[tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi David

Just to a couple of the answers already given by Eric and Mario:

a) The single most important plugin I use is SharedTiddlers, which lets me
> have a "base" wiki which contains nearly all the plugins I use (except
> SharedTiddlers itself...) and then a bunch of topic wikis that refer to the
> "base" for all enhancments ... plugins, configuration, etc.  That way
> when I introduce a new plugin to my repertoire ... or a plugin is upgraded
> ... I do it in one place - base.html - and it is available in all my wikis
> instantly and automatically.  Does SharedTiddlers exist in TW5 or is there
> another way to get this vital functionality?
>

It's probably not what you were looking for, but there is a very flexible
equivalent of shared tiddlers under the Node.js configuration of
TiddlyWiki. Individual tiddlers are stored as individual, separate files.
Directories of tiddlers can be chained together and shared between wikis.


> b) TextArea - to adjust the size of the area of the new tiddler I'm
> creating.
>

Edit text areas in TW5 automatically adjust their height to fit their
content.


> c) RearrangeTiddlers - I just like to organize several tiddlers I'm
> reading at the moment.
>

buggyj has a plugin for this:

http://bjtools.tiddlyspot.com/#TagList


> Best wishes

Jeremy

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[tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[PMario]

Hi David, 

On Friday, March 20, 2015 at 8:25:54 PM UTC+1, David Bakin wrote:
>
> I am a happy user of TWC.  Every few months I check this group to see how 
> TW5 is coming along and I was very happy to read this message - until I 
> released it was 3 months old.  Has this moratorium paid off?  Is there 
> documentation and a plugin list for new users?  I hope so!
>

IMO documentation improved, but there will be never enough. So feedback and 
help is very welcome!

There has been some development according to the plugin library and the 
possibility to install plugins from the web within a file TW. see: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7tRvAj1ZG9s#t=1492

The upcoming 5.1.8 version will have a basic core plugin library manager. 

The tiddlywiki community tiddler and Tobi 
Beers TW  will be good starting 
points.

 

> Here's my state:  I have several useful TWC wikis in progress ... some 
> have several hundred tiddlers.  Even though there's very little theming 
> done I have only read that a) TWC tiddlers can't be directly imported to 
> TW5 and b) there's a tool "in progress" that will convert "most" tiddlers 
> (but no specification of what gets converted and what doesn't).
>

TW will import TWC tiddlers as mime type text/x-tiddlywiki, which are shown 
as plain text by TW. ... There is a button, that lets you set the type to 
text/vnd.tiddlywiki. ... but the formatting will be broken since TW uses a 
slightly different wiki text. Most noticeable will be, that TWC wasn't able 
to create proper paragraphs. TW5 will need 2 newlines to indicate the 
beginning of a new paragraph. 1 newline will be ignored. ...

There is an edit toolbar plugin from Stephen 
http://tw5editor.tiddlyspot.com/ that can help you adjust text for TW. 

 

> I'm willing to learn the new markup language, and in fact, I'm willing to 
> start new wikis from scratch (new topics) but my blocking issue is that I 
> do rely on several TWC plugins and I have no idea what the equivalent is in 
> TW5 or if it is available.  So in the interests of progressing, I hope 
> you'll be able to answer for me what the equivalent of the following is in 
> TW5 or what I should be doing instead:
>
> a) The single most important plugin I use is SharedTiddlers, which lets me 
> have a "base" wiki which contains nearly all the plugins I use (except 
> SharedTiddlers itself...) and then a bunch of topic wikis that refer to the 
> "base" for all enhancments ... plugins, configuration, etc.  That way 
> when I introduce a new plugin to my repertoire ... or a plugin is upgraded 
> ... I do it in one place - base.html - and it is available in all my wikis 
> instantly and automatically.  Does SharedTiddlers exist in TW5 or is there 
> another way to get this vital functionality?
>

There is no SharedTiddlers equivalent. ... But TiddlyDesktop 
may be interesting. 
 

> b) TextArea - to adjust the size of the area of the new tiddler I'm 
> creating.
>

Just go to tiddlywiki.com edit a tiddler and have a look, if it does what 
you want. .. I don't know, what you want here. 
 

> c) RearrangeTiddlers - I just like to organize several tiddlers I'm 
> reading at the moment.
>

There is no drag and drop functionality in the core atm but the feature is 
requested very often.
 

> d) ForEachTiddler - I've written little utilities like a macro that 
> deletes all tiddlers with a given tag.
>

list macros and list widget can do all the things and a lot more, without 
javascript programming. Have a look at Tobie Beers site. 
 

> e) DisableWikiLinks - sometimes it's more convenient than using individual 
> markup
>

Every parser rule has its own unique name. eg: bold
So if you start a tiddler with 

\rule except bold 

This tiddler will ignore the ''bold'' formatting rule. The opposite is:

\rules only bold italic underscore

So only bold italic and underscore will be recogniced.  

So there are a lot of possibilities.


 

> f) MathJax - I can move up to KaTeX ... I assume the markup to signal TeX 
> is similar, so this probably isn't a problem.
>

There is a KaTeX plugin.
 

> Really, the lack of documentation and the different plugin support are the 
> major major blockers for me.  I just isn't practical to search google 
> groups to find answers to questions like "what's available" - things are so 
> scattered.
>

Giving proper feedback and help out is highly appreciated and highly 
needed. We just don't have enough man power. 

 

> I will very much appreciate your help in getting me going on TW5 by 
> letting me know what the right way to handle each of the needs that the 
> above TWC plugins do for me.  And also, am I right that I might as well NOT 
> convert my old TWC wikis?
>

If TWC works for you stay with it for your "working stuff" and try to use 
TW5 for new wikis. .. IMO that's the best way to start. 
 

>   Or does

[tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Eric Shulman]

On Friday, March 20, 2015 at 12:25:54 PM UTC-7, David Bakin wrote:
>
> Here's my state:  I have several useful TWC wikis in progress ... some 
> have several hundred tiddlers.  Even though there's very little theming 
> done I have only read that a) TWC tiddlers can't be directly imported to 
> TW5 and b) there's a tool "in progress" that will convert "most" tiddlers 
> (but no specification of what gets converted and what doesn't).
>
> I'm willing to learn the new markup language, and in fact, I'm willing to 
> start new wikis from scratch (new topics) but my blocking issue is that I 
> do rely on several TWC plugins and I have no idea what the equivalent is in 
> TW5 or if it is available.  So in the interests of progressing, I hope 
> you'll be able to answer for me what the equivalent of the following is in 
> TW5 or what I should be doing instead:
>

One of the best features of TWC (and TW5 in 'standalone' single file use), 
is that all the programming for the system is self-contained in the same 
file with your document data, so that there is no risk of "version skew" 
when upgrading.  You can continue to use your existing TWC documents even 
as you get "up to speed" creating new TW5 documents from scratch.  As you 
learn more TW5 syntax and techniques, you will eventually become 
comfortable enough with TW5 that you will be able to tackle the migration 
of your existing TWC content.  Of course, you can always decide that you 
don't need to convert your TWC documents, and just use TW5 for new things.

a) The single most important plugin I use is SharedTiddlers, which lets me 
> have a "base" wiki which contains nearly all the plugins I use (except 
> SharedTiddlers itself...) and then a bunch of topic wikis that refer to the 
> "base" for all enhancments ... plugins, configuration, etc.  That way 
> when I introduce a new plugin to my repertoire ... or a plugin is upgraded 
> ... I do it in one place - base.html - and it is available in all my wikis 
> instantly and automatically.  Does SharedTiddlers exist in TW5 or is there 
> another way to get this vital functionality?
>

Jeremy has talked quite a bit about Ward Cunningham's "Federated Wiki" 
concept, which can readily support a SharedTiddlers model of use. 
 However... the implementation is not yet there.  One of the major concerns 
is about security... because TWC allows some embedded scripting (e.g., 
onClick handlers in HTML code, evaluated parameters in TWC macros, etc.) 
within tiddlers, it is a possible vector for malicious code... especially 
in a "SharedTiddlers" situation, where the tiddlers can be coming from 
non-trusted sources.  Some of the TW5 strategies for closing this security 
gap include "sanitizing" the tiddler content to remove all embedded 
... elements, as well as all "onXXX" handlers in HTML code.

b) TextArea - to adjust the size of the area of the new tiddler I'm 
> creating.
>

Most modern browsers now include a small "stretch box" on textarea input 
fields.  Simple grab the lower right corner of the text box and you can 
resize it.  This is a browser-level feature, and is completely independent 
of TiddlyWiki code.
 

> c) RearrangeTiddlers - I just like to organize several tiddlers I'm 
> reading at the moment.
>

I like this feature too (that why I wrote it!).  In TW5, the current 
contents of the "story river" are continuously tracked in [[$:/StoryList]]. 
 Editing the tiddlers listed there to change their order will immediately 
update the order the tiddlers current displayed in the story river. 
 However, there is not YET any "drag and drop" handling to achieve this 
interactively.  TW5 has some built-in handling for drag-and-drop, via the 
$dropzone widget, so there is some potential for creating a plugin to 
enable dragging tiddlers for re-ordering... but this has not yet been 
implemented... and may need some additional core changes to make it work 
right.

d) ForEachTiddler - I've written little utilities like a macro that deletes 
> all tiddlers with a given tag.
>

One of the most powerful new features of TW5 is the <$list> widget.  It 
selects a set of tiddlers by using a "filter" (another powerful features of 
TW5), and then loops over that set of tiddlers, rendering specified content 
for each tiddler that is selected.  For your indicated use-case, you could 
write something like:
<$list filter="[tag[SomeTag]]">
   <$action-deletetiddler {{!!title}}/>


However, since deleting a set of tiddlers is a fairly common activity, the 
<$action-deletetiddler> widget also directly supports filtering for 
deleting multiple tiddlers, so you could write this in just one line:
<$action-deletetiddler $filter="[tag[sometag]]"/>

To make sure that the above is only invoked when you explicitly choose to 
delete tiddlers, you can wrap the above line inside a <$button> widget, 
like this:
<$button>
<$action-deletetiddler $filter="[tag[sometag]]"/>
Delete tiddlers

This creates a pushbutton labelled "Delete tiddlers".  Push

[tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[David Bakin]

I am a happy user of TWC.  Every few months I check this group to see how 
TW5 is coming along and I was very happy to read this message - until I 
released it was 3 months old.  Has this moratorium paid off?  Is there 
documentation and a plugin list for new users?  I hope so!

Here's my state:  I have several useful TWC wikis in progress ... some have 
several hundred tiddlers.  Even though there's very little theming done I 
have only read that a) TWC tiddlers can't be directly imported to TW5 and 
b) there's a tool "in progress" that will convert "most" tiddlers (but no 
specification of what gets converted and what doesn't).

I'm willing to learn the new markup language, and in fact, I'm willing to 
start new wikis from scratch (new topics) but my blocking issue is that I 
do rely on several TWC plugins and I have no idea what the equivalent is in 
TW5 or if it is available.  So in the interests of progressing, I hope 
you'll be able to answer for me what the equivalent of the following is in 
TW5 or what I should be doing instead:

a) The single most important plugin I use is SharedTiddlers, which lets me 
have a "base" wiki which contains nearly all the plugins I use (except 
SharedTiddlers itself...) and then a bunch of topic wikis that refer to the 
"base" for all enhancments ... plugins, configuration, etc.  That way 
when I introduce a new plugin to my repertoire ... or a plugin is upgraded 
... I do it in one place - base.html - and it is available in all my wikis 
instantly and automatically.  Does SharedTiddlers exist in TW5 or is there 
another way to get this vital functionality?

b) TextArea - to adjust the size of the area of the new tiddler I'm 
creating.

c) RearrangeTiddlers - I just like to organize several tiddlers I'm reading 
at the moment.

d) ForEachTiddler - I've written little utilities like a macro that deletes 
all tiddlers with a given tag.

e) DisableWikiLinks - sometimes it's more convenient than using individual 
markup

f) MathJax - I can move up to KaTeX ... I assume the markup to signal TeX 
is similar, so this probably isn't a problem.

Really, the lack of documentation and the different plugin support are the 
major major blockers for me.  I just isn't practical to search google 
groups to find answers to questions like "what's available" - things are so 
scattered.

I will very much appreciate your help in getting me going on TW5 by letting 
me know what the right way to handle each of the needs that the above TWC 
plugins do for me.  And also, am I right that I might as well NOT convert 
my old TWC wikis?  Or does the tool to do the conversion actual exist and 
work?

Thanks very much!  -- David Bakin

On Friday, November 21, 2014 at 4:27:26 AM UTC-8, Jeremy Ruston wrote:

> Several recent events have conspired to make me suggest that until the end 
> of the year I operate a moratorium on new features for TiddlyWiki5. 
> Instead, I propose to focus on documentation, and presentation of the 
> available editions and plugins. I will of course continue to fix bugs as 
> they are reported wherever it's possible to do so.
>
>  

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[tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Alfonso Arciniega]

Hi Eric,

I left you a message in TiddlyTools regarding the book project. Not sure if 
you've seen it.

