of the TSA
>> from the dues, that money should go elsewhere.
>>
>> I would like to see 100% of our dues go to other things than
>> printing/mailing our newsletter.
>>
>> Charles
>>
>>
>

Re: [Texascavers] cost of Texas Caver

[Preston Forsythe]

Disagree.

Many cavers prefer a hard copy. They want to read it as they do most 
magazines.


Those printing and mailing costs seem very high to me. A 5 page 8.5 x 11 
newsletter with envelope can be mailed for 42 cents. The paper is cheap.


Preston
=
- Original Message - 
From: "Charles Goldsmith" 

To: "Mixon Bill" 
Cc: "Cavers Texas" 
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] cost of Texas Caver



Bill, I won't speak to the costs, Mark A. will have to, he's been
doing the leg work.

However, Gill made an excellent point, aside from a very few that
don't have computers (and they are obviously not posting here), there
should not be a hard copy printed and mailed at the cost of the TSA
from the dues, that money should go elsewhere.

I would like to see 100% of our dues go to other things than
printing/mailing our newsletter.

Charles

Re: [Texascavers] cost of Texas Caver

[Charles Goldsmith]

Bill, I won't speak to the costs, Mark A. will have to, he's been
doing the leg work.

However, Gill made an excellent point, aside from a very few that
don't have computers (and they are obviously not posting here), there
should not be a hard copy printed and mailed at the cost of the TSA
from the dues, that money should go elsewhere.

I would like to see 100% of our dues go to other things than
printing/mailing our newsletter.

Charles

On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 6:40 PM, Mixon Bill  wrote:
> I have gotten a quote from the printer I use for the Association for Mexican
> Cave Studies on an issue of the Texas Caver. For saddle-stitched in a cover
> printed both sides in full color and 24 inside b&w pages (_four more_ than
> are in the most recent TC), the quote for quantity between 150 and 249
> copies is $2.12 a copy plus $60 setup charges. The per-copy price changes by
> only about 5 cents for more or fewer. Assuming 200 copies, the setup charge
> comes to 30 cents a copy, for a printing cost of $2.42. Of course, this is
> in Kalamazoo, so you'd have to add maybe another $60 for shipping to Texas;
> I'll be generous and make it $2.75 in all.
>
> Now add maybe 5 cents for a mailing envelope and 2 cents for a mailing
> label. I don't know what postage actually is, but I'll guess for non-profit
> bulk rate it is 40 cents a copy. This brings us up to a grand total of $3.22
> for each copy of the Texas Caver mailed to a member. At four issues a year,
> we're talking $13. (You can do the arithmetic if there are more or fewer
> than 200 TSA members; it affects only the setup and shipping.)
>
> I'd say whoever is publishing the Texas Caver at a cost of $26 per member
> per year needs to do a bit of printer-shopping. I won't blame anybody for
> not wanting to deal with a printer in Kalamazoo four times a year, but deals
> not too much worse must be available locally (remember you've got that
> shipping cost as a cushion).
>
> I realize there are some free exchange copies mailed out that also cost the
> TSA something, and of course a small stock of additional copies for later
> sale (25, say) will be wanted, but still I think the TSA should be able to
> afford to send the Texas Caver to all its members under the present dues.
>
> Whether older issue should be on the Web and under what restrictions are
> separate questions.
>  -- Bill Mixon
> --
> You may "reply" to the address this message
> came from, but for long-term use, save:
> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
> AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
>
>
>
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>
>

[Texascavers] cost of Texas Caver

[Mixon Bill]

I have gotten a quote from the printer I use for the Association for  
Mexican Cave Studies on an issue of the Texas Caver. For saddle- 
stitched in a cover printed both sides in full color and 24 inside b&w  
pages (_four more_ than are in the most recent TC), the quote for  
quantity between 150 and 249 copies is $2.12 a copy plus $60 setup  
charges. The per-copy price changes by only about 5 cents for more or  
fewer. Assuming 200 copies, the setup charge comes to 30 cents a copy,  
for a printing cost of $2.42. Of course, this is in Kalamazoo, so  
you'd have to add maybe another $60 for shipping to Texas; I'll be  
generous and make it $2.75 in all.


Now add maybe 5 cents for a mailing envelope and 2 cents for a mailing  
label. I don't know what postage actually is, but I'll guess for non- 
profit bulk rate it is 40 cents a copy. This brings us up to a grand  
total of $3.22 for each copy of the Texas Caver mailed to a member. At  
four issues a year, we're talking $13. (You can do the arithmetic if  
there are more or fewer than 200 TSA members; it affects only the  
setup and shipping.)


I'd say whoever is publishing the Texas Caver at a cost of $26 per  
member per year needs to do a bit of printer-shopping. I won't blame  
anybody for not wanting to deal with a printer in Kalamazoo four times  
a year, but deals not too much worse must be available locally  
(remember you've got that shipping cost as a cushion).


I realize there are some free exchange copies mailed out that also  
cost the TSA something, and of course a small stock of additional  
copies for later sale (25, say) will be wanted, but still I think the  
TSA should be able to afford to send the Texas Caver to all its  
members under the present dues.


Whether older issue should be on the Web and under what restrictions  
are separate questions.

 -- Bill Mixon
--
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org



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[Texascavers] RE: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!! - Bug fixes

[Butch Fralia]

Mark,

 

It should work now, when I fixed the state problem on the register page, I
forgot to change something in the JavaScript validation and ended up with a
syntax error.

 

The strange characters are a result of PHP and MySQL database commands.  The
way around it is to change the character set to UTF-8.  I did that once and
ended up with a mess.  A few squigglies vs having to redo the website was a
no brainer for me.

 

Butch

 

 

From: Minton, Mark [mailto:mmin...@nmhu.edu] 
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 11:22 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com; bfra...@maverickgrotto.org
Subject: RE: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online - Bug fixes

 

Butch,

 

>You can now update your profile online and change the state on both
registration and your profile.

 

  It still doesn't work right for me.  Virginia is now accepted as my
state, but when I hit Confirm Registration, the same registration screen
pops back up.  There are no errors listed, but the registration won't go
through.  I tried it several times in both IE and Firefox.  There is also
some strange code at the top of the registration form:   (probably
irrelevant).

 

Mark Minton

[Texascavers] subscription and dues sorted out

[Gill Ediger]

At 02:56 PM 1/16/2009, Charles Goldsmith wrote:

Gill, I'll match it, $100 a year!

>> On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:22:16 -0500 mmin...@nmhu.edu wrote:
>> "You will pay $20 and use electronic version."
>
> I'd pay a TSA membership of $100 a year if they would just make an online
> copy of The CAVER


Thanks, Charles, that's the kind of attitude we need. But let me 
explain this $20 business to those few persistant readers who still 
don't seem to have gotten the point.


The idea of paying $20 to get an electronic version is not the point 
at all! The $20 you pay for TSA membership is for supporting TSA 
activities. The $20 IS NOT a subscription to The TEXAS CAVER. That is 
FREE. Let me say it again: The TEXAS CAVER is provided as a free 
service to TSA Members--the hard copy or the electronic version. 
Period. The $20 has not a damned thing to do with a subscription to 
anything. We had, at one time, a TC subscription and TSA dues, paid 
to different entities. Those two things--membership and the TC 
subscription--should never have gotten confused. The sad fact is, 
though, that as the production and mailing costs of The CAVER 
increased, more and more of the dues went into paying for it--to the 
point that it now doesn't.


The point is that there are a lot of better uses that can be made of 
TSA dues money than pissing it away on an antiquated system of 
information distribution just to satisfy somebody's traditional and 
outdated perogatives for a slick publication. Technology has brought 
us far enough forward that you can print out for very little money a 
better looking hard copy in the privacy of your own home than the TSA 
can afford to print and mail out to you anymore. What is the obvious 
course here? Who's not paying attention?


Remember, the TSA dues of $20 represents nothing more than TSA dues; 
it is not a subscription to The TEXAS CAVER and was never intended to 
be. That subscription is free and should continue to be.  Don't 
confuse the two or you will be confused.


Thanks for your attention,
--Ediger, again


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RE: [Texascavers] reduced dues for electronic CAVER

[Fritz Holt]

That's good news. I can't keep track of which caving organization purchases 
caves but I am guessing that it would take more than that to make a down 
payment on another one or to pay off an existing one. In that sense, I doubt 
that we are overly funded. I am amazed that we can do as much as we do with 
what we have.
Fritz

-Original Message-
From: Joe Ranzau [mailto:jran...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 4:51 PM
To: Fritz Holt
Cc: Gill Ediger; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] reduced dues for electronic CAVER

The TSA has over 6k in the bank...

Joe

j...@oztotl.com

Sent while mobile

On Jan 16, 2009, at 4:47 PM, Fritz Holt 
wrote:

> Hey, wait a minute, Bill. The Idea here is to put money into the
> coffers, not take it out.:)
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Gill Ediger [mailto:gi...@worldnet.att.net]
> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 4:27 PM
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: [Texascavers] reduced dues for electronic CAVER
>
> At 01:40 PM 1/16/2009, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
>> Um, we'll have to get back to you on that, Bill.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Mixon Bill [mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com]
>> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:42 PM
>> To: Cavers Texas
>> Subject: [Texascavers] reduced dues for electronic version
>>
>> Let's see. Currently the TSA spends, apparently, 130% of my dues
>> printing and mailing the Texas Caver. So if I opt to not receive it
>> printed and mailed, the TSA should _pay me_ $6 a year as my dues.
>> Right?
>
> Well, yow, Mixon. There's already that precident. It's sorta like the
> government bailing out the banks and such. They do a bad job of
> managing their money on account of a bad idea which they persist in
> driving forward into oblivion. Think we can put in for a little of
> that bail out money and get you your 6 bucks? Dudn't seem to be any
> strings attached. Have the Shrub bring some back to Texas with him.
>
> --Ediger
>
>
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Re: [Texascavers] reduced dues for electronic CAVER

[Joe Ranzau]

The TSA has over 6k in the bank...

Joe

j...@oztotl.com

Sent while mobile

On Jan 16, 2009, at 4:47 PM, Fritz Holt   
wrote:


Hey, wait a minute, Bill. The Idea here is to put money into the  
coffers, not take it out.:)


-Original Message-
From: Gill Ediger [mailto:gi...@worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 4:27 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] reduced dues for electronic CAVER

At 01:40 PM 1/16/2009, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:

Um, we'll have to get back to you on that, Bill.

-Original Message-
From: Mixon Bill [mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:42 PM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] reduced dues for electronic version

Let's see. Currently the TSA spends, apparently, 130% of my dues
printing and mailing the Texas Caver. So if I opt to not receive it
printed and mailed, the TSA should _pay me_ $6 a year as my dues.  
Right?


Well, yow, Mixon. There's already that precident. It's sorta like the
government bailing out the banks and such. They do a bad job of
managing their money on account of a bad idea which they persist in
driving forward into oblivion. Think we can put in for a little of
that bail out money and get you your 6 bucks? Dudn't seem to be any
strings attached. Have the Shrub bring some back to Texas with him.

--Ediger


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texascavers Digest 16 Jan 2009 22:49:02 -0000 Issue 691

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 16 Jan 2009 22:49:02 - Issue 691

Topics (messages 9935 through 9957):

The Caver and the TSA
9935 by: Linda Palit

Re: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online - Bug fixes
9936 by: Minton, Mark
9937 by: Lyndon Tiu
9941 by: Fritz Holt
9942 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
9945 by: George-Paul Richmann
9949 by: Fritz Holt

Re: Now Online
9938 by: Gill Ediger
9952 by: Charles Goldsmith

Re: TEXAS CAVER hard copies
9939 by: Fritz Holt
9940 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
9943 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com

reduced dues for electronic version
9944 by: Mixon Bill
9946 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com

Re: Help Needed at CBSP Saturday, January 17th
9947 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com

Re: TEXAS CAVER Online makes sense
9948 by: Louise Power
9950 by: Louise Power

Crystallization of Calcium Carbonate
9951 by: Minton, Mark

TC Clogged!
9953 by: dirtdoc.comcast.net

Do we know any one who lives near Orlando
9954 by: Matt Turner
9955 by: Joe Ranzau

reduced dues for electronic CAVER
9956 by: Gill Ediger
9957 by: Fritz Holt

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:


To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:


To post to the list, e-mail:



--
--- Begin Message ---
I am pleased there is so much interest in the Caver, and am hoping that 
interest is also in the TSA.  There are lots of new potential projects in the 
TSA, and much ongoing work with current projects.  There are volunteer 
positions available, chairs that are unfilled, and articles that need to be 
written.  Programs for the Spring Convention come from members also, so be sure 
to let the TSA officers know if you are willing to share what you have been 
doing in that way.  TSA sometimes suffers from lack of participation, but 
decisions sometimes have a way of reminding people that they are the TSA, and 
there are ways to work to have the organization reflect what you want.

Linda


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Butch,

>You can now update your profile online and change the state on both 
>registration and your profile.

  It still doesn't work right for me.  Virginia is now accepted as my 
state, but when I hit Confirm Registration, the same registration screen pops 
back up.  There are no errors listed, but the registration won't go through.  I 
tried it several times in both IE and Firefox.  There is also some strange code 
at the top of the registration form:   (probably irrelevant).

Mark Minton
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:22:16 -0500 mmin...@nmhu.edu wrote:
> There is also some strange code at the top of the registration form:
>  (probably irrelevant).

  

Subliminal message. Translated:

"You will pay $20 and use electronic version."

