Re: [Texascavers] TSA & volunteering
Mike Moore, before he passed on, scanned and converted almost every Texas caver from 1974 to 1999 into html?including a nifty little display engine.? It was considered for mass member and public distribution but it was decided that copyright issues needed to be solved first. Also, some of the authors felt pretty strongly that their articles were not appropriate for public domain release.? Those issues would still need to be addressed. Jerry. -Original Message- From: Diana Tomchick To: Cave Tex Sent: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:32 am Subject: [Texascavers] TSA & volunteering All this wonderful time and effort people have been spending both writing and reading and proffering opinions about the TSA! Barack Obama would be proud to know that someone out there in CaveTex land has volunteered to scan many, many editions of old Texas Cavers' and get them into a compact, easy-to-read format on a CD to be distributed to members.? ? Wait, you say that no one has offered to do this, yet so many people would like to see it done? I think I see a great community service opportunity waiting for volunteers...and I've seen so much evidence that there are plenty of people out there with ample time to spend expounding on the issue.? ? Diana? ? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *? Diana R. Tomchick? Associate Professor? University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center? Department of Biochemistry? 5323 Harry Hines Blvd.? Rm. ND10.214B Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A. Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu? 214-645-6383 (phone)? 214-645-6353 (fax)? ? -? Visit our website: http://texascavers.com? To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com? For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com? ?
[ot_caving] midnight stuff
At 06:04 PM 1/20/2009, Fritz Holt wrote: It will be interesting to see what the Obama administration's position on this matter will be. As a professional problem solver and amateur arbitrator it is my guess that at some point the demands of both the environment and the energy industry will result in technically advanced practices and equipment which will permit recovery of oil and gas with absolutely minimal impact. Obama seems to be the sort of concept-grasping middle-of-the-road extremist who could get such a project well on the way to being a reality. Although the eventual end of hydrocarbon based fuels should probably be the long range goal, it will probably persist well into the depths of the current century as the timeline for the development of efficient alternative energy sources is also speeded up. Whatever it is, however, some enterprising capitalist is still gonna try to get you to put your money into their hands for it. Catch rainwater; harness the sun for heat and power; grow gardens; create good karma. --Ediger - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
texascavers Digest 21 Jan 2009 00:26:14 -0000 Issue 696
texascavers Digest 21 Jan 2009 00:26:14 - Issue 696 Topics (messages 10014 through 10031): Viewpoint 2 10014 by: Gill Ediger 10015 by: Don Arburn 10016 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com 10017 by: Terri Sprouse 10018 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com UT Grotto Meeting Wednesday, January 20 10019 by: Gary Franklin TSA & volunteering 10020 by: Diana Tomchick 10024 by: Fritz Holt 10025 by: Diana Tomchick 10026 by: Fritz Holt Texas Caver 10021 by: Terri Sprouse 10022 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com 10023 by: Don Arburn Re: All this latest stuff 10027 by: Bill Bentley Texas Caver and the Karst Information Portal 10028 by: George Veni Texas Caver and the Karst Information Portal 2 10029 by: Gill Ediger on-line reprinting 10030 by: Mixon Bill On Serving the National Speleological Society 10031 by: speleosteele.tx.rr.com Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: -- --- Begin Message --- At 05:38 PM 1/19/2009, Geoff Hoese wrote: The TSA exists to serve the interests of its members. Yes. But that's sorta like saying that motherhood is a good thing. It's pretty much unqualified. There are a couple of sides to that argument, of course. One is completely selfish; the other is benevolent and fulfilling. Over simplifying here, I will say that one only addresses the "What can I get for myself out of this organization? Then gimme it!" What they have in mind and what they get is pretty much an inanimate object in the form of The TEXAS CAVER. Their dues and that tangible object are related in their minds--one begats the other and vice versa. That the TSA never does anything else for them (or that they never expect for the TSA to do anything else for them) is of little consequence. In their minds one is the other. Aside from the pride and prestige of being a member--for whatever that's worth--they expect little more than The CAVER and infrequent (mostly non-caving) events where they can see old friends, sit around a campfire drinking beer, and telling war stories. Pretty exciting and fulfilling, huh? Then there is the practical side of the "What can the TSA do for me?" contingent. They are the ones who are interested in the TSA 'making caving better for them and, benevolently, other cavers,' not just sending them a fancy publication. They ask several questions: How is the TSA working to solve problems caused by new or independent or non-cavers that affect my access to many caves? What is the TSA doing to prevent bad publicity? What is the TSA doing to encourage and promote good publicity? How is the TSA educating cavers to improve cave and landowner relations? How is the TSA promoting safe cave exploration? What is the TSA doing to educate non-cavers as to the dangers of cave environment and ground water polution? How is the TSA reaching out to new cavers to encourage them to join their fellow cavers in the TSA? What is the TSA doing to educate new cavers about established techniques and equipment and all cavers in timely advances in those fields? How is the TSA promoting the discovery of new caves? How is anything the TSA is doing contributing to making caving better for me and my friends and, even, for cavers I will never know or come in contact with? In short, how is the TSA affecting my caving positively? These--and more--are the questions that caver members of the TSA could claim that the TSA ought to be responding to for its members. In numbers there is strength and the more caver-members that the TSA has the larger the caver base and collective skills and knowledge and man power it has to pursue its goals and purposes--all to the benefit of each other and the various entities of the 'association'--not just the narrow "me, me, me" mentality of newsletter only members. And that is something not so tangible as The TEXAS CAVER but much more valuable as a service to cavers and caving in the long run. The TSA--the Texas Region--was formed by cavers who strived to attract all (or as many as posible) cavers into a common-interest group which could better address mutual caving problems (landowner relations, safety, training, creature comforts) and increase a caver's sphere of acquaintences within the caving community--again to members' individual and mutual benefit. It was so important that they wrote that into their first constitution as a part of their goals and purposes. You can read that as a benefit: more friends means more opportunity to go on more trips to explore more caves and more and diverse knowledge about caves and equipment and techniques and all sorts of other intangible but significantly valuable perks th
[Texascavers] On Serving the National Speleological Society