Apologies to the group for this unrelated message, just I don't have Eric's 
email to communicate to him directly.

Alfonso Arciniega

On Saturday, February 14, 2015 at 11:42:29 PM UTC-7, Eric Shulman wrote:
>
> On Saturday, February 14, 2015 at 9:20:58 PM UTC-8, Hiru Yoru wrote:
>>
>>
>> If you document TW5 thoroughly -- not just the dense, complex 
>> documentation targeted towards seasoned programmers, but the more easily 
>> understood documentation that could be read by newbies -- I think TW5 will 
>> grow on its own.
>>
>
> Yes!  My "InsideTiddlyWiki" book project is intended to address exactly 
> this problem...
>
> read more here:
> "Inside TiddlyWiki: The Missing Manual"
>
> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/inside-tiddlywiki-the-missing-manual/x/8816263
>
> Note: although the IndieGoGo campaign has ended, the fundraising is 
> ongoing,
> and campaign "Perks" as described on the IndieGoGo page will still be given
> to all new contributors!  See below for the link to my direct PayPal 
> contribution form.
>
> enjoy,
> -e
> Eric Shulman
> TiddlyTools / ELS Design Studios
>
> YOUR DONATIONS ARE VERY IMPORTANT!
> HELP ME TO HELP YOU - MAKE A CONTRIBUTION TO MY "TIP JAR"...
>http://TiddlyTools.github.com/fundraising.html#MakeADonation
>
> Professional TiddlyWiki Consulting Services...
> Analysis, Design, and Custom Solutions:
>http://www.TiddlyTools.com/#Contact
>

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[tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Eric Shulman]

On Saturday, February 14, 2015 at 11:22:54 PM UTC-8, Hiru Yoru wrote:
>
> That's a great idea! Thank you for the information! My idea was more for 
> an online wiki, though, so that everyone can add to it and help to expand 
> it through group effort. I know I didn't say that specifically, but that's 
> what I had in mind when I wrote that. That said, I'm sure the two aren't 
> mutually exclusive. Having a book in hand that guides you through something 
> step-by-step is very different than having a bunch of separate articles on 
> a wiki. They each have a very useful place in the learning process.
>

There have been numerous efforts to create community-generated, open wikis 
for documenting TiddlyWiki... unfortunately, most have met with only 
limited success.

Although community-driven wiki's are a good idea for some kinds of 
information, in practice, they have not been all that successful at 
producing clear, consistent, well-organized documentation for TiddlyWiki. 
 There have been some *individually-authored/curated* TiddlyWiki 
documentation efforts have been well received and are very helpful.   
However, most of the "open contributor" sites tend to be a bit of a mess 
and eventually lose steam and become static and stale, with outdated or 
incorrect information (due to core changes).  There is also a tendency for 
people to document their solutions to "hard stuff"... so the articles tend 
towards "dense, complex documentation targeted towards seasoned 
programmers", rather than "the more easily understood documentation that 
could be read by newbies"

-e




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[tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Hiru Yoru]

That's a great idea! Thank you for the information! My idea was more for an 
online wiki, though, so that everyone can add to it and help to expand it 
through group effort. I know I didn't say that specifically, but that's 
what I had in mind when I wrote that. That said, I'm sure the two aren't 
mutually exclusive. Having a book in hand that guides you through something 
step-by-step is very different than having a bunch of separate articles on 
a wiki. They each have a very useful place in the learning process.

I look forward to seeing your book when it's finished! ^-^ I also still 
hope a wiki comes about online somewhere. Perhaps once I learn more about 
TW5, I'd have something to contribute. ^-^

~Hiru

On Sunday, February 15, 2015 at 1:42:29 AM UTC-5, Eric Shulman wrote:
>
> On Saturday, February 14, 2015 at 9:20:58 PM UTC-8, Hiru Yoru wrote:
>>
>>
>> If you document TW5 thoroughly -- not just the dense, complex 
>> documentation targeted towards seasoned programmers, but the more easily 
>> understood documentation that could be read by newbies -- I think TW5 will 
>> grow on its own.
>>
>
> Yes!  My "InsideTiddlyWiki" book project is intended to address exactly 
> this problem...
>
> read more here:
> "Inside TiddlyWiki: The Missing Manual"
>
> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/inside-tiddlywiki-the-missing-manual/x/8816263
>
> Note: although the IndieGoGo campaign has ended, the fundraising is 
> ongoing,
> and campaign "Perks" as described on the IndieGoGo page will still be given
> to all new contributors!  See below for the link to my direct PayPal 
> contribution form.
>
> enjoy,
> -e
> Eric Shulman
> TiddlyTools / ELS Design Studios
>
> YOUR DONATIONS ARE VERY IMPORTANT!
> HELP ME TO HELP YOU - MAKE A CONTRIBUTION TO MY "TIP JAR"...
>http://TiddlyTools.github.com/fundraising.html#MakeADonation
>
> Professional TiddlyWiki Consulting Services...
> Analysis, Design, and Custom Solutions:
>http://www.TiddlyTools.com/#Contact
>

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[tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Eric Shulman]

On Saturday, February 14, 2015 at 9:20:58 PM UTC-8, Hiru Yoru wrote:
>
>
> If you document TW5 thoroughly -- not just the dense, complex 
> documentation targeted towards seasoned programmers, but the more easily 
> understood documentation that could be read by newbies -- I think TW5 will 
> grow on its own.
>

Yes!  My "InsideTiddlyWiki" book project is intended to address exactly 
this problem...

read more here:
"Inside TiddlyWiki: The Missing Manual"
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/inside-tiddlywiki-the-missing-manual/x/8816263

Note: although the IndieGoGo campaign has ended, the fundraising is ongoing,
and campaign "Perks" as described on the IndieGoGo page will still be given
to all new contributors!  See below for the link to my direct PayPal 
contribution form.

enjoy,
-e
Eric Shulman
TiddlyTools / ELS Design Studios

YOUR DONATIONS ARE VERY IMPORTANT!
HELP ME TO HELP YOU - MAKE A CONTRIBUTION TO MY "TIP JAR"...
   http://TiddlyTools.github.com/fundraising.html#MakeADonation

Professional TiddlyWiki Consulting Services...
Analysis, Design, and Custom Solutions:
   http://www.TiddlyTools.com/#Contact

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[tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Hiru Yoru]

Speaking as someone new to TW5, I think documentation is a must. I had a 
hard time starting to use TWC way back in the day because of the 
unavailability of documentation. It was a struggle and I stopped bothering 
with it on several occasions because of that very problem. It was only 
after more documentation became available that I could theme it, add my own 
simple extensions, and really start to get it to work for me.

If you document TW5 thoroughly -- not just the dense, complex documentation 
targeted towards seasoned programmers, but the more easily understood 
documentation that could be read by newbies -- I think TW5 will grow on its 
own. Allowing other people to add on to it will guarantee that the 
most-wanted features are added as users will add them on themselves. This 
will allow the community and features to grow on their own.

I'd say the best features to add to the core are the ones TW5 can't 
function without. Give a solid foundation upon which others can build. 
After that, once we have documentation, just wait, and I think you'll see 
the extensions growing in number to suit any more specific needs.

That's just my humble personal opinion and hope.

On another note, I wanted to say thank you for all the work you've done. 
TiddlyWiki is something I've used for very many years and it's done a lot 
for me -- both in terms of using it and learning from it by playing around 
with themes/extensions. I'm really glad I had it because it made a 
difference for me, so thank you! ^-^


On Friday, November 21, 2014 at 7:27:26 AM UTC-5, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> Several recent events have conspired to make me suggest that until the end 
> of the year I operate a moratorium on new features for TiddlyWiki5. 
> Instead, I propose to focus on documentation, and presentation of the 
> available editions and plugins. I will of course continue to fix bugs as 
> they are reported wherever it's possible to do so.
>
> (In the next few weeks I will also have to pay some attention to TiddlyFox 
> and TiddlyDesktop. In the case of TiddlyFox, imminent Firefox architectural 
> changes will require the architecture of the add-on to be significantly 
> updated).
>
> One trigger is obviously the recent thread discussing obstacles to 
> TiddlyWiki's success:
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/_rScP9Lscdg/discussion
>
> A more subtle trigger is my recent experience with implementing the 
> "export" features for 5.1.5.
>
> I started work on those features on around 12 days ago, on November 9th. I 
> committed the first working code on November 10th. Ever since then I've 
> been tied up with fixing up the loose ends: making the strings 
> translatable, making improvements in response to feedback. Most recently, 
> I've been implementing nested popups so that the export button will 
> function when it is invoked through the "more" menu. The initial 
> implementation was quick and fun, but a lot of the work since has been a 
> slow slog.
>
> In my experience that is all pretty typical for a major new UI feature: 2 
> days to get the basic implementation followed by 5 to 10 days of working 
> through the edge cases and cleaning up. Of course, part of the reason it 
> takes so long is that alongside I'm still working on bug fixes, 
> documentation and the occasional new feature such as the tabbed table of 
> contents.
>
> The third trigger starts with the fact that I've been busy over the last 
> few days, and unable to participate in the mailing list threads as much as 
> I'd like. I've still been scanning the messages, and I'm drawn to the 
> conclusion that for many people here, some of the quite basic features of 
> TiddlyWiki are, thanks to the lack of documentation, indistinguishable from 
> voodoo. For example, Danielo's terrific recent post on the "variable" 
> attribute of the list widget was pretty interesting: another basic feature 
> that hasn't been well enough communicated.
>
> So, now that I stand back, I'm not at all sure that the work on the 
> "export" features was the best use of my time. It's an undeniably important 
> feature in terms of rounding out the interoperability of TiddlyWiki, but it 
> makes little or no difference to new users.
>
> My worry is that this will keep happening. There's plenty of voices here 
> calling for new features, and I'm naturally attracted to the intricate 
> problem solving required to implement them. I've a deep motivation to keep 
> smashing through the roadmap of planned features.
>
> Hence my proposal for a new feature moratorium. It's a simple way to 
> ensure that my attention stays focussed on the really important things for 
> the next few weeks.
>
> Some quick googling suggests that new feature moratoriums are not uncommon:
>
> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=new+features+moratorium
>
> I'd be interested in any thoughts on this, and of course we'll discuss it 
> further at the hangout next Tuesday,
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Jere

Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Tobias Beer]

>
> My point is that TW-5 should be informed (or introduced) as (1) 
> collaborative works where many can edit simultaneously
>
 
While that would be very desireable, TiddlyWiki is not that.

Best wishes, Tobias.

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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Handoko Suwono]

> A big topic is clearly how we improve the contribution process for the 
documentation. I have a couple of thoughts:

* We could initiate a TW5 community space on tiddlyspace along the lines of 
tiddlywiki.org - it's a proven way to work. It would be good to try out 
TW5's support for TiddlySpace in a multiuser setting (since it's not been 
done before I think there may be some wrinkles to be ironed out).
>>

I think we had been talking about lacking of proper documentation and 
perhaps "good" training materials. It's good that you point out to host at 
tiddlyspace in a multi-user setting.

My point is that TW-5 should be informed (or introduced) as (1) 
collaborative works where many can edit simultaneously, wiki-like and (2) 
as an open source product, it should gain as many users as it can. Not only 
from the community within but also the public users outthere who would only 
use TW as a product.