--
Lyndon Tiu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been chastised before on this matter but still think that a small 
increase in dues would be beneficial to the organization. I assume that the 
response will be that I am welcome to send in more if I choose.
Fritz

-Original Message-
From: Lyndon Tiu [mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 11:48 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online - Bug fixes

On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:22:16 -0500 mmin...@nmhu.edu wrote:
> There is also some strange code at the top of the registration form:
>  (probably irrelevant).

 

Subliminal message. Translated:

"You will pay $20 and use electronic version."

--
Lyndon Tiu

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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---

Be careful what you wish for, Fritz!8^)>


Mark




-Original Message-
From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:32 PM
To: Lyndon Tiu; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online - Bug
fixes

I have been chastised before on this matter but still think that a small
increase in dues would be beneficial to the organization. I assume that
the response will be that I am welcome to send in more if I choose.
Fritz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If it is to be increased, we should develop a methodology for future
increases. Lets have the price held constant in real terms by having
the normal price be determined by the CPI (consumer price index) and
then round to the nearest dollar.

That way, A) there wont be 20 years without a price increase robbing
TSA of valuable funds B) It will be expected and understandable by
cavers C) there wont eve

RE: [Texascavers] reduced dues for electronic CAVER

[Fritz Holt]

Hey, wait a minute, Bill. The Idea here is to put money into the coffers, not 
take it out.:)

-Original Message-
From: Gill Ediger [mailto:gi...@worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 4:27 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] reduced dues for electronic CAVER

At 01:40 PM 1/16/2009, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
>Um, we'll have to get back to you on that, Bill.
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Mixon Bill [mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com]
>Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:42 PM
>To: Cavers Texas
>Subject: [Texascavers] reduced dues for electronic version
>
>Let's see. Currently the TSA spends, apparently, 130% of my dues
>printing and mailing the Texas Caver. So if I opt to not receive it
>printed and mailed, the TSA should _pay me_ $6 a year as my dues. Right?

Well, yow, Mixon. There's already that precident. It's sorta like the
government bailing out the banks and such. They do a bad job of
managing their money on account of a bad idea which they persist in
driving forward into oblivion. Think we can put in for a little of
that bail out money and get you your 6 bucks? Dudn't seem to be any
strings attached. Have the Shrub bring some back to Texas with him.

--Ediger


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[Texascavers] reduced dues for electronic CAVER

[Gill Ediger]

At 01:40 PM 1/16/2009, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:

Um, we'll have to get back to you on that, Bill.

-Original Message-
From: Mixon Bill [mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:42 PM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] reduced dues for electronic version

Let's see. Currently the TSA spends, apparently, 130% of my dues
printing and mailing the Texas Caver. So if I opt to not receive it
printed and mailed, the TSA should _pay me_ $6 a year as my dues. Right?


Well, yow, Mixon. There's already that precident. It's sorta like the 
government bailing out the banks and such. They do a bad job of 
managing their money on account of a bad idea which they persist in 
driving forward into oblivion. Think we can put in for a little of 
that bail out money and get you your 6 bucks? Dudn't seem to be any 
strings attached. Have the Shrub bring some back to Texas with him.


--Ediger 



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Re: [Texascavers] Do we know any one who lives near Orlando

[Joe Ranzau]

Sleazeweasle lives in dem dar parts.

Joe

j...@oztotl.com

Sent while mobile

On Jan 16, 2009, at 4:15 PM, Matt Turner  wrote:


Or more importantly would be worth seeing?

Just found out I"m going to Orlando for the week of Feb 1st.

Matt Turner


"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a  
thought without accepting it." - Aristotle



"Empty pockets never held anyone back.Only empty heads and empty  
hearts can do that."- Norman Vincent Peale

[Texascavers] Do we know any one who lives near Orlando

[Matt Turner]

Or more importantly would be worth seeing?

Just found out I"m going to Orlando for the week of Feb 1st.
 Matt Turner 


"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without 
accepting it." - Aristotle


"Empty pockets never held anyone back.Only empty heads and empty hearts can do 
that."- Norman Vincent Peale 


  

[Texascavers] TC Clogged!

[dirtdoc]

Geeze!!! Turn my back for a moment and my email is, like, Totally Clogged!

Perhaps you can cut this thread down to continuing with concise meaningful 
comments.

Dirt Doc.

Re: [Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER Online makes sense 3

[Charles Goldsmith]

Totally agreed, you make very good points Gill.

On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 12:37 PM, Gill Ediger  wrote:
> At 10:51 AM 1/16/2009, you wrote:
>>
>> Gill, I'm guessing that they want to use the TexasCaver to promote the
>> membership, and that they are afraid that if they gave away the
>> TexasCaver, then a lot of the memberships will drop.
>
> On the contrary. Use The CAVER to promote membership among those who
> wouldn't otherwise join. It appears to all the independent cavers in Texas
> that the TSA doesn't care about them--ignores them totally, in fact. The
> CAVER should be the advertising medium for the TSA. It should be made
> available all cavers for free as a service (that is an important word, now)
> to all Texas cavers. Then, amongst all the trip reports and safety and
> equipment and technique and other caving information will be ads for the TSA
> Convention, board meetings, all the Project reports, and joining the TSA. If
> it's only $10 or $15 or even $20 you will probably double your membership,
> not reduce it. TSA membership should, of course, be pushed to all
> non-members at Grotto meetings, Projects, board meetings, and other TSA
> functions, as well as TCR and other events.
>
> --Ediger
>

Re: [Texascavers] RE: Now Online!!!!

[Charles Goldsmith]

Gill, I'll match it, $100 a year!

Charles

On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 12:58 PM, Gill Ediger  wrote:
> At 11:48 AM 1/16/2009, Lyndon Tiu wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:22:16 -0500 mmin...@nmhu.edu wrote:
>> Subliminal message. Translated:
>>
>> "You will pay $20 and use electronic version."
>
> I'd pay a TSA membership of $100 a year if they would just make an online
> copy of The CAVER available to anyone with a password. That password could
> be handed out at Grotto meetings, caving Project, conventions, TCR, and any
> place where cavers gather, as well as sent out on CaveTex and other caver
> forums to obvious caver members--to keep it out of the public domain as much
> as possible. If they had to register for it the TSA could create a database
> of all those cavers in the state that they don't even know about now. Some
> good percentage of those cavers would happily join the TSA and become
> contributors and participants and leaders instead of being treated as
> outcasts as they are now. And even if they didn't, the TSA would be
> absolutely no worse off than it is now--and freed from the cost of producing
> and mailing The TEXAS CAVER--icing on the cake.
>
> These are all positive suggestions that can in no way do harm to the TSA or
> Texas caving. Consider a positive attitude to go along with them.
>
> --Ediger
>
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
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>
>

[Texascavers] Crystallization of Calcium Carbonate

[Minton, Mark]

  For the scientifically inclined, there are recent articles in the journal Science about the mechanism by which calcium carbonate crystallizes.  If you do not have access to Science, you may be able to get it free by registering at .
 
Stable Prenucleation Calcium Carbonate Clusters 
Denis Gebauer, Antje Völkel, Helmut Cölfen
Science, v. 322, p. 1819 (2008)
 
See also
 
Now You See Them
Fiona C. Meldrum, Richard P. Sear
Science, v. 322, p. 1802 (2008)
 
  A less technical summary is available at .
 
Mark Minton

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RE: [Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER Online makes sense

[Louise Power]

Charles, You said
 
Gill, I'm guessing that they want to use the TexasCaver to promote the 
membership, and that they are afraid that if they gave away the TexasCaver, 
then a lot of the memberships will drop.Maybe it's time for TSA to revisit 
their mission statement. I assume that's what that statement is on the website, 
especially paragraph 2. To wit:
 





"Howdy!" from the members of the TSA.
The TSA is a not-for-profit organization that supports cave exploration and 
cave studies by cavers in and around the state of Texas. It is comprised of 
members and clubs (called Grottos). It is an internal organization of the 
National Speleological Society (NSS). 


The Texas Speleological Association was formed in 1956 to bring the widely 
dispersed cavers and caving organizations in Texas together as an Association 
in order to promote cooperation and to coordinate the caving activities within 
the state. The cavers and organizations have changed over the years; both have 
increased in number and diversity. The importance of the TSA as an Association 
has never been greater. If you care about Texas caving at all, if you care 
about the discovery and exploration of new caves, if you care about mapping, if 
you care about conservation, if you care about safety, if you care to meet 
other cavers, if you care to know more about caving, if you want to keep up 
with the latest developments in equipment and techniques, then it is important 
that you join and support the TSA, and subscribe to its publications. 


Membership in the TSA includes a subscription to The Texas Caver magazine. It 
also includes the Special Activities Newsletter when published for events like 
elections, etc.. 
 
Now from what I see after all those lofty ideas there's an "Oh yes, you also 
get The Texas Caver and the Activities Newsletter..."
 
So what is the real mission of TSA?
 
Kindly,
Louise
> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:51:44 -0600> From: wo...@justfamily.org> To: 
> gi...@worldnet.att.net> CC: texascavers@texascavers.com> Subject: Re: 
> [Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER Online makes sense> > Gill, I'm guessing that they 
> want to use the TexasCaver to promote the> membership, and that they are 
> afraid that if they gave away the> TexasCaver, then a lot of the memberships 
> will drop.> > So the big question comes, what value does TSA bring besides 
> the> publication? I've heard this question at other times, even when not> 
> discussing electronic versus printing issues.> > I don't have all of the 
> answers, but this is what I've seen:> > The TSA promotes Texas caving in many 
> ways, CBSP project, helping with> land acquisition, and donated money for 
> repairs at Honey Creek.> > I know there are a lot of other ways, and anyone 
> that complains should> attend the meetings and be vocal. Merely complaining 
> online isn't> going to cut it. The TSA membership voted, the decision has 
> been> made. And before anyone complains that they didn't vote on it, you> 
> know the answer to this, you should have been present.> > We all have our 
> opinions on the matter, we are entitled to them,> however, it doesn't mean 
> that we are right :)> > Charles> > On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 8:36 AM, Gill 
> Ediger  wrote:> > Charles is exactly right. The whole 
> idea of an online TEXAS CAVER is that it> > CAN be printed out (in color, no 
> less) and hard copy (and digitally)> > archived for a whole lot less money 
> than the cost of printing and mailing. I> > cannot imagine reading an 
> important digital publication on line. I almost> > always print them out, 
> collate them, and read the hard copy--with my feet up> > on the desk. 
> Everybody has a printer and damned near everybody has internet.> > Those that 
> don't can have a friend do it. The CAVER can be bigger, in color,> > more 
> friendly to submit to, timely, and cheaper to produce and distribute.> > It 
> is one of the most important positive decisions the TSA has made in a> > long 
> time. The technology is here and the rewards will be great. The only> > thing 
> missing is that The TEXAS CAVER is still an elite subscription> > newsletter 
> online which will not be readily available to all of the Texas> > cavers who 
> would benefit from it and the TSA (and all of Texas caving) will> > suffer 
> the consequences of not having those cavers as readers and> > contributors. 
> They will miss out on the important information published in> > The CAVER and 
> and the subscribers will miss out on the information which> > would normally 
> be contributed by those barred from 2-way access to The> > CAVER. The TSA is 
> not an association of Texas cavers; it is an association> > of dues payers 
> beating a dying dog. It can accomplish its goals only by> > reaching out to 
> and including ALL Texas cavers in its coverage. The internet> > offers a 
> cheap and simple and effective way to do that. The first step has> > been 
> taken. It's too bad that money rather than intellect prompted that> > change. 

RE: [Texascavers] RE: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!! - Bug fixes

[Fritz Holt]

George-Paul,
Regardless of how the annual dues proposal is calculated, it still equates to a 
dues increase of which I am in favor.
Fritz

-Original Message-
From: George-Paul Richmann [mailto:gprichm...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:43 PM
To: mark.al...@l-3com.com
Cc: Fritz Holt; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online - Bug fixes

If it is to be increased, we should develop a methodology for future
increases. Lets have the price held constant in real terms by having
the normal price be determined by the CPI (consumer price index) and
then round to the nearest dollar.

That way, A) there wont be 20 years without a price increase robbing
TSA of valuable funds B) It will be expected and understandable by
cavers C) there wont ever need to have a price 'jump'

My 2.0325 cents!