Hi cavers, Last fall the outgoing president of the NSS recruited me to serve as this year's Nominating Committee Chairman. It is my duty to find candidates for the four director positions (of 12) for which there will be an election this spring. Directors are members of the NSS' Board of Governors. The newly elected directors will take office during the ICS in Texas in July. I encourage you to consider serving in a national-level position with the NSS. Being an NSS director is a prestigious position in American speleology. Currently there are no directors from Texas, but there have been several in times past. Bill Mixon has served, Gill Ediger too, Ronnie Fieseler, I have, and so on. We could sure use representation again. If you would like to talk to me about it, please feel free to e-mail me or call me. My cell phone number is 214-770-4712. Permission is granted to post this on other caver listservs. Sincerely, Bill Steele NSS 8072 Irving, Texas Information on serving as an NSS director: The deadline for the 2009 Annual Board election is February 9, 2009. Submission Requirements are as follows: 1. Biographical and platform text must be submitted in Arial 10pt and fit into a 3 1/2" wide x 8 1/2" long column. 2. A head-and-shoulders or head only candidate photo saved by the photographer as a grayscale *.tif or *.pcx 1 1/2" square must also be submitted. In your biographical information be sure to include any training and experience you have administratively, in management, marketing, or accounting and budget reading. Candidates are encouraged to address specific, current issues faced by the Society or in running the business of the NSS. Be assertive in stating your favor or opposition. Feel free to advise the membership what you plan to do as their representative voice on the Board and to move the Society forward as a whole. Information about serving as an NSS Director: Serving as a Director is a large responsibility and a great experience. Below you will find some basic information about the Board and Director responsibilities. I also invite you to visit the Business Pages of the NSS web site, www.caves.org/nss-business. Here you will find a wealth of information including past meeting history, minutes, and agendas of upcoming meetings. You can review the various NSS committees you may choose to participate in and which Officers supervise them. You can view the Bylaws, the BOG Manual, and information about the COG. Taken from the NSS Board of Governors Manual: "Directorate (Directors) The Directorate is made up of twelve directors elected by the members of the Society. To be eligible, the person must be a regular or higher member of the Society. Each director serves a three-year term and the terms are staggered so that four directors are elected each year. Directors are expected to attend each meeting of the Board of Governors or the Directorate (usually three a year (one of which is always Monday and Friday of the NSS Convention), every other year another is attached to the NCKMS usually in October and the other dates and locations vary depending upon the hosting grotto or section. Travel expenses are the responsibility of each Director-mas). However, if they cannot attend, they may appoint another member of the Society as their proxy. Annually, the directors elect one of their number to serve as Chairman of the Directorate. This chairman presides when the Directorate meets alone. They also elect a chairman of the Executive Search Committee. It is the responsibility of the Executive Search Committee to maintain a list of people qualified willing to become officers of the Society. The prime responsibility of the directors is the election of the officers of the Society and, with the officers as a Board of Governors, set policies for conducting the official business of the Society. They also serve on committees and review the activities of all the committees. All Society policies are established by the Board of Governors." It is both desirable and important to find individuals who have good experience in administration, business management, marketing and accounting/budget reading, and who understand the goals of the Society. We also seek those willing to put aside their own views and be sensitive to the needs, viewpoints and concerns of the member majority they represent when voting on issues impacting the membership and forward movement of the Society. We need good folks who can bring balance to the Board table and stimulate real thought over issues. Cavers with knowledge of and exposure at the grotto, regional or national level are the most successful candidates. There is a serious amount of e-mail traffic as most hot topics and agenda motions are discussed prior to the actual meetings. If you do not personally know any of the current directors, contact information for current or past Directors can be pro
[Texascavers] on-line reprinting
I don't think it is necessary to take advantage of the Karst Information Portal in the event you want some old publications accessible to everybody on the Web. If you make a PDF, even just from scanned images of the pages, Acrobat Professional can then OCR the PDF. The result can be a PDF file that looks exactly like the original (because you're viewing the scans) but has underlying it the OCRed text, which can be searched. Assuming that Google searches PDF files on the Web as well as HTML files, posting such things on any group's Web site, assuming there's no password or similar protection, should make it accessible. I know the Spotlight disk-indexing program on my Mac sees the full text of such PDF files. Alternately, you can also get Acrobat Professional to make a version with the OCR text replacing the scanned text (not hidden beneath it), but with the images (photos, etc) intact and in place. Unfortunately, it tries to OCR all text, including labels and symbols on maps, and sometimes makes a bit of a mess of things like that. (It also can't deal with words with accented letters in them, which is a real problem for AMCS material, although its mistakes can be tediously corrected.) Given such a PDF, Acrobat can then supposedly export it as HTML, which could be posted and indexed by Google for sure. I haven't actually tried either of these methods as far as confirming Google's ability to index them, because the AMCS so far hasn't posted any books on its own Web site. I have, however, given KIP some old AMCS things (the ones we sell on CD as un-OCRed PDFs) to put in their library of on-line materials. Go, for example, to www.karstportal.org -> Resources -> Publications -> Association for Mexican Cave Studies Bulletin, then pick one. If you then click the link above the full title at the left, the PDF will be loaded by your browser. (They are large files, best to do "download linked file" rather than let it tie up your browser.) The KIP people tell me that their index includes only keywords that their indexers select for each article or issue. However, I've downloaded their PDF version of one of the AMCS bulletins, and while I was looking at the images of the pages, Spotlight indexed the full text, just as if their PDF had been made and OCRed by Acrobat as described above, although they seem to claim they are using some other software. Curious. Maybe they didn't use their usual process because the stuff I sent them was already scanned and made into PDF file of the graphic page images. I'm one of those apparently rare people who thinks cave info should be available to everybody, so I'm all in favor of the Karst Information Portal, and it will likely make things available that otherwise wouldn't be. And hopefully their Web site will be more permanent than some random caving club's might be. But you _can_ do it yourself with a scanner and common software. -- Mixon -- You may "reply" to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [ot_caving] more midnight stuff overturned
Quinta, It will be interesting to see what the Obama administration's position on this matter will be. Please keep us informed. Thanks. Fritz From: Quinta Wilkinson [mailto:qui...@clearwire.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 5:35 PM To: o...@texascavers.com Subject: [ot_caving] more midnight stuff overturned Just FYI on federal land stuff. Quinta It's Inauguration Day and all of us are focused on the historic proceedings in Washington. But I wanted to share a fantastic piece of environmental news because I know it will lift your spirits even more. On Saturday night, a federal judge ruled in our favor and blocked the Bush Administration from proceeding with the lease sale of 110,000 acres of Utah's Redrock wilderness to oil and gas companies. This is a huge victory for our nation's legacy of public lands -- and a final rebuke to the Bush Administration as it slinks out of town. As you know, Bush's Bureau of Land Management auctioned off our Redrock wildlands on December 19, and was determined to close those transactions before the Obama Administration could take office. But thanks to your outpouring of financial support, NRDC and our environmental partners raced to federal court and asked for a temporary restraining order. This weekend, Judge Ricardo M. Urbina granted that restraining order, saying that "the development of energy resources...is far outweighed by the public interest in avoiding irreparable damage to public lands and the environment." The case will be heard later in 2009. Until that time, the government is prohibited from cashing the checks that industry issued for the contested wilderness. Of course, we're hoping that President Obama's Interior Department will act quickly to reverse Bush's attempted giveaway of our natural heritage. Indeed, this terrific court victory, combined with President Obama's inauguration, should herald a new era in which America strives to secure a clean energy future without destroying our birthright of public lands.