Handoko -



On Sunday, November 23, 2014 8:21:24 PM UTC+7, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> Thanks everyone for their contributions. There are a bunch of good 
> suggestions in the thread which I'll try to pick up in the hangout on 
> Tuesday.
>
> A big topic is clearly how we improve the contribution process for the 
> documentation. I have a couple of thoughts:
>
> * We could initiate a TW5 community space on tiddlyspace along the lines 
> of tiddlywiki.org - it's a proven way to work. It would be good to try 
> out TW5's support for TiddlySpace in a multiuser setting (since it's not 
> been done before I think there may be some wrinkles to be ironed out).
> * We should support documentation contributions by people taking a copy of 
> tiddlywiki.com onto tiddlyspot and making their edits there. I could 
> easily build a batch file that pulls down their changes and applies them to 
> the repo, so that I can convert their changes to a pull request (I don't 
> think there's any avoiding needing a moderation step for tiddlywiki.com)
> * An alternative workflow for accepting those contributions would be to 
> support visual diffing in the import manager
>
> I've also got a couple of clarifications.
>
> > Perhaps there's a way to display a sticky above the github issues.
>
> We don't want to discourage people from suggesting and discussing new 
> features, but lets see how it goes and I can add a banner to the "new 
> issue" page if needed.
>
> > 4. You may think about a two level plugin list: the top part would list 
> the plugins that are officially sanctioned and compatible with the latest 
> release. The bottom part could be a growing list of webpages where 
> individuals have stored there plugins and goodies they have created for TW 
> but that may or may not continue to be compatible.
>
> That's pretty much what we've got:
>
> * Plugins listed in http://tiddlywiki.com/#Plugins are the officially 
> maintained and distributed plugins. They will be automatically upgraded 
> when using http://tiddlywiki.com/upgrade.html
> * Community plugins are listed in http://tiddlywiki.com/#Resources
>
> Perhaps we should maintain a catalogue of community plugins that is 
> separate from the general resources list.
>
> > Will 1.1.5 and the export feature make release before the moratorium 
> begins?
>
> Yes, the moratorium would start after 5.1.5's release.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 6:43 PM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <
> tiddl...@googlegroups.com > wrote:
>
>> Whenever you have an open web page, you end up with spammers trying to 
>> create link drops.
>>
>> Probably a real wiki (with authentication) or even just a special thread 
>> on this forum would be better. I believe the better wiki systems track 
>> history, so changes can be rolled back when something useful has been 
>> overwritten.
>>
>> I feel the github process discourages documentation. The problem is that 
>> it's the same system of review for documentation as for code. Which means 
>> that you may have to wait a week or so before changes get applied, Sure, 
>> CODE needs to be thoroughly vetted so that TW doesn't break. But, unlike 
>> code, poor documentation is usually better than NO documentation, and it 
>> can be peer-reviewed and tweaked as time goes along. It's an odd quirk of 
>> human psychology that people tend to like to correct things that are 
>> already in place rather than creating new content in the first place. So 
>> getting something in place quickly (even if not 100% perfect) is more 
>> important than getting it publisher-ready on the first draft.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> On Friday, November 21, 2014 6:37:16 PM UTC-8, Jed Carty wrote:
>>>
>>> I think that we could try making a public tiddlywiki on tiddlyspot and 
>>> make a list of topics people want documentation for the most, then collect 
>>> explanations and examples from people and hopefully get someone who is good 
>>> at technical writing or design to collect everything into a nice tiddler we 
>>> can submit for inclusion on the main page. 
>>>
>>> Is there intere

Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[PMario]

On Monday, November 24, 2014 12:52:09 AM UTC+1, Tobias Beer wrote:
>
>
> On a need basis perhaps? I.e if a part can be reused, then it is 
>> tiddlified to avoid redundance in the system. Not sure how to deal with if 
>> there's later a wish to change it in one context but not the other. Or 
>> maybe clone+change is obvoius solution?
>>
>
> Yes, but that introduces a few questions, like...
>
>- What name should that new tiddler get?
>
> Finding proper name for tiddlers is always important and if you want to 
reference sections you need proper tiddler names *and* proper section 
names, otherwise your links will break in the future. So it doubles the 
complexity. 

>
>- Does it need tagging?
>
> Some tiddlers may need tagging, some may not. Similar problem to creating 
a TOC. The core can handle it already.
 

>
>- Any fields?
>
> If needed. eg: caption

>
>- Where do I need to link it?
>
> In the main "overview" tiddler 

>
>- How do I put it into context?
>
> An eg: "executive summary tiddler" can have a list with 2-3 lines of info, 
to get an overview. 
A "show it all" tiddler can transclude the whole content. Those concepts 
are part of tiddlywiki.com already, so let us use it.

>
>- Does it need ordering in some list?
>
> may be.

The core will get drag and drop UI for list sorting in the future. Do you 
want to provide the same functions for sections too, without modifying the 
tiddler text? To accomplish this, you'll need new tiddlers to store the 
configuration. So what do you win, except making the mechanisms more 
complicated?

Whereas I could simply do some section magic 
> , 
> reference that bit form anywhere, have it neatly displayed in a clickable 
> toc... and all those things that make not really big tiddlers not 
> nessessarily smaller than they have to be.
>

Why do you want to use magic, if you can use the core functions?
 

> Let me put it slightly differently: there is a too small... in the sense 
> of: "smaller than is perhaps good for ya"... omg, all the uncertainty that 
> comes with the quantum-approach to anything. ^^
>

At the beginning, I also wanted to have sections and slices back. ... but 
using tiddlers for everything creates the power that TW has at the moment. 
... Implementing sections with the same functionality as tiddlers, would 
create more complexity in the core sw and is redundant, because tiddlers 
can do it already. 

If you search the group for *pmario *and *section *you may find those posts 
and Jeremys responses. 

*IMO tiddlers should be the smallest chunks of text we deal with. ... But 
we need to improve the UI to compose and manipulate them. ...*

So if you want to have new plugins to make proper documentation possible, 
we need those plugins to fit to the global core concept. ... If we really 
need new core features to improve the documentation, Jeremy is needed to 
implement them. ... But that's a problem, if we want the moratorium. 

There are a lot of possibilities to be explored with TW. Falling back to 
TWclassic patterns will just limit us, even if it seems to be faster in the 
short run. ... So let us step forward and not backward.

just my 2 cents
mario

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[tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Jed Carty]

Erwin,

I was hoping to restart the dedicated documentation mailing list trying out 
the ideas discussed here 
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/F0dnmWrOuxg 

The other mailing list is 
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/tiddlywikidocs and I put up a post 
briefly discussing how I hope it will work. The sort of guidelines you are 
working on look like they would definitely help a lot and give a good 
structure for people who would like to contribute. I hope to have changes 
discussed on the other mailing list and demonstrated on the cloned wikis 
like the example I made here 
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywikidocs/X0GeGiiPMAw 
That way we could have a relatively small group of people who have to 
actually use github while everyone who can comment on the mailing list 
could contribute ideas or content.

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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Erwan]

On 23/11/14 17:17, Jeremy Ruston wrote:

Hi Erwan

> I tried to develop these ideas and to imagine how things could work 
globally in a more detailed proposition, in case that helps: 
http://tw-doc-ideas.tiddlyspot.com


Terrific stuff, thank you Erwan. You've done a great job of 
summarising the situation and the ideas that are floating around.


Perhaps some of your material could be structured as a pull request to 
start fleshing out the contribution guidelines in tw5.com 
?


Thank you Jeremy,

I'd be happy to do it, but I don't know exactly how: I'm relatively 
familiar with git but not so much with TW node.js version, and the 
tw5.com edition looks like a complex case of node.js (with tiddlers in 
different subdirectories). I was able to open it locally under node.js 
but not to save my changes, is there something special to do?


About the content: currently it is written like a proposition (with some 
"I think", "in my opinion", ...), should I leave it like that or rewrite 
it another way? And which parts are interesting/useful?


Regards
Erwan





I realised earlier when I made the following changes that the "house 
style" of tiddlywiki.com  is not explicitly 
stated, providing another hurdle for contributors:


https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/commit/4134392841862830fd4c5cf3b3d6512b30bc885f

Best wishes

Jeremy

https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/commit/4134392841862830fd4c5cf3b3d6512b30bc885f




On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 4:33 PM, Erwan > wrote:



Hi everyone,

as this is my first post here, I'd like to start by thanking
Jeremy and everyone who contributes to TW, from core development
to helping make the community so engaging. I've discovered TW only
a few months ago (I was lucky to arrive just for the birth of the
official TW5), and I've been hooked by both the great tool that TW
is and the good atmosphere of knowledge sharing in the community.

I agree with Jeremy and everybody in this thread that improving
the documentation process (including the great potential for
community knowledge) becomes more and more important, especially
in the perspective of attracting newcomers.

In general my thoughts on the topic are similar to what most
people have said here. I would like to suggest maybe a couple of
points that I think deserve some attention. Indeed, people with
technical skills tend to focus on the technical side of a problem,
and obviously there are highly skilled people here ;) While this
is important, there can be other angles to look at:

* For example, about the fact that some people are not comfortable
using github, a very simple way to overcome the problem would be
to have a few volunteers who know git who would receive the
contributions and make the pull request for them. I guess
something similar could be done for other things, like
translating, so that someone who can translate doesn't need to
have any technical skills.

* Imho, one of the problems with contributing to the official
documentation is that there is no clear guidelines about the
structure or the type of content. I think that it would be very
helpful to think about a detailed plan and identify the missing
parts: this way it would be easier for people who want to
contribute to know what to do, and eventually for newcomers to
find their way in the documentation.

I tried to develop these ideas and to imagine how things could
work globally in a more detailed proposition, in case that helps:
http://tw-doc-ideas.tiddlyspot.com

Regards,
Erwan




On 23/11/14 13:21, Jeremy Ruston wrote:

Thanks everyone for their contributions. There are a bunch of
good suggestions in the thread which I'll try to pick up in the
hangout on Tuesday.

A big topic is clearly how we improve the contribution process
for the documentation. I have a couple of thoughts:

* We could initiate a TW5 community space on tiddlyspace along
the lines of tiddlywiki.org  - it's a
proven way to work. It would be good to try out TW5's support for
TiddlySpace in a multiuser setting (since it's not been done
before I think there may be some wrinkles to be ironed out).
* We should support documentation contributions by people taking
a copy of tiddlywiki.com  onto tiddlyspot
and making their edits there. I could easily build a batch file
that pulls down their changes and applies them to the repo, so
that I can convert their changes to a pull request (I don't think
there's any avoiding needing a moderation step for tiddlywiki.com
)
* An alternative workflow for accepting those contributions would
be to support visual diffing in the import manager

I've also got a couple of clarifications.

> 

Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Tobias Beer]

Hi Mat,
 

> On a need basis perhaps? I.e if a part can be reused, then it is 
> tiddlified to avoid redundance in the system. Not sure how to deal with if 
> there's later a wish to change it in one context but not the other. Or 
> maybe clone+change is obvoius solution?
>

Yes, but that introduces a few questions, like...

   - What name should that new tiddler get?
   - Does it need tagging?
   - Any fields?
   - Where do I need to link it?
   - How do I put it into context?
   - Does it need ordering in some list?
   - etc...

Whereas I could simply do some section magic 
, reference 
that bit form anywhere, have it neatly displayed in a clickable toc... and 
all those things that make not really big tiddlers not nessessarily smaller 
than they have to be.

Let me put it slightly differently: there is a too small... in the sense 
of: "smaller than is perhaps good for ya"... omg, all the uncertainty that 
comes with the quantum-approach to anything. ^^

Best wishes, Tobias.

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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Mat]

On Sunday, November 23, 2014 9:40:32 PM UTC+1, Richard Smith wrote:
>
> With regards to the documentation specifically then, how should we think 
> about, for example "Introduction to Filters 
> " - 
> should it be split into ~13 different tiddlers and those tiddlers then 
> re-combined?
>

On a need basis perhaps? I.e if a part can be reused, then it is tiddlified 
to avoid redundance in the system. Not sure how to deal with if there's 
later a wish to change it in one context but not the other. Or maybe 
clone+change is obvoius solution?

<:-)

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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Richard Smith]

Hi all,

With regards the "Philosophy of Tiddlers 
".

I read some of Tobias' and Jeremy's recent conversations about sections in 
Tiddlers. Although I don't understand some of the complexities, I do think 
the goal of 'smallest semantically meaningful' is a good one. It's also 
true that splitting a long tiddler into multiple smaller ones when those 
smaller ones will never appear anywhere else adds little value for the 
necessary work.

With regards to the documentation specifically then, how should we think 
about, for example "Introduction to Filters 
" - should 
it be split into ~13 different tiddlers and those tiddlers then re-combined?

Regards,
Richard

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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Mat]

On Sunday, November 23, 2014 5:33:40 PM UTC+1, Erwan wrote:
>
> http://tw-doc-ideas.tiddlyspot.com
>

Hear, hear! I particularly like that you brought up the need for different 
types of documentation, and probably for different levels of expertise. 
BTW, this will, to say the least, be one tough test of manhood to see to 
what extent we can use the philosophy of tiddlers 
!

<:-)

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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Erwan

> I tried to develop these ideas and to imagine how things could work
globally in a more detailed proposition, in case that helps:
http://tw-doc-ideas.tiddlyspot.com

Terrific stuff, thank you Erwan. You've done a great job of summarising the
situation and the ideas that are floating around.

Perhaps some of your material could be structured as a pull request to
start fleshing out the contribution guidelines in tw5.com?