-GP

On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 1:32 PM,   wrote:
>
> Be careful what you wish for, Fritz!8^)>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com]
> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:32 PM
> To: Lyndon Tiu; texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online - Bug
> fixes
>
> I have been chastised before on this matter but still think that a small
> increase in dues would be beneficial to the organization. I assume that
> the response will be that I am welcome to send in more if I choose.
> Fritz
>
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>



--
George-Paul Richmann
(513) 490-3100
gprichm...@gmail.com


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RE: [Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER Online makes sense

[Louise Power]

I would also say that there are those of us no longer in Texas, not a TSA 
member (but former TSA for many years), who are still interested in what goes 
on there. > Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 08:36:57 -0600> To: 
texascavers@texascavers.com> From: gi...@worldnet.att.net> Subject: 
[Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER Online makes sense> > Charles is exactly right. The 
whole idea of an online TEXAS CAVER is > that it CAN be printed out (in color, 
no less) and hard copy (and > digitally) archived for a whole lot less money 
than the cost of > printing and mailing. I cannot imagine reading an important 
digital > publication on line. I almost always print them out, collate them, > 
and read the hard copy--with my feet up on the desk. Everybody has a > printer 
and damned near everybody has internet. Those that don't can > have a friend do 
it. The CAVER can be bigger, in color, more friendly > to submit to, timely, 
and cheaper to produce and distribute. It is > one of the most important 
positive decisions the TSA has made in a > long time. The technology is here 
and the rewards will be great. The > only thing missing is that The TEXAS CAVER 
is still an elite > subscription newsletter online which will not be readily 
available to > all of the Texas cavers who would benefit from it and the TSA 
(and > all of Texas caving) will suffer the consequences of not having those > 
cavers as readers and contributors. They will miss out on the > important 
information published in The CAVER and and the subscribers > will miss out on 
the information which would normally be contributed > by those barred from 
2-way access to The CAVER. The TSA is not an > association of Texas cavers; it 
is an association of dues payers > beating a dying dog. It can accomplish its 
goals only by reaching out > to and including ALL Texas cavers in its coverage. 
The internet > offers a cheap and simple and effective way to do that. The 
first > step has been taken. It's too bad that money rather than intellect > 
prompted that change. Let's see if common sense can move it make the > next 
step to include all Texas cavers in on the benefits of being a > part of the 
Association by offering them access to both read and > contribute to the 
valuable contents of The TEXAS CAVER.> > I must ask those in the TSA: Why do 
you not want to reach everybody > who is caving in Texas with your safety and 
conservation message and > to promote good and smart caving practices among 
them and induce more > submission to The TEXAS CAVER? Why? The mechanism is in 
place; let's > use it to reach out to those non-participants. Draw them in with 
a > positive influence and counteract any bad caving habits they may > 
have--all at no cost to anyone.> > --Ediger> > At 10:36 PM 1/15/2009, Charles 
Goldsmith wrote:> >Now, to the issue at hand, I disagree, if anyone wants a 
hard copy,> >have it printed, you'll come out a bit more expensive, but that 
way> >the rest of us don't have to pay for the additional cost via higher> 
>subscriptions.> >> >The TSA is moving in the correct direction.> >> >As far as 
making sure these are always available, until time ends,> >proper planning of 
the TSA with this is prudent.> >> >Multiple off-site storage of the files 
should be mandatory, and> >accurate accounting of the off-site files.> >> 
>Requiring everyone to pay more for a hard-copy is selfish and not> >prudent in 
these economical times. I can afford for higher dues, do I> >want them, no. Not 
everyone could afford them, we should probably> >talk about dropping them a bit 
to help everyone out.> >> >If you don't have a printer, you can take the pdf to 
many printing> >shops to have it printed. If you insist on having one mailed to 
you> >in hard copy, perhaps the TSA will consent with doing a special rate> 
>for those, paying a higher dues to cover the printing/mailing cost.> >This 
should not be imposed on everyone though, only to those who elect> >to pay that 
cost.> > > 
-> Visit 
our website: http://texascavers.com> To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com> For additional commands, e-mail: 
texascavers-h...@texascavers.com> 

RE: [Texascavers] Help Needed at CBSP Saturday, January 17th

[Mark . Alman]

 

Do y'all need a break from the chatter concerning the TC and actually
want to have fun and go caving, like I do!?

 

 This is just a reminder that the Girl Scouts of the Austin/SA area are
once again having their large Council wide campout at CBSP this weekend.

 

If you have nothing to do and are looking to get underground we could
use you for guides to escort the girls and their parents thru a few
caves at CBSP, tomorrow, 

Saturday, January 17th.

 

Are you up for a weekend of caving, being fed lunch and dinner (For
Free?!), absolutely no work, 

deluxe accommodations at the Conference Center, and a chance to hang out
with some fun, enthusiastic, energetic kids?

 

I thought you would be!

 

We have helped with this the last two years and it has been a lot of
fun!

 

Last year, we visited Turtle Shell, Cicurina, and Gorman Caves and were
fed exceptionally well by the Scouts.

 

If you'd like to help out and generate interest and attract some future
Texas cavers, please contact me offline immediately.

 

 

 

Thanks!

 

 

Mark

RE: [Texascavers] reduced dues for electronic version

[Mark . Alman]

Um, we'll have to get back to you on that, Bill.


Mark




-Original Message-
From: Mixon Bill [mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:42 PM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] reduced dues for electronic version

Let's see. Currently the TSA spends, apparently, 130% of my dues  
printing and mailing the Texas Caver. So if I opt to not receive it  
printed and mailed, the TSA should _pay me_ $6 a year as my dues. Right?
--Mixon
--
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org



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Re: [Texascavers] RE: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!! - Bug fixes

[George-Paul Richmann]

If it is to be increased, we should develop a methodology for future
increases. Lets have the price held constant in real terms by having
the normal price be determined by the CPI (consumer price index) and
then round to the nearest dollar.

That way, A) there wont be 20 years without a price increase robbing
TSA of valuable funds B) It will be expected and understandable by
cavers C) there wont ever need to have a price 'jump'

My 2.0325 cents!

-GP

On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 1:32 PM,   wrote:
>
> Be careful what you wish for, Fritz!8^)>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com]
> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:32 PM
> To: Lyndon Tiu; texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online - Bug
> fixes
>
> I have been chastised before on this matter but still think that a small
> increase in dues would be beneficial to the organization. I assume that
> the response will be that I am welcome to send in more if I choose.
> Fritz
>
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>



-- 
George-Paul Richmann
(513) 490-3100
gprichm...@gmail.com

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[Texascavers] reduced dues for electronic version

[Mixon Bill]

Let's see. Currently the TSA spends, apparently, 130% of my dues  
printing and mailing the Texas Caver. So if I opt to not receive it  
printed and mailed, the TSA should _pay me_ $6 a year as my dues. Right?

--Mixon
--
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org



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RE: [Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER hard copies

[Mark . Alman]

Dang, Gill!

We need your energy, logic, common sense, and enthusiasm.

Heck, I'll even sponsor your membership in the TSA!


Whaddya say?


Mark




-Original Message-
From: Gill Ediger [mailto:gi...@worldnet.att.net] 
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 9:37 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER hard copies

At 08:22 AM 1/16/2009, Lyndon Tiu wrote:
> > have both hard paper and electronic copies.

People can print their own damned hard copies! That is not a 
difficult thing to understand. Who's not paying attention? I say again:

People can print their own damned hard copies! Blatantly simple. That 
is the beauty of getting an on-line version. You get either or both 
and at absolutely NO (read ZERO here) cost to the TSA. Then, do what 
thou wilt with them. Archive away--paper, digital, clay tablet, 
whatever you want.

That is as bottom line as you can get. And as cheap and as simple. 
And just one field in the database. And no need for further 
discussion or confusion. It covers ALL the bases I've seen presented so
far.

--Ediger 


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RE: [Texascavers] RE: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!! - Bug fixes

[Mark . Alman]

Be careful what you wish for, Fritz!8^)>


Mark




-Original Message-
From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:32 PM
To: Lyndon Tiu; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online - Bug
fixes

I have been chastised before on this matter but still think that a small
increase in dues would be beneficial to the organization. I assume that
the response will be that I am welcome to send in more if I choose.
Fritz

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RE: [Texascavers] RE: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!! - Bug fixes

[Fritz Holt]

I have been chastised before on this matter but still think that a small 
increase in dues would be beneficial to the organization. I assume that the 
response will be that I am welcome to send in more if I choose.
Fritz

-Original Message-
From: Lyndon Tiu [mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 11:48 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online - Bug fixes

On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:22:16 -0500 mmin...@nmhu.edu wrote:
> There is also some strange code at the top of the registration form:
>  (probably irrelevant).

 

Subliminal message. Translated:

"You will pay $20 and use electronic version."

--
Lyndon Tiu

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RE: [Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER hard copies

[Mark . Alman]

Extremely well put, Fritz, and I wished I had explained this as
succinctly as you just did!

When ~95% of our budget is used to print the TC, it's a little hard to
sponsor other worthwhile projects and activities.

Going electronic will allow us to do this.

If you had been at the meeting, you would have realized that the TSA was
~$2200 in the red last year.

$2200!

A good, but extremely worthwhile, portion of this was $1K for the ICS
and $1K for refurbishing on the Honey Creek entrance shaft.

As I stated, the above are extremely vital and important expenditures.

Imagine all of the good we could do if the bulk of the TSA income wasn't
used in mailing a newsletter!

Are we here to cave or produce a newsletter?

I'd like to think both.


This was our main objective and I apologize for not explaining it more
clearly.


How can you help as a concerned member of the caving community?


Join the TSA and go electronic!!!



(An exasperated) Mark Alman



-Original Message-
From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:23 PM
To: Gill Ediger; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER hard copies

I have been reading all of the controversy and also have an opinion. I
have enjoyed receiving The Caver and its color pictures. However, I have
access to a color copier at my office where I receive the posts and can
print any issues that I would choose to save. I would believe that all
members of the caving fraternity have a computer, and therefore, I am in
favor of making receipt of The Caver electronically mandatory. This
would allow the many dollars spent (wasted) on printing costs and
postage to go towards the true objectives of the organization which is
education, conservation and fun times for cavers and even us spelunkers.
Fritz

-Original Message-
From: Gill Ediger [mailto:gi...@worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 9:37 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER hard copies

At 08:22 AM 1/16/2009, Lyndon Tiu wrote:
> > have both hard paper and electronic copies.

People can print their own damned hard copies! That is not a
difficult thing to understand. Who's not paying attention? I say again:

People can print their own damned hard copies! Blatantly simple. That
is the beauty of getting an on-line version. You get either or both
and at absolutely NO (read ZERO here) cost to the TSA. Then, do what
thou wilt with them. Archive away--paper, digital, clay tablet,
whatever you want.

That is as bottom line as you can get. And as cheap and as simple.
And just one field in the database. And no need for further
discussion or confusion. It covers ALL the bases I've seen presented so
far.

--Ediger


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RE: [Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER hard copies

[Fritz Holt]

I have been reading all of the controversy and also have an opinion. I have 
enjoyed receiving The Caver and its color pictures. However, I have access to a 
color copier at my office where I receive the posts and can print any issues 
that I would choose to save. I would believe that all members of the caving 
fraternity have a computer, and therefore, I am in favor of making receipt of 
The Caver electronically mandatory. This would allow the many dollars spent 
(wasted) on printing costs and postage to go towards the true objectives of the 
organization which is education, conservation and fun times for cavers and even 
us spelunkers.
Fritz

-Original Message-
From: Gill Ediger [mailto:gi...@worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 9:37 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER hard copies

At 08:22 AM 1/16/2009, Lyndon Tiu wrote:
> > have both hard paper and electronic copies.

People can print their own damned hard copies! That is not a
difficult thing to understand. Who's not paying attention? I say again:

People can print their own damned hard copies! Blatantly simple. That
is the beauty of getting an on-line version. You get either or both
and at absolutely NO (read ZERO here) cost to the TSA. Then, do what
thou wilt with them. Archive away--paper, digital, clay tablet,
whatever you want.

That is as bottom line as you can get. And as cheap and as simple.
And just one field in the database. And no need for further
discussion or confusion. It covers ALL the bases I've seen presented so far.

--Ediger


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[Texascavers] RE: Now Online!!!!

[Gill Ediger]

At 11:48 AM 1/16/2009, Lyndon Tiu wrote:

On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:22:16 -0500 mmin...@nmhu.edu wrote:
Subliminal message. Translated:

"You will pay $20 and use electronic version."


I'd pay a TSA membership of $100 a year if they would just make an 
online copy of The CAVER available to anyone with a password. That 
password could be handed out at Grotto meetings, caving Project, 
conventions, TCR, and any place where cavers gather, as well as sent 
out on CaveTex and other caver forums to obvious caver members--to 
keep it out of the public domain as much as possible. If they had to 
register for it the TSA could create a database of all those cavers 
in the state that they don't even know about now. Some good 
percentage of those cavers would happily join the TSA and become 
contributors and participants and leaders instead of being treated as 
outcasts as they are now. And even if they didn't, the TSA would be 
absolutely no worse off than it is now--and freed from the cost of 
producing and mailing The TEXAS CAVER--icing on the cake.


These are all positive suggestions that can in no way do harm to the 
TSA or Texas caving. Consider a positive attitude to go along with them.


--Ediger 



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Re: [Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER Online makes sense 3

[Gill Ediger]

At 10:51 AM 1/16/2009, you wrote:

Gill, I'm guessing that they want to use the TexasCaver to promote the
membership, and that they are afraid that if they gave away the
TexasCaver, then a lot of the memberships will drop.


On the contrary. Use The CAVER to promote membership among those who 
wouldn't otherwise join. It appears to all the independent cavers in 
Texas that the TSA doesn't care about them--ignores them totally, in 
fact. The CAVER should be the advertising medium for the TSA. It 
should be made available all cavers for free as a service (that is an 
important word, now) to all Texas cavers. Then, amongst all the trip 
reports and safety and equipment and technique and other caving 
information will be ads for the TSA Convention, board meetings, all 
the Project reports, and joining the TSA. If it's only $10 or $15 or 
even $20 you will probably double your membership, not reduce it. TSA 
membership should, of course, be pushed to all non-members at Grotto 
meetings, Projects, board meetings, and other TSA functions, as well 
as TCR and other events.


--Ediger 

Re: [Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER Online makes sense 2

[Gill Ediger]

Yep, I agree again. I do hope, however, that none of my positive 
solutions to the many problems are thought of as complaints. I don't 
complain--I fix things, or offer solutions for others to implement if 
it is outside my domain. This problem has such a simple solution that 
I'm embarassed for those who can't see it.


I'm just here to help,
--Ediger

At 10:51 AM 1/16/2009, you wrote:

Gill, I'm guessing that they want to use the TexasCaver to promote the
membership, and that they are afraid that if they gave away the
TexasCaver, then a lot of the memberships will drop.