[ot_caving] more midnight stuff overturned
Just FYI on federal land stuff. Quinta It's Inauguration Day and all of us are focused on the historic proceedings in Washington. But I wanted to share a fantastic piece of environmental news because I know it will lift your spirits even more. On Saturday night, a federal judge ruled in our favor and blocked the Bush Administration from proceeding with the lease sale of 110,000 acres of Utah's Redrock wilderness to oil and gas companies. This is a huge victory for our nation's legacy of public lands -- and a final rebuke to the Bush Administration as it slinks out of town. As you know, Bush's Bureau of Land Management auctioned off our Redrock wildlands on December 19, and was determined to close those transactions before the Obama Administration could take office. But thanks to your outpouring of financial support, NRDC and our environmental partners raced to federal court and asked for a temporary restraining order. This weekend, Judge Ricardo M. Urbina granted that restraining order, saying that "the development of energy resources...is far outweighed by the public interest in avoiding irreparable damage to public lands and the environment." The case will be heard later in 2009. Until that time, the government is prohibited from cashing the checks that industry issued for the contested wilderness. Of course, we're hoping that President Obama's Interior Department will act quickly to reverse Bush's attempted giveaway of our natural heritage. Indeed, this terrific court victory, combined with President Obama's inauguration, should herald a new era in which America strives to secure a clean energy future without destroying our birthright of public lands.
[Texascavers] Texas Caver and the Karst Information Portal 2
At 02:21 PM 1/20/2009, George Veni wrote: I've been holding back one idea, planning to raise it at the TSA meeting in April, Well, I'm glad you set it loose now, George. It fully backs up and strengthens the specific details of what I've been banging away about for the past few days. If you haven't taken the time to read George's entire post, please do so. About a dozen or 14 years ago I suggested a similar on-line service to be run by AMCS which would solicit ALL articles published world-wide in any language about Mexico and Mexican caving trips and make it available for downloading or just reading. Further, each article would be submitted to translaters for converting into most of the other popular languanges used by cavers these days--all on-line. The photos would be the same but captions and text would be available for reading in nearly any language a caver speaks. It would certainly create interest in the AMCS and perhaps provide an outlet for AMCS publications from the past as well as inspiring people to share their caving information about Mexico. --Ediger - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] Texas Caver and the Karst Information Portal
I've been holding back one idea, planning to raise it at the TSA meeting in April, but Diana's comment below prompts me to mention it now for people to consider. Have you been to the Karst Information Portal (www.karstportal.org)? It is the result of a partnership between the National Cave and Karst Research Institute, the University of South Florida, the University of New Mexico, and the International Union of Speleology. The purpose of the KIP is to serve as a multidisciplinary tool to support cave and karst science, exploration, education, and management. Currently most of the information is strongly leaning toward the sciences, but that only reflects the interests of the people initially involved. More information on exploration and general caving is appearing. The KIP offers many resources, but the key one relative to the Texas Caver topic is the posting of journals and newsletters for on-line reading and download. The goal is not just to post them, but have all of the text digitally recognizable and searchable so that when you search for material on any cave or topic, the KIP will not just search the titles of articles or a few keywords, it will search the entire content of the articles, notes, tables, figures, and other posted material. The Texas Caver could be one of those newsletters available to the world on the KIP. I understand some people have misgivings about posting the TC on the web. Reasons include not giving for free what was paid for, copyright, security of possible sensitive information, etc. Many other newsletters and journals have easily worked through these issues and posted their publications. The NSS and AMCS are among those organizations that have posted some of their publications. Time is extraordinarily tight for me (there is this thing called the International Congress of Speleology that I'm working on), so I won't discuss this much more, if at all, on this forum. I encourage people to look at the KIP and discuss it on-line and with the TSA officers. I'll be glad to offer more details and answer questions at the TSA meeting. For now, I offer the following thoughts to consider: Why post on the KIP? The same question can be asked of the Texas Caver. The reason we write for newsletters and journals, submit photos and maps, is to share information. The KIP allows us to share our information with the world. There are many good things going on in Texas that would interest many cavers outside of Texas, much like many Texas cavers read about areas and caves outside of Texas that they will likely never visit. The Texas Caver is too good to be restricted to only the couple hundred people who happen to subscribe at any given time. How much work would this be for Texas cavers? The staff at the University of South Florida is already scanning hardcopy material for posting on the KIP. They include copyright experts who make sure those concerns are addressed. They will be glad to do the work and provide high quality digital and searchable scans that everyone can use. For current and future volumes of the TC, when the issues are created, it would be simple for the Texas Caver editors to e-mail the issues to the KIP. Would this discourage people from joining TSA, if the TC can be accessed for free on the KIP? Many studies have shown that posting books and information online actually increases sales and membership. This initially seems counterintuitive, but is true. On-line posting gives people a "test drive" which builds interest, support, and sales. TSA could also decide to not post material younger than a couple of years if it wants hold back recent issues for members only. There is plenty of flexibility for TSA or any organization to develop a custom-fit way of providing information to the KIP. Is this offer limited to TSA? No. Any organization (TSS, TCMA, TCC, AMCS, PEP, grottos, etc.) that wants to post its publications on the KIP is welcome to do so. Contact the KIP via the information listed online for details to make it happen. George -Original Message- From: Diana Tomchick [mailto:diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu] Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 9:33 AM To: Cave Tex Subject: [Texascavers] TSA & volunteering All this wonderful time and effort people have been spending both writing and reading and proffering opinions about the TSA! Barack Obama would be proud to know that someone out there in CaveTex land has volunteered to scan many, many editions of old Texas Cavers' and get them into a compact, easy-to-read format on a CD to be distributed to members. Wait, you say that no one has offered to do this, yet so many people would like to see it done? I think I see a great community service opportunity waiting for volunteers...and I've seen so much evidence that there are plenty of people out there with ample time to spend expounding on the issue. Diana * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Diana R. Tomchick Associate Professor Uni
Re: [Texascavers] All this latest stuff