I realised earlier when I made the following changes that the "house style"
of tiddlywiki.com is not explicitly stated, providing another hurdle for
contributors:

https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/commit/4134392841862830fd4c5cf3b3d6512b30bc885f

Best wishes

Jeremy

https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/commit/4134392841862830fd4c5cf3b3d6512b30bc885f




On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 4:33 PM, Erwan  wrote:

>
> Hi everyone,
>
> as this is my first post here, I'd like to start by thanking Jeremy and
> everyone who contributes to TW, from core development to helping make the
> community so engaging. I've discovered TW only a few months ago (I was
> lucky to arrive just for the birth of the official TW5), and I've been
> hooked by both the great tool that TW is and the good atmosphere of
> knowledge sharing in the community.
>
> I agree with Jeremy and everybody in this thread that improving the
> documentation process (including the great potential for community
> knowledge) becomes more and more important, especially in the perspective
> of attracting newcomers.
>
> In general my thoughts on the topic are similar to what most people have
> said here. I would like to suggest maybe a couple of points that I think
> deserve some attention. Indeed, people with technical skills tend to focus
> on the technical side of a problem, and obviously there are highly skilled
> people here ;) While this is important, there can be other angles to look
> at:
>
> * For example, about the fact that some people are not comfortable using
> github, a very simple way to overcome the problem would be to have a few
> volunteers who know git who would receive the contributions and make the
> pull request for them. I guess something similar could be done for other
> things, like translating, so that someone who can translate doesn't need to
> have any technical skills.
>
> * Imho, one of the problems with contributing to the official
> documentation is that there is no clear guidelines about the structure or
> the type of content. I think that it would be very helpful to think about a
> detailed plan and identify the missing parts: this way it would be easier
> for people who want to contribute to know what to do, and eventually for
> newcomers to find their way in the documentation.
>
> I tried to develop these ideas and to imagine how things could work
> globally in a more detailed proposition, in case that helps:
> http://tw-doc-ideas.tiddlyspot.com
>
> Regards,
> Erwan
>
>
>
>
> On 23/11/14 13:21, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> Thanks everyone for their contributions. There are a bunch of good
> suggestions in the thread which I'll try to pick up in the hangout on
> Tuesday.
>
>  A big topic is clearly how we improve the contribution process for the
> documentation. I have a couple of thoughts:
>
>  * We could initiate a TW5 community space on tiddlyspace along the lines
> of tiddlywiki.org - it's a proven way to work. It would be good to try
> out TW5's support for TiddlySpace in a multiuser setting (since it's not
> been done before I think there may be some wrinkles to be ironed out).
> * We should support documentation contributions by people taking a copy of
> tiddlywiki.com onto tiddlyspot and making their edits there. I could
> easily build a batch file that pulls down their changes and applies them to
> the repo, so that I can convert their changes to a pull request (I don't
> think there's any avoiding needing a moderation step for tiddlywiki.com)
> * An alternative workflow for accepting those contributions would be to
> support visual diffing in the import manager
>
>  I've also got a couple of clarifications.
>
>  > Perhaps there's a way to display a sticky above the github issues.
>
>  We don't want to discourage people from suggesting and discussing new
> features, but lets see how it goes and I can add a banner to the "new
> issue" page if needed.
>
>  > 4. You may think about a two level plugin list: the top part would
> list the plugins that are officially sanctioned and compatible with the
> latest release. The bottom part could be a growing list of webpages where
> individuals have stored there plugins and goodies they have created for TW
> but that may or may not continue to be compatible.
>
>  That's pretty much what we've got:
>
>  * Plugins listed in http://tiddlywiki.com/#Plugins are the officially
> maintained and distributed plugins. They will be automatically upgraded
> when using http://tiddlywiki.com/upgrade.html
> * Community plugins are listed in http://tiddlywiki.com/#Res

Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Erwan]

Hi everyone,

as this is my first post here, I'd like to start by thanking Jeremy and 
everyone who contributes to TW, from core development to helping make 
the community so engaging. I've discovered TW only a few months ago (I 
was lucky to arrive just for the birth of the official TW5), and I've 
been hooked by both the great tool that TW is and the good atmosphere of 
knowledge sharing in the community.


I agree with Jeremy and everybody in this thread that improving the 
documentation process (including the great potential for community 
knowledge) becomes more and more important, especially in the 
perspective of attracting newcomers.


In general my thoughts on the topic are similar to what most people have 
said here. I would like to suggest maybe a couple of points that I think 
deserve some attention. Indeed, people with technical skills tend to 
focus on the technical side of a problem, and obviously there are highly 
skilled people here ;) While this is important, there can be other 
angles to look at:


* For example, about the fact that some people are not comfortable using 
github, a very simple way to overcome the problem would be to have a few 
volunteers who know git who would receive the contributions and make the 
pull request for them. I guess something similar could be done for other 
things, like translating, so that someone who can translate doesn't need 
to have any technical skills.


* Imho, one of the problems with contributing to the official 
documentation is that there is no clear guidelines about the structure 
or the type of content. I think that it would be very helpful to think 
about a detailed plan and identify the missing parts: this way it would 
be easier for people who want to contribute to know what to do, and 
eventually for newcomers to find their way in the documentation.


I tried to develop these ideas and to imagine how things could work 
globally in a more detailed proposition, in case that helps: 
http://tw-doc-ideas.tiddlyspot.com


Regards,
Erwan



On 23/11/14 13:21, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
Thanks everyone for their contributions. There are a bunch of good 
suggestions in the thread which I'll try to pick up in the hangout on 
Tuesday.


A big topic is clearly how we improve the contribution process for the 
documentation. I have a couple of thoughts:


* We could initiate a TW5 community space on tiddlyspace along the 
lines of tiddlywiki.org  - it's a proven way to 
work. It would be good to try out TW5's support for TiddlySpace in a 
multiuser setting (since it's not been done before I think there may 
be some wrinkles to be ironed out).
* We should support documentation contributions by people taking a 
copy of tiddlywiki.com  onto tiddlyspot and 
making their edits there. I could easily build a batch file that pulls 
down their changes and applies them to the repo, so that I can convert 
their changes to a pull request (I don't think there's any avoiding 
needing a moderation step for tiddlywiki.com )
* An alternative workflow for accepting those contributions would be 
to support visual diffing in the import manager


I've also got a couple of clarifications.

> Perhaps there's a way to display a sticky above the github issues.

We don't want to discourage people from suggesting and discussing new 
features, but lets see how it goes and I can add a banner to the "new 
issue" page if needed.


> 4. You may think about a two level plugin list: the top part would 
list the plugins that are officially sanctioned and compatible with 
the latest release. The bottom part could be a growing list of 
webpages where individuals have stored there plugins and goodies they 
have created for TW but that may or may not continue to be compatible.


That's pretty much what we've got:

* Plugins listed in http://tiddlywiki.com/#Plugins are the officially 
maintained and distributed plugins. They will be automatically 
upgraded when using http://tiddlywiki.com/upgrade.html

* Community plugins are listed in http://tiddlywiki.com/#Resources

Perhaps we should maintain a catalogue of community plugins that is 
separate from the general resources list.


> Will 1.1.5 and the export feature make release before the moratorium 
begins?


Yes, the moratorium would start after 5.1.5's release.

Best wishes

Jeremy


On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 6:43 PM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki 
mailto:tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com>> wrote:


Whenever you have an open web page, you end up with spammers
trying to create link drops.

Probably a real wiki (with authentication) or even just a special
thread on this forum would be better. I believe the better wiki
systems track history, so changes can be rolled back when
something useful has been overwritten.

I feel the github process discourages documentation. The problem
is that it's the same system of review for documentation as for
code. Which m

Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[David Gifford]

Yay! Thanks, Jeremy

On Sunday, November 23, 2014 7:31:33 AM UTC-6, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> Hi Dave
>
> > And 5.1.5 will be released this week, right Jeremy?
>
> Yes, there's nothing else big planned, but it'll still be a couple of days 
> before the release. In particular there's quite a few contributions 
> awaiting merging on github.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy.
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 1:29 PM, David Gifford  > wrote:
>
>> And 5.1.5 will be released this week, right Jeremy? I am really eager to 
>> have this update. It's got some great stuff in it. Also I am eager because 
>> I have used some of the define newhere bits you  emailed me, but they don't 
>> seem to work in 5.1.4, only in my copy of the prerelease of 5.1.5. This new 
>> version HAS been in the works for a while, so don't keep us in suspense 
>> forever! :-)
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 7:21 AM, Jeremy Ruston > > wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks everyone for their contributions. There are a bunch of good 
>>> suggestions in the thread which I'll try to pick up in the hangout on 
>>> Tuesday.
>>>
>>> A big topic is clearly how we improve the contribution process for the 
>>> documentation. I have a couple of thoughts:
>>>
>>> * We could initiate a TW5 community space on tiddlyspace along the lines 
>>> of tiddlywiki.org - it's a proven way to work. It would be good to try 
>>> out TW5's support for TiddlySpace in a multiuser setting (since it's not 
>>> been done before I think there may be some wrinkles to be ironed out).
>>> * We should support documentation contributions by people taking a copy 
>>> of tiddlywiki.com onto tiddlyspot and making their edits there. I could 
>>> easily build a batch file that pulls down their changes and applies them to 
>>> the repo, so that I can convert their changes to a pull request (I don't 
>>> think there's any avoiding needing a moderation step for tiddlywiki.com)
>>> * An alternative workflow for accepting those contributions would be to 
>>> support visual diffing in the import manager
>>>
>>> I've also got a couple of clarifications.
>>>
>>> > Perhaps there's a way to display a sticky above the github issues.
>>>
>>> We don't want to discourage people from suggesting and discussing new 
>>> features, but lets see how it goes and I can add a banner to the "new 
>>> issue" page if needed.
>>>
>>> > 4. You may think about a two level plugin list: the top part would 
>>> list the plugins that are officially sanctioned and compatible with the 
>>> latest release. The bottom part could be a growing list of webpages where 
>>> individuals have stored there plugins and goodies they have created for TW 
>>> but that may or may not continue to be compatible.
>>>
>>> That's pretty much what we've got:
>>>
>>> * Plugins listed in http://tiddlywiki.com/#Plugins are the officially 
>>> maintained and distributed plugins. They will be automatically upgraded 
>>> when using http://tiddlywiki.com/upgrade.html
>>> * Community plugins are listed in http://tiddlywiki.com/#Resources
>>>
>>> Perhaps we should maintain a catalogue of community plugins that is 
>>> separate from the general resources list.
>>>
>>> > Will 1.1.5 and the export feature make release before the moratorium 
>>> begins?
>>>
>>> Yes, the moratorium would start after 5.1.5's release.
>>>
>>> Best wishes
>>>
>>> Jeremy
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 6:43 PM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <
>>> tiddl...@googlegroups.com > wrote:
>>>
 Whenever you have an open web page, you end up with spammers trying to 
 create link drops.

 Probably a real wiki (with authentication) or even just a special 
 thread on this forum would be better. I believe the better wiki systems 
 track history, so changes can be rolled back when something useful has 
 been 
 overwritten.

 I feel the github process discourages documentation. The problem is 
 that it's the same system of review for documentation as for code. Which 
 means that you may have to wait a week or so before changes get applied, 
 Sure, CODE needs to be thoroughly vetted so that TW doesn't break. But, 
 unlike code, poor documentation is usually better than NO documentation, 
 and it can be peer-reviewed and tweaked as time goes along. It's an odd 
 quirk of human psychology that people tend to like to correct things that 
 are already in place rather than creating new content in the first place. 
 So getting something in place quickly (even if not 100% perfect) is more 
 important than getting it publisher-ready on the first draft.

 Mark

 On Friday, November 21, 2014 6:37:16 PM UTC-8, Jed Carty wrote:
>
> I think that we could try making a public tiddlywiki on tiddlyspot and 
> make a list of topics people want documentation for the most, then 
> collect 
> explanations and examples from people and hopefully get someone who is 
> good 
> at technical writing or design to collect 

Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Dave

> And 5.1.5 will be released this week, right Jeremy?

Yes, there's nothing else big planned, but it'll still be a couple of days
before the release. In particular there's quite a few contributions
awaiting merging on github.

Best wishes

Jeremy.