So the big question comes, what value does TSA bring besides the
publication?  I've heard this question at other times, even when not
discussing electronic versus printing issues.

I don't have all of the answers, but this is what I've seen:

The TSA promotes Texas caving in many ways, CBSP project, helping with
land acquisition, and donated money for repairs at Honey Creek.

I know there are a lot of other ways, and anyone that complains should
attend the meetings and be vocal.  Merely complaining online isn't
going to cut it.  The TSA membership voted, the decision has been
made.  And before anyone complains that they didn't vote on it, you
know the answer to this, you should have been present.

We all have our opinions on the matter, we are entitled to them,
however, it doesn't mean that we are right :)

Charles

On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 8:36 AM, Gill Ediger  wrote:
> Charles is exactly right. The whole idea of an online TEXAS CAVER 
is that it

> CAN be printed out (in color, no less) and hard copy (and digitally)
> archived for a whole lot less money than the cost of printing and 
mailing. I

> cannot imagine reading an important digital publication on line. I almost
> always print them out, collate them, and read the hard copy--with 
my feet up
> on the desk. Everybody has a printer and damned near everybody 
has internet.
> Those that don't can have a friend do it. The CAVER can be 
bigger, in color,

> more friendly to submit to, timely, and cheaper to produce and distribute.
> It  is one of the most important positive decisions the TSA has made in a
> long time. The technology is here and the rewards will be great. The only
> thing missing is that The TEXAS CAVER is still an elite subscription
> newsletter online which will not be readily available to all of the Texas
> cavers who would benefit from it and the TSA (and all of Texas caving) will
> suffer the consequences of not having those cavers as readers and
> contributors. They will miss out on the important information published in
> The CAVER and and the subscribers will miss out on the information which
> would normally be contributed by those barred from 2-way access to The
> CAVER. The TSA is not an association of Texas cavers; it is an association
> of dues payers beating a dying dog. It can accomplish its goals only by
> reaching out to and including ALL Texas cavers in its coverage. 
The internet

> offers a cheap and simple and effective way to do that. The first step has
> been taken. It's too bad that money rather than intellect prompted that
> change. Let's see if common sense can move it make the next step to include
> all Texas cavers in on the benefits of  being a part of the Association by
> offering them access to both read and contribute to the valuable 
contents of

> The TEXAS  CAVER.
>
> I must ask those in the TSA: Why do you not want to reach everybody who is
> caving in Texas with your safety and conservation message and to promote
> good and smart caving practices among them and induce more 
submission to The

> TEXAS CAVER? Why? The mechanism is in place; let's use it to reach out to
> those non-participants. Draw them in with a positive influence and
> counteract any bad caving habits they may have--all at no cost to anyone.
>
> --Ediger
>
> At 10:36 PM 1/15/2009, Charles Goldsmith wrote:
>>
>> Now, to the issue at hand, I disagree, if anyone wants a hard copy,
>> have it printed, you'll come out a bit more expensive, but that way
>> the rest of us don't have to pay for the additional cost via higher
>> subscriptions.
>>
>> The TSA is moving in the correct direction.
>>
>> As far as making sure these are always available, until time ends,
>> proper planning of the TSA with this is prudent.
>>
>> Multiple off-site storage of the files should be mandatory, and
>> accurate accounting of the off-site files.
>>
>> Requiring everyone to pay more for a hard-copy is selfish and not
>> prudent in these economical times.  I can afford for higher dues, do I
>> want them, no.  Not everyone could afford them, we should probably
>> talk about dropping them a bit to help everyone out.
>>
>> If you don't have a printer, you can take the pdf to many printing
>> shops to have it printed.  If you insist on having one mailed to you
>> in hard copy, perhaps the TSA will consent with doing a special rate
>> for those, paying a higher dues to cover the printing/mailing co

Re: [Texascavers] RE: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!! - Bug fixes

[Lyndon Tiu]

On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:22:16 -0500 mmin...@nmhu.edu wrote:
> There is also some strange code at the top of the registration form:
>  (probably irrelevant).

  

Subliminal message. Translated:

"You will pay $20 and use electronic version."

--
Lyndon Tiu

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[Texascavers] RE: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!! - Bug fixes

[Minton, Mark]

Butch,

>You can now update your profile online and change the state on both 
>registration and your profile.

  It still doesn't work right for me.  Virginia is now accepted as my 
state, but when I hit Confirm Registration, the same registration screen pops 
back up.  There are no errors listed, but the registration won't go through.  I 
tried it several times in both IE and Firefox.  There is also some strange code 
at the top of the registration form:   (probably irrelevant).

Mark Minton

[Texascavers] The Caver and the TSA

[Linda Palit]

I am pleased there is so much interest in the Caver, and am hoping that 
interest is also in the TSA.  There are lots of new potential projects in the 
TSA, and much ongoing work with current projects.  There are volunteer 
positions available, chairs that are unfilled, and articles that need to be 
written.  Programs for the Spring Convention come from members also, so be sure 
to let the TSA officers know if you are willing to share what you have been 
doing in that way.  TSA sometimes suffers from lack of participation, but 
decisions sometimes have a way of reminding people that they are the TSA, and 
there are ways to work to have the organization reflect what you want.

Linda

texascavers Digest 16 Jan 2009 16:51:44 -0000 Issue 690

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 16 Jan 2009 16:51:44 - Issue 690

Topics (messages 9921 through 9934):

Re: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online
9921 by: Lyndon Tiu
9926 by: Minton, Mark
9927 by: Lyndon Tiu
9930 by: Butch Fralia

TEXAS CAVER Online makes sense
9922 by: Gill Ediger
9931 by: Ted Samsel
9934 by: Charles Goldsmith

PDF distribution
9923 by: Gill Ediger

TC Now Online
9924 by: Gill Ediger
9925 by: Lyndon Tiu

TEXAS CAVER hard copies
9928 by: Gill Ediger
9929 by: Lyndon Tiu

Re: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online - Bug fixes
9932 by: Butch Fralia
9933 by: Keith Goggin

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:


To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:


To post to the list, e-mail:



--
--- Begin Message ---

> have both hard paper and electronic copies.

> all of the previous copies of TC going to be archived in PDF format and 
> made available


Pandoras box has opened! 

Now you have a lot of work to do Mark!

All this in the name of saving money, means you will loose a lot of sweat.

--
Lyndon Tiu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
  Lyndon said:

>>Could we make it where it's read only (not downloadable) on the web site?
>Not possible with the internet. In any form (pdf, html, ascii, ebcidic, etc), 
>once you open and read it on your own computer, the binary reprentation of the 
>text is transferred from the TSA web server to your computer. From there, you 
>can copy it and distribute it "wontanly".

  This is definitely true, even for things that people thought they had 
cleverly protected from downloading or printing.  For example, some free trial 
versions of programs allow one to use their functionality but not to save or 
print the results.  I have several of those.  If I want to keep the results, I 
simply make a screen shot and then paste that into a blank image in an image 
manipulation program (IrfanView  is a good free 
one).  I can then select only the relevant portion of the screen shot and paste 
that into a new blank image to get my results free of extraneous headers, 
borders, etc.  Very quick and easy, and the resulting image can be printed or 
whatever.  About the only thing this doesn't cover is making the copied text 
searchable or manipulable, and there are even ways to do that with OCR 
programs.  Once it's on your screen, it's yours to keep if you want it.

  Another trick for keeping things that are not supposed to be savable is 
to find the copy in your computer's cache.  When you download anything using a 
web browser your computer almost always keeps a copy.  That's why you can 
refresh or revisit the page and it comes back up very rapidly.  Generally that 
cached copy is hidden away deep in some obscure system or program folder, but 
if you can find it, you can copy it.  I used to to that with YouTube videos, 
which do not have an obvious mechanism for saving them.  One way to find those 
obscure cahed files is to search for files based on date/time.  If it's the 
last thing you did, it will generally be one of the last couple of files saved. 
 Where there's a will, there's a way.  :-)

Mark Minton
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:30:48 -0500 mmin...@nmhu.edu wrote:
> ...  Generally that cached copy is hidden away 
> deep in some obscure system or program folder, but if you can find it, 
> you can copy it.  I used to to that with YouTube videos, which do not
> have an obvious mechanism for saving them.  One way to find those
> obscure cahed files is to search for files based on date/time.  If
> it's the last thing you did, it will generally be one of the last
> couple of files saved.  Where there's a will, there's a way.  :-)
> 

I could not have explained it better! Thanks for explaining and sharing.

--
Lyndon Tiu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I never understood that registering for the member area would determine
whether someone got a hard copy or electronic copy.  Whether you get a hard
copy or electronic copy is a membership option (online anyway).  Electronic
copies should be available to all members but some members will opt to get
their copy there vs. a hard copy.  Personally I prefer the electronic
version because I'm swamped in "hard copy."

 

Butch

 

P.S., I've noted a few folks Mark, Lyndon finding bugs, I'll get those
attended to asap.

 

 

 

From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:59 AM
To: Keith Goggin; Lyndon Tiu; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online

 

We can look into this option, Keith.

 

Another item for your "To Do List", huh. Butch?


Thanks,

 

Mark

 

 

 

  _  

From: Keith Goggin [mailto:ke...@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Fri 1/16/2009 

Re: [Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER Online makes sense

[Charles Goldsmith]

Gill, I'm guessing that they want to use the TexasCaver to promote the
membership, and that they are afraid that if they gave away the
TexasCaver, then a lot of the memberships will drop.

So the big question comes, what value does TSA bring besides the
publication?  I've heard this question at other times, even when not
discussing electronic versus printing issues.

I don't have all of the answers, but this is what I've seen:

The TSA promotes Texas caving in many ways, CBSP project, helping with
land acquisition, and donated money for repairs at Honey Creek.

I know there are a lot of other ways, and anyone that complains should
attend the meetings and be vocal.  Merely complaining online isn't
going to cut it.  The TSA membership voted, the decision has been
made.  And before anyone complains that they didn't vote on it, you
know the answer to this, you should have been present.

We all have our opinions on the matter, we are entitled to them,
however, it doesn't mean that we are right :)

Charles

On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 8:36 AM, Gill Ediger  wrote:
> Charles is exactly right. The whole idea of an online TEXAS CAVER is that it
> CAN be printed out (in color, no less) and hard copy (and digitally)
> archived for a whole lot less money than the cost of printing and mailing. I
> cannot imagine reading an important digital publication on line. I almost
> always print them out, collate them, and read the hard copy--with my feet up
> on the desk. Everybody has a printer and damned near everybody has internet.
> Those that don't can have a friend do it. The CAVER can be bigger, in color,
> more friendly to submit to, timely, and cheaper to produce and distribute.
> It  is one of the most important positive decisions the TSA has made in a
> long time. The technology is here and the rewards will be great. The only
> thing missing is that The TEXAS CAVER is still an elite subscription
> newsletter online which will not be readily available to all of the Texas
> cavers who would benefit from it and the TSA (and all of Texas caving) will
> suffer the consequences of not having those cavers as readers and
> contributors. They will miss out on the important information published in
> The CAVER and and the subscribers will miss out on the information which
> would normally be contributed by those barred from 2-way access to The
> CAVER. The TSA is not an association of Texas cavers; it is an association
> of dues payers beating a dying dog. It can accomplish its goals only by
> reaching out to and including ALL Texas cavers in its coverage. The internet
> offers a cheap and simple and effective way to do that. The first step has
> been taken. It's too bad that money rather than intellect prompted that
> change. Let's see if common sense can move it make the next step to include
> all Texas cavers in on the benefits of  being a part of the Association by
> offering them access to both read and contribute to the valuable contents of
> The TEXAS  CAVER.
>
> I must ask those in the TSA: Why do you not want to reach everybody who is
> caving in Texas with your safety and conservation message and to promote
> good and smart caving practices among them and induce more submission to The
> TEXAS CAVER? Why? The mechanism is in place; let's use it to reach out to
> those non-participants. Draw them in with a positive influence and
> counteract any bad caving habits they may have--all at no cost to anyone.
>
> --Ediger
>
> At 10:36 PM 1/15/2009, Charles Goldsmith wrote:
>>
>> Now, to the issue at hand, I disagree, if anyone wants a hard copy,
>> have it printed, you'll come out a bit more expensive, but that way
>> the rest of us don't have to pay for the additional cost via higher
>> subscriptions.
>>
>> The TSA is moving in the correct direction.
>>
>> As far as making sure these are always available, until time ends,
>> proper planning of the TSA with this is prudent.
>>
>> Multiple off-site storage of the files should be mandatory, and
>> accurate accounting of the off-site files.
>>
>> Requiring everyone to pay more for a hard-copy is selfish and not
>> prudent in these economical times.  I can afford for higher dues, do I
>> want them, no.  Not everyone could afford them, we should probably
>> talk about dropping them a bit to help everyone out.
>>
>> If you don't have a printer, you can take the pdf to many printing
>> shops to have it printed.  If you insist on having one mailed to you
>> in hard copy, perhaps the TSA will consent with doing a special rate
>> for those, paying a higher dues to cover the printing/mailing cost.
>> This should not be imposed on everyone though, only to those who elect
>> to pay that cost.
>
>
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Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!! - Bug fixes

[Keith Goggin]

Thanks Butch!

People can print their own damned hard copies! 

Here's an idea - let's just pool a portion of the dues money and communally buy 
a good quality color printer (since that is a fairly expensive iten for a lot 
of individuals and probably most of us don't have one) and then mail it out.  

Oh wait...