[Texascavers] All this latest stuffI just read "The Day the Cowboys Quit" by Elmer Kelton and started "Slaughter" by Elmer Kelton... Both very good books... I didn't read very much early in my life, but have discovered a wondrous world of entertainment later on... Oh glad I was missed...My thoughts is to have both a printed and electronic TC, I will pay a reasonable membership fee and make all of the back issues of the TC available (in time) on line or on a CD/DVD for a price... Bill - Original Message - From: mark.al...@l-3com.com To: J. LaRue Thomas ; Texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 8:15 AM Subject: RE: [Texascavers] All this latest stuff Thanks for your well thought out and measured response, Jacqui. We did miss you, Bill B., Walter, and the other PBSS members and we value your opinions as well as ALL of the opinions of the other TSA members that weren't present. All opinions and ideas are welcomed and equal, even if your voice doesn't carry quite so far as some others. The simple fact, though, is that when you have an issue presented at a meeting, you have to go with the overwhelming wishes of the members present, and that's what we did. I am glad to see that we have over 20 members that have signed up for electronic access to the TC, but, that is still not enough to get us back into the black budget wise, IMHO. As y'all will soon find out, I may be an independent voter, but, I'm a fiscal conservative when it comes to members' money and think the TSA needs to get back to the business of caving as our main thrust, with a nice side benefit of a slick newsletter that is published quarterly (bi-monthly?) to keep the members informed as to what other members have been up to. This is my vision for the TSA and I hope you agree. This is how it was years ago and I it seems to be a good way to go. If the response remains poor, we will have to revisit this issue and contemplate raising fees, at least for those who prefer the hard copy. Maybe a decrease in fees for those that go strictly electronic. As you said, we'll see how this current action goes and revisit in April. http://www.cavetexas.org/members/index.php As far as books read, I picked up The DaVinci Code for a buck at a garage sale. What a great book! I betcha it would have made a great movie and I'm surprised it didn't sell a lot of books! 8^)> I'm now reading Excavation by James Rollins (caves, Inca ruins and curses, and an evil arm of the Catholic Church) and God Bless John Wayne! by Kinky Friedman. See you in April, Jacqui, and all other TSA members! Thanks, Mark -- From: J. LaRue Thomas [mailto:jlrbi...@sonoratx.net] Sent: Tue 1/20/2009 7:44 AM To: Texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] All this latest stuff All, I have been in TSA a few years and know most of you. I know no one means to say my opinions do not mean anything because I had a prior commitment to a PBSS project and chose missing Winter meeting over disappointing a landowner. (This is why Winter meeting had no PBSS attendees). But when you say members who can't/don't show up at meetings have no say in TSA affairs you are flat-out wrong. We are members; we have a say. I am pleased to know there will be a posted agenda for the next meeting, because members can then contact the secretary to get items added to the agenda. People who cannot attend will feel represented and people who are interested in any or all agenda irems will be certain to be there. A decision was made re: electronic Caver. Let us either sign up for the Caver online or keep with the hard copy. We have degenerated into second-guessing and opining and it's time to go with the decision. We can't reevaluate anything if no one gives the new plan a chance. Let's all give it our best shot and put reevaluation on the agenda of the Spring meeting. Anybody read any good books lately? (Oh, Mixon, thanks for the review; the world needs more grammar police). Regards, Jacqui Thomas - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] TSA & volunteering
Just ribbing you. Wrong, at my age I don't have much time left. Ribbing me now as I plan to live for the rest of my life. Geezer -Original Message- From: Diana Tomchick [mailto:diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu] Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 12:00 PM To: Fritz Holt Cc: Cave Tex Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TSA & volunteering I already have volunteered to help organize the speakers for the TSA Convention, and I'm a grotto newsletter editor and officer. I have no additional time right now for such a task. But you might have some time. Diana On Jan 20, 2009, at 11:46 AM, Fritz Holt wrote: > I thought that I heard an offer in Diana's post. > > -Original Message- > From: Diana Tomchick [mailto:diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:33 AM > To: Cave Tex > Subject: [Texascavers] TSA & volunteering > > All this wonderful time and effort people have been spending both > writing and reading and proffering opinions about the TSA! Barack > Obama would be proud to know that someone out there in CaveTex land > has volunteered to scan many, many editions of old Texas Cavers' and > get them into a compact, easy-to-read format on a CD to be distributed > to members. > > Wait, you say that no one has offered to do this, yet so many people > would like to see it done? I think I see a great community service > opportunity waiting for volunteers...and I've seen so much evidence > that there are plenty of people out there with ample time to spend > expounding on the issue. > > Diana > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > Diana R. Tomchick > Associate Professor > University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center > Department of Biochemistry > 5323 Harry Hines Blvd. > Rm. ND10.214B > Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A. > Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu > 214-645-6383 (phone) > 214-645-6353 (fax) > > > - > Visit our website: http://texascavers.com > To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com > For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Diana R. Tomchick Associate Professor University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center Department of Biochemistry 5323 Harry Hines Blvd. Rm. ND10.214B Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A. Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu 214-645-6383 (phone) 214-645-6353 (fax) - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] TSA & volunteering
I already have volunteered to help organize the speakers for the TSA Convention, and I'm a grotto newsletter editor and officer. I have no additional time right now for such a task. But you might have some time. Diana On Jan 20, 2009, at 11:46 AM, Fritz Holt wrote: I thought that I heard an offer in Diana's post. -Original Message- From: Diana Tomchick [mailto:diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu] Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:33 AM To: Cave Tex Subject: [Texascavers] TSA & volunteering All this wonderful time and effort people have been spending both writing and reading and proffering opinions about the TSA! Barack Obama would be proud to know that someone out there in CaveTex land has volunteered to scan many, many editions of old Texas Cavers' and get them into a compact, easy-to-read format on a CD to be distributed to members. Wait, you say that no one has offered to do this, yet so many people would like to see it done? I think I see a great community service opportunity waiting for volunteers...and I've seen so much evidence that there are plenty of people out there with ample time to spend expounding on the issue. Diana * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Diana R. Tomchick Associate Professor University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center Department of Biochemistry 5323 Harry Hines Blvd. Rm. ND10.214B Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A. Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu 214-645-6383 (phone) 214-645-6353 (fax) - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Diana R. Tomchick Associate Professor University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center Department of Biochemistry 5323 Harry Hines Blvd. Rm. ND10.214B Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A. Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu 214-645-6383 (phone) 214-645-6353 (fax) - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] TSA & volunteering
I thought that I heard an offer in Diana's post. -Original Message- From: Diana Tomchick [mailto:diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu] Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:33 AM To: Cave Tex Subject: [Texascavers] TSA & volunteering All this wonderful time and effort people have been spending both writing and reading and proffering opinions about the TSA! Barack Obama would be proud to know that someone out there in CaveTex land has volunteered to scan many, many editions of old Texas Cavers' and get them into a compact, easy-to-read format on a CD to be distributed to members. Wait, you say that no one has offered to do this, yet so many people would like to see it done? I think I see a great community service opportunity waiting for volunteers...and I've seen so much evidence that there are plenty of people out there with ample time to spend expounding on the issue. Diana * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Diana R. Tomchick Associate Professor University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center Department of Biochemistry 5323 Harry Hines Blvd. Rm. ND10.214B Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A. Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu 214-645-6383 (phone) 214-645-6353 (fax) - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] Re: Texas Caver