On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 1:29 PM, David Gifford  wrote:

> And 5.1.5 will be released this week, right Jeremy? I am really eager to
> have this update. It's got some great stuff in it. Also I am eager because
> I have used some of the define newhere bits you  emailed me, but they don't
> seem to work in 5.1.4, only in my copy of the prerelease of 5.1.5. This new
> version HAS been in the works for a while, so don't keep us in suspense
> forever! :-)
>
> Dave
>
> On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 7:21 AM, Jeremy Ruston 
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks everyone for their contributions. There are a bunch of good
>> suggestions in the thread which I'll try to pick up in the hangout on
>> Tuesday.
>>
>> A big topic is clearly how we improve the contribution process for the
>> documentation. I have a couple of thoughts:
>>
>> * We could initiate a TW5 community space on tiddlyspace along the lines
>> of tiddlywiki.org - it's a proven way to work. It would be good to try
>> out TW5's support for TiddlySpace in a multiuser setting (since it's not
>> been done before I think there may be some wrinkles to be ironed out).
>> * We should support documentation contributions by people taking a copy
>> of tiddlywiki.com onto tiddlyspot and making their edits there. I could
>> easily build a batch file that pulls down their changes and applies them to
>> the repo, so that I can convert their changes to a pull request (I don't
>> think there's any avoiding needing a moderation step for tiddlywiki.com)
>> * An alternative workflow for accepting those contributions would be to
>> support visual diffing in the import manager
>>
>> I've also got a couple of clarifications.
>>
>> > Perhaps there's a way to display a sticky above the github issues.
>>
>> We don't want to discourage people from suggesting and discussing new
>> features, but lets see how it goes and I can add a banner to the "new
>> issue" page if needed.
>>
>> > 4. You may think about a two level plugin list: the top part would list
>> the plugins that are officially sanctioned and compatible with the latest
>> release. The bottom part could be a growing list of webpages where
>> individuals have stored there plugins and goodies they have created for TW
>> but that may or may not continue to be compatible.
>>
>> That's pretty much what we've got:
>>
>> * Plugins listed in http://tiddlywiki.com/#Plugins are the officially
>> maintained and distributed plugins. They will be automatically upgraded
>> when using http://tiddlywiki.com/upgrade.html
>> * Community plugins are listed in http://tiddlywiki.com/#Resources
>>
>> Perhaps we should maintain a catalogue of community plugins that is
>> separate from the general resources list.
>>
>> > Will 1.1.5 and the export feature make release before the moratorium
>> begins?
>>
>> Yes, the moratorium would start after 5.1.5's release.
>>
>> Best wishes
>>
>> Jeremy
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 6:43 PM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <
>> tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Whenever you have an open web page, you end up with spammers trying to
>>> create link drops.
>>>
>>> Probably a real wiki (with authentication) or even just a special thread
>>> on this forum would be better. I believe the better wiki systems track
>>> history, so changes can be rolled back when something useful has been
>>> overwritten.
>>>
>>> I feel the github process discourages documentation. The problem is that
>>> it's the same system of review for documentation as for code. Which means
>>> that you may have to wait a week or so before changes get applied, Sure,
>>> CODE needs to be thoroughly vetted so that TW doesn't break. But, unlike
>>> code, poor documentation is usually better than NO documentation, and it
>>> can be peer-reviewed and tweaked as time goes along. It's an odd quirk of
>>> human psychology that people tend to like to correct things that are
>>> already in place rather than creating new content in the first place. So
>>> getting something in place quickly (even if not 100% perfect) is more
>>> important than getting it publisher-ready on the first draft.
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>> On Friday, November 21, 2014 6:37:16 PM UTC-8, Jed Carty wrote:

 I think that we could try making a public tiddlywiki on tiddlyspot and
 make a list of topics people want documentation for the most, then collect
 explanations and examples from people and hopefully get someone who is good
 at technical writing or design to collect everything into a nice tiddler we
 can submit for inclusion on the main page.

 Is there interest in a project like this? It would allow people to make
 small updates or suggestions for the documentation without having to do the
 entire tiddler by themse

Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[David Gifford]

And 5.1.5 will be released this week, right Jeremy? I am really eager to
have this update. It's got some great stuff in it. Also I am eager because
I have used some of the define newhere bits you  emailed me, but they don't
seem to work in 5.1.4, only in my copy of the prerelease of 5.1.5. This new
version HAS been in the works for a while, so don't keep us in suspense
forever! :-)

Dave

On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 7:21 AM, Jeremy Ruston 
wrote:

> Thanks everyone for their contributions. There are a bunch of good
> suggestions in the thread which I'll try to pick up in the hangout on
> Tuesday.
>
> A big topic is clearly how we improve the contribution process for the
> documentation. I have a couple of thoughts:
>
> * We could initiate a TW5 community space on tiddlyspace along the lines
> of tiddlywiki.org - it's a proven way to work. It would be good to try
> out TW5's support for TiddlySpace in a multiuser setting (since it's not
> been done before I think there may be some wrinkles to be ironed out).
> * We should support documentation contributions by people taking a copy of
> tiddlywiki.com onto tiddlyspot and making their edits there. I could
> easily build a batch file that pulls down their changes and applies them to
> the repo, so that I can convert their changes to a pull request (I don't
> think there's any avoiding needing a moderation step for tiddlywiki.com)
> * An alternative workflow for accepting those contributions would be to
> support visual diffing in the import manager
>
> I've also got a couple of clarifications.
>
> > Perhaps there's a way to display a sticky above the github issues.
>
> We don't want to discourage people from suggesting and discussing new
> features, but lets see how it goes and I can add a banner to the "new
> issue" page if needed.
>
> > 4. You may think about a two level plugin list: the top part would list
> the plugins that are officially sanctioned and compatible with the latest
> release. The bottom part could be a growing list of webpages where
> individuals have stored there plugins and goodies they have created for TW
> but that may or may not continue to be compatible.
>
> That's pretty much what we've got:
>
> * Plugins listed in http://tiddlywiki.com/#Plugins are the officially
> maintained and distributed plugins. They will be automatically upgraded
> when using http://tiddlywiki.com/upgrade.html
> * Community plugins are listed in http://tiddlywiki.com/#Resources
>
> Perhaps we should maintain a catalogue of community plugins that is
> separate from the general resources list.
>
> > Will 1.1.5 and the export feature make release before the moratorium
> begins?
>
> Yes, the moratorium would start after 5.1.5's release.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 6:43 PM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <
> tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> Whenever you have an open web page, you end up with spammers trying to
>> create link drops.
>>
>> Probably a real wiki (with authentication) or even just a special thread
>> on this forum would be better. I believe the better wiki systems track
>> history, so changes can be rolled back when something useful has been
>> overwritten.
>>
>> I feel the github process discourages documentation. The problem is that
>> it's the same system of review for documentation as for code. Which means
>> that you may have to wait a week or so before changes get applied, Sure,
>> CODE needs to be thoroughly vetted so that TW doesn't break. But, unlike
>> code, poor documentation is usually better than NO documentation, and it
>> can be peer-reviewed and tweaked as time goes along. It's an odd quirk of
>> human psychology that people tend to like to correct things that are
>> already in place rather than creating new content in the first place. So
>> getting something in place quickly (even if not 100% perfect) is more
>> important than getting it publisher-ready on the first draft.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> On Friday, November 21, 2014 6:37:16 PM UTC-8, Jed Carty wrote:
>>>
>>> I think that we could try making a public tiddlywiki on tiddlyspot and
>>> make a list of topics people want documentation for the most, then collect
>>> explanations and examples from people and hopefully get someone who is good
>>> at technical writing or design to collect everything into a nice tiddler we
>>> can submit for inclusion on the main page.
>>>
>>> Is there interest in a project like this? It would allow people to make
>>> small updates or suggestions for the documentation without having to do the
>>> entire tiddler by themselves. Using github isn't hard, but this may
>>> encourage more people to help out. That is if multi-user wikis are a viable
>>> solution, if not we would need someone to manage it, which may not be
>>> better than just using github the way it is now.
>>>
>>>
>>>  --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "TiddlyWiki" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emai

Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Jeremy Ruston]

Thanks everyone for their contributions. There are a bunch of good
suggestions in the thread which I'll try to pick up in the hangout on
Tuesday.

A big topic is clearly how we improve the contribution process for the
documentation. I have a couple of thoughts:

* We could initiate a TW5 community space on tiddlyspace along the lines of
tiddlywiki.org - it's a proven way to work. It would be good to try out
TW5's support for TiddlySpace in a multiuser setting (since it's not been
done before I think there may be some wrinkles to be ironed out).
* We should support documentation contributions by people taking a copy of
tiddlywiki.com onto tiddlyspot and making their edits there. I could easily
build a batch file that pulls down their changes and applies them to the
repo, so that I can convert their changes to a pull request (I don't think
there's any avoiding needing a moderation step for tiddlywiki.com)
* An alternative workflow for accepting those contributions would be to
support visual diffing in the import manager

I've also got a couple of clarifications.

> Perhaps there's a way to display a sticky above the github issues.

We don't want to discourage people from suggesting and discussing new
features, but lets see how it goes and I can add a banner to the "new
issue" page if needed.

> 4. You may think about a two level plugin list: the top part would list
the plugins that are officially sanctioned and compatible with the latest
release. The bottom part could be a growing list of webpages where
individuals have stored there plugins and goodies they have created for TW
but that may or may not continue to be compatible.

That's pretty much what we've got:

* Plugins listed in http://tiddlywiki.com/#Plugins are the officially
maintained and distributed plugins. They will be automatically upgraded
when using http://tiddlywiki.com/upgrade.html
* Community plugins are listed in http://tiddlywiki.com/#Resources

Perhaps we should maintain a catalogue of community plugins that is
separate from the general resources list.

> Will 1.1.5 and the export feature make release before the moratorium
begins?

Yes, the moratorium would start after 5.1.5's release.

Best wishes

Jeremy


On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 6:43 PM, 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <
tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Whenever you have an open web page, you end up with spammers trying to
> create link drops.
>
> Probably a real wiki (with authentication) or even just a special thread
> on this forum would be better. I believe the better wiki systems track
> history, so changes can be rolled back when something useful has been
> overwritten.
>
> I feel the github process discourages documentation. The problem is that
> it's the same system of review for documentation as for code. Which means
> that you may have to wait a week or so before changes get applied, Sure,
> CODE needs to be thoroughly vetted so that TW doesn't break. But, unlike
> code, poor documentation is usually better than NO documentation, and it
> can be peer-reviewed and tweaked as time goes along. It's an odd quirk of
> human psychology that people tend to like to correct things that are
> already in place rather than creating new content in the first place. So
> getting something in place quickly (even if not 100% perfect) is more
> important than getting it publisher-ready on the first draft.
>
> Mark
>
> On Friday, November 21, 2014 6:37:16 PM UTC-8, Jed Carty wrote:
>>
>> I think that we could try making a public tiddlywiki on tiddlyspot and
>> make a list of topics people want documentation for the most, then collect
>> explanations and examples from people and hopefully get someone who is good
>> at technical writing or design to collect everything into a nice tiddler we
>> can submit for inclusion on the main page.
>>
>> Is there interest in a project like this? It would allow people to make
>> small updates or suggestions for the documentation without having to do the
>> entire tiddler by themselves. Using github isn't hard, but this may
>> encourage more people to help out. That is if multi-user wikis are a viable
>> solution, if not we would need someone to manage it, which may not be
>> better than just using github the way it is now.
>>
>>
>>  --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "TiddlyWiki" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>



-- 
Jeremy Ruston
mailto:jeremy.rus...@gmail.com

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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To post to this group, send email to ti

[tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Whenever you have an open web page, you end up with spammers trying to 
create link drops.

Probably a real wiki (with authentication) or even just a special thread on 
this forum would be better. I believe the better wiki systems track 
history, so changes can be rolled back when something useful has been 
overwritten.

I feel the github process discourages documentation. The problem is that 
it's the same system of review for documentation as for code. Which means 
that you may have to wait a week or so before changes get applied, Sure, 
CODE needs to be thoroughly vetted so that TW doesn't break. But, unlike 
code, poor documentation is usually better than NO documentation, and it 
can be peer-reviewed and tweaked as time goes along. It's an odd quirk of 
human psychology that people tend to like to correct things that are 
already in place rather than creating new content in the first place. So 
getting something in place quickly (even if not 100% perfect) is more 
important than getting it publisher-ready on the first draft.

Mark

On Friday, November 21, 2014 6:37:16 PM UTC-8, Jed Carty wrote:
>
> I think that we could try making a public tiddlywiki on tiddlyspot and 
> make a list of topics people want documentation for the most, then collect 
> explanations and examples from people and hopefully get someone who is good 
> at technical writing or design to collect everything into a nice tiddler we 
> can submit for inclusion on the main page. 
>
> Is there interest in a project like this? It would allow people to make 
> small updates or suggestions for the documentation without having to do the 
> entire tiddler by themselves. Using github isn't hard, but this may 
> encourage more people to help out. That is if multi-user wikis are a viable 
> solution, if not we would need someone to manage it, which may not be 
> better than just using github the way it is now.
>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TiddlyWiki" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Whenever you have an open web page, you end up with spammers trying to 
create link drops.

Probably a real wiki (with authentication) or even just a special thread on 
this forum would be better. I believe the better wiki systems track 
history, so changes can be rolled back when something useful has been 
overwritten.

I feel the github process discourages documentation. The problem is that 
it's the same system of review for documentation as for code. Which means 
that you may have to wait a week or so before changes get applied, Sure, 
CODE needs to be thoroughly vetted so that TW doesn't break. But, unlike 
code, poor documentation is usually better than NO documentation, and it 
can be peer-reviewed and tweaked as time goes along. It's an odd quirk of 
human psychology that people tend to like to correct things that are 
already in place rather than creating new content in the first place. So 
getting something in place quickly (even if not 100% perfect) is more 
important than getting it publisher-ready on the first draft.