From: Butch Fralia 
To: Butch Fralia ; mark.al...@l-3com.com; Keith 
Goggin ; Lyndon Tiu ; 
texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 10:36:28 AM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online - Bug fixes


You can now update your profile online and change the state on both 
registration and your profile.  
 
Butch
 
 
From:Butch Fralia [mailto:bfra...@maverickgrotto.org] 
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 9:49 AM
To: mark.al...@l-3com.com; 'Keith Goggin'; 'Lyndon Tiu'; 
texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online
 
I never understood that registering for the member area would determine whether 
someone got a hard copy or electronic copy.  Whether you get a hard copy or 
electronic copy is a membership option (online anyway).  Electronic copies 
should be available to all members but some members will opt to get their copy 
there vs. a hard copy.  Personally I prefer the electronic version because I’m 
swamped in “hard copy.”
 
Butch
 
P.S., I’ve noted a few folks Mark, Lyndon finding bugs, I’ll get those attended 
to asap.
 
 
 
From:mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:59 AM
To: Keith Goggin; Lyndon Tiu; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online
 
We can look into this option, Keith.
 
Another item for your "To Do List", huh. Butch?


Thanks,
 
Mark
 
 
 



From:Keith Goggin [mailto:ke...@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Fri 1/16/2009 7:58 AM
To: Alman, Mark @ IRP; Lyndon Tiu; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online
Maybe I've misread something, but seems to me that regardless of whether or not 
you pay more for a hard copy the digital copies should be available to all paid 
members.
 



From:"mark.al...@l-3com.com" 
To: Lyndon Tiu ; texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:40:24 AM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online


No, Lyndon.

We agreed to strongly encourage everyone to sign up in the Members
Section on the TSA website. 

By doing so, this would indicate that you would be accessing the site
for each TC that comes out.

If you're on this Members List, you will NOT be receiving a hard copy.

We will gauge the response. We have 20 signed up, so far.

We may have to tweak this setup and, possibly, revisit in April.

More than one person has suggested going all electronic on the TC and
charging more for those that want the hard copy.


Lots of ideas and discussions and that's a good thing.

See you this evening, Lyndon. Drive careful and thanks for helping out!


Mark



-Original Message-
From: Lyndon Tiu [mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca] 
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:36 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online


On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:08:13 -0600 mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
> We may revisit this in April and go to the two-tiered membership, 
> A lower fee for electronic access only and a higher fee for a mailed
TC.

Q: I forgot how we agreed on this. Is it by default, starting Q1 2009 -
that everyone will NOT get a mailed hard copy unless they specifically
request for it? And they only have to request once and all future copies
will be mailed out to them or is it one request per issue?

Depending on the A to the above Q. An option is to sit this out and wait
and observe how things go. If the majority are happy with the electronic
version and only a few are being mailed out. Then we have solved the
primary goal of having electronic copies - saving money.

I think a majority will opt for the electronic copy anyways. Only a few
will want mailed hard copies. For the few that want it, let them have
it.

I (not getting a hard copy) personally don't mind paying the same
membership amount as a person who is getting his hard copy.

I believe most don't mind either.

--
Lyndon Tiu

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RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!! - Bug fixes

[Butch Fralia]

You can now update your profile online and change the state on both
registration and your profile.  

 

Butch

 

 

From: Butch Fralia [mailto:bfra...@maverickgrotto.org] 
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 9:49 AM
To: mark.al...@l-3com.com; 'Keith Goggin'; 'Lyndon Tiu';
texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online

 

I never understood that registering for the member area would determine
whether someone got a hard copy or electronic copy.  Whether you get a hard
copy or electronic copy is a membership option (online anyway).  Electronic
copies should be available to all members but some members will opt to get
their copy there vs. a hard copy.  Personally I prefer the electronic
version because I'm swamped in "hard copy."

 

Butch

 

P.S., I've noted a few folks Mark, Lyndon finding bugs, I'll get those
attended to asap.

 

 

 

From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:59 AM
To: Keith Goggin; Lyndon Tiu; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online

 

We can look into this option, Keith.

 

Another item for your "To Do List", huh. Butch?


Thanks,

 

Mark

 

 

 

  _  

From: Keith Goggin [mailto:ke...@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Fri 1/16/2009 7:58 AM
To: Alman, Mark @ IRP; Lyndon Tiu; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online

Maybe I've misread something, but seems to me that regardless of whether or
not you pay more for a hard copy the digital copies should be available to
all paid members.

 

  _  

From: "mark.al...@l-3com.com" 
To: Lyndon Tiu ; texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:40:24 AM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online


No, Lyndon.

We agreed to strongly encourage everyone to sign up in the Members
Section on the TSA website. 

By doing so, this would indicate that you would be accessing the site
for each TC that comes out.

If you're on this Members List, you will NOT be receiving a hard copy.

We will gauge the response. We have 20 signed up, so far.

We may have to tweak this setup and, possibly, revisit in April.

More than one person has suggested going all electronic on the TC and
charging more for those that want the hard copy.


Lots of ideas and discussions and that's a good thing.

See you this evening, Lyndon. Drive careful and thanks for helping out!


Mark



-Original Message-
From: Lyndon Tiu [mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca] 
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:36 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online


On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:08:13 -0600 mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
> We may revisit this in April and go to the two-tiered membership, 
> A lower fee for electronic access only and a higher fee for a mailed
TC.

Q: I forgot how we agreed on this. Is it by default, starting Q1 2009 -
that everyone will NOT get a mailed hard copy unless they specifically
request for it? And they only have to request once and all future copies
will be mailed out to them or is it one request per issue?

Depending on the A to the above Q. An option is to sit this out and wait
and observe how things go. If the majority are happy with the electronic
version and only a few are being mailed out. Then we have solved the
primary goal of having electronic copies - saving money.

I think a majority will opt for the electronic copy anyways. Only a few
will want mailed hard copies. For the few that want it, let them have
it.

I (not getting a hard copy) personally don't mind paying the same
membership amount as a person who is getting his hard copy.

I believe most don't mind either.

--
Lyndon Tiu

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Re: [Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER Online makes sense

[Ted Samsel]

-Original Message-
>From: Gill Ediger 
>Sent: Jan 16, 2009 9:36 AM
>To: texascavers@texascavers.com
>Subject: [Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER Online makes sense
>
>Charles is exactly right. The whole idea of an online TEXAS CAVER is 
>that it CAN be printed out (in color, no less) and hard copy (and 
>digitally) archived for a whole lot less money than the cost of 
>printing and mailing. I cannot imagine reading an important digital 
>publication on line. I almost always print them out, collate them, 
>and read the hard copy--with my feet up on the desk. Everybody has a 
>printer and damned near everybody has internet. Those that don't can 
>have a friend do it. The CAVER can be bigger, in color, more friendly 
>to submit to, timely, and cheaper to produce and distribute. 

And if one desires traditional hard copy, one could take up book binding and 
have matching volumes of "fine Corinthian leather" or use the skin of baby 
Naugas.

R. Montalban

http://home.infionline.net/~tbsamsel/

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RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!

[Butch Fralia]

I never understood that registering for the member area would determine
whether someone got a hard copy or electronic copy.  Whether you get a hard
copy or electronic copy is a membership option (online anyway).  Electronic
copies should be available to all members but some members will opt to get
their copy there vs. a hard copy.  Personally I prefer the electronic
version because I'm swamped in "hard copy."

 

Butch

 

P.S., I've noted a few folks Mark, Lyndon finding bugs, I'll get those
attended to asap.

 

 

 

From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:59 AM
To: Keith Goggin; Lyndon Tiu; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online

 

We can look into this option, Keith.

 

Another item for your "To Do List", huh. Butch?


Thanks,

 

Mark

 

 

 

  _  

From: Keith Goggin [mailto:ke...@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Fri 1/16/2009 7:58 AM
To: Alman, Mark @ IRP; Lyndon Tiu; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online

Maybe I've misread something, but seems to me that regardless of whether or
not you pay more for a hard copy the digital copies should be available to
all paid members.

 

  _  

From: "mark.al...@l-3com.com" 
To: Lyndon Tiu ; texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:40:24 AM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online


No, Lyndon.

We agreed to strongly encourage everyone to sign up in the Members
Section on the TSA website. 

By doing so, this would indicate that you would be accessing the site
for each TC that comes out.

If you're on this Members List, you will NOT be receiving a hard copy.

We will gauge the response. We have 20 signed up, so far.

We may have to tweak this setup and, possibly, revisit in April.

More than one person has suggested going all electronic on the TC and
charging more for those that want the hard copy.


Lots of ideas and discussions and that's a good thing.

See you this evening, Lyndon. Drive careful and thanks for helping out!


Mark



-Original Message-
From: Lyndon Tiu [mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca] 
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:36 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online


On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:08:13 -0600 mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
> We may revisit this in April and go to the two-tiered membership, 
> A lower fee for electronic access only and a higher fee for a mailed
TC.

Q: I forgot how we agreed on this. Is it by default, starting Q1 2009 -
that everyone will NOT get a mailed hard copy unless they specifically
request for it? And they only have to request once and all future copies
will be mailed out to them or is it one request per issue?

Depending on the A to the above Q. An option is to sit this out and wait
and observe how things go. If the majority are happy with the electronic
version and only a few are being mailed out. Then we have solved the
primary goal of having electronic copies - saving money.

I think a majority will opt for the electronic copy anyways. Only a few
will want mailed hard copies. For the few that want it, let them have
it.

I (not getting a hard copy) personally don't mind paying the same
membership amount as a person who is getting his hard copy.

I believe most don't mind either.

--
Lyndon Tiu

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Re: [Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER hard copies

[Lyndon Tiu]

On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:37:13 -0600 gi...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> At 08:22 AM 1/16/2009, Lyndon Tiu wrote:
> > > have both hard paper and electronic copies.
> 

... and I'm perfectly happy with my electronic copy. I was just quoting 
somebody else.

> People can print their own damned hard copies! That is not a 
> difficult thing to understand. Who's not paying attention? I say again:
>

As I said in a previous email, it seems to me that only a small vocal minority 
are asking for hard copies and an even smaller minority wants both. I think 
most don't care either ways.

--
Lyndon Tiu

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[Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER hard copies

[Gill Ediger]

At 08:22 AM 1/16/2009, Lyndon Tiu wrote:

> have both hard paper and electronic copies.


People can print their own damned hard copies! That is not a 
difficult thing to understand. Who's not paying attention? I say again:


People can print their own damned hard copies! Blatantly simple. That 
is the beauty of getting an on-line version. You get either or both 
and at absolutely NO (read ZERO here) cost to the TSA. Then, do what 
thou wilt with them. Archive away--paper, digital, clay tablet, 
whatever you want.


That is as bottom line as you can get. And as cheap and as simple. 
And just one field in the database. And no need for further 
discussion or confusion. It covers ALL the bases I've seen presented so far.


--Ediger 



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Re: [Texascavers] RE: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!

[Lyndon Tiu]

On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:30:48 -0500 mmin...@nmhu.edu wrote:
> ...  Generally that cached copy is hidden away 
> deep in some obscure system or program folder, but if you can find it, 
> you can copy it.  I used to to that with YouTube videos, which do not
> have an obvious mechanism for saving them.  One way to find those
> obscure cahed files is to search for files based on date/time.  If
> it's the last thing you did, it will generally be one of the last
> couple of files saved.  Where there's a will, there's a way.  :-)
> 

I could not have explained it better! Thanks for explaining and sharing.

--
Lyndon Tiu

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[Texascavers] RE: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!

[Minton, Mark]

  Lyndon said:

>>Could we make it where it's read only (not downloadable) on the web site?
>Not possible with the internet. In any form (pdf, html, ascii, ebcidic, etc), 
>once you open and read it on your own computer, the binary reprentation of the 
>text is transferred from the TSA web server to your computer. From there, you 
>can copy it and distribute it "wontanly".

  This is definitely true, even for things that people thought they had 
cleverly protected from downloading or printing.  For example, some free trial 
versions of programs allow one to use their functionality but not to save or 
print the results.  I have several of those.  If I want to keep the results, I 
simply make a screen shot and then paste that into a blank image in an image 
manipulation program (IrfanView  is a good free 
one).  I can then select only the relevant portion of the screen shot and paste 
that into a new blank image to get my results free of extraneous headers, 
borders, etc.  Very quick and easy, and the resulting image can be printed or 
whatever.  About the only thing this doesn't cover is making the copied text 
searchable or manipulable, and there are even ways to do that with OCR 
programs.  Once it's on your screen, it's yours to keep if you want it.

  Another trick for keeping things that are not supposed to be savable is 
to find the copy in your computer's cache.  When you download anything using a 
web browser your computer almost always keeps a copy.  That's why you can 
refresh or revisit the page and it comes back up very rapidly.  Generally that 
cached copy is hidden away deep in some obscure system or program folder, but 
if you can find it, you can copy it.  I used to to that with YouTube videos, 
which do not have an obvious mechanism for saving them.  One way to find those 
obscure cahed files is to search for files based on date/time.  If it's the 
last thing you did, it will generally be one of the last couple of files saved. 
 Where there's a will, there's a way.  :-)

Mark Minton

Re: [Texascavers] TC Now Online!!!!

[Lyndon Tiu]

On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:18:28 -0600 gi...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> At 07:53 AM 1/16/2009, Lyndon Tiu wrote:
> >The tiered membership and "wontan" distribution issues are another 
> >set of issues we can deal with separately.
> 
> Hey, what if you charge $20 (or even 30) for an on-line subscription 
> without TSA membership. It would be worth it not having to deal with 
> all this political and selfish unlogic.

No taxation without representation?