Um, guys, trim your cc's. I'm getting two and three of everything. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 20, 2009, at 11:32 AM, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Thanks, Terri. The more Gill, the better! The TSA could use more folks like him and him as a member. I'm working on that! Mark -Original Message- From: Terri Sprouse [mailto:terri.spro...@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 11:33 AM To: Gill Ediger; Don Arburn; Alman, Mark @ IRP Cc: Texas Cavers List Subject: Texas Caver Mr. Chairman, I think you have done a great job so far on getting the Texas Caver published in a timely manner. You certainly deserve kudo's for that! I am somewhat concerned about the online access, but I am more concerned about ensuring that the Texas Caver continues to be published. I will support your being Editor as long as you want to be the Editor, and continue to provide the published Texas Caver in a timely manner. Just offering to help if you need it. Sounds like Gil has big plans for your new TSA agenda. Terri --- On Tue, 1/20/09, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: It's "Chairman", Terri, and I kind of like doing the Caver. 8^)> Thanks, though! Mark - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] RE: Texas Caver
Thanks, Terri. The more Gill, the better! The TSA could use more folks like him and him as a member. I'm working on that! Mark -Original Message- From: Terri Sprouse [mailto:terri.spro...@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 11:33 AM To: Gill Ediger; Don Arburn; Alman, Mark @ IRP Cc: Texas Cavers List Subject: Texas Caver Mr. Chairman, I think you have done a great job so far on getting the Texas Caver published in a timely manner. You certainly deserve kudo's for that! I am somewhat concerned about the online access, but I am more concerned about ensuring that the Texas Caver continues to be published. I will support your being Editor as long as you want to be the Editor, and continue to provide the published Texas Caver in a timely manner. Just offering to help if you need it. Sounds like Gil has big plans for your new TSA agenda. Terri --- On Tue, 1/20/09, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: > It's "Chairman", Terri, and I kind of like > doing the Caver. 8^)> > > > Thanks, though! > > > Mark > - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] Texas Caver
Mr. Chairman, I think you have done a great job so far on getting the Texas Caver published in a timely manner. You certainly deserve kudo's for that! I am somewhat concerned about the online access, but I am more concerned about ensuring that the Texas Caver continues to be published. I will support your being Editor as long as you want to be the Editor, and continue to provide the published Texas Caver in a timely manner. Just offering to help if you need it. Sounds like Gil has big plans for your new TSA agenda. Terri --- On Tue, 1/20/09, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: > It's "Chairman", Terri, and I kind of like > doing the Caver. 8^)> > > > Thanks, though! > > > Mark > - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] TSA & volunteering
All this wonderful time and effort people have been spending both writing and reading and proffering opinions about the TSA! Barack Obama would be proud to know that someone out there in CaveTex land has volunteered to scan many, many editions of old Texas Cavers' and get them into a compact, easy-to-read format on a CD to be distributed to members. Wait, you say that no one has offered to do this, yet so many people would like to see it done? I think I see a great community service opportunity waiting for volunteers...and I've seen so much evidence that there are plenty of people out there with ample time to spend expounding on the issue. Diana * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Diana R. Tomchick Associate Professor University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center Department of Biochemistry 5323 Harry Hines Blvd. Rm. ND10.214B Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A. Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu 214-645-6383 (phone) 214-645-6353 (fax) - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] UT Grotto Meeting Wednesday, January 20
Underground Texas Grotto meeting – Wednesday, January 20, 2009 www.utgrotto.org The meeting is on Wednesday from 7:45 P.M. - 9:00 P.M. University of Texas Campus, 2.48 Painter Hall, Austin Texas. http://www.utexas.edu/maps/main/buildings/pai.html Geary Schindel (NSS 15827), who is the Edwards Aquifer Authority - Chief Technical Officer and has been immersed in caving community activities for decades, will share some of his vast experience of acquired geological and caving knowledge in his presentation of insights into the geology of the Edwards Aquifer, Where is the longest cave in Texas?...From San Antonio to San Marcos Come out for an excellent program along with updates to what these Texas cavers have been doing along with updates of upcoming projects and trips where you could participate. Also, join us for the fun at the after meeting of beer, burgers, and tall tales along with potential trip recruitment at the Posse East. Please be aware that many of the University of Texas parking lot signs have been changed to reflect No Unpermitted Parking where the campus police actively patrol and ticket violators. UT Grotto is always looking for contributions to the excellent series of Programs. Contact Gary v...@utgrotto.org if you are interested in sharing your cave related events. Hope to see you tomorrow night. - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Viewpoint 2
It's "Chairman", Terri, and I kind of like doing the Caver. 8^)> Thanks, though! Mark From: Terri Sprouse [mailto:terri.spro...@yahoo.com] Sent: Tue 1/20/2009 10:42 AM To: Gill Ediger; Don Arburn Cc: Texas Cavers List Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Viewpoint 2 Oh, alright. I offer to take over as Editor of the Texas Caver to free up Mark Alman, our TSA President, to focus on all of these more important TSA activities. --- On Tue, 1/20/09, Don Arburn wrote: > > And so, my fellow cavers, ask not what the Caver can do for > you - but what can I do for the Caver! >
Re: [Texascavers] Viewpoint 2
Oh, alright. I offer to take over as Editor of the Texas Caver to free up Mark Alman, our TSA President, to focus on all of these more important TSA activities. --- On Tue, 1/20/09, Don Arburn wrote: > > And so, my fellow cavers, ask not what the Caver can do for > you - but what can I do for the Caver! > > > On Jan 20, 2009, at 9:57 AM, Gill Ediger > wrote: > > > At 05:38 PM 1/19/2009, Geoff Hoese wrote: > >> The TSA exists to serve the interests of its > members. > > > > Yes. But that's sorta like saying that motherhood > is a good thing. It's pretty much unqualified. > > > > There are a couple of sides to that argument, of > course. One is completely selfish; the other is benevolent > and fulfilling. > > > > Over simplifying here, I will say that one only > addresses the "What can I get for myself out of this > organization? Then gimme it!" What they have in mind > and what they get is pretty much an inanimate object in the > form of The TEXAS CAVER. Their dues and that tangible object > are related in their minds--one begats the other and vice > versa. That the TSA never does anything else for them (or > that they never expect for the TSA to do anything else for > them) is of little consequence. In their minds one is the > other. Aside from the pride and prestige of being a > member--for whatever that's worth--they expect little > more than The CAVER and infrequent (mostly non-caving) > events where they can see old friends, sit around a campfire > drinking beer, and telling war stories. Pretty exciting and > fulfilling, huh? > > > > Then there is the practical side of the "What can > the TSA do for me?" contingent. They are the ones who > are interested in the TSA 'making caving better for them > and, benevolently, other cavers,' not just sending them > a fancy publication. They ask several questions: > >How is the TSA working to solve problems caused by > new or independent or non-cavers that affect my access to > many caves? > >What is the TSA doing to prevent bad publicity? > >What is the TSA doing to encourage and promote good > publicity? > >How is the TSA educating cavers to improve cave and > landowner relations? > >How is the TSA promoting safe cave exploration? > >What is the TSA doing to educate non-cavers as to > the dangers of cave environment and ground water polution? > >How is the TSA reaching out to new cavers to > encourage them to join their fellow cavers in the TSA? > >What is the TSA doing to educate new