Mark


On Friday, November 21, 2014 6:37:16 PM UTC-8, Jed Carty wrote:
>
> I think that we could try making a public tiddlywiki on tiddlyspot and 
> make a list of topics people want documentation for the most, then collect 
> explanations and examples from people and hopefully get someone who is good 
> at technical writing or design to collect everything into a nice tiddler we 
> can submit for inclusion on the main page. 
>
> Is there interest in a project like this? It would allow people to make 
> small updates or suggestions for the documentation without having to do the 
> entire tiddler by themselves. Using github isn't hard, but this may 
> encourage more people to help out. That is if multi-user wikis are a viable 
> solution, if not we would need someone to manage it, which may not be 
> better than just using github the way it is now.
>
> On Friday, November 21, 2014 5:27:26 AM UTC-7, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>>
>> Several recent events have conspired to make me suggest that until the 
>> end of the year I operate a moratorium on new features for TiddlyWiki5. 
>> Instead, I propose to focus on documentation, and presentation of the 
>> available editions and plugins. I will of course continue to fix bugs as 
>> they are reported wherever it's possible to do so.
>>
>> (In the next few weeks I will also have to pay some attention to 
>> TiddlyFox and TiddlyDesktop. In the case of TiddlyFox, imminent Firefox 
>> architectural changes will require the architecture of the add-on to be 
>> significantly updated).
>>
>> One trigger is obviously the recent thread discussing obstacles to 
>> TiddlyWiki's success:
>>
>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/_rScP9Lscdg/discussion
>>
>> A more subtle trigger is my recent experience with implementing the 
>> "export" features for 5.1.5.
>>
>> I started work on those features on around 12 days ago, on November 9th. 
>> I committed the first working code on November 10th. Ever since then I've 
>> been tied up with fixing up the loose ends: making the strings 
>> translatable, making improvements in response to feedback. Most recently, 
>> I've been implementing nested popups so that the export button will 
>> function when it is invoked through the "more" menu. The initial 
>> implementation was quick and fun, but a lot of the work since has been a 
>> slow slog.
>>
>> In my experience that is all pretty typical for a major new UI feature: 2 
>> days to get the basic implementation followed by 5 to 10 days of working 
>> through the edge cases and cleaning up. Of course, part of the reason it 
>> takes so long is that alongside I'm still working on bug fixes, 
>> documentation and the occasional new feature such as the tabbed table of 
>> contents.
>>
>> The third trigger starts with the fact that I've been busy over the last 
>> few days, and unable to participate in the mailing list threads as much as 
>> I'd like. I've still been scanning the messages, and I'm drawn to the 
>> conclusion that for many people here, some of the quite basic features of 
>> TiddlyWiki are, thanks to the lack of documentation, indistinguishable from 
>> voodoo. For example, Danielo's terrific recent post on the "variable" 
>> attribute of the list widget was pretty interesting: another basic feature 
>> that hasn't been well enough communicated.
>>
>> So, now that I stand back, I'm not at all sure that the work on the 
>> "export" features was the best use of my time. It's an undeniably important 
>> feature in terms of rounding out the interoperability of TiddlyWiki, but it 
>> makes little or no difference to new users.
>>
>> My worry is that this will keep happening. There's plenty of voices here 
>> calling for new features, and I'm naturally attracted to the intricate 
>> problem solving required to implement them. I've a deep motivation to keep 
>> smashing through the roadmap of planned features.
>>
>> Hence my proposal for a new feature mo

[tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Mat]

On Saturday, November 22, 2014 3:37:16 AM UTC+1, Jed Carty wrote:
>
> I think that we could try making a public tiddlywiki on tiddlyspot and 
> make a list of topics people want documentation for the most, then collect 
> explanations and examples from people and hopefully get someone who is good 
> at technical writing or design to collect everything into a nice tiddler we 
> can submit for inclusion on the main page. 
>


That sounds easier than github pull requests (if I'm using the term 
correctly) but there will be a problem with version management i.e an 
upload overwrites the latest version of the whole wiki potentially 
overwriting something that had been contributed just recently.

Tiddlyspace would probably work better in this respect as each tiddler is 
saved separately. There could be a policy that you're not allowed to 
manipulate, or at least not delete, someone elses tiddler but instead e.g 
append a new tiddler with your updated version. Maybe www.tiddlywiki.org, 
which actually is on tiddlyspace and already open for edit, could be 
modified to suit this ( @tobibeer )

However... the greater crux is that documentation is still very demanding, 
effectively limiting it to the few individuals who'll contribute. And while 
a few individuals can accomplish great things, I think documentation for TW 
is a big task. Heck, one of our *super* contributors estimates it will take 
3 months of continuous writing to get the most basic questions explained 
well and he is super qualified on all matters. link 
.

I outlined an idea in the notorious thread (linked to in Jeremys post 
above) that takes another approach to documentation. The work to set up 
system that is probably much more limited than the work needed for 
documentation (which is open ended more or less) - but, of course, few *can* 
implement it and we can't expect anyone to *actually* implement it. 
(Personally, I'd gladly help support such a project financially. I believe 
it has potential to bring temendous value to the community. Anyone 
interested?)

I also started another thread 
 
with, if technically possible, is yet aother completely differnt take on 
what could be used for documentation contributions.

Another question is of course what would bring the most value to TW. I'm 
not certain it's the documentation issue, important as that is. Then again, 
in practice people will (and should) only do what they like in an unpaid 
project :-)

<:-)

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[tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Alberto Molina]

+1

We all love new features, but the success of TW is more important.

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[tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Jed Carty]

I think that we could try making a public tiddlywiki on tiddlyspot and make 
a list of topics people want documentation for the most, then collect 
explanations and examples from people and hopefully get someone who is good 
at technical writing or design to collect everything into a nice tiddler we 
can submit for inclusion on the main page. 

Is there interest in a project like this? It would allow people to make 
small updates or suggestions for the documentation without having to do the 
entire tiddler by themselves. Using github isn't hard, but this may 
encourage more people to help out. That is if multi-user wikis are a viable 
solution, if not we would need someone to manage it, which may not be 
better than just using github the way it is now.

On Friday, November 21, 2014 5:27:26 AM UTC-7, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> Several recent events have conspired to make me suggest that until the end 
> of the year I operate a moratorium on new features for TiddlyWiki5. 
> Instead, I propose to focus on documentation, and presentation of the 
> available editions and plugins. I will of course continue to fix bugs as 
> they are reported wherever it's possible to do so.
>
> (In the next few weeks I will also have to pay some attention to TiddlyFox 
> and TiddlyDesktop. In the case of TiddlyFox, imminent Firefox architectural 
> changes will require the architecture of the add-on to be significantly 
> updated).
>
> One trigger is obviously the recent thread discussing obstacles to 
> TiddlyWiki's success:
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/_rScP9Lscdg/discussion
>
> A more subtle trigger is my recent experience with implementing the 
> "export" features for 5.1.5.
>
> I started work on those features on around 12 days ago, on November 9th. I 
> committed the first working code on November 10th. Ever since then I've 
> been tied up with fixing up the loose ends: making the strings 
> translatable, making improvements in response to feedback. Most recently, 
> I've been implementing nested popups so that the export button will 
> function when it is invoked through the "more" menu. The initial 
> implementation was quick and fun, but a lot of the work since has been a 
> slow slog.
>
> In my experience that is all pretty typical for a major new UI feature: 2 
> days to get the basic implementation followed by 5 to 10 days of working 
> through the edge cases and cleaning up. Of course, part of the reason it 
> takes so long is that alongside I'm still working on bug fixes, 
> documentation and the occasional new feature such as the tabbed table of 
> contents.
>
> The third trigger starts with the fact that I've been busy over the last 
> few days, and unable to participate in the mailing list threads as much as 
> I'd like. I've still been scanning the messages, and I'm drawn to the 
> conclusion that for many people here, some of the quite basic features of 
> TiddlyWiki are, thanks to the lack of documentation, indistinguishable from 
> voodoo. For example, Danielo's terrific recent post on the "variable" 
> attribute of the list widget was pretty interesting: another basic feature 
> that hasn't been well enough communicated.
>
> So, now that I stand back, I'm not at all sure that the work on the 
> "export" features was the best use of my time. It's an undeniably important 
> feature in terms of rounding out the interoperability of TiddlyWiki, but it 
> makes little or no difference to new users.
>
> My worry is that this will keep happening. There's plenty of voices here 
> calling for new features, and I'm naturally attracted to the intricate 
> problem solving required to implement them. I've a deep motivation to keep 
> smashing through the roadmap of planned features.
>
> Hence my proposal for a new feature moratorium. It's a simple way to 
> ensure that my attention stays focussed on the really important things for 
> the next few weeks.
>
> Some quick googling suggests that new feature moratoriums are not uncommon:
>
> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=new+features+moratorium
>
> I'd be interested in any thoughts on this, and of course we'll discuss it 
> further at the hangout next Tuesday,
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Jeremy Ruston
> mailto:jeremy...@gmail.com 
>  

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[tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Richard Smith]

+1

@PMario

"... as long as also every other non programming and programming community 
member contributes to the documentation improvement. "

Hi Mario,

Is there any chance we could coordinate this effort somehow? I am happy to 
lend my time to the project but I'm a bit unsure as to where to start. Some 
of the improvements I would like to make don't involve re-writing the text 
of individual tiddlers but re-arranging and adding tiddlers to make things 
clearer.

For example - GettingStarted really just contains information about 
downloading and saving on different platforms whereas I think this could be 
moved to a tiddler called "Downloading and Saving" and getting started 
could be a much less imposing list. "1. Download TW   2. Create some 
content and check that you can save it   3. Explore the Basic editing 
features"

The other problem I'd like to address is how we give people more relevant 
results from the search box. For example, I'm a new user who's figured out 
basic linking and tagging and now I'd like to make some lists. If I type 
'list' into the search box it doesn't help me much to find what I'm looking 
for.

Perhaps we could have a 'docs' edition with some extra magic in it to 
prioritise content according to relevance. For example, we would put the 
ListWidget tiddler at the top of the above search results.

If you have seen something specific that you think can be improved in the 
docs, perhaps we could work on it together?

Regards,
Richard

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[tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Mat]

My +1 shouldn't surprise much. 

@everyone - Don't let my views distract you from doing what you love doing 
and your personal goals with TW. I think that in non-profit / no-pay 
projects the common, and necessary, denominator for anyone doing anything 
is enjoyment.

<:-)


On Friday, November 21, 2014 1:27:26 PM UTC+1, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> Several recent events have conspired to make me suggest that until the end 
> of the year I operate a moratorium on new features for TiddlyWiki5. 
> Instead, I propose to focus on documentation, and presentation of the 
> available editions and plugins. I will of course continue to fix bugs as 
> they are reported wherever it's possible to do so.
>
> (In the next few weeks I will also have to pay some attention to TiddlyFox 
> and TiddlyDesktop. In the case of TiddlyFox, imminent Firefox architectural 
> changes will require the architecture of the add-on to be significantly 
> updated).
>
> One trigger is obviously the recent thread discussing obstacles to 
> TiddlyWiki's success:
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/_rScP9Lscdg/discussion
>
> A more subtle trigger is my recent experience with implementing the 
> "export" features for 5.1.5.
>
> I started work on those features on around 12 days ago, on November 9th. I 
> committed the first working code on November 10th. Ever since then I've 
> been tied up with fixing up the loose ends: making the strings 
> translatable, making improvements in response to feedback. Most recently, 
> I've been implementing nested popups so that the export button will 
> function when it is invoked through the "more" menu. The initial 
> implementation was quick and fun, but a lot of the work since has been a 
> slow slog.
>
> In my experience that is all pretty typical for a major new UI feature: 2 
> days to get the basic implementation followed by 5 to 10 days of working 
> through the edge cases and cleaning up. Of course, part of the reason it 
> takes so long is that alongside I'm still working on bug fixes, 
> documentation and the occasional new feature such as the tabbed table of 
> contents.
>
> The third trigger starts with the fact that I've been busy over the last 
> few days, and unable to participate in the mailing list threads as much as 
> I'd like. I've still been scanning the messages, and I'm drawn to the 
> conclusion that for many people here, some of the quite basic features of 
> TiddlyWiki are, thanks to the lack of documentation, indistinguishable from 
> voodoo. For example, Danielo's terrific recent post on the "variable" 
> attribute of the list widget was pretty interesting: another basic feature 
> that hasn't been well enough communicated.
>
> So, now that I stand back, I'm not at all sure that the work on the 
> "export" features was the best use of my time. It's an undeniably important 
> feature in terms of rounding out the interoperability of TiddlyWiki, but it 
> makes little or no difference to new users.
>
> My worry is that this will keep happening. There's plenty of voices here 
> calling for new features, and I'm naturally attracted to the intricate 
> problem solving required to implement them. I've a deep motivation to keep 
> smashing through the roadmap of planned features.
>
> Hence my proposal for a new feature moratorium. It's a simple way to 
> ensure that my attention stays focussed on the really important things for 
> the next few weeks.
>
> Some quick googling suggests that new feature moratoriums are not uncommon:
>
> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=new+features+moratorium
>
> I'd be interested in any thoughts on this, and of course we'll discuss it 
> further at the hangout next Tuesday,
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Jeremy Ruston
> mailto:jeremy...@gmail.com 
>  

-- 
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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Ed Dixon]

I do agree Jon but at the same time if I understand what transpired it was
meant as constructive criticism and upon reflection Jeremy feels it is in
the best interest of the project to slow new feature development down a bit
and refocus his efforts. As a new comer I have to admit I am drowning in
the flexibility and the number of features already available much less
keeping up with all of the new features being added.