--
Lyndon Tiu

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[Texascavers] TC Now Online!!!!

[Gill Ediger]

At 07:53 AM 1/16/2009, Lyndon Tiu wrote:
The tiered membership and "wontan" distribution issues are another 
set of issues we can deal with separately.


Hey, what if you charge $20 (or even 30) for an on-line subscription 
without TSA membership. It would be worth it not having to deal with 
all this political and selfish unlogic.


--Ediger  



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[Texascavers] PDF distribution

[Gill Ediger]

At 10:56 PM 1/15/2009, Mixon Bill wrote:

Let's see. I'm supposed to pay $20 a year _and_ print my own copies of
the Texas Caver? No thanks, I'll pass on that.


$20 is little more than the cost of 2 6-packs of good beer. That 
money should NOT be looked upon as subscription money but as a 
contribution to the good works of the TSA. The $20 membership fee 
should not be looked upon as having anything at all to do with the 
production and mailing cost of The TEXAS CAVER. The CAVER is free to 
members--by default. And, yes, if you bear the cost of printing your 
online copy at home you have the added benefit of getting a color 
copy for your archives. Consider the cost of printing it to be your 
subscription cost if you really have a desire to worry about that. It 
will probably be a good bit less than $20--a cost which will no 
longer have to be borne by the TSA by the way. This is a simple 
problem with a simple solution. It involves so little money on any 
caver's part as to be virtually inconsequential. That cannot be the 
real basis of anyone's arguing against it. Abject silliness, I say.


--Ediger 



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[Texascavers] TEXAS CAVER Online makes sense

[Gill Ediger]

Charles is exactly right. The whole idea of an online TEXAS CAVER is 
that it CAN be printed out (in color, no less) and hard copy (and 
digitally) archived for a whole lot less money than the cost of 
printing and mailing. I cannot imagine reading an important digital 
publication on line. I almost always print them out, collate them, 
and read the hard copy--with my feet up on the desk. Everybody has a 
printer and damned near everybody has internet. Those that don't can 
have a friend do it. The CAVER can be bigger, in color, more friendly 
to submit to, timely, and cheaper to produce and distribute. It  is 
one of the most important positive decisions the TSA has made in a 
long time. The technology is here and the rewards will be great. The 
only thing missing is that The TEXAS CAVER is still an elite 
subscription newsletter online which will not be readily available to 
all of the Texas cavers who would benefit from it and the TSA (and 
all of Texas caving) will suffer the consequences of not having those 
cavers as readers and contributors. They will miss out on the 
important information published in The CAVER and and the subscribers 
will miss out on the information which would normally be contributed 
by those barred from 2-way access to The CAVER. The TSA is not an 
association of Texas cavers; it is an association of dues payers 
beating a dying dog. It can accomplish its goals only by reaching out 
to and including ALL Texas cavers in its coverage. The internet 
offers a cheap and simple and effective way to do that. The first 
step has been taken. It's too bad that money rather than intellect 
prompted that change. Let's see if common sense can move it make the 
next step to include all Texas cavers in on the benefits of  being a 
part of the Association by offering them access to both read and 
contribute to the valuable contents of The TEXAS  CAVER.


I must ask those in the TSA: Why do you not want to reach everybody 
who is caving in Texas with your safety and conservation message and 
to promote good and smart caving practices among them and induce more 
submission to The TEXAS CAVER? Why? The mechanism is in place; let's 
use it to reach out to those non-participants. Draw them in with a 
positive influence and counteract any bad caving habits they may 
have--all at no cost to anyone.


--Ediger

At 10:36 PM 1/15/2009, Charles Goldsmith wrote:

Now, to the issue at hand, I disagree, if anyone wants a hard copy,
have it printed, you'll come out a bit more expensive, but that way
the rest of us don't have to pay for the additional cost via higher
subscriptions.

The TSA is moving in the correct direction.

As far as making sure these are always available, until time ends,
proper planning of the TSA with this is prudent.

Multiple off-site storage of the files should be mandatory, and
accurate accounting of the off-site files.

Requiring everyone to pay more for a hard-copy is selfish and not
prudent in these economical times.  I can afford for higher dues, do I
want them, no.  Not everyone could afford them, we should probably
talk about dropping them a bit to help everyone out.

If you don't have a printer, you can take the pdf to many printing
shops to have it printed.  If you insist on having one mailed to you
in hard copy, perhaps the TSA will consent with doing a special rate
for those, paying a higher dues to cover the printing/mailing cost.
This should not be imposed on everyone though, only to those who elect
to pay that cost.



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Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!

[Lyndon Tiu]

> have both hard paper and electronic copies.

> all of the previous copies of TC going to be archived in PDF format and 
> made available


Pandoras box has opened! 

Now you have a lot of work to do Mark!

All this in the name of saving money, means you will loose a lot of sweat.

--
Lyndon Tiu

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texascavers Digest 16 Jan 2009 14:18:13 -0000 Issue 689

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 16 Jan 2009 14:18:13 - Issue 689

Topics (messages 9906 through 9920):

Re: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online
9906 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
9907 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
9908 by: Lyndon Tiu
9909 by: Keith Goggin
9910 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
9911 by: Lyndon Tiu
9912 by: Joe Ranzau
9913 by: J. LaRue Thomas
9914 by: Lyndon Tiu
9915 by: Keith Goggin
9916 by: Denise P
9917 by: Lyndon Tiu
9918 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
9919 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
9920 by: Bill Bentley-Webmail

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:


To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:


To post to the list, e-mail:



--
--- Begin Message ---

At the meeting Sunday morning (and it was a very large turnout), I don't
recall one person being in favor of raising dues.

We may revisit this in April and go to the two-tiered membership, 
A lower fee for electronic access only and a higher fee for a mailed TC.

We'll see how the response for this goes, but the reaction and sign up
seems to be positive and going well.

If anyone has other suggestions and ideas in keeping the TSA viable and
still affordable for folks, I suggest you be sure to make the meeting at
the TSA Convention.

We'll see y'all then and I'm glad to see this exchange of ideas. It
would have been better to have had them at the meeting Sunday, though.



Thanks,

Mark




-Original Message-
From: speleoste...@tx.rr.com [mailto:speleoste...@tx.rr.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 10:57 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com; Terri Sprouse
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online


 Terri Sprouse  wrote: 

>> Peter thinks the solution is to raise the dues and keep printing the
hard 
copies. I agree. <<

So do it. Raise my dues. So what if it's another $10 a year? Ten dollars
a year? If that breaks you, then you surely can't buy batteries for your
LED light either.

Bill 


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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I learned something a LOONG time ago in one of the boring training
meeting we had here at work and it applies to a LOT of aspects in life:

 

 

NEVER WRITE SOMETHING THAT YOU WOULD BE UNCOMFORTABLE HAVING OTHERS READ
ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THE PAPER.

 

 

If you'll go by this simple edict, and I do, you'll never have a problem
with the wrong person reading the wrong thing.

 

 

'Nuff said.

 

 

Mark

 

 

 

 



From: Denise P [mailto:pepabe...@hotmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:11 AM
To: TexasCavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online

 

I see Terri's point about not having the CAVER able to be electronically
distributed all over, and folks losing their privacy. I know she gets up
to all kinds of mischief on trips she doesn't want her conservative
employers to know about! :)
 
Could we make it where it's read only (not downloadable) on the web
site? People who want a hardcopy could continue to receive one in the
mail.
 
I personally do not want a hardcopy or my dues raised (though I could
afford it, I'd rather not pay more, I support all kinds of organizations
in addition to the TSA), so I like this option.
 
I do not think the goal here is to eliminate all hardcopies, only those
for people who do not want them (a logical decision that saves money for
the TSA and a tree or two/barrel of oil). I really think the CAVER will
always be in print.
 
My two cents,
Denise

> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:28:00 -0800
> From: posada...@yahoo.com
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online
> 
> 
> Peter thinks the solution is to raise the dues and keep printing the
hard copies. I agree. Peter uses the Texas Caver as a resource - so long
term access is important. We have all of the Texas Cavers dating back to
1961 on our book shelves. Computers, programs, online data storage
systems crash, become outdated and change a lot, but data stored in the
bookcase is stable and reliable. The last thing we want is to look up
one day and realize that we have lost this source of information on
explored caves.
> 
> The prospect of having trip reports available online to non-members
(or to any large group of people in digital format) scares the hell out
of me. Most times, people on a caving trip have absolutely no control
over what is written about them in a trip report.
> 
> I would not like for anything that I write about in a trip report to
be easily forwarded to or accessible by the general public, employers,
clients, etc. . . . I don't want to g

Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!

[Bill Bentley-Webmail]

Mark,
 I want to be able to have both hard paper and electronic copies.
I did not know when I registered yesterday that I would be giving up  
the paper copies. If that is the case then unsign unregister me.  
Also And I know it take lots of time, but are all of the previous  
copies of TC going to be archived in PDF format and made available too?


The PBSS has no newsletter at this time, but I think that is about to  
change soon. Several years ago when we did have a newsletter we  
switched from hard copies to electronic PDF and now 99% of the  
membership gets pdf copies made available of the PBSS website (Open  
for everyone, because we want to encourage membership that way) The  
few that don't have a Computer and Internet get theirs printed and  
sent to them or picked up at meetings. So far it has worked and so far  
so good. It took me a couple of years to scan and convert to PDF all  
of the back issues and they are also available as well to all. Never  
had any complaints except from me for all the work involved. Oh we did  
have a guy email the grotto after reading one of the back issues of  
"The Hole News" to complain about a chin strap on a helmet in a  
picture or something trivial like that several years ago.


So for my 2 cents worth of my TSA membership is to have both paper and  
electronic copies available to paid members and also tackle the task  
of making back years issues available in electronic PDF format.
Oh and I have paper copies back to 1978 (thanks to Logan for selling  
me a lot of missing ones and back issues at a really good price)

Thanks,
Bill


Quoting Keith Goggin :

Maybe I've misread something, but seems to me that regardless of   
whether or not you pay more for a hard copy the digital copies   
should be available to all paid members.






From: "mark.al...@l-3com.com" 
To: Lyndon Tiu ; texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:40:24 AM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online


No, Lyndon.

We agreed to strongly encourage everyone to sign up in the Members
Section on the TSA website.

By doing so, this would indicate that you would be accessing the site
for each TC that comes out.

If you're on this Members List, you will NOT be receiving a hard copy.

We will gauge the response. We have 20 signed up, so far.

We may have to tweak this setup and, possibly, revisit in April.

More than one person has suggested going all electronic on the TC and
charging more for those that want the hard copy.


Lots of ideas and discussions and that's a good thing.

See you this evening, Lyndon. Drive careful and thanks for helping out!


Mark



-Original Message-
From: Lyndon Tiu [mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca]
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:36 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online


On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:08:13 -0600 mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:

We may revisit this in April and go to the two-tiered membership,
A lower fee for electronic access only and a higher fee for a mailed

TC.

Q: I forgot how we agreed on this. Is it by default, starting Q1 2009 -
that everyone will NOT get a mailed hard copy unless they specifically
request for it? And they only have to request once and all future copies
will be mailed out to them or is it one request per issue?

Depending on the A to the above Q. An option is to sit this out and wait
and observe how things go. If the majority are happy with the electronic
version and only a few are being mailed out. Then we have solved the
primary goal of having electronic copies - saving money.

I think a majority will opt for the electronic copy anyways. Only a few
will want mailed hard copies. For the few that want it, let them have
it.

I (not getting a hard copy) personally don't mind paying the same
membership amount as a person who is getting his hard copy.

I believe most don't mind either.

--
Lyndon Tiu

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RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!

[Mark . Alman]

Send a message to Butch, Denise.
 
 
Thanks,
 
Mark
 
 



From: Denise P [mailto:pepabe...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Fri 1/16/2009 7:58 AM
To: TexasCavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online


So if people made a mistake and signed up not realizing they would be foregoing 
their hardcopy of the TC, can they unsign up (down?)?
 
-Denise

> From: mark.al...@l-3com.com
> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:40:24 -0600
> To: l...@alumni.sfu.ca; texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online
> 
> 
> No, Lyndon.
> 
> We agreed to strongly encourage everyone to sign up in the Members
> Section on the TSA website. 
> 
> By doing so, this would indicate that you would be accessing the site
> for each TC that comes out.
> 
> If you're on this Members List, you will NOT be receiving a hard copy.
> 
> We will gauge the response. We have 20 signed up, so far.
> 
> We may have to tweak this setup and, possibly, revisit in April.
> 
> More than one person has suggested going all electronic on the TC and
> charging more for those that want the hard copy.
> 
> 
> Lots of ideas and discussions and that's a good thing.
> 
> See you this evening, Lyndon. Drive careful and thanks for helping out!
> 
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Lyndon Tiu [mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca] 
> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:36 AM
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online
> 
> 
> On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:08:13 -0600 mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
> > We may revisit this in April and go to the two-tiered membership, 
> > A lower fee for electronic access only and a higher fee for a mailed
> TC.
> 
> Q: I forgot how we agreed on this. Is it by default, starting Q1 2009 -
> that everyone will NOT get a mailed hard copy unless they specifically
> request for it? And they only have to request once and all future copies
> will be mailed out to them or is it one request per issue?
> 
> Depending on the A to the above Q. An option is to sit this out and wait
> and observe how things go. If the majority are happy with the electronic
> version and only a few are being mailed out. Then we have solved the
> primary goal of having electronic copies - saving money.
> 
> I think a majority will opt for the electronic copy anyways. Only a few
> will want mailed hard copies. For the few that want it, let them have
> it.
> 
> I (not getting a hard copy) personally don't mind paying the same
> membership amount as a person who is getting his hard copy.
> 
> I believe most don't mind either.
> 
> --
> Lyndon Tiu
> 
> -
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Windows Live(tm): Keep your life in sync. Check it out. 
 

RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!

[Mark . Alman]

We can look into this option, Keith.
 
Another item for your "To Do List", huh. Butch?


Thanks,
 
Mark
 
 



From: Keith Goggin [mailto:ke...@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Fri 1/16/2009 7:58 AM
To: Alman, Mark @ IRP; Lyndon Tiu; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online


Maybe I've misread something, but seems to me that regardless of whether or not 
you pay more for a hard copy the digital copies should be available to all paid 
members.




From: "mark.al...@l-3com.com" 
To: Lyndon Tiu ; texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:40:24 AM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online


No, Lyndon.

We agreed to strongly encourage everyone to sign up in the Members
Section on the TSA website. 

By doing so, this would indicate that you would be accessing the site
for each TC that comes out.

If you're on this Members List, you will NOT be receiving a hard copy.

We will gauge the response. We have 20 signed up, so far.

We may have to tweak this setup and, possibly, revisit in April.

More than one person has suggested going all electronic on the TC and
charging more for those that want the hard copy.


Lots of ideas and discussions and that's a good thing.

See you this evening, Lyndon. Drive careful and thanks for helping out!


Mark



-Original Message-
From: Lyndon Tiu [mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca] 
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:36 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online


On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:08:13 -0600 mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
> We may revisit this in April and go to the two-tiered membership, 
> A lower fee for electronic access only and a higher fee for a mailed
TC.

Q: I forgot how we agreed on this. Is it by default, starting Q1 2009 -
that everyone will NOT get a mailed hard copy unless they specifically
request for it? And they only have to request once and all future copies
will be mailed out to them or is it one request per issue?

Depending on the A to the above Q. An option is to sit this out and wait
and observe how things go. If the majority are happy with the electronic
version and only a few are being mailed out. Then we have solved the
primary goal of having electronic copies - saving money.

I think a majority will opt for the electronic copy anyways. Only a few
will want mailed hard copies. For the few that want it, let them have
it.

I (not getting a hard copy) personally don't mind paying the same
membership amount as a person who is getting his hard copy.

I believe most don't mind either.

--
Lyndon Tiu

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Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!

[Lyndon Tiu]

On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:47:43 -0600 jran...@gmail.com wrote:
> Keeping the TSA simple is important.

+1

--
Lyndon Tiu

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RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!

[Denise P]

So if people made a mistake and signed up not realizing they would be foregoing 
their hardcopy of the TC, can they unsign up (down?)?
 
-Denise> From: mark.al...@l-3com.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:40:24 -0600> 
To: l...@alumni.sfu.ca; texascavers@texascavers.com> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] 
The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online> > > No, Lyndon.> > We agreed to strongly 
encourage everyone to sign up in the Members> Section on the TSA website. > > 
By doing so, this would indicate that you would be accessing the site> for each 
TC that comes out.> > If you're on this Members List, you will NOT be receiving 
a hard copy.> > We will gauge the response. We have 20 signed up, so far.> > We 
may have to tweak this setup and, possibly, revisit in April.> > More than one 
person has suggested going all electronic on the TC and> charging more for 
those that want the hard copy.> > > Lots of ideas and discussions and that's a 
good thing.> > See you this evening, Lyndon. Drive careful and thanks for 
helping out!> > > Mark> > > > -Original Message-> From: Lyndon Tiu 
[mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca] > Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:36 AM> To: 
texascavers@texascavers.com> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now 
Online> > > On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:08:13 -0600 mark.al...@l-3com.com 
wrote:> > We may revisit this in April and go to the two-tiered membership, > > 
A lower fee for electronic access only and a higher fee for a mailed> TC.> > Q: 
I forgot how we agreed on this. Is it by default, starting Q1 2009 -> that 
everyone will NOT get a mailed hard copy unless they specifically> request for 
it? And they only have to request once and all future copies> will be mailed 
out to them or is it one request per issue?> > Depending on the A to the above 
Q. An option is to sit this out and wait> and observe how things go. If the 
majority are happy with the electronic> version and only a few are being mailed 
out. Then we have solved the> primary goal of having electronic copies - saving 
money.> > I think a majority will opt for the electronic copy anyways. Only a 
few> will want mailed hard copies. For the few that want it, let them have> 
it.> > I (not getting a hard copy) personally don't mind paying the same> 
membership amount as a person who is getting his hard copy.> > I believe most 
don't mind either.> > --> Lyndon Tiu> > 
-> Visit 
our website: http://texascavers.com> To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com> For additional commands, e-mail: 
texascavers-h...@texascavers.com> > > 
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our website: http://texascavers.com> To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com> For additional commands, e-mail: 
texascavers-h...@texascavers.com> 
_
Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. 
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009

Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!

[Keith Goggin]

Maybe I've misread something, but seems to me that regardless of whether or not 
you pay more for a hard copy the digital copies should be available to all paid 
members.





From: "mark.al...@l-3com.com" 
To: Lyndon Tiu ; texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:40:24 AM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online


No, Lyndon.

We agreed to strongly encourage everyone to sign up in the Members
Section on the TSA website. 

By doing so, this would indicate that you would be accessing the site
for each TC that comes out.

If you're on this Members List, you will NOT be receiving a hard copy.

We will gauge the response. We have 20 signed up, so far.

We may have to tweak this setup and, possibly, revisit in April.

More than one person has suggested going all electronic on the TC and
charging more for those that want the hard copy.


Lots of ideas and discussions and that's a good thing.

See you this evening, Lyndon. Drive careful and thanks for helping out!


Mark



-Original Message-
From: Lyndon Tiu [mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca] 
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:36 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online


On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:08:13 -0600 mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
> We may revisit this in April and go to the two-tiered membership, 
> A lower fee for electronic access only and a higher fee for a mailed
TC.

Q: I forgot how we agreed on this. Is it by default, starting Q1 2009 -
that everyone will NOT get a mailed hard copy unless they specifically
request for it? And they only have to request once and all future copies
will be mailed out to them or is it one request per issue?

Depending on the A to the above Q. An option is to sit this out and wait
and observe how things go. If the majority are happy with the electronic
version and only a few are being mailed out. Then we have solved the
primary goal of having electronic copies - saving money.

I think a majority will opt for the electronic copy anyways. Only a few
will want mailed hard copies. For the few that want it, let them have
it.

I (not getting a hard copy) personally don't mind paying the same
membership amount as a person who is getting his hard copy.

I believe most don't mind either.

--
Lyndon Tiu

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Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!

[Lyndon Tiu]

On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:40:24 -0600 mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
> If you're on this Members List, you will NOT be receiving a hard copy.
>


Ah, oh. OK.

I just signed my rights way when I did that. I didn't even know what I was 
doing.

 
> We will gauge the response. We have 20 signed up, so far.
> 


Hmmm, so lets do the math. 20 cavers x $20 = $400 dollars saved. Is this enough 
to cover the folks who want hard copies mailed?

If so, then mission accomplished.

The tiered membership and "wontan" distribution issues are another set of 
issues we can deal with separately.


> We may have to tweak this setup and, possibly, revisit in April.
> 


Yes, sit and observe and see how it works from now till April.


> More than one person has suggested going all electronic on the TC and
> charging more for those that want the hard copy.
> 


I feel these are the vocal minority. Not representative of what most 
think/want. I think most don't care either ways. We just want to go caving. 

We can put this all to a vote in April if it's a really big deal. Otherwise, we 
can let it go if it works out alright for most.


> 
> Lots of ideas and discussions and that's a good thing.
>


Yes.

 
> See you this evening, Lyndon. Drive careful and thanks for helping out!
> 


I forgot the remote to the DVD! I need to head back home for it. Argh.

You, bring some DVDs along as well.


--
Lyndon Tiu

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Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!

[J. LaRue Thomas]

re: tiered memberships:

Cascade Grotto (Seattle area & north) has had lower dues for electronic 
Cascade Caver (.jpg) for many, many years and it seems to work just fine. I 
save all mine to a file. If my computer dies or disappears I'm pretty sure 
finding replacement Cascade Cavers will be a comparatively minor problem.


I think there's a $3.00 dues break for those of us who are electronic. 
Jacqui



- Original Message - 
From: "Lyndon Tiu" 

To: 
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online



On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:11:18   pepabe...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Could we make it where it's read only (not downloadable) on the web

site?



Not possible with the internet. In any form (pdf, html, ascii, ebcidic, 
etc), once you open and read it on your own computer, the binary 
reprentation of the text is transferred from the TSA web server to your 
computer. From there, you can copy it and distribute it "wontanly".


But, I am sure we can setup the PDF to self destruct after 30 minutes. 
Poof, Smoke ;)


--
Lyndon Tiu

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Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!

[Joe Ranzau]

Tiered dues -

A big reason is that this whole thing is run by volunteers.  Mark happens to
publish often, but give it a few years and things will change.  The people
who maintain the membership lists also volunteer and have high turnover.
Some are really detail oriented and others are not.  Most folks I know run
without a complete idea of what they are getting into.  Sometimes it is
nothing more than a popularity contest...  Use a database you say, sounds
simple but do you know how many people have no clue how to use them?

Keeping the TSA simple is important.  What does not seem like a big deal to
this group, has the potential to freak the next group out.

Of course our editor could just work within his budget and not go over (no
offense intended).  That would eliminate a lot of this discussion...

Joe

On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 7:41 AM, Keith Goggin  wrote:

> *So do it. Raise my dues. So what if it's another $10 a year? Ten dollars
> a year? If that breaks you, then you surely can't buy batteries for your LED
> light either.*
>
> Amen to that.  Hell, I'll even pay double so some poor caver doesn't have
> to cave in the dark.  An extra 10 bucks a year is <$0.03/day.  I'd rather
> spend my time hunting parking lots for enough spare change to cover the
> increase than I would spending it driving to a copy shop to get the thing
> printed (for even more money!).
>
> Why not have a Hard Copy rate and a Digital Only Rate (say, 10 dollars less
> - or whatever the actual cost of publication is)?
> Keith
>
>  --
> *From:* "speleoste...@tx.rr.com" 
> *To:* texascavers@texascavers.com; Terri Sprouse 
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 15, 2009 10:56:40 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online
>
>
>  Terri Sprouse  wrote:
>
> >> Peter thinks the solution is to raise the dues and keep printing the
> hard
> copies. I agree. <<
>
> So do it. Raise my dues. So what if it's another $10 a year? Ten dollars a
> year? If that breaks you, then you surely can't buy batteries for your LED
> light either.
>
> Bill
>
>
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>

Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!

[Lyndon Tiu]

On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:11:18   pepabe...@hotmail.com wrote:
 > Could we make it where it's read only (not downloadable) on the web
> site?
>

Not possible with the internet. In any form (pdf, html, ascii, ebcidic, etc), 
once you open and read it on your own computer, the binary reprentation of the 
text is transferred from the TSA web server to your computer. From there, you 
can copy it and distribute it "wontanly".

But, I am sure we can setup the PDF to self destruct after 30 minutes. Poof, 
Smoke ;)

--
Lyndon Tiu

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RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!

[Mark . Alman]

No, Lyndon.

We agreed to strongly encourage everyone to sign up in the Members
Section on the TSA website. 

By doing so, this would indicate that you would be accessing the site
for each TC that comes out.

If you're on this Members List, you will NOT be receiving a hard copy.

We will gauge the response. We have 20 signed up, so far.

We may have to tweak this setup and, possibly, revisit in April.

More than one person has suggested going all electronic on the TC and
charging more for those that want the hard copy.


Lots of ideas and discussions and that's a good thing.

See you this evening, Lyndon. Drive careful and thanks for helping out!


Mark



-Original Message-
From: Lyndon Tiu [mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca] 
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:36 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online


On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:08:13 -0600 mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
> We may revisit this in April and go to the two-tiered membership, 
> A lower fee for electronic access only and a higher fee for a mailed
TC.

Q: I forgot how we agreed on this. Is it by default, starting Q1 2009 -
that everyone will NOT get a mailed hard copy unless they specifically
request for it? And they only have to request once and all future copies
will be mailed out to them or is it one request per issue?

Depending on the A to the above Q. An option is to sit this out and wait
and observe how things go. If the majority are happy with the electronic
version and only a few are being mailed out. Then we have solved the
primary goal of having electronic copies - saving money.

I think a majority will opt for the electronic copy anyways. Only a few
will want mailed hard copies. For the few that want it, let them have
it.

I (not getting a hard copy) personally don't mind paying the same
membership amount as a person who is getting his hard copy.

I believe most don't mind either.

--
Lyndon Tiu

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Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!

[Keith Goggin]

So do it. Raise my dues. So what if it's another $10 a year? Ten dollars a 
year? If that breaks you, then you surely can't buy batteries for your LED 
light either.

Amen to that.  Hell, I'll even pay double so some poor caver doesn't have to 
cave in the dark.  An extra 10 bucks a year is <$0.03/day.  I'd rather spend my 
time hunting parking lots for enough spare change to cover the increase than I 
would spending it driving to a copy shop to get the thing printed (for even 
more money!).

Why not have a Hard Copy rate and a Digital Only Rate (say, 10 dollars less - 
or whatever the actual cost of publication is)?