cavers about > established techniques and equipment and all cavers in > timely advances in those fields? > >How is the TSA promoting the discovery of new > caves? > >How is anything the TSA is doing contributing to > making caving better for me and my friends and, even, for > cavers I will never know or come in contact with? > >In short, how is the TSA affecting my caving > positively? > > > > These--and more--are the questions that caver members > of the TSA could claim that the TSA ought to be responding > to for its members. In numbers there is strength and the > more caver-members that the TSA has the larger the caver > base and collective skills and knowledge and man power it > has to pursue its goals and purposes--all to the benefit of > each other and the various entities of the > 'association'--not just the narrow "me, me, > me" mentality of newsletter only members. And that is > something not so tangible as The TEXAS CAVER but much more > valuable as a service to cavers and caving in the long run. > The TSA--the Texas Region--was formed by cavers who strived > to attract all (or as many as posible) cavers into a > common-interest group which could better address mutual > caving problems (landowner relations, safety, training, > creature comforts) and increase a caver's sphere of > acquaintences within the caving community--again to > members' individual and mutual benefit. It was so > important that they wrote that into their first constitution > as a part of their goals and purposes. You can read that as > a benefit: more friends means more opportunity to go on more > trips to explore more caves and more and diverse knowledge > about caves and equipment and techniques and all sorts of > other intangible but significantly valuable perks that most > cavers would appreciate. That (or those) would seem to me to > be the sort of things that the TSA should pursue in order > "to serve the interests of its members". > Understand, for sure, that The TEXAS CAVER is an important > vector in that pursuit of those goals and purposes. It is > chock-full of excactly the kind of information that the new > and independent caver ought to be receiving from the TSA in > pursuit of it's goals and purposes--and those of our > fellow, but unknown, cavers. But if they don't receive > The CAVER, if they aren't attracted to join the TSA, how > will they know? How will that "serve the interests of > its members?" > > > > While The TEXAS C
RE: [Texascavers] Viewpoint 2
Aye carumba! Although, it's probably apropos on Inauguration Day. Mark From: Don Arburn [mailto:donarb...@mac.com] Sent: Tue 1/20/2009 10:14 AM To: Gill Ediger Cc: Texas Cavers List Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Viewpoint 2 And so, my fellow cavers, ask not what the Caver can do for you - but what can I do for the Caver! Sent from my iPhone
Re: [Texascavers] Viewpoint 2
And so, my fellow cavers, ask not what the Caver can do for you - but what can I do for the Caver! Sent from my iPhone On Jan 20, 2009, at 9:57 AM, Gill Ediger wrote: At 05:38 PM 1/19/2009, Geoff Hoese wrote: The TSA exists to serve the interests of its members. Yes. But that's sorta like saying that motherhood is a good thing. It's pretty much unqualified. There are a couple of sides to that argument, of course. One is completely selfish; the other is benevolent and fulfilling. Over simplifying here, I will say that one only addresses the "What can I get for myself out of this organization? Then gimme it!" What they have in mind and what they get is pretty much an inanimate object in the form of The TEXAS CAVER. Their dues and that tangible object are related in their minds--one begats the other and vice versa. That the TSA never does anything else for them (or that they never expect for the TSA to do anything else for them) is of little consequence. In their minds one is the other. Aside from the pride and prestige of being a member--for whatever that's worth--they expect little more than The CAVER and infrequent (mostly non-caving) events where they can see old friends, sit around a campfire drinking beer, and telling war stories. Pretty exciting and fulfilling, huh? Then there is the practical side of the "What can the TSA do for me?" contingent. They are the ones who are interested in the TSA 'making caving better for them and, benevolently, other cavers,' not just sending them a fancy publication. They ask several questions: How is the TSA working to solve problems caused by new or independent or non-cavers that affect my access to many caves? What is the TSA doing to prevent bad publicity? What is the TSA doing to encourage and promote good publicity? How is the TSA educating cavers to improve cave and landowner relations? How is the TSA promoting safe cave exploration? What is the TSA doing to educate non-cavers as to the dangers of cave environment and ground water polution? How is the TSA reaching out to new cavers to encourage them to join their fellow cavers in the TSA? What is the TSA doing to educate new cavers about established techniques and equipment and all cavers in timely advances in those fields? How is the TSA promoting the discovery of new caves? How is anything the TSA is doing contributing to making caving better for me and my friends and, even, for cavers I will never know or come in contact with? In short, how is the TSA affecting my caving positively? These--and more--are the questions that caver members of the TSA could claim that the TSA ought to be responding to for its members. In numbers there is strength and the more caver-members that the TSA has the larger the caver base and collective skills and knowledge and man power it has to pursue its goals and purposes--all to the benefit of each other and the various entities of the 'association'-- not just the narrow "me, me, me" mentality of newsletter only members. And that is something not so tangible as The TEXAS CAVER but much more valuable as a service to cavers and caving in the long run. The TSA--the Texas Region--was formed by cavers who strived to attract all (or as many as posible) cavers into a common-interest group which could better address mutual caving problems (landowner relations, safety, training, creature comforts) and increase a caver's sphere of acquaintences within the caving community--again to members' individual and mutual benefit. It was so important that they wrote that into their first constitution as a part of their goals and purposes. You can read that as a benefit: more friends means more opportunity to go on more trips to explore more caves and more and diverse knowledge about caves and equipment and techniques and all sorts of other intangible but significantly valuable perks that most cavers would appreciate. That (or those) would seem to me to be the sort of things that the TSA should pursue in order "to serve the interests of its members". Understand, for sure, that The TEXAS CAVER is an important vector in that pursuit of those goals and purposes. It is chock-full of excactly the kind of information that the new and independent caver ought to be receiving from the TSA in pursuit of it's goals and purposes--and those of our fellow, but unknown, cavers. But if they don't receive The CAVER, if they aren't attracted to join the TSA, how will they know? How will that "serve the interests of its members?" While The TEXAS CAVER is a valuable, tangible tool of the TSA in the pursuit of its goals and purposes, it is the intangible tools that the TSA provides (or should provide) its members that give it the ability "to serve the interests of its members" which, ostensibly, is the pursuit of caving. So long as someone is still an act
[Texascavers] Viewpoint 2