On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Jon  wrote:

> I didn't like the recent post that provoked the review - it seemed very
> ungrateful to me.
>
> I use tiddlywiki every day and it has revolutionised my study and I'm just
> thankful for whatever improvements I can pick up along the way.
>
> As far as I'm concerned it's a work in progress and people should accept
> that and focus on the benefits rather than any current drawbacks.
>
> Just my two-penneth worth.
>
> Jon
>
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, 21 November 2014 12:27:26 UTC, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>>
>> Several recent events have conspired to make me suggest that until the
>> end of the year I operate a moratorium on new features for TiddlyWiki5.
>> Instead, I propose to focus on documentation, and presentation of the
>> available editions and plugins. I will of course continue to fix bugs as
>> they are reported wherever it's possible to do so.
>>
>> (In the next few weeks I will also have to pay some attention to
>> TiddlyFox and TiddlyDesktop. In the case of TiddlyFox, imminent Firefox
>> architectural changes will require the architecture of the add-on to be
>> significantly updated).
>>
>> One trigger is obviously the recent thread discussing obstacles to
>> TiddlyWiki's success:
>>
>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/_rScP9Lscdg/discussion
>>
>> A more subtle trigger is my recent experience with implementing the
>> "export" features for 5.1.5.
>>
>> I started work on those features on around 12 days ago, on November 9th.
>> I committed the first working code on November 10th. Ever since then I've
>> been tied up with fixing up the loose ends: making the strings
>> translatable, making improvements in response to feedback. Most recently,
>> I've been implementing nested popups so that the export button will
>> function when it is invoked through the "more" menu. The initial
>> implementation was quick and fun, but a lot of the work since has been a
>> slow slog.
>>
>> In my experience that is all pretty typical for a major new UI feature: 2
>> days to get the basic implementation followed by 5 to 10 days of working
>> through the edge cases and cleaning up. Of course, part of the reason it
>> takes so long is that alongside I'm still working on bug fixes,
>> documentation and the occasional new feature such as the tabbed table of
>> contents.
>>
>> The third trigger starts with the fact that I've been busy over the last
>> few days, and unable to participate in the mailing list threads as much as
>> I'd like. I've still been scanning the messages, and I'm drawn to the
>> conclusion that for many people here, some of the quite basic features of
>> TiddlyWiki are, thanks to the lack of documentation, indistinguishable from
>> voodoo. For example, Danielo's terrific recent post on the "variable"
>> attribute of the list widget was pretty interesting: another basic feature
>> that hasn't been well enough communicated.
>>
>> So, now that I stand back, I'm not at all sure that the work on the
>> "export" features was the best use of my time. It's an undeniably important
>> feature in terms of rounding out the interoperability of TiddlyWiki, but it
>> makes little or no difference to new users.
>>
>> My worry is that this will keep happening. There's plenty of voices here
>> calling for new features, and I'm naturally attracted to the intricate
>> problem solving required to implement them. I've a deep motivation to keep
>> smashing through the roadmap of planned features.
>>
>> Hence my proposal for a new feature moratorium. It's a simple way to
>> ensure that my attention stays focussed on the really important things for
>> the next few weeks.
>>
>> Some quick googling suggests that new feature moratoriums are not
>> uncommon:
>>
>> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=new+features+moratorium
>>
>> I'd be interested in any thoughts on this, and of course we'll discuss it
>> further at the hangout next Tuesday,
>>
>> Best wishes
>>
>> Jeremy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jeremy Ruston
>> mailto:jeremy...@gmail.com
>>
>  --
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> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

-- 

[tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Jon]

I didn't like the recent post that provoked the review - it seemed very 
ungrateful to me.

I use tiddlywiki every day and it has revolutionised my study and I'm just 
thankful for whatever improvements I can pick up along the way.

As far as I'm concerned it's a work in progress and people should accept 
that and focus on the benefits rather than any current drawbacks.

Just my two-penneth worth.

Jon




On Friday, 21 November 2014 12:27:26 UTC, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> Several recent events have conspired to make me suggest that until the end 
> of the year I operate a moratorium on new features for TiddlyWiki5. 
> Instead, I propose to focus on documentation, and presentation of the 
> available editions and plugins. I will of course continue to fix bugs as 
> they are reported wherever it's possible to do so.
>
> (In the next few weeks I will also have to pay some attention to TiddlyFox 
> and TiddlyDesktop. In the case of TiddlyFox, imminent Firefox architectural 
> changes will require the architecture of the add-on to be significantly 
> updated).
>
> One trigger is obviously the recent thread discussing obstacles to 
> TiddlyWiki's success:
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/_rScP9Lscdg/discussion
>
> A more subtle trigger is my recent experience with implementing the 
> "export" features for 5.1.5.
>
> I started work on those features on around 12 days ago, on November 9th. I 
> committed the first working code on November 10th. Ever since then I've 
> been tied up with fixing up the loose ends: making the strings 
> translatable, making improvements in response to feedback. Most recently, 
> I've been implementing nested popups so that the export button will 
> function when it is invoked through the "more" menu. The initial 
> implementation was quick and fun, but a lot of the work since has been a 
> slow slog.
>
> In my experience that is all pretty typical for a major new UI feature: 2 
> days to get the basic implementation followed by 5 to 10 days of working 
> through the edge cases and cleaning up. Of course, part of the reason it 
> takes so long is that alongside I'm still working on bug fixes, 
> documentation and the occasional new feature such as the tabbed table of 
> contents.
>
> The third trigger starts with the fact that I've been busy over the last 
> few days, and unable to participate in the mailing list threads as much as 
> I'd like. I've still been scanning the messages, and I'm drawn to the 
> conclusion that for many people here, some of the quite basic features of 
> TiddlyWiki are, thanks to the lack of documentation, indistinguishable from 
> voodoo. For example, Danielo's terrific recent post on the "variable" 
> attribute of the list widget was pretty interesting: another basic feature 
> that hasn't been well enough communicated.
>
> So, now that I stand back, I'm not at all sure that the work on the 
> "export" features was the best use of my time. It's an undeniably important 
> feature in terms of rounding out the interoperability of TiddlyWiki, but it 
> makes little or no difference to new users.
>
> My worry is that this will keep happening. There's plenty of voices here 
> calling for new features, and I'm naturally attracted to the intricate 
> problem solving required to implement them. I've a deep motivation to keep 
> smashing through the roadmap of planned features.
>
> Hence my proposal for a new feature moratorium. It's a simple way to 
> ensure that my attention stays focussed on the really important things for 
> the next few weeks.
>
> Some quick googling suggests that new feature moratoriums are not uncommon:
>
> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=new+features+moratorium
>
> I'd be interested in any thoughts on this, and of course we'll discuss it 
> further at the hangout next Tuesday,
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Jeremy Ruston
> mailto:jeremy...@gmail.com 
>  

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[tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Ed Dixon]

I feel it should be expected. I am surprised you haven't decided to take at 
least a month off and celebrate TW5 leaving the nest :) It allows the smoke 
to clear, noobs like me to catch up on basic concepts and features. I am 
sure plugin development will continue to move forward within our community 
here but you already do so much for us! Honestly for me it will be nice to 
work with a non moving target for a while. Will 1.1.5 and the export 
feature make release before the moratorium begins?

On Friday, November 21, 2014 5:27:26 AM UTC-7, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> Several recent events have conspired to make me suggest that until the end 
> of the year I operate a moratorium on new features for TiddlyWiki5. 
> Instead, I propose to focus on documentation, and presentation of the 
> available editions and plugins. I will of course continue to fix bugs as 
> they are reported wherever it's possible to do so.
>
> (In the next few weeks I will also have to pay some attention to TiddlyFox 
> and TiddlyDesktop. In the case of TiddlyFox, imminent Firefox architectural 
> changes will require the architecture of the add-on to be significantly 
> updated).
>
> One trigger is obviously the recent thread discussing obstacles to 
> TiddlyWiki's success:
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/_rScP9Lscdg/discussion
>
> A more subtle trigger is my recent experience with implementing the 
> "export" features for 5.1.5.
>
> I started work on those features on around 12 days ago, on November 9th. I 
> committed the first working code on November 10th. Ever since then I've 
> been tied up with fixing up the loose ends: making the strings 
> translatable, making improvements in response to feedback. Most recently, 
> I've been implementing nested popups so that the export button will 
> function when it is invoked through the "more" menu. The initial 
> implementation was quick and fun, but a lot of the work since has been a 
> slow slog.
>
> In my experience that is all pretty typical for a major new UI feature: 2 
> days to get the basic implementation followed by 5 to 10 days of working 
> through the edge cases and cleaning up. Of course, part of the reason it 
> takes so long is that alongside I'm still working on bug fixes, 
> documentation and the occasional new feature such as the tabbed table of 
> contents.
>
> The third trigger starts with the fact that I've been busy over the last 
> few days, and unable to participate in the mailing list threads as much as 
> I'd like. I've still been scanning the messages, and I'm drawn to the 
> conclusion that for many people here, some of the quite basic features of 
> TiddlyWiki are, thanks to the lack of documentation, indistinguishable from 
> voodoo. For example, Danielo's terrific recent post on the "variable" 
> attribute of the list widget was pretty interesting: another basic feature 
> that hasn't been well enough communicated.
>
> So, now that I stand back, I'm not at all sure that the work on the 
> "export" features was the best use of my time. It's an undeniably important 
> feature in terms of rounding out the interoperability of TiddlyWiki, but it 
> makes little or no difference to new users.
>
> My worry is that this will keep happening. There's plenty of voices here 
> calling for new features, and I'm naturally attracted to the intricate 
> problem solving required to implement them. I've a deep motivation to keep 
> smashing through the roadmap of planned features.
>
> Hence my proposal for a new feature moratorium. It's a simple way to 
> ensure that my attention stays focussed on the really important things for 
> the next few weeks.
>
> Some quick googling suggests that new feature moratoriums are not uncommon:
>
> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=new+features+moratorium
>
> I'd be interested in any thoughts on this, and of course we'll discuss it 
> further at the hangout next Tuesday,
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Jeremy Ruston
> mailto:jeremy...@gmail.com 
>  

-- 
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[tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Ton Gerner]

+1

On Friday, November 21, 2014 4:55:26 PM UTC+1, Julio Peña wrote:
>
> +1
>
> In the heat of battle a good general knows when it time to resurvey the 
> situation. I believe that Tiddlywiki5's development has been going at an 
> accelerated pace ever since it came out of beta. As for myself, I'd the 
> time is right to take a deep breath and stand back a bit.
>
>
> Best regards to all,
>
> Julio
>
>
> On Friday, November 21, 2014 7:27:26 AM UTC-5, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>>
>> Several recent events have conspired to make me suggest that until the 
>> end of the year I operate a moratorium on new features for TiddlyWiki5. 
>> Instead, I propose to focus on documentation, and presentation of the 
>> available editions and plugins. I will of course continue to fix bugs as 
>> they are reported wherever it's possible to do so.
>>
>> (In the next few weeks I will also have to pay some attention to 
>> TiddlyFox and TiddlyDesktop. In the case of TiddlyFox, imminent Firefox 
>> architectural changes will require the architecture of the add-on to be 
>> significantly updated).
>>
>> One trigger is obviously the recent thread discussing obstacles to 
>> TiddlyWiki's success:
>>
>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/_rScP9Lscdg/discussion
>>
>> A more subtle trigger is my recent experience with implementing the 
>> "export" features for 5.1.5.
>>
>> I started work on those features on around 12 days ago, on November 9th. 
>> I committed the first working code on November 10th. Ever since then I've 
>> been tied up with fixing up the loose ends: making the strings 
>> translatable, making improvements in response to feedback. Most recently, 
>> I've been implementing nested popups so that the export button will 
>> function when it is invoked through the "more" menu. The initial 
>> implementation was quick and fun, but a lot of the work since has been a 
>> slow slog.
>>
>> In my experience that is all pretty typical for a major new UI feature: 2 
>> days to get the basic implementation followed by 5 to 10 days of working 
>> through the edge cases and cleaning up. Of course, part of the reason it 
>> takes so long is that alongside I'm still working on bug fixes, 
>> documentation and the occasional new feature such as the tabbed table of 
>> contents.
>>
>> The third trigger starts with the fact that I've been busy over the last 
>> few days, and unable to participate in the mailing list threads as much as 
>> I'd like. I've still been scanning the messages, and I'm drawn to the 
>> conclusion that for many people here, some of the quite basic features of 
>> TiddlyWiki are, thanks to the lack of documentation, indistinguishable from 
>> voodoo. For example, Danielo's terrific recent post on the "variable" 
>> attribute of the list widget was pretty interesting: another basic feature 
>> that hasn't been well enough communicated.
>>
>> So, now that I stand back, I'm not at all sure that the work on the 
>> "export" features was the best use of my time. It's an undeniably important 
>> feature in terms of rounding out the interoperability of TiddlyWiki, but it 
>> makes little or no difference to new users.
>>
>> My worry is that this will keep happening. There's plenty of voices here 
>> calling for new features, and I'm naturally attracted to the intricate 
>> problem solving required to implement them. I've a deep motivation to keep 
>> smashing through the roadmap of planned features.
>>
>> Hence my proposal for a new feature moratorium. It's a simple way to 
>> ensure that my attention stays focussed on the really important things for 
>> the next few weeks.
>>
>> Some quick googling suggests that new feature moratoriums are not 
>> uncommon:
>>
>> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=new+features+moratorium
>>
>> I'd be interested in any thoughts on this, and of course we'll discuss it 
>> further at the hangout next Tuesday,
>>
>> Best wishes
>>
>> Jeremy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Jeremy Ruston
>> mailto:jeremy...@gmail.com
>>  
>

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[tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Julio Peña]

+1

In the heat of battle a good general knows when it time to resurvey the 
situation. I believe that Tiddlywiki5's development has been going at an 
accelerated pace ever since it came out of beta. As for myself, I'd the 
time is right to take a deep breath and stand back a bit.