Keith




From: "speleoste...@tx.rr.com" 
To: texascavers@texascavers.com; Terri Sprouse 
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 10:56:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online


 Terri Sprouse  wrote: 

>> Peter thinks the solution is to raise the dues and keep printing the hard 
copies. I agree. <<

So do it. Raise my dues. So what if it's another $10 a year? Ten dollars a 
year? If that breaks you, then you surely can't buy batteries for your LED 
light either.

Bill 


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Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!

[Lyndon Tiu]

On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:08:13 -0600 mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
> We may revisit this in April and go to the two-tiered membership, 
> A lower fee for electronic access only and a higher fee for a mailed TC.

Q: I forgot how we agreed on this. Is it by default, starting Q1 2009 - that 
everyone will NOT get a mailed hard copy unless they specifically request for 
it? And they only have to request once and all future copies will be mailed out 
to them or is it one request per issue?

Depending on the A to the above Q. An option is to sit this out and wait and 
observe how things go. If the majority are happy with the electronic version 
and only a few are being mailed out. Then we have solved the primary goal of 
having electronic copies - saving money.

I think a majority will opt for the electronic copy anyways. Only a few will 
want mailed hard copies. For the few that want it, let them have it.

I (not getting a hard copy) personally don't mind paying the same membership 
amount as a person who is getting his hard copy.

I believe most don't mind either.

--
Lyndon Tiu

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RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!

[Mark . Alman]

I learned something a LOONG time ago in one of the boring training
meeting we had here at work and it applies to a LOT of aspects in life:

 

 

NEVER WRITE SOMETHING THAT YOU WOULD BE UNCOMFORTABLE HAVING OTHERS READ
ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THE PAPER.

 

 

If you'll go by this simple edict, and I do, you'll never have a problem
with the wrong person reading the wrong thing.

 

 

'Nuff said.

 

 

Mark

 

 

 

 



From: Denise P [mailto:pepabe...@hotmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:11 AM
To: TexasCavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online

 

I see Terri's point about not having the CAVER able to be electronically
distributed all over, and folks losing their privacy. I know she gets up
to all kinds of mischief on trips she doesn't want her conservative
employers to know about! :)
 
Could we make it where it's read only (not downloadable) on the web
site? People who want a hardcopy could continue to receive one in the
mail.
 
I personally do not want a hardcopy or my dues raised (though I could
afford it, I'd rather not pay more, I support all kinds of organizations
in addition to the TSA), so I like this option.
 
I do not think the goal here is to eliminate all hardcopies, only those
for people who do not want them (a logical decision that saves money for
the TSA and a tree or two/barrel of oil). I really think the CAVER will
always be in print.
 
My two cents,
Denise

> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:28:00 -0800
> From: posada...@yahoo.com
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online
> 
> 
> Peter thinks the solution is to raise the dues and keep printing the
hard copies. I agree. Peter uses the Texas Caver as a resource - so long
term access is important. We have all of the Texas Cavers dating back to
1961 on our book shelves. Computers, programs, online data storage
systems crash, become outdated and change a lot, but data stored in the
bookcase is stable and reliable. The last thing we want is to look up
one day and realize that we have lost this source of information on
explored caves.
> 
> The prospect of having trip reports available online to non-members
(or to any large group of people in digital format) scares the hell out
of me. Most times, people on a caving trip have absolutely no control
over what is written about them in a trip report.
> 
> I would not like for anything that I write about in a trip report to
be easily forwarded to or accessible by the general public, employers,
clients, etc. . . . I don't want to gratuitously offer any more info on
anybody. The internet is grabby enough. Do we really want to feed that
monster?
> 
> Gezus
>

RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!

[Mark . Alman]

At the meeting Sunday morning (and it was a very large turnout), I don't
recall one person being in favor of raising dues.

We may revisit this in April and go to the two-tiered membership, 
A lower fee for electronic access only and a higher fee for a mailed TC.

We'll see how the response for this goes, but the reaction and sign up
seems to be positive and going well.

If anyone has other suggestions and ideas in keeping the TSA viable and
still affordable for folks, I suggest you be sure to make the meeting at
the TSA Convention.

We'll see y'all then and I'm glad to see this exchange of ideas. It
would have been better to have had them at the meeting Sunday, though.



Thanks,

Mark




-Original Message-
From: speleoste...@tx.rr.com [mailto:speleoste...@tx.rr.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 10:57 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com; Terri Sprouse
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online


 Terri Sprouse  wrote: 

>> Peter thinks the solution is to raise the dues and keep printing the
hard 
copies. I agree. <<

So do it. Raise my dues. So what if it's another $10 a year? Ten dollars
a year? If that breaks you, then you surely can't buy batteries for your
LED light either.

Bill 


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texascavers Digest 16 Jan 2009 13:11:17 -0000 Issue 688

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 16 Jan 2009 13:11:17 - Issue 688

Topics (messages 9895 through 9905):

Re: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online
9895 by: Lyndon Tiu
9896 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
9897 by: jerryatkin.aol.com
9899 by: Terri Sprouse
9900 by: Terri Sprouse
9902 by: Charles Goldsmith
9904 by: speleosteele.tx.rr.com
9905 by: Denise P

Re: Cow Springs Restoration Project News Release
9898 by: Mixon Bill

Re: Texas Caver online
9901 by: Charles Goldsmith

PDF distribution of Texas Caver
9903 by: Mixon Bill

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:


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To post to the list, e-mail:



--
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 13:02:53 -0700 mmin...@nmhu.edu wrote:
>   Of course, assuming one has a printer.  But that sort of defeats 
> the purpose of having an electronic copy so that one doesn't use up a
> lot of paper. 


Yes, that is a good reason not to print, funny cause I never thought about it. 
But that's actually a secondary reason for having electronic copies. The 
primary reason was to save the TSA some money.


> Actually, if the online Texas Caver issues are pdf


I sure hope these will be in PDF - tabloid sizes pages would be nice!


--
Lyndon Tiu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---

Yes, they're all PDF.



Mark



-Original Message-
From: Lyndon Tiu [mailto:l...@alumni.sfu.ca] 
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 2:11 PM
To: mmin...@nmhu.edu
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online

On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 13:02:53 -0700 mmin...@nmhu.edu wrote:
>   Of course, assuming one has a printer.  But that sort of defeats

> the purpose of having an electronic copy so that one doesn't use up a
> lot of paper. 


Yes, that is a good reason not to print, funny cause I never thought
about it. But that's actually a secondary reason for having electronic
copies. The primary reason was to save the TSA some money.


> Actually, if the online Texas Caver issues are pdf


I sure hope these will be in PDF - tabloid sizes pages would be nice!


--
Lyndon Tiu

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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where in the great beard of Oztotl did you all come up with a cost of $26 per 
member per copy of the Texas Caver ???  Is that supposed to be total cost per 
year per member ???  

Jerry.

-Original Message-
From: mark.al...@l-3com.com
To: TexasCavers 
Sent: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 1:08 pm
Subject: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online




To all PAID TSA members, 

 

 

 

It was decided this past weekend at the Winter Business Meeting at CBSP that in 
order to forestall an increase in TSA member fees, due mainly to the cost of 
printing the TC, we would like to offer PAID members the option of accessing 
The TEXAS CAVER electronically. 

 

Since the bulk of the TSA budget involves printing the TC, the current $20 
membership fee is insufficient to cover the cost of printing and mailing the 
TC, calculated at $26 per member/copy.

 

 

Do the math!

 

 

We did not think this was the best use of membership monies and our cash 
reserves would soon be depleted at this rate.

 

 

This where you come in.

 

 

Through the technical wizardry of our webmaster extraordinaire, Butch Fralia, 
PAID TSA members can now sign themselves up to view the latest TC online, each 
and every time!

 

But, that’s not all! 

 

 

“What else do I get by doing this and why should I bother?!”

 

 

Here’s why:

 

C2

· It will prevent a membership dues increase, hopefully, 
for quite a long time. In these tough economic times, who wants that?!

 

· This will free up a HUGE amount of TSA funds that can be 
better utilized on projects, other activities, equipment, and other more 

   worthwhile pursuits.

 

· You will have helped get the TSA “Back in Black”, 
hopefully, to stay.

 

· You will be able to view and download the latest TC in 
glorious FULL color, not just the cover in color in the mailed version.

 

· You will be able to view and download past issues of the 
TC in glorious FULL color, not just the cover in color mailed version. All of 

  the 2008 issues are already online and past issues that 
moi has been the Editor of will soon be added. Any back issues we can get our  

=C
2 grubby hands on will be added, as well!

 

· That tree-hugging part of you will rest peacefully in 
knowing that you

RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!

[Denise P]

I see Terri's point about not having the CAVER able to be electronically 
distributed all over, and folks losing their privacy. I know she gets up to all 
kinds of mischief on trips she doesn't want her conservative employers to know 
about! :)
 
Could we make it where it's read only (not downloadable) on the web site? 
People who want a hardcopy could continue to receive one in the mail.
 
I personally do not want a hardcopy or my dues raised (though I could afford 
it, I'd rather not pay more, I support all kinds of organizations in addition 
to the TSA), so I like this option.
 
I do not think the goal here is to eliminate all hardcopies, only those for 
people who do not want them (a logical decision that saves money for the TSA 
and a tree or two/barrel of oil). I really think the CAVER will always be in 
print.
 
My two cents,
Denise> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:28:00 -0800> From: posada...@yahoo.com> To: 
texascavers@texascavers.com> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now 
Online> > > Peter thinks the solution is to raise the dues and keep 
printing the hard copies. I agree. Peter uses the Texas Caver as a resource - 
so long term access is important. We have all of the Texas Cavers dating back 
to 1961 on our book shelves. Computers, programs, online data storage systems 
crash, become outdated and change a lot, but data stored in the bookcase is 
stable and reliable. The last thing we want is to look up one day and realize 
that we have lost this source of information on explored caves.> > The prospect 
of having trip reports available online to non-members (or to any large group 
of people in digital format) scares the hell out of me. Most times, people on a 
caving trip have absolutely no control over what is written about them in a 
trip report.> > I would not like for anything that I write about in a trip 
report to be easily forwarded to or accessible by the general public, 
employers, clients, etc. . . . I don't want to gratuitously offer any more info 
on anybody. The internet is grabby enough. Do we really want to feed that 
monster?> > Gezus> > --- On Thu, 1/15/09, jerryat...@aol.com 
 wrote:> > > From: jerryat...@aol.com > 
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online> > To: 
mark.al...@l-3com.com, texascavers@texascavers.com> > Date: Thursday, January 
15, 2009, 7:32 PM> > Where in the great beard of Oztotl did you all come up 
with> > a cost of $26 per member per copy of the Texas Caver ??? > > Is that 
supposed to be total cost per year per member ??? > > > > Jerry.> > > > 
-Original Message-> > From: mark.al...@l-3com.com> > To: TexasCavers 
> > Sent: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 1:08 pm> > Subject: 
[Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online> > > > > > > > > > To all PAID 
TSA members, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was decided this past weekend 
at the Winter Business> > Meeting at CBSP that in order to forestall an 
increase in> > TSA member fees, due mainly to the cost of printing the TC,> > 
we would like to offer PAID members the option of accessing> > The TEXAS CAVER 
electronically. > > > > > > > > Since the bulk of the TSA budget involves 
printing the TC,> > the current $20 membership fee is insufficient to cover 
the> > cost of printing and mailing the TC, calculated at $26 per> > 
member/copy.> > > > > > > > > > > > Do the math!> > > > > > > > > > > > We did 
not think this was the best use of membership monies> > and our cash reserves 
would soon be depleted at this rate.> > > > > > > > > > > > This where you come 
in.> > > > > > > > > > > > Through the technical wizardry of our webmaster> > 
extraordinaire, Butch Fralia, PAID TSA members can now sign> > themselves up to 
view the latest TC online, each and every> > time!> > > > > > > > But, that’s 
not all! > > > > > > > > > > > > “What else do I get by doing this and why 
should I> > bother?!”> > > > > > > > > > > > Here’s why:> > > > > > > > C2> > > 
> · It will prevent> > a membership dues increase, hopefully, for quite a long> 
> time. In these tough economic times, who wants that?!> > > > > > > > · This 
will free> > up a HUGE amount of TSA funds that can be better utilized on> > 
projects, other activities, equipment, and other more > > > > worthwhile> > 
pursuits.> > > > > > > > · You will have> > helped get the TSA “Back in Black”, 
hopefully, to stay.> > > > > > > > · You will be able> > to view and download 
the latest TC in glorious FULL color,> > not just the cover in color in the 
mailed version.> > > > > > > > · You will be able> > to view and download past 
issues of the TC in glorious FULL> > color, not just the cover in color mailed 
version. All of > > > > the 2008 issues> > are already online and past issues 
that moi has been the> > Editor of will soon be added. Any back issues we can 
get> > our > > > > =C> > 2 grubby hands on> > will be added, as well!> > > > > 
> > > · That> > tree-hugging part of you will rest peacefully in knowing> > 
that you have helped pre

Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!!

[Bill Bentley]

I am registered and download all 4 issues... ( Super high Speed connection
here 40 mb down and 20 mb up) But I get an error on opening? Says there was
a problem opening this document. I get it open only no color pictures...I am
running Adobe 7.0


Bill
- Original Message - 
From: 
To: "Charles Goldsmith" 
Cc: "TexasCavers" 
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 2:05 PM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online



You're welcome, Charles.


That's why we get paid the big bucks!

Oh, wait! I wasn't supposed to say that.   8^)>



Thanks,

Mark




-Original Message-
From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org]
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 2:07 PM
To: Alman, Mark @ IRP
Cc: TexasCavers
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online

Mark, and the rest of the TSA board, a big THANK YOU!

This was long overdue, but a great step.

Charles

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