At 05:38 PM 1/19/2009, Geoff Hoese wrote: The TSA exists to serve the interests of its members. Yes. But that's sorta like saying that motherhood is a good thing. It's pretty much unqualified. There are a couple of sides to that argument, of course. One is completely selfish; the other is benevolent and fulfilling. Over simplifying here, I will say that one only addresses the "What can I get for myself out of this organization? Then gimme it!" What they have in mind and what they get is pretty much an inanimate object in the form of The TEXAS CAVER. Their dues and that tangible object are related in their minds--one begats the other and vice versa. That the TSA never does anything else for them (or that they never expect for the TSA to do anything else for them) is of little consequence. In their minds one is the other. Aside from the pride and prestige of being a member--for whatever that's worth--they expect little more than The CAVER and infrequent (mostly non-caving) events where they can see old friends, sit around a campfire drinking beer, and telling war stories. Pretty exciting and fulfilling, huh? Then there is the practical side of the "What can the TSA do for me?" contingent. They are the ones who are interested in the TSA 'making caving better for them and, benevolently, other cavers,' not just sending them a fancy publication. They ask several questions: How is the TSA working to solve problems caused by new or independent or non-cavers that affect my access to many caves? What is the TSA doing to prevent bad publicity? What is the TSA doing to encourage and promote good publicity? How is the TSA educating cavers to improve cave and landowner relations? How is the TSA promoting safe cave exploration? What is the TSA doing to educate non-cavers as to the dangers of cave environment and ground water polution? How is the TSA reaching out to new cavers to encourage them to join their fellow cavers in the TSA? What is the TSA doing to educate new cavers about established techniques and equipment and all cavers in timely advances in those fields? How is the TSA promoting the discovery of new caves? How is anything the TSA is doing contributing to making caving better for me and my friends and, even, for cavers I will never know or come in contact with? In short, how is the TSA affecting my caving positively? These--and more--are the questions that caver members of the TSA could claim that the TSA ought to be responding to for its members. In numbers there is strength and the more caver-members that the TSA has the larger the caver base and collective skills and knowledge and man power it has to pursue its goals and purposes--all to the benefit of each other and the various entities of the 'association'--not just the narrow "me, me, me" mentality of newsletter only members. And that is something not so tangible as The TEXAS CAVER but much more valuable as a service to cavers and caving in the long run. The TSA--the Texas Region--was formed by cavers who strived to attract all (or as many as posible) cavers into a common-interest group which could better address mutual caving problems (landowner relations, safety, training, creature comforts) and increase a caver's sphere of acquaintences within the caving community--again to members' individual and mutual benefit. It was so important that they wrote that into their first constitution as a part of their goals and purposes. You can read that as a benefit: more friends means more opportunity to go on more trips to explore more caves and more and diverse knowledge about caves and equipment and techniques and all sorts of other intangible but significantly valuable perks that most cavers would appreciate. That (or those) would seem to me to be the sort of things that the TSA should pursue in order "to serve the interests of its members". Understand, for sure, that The TEXAS CAVER is an important vector in that pursuit of those goals and purposes. It is chock-full of excactly the kind of information that the new and independent caver ought to be receiving from the TSA in pursuit of it's goals and purposes--and those of our fellow, but unknown, cavers. But if they don't receive The CAVER, if they aren't attracted to join the TSA, how will they know? How will that "serve the interests of its members?" While The TEXAS CAVER is a valuable, tangible tool of the TSA in the pursuit of its goals and purposes, it is the intangible tools that the TSA provides (or should provide) its members that give it the ability "to serve the interests of its members" which, ostensibly, is the pursuit of caving. So long as someone is still an active caver it's the interface with other active cavers and the mutual well-being of them all that ought to receive the primary effort and attention of the TSA. To have all these new cavers appear on the scene each year and
texascavers Digest 20 Jan 2009 14:18:57 -0000 Issue 695
texascavers Digest 20 Jan 2009 14:18:57 - Issue 695 Topics (messages through 10013): Re: [Bitching & the Caver] by: Lyndon Tiu 1 by: Joe Ranzau 10001 by: Lyndon Tiu 10002 by: Lyndon Tiu 10003 by: Don Arburn minutes 2 10004 by: Gill Ediger Apathy, etc 10005 by: Gill Ediger Viewpoint of a TSA Member (was RE: [Texascavers] [Bitching & the Caver]) 10006 by: Geoff H Re: Viewpoint of a TSA Member (was RE: [Texascavers] [Bitching & the Caver] 10007 by: Charles Goldsmith 10008 by: Geoff H 10012 by: Joe Ranzau Re: Viewpoint of a TSA Member (was RE: [Texascavers] [Bitching & the Caver 10009 by: Charles Goldsmith book review: cave diving manual 10010 by: Mixon Bill All this latest stuff 10011 by: J. LaRue Thomas 10013 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: -- --- Begin Message --- My suggestions: 1) Single tier annual membership dues = $10. No hard copy TC. Online PDF access only. All past editions available. Money funds caving events, projects and property aquisitions. 2) If you wish to have a hard copy of the TC mailed. Go to the "TSA Store" and purchase a subscription. You also go to the TSA Store to purchase hard copy past editions of the TC. The cost will be what the hard copy actually costs to print and mail. You can purchase subscriptions/past editions from the TSA Store regardless of your TSA membership. -- Lyndon Tiu --- End Message --- --- Begin Message --- Lyndon, keep some perspective... The TSA has folks who have been members longer than we have been alive. It all seems so obvious and simple but it's not. Joe j...@oztotl.com Sent while mobile On Jan 19, 2009, at 10:11 AM, Lyndon Tiu wrote: My suggestions: 1) Single tier annual membership dues = $10. No hard copy TC. Online PDF access only. All past editions available. Money funds caving events, projects and property aquisitions. 2) If you wish to have a hard copy of the TC mailed. Go to the "TSA Store" and purchase a subscription. You also go to the TSA Store to purchase hard copy past editions of the TC. The cost will be what the hard copy actually costs to print and mail. You can purchase subscriptions/past editions from the TSA Store regardless of your TSA membership. -- Lyndon Tiu - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com --- End Message --- --- Begin Message --- On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 10:32:23 -0600 jran...@gmail.com wrote: > Lyndon, keep some perspective... The TSA has folks who have been > members longer than we have been alive. It all seems so obvious and > simple but it's not. > I don't think it is simple either. It's never simple. But it does not mean we give up and not try to solve this issue. I am just trying to suggest a few things that could work. The TC is draining the TSA coffers. That to me is a serious issue that needs to be addressed. Thanks for your note. -- Lyndon Tiu --- End Message --- --- Begin Message --- On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 08:11:11 -0800 l...@alumni.sfu.ca wrote: > Go to the "TSA > Store" and purchase a subscription. I figure from what Lee Jay said at the TSA meeting about traffic being very low at the TSA Store. I suppose we can solve two problems at once by using the TSA store for TC hard copy subscriptions ... -- Lyndon Tiu --- End Message --- --- Begin Message --- Wonderful suggestions all. Remember them (and all the others from decades past) at the next TSA meeting. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 19, 2009, at 10:43 AM, Lyndon Tiu wrote: On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 08:11:11 -0800 l...@alumni.sfu.ca wrote: Go to the "TSA Store" and purchase a subscription. I figure from what Lee Jay said at the TSA meeting about traffic being very low at the TSA Store. I suppose we can solve two problems at once by using the TSA store for TC hard copy subscriptions ... -- Lyndon Tiu - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com --- End Message --- --- Begin Message --- At 08:59 AM 1/19/2009, you wrote: Actually from what I recall of Robert's Rules, Denise went above and beyond in her minutes... The complete Treasurer's report spreadsheet should just be added as an attachment. Thanks for the hard work! That's right. And very few secretaries are required to keep minutes specifying the details of the debate--who said what. Although
RE: [Texascavers] All this latest stuff