Best regards to all,

Julio


On Friday, November 21, 2014 7:27:26 AM UTC-5, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> Several recent events have conspired to make me suggest that until the end 
> of the year I operate a moratorium on new features for TiddlyWiki5. 
> Instead, I propose to focus on documentation, and presentation of the 
> available editions and plugins. I will of course continue to fix bugs as 
> they are reported wherever it's possible to do so.
>
> (In the next few weeks I will also have to pay some attention to TiddlyFox 
> and TiddlyDesktop. In the case of TiddlyFox, imminent Firefox architectural 
> changes will require the architecture of the add-on to be significantly 
> updated).
>
> One trigger is obviously the recent thread discussing obstacles to 
> TiddlyWiki's success:
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/_rScP9Lscdg/discussion
>
> A more subtle trigger is my recent experience with implementing the 
> "export" features for 5.1.5.
>
> I started work on those features on around 12 days ago, on November 9th. I 
> committed the first working code on November 10th. Ever since then I've 
> been tied up with fixing up the loose ends: making the strings 
> translatable, making improvements in response to feedback. Most recently, 
> I've been implementing nested popups so that the export button will 
> function when it is invoked through the "more" menu. The initial 
> implementation was quick and fun, but a lot of the work since has been a 
> slow slog.
>
> In my experience that is all pretty typical for a major new UI feature: 2 
> days to get the basic implementation followed by 5 to 10 days of working 
> through the edge cases and cleaning up. Of course, part of the reason it 
> takes so long is that alongside I'm still working on bug fixes, 
> documentation and the occasional new feature such as the tabbed table of 
> contents.
>
> The third trigger starts with the fact that I've been busy over the last 
> few days, and unable to participate in the mailing list threads as much as 
> I'd like. I've still been scanning the messages, and I'm drawn to the 
> conclusion that for many people here, some of the quite basic features of 
> TiddlyWiki are, thanks to the lack of documentation, indistinguishable from 
> voodoo. For example, Danielo's terrific recent post on the "variable" 
> attribute of the list widget was pretty interesting: another basic feature 
> that hasn't been well enough communicated.
>
> So, now that I stand back, I'm not at all sure that the work on the 
> "export" features was the best use of my time. It's an undeniably important 
> feature in terms of rounding out the interoperability of TiddlyWiki, but it 
> makes little or no difference to new users.
>
> My worry is that this will keep happening. There's plenty of voices here 
> calling for new features, and I'm naturally attracted to the intricate 
> problem solving required to implement them. I've a deep motivation to keep 
> smashing through the roadmap of planned features.
>
> Hence my proposal for a new feature moratorium. It's a simple way to 
> ensure that my attention stays focussed on the really important things for 
> the next few weeks.
>
> Some quick googling suggests that new feature moratoriums are not uncommon:
>
> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=new+features+moratorium
>
> I'd be interested in any thoughts on this, and of course we'll discuss it 
> further at the hangout next Tuesday,
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Jeremy Ruston
> mailto:jeremy...@gmail.com 
>  

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[tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[HansWobbe]

+1

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[tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[PMario]

@Jeremy, 
Could you set the "sticky flag" for this post for some time?
-m

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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Alex Hough]

great points Dave and Mario

Alex

On 21 November 2014 14:32, David Gifford  wrote:

> One other thing...there is a lot of helpful stuff on the hangouts, and
> Mario has done an awesome job of writing annotations for them. But still,
> there area almost 70 of them now, most of them two hours long. One possible
> help for TiddlyWiki users might be a *topical index of the Hangouts*. Not
> every single item in every hangout, mind you, but where Jeremy shows and
> explains a feature in a Hangout, or someone shows and explains their
> plugin, the index could give a link to the time at which that discussion
> starts. Just a thought.
>
> Examples
>
> JSXGraph Widget - [[link|https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xj7PNlUB5TA#]]
> Tabbed TOC - [[link|https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlOSyUXAtoA#]] (not
> actually sure if I got the links correctly, but you get the idea)
>
> Dave
>
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[tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[David Gifford]

One other thing...there is a lot of helpful stuff on the hangouts, and 
Mario has done an awesome job of writing annotations for them. But still, 
there area almost 70 of them now, most of them two hours long. One possible 
help for TiddlyWiki users might be a *topical index of the Hangouts*. Not 
every single item in every hangout, mind you, but where Jeremy shows and 
explains a feature in a Hangout, or someone shows and explains their 
plugin, the index could give a link to the time at which that discussion 
starts. Just a thought.

Examples

JSXGraph Widget - [[link|https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xj7PNlUB5TA#]]
Tabbed TOC - [[link|https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlOSyUXAtoA#]] (not 
actually sure if I got the links correctly, but you get the idea)

Dave

>  

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[tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[David Gifford]

Comments:

1. Don't be too hard on yourself about choices made. All of the 
possibilities - documentation, new features, bug fixes, helping people who 
are stuck on a use case problem - all of it is worthwhile. And while you 
are so productive as to seem omnipresent at times, you are still one finite 
being and can't do it all.

2. There was a book I saw in Barnes and Nobles earlier this year, I think 
it may have been called The One Thing, or something similar. But the 
author's point was that we should focus our efforts on the one thing that 
will make everything else either easier or unnecessary. I think a clear 
roadmap for new users, and everyone, on where to find this (e.g. Plugin 
list mechanism) and how to use that (documentation and examples) is 
something that could save you and others time and energy later, because you 
won't have to spend as much time explaining things, you can just paste a 
link to the instructions.

3. I am glad Eric is doing his book series, and I have already donated 
because it will be really valuable. And while I am currently too busy to do 
much writing for you - my work responsibilities grew dramatically starting 
in September - I did manage to sneak in some documentation yesterday. 
Hopefully that was helpful, though it probably needs some cleaning up. And 
hopefully here and there I can help you out some more, either with 
documentation or at least reviewing what there is and writing up 
suggestions of areas where documentation is needed or needs to be clearer. 
And others have done some how tos that may also help you see what is 
needed. Anyway, my point is that you are not alone. I second the others in 
giving a +1 to your plan to put the brakes on new features and do some 
consolidating and explaining of what is already there, but I also second 
those who say it should fall primarily on us, the TiddlyWiki community.

4. You may think about a two level plugin list: the top part would list the 
plugins that are officially sanctioned and compatible with the latest 
release. The bottom part could be a growing list of webpages where 
individuals have stored there plugins and goodies they have created for TW 
but that may or may not continue to be compatible.

5. Don't feel too bad about TiddlyWiki looking like voodoo. It is a highly 
customizable tool with limitless functional possibilities that positively 
screams at the user, "Create something totally new with me! Combine my 
filter operators and features in a new way!". I doubt the documentation 
will ever be sufficient to explain every possible use case. I have played 
around with it quite a bit, and I still scratch my head at things like text 
references and action-this or action-that. Remember that TiddlyWiki classic 
was also like voodoo. The learning curve was high, which is why I created 
TW for the rest of us and TiddlyVault. 

6. For me, a really, really long list of examples of filters and widgets 
would go a long way in helping us learn the unique language(s) of 
TiddlyWiki. Seriously, these are languages for which there is no full 
grammar textbook and the number of native speakers are limited. Even when I 
know what I want to do and get the general idea of what a widget or list 
filter is for, I have trouble writing [tag[tags]tagged[!is]!all[sort]] so 
that it works like I see it in my imagination. For TiddlyWiki classic I 
constantly returned to Abego Extensions because it had a long list of 
possible forEachFilter examples. Seeing and comparing the examples was how 
I learned to use it. But with TW5 there still aren't enough examples out 
there, so I have to fiddle and fiddle and finally get on the Google group 
and just ask. So a long list of representative examples would go a long way 
toward reducing our frustration and yours.

Hope these comments are encouraging and helpful. Blessings to you and to 
everyone working on these issues.

Dave


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[tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[PMario]

On Friday, November 21, 2014 1:27:26 PM UTC+1, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> Hence my proposal for a new feature moratorium. It's a simple way to 
> ensure that my attention stays focussed on the really important things for 
> the next few weeks.
>

OK. +1 
... as long as also every other non programming and programming community 
member contributes to the documentation improvement. 

There is a lot of work, which can be done. eg:  

 - New Translations with a stand alone translators/index.html TW (upcoming 
5.1.5), that can be used to create translations, without any developer 
voodoo
 - existing languages are: English, German, Danish, Greek, French, 
Italian, Japanese, Russian, Chinese (traditional and simplified)
 - improvements / feedback is also possible for the existing 
translations. 

 - With 5.1.5. it will be possible to export tiddlers in different formats.
- So it's possible to edit content with TW. - export it - and send it 
to a developer (if jeremy is ok with this workflow)
- The format that works best for contributors and developers has yet to 
be specified. 

 - For those who have a github account or are able and willing to create 
one:
 - see: http://tiddlywiki.com/#Improving%20TiddlyWiki%20Documentation  
... it isn't that hard to use it.
 - you can't destroy something, so just play with it, get up to speed 
and contribute.

 - At the time of writing the TiddlyWiki project at github 
https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5 has 910 Stars. 
 - That's ok, but it could be much much better. #1 has 31.700+
 - The number of Stars and Forks at github are an indicator, how 
prominent an open source project is. 
 - *So everyone who has a github account ... click the damned button!!!*
 - If you don't want to use github to contribute but push the project a 
little bit, create an account and 
  *click the damned button and carefully need the next 2 points :) 
!!!*

 - For those who can't afford the time but some money there is the "Inside 
TiddlyWiki: The Missing Manual" IndieGoGo project 
 
from Eric. 

 - For those who can afford the time and some money there is the "Inside 
TiddlyWiki: The Missing Manual" IndieGoGo project 
 
from Eric :)

So there is no excuse, not helping us!

Just my 3 cents.
have fun!
mario

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Re: [tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Alex Hough]

My thoughts:

I thought the criticism was more than an bit unfair.
It's for other members of the community to contribute to efforts according
to their will and skills.

To me it signalled a requirement for the wider community of non-coders to
organise itself a bit more.

I think there are people who would give time to organising things and these
people could focus on that freeing up those who code to get on with coding.
The new features are what makes the project exciting - documentation is
IMHO pretty good.

The reality is that for any of us who are on the journey into TiddlyWiki is
that some of the concept are difficult to grasp: its not that the
documentation is not there - its just hard stuff that reqires thinking
about.

I think it's important not to be over influenced by one critic. It's the
only recent case of a complaint - i was very surprised.

best wishes

Alex

On 21 November 2014 12:54, Tobias Beer  wrote:

> +1
>
> Whatever boosts your productivity and focus, Jeremy.
> Definitely advisable slow down a little from time to time and do some
> housekeeping before the next round.
>
> If there are any new feature requests, they'll end up on the pile anyways.
>
> Perhaps there's a way to display a sticky above the github issues.
>
> Best wishes, Tobias.
>
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[tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Tobias Beer]

+1

Whatever boosts your productivity and focus, Jeremy.
Definitely advisable slow down a little from time to time and do some 
housekeeping before the next round.

If there are any new feature requests, they'll end up on the pile anyways.

Perhaps there's a way to display a sticky above the github issues.

Best wishes, Tobias.

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[tw] Re: [TW5] New Feature Moratorium

[Stephan Hradek]

+1

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