Thanks for your well thought out and measured response, Jacqui. We did miss you, Bill B., Walter, and the other PBSS members and we value your opinions as well as ALL of the opinions of the other TSA members that weren't present. All opinions and ideas are welcomed and equal, even if your voice doesn't carry quite so far as some others. The simple fact, though, is that when you have an issue presented at a meeting, you have to go with the overwhelming wishes of the members present, and that's what we did. I am glad to see that we have over 20 members that have signed up for electronic access to the TC, but, that is still not enough to get us back into the black budget wise, IMHO. As y'all will soon find out, I may be an independent voter, but, I'm a fiscal conservative when it comes to members' money and think the TSA needs to get back to the business of caving as our main thrust, with a nice side benefit of a slick newsletter that is published quarterly (bi-monthly?) to keep the members informed as to what other members have been up to. This is my vision for the TSA and I hope you agree. This is how it was years ago and I it seems to be a good way to go. If the response remains poor, we will have to revisit this issue and contemplate raising fees, at least for those who prefer the hard copy. Maybe a decrease in fees for those that go strictly electronic. As you said, we'll see how this current action goes and revisit in April. http://www.cavetexas.org/members/index.php As far as books read, I picked up The DaVinci Code for a buck at a garage sale. What a great book! I betcha it would have made a great movie and I'm surprised it didn't sell a lot of books! 8^)> I'm now reading Excavation by James Rollins (caves, Inca ruins and curses, and an evil arm of the Catholic Church) and God Bless John Wayne! by Kinky Friedman. See you in April, Jacqui, and all other TSA members! Thanks, Mark From: J. LaRue Thomas [mailto:jlrbi...@sonoratx.net] Sent: Tue 1/20/2009 7:44 AM To: Texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] All this latest stuff All, I have been in TSA a few years and know most of you. I know no one means to say my opinions do not mean anything because I had a prior commitment to a PBSS project and chose missing Winter meeting over disappointing a landowner. (This is why Winter meeting had no PBSS attendees). But when you say members who can't/don't show up at meetings have no say in TSA affairs you are flat-out wrong. We are members; we have a say. I am pleased to know there will be a posted agenda for the next meeting, because members can then contact the secretary to get items added to the agenda. People who cannot attend will feel represented and people who are interested in any or all agenda irems will be certain to be there. A decision was made re: electronic Caver. Let us either sign up for the Caver online or keep with the hard copy. We have degenerated into second-guessing and opining and it's time to go with the decision. We can't reevaluate anything if no one gives the new plan a chance. Let's all give it our best shot and put reevaluation on the agenda of the Spring meeting. Anybody read any good books lately? (Oh, Mixon, thanks for the review; the world needs more grammar police). Regards, Jacqui Thomas - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Viewpoint of a TSA Member (was RE: [Texascavers] [Bitching & the Caver]
Geoff and Jacqui make a good point, the TSA is nothing without the membership. Their opinions do matter and should at least be considered. I wrote my first message under the assumption that they were being heard. I guess, to me it is a little like Paris Hilton, she was really into the Vote or Die thing for John Kerry, seems she forgot you actually needed to register to vote... She made a good impact but in the end, the strongest thing she could have done was unavailable to her. Where I disagree with them, is that attending the meeting and voting is the strongest way to influence change. I think talking to others and expressing opinions does have a good deal of influence. As a TSA officer, I did that a good bit to see what people wanted. I think Mark and the others do as well. I also think it means very little if you don't follow through and vote and the other side does and you loose. Seems weird and a bit self defeating, if you want something, go get it, don't just talk about it and then passively walk away when you don't get your way... Now in the end, it takes all of us, not voting is fine, I actually didn't see either of you upset about the outcome, which is good, I was speaking to those angry folks who don't bother to be involved at all but then want to be considered. I'm not sure if I'm the one who belittled your opinions for not being there to vote, if I did than it was unintended, I completely understand things happen, I think freedom of speech is huge and encourage it, but in the end, if you don't get your/our way, tough cookies. Joe On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 5:38 PM, Geoff H wrote: > > I don't regularly follow cavetex, and more rarely post, but I think there's > one or two recurrent themes here that merit reflection. > > My membership should not mean any less to the organization because I missed > the last meeting. There's just one tier of membership. (some organizations > have multiple tiers - sustaining, associate, voting/non-voting, whatever. I > don't want that level of complication in the TSA.) The TSA exists to serve > the interests of its members. This is probably constrained somewhat by > language somewhere about serving the interests of caving in texas, > conservation, and maybe one or two more things of that sort, but for the > most part, it should do what a significant portion of its membership wants > it to do. It doesn't matter if they go to meetings, or post on Cavetex, or > just sit quietly at home and never go out. If they are members, the > organization should consider what they want. > > Conversely, my desires for what I want the organization to do should not > mean more if I did attend the last meeting. Regardless of if an opinion was > proffered at the last meeting, or at a grotto meeting, via cavetex, while > caving, or in any fashion, my expectation as a member is that the officers > would take that opinion, consider how it refects to the desires of the > membership as a whole, and act only with thought and consideration of all > viewpoints. > > It can be very difficult to understand the opinions and desires of the > membership, as it is often contradictory and usually obscure. Most members > don't express an opinion, and although they often may not have one, the > organization cannot safely presume to know, much less act, on any action of > significance without understanding what its members want. It takes effort > for an organization to understand its members. Unfortunately, it's much > easier to assume what people want, or perhaps worse, what they need. In rare > circumstances this works extremely well, but in most, it results in friction > and controversy, and will drive people away. > > The level of effort it takes to understand the wants and needs of the > members often means that the organization is hampered, and does not quickly > move into doing new things. Fortunately, this is usually what the members > want. For the most part, people become involved with something they like, so > naturally the organization is doing what they want it to do. When the > organization does something the members don't want, or just moves too > quickly, the membership may object, or may just cease to be involved. > > People are usually open to compromise, but when an organization does things > that they don't want, they usually don't complain as much as they just fade > away. They won't volunteer, they won't show up at the next meeting. They > won't bother to send in a check next time, or the time after that. Members > usually want the organization to stick to the fundamentals and not get too > far from the basics. A few people are there because they like the mechanics > of running an organization, or the politics, or a handful of other reasons, > but most are members because it furthers the goals of what they do outside > of the organization. If it hampers rather than helps, if it distracts rather > than informs, it's going to be something to be avoided rather than
[Texascavers] All this latest stuff
All, I have been in TSA a few years and know most of you. I know no one means to say my opinions do not mean anything because I had a prior commitment to a PBSS project and chose missing Winter meeting over disappointing a landowner. (This is why Winter meeting had no PBSS attendees). But when you say members who can't/don't show up at meetings have no say in TSA affairs you are flat-out wrong. We are members; we have a say. I am pleased to know there will be a posted agenda for the next meeting, because members can then contact the secretary to get items added to the agenda. People who cannot attend will feel represented and people who are interested in any or all agenda irems will be certain to be there. A decision was made re: electronic Caver. Let us either sign up for the Caver online or keep with the hard copy. We have degenerated into second-guessing and opining and it's time to go with the decision. We can't reevaluate anything if no one gives the new plan a chance. Let's all give it our best shot and put reevaluation on the agenda of the Spring meeting. Anybody read any good books lately? (Oh, Mixon, thanks for the review; the world needs more grammar police). Regards, Jacqui Thomas - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
